View Full Version : Is there science behind this?
57charles
23-11-2016, 14:24
Has anyone heard of or used IsoClean CS 128 cable stabiliser?
Clive197
23-11-2016, 14:42
I think that it comes under the heading 'Fairy Dust'
RothwellAudio
23-11-2016, 14:49
You're talking about these things, right?
http://www.isocleanpower.com/product_19.htm
It says it's non magnetic and non ferrous. So is my carpet.
Arkless Electronics
23-11-2016, 14:58
Wanna buy some magic beans? :D
RothwellAudio
23-11-2016, 15:11
Wanna buy some magic beans? :D
Are they cryogenically treated?
Arkless Electronics
23-11-2016, 15:22
Are they cryogenically treated?
On a full moon, of course... and blessed by Russ Andrews
Organically, comes out "the other end" so to speak!
Audio Al
23-11-2016, 15:26
Hold on chaps , They do remove something
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Money from your bank account :)
killie99
23-11-2016, 15:42
£120 each, I'll have a dozen thank you very much. Do you just need 1 per cable or can you put on as many as you like depending on your financial status?
Think the op,s answer should be, we have now heard of them. No one though has, it appears, tried them....nor likely to.
Clifford.T Ward
23-11-2016, 15:47
There have been lots of these scams ..I remember "speaker cable supports" They held cables off the floor making an audable difference to the sound of your speakers......or so they claimed after emptying your bank account!!!!!
walpurgis
23-11-2016, 15:52
Something for the affluent and gullible I'd say.
(did I just hear somebody whisper Shakti? :eek:)
Gordon Steadman
23-11-2016, 17:14
In answer to the title of this thread...
"it is science, but not as we know it cap'n"
What a load of old tosh they try and sell to the gullible. Surprised to see the were open. How does snake oil stay in?.
There have been lots of these scams ..I remember "speaker cable supports" They held cables off the floor making an audable difference to the sound of your speakers......or so they claimed after emptying your bank account!!!!!
They actually seem to be getting more popular, see them a lot at shows. Especially amusing if the system using them sounds crap.
Firebottle
23-11-2016, 18:10
Especially amusing if the system using them sounds crap.
:rfl:
Just noticed the last 'claim' on the top of the unit says 'More analogue sounding'.
What if you are using a digital system/amplifier :scratch:
:rfl:
Just noticed the last 'claim' on the top of the unit says 'More analogue sounding'.
What if you are using a digital system/amplifier :scratch:
you use them the other way round of course ;)
...I smell shite....
that said?
try sticking some coffee mugs or whatever (you dont need gold plated screwed bolted together in Chinasire thingmwys) under your speaker cables, theories sound, you just might prefer it?
Summit to the theory (which snake oil chancers take advantage of unfortunately) of lifting speaker cables off the ground.
Not to do wih skin effect, more with changing the cables dialectric (You dont want it to be your carpet do you?)
Try it, 5 minutes of a wet Sunday and might actually make a difference.
Speaks more to the perception that Audio Weenies are Komplete fools.. Sad that.
Why?
If the "fools" enjoy their investment and it provides them elevated pleasure from music, then who's the proper fool? The dismissive besserwisser or the one who decides to suck it and see?
Long live free choice, and the option to act as an audio-phool!
Gordon Steadman
24-11-2016, 11:31
Why?
If the "fools" enjoy their investment and it provides them elevated pleasure from music, then who's the proper fool? The dismissive besserwisser or the one who decides to suck it and see?
Long live free choice, and the option to act as an audio-phool!
There is a major problem with having been around such a long time. In my twenties and thirties, I was always up for trying anything. After a long string of rubbish purporting to be the next big thing and much too much money spent on said rubbish, I went back to basics and just listened to the music and not the hi-fi.
Such experience tends to make one just a little cynical. If it sounds like a rubbish idea, it probably is. OK there may just be something lurking there to be discovered but I'll leave that to someone with the time and money to waste:)
As you say, if you get elevated pleasure from lifting your bits of wire off the floor or feeding them through empty boxes, go for it.
There is a major problem with having been around such a long time. In my twenties and thirties, I was always up for trying anything. After a long string of rubbish purporting to be the next big thing and much too much money spent on said rubbish, I went back to basics and just listened to the music and not the hi-fi.
Such experience tends to make one just a little cynical. If it sounds like a rubbish idea, it probably is. OK there may just be something lurking there to be discovered but I'll leave that to someone with the time and money to waste:)
...
I have no issues with that Gordon! Whether you choose to spend money on doo-dat's or a couple of new albums is entirely up to each individual.
What makes me a bit sore is the constant "i know better than thy" from either side. Some people hear improvements from cable lifters, some don't. Neither is "wrong" but it is more legit to accuse the ones hearing differences of being audio-phools...
I, on the other hand, would consider the dude that bought Dark Side Of The Moon in his ump-teenth reissue the true fool! (Thats me, btw ;) )
So, once again, being an audio-phool, or not to, is mine and yours priviledge and free choice!
Regarding the science.
