View Full Version : Recapping my Celestion 15XRs
After years of using and enjoying them in stock form, I've decided to bite the bullet and recap the 15XRs, currently in situ in my home-cinema system. It's testament to how 'right' Celestion got these speakers 40 years ago that I've been able to enjoy them so much without feeling the need to tweak them, which certainly wasn't the case when I first got my Tannoys...
Anyway, DarrenHW, a well-known good guy here and mate of mine is coming round on Saturday with his own 15XRs, which he's recapped with Clarity Cap ESAs, so the plan is to listen to them and compare them with my stock ones, note the sonic differences and decide if I like them enough to fit the same caps.
Plus, just to add a bit of spice to the occasion, being the tweaky geek that I am, I've purchased some Jantzen Silver/Gold Z-caps, like these:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/4NmrKw.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pl4NmrKwj)
Details here: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-silvergold-zcap.html
I like the spec of these caps and my gut feeling says they should be rather good. The plan of course will be to see if they add anything significant, sonically, over the ESAs, and if so that's what will be fitted to the crossovers of the Celestions.
So, lots of fun to be had, and results (and pics of the install) will be posted here for your collective delectation :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
01-12-2016, 10:47
The 15XRs certainly have some punch compared to most folks choices in home cinema speakers Marco. I'd imagine they give movies etc., a fair bit of 'scale'.
I occasionally watch DVD movies with the sound through the Tannoys, but it's a bit OTT. :)
Firebottle
01-12-2016, 10:51
I would have said save your money Marco but I know you've got too much ;)
Anyway the horse has bolted in this case, so it will be interesting to see if/what the differences will be.
I've found that with different manufactures Polypropylene caps it is very much dependent on where in the chain they are used, what the signal level is, and what dc bias they have across them.
It has been found that what would have been thought of as the better fit isn't at all and has been bettered by a much cheaper cap.
Just my 2p :)
The 15XRs certainly have some punch compared to most folks choices in home cinema speakers Marco. I'd imagine they give movies etc., a fair bit of 'scale'.
Absolutely mate, especially with their ABRs and a nicely integrated sub. The Yamaha does an excellent job there. Plenty of gravitas with bangs and explosions! Also, the addition of the UL6, as a centre speaker, has made everything sound richer and 'bigger'.
Musically too, in plain stereo mode, the 15XRs sound great, so I'm looking forward to hearing what the cap upgrades do :cool:
Marco.
I would have said save your money Marco but I know you've got too much ;)
Lol.. I've have you know I'm just a poor boy! And it's not even my turn for the bone at lunch this Christmas... :(
Anyway the horse has bolted in this case, so it will be interesting to see if/what the differences will be.
I've found that with different manufactures Polypropylene caps it is very much dependent on where in the chain they are used, what the signal level is, and what dc bias they have across them.
It has been found that what would have been thought of as the better fit isn't at all and has been bettered by a much cheaper cap.
Yup, and all valid observations. However, you know what I'm like, and the 'what if?' factor, if I hadn't bought some 'boutique' caps, would've been too much to bear! :eyebrows:
Also, the crossovers in my Tannoys are choc-full of such components (Duelund resistors, Clarity Cap MRs, etc), which made a huge difference over not only what was in them originally, but the Wilmslow Audio components Big Ears Audio (the dealer I bought the Tannoys from) had used to upgrade the stock crossovers, so I know what some of this 'boutique' stuff can do.
Anyway, not only my ears, but also those of Darren will be judging the results, so we'll see what happens! :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
01-12-2016, 11:50
Or you could seek out a pair of stock 15's with the better tweeter and recap them.
Arkless Electronics
01-12-2016, 13:12
Absolutely mate, especially with their ABRs and a nicely integrated sub. The Yamaha does an excellent job there. Plenty of gravitas with bangs and explosions! Also, the addition of the UL6, as a centre speaker, has made everything sound richer and 'bigger'.
Musically too, in plain stereo mode, the 15XRs sound great, so I'm looking forward to hearing what the cap upgrades do :cool:
Marco.
I've got a pair of UL6's and I rate them as much better than the 15XR's (the UL6 was quite a bit more expensive despite being smaller).... but from what I've gleaned of your own tastes I can see that you may not agree...
The UL6 is much "faster", more detailed, transparent and uncoloured but the 15XR sounds "bigger" and with more extended bass....
I converted my UL6's to bi-wireable when it was trendy and rebuilt the crossovers while at it...
loveoscar
01-12-2016, 13:22
Those Celestions certainly wouldn't be my choice to listen to music, but I guess you must find them ok for A/V use. Good luck with the mods.
DarrenHW
01-12-2016, 14:01
When did the AoS community turn into a bunch of miserable old bastards, or worse still Harry Enfield's Dave?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkZdTHmX0TQ
It's a bit of fun, the 15XR's require 1 x 4.7uF capacitor, it's a beer money experiment. Of course there are better speakers, there always are, but Marco like's them and that's all that matters. We all have different tastes, I personally agree with Jez and rate the UL series over the XR's but I'm not dismissing Marco's wishes or opinion just because it differs from mine, that's not what AoS is about.
Either way I've never heard Jantzen Silver/Gold Z-caps in a pair of Celestions and I'm looking forward to hearing the results. Did you pick up any other caps Marco, or just the Jantzens?
Subbed... Good luck with your mods Marco
Or you could seek out a pair of stock 15's with the better tweeter and recap them.
