View Full Version : 2:20 Am and Donald's winning..
123 to 97...needs 270 to win.
Oh dear.
brian2957
09-11-2016, 03:35
3.35 Clinton 122 Trump168
Hey! I'm wearing My Donald button :-)
Tough choice in truth .. the Big Mouth OR the Horrid Woman.
A definite hinterland versus the urban sophisticates divide. Likely a knee jerk reaction to 8 years of the utterly Useless Obamarama reign.
Hope he wins and actually implements even a fraction of what he babbled about.
Besides the Donald's wife looks a Helluvalot better than "Bill" would... even in drag.. ewww.
244-215 and Trump looks to have another 30 votes from Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. The whole world is affected by this as yet again the Americans vote for a dangerous madman.
244-215 and Trump looks to have another 30 votes from Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. The whole world is affected by this as yet again the Americans vote for a dangerous madman.
:rolleyes:
G'aun yersell Donnie [emoji1]
Spectral Morn
09-11-2016, 07:58
Trump elected :(:(. Will he have Clinton thrown in jail, speech seems conciliatory. America will be very disappointed I fear, I hope the rest of the world survives.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 08:30
The one good thing that is clear to me, if Trump wins, he will [hopefuly] break the chain of coruption that has been cripling America for decades!!!
He's far from perfect, but given the alternative...
For me it was all very telling of the state of American politics, that it came down to these two very diffrent, but to many, unsavoury candidates.
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 09:54
So Trump is in. He may be brash, but he's no fool. Somehow, I feel more comfortable with the idea of him having the reigns than the sinister and devious establishment sweetheart Clinton.
Early days yet. It may be a disaster or it could be good.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 10:04
+1
So Trump is in. He may be brash, but he's no fool. Somehow, I feel more comfortable with the idea of him having the reigns than the sinister and devious establishment sweetheart Clinton.
Early days yet. It may be a disaster or it could be good.
So Trump is in. He may be brash, but he's no fool.
I would say that is exactly what he is.
God help us all in the Western world! A new reign of fear for terrorist attacks, more palpable and evil than ever, has just been born. Do what you still can, while you can, whilst the world that you know still exists....
Marco.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 10:21
:rolleyes:
God help us all in the Western world! A new reign of fear for terrorist attacks, more palpable and evil than ever, has just been born. Do what you still can, while you can, whilst the world that you know still exists....
Marco.
narabdela
09-11-2016, 10:21
I'm glad I'm old enough to have enjoyed the good years. The future ain't looking too promising.
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 10:35
We're doomed Captain Mannering. Doomed! :eek:
:rolleyes:
It's true, mate... I understand where you were coming from earlier, in terms of corruption, but the bottom line is that we've got a racist, warmongering, bigoted, morally-bereft narcissistic halfwit in charge now of the most powerful country in the world - and one with very divisive and dangerous political views, which will very likely put many of our lives at risk, in ways you can't even imagine!
Marco.
It will likely be good for Brexit. It is his idea to stay close to Britain and away from the eu i believe. Good for the us construction industry too... they now have a BIG WALL to build.
Bad for ....well pretty much everyone else i guess. Well nearly....Farage for Washington ?
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 11:16
There is hope that the elitism and massive social divide (as here), may receive some address. Not a chance with Clinton.
I'll say it with pictures.
Probably like this:
http://biff.politifake.org/image/political/1603/biff-running-biff-for-president-politics-1458357617.jpg
https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/e15/11420902_1635030920102565_1922177390_n.jpg
Hopefully not like this...
https://earofnewtdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/cqz7qeyucaavvek-small.png
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 11:52
Thats all well and good if...
YOU BELIEVE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA! ;)
Try looking at things from an alternative view, and you may just come away with a diffrent opinion, but I wont hold my breath! :)
As I said in a previous post, trump is far from perfect, but given the alternative, he's a saint, and I genuinely hope that by breaking the corupt chain that america has been bound by for decades now, that some good may come of this outcome. And its ok if you dont agree with me, as long as you accept that it works both ways. :)
It's true, mate... I understand where you were coming from earlier, in terms of corruption, but the bottom line is that we've got a racist, warmongering, bigoted, morally-bereft narcissistic halfwit in charge now of the most powerful country in the world - and one with very divisive and dangerous political views, which will very likely put many of our lives at risk, in ways you can't even imagine!
Marco.
Very good Gazjam, I particularly liked the bottom pic of Trump with what at first may look like a 'Fake America ' sign in the background !! :D
Gordon Steadman
09-11-2016, 12:23
Whatever the outcome and who knows what that will be, after listening to his acceptance speech, I am more and more astonished that anyone fell for what he has said....no, change that.....what he hasn't said. There wasn't a single word that wasn't soundbites with no real thought behind them, given with that sage nod of the head that shows that, surprised as he no doubt is by the result, he is starting to believe his own bullshit.
I believe there are some good things possible. For America to stop trying to be the world's policeman and impose what they see as the right way to live on others would help. Whilst I might agree with our common view of democracy, I don't believe in trying to convert others or accept having them trying to convert me. Basically, if in Rome etc......
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 12:30
:)
I believe there are some good things possible. For America to stop trying to be the world's policeman and impose what they see as the right way to live on others would help. Whilst I might agree with our common view of democracy, I don't believe in trying to convert others or accept having them trying to convert me. Basically, if in Rome etc......
I guess anything could happen. 1 thing the American nation have done for the world. Gave us the gospel according to Donald. It will make it into the bible if he has his way.
Will it be good for the US... PROBABLY IN SHORT TERM. For the world.... maybe yes long term.
A new reign of fear for terrorist attacks, more palpable and evil than ever, has just been born.
I'd say that terrorists are the least of our worries.
Thats all well and good if...
YOU BELIEVE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA! ;)
Would that be the mainstream media that spent all that time reporting about Hillary's emails, and swept Trump's sexual assaults, fraud, blatant lies, corrupt business practices, racism etc etc under the carpet for the past year?
Or perhaps you mean the mainstream media that has spent the past twenty years reporting on the right's accusations of Hillary's corruption and seemingly endless investigating of her "corruption" which in twenty years has actually turned up nothing concrete whatsoever?
Or is it the mainstream media that has sold us the lie that Obama has achieved nothing?
...narcissistic halfwit in charge now of the most powerful country in the world.
I think China might be having something to say about this "most powerful" label quite soon, as the Russian fleet patrols the med.
There is hope that the elitism and massive social divide (as here), may receive some address.
ROFLCOPTER.
Yeah, right. Good one Geoff!
You have all the best gags! Haha!!
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 12:57
ROFLCOPTER.
Yeah, right. Good one Geoff!
You have all the best gags! Haha!!
I did not say there will be. As I said. There is hope. But not from you it seems.
Or perhaps you mean the mainstream media that has spent the past twenty years reporting on the right's accusations of Hillary's corruption and seemingly endless investigating of her "corruption" which in twenty years has actually turned up nothing concrete whatsoever?
It turned up nothing because she deleted all the e-mails that were on her private server that she was using despite the official server being available. Why use a private server whilst knowing that was a security breach and why delete 300,000 e-mails if there was nothing to hide?
Anyway enough chicken-little-sky-falling-in nonsense. The Prez is so limited in his ability to do anything it is virtually a ceremonial position. Cool that the Simpson's predicted it. I love it when life imitates art. Shame about the progressive agenda of course. They'll be back if they can ever figure out where it all went wrong. Not holding my breath there, though.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:06
A disaster for the entire world. What with this happening in usa and brexit here I'm increasingly of the opinion that the majority of human beings are complete arseholes leaving only only maybe a third who are not! Officially endorsed by the KKK FFS:eek:
He will tear up us involvement in the global warming, and also change the us/can/mex trade treaty first. Oh yes and the healthcare bill will go promptly too. Cant have poor folk getting free health... May well withdraw from nato as well, unless he gets his way. The eu will likely have more to fear than the uk at moment
This is comparable to Brexit only in that it was an anti-establishment outcome.
