Expensive cable test :lol:

[Blueflash]

I have acquired a length of Audionote AN-Vx cable and fitted a pair of Neutrik silver plated XLR`s.

My normal cable is the Klotz 5000.

So for a bit of fun, I would like to know .... What difference will they make ... or not ? Has anyone else tried cables of a similar vein ?

Oh yes, they were a pain to solder as the individual strands are Polyethylene coated. 450ºC solder pot sorted them...

[walpurgis]

Audio Note cables are pretty damn good. Mind you, their top of the range stuff has eyewatering prices.

[Barry]

I have acquired a length of Audionote AN-Vx cable and fitted a pair of Neutrik silver plated XLR`s.

My normal cable is the Klotz 5000.

So for a bit of fun, I would like to know .... What difference will they make ... or not ? Has anyone else tried cables of a similar vein ?

Oh yes, they were a pain to solder as the individual strands are Polyethylene coated. 450ºC solder pot sorted them...

Since you made them, why don't you tell us if they sound different? Do the two have balanced-line construction?

[loveoscar]

My thoughts exactly Barry, lets get the op to give us a review. Pressure on. :lol:

[Sovereign]

Very impressive DDDAC there Blueflash, that's a considerable investment there.

[Blueflash]

At the moment I have done some alterations to the Dac so I am keeping the klotz cables to allow time for it to settle down otherwise I could be led astray by the Dac settling down instead of evaluating the cable.

I have had a CD playing on repeat for about a week now so I will have a good listening session today to re acquaint myself with the Dac`s sound, then I will try the AN cable.

I won`t just plug them in and send a CD through for a week, I will start with them "cold" and see if I can track any changes over time.

The cable will go between the Dac and Preamp so are not very long but I hope it will be long enough to alter the sound.

Mean while I am working on another DDDAC stack with the Tent powered boards ....:mental:

[Blueflash]

Hi Barry,

I am running all balanced interconnects, but the AN cable is between CD player and Preamp and not very long.

[Blueflash]

Hi Sovereign

It`s a cracking Dac and responds well to power supply upgrades and tighter tolerance components but after building the tent powered
stack I better leave it alone and do some serious listening ....

[RMutt]

I thought it was accepted wisdom that there is little to no difference between balanced XLR cables. Have you found differences before?

[bumpy]

I ran Audionote ANV interconnects for about 25-30 years and bought them at a time when Peter Qvortrop was just introducing silver cables to the UK. They were very expensive and were a once in a lifetime purchase.

They shrugged off all competition I tried over that intervening period, until I heard the SW1X silver interconnects. The ANV cables went on E Bay and sold for more than I paid for them, hence financing the purchase of the SW1X cables.

As I understand it, the Audionote cable is a Litz configuration and therefore has higher impedance. This is probably a factor in the relative performance of the two manufacturers cables.

[Blueflash]

I thought it was accepted wisdom that there is little to no difference between balanced XLR cables. Have you found differences before?

I have noticed the difference between Van Damme quad core against the double core. The double core was slightly better on echo trailing away and crisper percussion but I did have to listen out for it.
The Klotz cables are my reference now, they seemed to be the ones that let me sit there and listen to the music without me pondering on what I could do to improve the sound even more.

My problem is that there are some good live venues in Hereford and I want that at home. Impossible task I know but it is an interesting journey to try.

[Gazjam]

I thought it was accepted wisdom that there is little to no difference between balanced XLR cables. Have you found differences before?

My experience?
Not at all Andrew. (albeit digital hookup to Dac XLR)

Was looking for the best connection between my Transporter and Dac, tried 'em all and a £20 Bluejeans AES/XLR cable bettered all the other connection I tried.
So far so good, but what about different XLR cables?

Tried 2 different cables at different price points and yup, they were different and better.
Shows that different cables can sound different at the very least.

[Yomanze]

Analogue XLRs are so fit for purpose that the differences between professionally made ones are negligible. It's because it's the right connection for the job, UNLIKE RCA. Gaz, you seem to hear a difference in absolutely everything. :D

[Gazjam]

These were digital XLRs Neil :D
All with completely different cable geometries too.