Not worth the hassle, IMO, Andy, as I can't detect anything much wrong with the tweeters in these. The overall balance is pretty much spot on, IMO. If the crossover upgrades add a little more poise and finesse to the overall musical presentation, especially in the midrange, then I'll be onto a winner :)
Marco.
I've got a pair of UL6's and I rate them as much better than the 15XR's (the UL6 was quite a bit more expensive despite being smaller).... but from what I've gleaned of your own tastes I can see that you may not agree...
Not at all, Jez. I'm simply not in a position to hold a valid opinion, as I've never heard a pair of UL6s with which to make a proper comparison, so I'll take your word for it. The single one I've got certainly excels in its role as a centre speaker in the home-cinema system. The clarity of the midrange response in particular is superb :)
The UL6 is much "faster", more detailed, transparent and uncoloured but the 15XR sounds "bigger" and with more extended bass....
I converted my UL6's to bi-wireable when it was trendy and rebuilt the crossovers while at it...
Nice one, mate. Again, I'm not really qualified to comment, although I would say that I can't detect much lack of speed and/or detail from the 15XRs. But both speakers are really from before my time.
One thing I suspect is that most people's memories (although I'm not necessarily saying yours) of these speakers would've been them used back in the day with a vinyl set-up, most likely a budget one, and most probably too a less than wonderful partnering phono stage or amp, and so overall less than ideal.
However, the 15XRs sound totally different when used in a modern context, on the end of components costing considerably more than they do (and here I'm talking about when used in my main system instead of the Tannoys), and in particular with quality digital equipment, which sounds a million miles away from some of the rather coloured and distorted vinyl set-ups they'd likely have partnered in the 70s...
Also, as front speakers in a bang up to date home-cinema system, they're remarkably capable in many ways and make most modern speakers of their size and calibre sound overtly 'spotlit', 'falsely forced' and musically broken. Therefore, if the cap upgrade adds a bit more finesse and transparency overall, I'll be a very happy bunny indeed :cool:
Marco.
Subbed... Good luck with your mods Marco
Subbed? :scratch:
Otherwise cheers, Taz :cool:
Marco.
Hi Darren,
When did the AoS community turn into a bunch of miserable old bastards, or worse still Harry Enfield's Dave?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkZdTHmX0TQ
Lol.... There are quite a few MOBs here - and fiercely proud ones, too! :eyebrows:
It's a bit of fun, the 15XR's require 1 x 4.7uF capacitor, it's a beer money experiment.
Not necessarily... the two Jentzens cost me just shy of £160 :eek: But hey, it's all in a good cause! :D
Of course there are better speakers, there always are, but Marco like's them and that's all that matters. We all have different tastes, I personally agree with Jez and rate the UL series over the XR's but I'm not dismissing Marco's wishes or opinion just because it differs from mine, that's not what AoS is about.
I'm here to be convinced of the superiority of the UL6s. One thing I'd struggle to get on with though is their 'horizontally aligned' visual footprint, which wouldn't really suit the room, and one might also struggle to find suitable stands for them.
I think you'll agree though that the 15XRs are a nice contrast to the Tannoys!
Either way I've never heard Jantzen Silver/Gold Z-caps in a pair of Celestions and I'm looking forward to hearing the results. Did you pick up any other caps Marco, or just the Jantzens?
No, I was also looking at trying some Mundorf MCap EVO Silver/Gold Oils, but decided it was just a bit silly and I needed to save some cash for Sunday's bottle of claret! :lol:;)
In any case, I'm expecting the Jantzens to be a bit special, so hopefully they'll make the job a 'done deal'. Be interesting to see what you think anyway...
Marco.
Subbed? :scratch:
Otherwise cheers, Taz :cool:
Marco.
Subbed = Subscribed to this thread ;)
Ah right, not heard of that one before! :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-12-2016, 19:54
Not at all, Jez. I'm simply not in a position to hold a valid opinion, as I've never heard a pair of UL6s with which to make a proper comparison, so I'll take your word for it. The single one I've got certainly excels in its role as a centre speaker in the home-cinema system. The clarity of the midrange response in particular is superb :)
Nice one, mate. Again, I'm not really qualified to comment, although I would say that I can't detect much lack of speed and/or detail from the 15XRs. But both speakers are really from before my time.
One thing I suspect is that most people's memories (although I'm not necessarily saying yours) of these speakers would've been them used back in the day with a vinyl set-up, most likely a budget one, and most probably too a less than wonderful partnering phono stage or amp, and so overall less than ideal.
However, the 15XRs sound totally different when used in a modern context, on the end of components costing considerably more than they do (and here I'm talking about when used in my main system instead of the Tannoys), and in particular with quality digital equipment, which sounds a million miles away from some of the rather coloured and distorted vinyl set-ups they'd likely have partnered in the 70s...
Also, as front speakers in a bang up to date home-cinema system, they're remarkably capable in many ways and make most modern speakers of their size and calibre sound overtly 'spotlit', 'falsely forced' and musically broken. Therefore, if the cap upgrade adds a bit more finesse and transparency overall, I'll be a very happy bunny indeed :cool:
Marco.
That's a good point Marco and yes the vast majority of my considerable time spent listening to 15XR's was on just such equipment when about 18... however... I heard some with better equipment a few years back, CD and Sugden pre and power, and my immediate thought was "just as I remember them"... in their defence these ones had been positioned according to WAF and so were hardly being heard at their best!