Leaving the EU (if you understand what the EU actually is) is a good idea, Trump as Prez isn't a good idea.
Although neither is Clinton as Prez. If I was an American I couldn't in all conscience have voted for either of them.
It turned up nothing because she deleted all the e-mails that were on her private server that she was using despite the official server being available. Why use a private server(...)
Perhaps because Colin Powell and GWBush had done precisely the same thing?
As usual you have either misunderstood or are intentionally misrepresenting what I said. They haven't been investigating Hillary's emails for twenty years, they have been investigating her in general for everything they could think of, and probably spent half a billion doing so, and have found nothing.
Trump on the other hand is facing a rape trial, and a fraud trial...
I did not say there will be. As I said. There is hope. But not from you it seems.
I am full of hope, Geoff, I just am not so blind as to hope that a man who has based his entire life on screwing over those less rich and powerful than he is will suddenly decide to act to close the gap. I'm quite puzzled as to what it is that makes you think that is what he might try to do when one of his only concrete policies seems to be to give massive tax cuts to the rich?
I think that he is way out of his depth, and the most likely outcome is an astonishingly public meltdown.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:17
Turkeys voting for xmas yet again, just like brexit... I couldn't believe that supposedly it's the poor working class who mainly voted for him! OK only the white ones... did I mention he's a racist? So, the poor and unemployed vote for someone who as an employer pays his workforce as little as possible and who will take away their health care.... "15 minutes spent talking to the average voter is the best argument against democracy" Churchill
Off to listen to "Southern Man" Neil Young
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:21
This is comparable to Brexit only in that it was an anti-establishment outcome.
Leaving the EU (if you understand what the EU actually is) is a good idea, Trump as Prez isn't a good idea.
Although neither is Clinton as Prez. If I was an American I couldn't in all conscience have voted for either of them.
WRONG. The biggest similarity is that populist racism among the thick is the biggest driving factor in both cases!!
Leaving the EU (if you understand what the EU actually is)
Oh Guru Martin! If only we could be as wise and all understanding as thee, for we are just simple folk doomed to not see the light in Farage's eyes! How foolish of us to value our universities and our courts.
LOLS again
[emoji1] [emoji9] [emoji61] [emoji206] [emoji200] [emoji33] [emoji89] [emoji12] [emoji1] [emoji12] [emoji206] [emoji107]
After recently watching Brewsters millions, i was of a mind that a none of the above was an apt vote. However, as is always the case, the us has an awful lot going on that the average Brit for instance, knows little. I had a friend over there, who was from Yorkshire. As much as he loves living there and extols its virtues etc, he says it is a very hostile place for those who dont have much. I can only see this getting tougher for some. But, maybe he is right, and the us needs ti pull its neck in.. hell, he is right ;)
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 13:26
Well then Jez, enlighten us as to how you think the American vote should have gone,:scratch: and considering there were only two real candidates to choose from in the end. You seem to be of the opinion that all those folk that voted for Trump are some how deluded, stupid, or what ever, but maybe, just maybe could it be that the majority have finaly woken up, and seen the establishment that has been in power in the USA for decades, for what they realy are, and their vote for trump was partly a knee jerk reaction against all the coruption, and war mongering that has been rife there for far too long!
Turkeys voting for xmas yet again, just like brexit... I couldn't believe that supposedly it's the poor working class who mainly voted for him! OK only the white ones... did I mention he's a racist? So, the poor and unemployed vote for someone who as an employer pays his workforce as little as possible and who will take away their health care.... "15 minutes spent talking to the average voter is the best argument against democracy" Churchill
Off to listen to "Southern Man" Neil Young
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:30
I well remember seeing a documentary some 6 months ago about Trumps popularity in the south.... it was the most disgusting indictment of America I have ever seen! Old men boasting about how they would "drive them n****** out'a town back in the good old days", how they had them so scared that they rarely attempted to come back into the centre of town for many years... and hoping things could go back to this under trump! This is what we are up against!
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:35
Well then Jez, enlighten us as to how you think the American vote should have gone,:scratch: and considering there were only two real candidates to choose from in the end. You seem to be of the opinion that all those folk that voted for Trump are some how deluded, stupid, or what ever, but maybe, just maybe could it be that the majority have finaly woken up, and seen the establishment that has been in power in the USA for decades, for what they realy are, and their vote for trump was partly a knee jerk reaction against all the coruption, and war mongering that has been rife there for far too long!
Yes stupid, deluded and also racist, insular and bigoted. He is the MOST establishment out of the two choices! I'm also expecting him to be a warmonger.
As far as Hillary goes if she was selling crack to children she would still be an infinitely better candidate than trump!! I couldn't care less if she was lax with her emails etc when the alternative is Hitler with a stupid hair do!!
I for one welcome our new master. Hoping for a top job
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 13:46
:eek::lol::lol:
Well, I did ask I supose.:D
Yes stupid, deluded and also racist, insular and bigoted. He is the MOST establishment out of the two choices! I'm also expecting him to be a warmonger.
As far as Hillary goes if she was selling crack to children she would still be an infinitely better candidate than trump!! I couldn't care less if she was lax with her emails etc when the alternative is Hitler with a stupid hair do!!
Oh Guru Martin! If only we could be as wise and all understanding as thee, for we are just simple folk doomed to not see the light in Farage's eyes! How foolish of us to value our universities and our courts.
LOLS again
[emoji1] [emoji9] [emoji61] [emoji206] [emoji200] [emoji33] [emoji89] [emoji12] [emoji1] [emoji12] [emoji206] [emoji107]
As usual straight into the personal attacks. I suspected you would not like me offering up the obvious counter to your 'Clinton has done nothing wrong' statement. Do you even actually have a logical argument/opinion on events rather than commentators? I am becoming increasing doubtful.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 13:50
Anyone else finding the interweb really slow today or is it just the cia hacking my computer?
Yes and less of the personalising please.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 13:59
Its the Russians!:rolleyes:
Anyone else finding the interweb really slow today or is it just the cia hacking my computer?
The Black Adder
09-11-2016, 14:03
It's Trump uploading his hair.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 14:11
As usual straight into the personal attacks. I suspected you would not like me offering up the obvious counter to your 'Clinton has done nothing wrong' statement. Do you even actually have a logical argument/opinion on events rather than commentators? I am becoming increasing doubtful.
IMHO even giving a toss as to what HRC may or may not have done is akin to arguing that Hitler had to get the job 'cos the other candidate couldn't be trusted to run the railways on time!!
Spectral Morn
09-11-2016, 14:16
Folks discuss with civility. No further personal attacks or comments referencing assassination.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 14:20
Now you know thats nowhere near in the same ball park as what we are discusing here, Jez.:(
Lets be clear on one thing, there are two subjects that many of us rarely get involved with on this forum, or anywhere else in real life, and those are; Politics, and Religion, with good reason, there are no two subjects on earth that have as much power to unite or devide us as Politics and Religion, but sometimes, you have to make a stand and be counted, I Genuinely feel that is what most decent law abiding Americans did Yesterday!
IMHO even giving a toss as to what HRC may or may not have done is akin to arguing that Hitler had to get the job 'cos the other candidate couldn't be trusted to run the railways on time!!
Leaving the EU (if you understand what the EU actually is) is a good idea
As usual straight into the personal attacks. I suspected you would not like me offering up the obvious counter to your 'Clinton has done nothing wrong' statement. Do you even actually have a logical argument/opinion on events rather than commentators? I am becoming increasing doubtful.
Martin I know there is little point but please allow me at least to defend myself.
My comment was not a personal attack but a light-hearted response to your comment "if you understand what the EU actually is" which seemed to attempt sum up the very long and tedious thread on the EU referendum into the single idea that everyone who disagreed with you in that thread is wrong, because they do not understand as well as you do what the EU is.