I believe that a wire, transmitting a signal, performs at its optimum if the dielectric constant of the surrounding material is as low as possible. This equates to the lowest interaction with its surroundings. For all practical purposes, air has the lowest dielectric constant at about 1.0. Typical cable insulations are PVC with 3.2 and PTFE with 2.1.
The drawback of having just air alone is that short circuits will readily occur.
The aim of the cable-lifts is to divorce the cable from the carpet and introduce more air into the surroundings. But the cable is already 'polluted' by its insulation so improvements will be minimal.
RothwellAudio
24-11-2016, 13:22
What makes me a bit sore is the constant "i know better than thy" from either side. Some people hear improvements from cable lifters, some don't. Neither is "wrong"...
That sounds reasonable, but it implies that there really is no right and wrong, just opinion. That implies that all science is just opinion rather than a search for the truth.
At the risk of sounding like a luddite I'll say that there are gizmos and tweaks that make absolutely no difference at all other than creating a placebo effect. I'd put these cable lifters into that category.
That sounds reasonable, but it implies that there really is no right and wrong, just opinion. That implies that all science is just opinion rather than a search for the truth.
At the risk of sounding like a luddite I'll say that there are gizmos and tweaks that make absolutely no difference at all other than creating a placebo effect. I'd put these cable lifters into that category.
I think there are plenty of rights (and wrongs), but many are not achievable for practical considerations or cost. For instance, I believe a cable at absolute zero -273 deg C surrounded by air alone becomes a perfect conductor and would probably sound phenomenal, but its not achievable in the home.
I guess that what most cable manufacturers try to be is to get as close to this as they can, using a whole range of conductors, insulation types and orientations. Some make considerable improvement over bell wire and kettle mains connectors, but cost of materials and R&D don't come cheap.
I guess some fail badly so caveat emptor, but its necessary to avoid tarring everyone with the same brush.
Gordon Steadman
24-11-2016, 14:22
I think there are plenty of rights (and wrongs), but many are not achievable for practical considerations or cost. For instance, I believe a cable at absolute zero -273 deg C surrounded by air alone becomes a perfect conductor and would probably sound phenomenal, but its not achievable in the home.
I guess that what most cable manufacturers try to be is to get as close to this as they can, using a whole range of conductors, insulation types and orientations. Some make considerable improvement over bell wire and kettle mains connectors, but cost of materials and R&D don't come cheap.
I guess some fail badly so caveat emptor, but its necessary to avoid tarring everyone with the same brush.
Thats the bit that I disagree with. What does considerable mean? I remember sitting in front of a £60,000 system and the salesman changed a lead and suggested that the difference was night and day and if I couldn't hear it there must be something wrong with my ears. I complained about his ancestors and walked out having heard no damned difference whatsoever. I was in the market for a system of that cost at the time - sad how times change.
Night and day is, in my ever so humble opinion, bollocks. Some differences may well be apparent but if they are improvements, that lies in the ears of the listener. I hear subtle differences between speaker cables and slightly less ie. negligible differences between mains cables and interconnects - correction...no difference in mains cables at all..
Do I believe it's possible that I'm wrong? Yes of course but in 50 years I have never experienced anything that improved the quality of the music I listen to apart from properly designed electronics and speakers.
I reckon that if there is a night and day difference, it wasn't hi-fi in the first place.
Thats the bit that I disagree with. What does considerable mean? I remember sitting in front of a £60,000 system and the salesman changed a lead and suggested that the difference was night and day and if I couldn't hear it there must be something wrong with my ears. I complained about his ancestors and walked out having heard no damned difference whatsoever. I was in the market for a system of that cost at the time - sad how times change.
Night and day is, in my ever so humble opinion, bollocks. Some differences may well be apparent but if they are improvements, that lies in the ears of the listener. I hear subtle differences between speaker cables and slightly less ie. negligible differences between mains cables and interconnects - correction...no difference in mains cables at all..
Do I believe it's possible that I'm wrong? Yes of course but in 50 years I have never experienced anything that improved the quality of the music I listen to apart from properly designed electronics and speakers.
I reckon that if there is a night and day difference, it wasn't hi-fi in the first place.
I don't think you will ever find that I have spoken of night and day differences - that's salesman's talk. Nobody can ever quantify what considerable improvement means. For me, my decision on any component or cabling is based on 'are the improvements in SQ worth the money I am being asked to spend?'. If the answer is no, its easy to walk away.
The irony is that sometimes putting a single expensive cable (typically silver) in a system, may make that system sound worse, as the added insight of that new cable may expose weaknesses elsewhere. Its a listening process that requires patience not a hurried audition in a dealership.
Arkless Electronics
24-11-2016, 15:06
That sounds reasonable, but it implies that there really is no right and wrong, just opinion. That implies that all science is just opinion rather than a search for the truth.
At the risk of sounding like a luddite I'll say that there are gizmos and tweaks that make absolutely no difference at all other than creating a placebo effect. I'd put these cable lifters into that category.