The UL6 is a very different sounding beast. I always found the 15XR's a bit of a warm and cuddly sound that was kind to poor recordings and always pretty musical but lacking transparency, detail, speed, depth... the UL6 can make a dogs dinner of poor recordings but can sound startlingly good on the right recordings that show of it's midrange transparency etc. I always thought they sounded rather bass light though. I reckon they are truly accurate from mid bass up, in a "monitor" and "modern" way with full HF extension, but that due to the lack of real bass it leaves them sounding a bit bright on some material.
I'd love to try some UL10's! I've never even seen any in the flesh so guessing not many around...
DarrenHW
01-12-2016, 20:10
Hi Darren,
Lol.... There are quite a few MOBs here - and proud ones, too! :eyebrows:
Not necessarily... the two Jentzens cost me just shy of £160 :eek: But hey, it's all in a good cause! :D
Then I take it all back (beer money :rolleyes:), your a f@cking lunatic! :)
I'm here to be convinced of the superiority of the UL6s. One thing I'd struggle to get on with though is their 'horizontally aligned' visual footprint, which wouldn't really suit the room, and one might also struggle to find suitable stands for them.
I think you'll agree though that the 15XRs are a nice contrast to the Tannoys!
I was more referring to the UL8 in comparison to the 15XR (I've not yet managed to find a pair of UL6's so don't know what they sound like:(). Although I wasn't suggesting you ditch your 15XR's just because I prefer the UL8's. I was more trying to illustrate that just because I have a different opinion to you that doesn't mean I have to put a downer on your project.
No, I was also looking at trying some Mundorf MCap EVO Silver/Gold Oils, but decided it was just a bit silly and I needed to save some cash for Sunday's bottle of claret! :lol:;)
In any case, I'm expecting the Jantzens to be a bit special, so hopefully they'll make the job a 'done deal'. Be interesting to see what you think anyway...
Marco.
I wish you hadn't said that, I'd love to hear those Mundorfs in a pair of Celestions, either way I'm looking forward to it!
That's a good point Marco and yes the vast majority of my considerable time spent listening to 15XR's was on just such equipment when about 18... however... I heard some with better equipment a few years back, CD and Sugden pre and power, and my immediate thought was "just as I remember them"... in their defence these ones had been positioned according to WAF and so were hardly being heard at their best!
Lol... Well, as you know correct set up with speakers is vital. I do strongly suspect that much of the 'tubbiness'/'warm and cuddly' sound many folks relate to with these speakers is because they were largely showing up the limitations of the partnering equipment, and fatally flawed positioning too in most rooms, as let's remember back in the 70s speaker stands were still to be invented!
So in most instances they'd have been plonked on the floor (or perhaps on a large bookshelf) and connected with bell wire, with truly dire results...
I know you're not a 'cable believer', but that stuff sounds SHITE compared with even something relatively modest, such as 79-strand, and they'd have also been fronted by some shonky T/T, fitted with a dullsville MM cartridge, neither of which would've likely been set up properly, and some piss-poor budget phono stage - and you wonder why the Celestions ended up sounding as you've described? :D
I can assure you beyond doubt that they sound *nothing* like that here (and indeed quite the opposite), as otherwise I couldn't live with them.
The UL6 is a very different sounding beast. I always found the 15XR's a bit of a warm and cuddly sound that was kind to poor recordings and always pretty musical but lacking transparency, detail, speed, depth... the UL6 can make a dogs dinner of poor recordings but can sound startlingly good on the right recordings that show of it's midrange transparency etc. I always thought they sounded rather bass light though. I reckon they are truly accurate from mid bass up, in a "monitor" and "modern" way with full HF extension, but that due to the lack of real bass it leaves them sounding a bit bright on some material.
Fair enough. I'd certainly like to hear a stereo pair, so if Darren comes across another one in a skip, he knows where to bring it! ;) I'll then give you my honest opinion. But please, don't be under the misapprehension that I like a warm and cuddly sound, 'cos nothing could be further away from the truth.
Marco.
DarrenHW
01-12-2016, 20:19
I'd love to try some UL10's! I've never even seen any in the flesh so guessing not many around...
+1! I dream of dropping on a pair of UL10's. I've fitted MD500's in my 44 cabinets, I was going to build new cabinets to incorporate ABR's and build a pair of knock off 66's but when comparing them side by side to 66's I preferred the speed of the 44's woofer arrangement.
DarrenHW
01-12-2016, 20:26
if Darren comes across another one in a skip
How very dare you! The speaker I gave you didn't come out of a skip, it was a happy eBay find! And don't give away my secrets, the tip's where I get all my best stuff! :D
walpurgis
01-12-2016, 20:28
I'd love to try some UL10's! I've never even seen any in the flesh so guessing not many around...
You are unlikely to find any Jez. The cabinets were not the best made and popped joints. The roll surround detaches from the bass cone. The mids can blow and so can the HF2000 tweeters. I scrapped mine. Still got the mint HF2000 tweeters though.
Then I take it all back (beer money :rolleyes:), your a f@cking lunatic! :)
Well, I've never been one to skimp when conducting these types of experiments, such as was shown with my Z-Foil resistor exploits, with the Goldpoint passive preamp - and the Tannoys have some nice 'bits' inside them, so it would've been rather remiss of me not to treat the Celestions similarly :eyebrows:
I was more referring to the UL8 in comparison to the 15XR (I've not yet managed to find a pair of UL6's so don't know what they sound like:().
Ah I see. No worries. You're rather more familiar with the range than I am. You know me though, I'm always up for listening to anything and trying out new things. It's the only way you learn.