Not unresonably I take it as a personal insult to be told by someone that I do not understand a subject (upon which I have argued long and coherently) simply because I do not sign up to their world view, so I must refer you to the forum rules:
We welcome discussions of political matters on AoS. However:
1) Such discussions are not the place to seethe,"vent spleen" or deride those of a different political persuasion/mindset from you. Therefore, no-one here is entitled to be insulted personally, simply because they don't sign up to your 'world view'.
(...)
Marco.
You are now following that up by saying that the only arguments I have are ad hominem against you, which to anyone paying even the slightest attention to this forum would be so blatantly false that your accusation could easily be argued as a brazen ad hominem attack on me.
At the same time as doing this you are sidestepping the question implicit in my post which was "after twenty years of sustained attacks, what has Hillary been found to have done that was wrong, or criminal?"
The fact that you are sidestepping this question with a personal attack on me that accuses me of only having personal attacks as a tactic is frankly rather Kafkaesque, and I suppose I must now entertain the possibility that I will be admonished for this post, which will be deemed a personal attack on you, when in reality it is the exact opposite.
Robert
Yes stupid, deluded and also racist, insular and bigoted. He is the MOST establishment out of the two choices! I'm also expecting him to be a warmonger.
As far as Hillary goes if she was selling crack to children she would still be an infinitely better candidate than trump!! I couldn't care less if she was lax with her emails etc when the alternative is Hitler with a stupid hair do!!
No need for me to say another word. I think Jez has perfectly captured the monster that is Trump.
My warning was to everyone. If you cant discuss it without insulting members then dont. Thems the rules. As neil says you must stay within the law as well ;)
Thats all well and good if...
YOU BELIEVE THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA! ;)
Nope, mate, Nothing to do with the mainstream media, but rather my own independent research into the character of the man.
I could cite numerous examples of the kind of inhuman vermin he is, but on simply a basic social level, have a read of the following article (from start to finish, which is important), and it'll provide you with a genuine insight into what Trump is about, what he stands for and how he treats people - and why he can't be trusted on ANY level:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/26/meet-a-92-year-old-woman-whose-life-was-ruined-by-donald-trump.html
Mark my words, there'll be many 1000s more Molly Forbes being shat on (in a far more serious context) very soon, and Trump will rule America just like he does his business empire, with the same controlling immorality and lack of human decency!
Marco.
Martin I know there is little point but please allow me at least to defend myself.
My comment was not a personal attack but a light-hearted response to your comment "if you understand what the EU actually is" which seemed to attempt sum up the very long and tedious thread on the EU referendum into the single idea that everyone who disagreed with you in that thread is wrong, because they do not understand as well as you do what the EU is.
Not unresonably I take it as a personal insult to be told by someone that I do not understand a subject (upon which I have argued long and coherently) simply because I do not sign up to their world view, so I must refer you to the forum rules:
You are now following that up by saying that the only arguments I have are ad hominem against you, which to anyone paying even the slightest attention to this forum would be so blatantly false that your accusation could easily be argued as a brazen ad hominem attack on me.
At the same time as doing this you are sidestepping the question implicit in my post which was "after twenty years of sustained attacks, what has Hillary been found to have done that was wrong, or criminal?"
The fact that you are sidestepping this question with a personal attack on me that accuses me of only having personal attacks as a tactic is frankly rather Kafkaesque, and I suppose I must now entertain the possibility that I will be admonished for this post, which will be deemed a personal attack on you, when in reality it is the exact opposite.
Robert
I made a general remark about the EU which is fair comment. It is not necessary on this board to only make comments that no-one will disagree with.
You, on the other hand, made a named personal attack on me. You may not see the difference but I suspect Kafka would.
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 16:05
Anyway. Will the apprehension of some be realised? Trump certainly has more of a clue than that knuckle dragging buffoon Bush ever had. And Reagan was regarded as a clueless joke by many when he became president, but actually gained a fair bit of respect and popularity. We'll have to wait and see.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 16:09
Now you know thats nowhere near in the same ball park as what we are discusing here, Jez.:(
Lets be clear on one thing, there are two subjects that many of us rarely get involved with on this forum, or anywhere else in real life, and those are; Politics, and Religion, with good reason, there are no two subjects on earth that have as much power to unite or devide us as Politics and Religion, but sometimes, you have to make a stand and be counted, I Genuinely feel that is what most decent law abiding Americans did Yesterday!
I couldn't disagree more strongly Anthony! About the last bit anyway... personally politics and religion are amongst the subjects I most like to discuss... and yes I'm permanently getting grief for it.... but as you say sometimes you have to make a stand and be counted. That last bit I strongly agree with! Hence the vehemence of my anti trump rhetoric.
I am aghast that intelligent people like yourself and Martin have ANYTHING good to say about this monster who is openly racist, insular, pro gun carrying, bigoted, anti abortion and homophobic I am almost jaw on the floor that people I have regard for have anything good to say about him. I genuinely see him in the same light as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc.... ok he probably won't set up concentration camps for Latinos.... but there again....
If you are black, poor, gay, Latino or a whole lot of other minorities, then this is a truly dark day for you if you live in America! All the efforts of Dr Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Malcolm X possibly put back to 1955 in one day... How can you have anything positive to say about this?
Here is the Jez world view on the disgraceful "rise of the far right" we are going through at the moment. The poor and disadvantaged of the world are being more and more enabled by technology to put up a bit of a fight.... they can travel by car, boat or plane to find a better life, the internet and smart phones enable them to be informed about what they are missing out on and feed a desire to do better.
Meanwhile globalisation and the rise of countries such as China means that the poor in western countries are feeling the pinch. The wealthy elite do great as always but for the poor in western countries things are getting tougher. People in the west are increasingly having to compete against people from elsewhere for work, for promotion in work, in queues for bargains in shops, for medical care, for housing etc and they are becoming resentful that others would like a slice of the pie which they have had to themselves for many decades.
Obviously the people who now compete against them are foreign, different colour often, different culture, different religion. The "white indigenous westerner majority" are pulling up the draw bridge.... and in doing so are lowering themselves to racism, bigotry, intolerance and xenophobia against all "others", "incomers" who they see as competing for what they already have. Greed and selfishness are winning and populist demagogues such as trump and farage and other slime balls like le pen are exploiting this for their own ends.
I guess we can blame The Human Condition... but what I'm seeing is people who if I was to say to them "so you actually want "these people" to go back to dying in their thousands of malaria and diphtheria, working 16 hour days on the fields for only a bowl of rice, their children dying from starvation aged 3.... all so you can continue to run two cars, have a couple of nice holidays a year and have excellent health care ???" Would reply to me "Damn right Jez!!! Spot on! Deport the b**** bastards now and all the Polish and Latino's while yer at it!!" It's not just foreigners either of course! If you are indigenous but unemployed or disabled then you are likely to face increasing malevolence as well.
IMO their anger and hatred should be directed against the wealthy elite, the multinationals etc who caused globalisation and who profited from all the conditions that are now threatening the "white working majority". They should take it back from the wealthy elites who took it from them in the first place... But no, the elite controls the likes of "The Daily Heil" and so stirs up hatred against those most visible, with the help of the likes of farage. Poor "Abdul", "Vladimir" and "Mohammed" from the next street get all the blame, the recriminations, spat at in the street, told to go home... whilst the likes of Sir Philip Green and Mike Ashley face nothing worse than a bit of mud slinging from the press here and there. It is the likes of those two from whom we should be "taking it back", not those worse off than ourselves!
This absolutely disgusts me... this sense of entitlement... that if others have to suffer the worst living conditions in the world so that they can live in comparative luxury and safety... just cos they are white and westerners... then that's fine, great... I fear I am increasingly in the minority in giving a damn for my fellow man these days... and that ALL the above explains the rise of trump and also brexit over here
To me though it definitely does not excuse it!!!! Nor does it excuse all the people who would say "As long as I'm alright Jack then all the above is fine by me"
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 16:11
Nope, mate, Nothing to do with the mainstream media, but rather my own independent research into the character of the man.
