Martin Logan - any thoughts...

[farflungstar]

I love my Cary 805c's - with treasure bottles and Psvane 845T's. They produce rich, palpable soundscapes that you can almost walk into and explore - teamed with my An-e's they are lovely - but... I really would like a little more transparency.

The Cary's are going in for a service and upgrade in February if I can bear to part with them and if I find something to take their place in their absence. This should address the transparency issue to an extent.

The An-e's are silver wired and I've considered upgrading the crossover in an attempt to up the transparency but I kind of resent spending a around a grand on boutique components for what is a very basic crossover/design. Mine are the older models, not plywood enclosures and they really are lovely and sing with the SET Cary's - but the chipwood enclosures won't stand being messed about with as whoever upgraded the internal wiring didn't do a good job removing and replacing the drivers - they're fine but a little fragile where the baskets fix to the baffle. I don't want to mess with them. New enclosures are 1100€.

As an aside I cannot understand why they are so expensive - yes they sound fantastic but I can't believe the crossover components or drive units cost more than a grand - when the speakers cost around 9k.

Anyway I'm rambling.

So, I've spotted a nice pair of ML Ascents at a decent price and from the reviews they are very transparent, spacious sounding with excellent upper extension and a well integrated bass. I've always wanted to try electrostatics and I'm sorely tempted to take a punt and snap them up.

My room isn't perfect size wise but I think it's doable with some tinkering. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience of them? Am I crazy?
Ade

[danilo]

My good friend has a Home Audio/Theater setup comprising 3 pairs of the Biggest Martin Logans.
The sound is: You are there realistic.
All Peanut gallery bleats aside. His setup is Seriously impressive.
Seriously expensive as well.
G'luck

[Firebottle]

Get them, I don't think you will be disappointed. I have heard a larger Martin Logan set up and it was very impressive.

I am a huge fan of electrostatics and planar speakers in general, if you want transparency that's what to go for :)

[jandl100]

I've heard quite a lot of ML speakers, but only ever wanted to actually own their full range CLS2z. I've had 2 pairs of those over the years. Superb in many ways, but not much to be had in the way of deep bass!
I find the hybrid ones I have heard not quite convincing. The bass cone and the mid/treble stat have sufficiently different sound signatures to bother me. Lots of people love them, though. They undoubtedly do much that is impressive and enjoyable.

So if you do go the ML hybrid route then the Ascent is the minimum size I would recommend. The ones with smaller stat panels somehow sound obviously constrained to me. Even the Ascent is borderline, imo. I once owned the small Scenario, and when asked my 1-word-review was 'constipated'. Awful things.

So yes, if you have the urge then the Ascent would be an interesting purchase. But they do need powerful amplification to get the best out of them. All MLs do. I'm not at all sure the 50wpc from your Cary will do the job with sufficient gusto and control, or are you thinking of a different amp? - I'm not quite sure from your post.

But - my goodness, it may be difficult going back to the colourations and congestion (in complex music) of your beloved AN-Es after you have heard a much more neutral and well resolved speaker in your system!

[Firebottle]

Good post Jerry.

[farflungstar]

Thanks guys - I'm aware of the possible limitations with the Cary's - but they do have significant grunt in the low end I think - they aren't wimpy in that respect but I could run a solid state to the bass and the Cary's to the panel....

The Ascents are 90db sensitivity which us just shy of the An-e's - I don't believe they are the 92db quoted, and neither do most folks (yes I know newer models are 94/98db).

I know there are some full range panels that do bass but these are toooo big for my listening room - just not enough room for them to breath.

I've looked at the larger ML's but they come in at 89db so a retrograde step I think - all older models within price range.

It's always a difficult choice here in Spain to have something shipped, most folks don't want to pay for shipping should a mistake be made and a resale be required - different within uk and driving distances. Hence my hesitation....

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[jandl100]

It's not just about sensitivity - the MLs are a bit of a bastard of a load in terms of their impedance characteristics. 50wpc gets you a lot further with AN/E than MLs of the same or similar sensitivity.

And, imo, it's not just about increased transparency when comparing ML and AN/E - it's a whole different sound world. Chalk and cheese.
It will certainly be an interesting experience.

Folks tend to love their AN/Es for their 'musicality', a term that in this context seems to mean 'I know they aren't that very realistic, but I don't care!'.

You may have gathered by now that I am not an AN/E fanboy. ;)
But I know folks with very serious hifi systems who would not choose to be without them (hopelessly compromised though they sound to me!).
We're all different. :)

[farflungstar]

I wouldn't describe the An-e as compromised, though I accept your opinion. They are exceptionally transparent throughout the midband and in my room have tons of low end, but are limited at the upper extreme - which may account for their lack of 'HiFi' sound.