Although I wasn't suggesting you ditch your 15XR's just because I prefer the UL8's. I was more trying to illustrate that just because I have a different opinion to you that doesn't mean I have to put a downer on your project.
That thought never even entered my head, mate. I do think we're quite similar though on the type of sound we like :)
I wish you hadn't said that, I'd love to hear those Mundorfs in a pair of Celestions, either way I'm looking forward to it!
Well, let's see how Saturday goes and we'll take it from there. Just make sure your soldering iron is ready for some action! :eyebrows:
Marco.
How very dare you! The speaker I gave you didn't come out of a skip, it was a happy eBay find! And don't give away my secrets, the tip's where I get all my best stuff! :D
Ah, I stand corrected then, sire... The contents of the skips around Wrexham after all are 'renowned'! :lol:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-12-2016, 20:40
You are unlikely to find any Jez. The cabinets were not the best made and popped joints. The roll surround detaches from the bass cone. The mids can blow and so can the HF2000 tweeters. I scrapped mine. Still got the mint HF2000 tweeters though.
So you never got to hear them properly with all those issues?
walpurgis
01-12-2016, 20:42
So you never got to hear them properly with all those issues?
Not for long! :)
Caps have arrived, so we're all good to go! :thumbsup:
Marco.
I have a Celestron 10.. Ooops that's a telescope not a speaker .. Close spelling though :eyebrows:
Wakefield Turntables
03-12-2016, 19:13
Well any thoughts?
Yes, busy just now. Will post some thoughts and pics later. However, safe to say it went well! ;)
Marco.
Ok, Darren visited this afternoon for a listening sesh and to install the Jantzen caps, as previously mentioned. However, the first job to do was fit a new mains lead, I'd got from Mark Grant to my Sony amp, which like most Jap gear comes complete with a piss-poor el-cheapo captive cable. The new mains lead arrived the other day, so it was time to see what it could do.
Therefore, after cutting the captive mains lead, bearing the wires and leaving a couple of inches of it hanging down, to allow easy access to the mains connection from the back of the amp, one of these little chaps was fitted:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/TFdfsE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmTFdfsEj)
...and a rather nice Mark Grant Black Series DSP 2.5 was plugged into the end of it:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/923/dN5uxE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pndN5uxEj)
I've used these cables before in my main system and know just how good they are, and here in my downstairs system/home-cinema set up they didn't disappoint either, removing a slightly 'fuzzy' and confused quality from the sonic presentation, together with the tendency for a grainy, monochromatic tonality to pervade musical proceedings - an effect I generally always hear when generic (captive) mains leads on equipment are replaced with something of greater overall quality, optimised for hi-fi purposes.
Therefore, it was nice revisiting the DSP 2.5, and once again in its latest improved guise, enjoying the increase in musicality and overall cleaning up of the sound this cable brings to the listening experience. Considering what one can pay for 'audiophile' mains cables these days, at £65 for a 1m length, this no-nonsense, 'foo-free' Mark Grant is beautifully made from all-British parts and represents a veritable bargain. It would certainly make a great Christmas present for any serious audio enthusiast! :)
Details here: https://markgrant.co.uk/mains-power/83-mark-grant-gold-plated-dsp-25-dual-screened-power-cable.html
Ok, so with the amp now able to reveal its full potential, and the Raspberry Pi at the helm streaming tunes, it was time for a listen to Darren's own 15XRs, fitted with Clarity Cap ESAs.
Substituting my stock 15XRs for the modified versions, playing Bob Dylan's 'The Man with the Long Black Coat', resulted in a clear and immediately obvious improvement in clarity, focus, vocal intelligibility, and most impressively, soundstage expansiveness, allowing the whole musical performance to 'escape' from within the confines of the cabinets, all of which the stock versions failed to deliver to anything like the same degree.
What was patently obvious after that demonstration was that there was significant mileage available in upgrading the caps in my own speakers, so even though in isolation there appeared to be little wrong with them, listening to Darren's modified 15XRs ably highlighted their deficiencies. Therefore, it was time to bring in the 'heavy squad'... Enter the Jantzens.
The crossovers with original capacitor fitted:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_7608_zpsprzbehot.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_7608_zpsprzbehot.jpg.html)
And afterwards with the Jamtzen Sliver/Gold Z-Caps:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_7610_zpsqav8is23.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_7610_zpsqav8is23.jpg.html)
So could these babies improve further on the Clarity Caps? The answer was a resounding YES!
However, not to the extent that they made the other caps sound 'broken', as once the tired 40-year old stock electrolytic caps had been replaced in my speakers, the improvements gained from changing from one set of quality polyproplene capacitors to another was much more subtle, but nevertheless still musically fundamental.
The Jantzens removed a further veiling from the sound, allowing voices and instruments to be reproduced with more purpose and 'crispness', largely due to the increase in dynamic attack, combined with a cleaner and blacker background, which allowed musical information greater projection and a palpable tangibility that increased the illusion of real musicians present in the room. An interesting by-product was that low-end response was also improved, Bass notes were now being reproduced with greater weight and extension, together with an infectious rhythmic alacrity, making rock and pop music bop along with a rather pleasing fun factor.
These little Danish beauties also imbued music with an addictive 'liquidity', which was almost valve-like in the salacious effect it had on vocals, particularly of the female variety, making the likes of Dinah Washington's 'Cry Me a River' sound smoochier and more achingly soulful than ever. In fact the Jantzens have an uncanny knack of teasing out the emotive content in music, whilst allowing full reign to detail retrieval, without it ever straying into harshness, and marrying this with and almost 'creamy' smoothness [but not in a falsely euphonic way], such as I've never heard before from a capacitor upgrade, which makes them quite special.