I could cite numerous examples of the kind of inhuman vermin he is, but on simply a basic social level, have a read of the following article (from start to finish, which is important), and it'll provide you with a genuine insight into what Trump is about, what he stands for and how he treats people - and why he can't be trusted on ANY level:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/26/meet-a-92-year-old-woman-whose-life-was-ruined-by-donald-trump.html
Mark my words, there'll be many 1000s more Molly Forbes being shat on (in a far more serious context) very soon, and Trump will rule America just like he does his business empire, with the same controlling immorality and lack of human decency!
Marco.
There's things we do agree on then Marco! Well said!
Light Dependant Resistor
09-11-2016, 16:17
Just comparing the confederacy states that established in 1861 , it bears a lot of similarity to the election result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America
On March 11, 1861, the Confederate Constitution of seven state signatories – South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas – replaced the February 7 Provisional Confederate States Constitution with one stating in its preamble a desire for a "permanent federal government". Four additional slave-holding states – Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee – declared their secession and joined the Confederacy following a call by U.S. President Abraham Lincoln for troops from each state to recapture Sumter and other lost federal properties in the South. Missouri and Kentucky were represented by partisan factions from those states, while the legitimate governments of those two states retained formal adherence to the Union. Also aligned with the Confederacy were two of the "Five Civilized Tribes" located in Indian Territory and a new, but uncontrolled, Confederate Territory of Arizona. Efforts by certain factions in Maryland to secede were halted by federal imposition of martial law, while Delaware, though of divided loyalty, did not attempt it. A Unionist government in western parts of Virginia organized the new state of West Virginia, which was admitted to the Union during the war on June 20, 1863.
already unrest in California http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-10/us-protests-against-trumps-election/8011454
Trump will rule America just like he does his business empire, with the same controlling immorality and lack of human decency!.
Hopefully he should find that he can't run it like his business and that he can't just bully Congress, Senate, world leaders etc.
I made a general remark about the EU which is fair comment. .
You have been told many times by several different people on more than a couple of threads that your oft stated belief that those who disagree with you simply do not understand the subject as well as you do is insulting. To say it is fair comment makes a mockery of all of us who have disagreed with you do eloquently and at such length.
I really wish that you would stop doing it, or that perhaps Marco would pull you up on it.
Please stop doing it, Martin.
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There's things we do agree on then Marco! Well said!
Lol... I think our political views have always been pretty much in alignment. I've always been fiercely anti-establishment, pro-fairness and equality, and passionately for what's best for the common man :)
Trump is a joke, in every sense of the word. Only in America could such a diabolical cretin have been placed in such a lofty position of authority.
Marco.
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 16:20
already unrest in California http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-10/us-protests-against-trumps-election/8011454
The crowd look nearly all hispanic. So maybe not so surprising. They didn't want him.
http://www.latinorebels.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/image.jpg
http://www.latinorebels.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/image.jpg
Whatever you're trying to post, matey, ain't workin'....
Marco.
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 16:55
Image working OK here.
Ah it's working now! Wasn't about 30 secs ago...
Marco.
Lol... I think our political views have always been pretty much in alignment. I've always been fiercely anti-establishment, pro-fairness and equality, and passionately for what's best for the common man :)
Trump is a joke, in every sense of the word. Only in America could such a diabolical cretin have been placed in such a lofty position of authority.
Marco.
The choice was between two pretty awful human beings. There are no winners in this presidential election.
Indeed... Interestingly, admittedly rather morbidly, in a country the size of America, one would've hoped one could've found two less loathsome and unsuitable candidates to be the country's new president?
Why were you left with having to choose between dumb and dumber? ;)
Marco
It all makes my head spin.
Interesting responses from the Cheap seats... an Ocean away.
Simply a v slightly Right vs v slightly Left spectacle. All babbling and drama/histrionics aside
Oddly; I had a Polish emigre in my office when Obama was running for the first time.
He was absolutely overexcited about the prospect .
Babbling on incessantly about how his life wouldn't be worthwhile if Obama wasn't elected.
The small factoid that he was In Canada and couldn't vote in Canadian let alone US Elections was simply irrelevant to his precise logic.
Absolute entertainment to watch his emotional roller coaster.
PS: is the Sun still shining (albeit briefly, it is the UK after all) after your Brexit vote?
.
I am aghast that intelligent people like yourself and Martin have ANYTHING good to say about this monster "[/I]
Slow down there! When have I ever said anything good about Trump? I don't even consider him the lesser of two evils. He would never get my vote and neither would Clinton.
You have been told many times by several different people on more than a couple of threads that your oft stated belief that those who disagree with you simply do not understand the subject as well as you do is insulting. To say it is fair comment makes a mockery of all of us who have disagreed with you do eloquently and at such length.
I really wish that you would stop doing it, or that perhaps Marco would pull you up on it.
Please stop doing it, Martin.
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You're right, In future I'll follow your method and ignore the subject of debate and instead attack those I disagree with on a personal level. Attack their intelligence, education and experience and when that doesn't work I'll call on the mods to censure them.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 18:25
I have already stated, he is far from perfect, and I am aware of what he is capable of, I have done my own homework on him.
However; you dont seem to get the point I was/am trying to make, given the choice of the two candidates that were on offer at the end, he was still the less of two evils, and the good folk of America realised that, and voted acordingly!
Nope, mate, Nothing to do with the mainstream media, but rather my own independent research into the character of the man.
I could cite numerous examples of the kind of inhuman vermin he is, but on simply a basic social level, have a read of the following article (from start to finish, which is important), and it'll provide you with a genuine insight into what Trump is about, what he stands for and how he treats people - and why he can't be trusted on ANY level:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/10/26/meet-a-92-year-old-woman-whose-life-was-ruined-by-donald-trump.html
Mark my words, there'll be many 1000s more Molly Forbes being shat on (in a far more serious context) very soon, and Trump will rule America just like he does his business empire, with the same controlling immorality and lack of human decency!
Marco.
I couldn't disagree more strongly Anthony! About the last bit anyway... personally politics and religion are amongst the subjects I most like to discuss... and yes I'm permanently getting grief for it.... but as you say sometimes you have to make a stand and be counted. That last bit I strongly agree with! Hence the vehemence of my anti trump rhetoric.
I am aghast that intelligent people like yourself and Martin have ANYTHING good to say about this monster who is openly racist, insular, pro gun carrying, bigoted, anti abortion and homophobic I am almost jaw on the floor that people I have regard for have anything good to say about him. I genuinely see him in the same light as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc.... ok he probably won't set up concentration camps for Latinos.... but there again....
If you are black, poor, gay, Latino or a whole lot of other minorities, then this is a truly dark day for you if you live in America! All the efforts of Dr Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Malcolm X possibly put back to 1955 in one day... How can you have anything positive to say about this?
Here is the Jez world view on the disgraceful "rise of the far right" we are going through at the moment. The poor and disadvantaged of the world are being more and more enabled by technology to put up a bit of a fight.... they can travel by car, boat or plane to find a better life, the internet and smart phones enable them to be informed about what they are missing out on and feed a desire to do better.
Meanwhile globalisation and the rise of countries such as China means that the poor in western countries are feeling the pinch. The wealthy elite do great as always but for the poor in western countries things are getting tougher. People in the west are increasingly having to compete against people from elsewhere for work, for promotion in work, in queues for bargains in shops, for medical care, for housing etc and they are becoming resentful that others would like a slice of the pie which they have had to themselves for many decades.
Obviously the people who now compete against them are foreign, different colour often, different culture, different religion. The "white indigenous westerner majority" are pulling up the draw bridge.... and in doing so are lowering themselves to racism, bigotry, intolerance and xenophobia against all "others", "incomers" who they see as competing for what they already have. Greed and selfishness are winning and populist demagogues such as trump and farage and other slime balls like le pen are exploiting this for their own ends.