There is a quick and dirty trick i could try to add some extra sparkle by reducing the adjustable tweeter resistor on the crossover board but this would change the upper midband and as I mentioned the baffles might not take another mess about. Older models used a tacky material to embed and seal the drivers and this beds into the chipwood and pulls it apart when removing the drivers - bloody ridiculous on such expensive gear. That's the reason I don't want to go the crossover upgrade route - I'm sure it would result in the need for new enclosures.

I could go the supertweeter route but at a grand for the townsend it might not work and the Logans are almost the same price.

Grrrrr

[jandl100]

AN/Es do vary wildly, ime.
In general, the more expensive they are the more coloured I find them. The range hits the sweet spot quite early, imo.
The best I have heard, and I did enjoy them, were those owned by Jake lordmortlock. They were fairly low in the range, although I can't recall the model. Sweet and open, quite detailed, fairly neutral with a soupcon of added niceness, but they did lose the plot as the music got complex and smoothed things together.
The worst AN/E I have heard were seriously expensive, all silver wired, and had a model number of a dozen or so characters with zeds and slashes in, and made male vocalists sound like a Donald Duck impersonator with a cold. :doh:
Maybe you have ones that I would like, Ade - not that you care if I would like them, I am sure! :)

Go for the ML Ascents :thumbsup: - I would be fascinated to read your opinion!

[farflungstar]

You just described mine perfectly so I guess that fits being the earlier and lowlier version.

[jandl100]

Good stuff - sublime on female vocals. :)

[User211]

I used MLs for 17 years, with Ascents for about 10 years of that.

The Cary's won't drive an Ascent. You'll need pretty serious valve amps to do it. An 80 Watt Air Tight was only good to quite loud, so I sold it. Some 80 Watt 211s did it well, though, but they can bang out a lot more than the nominal rating (up to 170 Watts) and will even drive mid sized Apogees well.

The Ascent is so good, that when I heard Summits, I didn't think they were much better. When I got home after the demo, I actually preferred the valve driven Ascents to Krell driven Summits by a margin. So I would recommend a powerful valve amp of 100 Watts plus.

Then there's the problem that the panels don't last. I never had a pair last me more than 7 years. And the ML pricing on replacements used to be a steal but now they cost serious money. This makes 2nd hand buys risky.

They are so far removed from E's, though, sonically, it beggars belief. IMHO Es positively revel when driven with 845/211 based amps. They seem to blow them wide open, and after proving that fact to a friend and long time E owner, he's now using an AN 211 based amp (Tomei).

But yeah, Es do vary and I have heard quite a few pairs, ranging from really not good to fantastic on occasions but they never sound "accurate". The reverse, in fact, and they are quite capable of making studio recordings sound live, which is crazy, but true I think.

In short, unless you want to upgrade your amps, Ascents aren't an option.

[farflungstar]

Thanks for that advice. Much to consider.....

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[southall-1998]

I'm using a pair of ''1993'' vintage Audio Note AN-J speakers. Yes, they use basic parts....Nothing posh here!

They're not very detailed, and don't blow ultra minty clean breath in your face. But they sound wonderfully musical and organic. With a slightly rich midrange.

S.

[hifinutt]

absolutely adored my martin logan speakers [summit x] in fact only today my son was reminiscing over our days with them . awesome , majestic speakers with soundstage to die for .

my wife got a little weary of the size hence they had to go

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?13-Main-Discussion-Forum

[farflungstar]

Thanks for all your opinions guys - pffff - I really don't know what to do.

My room is not perfect for electrostatics but with a re-jig, new smaller sofa and a dedicated listening chair it's doable.

My Cary's won't drive them to high levels, but I don't listen at high levels. The Cary's can handle the 2ohm impedance drop.

A change of interconnects (already done - DNM changed for Cardas Golden Presence - waiting delivery) and the addition of my new The Truth preamp - again waiting for delivery) might help with transparency as the DNMs are known to be a little rolled off.

A change of speaker cable from DNM to maybe Townsend Isolda might also help but these alone are the same price as the logans.

Servicing and upgrading the Cary's will certainly clean them up from what I've read, transparency wise - they're gobsmackingly good at everything else. This is booked for February, again almost the price of a second hand Krell or other behemoth.

The only thing I can't upgrade are the ANe's, not easily. And yes, they are sublime musically and transparent, but in the mids and upper mids/lower treble.