Just call it as I see (hear) it!
Happily my cable journey is almost over.

[RMutt]

I have a few sets of XLR cables including some I've made myself. I can't say I have noticed any difference in sound using them. I do have the option of balanced AES into my DAC so may give that a go. Gazjam, are you saying AES bettered co-axial etc or just that the Bluejeans one was the best AES type cable?

[Gazjam]

Hi Andrew,

Wanted to find the best digital hookup from my Transporter to the Dac, so I could say Job Done and forget all about it.
Spent some time and a lot of patience to find it!

AES was the best sounding output against the other output methods to the Dac.
This was using the "basic" Bluejeans XLR cable.
Glass optical was a close second, that was using a really good one (medical grade tolerances 'n such)
http://www.lifatec.com/toslink2.html
Still not as good as XLR though.

But..

the Bluejeans was bettered by a DH Labs D110 XLR
http://www.silversonic.com/docs/products/D110.html
Noticeably better than the Bluejeans, but could live with both tbh.

I'm a frequent visitor to the Computer Audiophile forum and read a thread where someone was asking about the best sounding XLR digital cable.
The usual "its just 1's and 0's" trolling crowd were there of course, but a few guys offered good opinions, one of whom was an American mastering engineer (and well known).
He suggested the DH Labs, but if you want better go for one from a Canadian Company called Morrow Audio.
The Company is doing big licks at the American high end hifi shows, I looked into them and took a punt on their top flight digital XLR.
http://morrowaudio.com/audiophile-and-home-theater/digital-cables/dig4-grand-

The guy wasn't wrong...a big step up over the DH Labs and enough to make me not care about Siltech cables (uber high end) and the like.
After a few weeks I swapped back the DH Labs, glass optical, Bluejeans cable and the rest to "sanity check" what I was hearing and the sound quality just dropped off.
Job done really, wanted to know I'd found the best digital hookup to my Dac and I'd found it.

Worth noting though, this was my system with my Dac and digital transport...
As always the devils in the detail, with how the inputs are configured, isolated etc for different bits of kit, so I'd encourage anyone to try for themselves in their own system.

[RMutt]

Thanks for that Gazjam. Food for thought. I think I might just have a dabble.

[Gazjam]

If definitely worth experimenting, different cables can make a difference depending on your kit. :)

[Yomanze]

If definitely worth experimenting, different cables can make a difference depending on your kit. :)

Very true, something that makes zero difference in one setup, can make a big difference in another, especially when it comes to cranky amps & non-optimal speaker cable.

[Gazjam]

Very true, something that makes zero difference in one setup, can make a big difference in another, especially when it comes to cranky amps & non-optimal speaker cable.

Thats...one way to look at it. :)
I believe its more down to system transparency personally, but hey ho.

[RothwellAudio]

Analogue XLRs are so fit for purpose that the differences between professionally made ones are negligible. It's because it's the right connection for the job, UNLIKE RCA.

I don't think balanced connections are technically superior to single-ended at - quite the opposite in many cases. Of course I should be wary of generalising too much because there are so many different ways of designing balanced outputs and inputs, but quite often the source component is a singled-ended circuit with an extra bit tacked on to the end to generate a phase inverted signal. Then the receiving component is a single-ended circuit with an extra bit tacked on at the input just to receive the balanced signal. In a domestic setting it can be a very complicated way of replacing a meter of coax cable for no benefit at all.
In a studio or concert environment it's a different matter but I've never been convinced of the merits of balanced connections in a domestic set-up.

[Yomanze]

I agree ^^

I was specifically talking about the cables, which don't seem to have a 'sound' anywhere near like RCAs do. Having said this I have also had the luxury of comparing true balanced and RCA, in the same setup, and did prefer balanced. This is only in the context of fully balanced gear though, which ought to sound better balanced, all my gear now is single ended.