I guess we can blame The Human Condition... but what I'm seeing is people who if I was to say to them "so you actually want "these people" to go back to dying in their thousands of malaria and diphtheria, working 16 hour days on the fields for only a bowl of rice, their children dying from starvation aged 3.... all so you can continue to run two cars, have a couple of nice holidays a year and have excellent health care ???" Would reply to me "Damn right Jez!!! Spot on! Deport the b**** bastards now and all the Polish and Latino's while yer at it!!" It's not just foreigners either of course! If you are indigenous but unemployed or disabled then you are likely to face increasing malevolence as well.
IMO their anger and hatred should be directed against the wealthy elite, the multinationals etc who caused globalisation and who profited from all the conditions that are now threatening the "white working majority". They should take it back from the wealthy elites who took it from them in the first place... But no, the elite controls the likes of "The Daily Heil" and so stirs up hatred against those most visible, with the help of the likes of farage. Poor "Abdul", "Vladimir" and "Mohammed" from the next street get all the blame, the recriminations, spat at in the street, told to go home... whilst the likes of Sir Philip Green and Mike Ashley face nothing worse than a bit of mud slinging from the press here and there. It is the likes of those two from whom we should be "taking it back", not those worse off than ourselves!
This absolutely disgusts me... this sense of entitlement... that if others have to suffer the worst living conditions in the world so that they can live in comparative luxury and safety... just cos they are white and westerners... then that's fine, great... I fear I am increasingly in the minority in giving a damn for my fellow man these days... and that ALL the above explains the rise of trump and also brexit over here
To me though it definitely does not excuse it!!!! Nor does it excuse all the people who would say "As long as I'm alright Jack then all the above is fine by me"
Great post Jez
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 18:46
I was just about to say the same thing! :scratch:
My view on both of them was very dim from the start, and I have been pondering for some time how it could have come down to these two in the first place, [read my earlier posts] I just feel that he is possibly the key to breaking the chain of mainstream corruption by the powers that be who have been getting away with for decades.
If that to you is me saying nice things about Trump well...
Slow down there! When have I ever said anything good about Trump? I don't even consider him the lesser of two evils. He would never get my vote and neither would Clinton.
You're right, In future I'll follow your method and ignore the subject of debate and instead attack those I disagree with on a personal level. Attack their intelligence, education and experience and when that doesn't work I'll call on the mods to censure them.
Martin, you either have to provide concrete examples of where I have ignored the subject of debate and attacked you in the way you describe, or you really need to back off.
I have asked (close to begged actually) that you stop, and still you come throwing baseless accusations. I really don't understand what it is you would like me to say, but you don't appear to be allowing me a way out.
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 18:51
Jez,
Lets not get carried away here.
My view on both of them was very dim from the start, and I have been pondering for some time how it could have come down to these two in the first place, [read my earlier posts] I just feel that he is possibly the key to breaking the chain of mainstream corruption by the powers that be who have been getting away with it for decades.
If that to you is me saying nice things about Trump well...
And as for the rest of the stuff your going on about, I came from a poor working class background, I have friends from all cultures, and colours, I am neither a racist, nor a bigot, and I have always done what I can for my fellow man, some who know me well would even say that my main fault is that I am too soft, and that I sometimes care to much for those who don’t deserve it! So please lets try and keep this discussion on track, and not let it deviate to personal judgement, and criticism of those who have a different opinion to you.
I couldn't disagree more strongly Anthony! About the last bit anyway... personally politics and religion are amongst the subjects I most like to discuss... and yes I'm permanently getting grief for it.... but as you say sometimes you have to make a stand and be counted. That last bit I strongly agree with! Hence the vehemence of my anti trump rhetoric.
I am aghast that intelligent people like yourself and Martin have ANYTHING good to say about this monster who is openly racist, insular, pro gun carrying, bigoted, anti abortion and homophobic I am almost jaw on the floor that people I have regard for have anything good to say about him. I genuinely see him in the same light as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc.... ok he probably won't set up concentration camps for Latinos.... but there again....
If you are black, poor, gay, Latino or a whole lot of other minorities, then this is a truly dark day for you if you live in America! All the efforts of Dr Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Malcolm X possibly put back to 1955 in one day... How can you have anything positive to say about this?
Here is the Jez world view on the disgraceful "rise of the far right" we are going through at the moment. The poor and disadvantaged of the world are being more and more enabled by technology to put up a bit of a fight.... they can travel by car, boat or plane to find a better life, the internet and smart phones enable them to be informed about what they are missing out on and feed a desire to do better.
Meanwhile globalisation and the rise of countries such as China means that the poor in western countries are feeling the pinch. The wealthy elite do great as always but for the poor in western countries things are getting tougher. People in the west are increasingly having to compete against people from elsewhere for work, for promotion in work, in queues for bargains in shops, for medical care, for housing etc and they are becoming resentful that others would like a slice of the pie which they have had to themselves for many decades.
Obviously the people who now compete against them are foreign, different colour often, different culture, different religion. The "white indigenous westerner majority" are pulling up the draw bridge.... and in doing so are lowering themselves to racism, bigotry, intolerance and xenophobia against all "others", "incomers" who they see as competing for what they already have. Greed and selfishness are winning and populist demagogues such as trump and farage and other slime balls like le pen are exploiting this for their own ends.
I guess we can blame The Human Condition... but what I'm seeing is people who if I was to say to them "so you actually want "these people" to go back to dying in their thousands of malaria and diphtheria, working 16 hour days on the fields for only a bowl of rice, their children dying from starvation aged 3.... all so you can continue to run two cars, have a couple of nice holidays a year and have excellent health care ???" Would reply to me "Damn right Jez!!! Spot on! Deport the b**** bastards now and all the Polish and Latino's while yer at it!!" It's not just foreigners either of course! If you are indigenous but unemployed or disabled then you are likely to face increasing malevolence as well.
IMO their anger and hatred should be directed against the wealthy elite, the multinationals etc who caused globalisation and who profited from all the conditions that are now threatening the "white working majority". They should take it back from the wealthy elites who took it from them in the first place... But no, the elite controls the likes of "The Daily Heil" and so stirs up hatred against those most visible, with the help of the likes of farage. Poor "Abdul", "Vladimir" and "Mohammed" from the next street get all the blame, the recriminations, spat at in the street, told to go home... whilst the likes of Sir Philip Green and Mike Ashley face nothing worse than a bit of mud slinging from the press here and there. It is the likes of those two from whom we should be "taking it back", not those worse off than ourselves!
This absolutely disgusts me... this sense of entitlement... that if others have to suffer the worst living conditions in the world so that they can live in comparative luxury and safety... just cos they are white and westerners... then that's fine, great... I fear I am increasingly in the minority in giving a damn for my fellow man these days... and that ALL the above explains the rise of trump and also brexit over here
To me though it definitely does not excuse it!!!! Nor does it excuse all the people who would say "As long as I'm alright Jack then all the above is fine by me"
Has it Reduced to this?
Having to post to defend from keyboard opinions from those who claim the Moral High Ground.
Yet have NO input ...whatsoever.. into the fray?
This is real life.. adapt.
I'm liking that Mrs President is attractive :eyebrows: for a pleasant change of pace
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 19:18
I guess Anthony that you saying you consider him the least of two evils is what I was referring to!
Evil 1 = same old same old USA politics but probably a safe pair of hands from an experienced politician and ex "cabinet minister" (whatever they call that in America)
Evil 2 = a racist, homophobic, misogynist, bigot who will likely turn back human rights for minorities in the USA by 40 years and has no previous experience at world politics....
Hmmm I wonder.... how could I have possibly raised my eyebrows at you stating that evil 1 is the worst.... :rolleyes::scratch:
walpurgis
09-11-2016, 19:27
Has it Reduced to this?
Having to post to defend from keyboard opinions from those who claim the Moral High Ground.
Yet have NO input ...whatsoever.. into the fray?
This is real life.. adapt.