Basically the interconnects have already cost more than the Logan's, new speaker cables will be likewise. Hence my predicament - blow another grand on copper wires or a pair of electrostatics which might or might not work in my room.

So far I've not put a foot wrong in my upgrade path - my system is voiced perfectly all but for that little extra airiness and sparkle.

I'm sure it would be better to wait and see what changes happen when the new interconnects and preamp are in place - but the seller of the logans wants rid asap and won't hang around.

Bugger...

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[User211]

Thanks for all your opinions guys - pffff - I really don't know what to do.

My room is not perfect for electrostatics but with a re-jig, new smaller sofa and a dedicated listening chair it's doable.

My Cary's won't drive them to high levels, but I don't listen at high levels. The Cary's can handle the 2ohm impedance drop.

A change of interconnects (already done - DNM changed for Cardas Golden Presence - waiting delivery) and the addition of my new The Truth preamp - again waiting for delivery) might help with transparency as the DNMs are known to be a little rolled off.

A change of speaker cable from DNM to maybe Townsend Isolda might also help but these alone are the same price as the logans.

Servicing and upgrading the Cary's will certainly clean them up from what I've read, transparency wise - they're gobsmackingly good at everything else. This is booked for February, again almost the price of a second hand Krell or other behemoth.

The only thing I can't upgrade are the ANe's, not easily. And yes, they are sublime musically and transparent, but in the mids and upper mids/lower treble.

Basically the interconnects have already cost more than the Logan's, new speaker cables will be likewise. Hence my predicament - blow another grand on copper wires or a pair of electrostatics which might or might not work in my room.

So far I've not put a foot wrong in my upgrade path - my system is voiced perfectly all but for that little extra airiness and sparkle.

I'm sure it would be better to wait and see what changes happen when the new interconnects and preamp are in place - but the seller of the logans wants rid asap and won't hang around.

Bugger...

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Let the Logan's go 50 Watts will NOT do it. No matter how you try to convince yourself it will work well it won't.

Also, you need a good four feet from the panel to the front wall to get the Logan's to work well. Have you factored that into the equation?

[jandl100]

What sort of music is important to you, Ade?

Because of our differing tastes Justin (user211) and I can get away with quite different amp power levels on our systems (we know each other's systems well).
If I can't flex the walls and have my internal organs rearranged I'm not really that fussed (although it is fun), but that's a large proportion of the point of his system for Justin.

Even at lower levels, though, I doubt that a 50wpc SET amp will grip those ML woofers, it'll be less taut and resolved and deep than it could be.

It sounds like you have a good pair of AN/Es, I really would be very wary of "upgrading" them, as I have previously posted ime that seems to be a step back rather than forward in terms of sq realism.

Yes, DNM i/c cable is noticeably rolled off at the top. Change that sensibly and you should be going in the right direction quite significantly. If you can get hold of Atratus 3 interconnects from the now sadly defunct Epiphany Acoustics you would have a big smile on your face, but there are many other fine and suitably voiced cables around. And you don't have to spend a mint on them, you really don't. --- I hate to say it, but ime Cardas cables are a bit on the warm smooth side. I've had previous Cardas Golden Reference cables (and other cheaper Cardas), not the newer Presence, but I bet they have the same signature. But it's all relative, and they may take you suitably in the right direction.

Your thoughts on Townshend Isolda speaker cable are spot on - check out my signature below, it's what I use, and it will move your system to a brighter lit, more transparent and better resolved place. Although they might take it too far, they really are quite bright. I bought mine used for £200 a 3m pair. They come along on eBay quite often.

I deduce from your comment agreeing with me that the AN/E rather lose it as the music gets complex, that it doesn't really bother you. Perhaps due to your music choices not going much in that direction? I'm not sure there's much to be done to really sort that with any AN/E, although a grippier amp would take you some of the way. But I don't think they will ever resolve complex strands in the way that the Ascents would.
But assuming you are OK with that kind of limitation then ... My reccie is to stay with the Es as they are now, and place them in a more suitable 'system infrastructure' context. One step at a time! - you seem to be rushing at the problem! :)

[User211]

Just a few more points...

Ascents are a massive bargain and giving mine away for the "market" price of £950 odd at the time broke my heart a bit. The guy that got them not only got a pair with panels in great condition (2 years old so recently replaced), he also bought my Descent a year or two later.

He then heard my Duettas and went on a mission to try and build his own planar magnetics, but that is another story (TBH I'm not sure how far he got with that - not very far is my guess:D).