I fully agree and in fact would put it a LOT stronger than that... but I'm barred from doing so apparently:eek:
That sounds reasonable, but it implies that there really is no right and wrong, just opinion. That implies that all science is just opinion rather than a search for the truth.
At the risk of sounding like a luddite I'll say that there are gizmos and tweaks that make absolutely no difference at all other than creating a placebo effect. I'd put these cable lifters into that category.
As long as we are talking about percieved sound quality there are no science available, as far as i know, that can readily quantify "improvement" or a scale of "fidelity" for that matter?
Yes, we can measure a cables impedance, resistance, conductance and inductance and all sorts of properties. Which particular property affects my perception of its sound quality (or rather, impact on sound quality)? Yours?
To me, it seems wise to try it if fits the bill! Hopefully i'll get wiser too! ;)
And believe me, i do agree that most expensive tweaks are dubious!
Whether someone is prepared to pay dearly for them, placebo or not, is however not for me to pass judgement on.
Does it really matter if the tweak is placebo? "If the glove fits"...
Regards Mike
walpurgis
24-11-2016, 15:42
Perhaps some are imagining, that they are not imagining perceived 'improvements'!
Perhaps some are imagining, that they are not imagining perceived 'improvements'!
No doubt you need an open mind, and honesty. Ive heard many that quite frankly all sounded the same, but some have been much better...one or two, much worse. I used to think it all bunkum but know now it isnt. Doesnt bother me if some dont agree as its their loss
Gordon Steadman
24-11-2016, 16:07
No doubt you need an open mind, and honesty. Ive heard many that quite frankly all sounded the same, but some have been much better...one or two, much worse. I used to think it all bunkum but know now it isnt. Doesnt bother me if some dont agree as its their loss
Nope, only if they believe it to be the case so it can't be my loss as I think its 97.5% bunkum:)
Ali Tait
24-11-2016, 16:14
That sounds reasonable, but it implies that there really is no right and wrong, just opinion. That implies that all science is just opinion rather than a search for the truth.
At the risk of sounding like a luddite I'll say that there are gizmos and tweaks that make absolutely no difference at all other than creating a placebo effect. I'd put these cable lifters into that category.
Yes agreed, however if some people buy these or items like these and are happy that they hear improvements, who are we to gainsay them?
I don't need them, because I built an anti gravity generator in my room, so everything floats in free space. You haven't heard soaring highs until your amp is floating above your head.
....and nice deep lows on a brown out
walpurgis
24-11-2016, 17:46
While you're about it, you may wish to try these: http://www.russandrews.com/russ-andrews-13a-fuse/
Ali Tait
24-11-2016, 17:50
Lots on here who swear fuses make a difference.
Don't be such a cheapskate! RA sell a 'much better' fuse for £25!
(I wonder if they're directional?)
walpurgis
24-11-2016, 17:58
Lots on here who swear fuses make a difference.
I expect some of them also believe the 9/11 was staged conspiracy theory.
I fully agree and in fact would put it a LOT stronger than that... but I'm barred from doing so apparently:eek:
Not just you, everyone. This is, ultimately, a subjectivist site. Meaning people are allowed to talk about the differences that anything, including mains cables and cable lifters have made to their system without having the discussion closed down by people suggesting they can't make a difference due to science.
Now this thread in particular specifically asks if there is any science behind a particular product so a short or long answer that is essentially 'no' is fine providing it is not accompanied by any insulting or derogatory comments.
If the thread were titled 'My new cable lifters are a significant upgrade' then any comments along the lines of 'no they are not' would not be appropriate.
walpurgis
24-11-2016, 18:00
If you have a spare £700 knocking about, here's an 'upgrade for you: http://www.russandrews.com/russ-andrews-clarity-pro-upgrade-power-supply-euro/
If you have a spare £700 knocking about, here's an 'upgrade for you: http://www.russandrews.com/russ-andrews-clarity-pro-upgrade-power-supply-euro/
Brilliant! That's what we need: a device that actively creates and radiates an electromagnetic field, which somehow miraculously interacts favourably with your audio electronics!
At least you get a 60 day trial period.
Some more audio enhancement gizmos that defy scientific explanation as to their efficacy (or not as the case may be), yours for a mere snip: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Walker-Audio-Black-Diamond-Crystals-for-Phono-Cartridges-/231973246258?hash=item3602aed532:g:pNAAAOSwT6pVpWk b
walpurgis
26-11-2016, 12:43
Interesting. But does it work? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SID-Sound-Improvement-Disc-SID-Model-15-For-Meridian-Rega-Etc-/391465272179?hash=item5b25260373:g:0UQAAOxyx0JTjkF C
Interesting. But does it work? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SID-Sound-Improvement-Disc-SID-Model-15-For-Meridian-Rega-Etc-/391465272179?hash=item5b25260373:g:0UQAAOxyx0JTjkF C
If it does work then it doesn't work in the way they describe it, which is total cobblers. I wouldn't get my hopes up.
And SID is not 'Sound Improving Disc' but 'Space Intruder Detector', as any fule kno. Gerry Anderson will be spinning in his grave.
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