I'm liking that Mrs President is attractive :eyebrows: for a pleasant change of pace
I actually agree danilo.
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 19:31
International repercussions are starting... The far right education minister in Israel has basically said he's overjoyed at the trump victory cos now Israel will be able to do what ever the hell it likes to the Palestinians without fear of sanctions etc from the USA and that there is now zero possibility of them ever getting a Palestinian State!
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 19:32
Evil one is part of the long line of the establishment, they will not/cannot change, decades of the Bush, Clintons have proved that!
The American people know that, which is why they voted for someone who has never been involved in politics, someone who doesent answer to the establishment, someone who may posibly make America great again! He has given the Majority of Americans hope again, the proof is in the vote! Just like it was here on Brexit, but that's another can of worms...
I guess Anthony that you saying you consider him the least of two evils is what I was referring to!
Evil 1 = same old same old USA politics but probably a safe pair of hands from an experienced politician and ex "cabinet minister" (whatever they call that in America)
Evil 2 = a racist, homophobic, misogynist, bigot who will likely turn back human rights for minorities in the USA by 40 years and has no previous experience at world politics....
Hmmm I wonder.... how could I have possibly raised my eyebrows at you stating that evil 1 is the worst.... :rolleyes::scratch:
Evil one is part of the long line of the establishment, they will not/cannot change, decades of the Bush, Clintons have proved that!
The American people know that, which is why they voted for someone who has never been involved in politics, someone who doesent answer to the establishment, someone who may posibly make America great again! He has given the Majority of Americans hope again, the proof is in the vote! Just like it was here on Brexit, but that's another can of worms...
Err, I think you'll find Clinton won the majority vote, had this been a brexit style referendum she'd have won...:eyebrows:
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 19:39
Has it Reduced to this?
Having to post to defend from keyboard opinions from those who claim the Moral High Ground.
Yet have NO input ...whatsoever.. into the fray?
This is real life.. adapt.
I'm liking that Mrs President is attractive :eyebrows: for a pleasant change of pace
We all have a stake in this by being stuck on the same planet which is unfortunately under American domination financially and militarily. See above for early international repercussions....
As for mrs president well it's the first time the position has been occupied by a mail order bride... which says it all about her husband!
I'd obviously like to express my feelings about your endorsement of a evil racist demagogue as president but forum rules forbid it so use your imagination...
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 19:43
Trivialities Will...;)
But your right.
A...
Err, I think you'll find Clinton won the majority vote, had this been a brexit style referendum she'd have won...:eyebrows:
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 19:46
Evil one is part of the long line of the establishment, they will not/cannot change, decades of the Bush, Clintons have proved that!
The American people know that, which is why they voted for someone who has never been involved in politics, someone who doesent answer to the establishment, someone who may posibly make America great again! He has given the Majority of Americans hope again, the proof is in the vote! Just like it was here on Brexit, but that's another can of worms...
You leave me both (nearly) speechless and deeply disappointed... If the above is not an endorsement of trump then what is? And this in full awareness of what his tenure is likely to bring for blacks, Hispanics, gays, the poor, Muslims and pregnant woman wanting an abortion....
anthonyTD
09-11-2016, 19:51
I am deeply sorry you feel that way Jez,
But hopefuly' And I realy mean this, you will at a later date, after taking a step back, realise that what I and a few others here have said is perhaps not how you currently perceive things...:)
A...
You leave me both (nearly) speechless and deeply disappointed... If the above is not an endorsement of trump then what is? And this in full awareness of what his tenure is likely to bring for blacks, Hispanics, gays, the poor, Muslims and pregnant woman wanting an abortion....
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 20:25
I am deeply sorry you feel that way Jez,
But hopefuly' And I realy mean this, you will at a later date, after taking a step back, realise that what I and a few others here have said is perhaps not how you currently perceive things...:)
A...
I'm afraid if there is another meaning to perceive from your previous post then it is too far between the lines for little old me...
I agree that the establishment politics are also evil... they started all sorts of unjust wars and made millions for themselves and their mates on Wall St in the process for a start! It is this same establishment though who (eventually!) freed slaves (ok it took a civil war...), gave blacks the vote and equal rights to an education, to be allowed on buses etc, who sent troops to stop gangs of racists from physically preventing blacks entering a college in the south as late as the sixties etc etc. The rights of minorities were won in a hard, long and bloody fight. Trump speaks to and for the red necks in the deep south who are probably plotting some good old fashioned lynchings over a quart of JD as we speak! (paddle faster.. I hear banjos!). He's officially endorsed by the KKK FFS! How in the name of all that is holy can trump be the lesser of two evils????
I'm sure the trains will run on time under trump though....
Ninanina
09-11-2016, 20:31
Well if Trump is 'mates' with Nigel then he's ok by me.. :D
Also I have a huge dislike for Hillary, can't put my finger on it but I don't like her at all
Arkless Electronics
09-11-2016, 20:42
Well if Trump is 'mates' with Nigel then he's ok by me.. :D
Also I have a huge dislike for Hillary, can't put my finger on it but I don't like her at all
You no doubt consider Hitler "misunderstood" then? I'll guess you've never heard "Strange fruit" by Billie Holiday? Too busy listening to "The black and white minstrels xmas album" eh...
Ninanina
09-11-2016, 20:55
You no doubt consider Hitler "misunderstood" then? I'll guess you've never heard "Strange fruit" by Billie Holiday? Too busy listening to "The black and white minstrels xmas album" eh...
I don't think that sort of comment is really necessary is it Jez?
I have my own views but I don't attack anyone else for theirs now do I ?
Ninanina
09-11-2016, 21:00
Maybe you should read the following:
"New rules for participating in political discussions. Please READ and DIGEST!" posted by Marco
I don't think that sort of comment is really necessary is it Jez?
You were kidding about the Farage thing, right??
What Jez said above about the whole civil rights gains etc reminds me of a quote in a recent NYRB article from a remarkably accurate prediction from 1997:
I recalled a remark that the philosopher Richard Rorty made back in 1997 about “the old industrialized democracies…heading into a Weimar-like period.” Citing evidence from “many writers on socioeconomic policy,” Rorty suggested that
"members of labor unions, and unorganized unskilled workers, will sooner or later realize that their government is not even trying to prevent wages from sinking or to prevent jobs from being exported. Around the same time, they will realize that suburban white-collar workers—themselves desperately afraid of being downsized—are not going to let themselves be taxed to provide social benefits for anyone else.
At that point, something will crack. The nonsuburban electorate will decide that the system has failed and start looking around for a strongman to vote for—someone willing to assure them that, once he is elected, the smug bureaucrats, tricky lawyers, overpaid bond salesmen, and postmodernist professors will no longer be calling the shots….
One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion…. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet."
Ninanina
09-11-2016, 21:05
You were kidding about the Farage thing, right??
Absolutely not!
Spectral Morn
09-11-2016, 21:06
You no doubt consider Hitler "misunderstood" then? I'll guess you've never heard "Strange fruit" by Billie Holiday? Too busy listening to "The black and white minstrels xmas album" eh...
Jez, easy. That's a personal attack.
Ninanina
09-11-2016, 21:14
Jez, easy. That's a personal attack.
Thanks Neil as that's how I took it..
Absolutely not!
blimey!
Are you going to join him in his march on the supreme court next month?
Guys,
I'm not liking the vibe here at all. Far too much personal comment and emotions getting out of control. I don't give a fuck who's 'fault' it is, so either debate the subject from now on like respectful human beings, or the thread will be locked.
Clue: the only thing I want to see now is improved behaviour from everyone, not any back chat or excuses for what's happened. If I see any evidence of the latter it will simply be deleted.
Your move!
Marco.
Never discuss politics and religion :eyebrows:
pgarrish
09-11-2016, 21:54
It's true, mate... I understand where you were coming from earlier, in terms of corruption, but the bottom line is that we've got a racist, warmongering, bigoted, morally-bereft narcissistic halfwit in charge now of the most powerful country in the world - and one with very divisive and dangerous political views, which will very likely put many of our lives at risk, in ways you can't even imagine!