I toyed with the idea of Cary's quite seriously, as they do make models based on 211 that have sufficient power. But 50 Watts will not only have difficulty with the woofers, as Jerry says, but also the panel. And you will hear that easily as the amps clips trying to drive them. Things getting a little rough around the edges in the mids is the first sign, together with less treble extension that you would expect. Then everything will just break up obviously as you try and drive them loud.

And that's another point. They don't shine at low volume, and really only work well when cranked up to good volume - maybe 80DB plus and they start to come into their own. They can sound very vague and wishy washy at low volume.

For a 2nd hand buy, the first sign of panel trouble I always found is lack of treble extension. On one channel may go before the other does, but then both panels need replacing to get them to sound balanced as the frigging things change over time. They are fragile things at best. Ripples in the mylar are another check point to watch out for.

The reason I lived with them for so long is that I loved the resolving power of the ESL panels in the lower mids to treble. The imaging is impressive too as the curvelinear panel and dipole nature of the panel chucks the sound around quite a bit. But consequently the sweet spot is tiny. Literally you almost need your head in a vice to be in it. The larger the panel the less of a problem it is, though, and both the CLX and Neolith do not suffer to anywhere near the extent the smaller models do in this regard. The Neolith is the most immune of the lot to this negative aspect.

Why not send the AN/Es back to Audio Note, or phone up Paul at RFC? I'd go for the later to see what he thinks first.

Part of the reason AN/Es sound as they do is the front baffle. It is designed to resonate in sympathy with the bass unit, and you will feel it move substantially when you crank the volume i.e. it acts as a passive bass radiator. This gives them a warm bass tone at the cost of true definition, I think.

Otherwise, just get something else if you fancy a change and want to keep those fabulous Cary's.

[User211]

http://www.martinlogan.com/products/ascent

Power handling 20-400 Watts? Well, they can handle 20 Watts, but they WILL NOT WORK with it. Ignore it. It is extreme BS.

[farflungstar]

Thanks guys - in sticking with the An-e's and tweaking lol

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[User211]

Thanks guys - in sticking with the An-e's and tweaking lol

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Very wise:)

[farflungstar]

Ahhhh - the light dawns...
So I figured I'd take the tweeters out of the ANe's and check connections.

The previous owner had upgraded the internal cabling to the top line SPX silver cable. The 47 strands are individually coated in varnish which has to be removed before soldering. That was okay - but....

Right channel live 1 strand connected, the rest broken. Left channel 6 strands connected. WTF.

Recut, varnish removed, resoldered - hey presto!

More air and upper sparkle! And saved a grand.


Or maybe I'm imagining it lol.



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[User211]

Well done. It is amazing how easy things can be if you have the courage to poke around!

[farflungstar]

Yes. And it solved a slight drop in level with the right Tweeter compared to the left which I've been blaming on my hearing!!!
Ade

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[Firebottle]

Excellent result, well done :thumbsup:

[hifinutt]

Let the Logan's go 50 Watts will NOT do it. No matter how you try to convince yourself it will work well it won't.

Also, you need a good four feet from the panel to the front wall to get the Logan's to work well. Have you factored that into the equation?

now I always listen carefully to what you say however I had my logans about a foot and a half from rear wall and they sounded awesome . yes they might have been even better away but in a domestic environment its not always possible . my room is 17 x13

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1040535_zpsfs3blqak.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/phil125/media/P1040535_zpsfs3blqak.jpg.html)

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg160/phil125/P1040537_zpsvyaboawj.jpg (http://s247.photobucket.com/user/phil125/media/P1040537_zpsvyaboawj.jpg.html)

[User211]

The absorbers you have there helped I'm sure... that's why they are there I expect. I'm sure if you had more space further out would have been better, though.

I had mine around 3.5 feet from the wall as I had the luxury of some space to play with. General consensus is bring them out into the room - if you can.

[cyclopse]

The absorbers you have there helped I'm sure... that's why they are there I expect. I'm sure if you had more space further out would have been better, though.

I had mine around 3.5 feet from the wall as I had the luxury of some space to play with. General consensus is bring them out into the room - if you can.

Justin, can you make some PM space.

[User211]

Should be good now Steve...

[hifinutt]

The absorbers you have there helped I'm sure... that's why they are there I expect. I'm sure if you had more space further out would have been better, though.

I had mine around 3.5 feet from the wall as I had the luxury of some space to play with. General consensus is bring them out into the room - if you can.

yes indeed they did help . I do miss them but the verity audio speakers are special too