[cyclopse]

I don't think balanced connections are technically superior to single-ended at - quite the opposite in many cases. Of course I should be wary of generalising too much because there are so many different ways of designing balanced outputs and inputs, but quite often the source component is a singled-ended circuit with an extra bit tacked on to the end to generate a phase inverted signal. Then the receiving component is a single-ended circuit with an extra bit tacked on at the input just to receive the balanced signal. In a domestic setting it can be a very complicated way of replacing a meter of coax cable for no benefit at all.
In a studio or concert environment it's a different matter but I've never been convinced of the merits of balanced connections in a domestic set-up.

Isn't the RCA single ended input many decades old. Where as balanced is a moe recent application transferred over from the recording industry.

Regards

Cyclopse

[RothwellAudio]

Isn't the RCA single ended input many decades old. Where as balanced is a moe recent application transferred over from the recording industry.

Regards

Cyclopse

Yes. What does that prove?

[cyclopse]

Yes. What does that prove?

This was a frustration expressed by cable manufacturers during a RMAF seminar. Its on YouTube somewhere.

[RMutt]

Presumably the recording and professional music industry chose XLR over RCA because for their applications it was superior. Given the lengths audiophiles go to in order to have minuscule improvements in their systems if XLR isn't going to do any harm then why not take advantage of the benefits it brings to the professional music industry, however minute those benefits might be in the home setting. Hi-fi enthusiasts must be some of the few that often prefer older technology over new. Car enthusiasts might have a nostalgic interest in older engines etc. But take away the aesthetic aspects of older design( e.g. The looks of an E Type Jag)how many would say the performance of older cars was better than modern ones. I have a vision of a group of 50's television enthusiasts sagely nodding and saying how the picture is better than a modern 4K set, once its warmed up!

[RothwellAudio]

Presumably the recording and professional music industry chose XLR over RCA because for their applications it was superior. Given the lengths audiophiles go to in order to have minuscule improvements in their systems if XLR isn't going to do any harm then why not take advantage of the benefits it brings to the professional music industry, however minute those benefits might be in the home setting.

It's case of swings and roundabouts. In a studio or concert environment the cable runs can be hundreds of meters long and there can be lots and lots of other hostile equipment in the vicinity such as lighting dimmers, mobile generators, radio microphone transmitters etc. The professional's main concern is that "the show goes on", not that the absolute highest possible fidelity is attained. A domestic environment is completely different.
Study some circuit design and it will become clear that balanced ins/outs have no intrinsic superiority for fidelity.

[Spectral Morn]

At the moment I have done some alterations to the Dac so I am keeping the klotz cables to allow time for it to settle down otherwise I could be led astray by the Dac settling down instead of evaluating the cable.

I have had a CD playing on repeat for about a week now so I will have a good listening session today to re acquaint myself with the Dac`s sound, then I will try the AN cable.

I won`t just plug them in and send a CD through for a week, I will start with them "cold" and see if I can track any changes over time.

The cable will go between the Dac and Preamp so are not very long but I hope it will be long enough to alter the sound.

Mean while I am working on another DDDAC stack with the Tent powered boards ....:mental:

I hope you had the cable right way round. The grounded end goes to the pre, indicated by coloured bands around the cable near the plugs.

ANs and ANv are my go to analogue cables in my non balanced system.

[AlfaGTV]

If definitely worth experimenting, different cables can make a difference depending on your kit. :)

Thanks for the input on digital XLR Gary!
I seem to lean towards the theory that characteristic impedance affects the throughput of "digital" signal. I decided to take a punt on a dedicated reasonably priced AES/EBU from Audioquest, the Carbon.
If it makes any difference in my setup? We'll see...

For analogue transfer i seem to be in agreement with Yomanze, balanced cables seem to have a lot less impact on sound quality than single ended.
If your components are truly balanced i consistently prefer balanced connections though. Your mileage...

[09mike69]

with inter-connects ive only noticed a difference in sonics once, and that was when i swapped out a very cheap nasty one for a modestly priced belkin cable, think it was about £8. to add to that i have not tried any i/c's priced above £80 which is still considered entry level.
it was on a subwoofer, and it just seemed to "clean" the signal.
with speaker cables my perception seemed to be that, 1, silver cables sounded a tad bright, and 2, that a medium gauge bronze had the effect of smoothing out the bright-ness so to speak.
well,, that was my impression with a pair of MA bronze floorstanders. the metal dome on them could/can "pinch" a little.