Marco.
Have we gone back in time to George Dubya ????
Trump may be blatantly racist, misogynist and xenophobic.... but the last 8 years have hardly seen things improve for blacks and the poor, despite Obama's best efforts. I suspect Clinton would do exactly what CaMoron did over here and screw all those groups whilst smiling and saying lovely things on the TV.
For me, Trump's victory and Brexit are both a big F-YOU from the lower classes to the 1%. I'll agree that the end result probably won't be very nice, but unless the establishment stop saying these people are stupid racists and ask themselves WHY normally law abiding and tolerant people voted for racism and intolerance, and actually change, then this will happen more and more. The 1% have pushed things too far and people are starting to fight back. Firstly by attempting to vote out the existing regimes, and if that doesn't start to make changes, things will escalate. America in particular is a powder keg with more blacks and minorities shot by white police than we have murders in the UK - if the force of law is actively hunting you down, the only response will be to respond with violence - and that has got worse with a black guy in the White House..... And if Trump does start to wind in the US's dabbling overseas, I see that as a good thing. The CIA in particular can be found underpinning much of the tension in the world, and the situations in Israel, Syria and eastern europe all have US interference as a major cause.
No I don't support Trump, but I am sick of people who voted brexit or Trump being branded racist thickos.
I get all that, Paul, and completely understand where you're coming from. However, the world has gone truly mad when someone like Trump is at the helm at The White House :doh:
For me, it says more about the state of American politics than anything else!
Marco.
Have we gone back in time to George Dubya ????
Trump may be blatantly racist, misogynist and xenophobic.... but the last 8 years have hardly seen things improve for blacks and the poor, despite Obama's best efforts. I suspect Clinton would do exactly what CaMoron did over here and screw all those groups whilst smiling and saying lovely things on the TV.
For me, Trump's victory and Brexit are both a big F-YOU from the lower classes to the 1%. I'll agree that the end result probably won't be very nice, but unless the establishment stop saying these people are stupid racists and ask themselves WHY normally law abiding and tolerant people voted for racism and intolerance, and actually change, then this will happen more and more. The 1% have pushed things too far and people are starting to fight back. Firstly by attempting to vote out the existing regimes, and if that doesn't start to make changes, things will escalate. America in particular is a powder keg with more blacks and minorities shot by white police than we have murders in the UK - if the force of law is actively hunting you down, the only response will be to respond with violence - and that has got worse with a black guy in the White House..... And if Trump does start to wind in the US's dabbling overseas, I see that as a good thing. The CIA in particular can be found underpinning much of the tension in the world, and the situations in Israel, Syria and eastern europe all have US interference as a major cause.
No I don't support Trump, but I am sick of people who voted brexit or Trump being branded racist thickos.
Inclined to agree with the basis of that myself. Many folk are sick of the 1 or 2% and their manipulation of laws that keep them in the shit, and often deeper in it, while they kid on its only them that care etc. anyone complaining get the race card flung at them or worse. Perhaps Trump , even though he is damaged goods, will redress things a bit, quite frankly I dont know, and no one else does yet either. I will say what HC said. time to give him a chance and see.
Light Dependant Resistor
09-11-2016, 23:33
The point is he has shown generally disrespect for almost everyone and hatred of many.
Thus he is not a leader, not worthy of wasting any further time on. To quote or find him
fascinating or somehow poised to change things, will therefore always be misled and unrewarded.
High time individuals start doing far more for themselves, outside divisional political views.
Our love of audio being a simple way to see things differently.
Infinitely Baffled
09-11-2016, 23:38
I couldn't disagree more strongly Anthony! About the last bit anyway... personally politics and religion are amongst the subjects I most like to discuss... and yes I'm permanently getting grief for it.... but as you say sometimes you have to make a stand and be counted. That last bit I strongly agree with! Hence the vehemence of my anti trump rhetoric.
I am aghast that intelligent people like yourself and Martin have ANYTHING good to say about this monster who is openly racist, insular, pro gun carrying, bigoted, anti abortion and homophobic I am almost jaw on the floor that people I have regard for have anything good to say about him. I genuinely see him in the same light as Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin etc.... ok he probably won't set up concentration camps for Latinos.... but there again....
If you are black, poor, gay, Latino or a whole lot of other minorities, then this is a truly dark day for you if you live in America! All the efforts of Dr Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Malcolm X possibly put back to 1955 in one day... How can you have anything positive to say about this?
Here is the Jez world view on the disgraceful "rise of the far right" we are going through at the moment. The poor and disadvantaged of the world are being more and more enabled by technology to put up a bit of a fight.... they can travel by car, boat or plane to find a better life, the internet and smart phones enable them to be informed about what they are missing out on and feed a desire to do better.
Meanwhile globalisation and the rise of countries such as China means that the poor in western countries are feeling the pinch. The wealthy elite do great as always but for the poor in western countries things are getting tougher. People in the west are increasingly having to compete against people from elsewhere for work, for promotion in work, in queues for bargains in shops, for medical care, for housing etc and they are becoming resentful that others would like a slice of the pie which they have had to themselves for many decades.
Obviously the people who now compete against them are foreign, different colour often, different culture, different religion. The "white indigenous westerner majority" are pulling up the draw bridge.... and in doing so are lowering themselves to racism, bigotry, intolerance and xenophobia against all "others", "incomers" who they see as competing for what they already have. Greed and selfishness are winning and populist demagogues such as trump and farage and other slime balls like le pen are exploiting this for their own ends.
I guess we can blame The Human Condition... but what I'm seeing is people who if I was to say to them "so you actually want "these people" to go back to dying in their thousands of malaria and diphtheria, working 16 hour days on the fields for only a bowl of rice, their children dying from starvation aged 3.... all so you can continue to run two cars, have a couple of nice holidays a year and have excellent health care ???" Would reply to me "Damn right Jez!!! Spot on! Deport the b**** bastards now and all the Polish and Latino's while yer at it!!" It's not just foreigners either of course! If you are indigenous but unemployed or disabled then you are likely to face increasing malevolence as well.
IMO their anger and hatred should be directed against the wealthy elite, the multinationals etc who caused globalisation and who profited from all the conditions that are now threatening the "white working majority". They should take it back from the wealthy elites who took it from them in the first place... But no, the elite controls the likes of "The Daily Heil" and so stirs up hatred against those most visible, with the help of the likes of farage. Poor "Abdul", "Vladimir" and "Mohammed" from the next street get all the blame, the recriminations, spat at in the street, told to go home... whilst the likes of Sir Philip Green and Mike Ashley face nothing worse than a bit of mud slinging from the press here and there. It is the likes of those two from whom we should be "taking it back", not those worse off than ourselves!
This absolutely disgusts me... this sense of entitlement... that if others have to suffer the worst living conditions in the world so that they can live in comparative luxury and safety... just cos they are white and westerners... then that's fine, great... I fear I am increasingly in the minority in giving a damn for my fellow man these days... and that ALL the above explains the rise of trump and also brexit over here
To me though it definitely does not excuse it!!!! Nor does it excuse all the people who would say "As long as I'm alright Jack then all the above is fine by me"
Says it all! :clapclapclap:
IB
Well if Trump is 'mates' with Nigel then he's ok by me.. :D
Also I have a huge dislike for Hillary, can't put my finger on it but I don't like her at all
I must be losing my marbles: I misread this and somehow missed out the word "is" from the first sentence, puts a whole different spin on things! Vice President elect Pence would be looking to castrate the pair of them!
just wondering on who's head would the rug end up;)
You no doubt consider Hitler "misunderstood" then? I'll guess you've never heard "Strange fruit" by Billie Holiday? Too busy listening to "The black and white minstrels xmas album" eh...
Jez,
Had you as one one of life's "misunderstood good guys" then you said that...
Cheap shot and your better than that mate.