Recommended? You betcha... :exactly:
These caps are so good I may try some in my Tannoys and see whether they can improve on the resident Clarity Cap MRs. Now *that* will be really interesting!
The Jantzens are not exactly cheap, but still 'sanely' priced, compared with other boutique types currently available costing many times more, and so their overall 'SPPV value' is high. Couple that with the fact these caps don't appear to need 'running in' for a long period of time in order to deliver the goods (although we'll see whether things improve further over the coming days). In my opinion, they are the ideal choice for anyone looking to significantly improve their cherished vintage speakers, worthy of such 'luxury' components, or incorporate into the design of a high-end speaker building project, without spending truly 'silly money'.
For those interested the Jantzen SilverGold Z-Caps are available here from Hi-fi Collective: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-silvergold-zcap.html
Right, I'm off to listen to more music through my rejuvenated 15XRs, and then throw some quality movies at them, to see what they do there. Laters muchachos! :cool:
Marco.
its always a tense moment after a recap,to see if the new caps have made a difference,but to be honest i think you could have put silver foil in and it still would have been better than those old elcap low loss ones.
a better test would have been to put alcap caps in for peanut money which are like for like and listened then chuck the jantzens in.
Yeah I know... Couldn't be arsed with that though, so just used Darren's Clarity Caps as the initial test, which as I outlined offered a significant improvement, and then the Jantzens ably trumped those, so starting from an even inferior benchmark would've only resulted in the same outcome :)
Marco.
walpurgis
04-12-2016, 11:05
Hmm. Result then Marco. I've a pair of Tannoy crossovers to refurb. May give those caps a go.
Part timer. You should have tried all the caps used by http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html just to see if he was/is right. Pah!
Hmm. Result then Marco. I've a pair of Tannoy crossovers to refurb. May give those caps a go.
Defo recommended, Geoff. They give speakers a lovely open and 'textured' sonic presentation that's extremely satisfying and rather addictive. The proof of the pudding is I was up until 2.30am listening to music and watching movies! :)
Marco.
Part timer. You should have tried all the caps used by http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html just to see if he was/is right. Pah!
Ha - unfortunately I have a life! ;)
However, that's interesting. There are a few caps there (some Mundorfs and Duelund CAST range, for example) I was curious about how they sounded, so will have a good read of that :cool:
Marco.
I've always found that page intriguing. TBH given how good audio memory actually is I wonder how valid it is, and how the difference between personal preference and using the same caps in different systems/speakers would affect the results.
In fact, I think the "variables" are so great, his findings are probably quite ignorable. Never mind. I have some holy grail Duelands in my system so it must be good!:lol:
That might be a bit of an extreme view point, and it would seem to make sense to use his findings to draw up a shortlist of caps to try.
Btw, those contemplating trying the Jantzens should take note of this little snippet from the HFC web page:
For the best performance available, the signal should enter on their left side the outer foil (Where the 3 golden rings are printed) and the signal should leave at the other end, the inner foil.
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-silvergold-zcap.html
Darren and I weren't sure if we'd done this or not, so checked earlier, and by sheer luck had connected the caps the correct way! Anyway, thought I'd post a pic of the caps up the right way round (simply for photographic reasons):
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_7619_zpslogfaq4z.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_7619_zpslogfaq4z.jpg.html)
And in situ inside the cabs:
http://i1324.photobucket.com/albums/u606/drtwas/IMG_7624_zps69jszlw8.jpg (http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/drtwas/media/IMG_7624_zps69jszlw8.jpg.html)
:cool:
I think the next little tweak I'll do is remove the connecting plug, PCB, and hardwire everything instead direct (point-to-point) to the binding posts, including upgrading the binding posts to solid-copper WBTs, and replace the internal wiring with the same VDH stuff I used on the Tannoys, so watch this space for details of that!
Marco.
DarrenHW
04-12-2016, 18:17
So could these babies improve further on the Clarity Caps? The answer was a resounding YES!
However, not to the extent that they made the other caps sound 'broken', as once the tired 40-year old stock electrolytic caps had been replaced in my speakers, the improvements gained from changing from one set of quality polyproplene capacitors to another was much more subtle, but nevertheless still musically fundamental.
The Jantzens removed a further veiling from the sound, allowing voices and instruments to be reproduced with more purpose and 'crispness', largely due to the increase in dynamic attack, combined with a cleaner and blacker background, which allowed musical information greater projection and a palpable tangibility that increased the illusion of real musicians present in the room. An interesting by-product was that low-end response was also improved, Bass notes were now being reproduced with greater weight and extension, together with an infectious rhythmic alacrity, making rock and pop music bop along with a rather pleasing fun factor.
These little Danish beauties also imbued music with an addictive 'liquidity', which was almost valve-like in the salacious effect it had on vocals, particularly of the female variety, making the likes of Dinah Washington's 'Cry Me a River' sound smoochier and more achingly soulful than ever. In fact the Jantzens have an uncanny knack of teasing out the emotive content in music, whilst allowing full reign to detail retrieval, without it ever straying into harshness, and marrying this with and almost 'creamy' smoothness [but not in a falsely euphonic way], such as I've never heard before from a capacitor upgrade, which makes them quite special.
Recommended? You betcha... :exactly:
I can't really add any more to the above, all I really can do is agree.