[walpurgis]

I hear differences in decent interconnects and speaker cables quite distinctly.

[Reffc]

I ran Audionote ANV interconnects for about 25-30 years and bought them at a time when Peter Qvortrop was just introducing silver cables to the UK. They were very expensive and were a once in a lifetime purchase.

They shrugged off all competition I tried over that intervening period, until I heard the SW1X silver interconnects. The ANV cables went on E Bay and sold for more than I paid for them, hence financing the purchase of the SW1X cables.

As I understand it, the Audionote cable is a Litz configuration and therefore has higher impedance. This is probably a factor in the relative performance of the two manufacturers cables.

The impedance Chris is of negligible consideration for the signal chain and the Litz configuration doesn't necessarily have any effect on impedance which will be down to the overall CSA of the conductor(s) and the conductor material itself. An exceptionally high loop resistance (unlikely in the real world) of, say 1 Ohm feeding into say 10KOhm load (low for an amp which tend to be higher) will reduce output by just one thousandths of a dB which is entirely inaudible, even to a bat. Remember, they are feeding into a very high impedance at the amplifier, whose input impedance is orders of magnitude higher than the cable DC loop resistance or signal's AC reactive impedance.

Capacitance, grounding effectiveness and shielding are of greater overall importance (the latter two being an importance factor in S/N performance). The litz configuration, theoretically, reduces issues like skin effect but since this is of no consequence at audio signal frequencies, it is of little concern. The drawbacks are that the higher capacitance, combined with high source output impedance, can cause a low pass filter to be formed but this is generally only a problem for MM outputs to a phonostage where that additional capacitance may cause roll-off of the higher frequencies. A few metres of relatively high capacitance for low source impedance is of little consequence elsewhere in the audio chain.

[Blueflash]

Well, as promised I can now report my findings ....

I gave the Dac about a month for me and it to settle down which it did very nicely, still with the Klotz cables.

Then in went the AN cables. First impressions were ... they work fine, all sounded very nice as per usual but could I detect any difference ? No not yet, maybe they need more time to settle or "Burn in". So another month with the AN cable, any better yet ?

No. I could not detect any difference at all, I then swapped them around during a listening session in case I forgot the Klotz sound.

We have a live music venue in Hereford so I can compare between a live drum kit and a recording. I have found that recorded drums
seem to lose the instant attack of the stick hitting the skin or symbol and also the trailing off seems much shorter.

With a well sorted DDDAC, CD`s do capture the instant the stick hits the symbol. So I listened out for the attack and how well it trails off and also how well instruments are separated. I have a Capercaillie CD, Beautiful Wasteland which I use as a reference because it is so well recorded. Silky vocals, chair rattling bass, amazing percussion, and many ambient clues. All easily heard through the Klotz and the AN cables.

So I am sorry to say, I could not detect any differences at all, they both sound very good in my system so I will stick with the Klotz.

While I have the cables, I thought for a laugh I will stick one half between the transport and Dac. Now to do this, I had to use a BNC to RCA converter because I built the Dac and transport with BNC fittings as the signal is basically RF.

I cannot believe I am having to write this, but the improvement in all aspects of replay were definitely better ... yes it really was.

Differences between instruments much better, transient attack and trail off so much more lifelike, the depth and width of the soundstage just pull you in to listen how the musicians move around the stage.
I swapped them in and out and the difference remained.
It was the last thing I thought would make much difference, after all I did build the Dac and had it on the test bench checking out the digital and analogue sides and found the I2S signal very resilient to abuse, series resistor, series capacitor and long leads did not stop it playing, the only time it gave me trouble was loading the I2S lines with too much capacitance by trying to run too many Dac boards at once. So all the above improvements made by just a cable was almost unbelievable to me.

I guess the moral of my musings are, don't be afraid to try thing out, don't let your biases put you off otherwise you could be missing out :-)

[struth]

good advice