I've re-capped 15XR's with Alcaps, Jantzen Cross-Caps and Clarity Cap ESA's (CC), the CC's being my clear favorite (I'm not native to Wrexham nor am I Welsh so my view is not obscured by patriotism). Straight out of the pack the Jantzen Silver/Gold Z-Caps (SGZ) were a clear improvement over the CC's. This was quite a surprise to me, I'm a true believer in burn in and expected to leave Marco's a little deflated but optimistic for what the next 100+ hours would bring, this however was not the case. Having the luxury of 2 pairs of speakers we swapped one speaker over so were able to listen to 1 CC and 1 SGZ at the same time, the difference being so obvious it was easy to tell which speaker had which caps. IMHO the SGZ's are hands down the best caps I've heard in a pair of 15XR's.
I'm looking forward to hearing what changes the rewiring et all brings.
I've re-capped 15XR's with Alcaps, Jantzen Cross-Caps and Clarity Cap ESA's (CC), the CC's being my clear favorite (I'm not native to Wrexham nor am I Welsh so my view is not obscured by patriotism).
Lol! Is that because the factory is down the road in the industrial estate? :D
Straight out of the pack the Jantzen Silver/Gold Z-Caps (SGZ) were a clear improvement over the CC's.
Yeah, I'd have to agree, and not only that, I strongly suspect that they're also better than the CC MRs, which at the time when I put them in the crossovers for the Tannoys, were their top of the range caps. I think the Jantzens produce more open and expressive mids and 'bouncier', meatier, more tuneful bass and also have a smidgen more 'sparkle' at the top-end...
This was quite a surprise to me, I'm a true believer in burn in and expected to leave Marco's a little deflated but optimistic for what the next 100+ hours would bring, this however was not the case.
Indeed, although I do think the Jantzens have opened up a little more now with use, which contributed to that huge 'walk around' soundstage you heard with The Bluesbones album (Saved by The Blues) earlier, and that killer, oh-so shmaltzy-sounding guitar intro on the track 'I Try', and especially when it appears again midway through :)
23HRDG-F62M
Love the live version too, which sounds amazing played loudly through a good system:
YEUabup4Yz4
Having the luxury of 2 pairs of speakers we swapped one speaker over so were able to listen to 1 CC and 1 SGZ at the same time, the difference being so obvious it was easy to tell which speaker had which caps. IMHO the SGZ's are hands down the best caps I've heard in a pair of 15XR's.
Yup... I'm certainly very happy with them and so have no real desire to try anything else. They have an uncanny knack of getting the balance *just* right between analysis and musicality.
I'm looking forward to hearing what changes the rewiring et all brings.
Yeah, that should be fun. I've decided that I'm going to use exactly what I did in the Tannoys, so that's Van den Hul CS-14 Hybrid, for the internal wiring: http://www.vandenhul.com/products/cables/cs-14-hybrid-halogen-free and Cardas solid-copper binding posts: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/binding_posts/cardas-ccbp-s-short-unplated-copper.html
Should be good! :cool:
Marco.
DarrenHW
04-12-2016, 19:51
Lol! Is that because the factory is down the road in the industrial estate? :D
It is, just thought I'd clarify that has nothing to do with my decision. I tried CC's in the 44's and didn't think they were the right fit so they came out, made down the road or not they weren't staying. I like them in the 15XR's whether they're made in Wales or Belgium (sorry Belgium, but you make some appalling VAG parts :confused:)
Indeed, although I do think the Jantzens have opened up a little more now with use, which contributed to that huge 'walk around' soundstage you heard with The Bluesbones album (Saved by the Blues) earlier, and that wonderful guitar solo on the track 'I Try' :)
I thought so too but then started to question my objectivity after I left, a lot changed from yesterday to today, how long had your amp been on for, how's the new mains lead burning in, different material, different volume etc... Either way they sound very good not just compared to how they did, but in their own right.
I've been listening to Bluesbones since I got home, love it! :guitar:
Yeah, that should be fun. I've decided that I'm going to use exactly what I did in the Tannoys, so that's Van den Hul CS-14 Hybrid, for the internal wiring: http://www.vandenhul.com/products/cables/cs-14-hybrid-halogen-free and Cardas solid-copper binding posts: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/binding_posts/cardas-ccbp-s-short-unplated-copper.html
Should be good! :cool:
Marco.
I look forward to hearing them after the surgery.
I thought so too but then started to question my objectivity after I left, a lot changed from yesterday to today, how long had your amp been on for, how's the new mains lead burning in, different material, different volume etc... Either way they sound very good not just compared to how they did, but in their own right.
Yeah, all good points. Volume level was the same on the amp, as I remembered the number we were listening at yesterday (34), so chose the same today when you were round. There's no question, however, that collectively the new mains lead and the cap upgrades have moved the downstairs system onto another level, both musically and when playing movies. I'm absolutely delighted! :yay:
I've been listening to Bluesbones since I got home, love it! :guitar:
Nice one. Good, aren't they? The lead singer, doing the live version of 'I Try' reminds me a bit of the guy from The Commitments, singing 'Mustang Sally'!
I look forward to hearing them after the surgery.
You'll be the first to hear them, mate :cool:
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
04-12-2016, 21:54
You cant do much really to mod the 15XR's here's a list of what I did. It might help others.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29953-FS-Modified-CELESTION-DITTON-15XR-s&highlight=celestion+ditton+15XR
You forgot to mention recapping them in your ad! ;)
Looks like you used Wilmslow Audio Supersounds in there... Has anyone, whilst modding their 15XRs, played around with the inductors?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
05-12-2016, 08:48
I think I sold them to Grant (of this very forum) in the end. I can't remember which caps I sued but can testify they did indeed improve the clarity of 15xr.
I can't remember which caps I sued but can testify they did indeed improve the clarity of 15xr.
Sued? Were they that bad?? :lol::)
I know, but the most fundamental of all the mods you'd carried out, you forgot to list! :D
That gets you the Super-Daftee+ award for 2016! :clap: :clap:
Marco.
P.S It's in the post.
fatmarley
06-12-2016, 17:08
Has anyone, whilst modding their 15XRs, played around with the inductors?
Marco.
Not in 15XRs, but I have in other speakers. I thought that male vocals sounded more real when I replaced the large, iron-core, series midbass inductor for an expensive Mundorf copper foil job. Just got to make sure you not only match the inductance, but also the DCR.
Hi Matt,
Cheers, that's interesting. Any idea, from the pics I've posted of the inductors, if I were upgrading any, which one would be best to replace first? :)
Marco.
fatmarley
07-12-2016, 06:56
Hi Marco,
The Inductor nearest the capacitor Is an air-core, so I'd leave that one alone.
You need something quite specialist to measure the Inductance and DCR accurately, I could do It In seconds but you'd need to either post one of the inductors or bring It to my house.
Another Important thing to consider Is size - An air-core or foil Inductor of the same value will be very big.
Cheers, Matt. So it's the one with the cable tie around it that's (possibly) worth changing?
Noted on the size thing, but as I'd be doing away with the PCB anyway, when hardwiring everything, the components would be re-mounted (hot-glued and cable tied) onto a piece of MDF, as I did with the crossovers in my Tannoys, and there's acres of space inside the cabs to take that, so no issues there.
The only thing would be, as you say, measuring the inductance and DCR accurately, although if that's something you'd kindly be willing to do [and thanks for that], then when the time comes I'd probably just send you one of the populated PCBs, and you could let me know what to get :)
I presume that if for some reason I still preferred the original inductor, it could simply be re-installed?
Marco.
fatmarley
07-12-2016, 18:19
Yes, the one with the cable tie Is the one to replace.
It might not cost much to replace the other inductor (non cable tied one), so may be easier for you to just buy a new pair. Some of those smaller inductors are only a few pounds each.
Can't see It being a problem If you want to reinstall the original inductor. I doubt you'd want to though.
When you're ready, send one board to me and I'll measure both inductors and you can decide what you want to do.
Looking at frequency response graphs of the 15XR I think the whole crossover could be worth upgrading because there's a bit of a peak at around 3khz to 4khz and the treble Is down a bit. I wouldn't be at all surprised If the lower ESR of those poly caps you fitted helped lift the treble to make a flatter response. Thinking about It, the peak Is over quite a narrow band of frequencies, so may not sound as bad as It looks on paper.
Hi Matt,
That's great info, thanks. If I was replacing the inductors, I'd be going for something reasonably 'nice', as I did with the caps. I like these speakers a lot, and so if necessary am not afraid to spend a bit on quality components, as I realise that technology has advanced massively in that area in the last 40 years!
What I want to guard against though is upsetting their 'voicing', and losing what I'm enjoying with them now and liked in the first place when I heard the 15XRs, and of course engaging in a protracted circular journey, trying to obtain a sound that I like. In that respect, the cap upgrade was a 'no brainer', but with the inductors it might be a different matter.
Firstly, I'll certainly be upgrading the internal wiring and binding posts, as I feel that will also be an upgrade of the 'no brainer' variety, as will hardwiring the whole shebang together. Once done, I'll listen to the results and see how the effect gained from that sonically compliments the sound of the new capacitors, and if all is well there, I'll move onto the inductors.
The key to these jobs is doing things slowly and systematically, with a clear plan of what you're trying to achieve, so that you can analyse the effect of each upgrade and make any adjustments if necessary, rather than just ripping everything out and replacing everything in one go.
With that in mind, I'll contact you in the new year and send a board to you, as discussed. Thanks again for your help :cool:
Marco.
fatmarley
08-12-2016, 06:50
The key to these jobs is doing things slowly and systematically, with a clear plan of what you're trying to achieve, so that you can analyse the effect of each upgrade and make any adjustments if necessary, rather than just ripping everything out and replacing everything in one go.
Wise plan. That's what I always try to do myself.
Here's something to read In the meantime:
Choosing the right coil PDF (http://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/choosing_the_right_coil_3.pdf)
DarrenHW
08-12-2016, 17:44
Some more reading: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm
What do you use to measure the inductors Matt?
fatmarley
08-12-2016, 18:26
What do you use to measure the inductors Matt?
I have a Smith and Larson Woofer Tester 2, a Dayton Woofer Tester 3 and a Dayton DATS V2.
Amusing treatise by mr Gravesen. Rehashing of old/common knowledge though.
Who/what would place a coil on a 1/2" thick bit of Ali..? Or even pay large for a Cap stuffed into a metal tube :eyebrows:
Measuring inductance is easier said than done, requiring Pricey measuring devices using multiple frequencies,
.. if accuracy is the goal.
walpurgis
08-12-2016, 18:43
Shame there wasn't a test of inductors in proximity to loudspeaker magnets.
DarrenHW
08-12-2016, 18:53
I have a Smith and Larson Woofer Tester 2, a Dayton Woofer Tester 3 and a Dayton DATS V2.
Nice :thumbsup:
I visited AnthonyTD today, in South Wales (as I usually do before Christmas), and used the opportunity to take the 15XRs down with me to have some Cardas CCBP-S solid-copper binding posts fitted, like these, which are a favourite of mine and also feature on my Copper valve amp:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/E71Ysz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmE71Yszj)
...to upgrade from the cheap and nasty stock ones, which when you see them up close, once they've been removed, are unbelievably crap! Things in that area have certainly moved on rather drastically, in terms of quality of design and construction.
Anyway, as well as providing a much tighter and more secure mechanical connection with the banana plugs I'm using on my Chord Sarsen speaker cable, the Cardas binding posts have noticeably tidied up the sound, removing a slight grainy and tonally thin quality, which was present before, along with an opaqueness in the mid and top-end, resulting in a sweeter, richer sound, with markedly improved resolution and detail retrieval.
Clearly, the old binding posts had been acting as a significant sonic bottleneck. I'm really quite surprised at the level of improvement the Cardas binding posts have provided, breathing new life into already superb sounding speakers, and so would wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone seeking to upgrade the terminals on their vintage speakers. For a cost of approximately £50, and with the difference they make, it'd say that they were a veritable bargain! :cool:
Marco.
look bronze, attractive thiugh and should get a good connection with it
walpurgis
15-12-2016, 00:06
They look nice Marco. Pretty expensive though. Still, it's the end result that counts.
Wakefield Turntables
15-12-2016, 09:11
I visited AnthonyTD today, in South Wales (as I usually do before Christmas), and used the opportunity to take the 15XRs down with me to have some Cardas CCBP-S solid-copper binding posts fitted, like these, which are a favourite of mine and also feature on my Copper valve amp:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/E71Ysz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmE71Yszj)
...to upgrade from the cheap and nasty stock ones, which when you see them up close, once they've been removed, are unbelievably crap! Things in that area have certainly moved on rather drastically, in terms of quality of design and construction.
Anyway, as well as providing a much tighter and more secure mechanical connection with the banana plugs I'm using on my Chord Sarsen speaker cable, the Cardas binding posts have noticeably tidied up the sound, removing a slight grainy and tonally thin quality, which was present before, along with an opaqueness in the mid and top-end, resulting in a sweeter, richer sound, with markedly improved resolution and detail retrieval.
Clearly, the old binding posts had been acting as a significant sonic bottleneck. I'm really quite surprised at the level of improvement the Cardas binding posts have provided, breathing new life into already superb sounding speakers, and so would wholeheartedly recommend them to anyone seeking to upgrade the terminals on their vintage speakers. For a cost of approximately £50, and with the difference they make, it'd say that they were a veritable bargain! :cool:
Marco.
you could have saved £50 and just hard wired the speaker cable to the xo and then port the cable through the old binding post holes.
Yeah, and then have the hassle of the cables always being attached, if I want to move the speakers... Nah, I prefer the convenience of binding posts, and the Cardas ones for me are about as good as they get, at a sane price! :cool:
I will hardwire the internals though, as it's more practical to do that.
Marco.
look bronze, attractive thiugh and should get a good connection with it
They're defo copper, mate. You do get a very good connection with them, as I know from using them in other applications. I use them with the matching Cardas copper spades on the Copper amp.
Nice thing is, when you're using spades, you can get a ring spanner around the binding posts and nip them up nice and tight, for a truly superb connection :)
Marco.
They look nice Marco. Pretty expensive though. Still, it's the end result that counts.
Yup... Honestly Geoff, I've spent many times that amount in the past on 'fancy' cables, which didn't produce anything like this level of sonic improvement! :)
For expensive, try some Furutech FT-818R: http://www.partsconnexion.com/FTECH-74291.html
Yours for $427.00 a pair!! :eek: :eek:
Marco.
walpurgis
15-12-2016, 10:14
Well. Being a tightwad, I'll stick with these:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2ekrsj6.jpg
Gold plated brass, just arrived from China at £1.45 for two sets. :)
To replace some even worse ones on a pair of Tannoys.
They're defo copper, mate. You do get a very good connection with them, as I know from using them in other applications. I use them with the matching Cardas copper spades on the Copper amp.
Nice thing is, when you're using spades, you can get a ring spanner around the binding posts and nip them up nice and tight, for a truly superb connection :)
Marco.
Sure they are, just they have a slightly bronzed sheen. Mind you bronze is mostly copper with a few additives like tin etc to make it a bit harder.
I do like an attractive socket to put my pin in :eyebrows:
Well. Being a tightwad, I'll stick with these:
http://i63.tinypic.com/2ekrsj6.jpg
Gold plated brass, just arrived from China at £1.45 for two sets. :)
To replace some even worse ones on a pair of Tannoys.
Lol... Each to their own, but having heard the sonic differences numerous times between brass and solid-copper or silver binding posts/RCA plugs/sockets, that's all I use now as a matter of course, as I value achieving maximum signal transfer and integrity (as far as is practically possible) :cool:
Marco.
Sure they are, just they have a slightly bronzed sheen. Mind you bronze is mostly copper with a few additives like tin etc to make it a bit harder.
I do like an attractive socket to put my pin in :eyebrows:
Indeed... You don't want to be dipping yer banana plug into any skanky old socket! :D
Marco.
Jac Hawk
17-12-2016, 23:41
You still got those bad boys mate:eek::eek:
Oh yes, indeedy! Good to see you checking in again, mate. Hope all is well :cool:
Marco.
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