Bevs one of us, a good guy (and to her credit) one of the few females on AOS.
Dont want to paint her as an easy Target...but some folk might and hadn't thought it would be you.
You always present an individual viewpoint which is to be applauded, but this seems beneath you.
just sayin!
Gaz
(who read the shit you got on Wigwam back in the day and thought you deserved better...then you only went and did what folk did to you?)
Seriously man?
Evil 1 = same old same old USA politics but probably a safe pair of hands from an experienced politician and ex "cabinet minister" (whatever they call that in America)
Actually, Evil 1 couldn't handle her "cabinet minister" post and sent the most sensitive of memos out over an open channel (from a network that is air gapped and just the act of transferring the email to a public network is a high crime in and of itself) while at the same time accepting incredibly large donations from shady governments like Qatar and Morocco after she signed an agreement with the state department promising she wound not.
The reason we ended up here was the Democratic Party leadership was hell bent on giving Evil 1 "her turn" at an election run using a broken "Super Delegate" system. She was not the choice of the people and had very little chance of being elected in a democracy, go figure.
Arkless Electronics
10-11-2016, 02:28
Actually, Evil 1 couldn't handle her "cabinet minister" post and sent the most sensitive of memos out over an open channel (from a network that is air gapped and just the act of transferring the email to a public network is a high crime in and of itself) while at the same time accepting incredibly large donations from shady governments like Qatar and Morocco after she signed an agreement with the state department promising she wound not.
The reason we ended up here was the Democratic Party leadership was hell bent on giving Evil 1 "her turn" at an election run using a broken "Super Delegate" system. She was not the choice of the people and had very little chance of being elected in a democracy, go figure.
I'm afraid I couldn't care less mate.... "clerical errors of a stupid and risky nature" Versus "Mussolini is now in charge of the worlds biggest nuclear arsenal and hates everyone who looks different from the mirror he looks into 1000 times day" nah... no contest.
Arkless Electronics
10-11-2016, 02:30
If you do nothing else then read this folks: http://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2016/11/election-donald-j-trump-4
It deserves the Pulitzer prise and puts everything I was attempting to get across so much better than my attempts... and delves much deeper into the mire...
I'm afraid I couldn't care less mate.... "clerical errors of a stupid and risky nature" Versus "Mussolini is now in charge of the worlds biggest nuclear arsenal and hates everyone who looks different from the mirror he looks into 1000 times day" nah... no contest.
Accepting millions of dollars from a corrupt government behind almost 100% of ISIS funding and directly responsible for four major terrorist attacks on western soil is horrid and not a 'clerical error'. Accepting these donations when also serving as the Secretary of State is outright criminal.
jandl100
10-11-2016, 07:51
As I read it, the presidential election came down to politics not personalities, dodgy and/or repugnant though the latter may be on both sides.
The American heartland is fundamentally 'conservative' and there is also a strong anti-establishment mentality.
They were offered a non-establishment option, which was also in line with their general right wing conservatism. It's not something that comes along very often, and they took the opportunity to go for it.
I can understand that, even if I deeply and strongly disagree with it!
About 49% didn't vote and of those that did Hilary got marginally more votes. Yet she lost.
The Black Adder
11-11-2016, 10:52
This sums it all up... enjoy!
GLG9g7BcjKs&
Nailed it.
Finally alone, Donald Trump stares anxiously into the mirror...
“Al? Al, it’s me, Sam! You gotta help me!
I can’t leap Al!
anthonyTD
11-11-2016, 12:31
:thumbsup:
This sums it all up... enjoy!
GLG9g7BcjKs&
No jdea who he is but he is spot on.
Arkless Electronics
11-11-2016, 14:03
I strongly disagree with him! The most base, vile instincts of the right MUST be challenged, ridiculed and shat upon. ALWAYS and at every opportunity.
FFS what's the alternative? Start debating with the scum about "hey, yeah maybe we should be racists, lets ban homosexuality and abortion for a start to give the right some succur and appeasement"
Remember "this piece of paper guarantees peace in our time"?.... appeasement won't work with far right scum. They need destroying not understanding!
"First they came for the blacks and I did nothing cos I wasn't black... then they came for the gays and I did nothing cos I was heterosexual..... then they came for the Muslims"..... to paraphrase Pastor Niemoller
What next FFS? try negotiating with and understanding paedophiles??? Come up with some compromise where they're allowed to fiddle with two kids a year?
anthonyTD
11-11-2016, 15:10
And you wonder why folk wont engage in conversation with you!!! :(
Come on mate, discuss and debate things you feel strongly about by all-means, but lets not take things to the extreme.:rolleyes:
I strongly disagree with him! The most base, vile instincts of the right MUST be challenged, ridiculed and shat upon. ALWAYS and at every opportunity.
FFS what's the alternative? Start debating with the scum about "hey, yeah maybe we should be racists, lets ban homosexuality and abortion for a start to give the right some succur and appeasement"
Remember "this piece of paper guarantees peace in our time"?.... appeasement won't work with far right scum. They need destroying not understanding!
"First they came for the blacks and I did nothing cos I wasn't black... then they came for the gays and I did nothing cos I was heterosexual..... then they came for the Muslims"..... to paraphrase Pastor Niemoller
What next FFS? try negotiating with and understanding paedophiles??? Come up with some compromise where they're allowed to fiddle with two kids a year?
walpurgis
11-11-2016, 15:36
Like it or not. Far left and far right views have a right to be held. It's called democracy. Anything else becomes censorship at the least or a police state at worst.
Arkless Electronics
11-11-2016, 15:42
]And you wonder why folk wont engage in conversation with you!!![/B] :(
Come on mate, discuss and debate things you feel strongly about by all-means, but lets not take things to the extreme.:rolleyes:
News to me....
Just because this was a democratic vote doesn't make it right! Remember that Hitler was democratically elected by the German people in a fair election!
I heard the other day that 30% of British people regard themselves as racist! Now even if it was 90% that wouldn't make it OK.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.
Light Dependant Resistor
11-11-2016, 15:51
Protests continue: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-11/trump-protests-wreak-havoc-on-us-streets/8019522
as do growing numbers seeking residence outside the US
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-elections/us-election-americans-leave-usa-donald-trump-election-new-zealand-australia-canada-a7408886.html
anthonyTD
11-11-2016, 15:53
Jez,
You have stated it yourself, :doh: and the last but one post you made is an excelent example of why sometimes folk side step your rantings!:(The Edmund Burke quote, I totaly agree with.
News to me....
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke.
Your well out of order Jez. You cant go around calling folk scum and calling for them to be destroyed. Its attitudes like yours that gave us brexit and trump. Everyone is ooo exept you and folk who agree with you. Well i dont agree with either side,
Arkless Electronics
11-11-2016, 16:08
Like it or not. Far left and far right views have a right to be held. It's called democracy. Anything else becomes censorship at the least or a police state at worst.
You won't be surprised that I disagree.... The far left argues for equality, the people owning the means of production etc whereas the far right argues for a Nazi state and all that entails.... I do not agree that the far right have a right to hold their opinions. To do so would be to legitimise the likes of The Holocaust, to say "hey lets listen to their plans for concentration camps with an open mind and see if they have something to bring to the table".
After WW2 and all the British and Allied lives lost fighting the far right it truly disgusts and horrifies me to see people today looking to far right ideas to somehow solve their own problems today. Unfortunately it seems to be built in to the human psyche to have a fear/hatred of "others" and demagogues understand this only to well. Appealing to the basest instincts of the largely uneducated masses, as farage and trump have, is not acceptable or legitimate!
Better a "benign police state" than a popularly elected 4th Reich!
Like it or not. Far left and far right views have a right to be held. .
Well, I'm not sure about that. IME people who have extreme views about anything usually have mental health issues or learning difficulties.
There is also a tendency to assume that someone who believes in the 'right-wing' principle of a small state and low taxation also automatically subscribes to racism and other forms of intolerance, despite the fact that history shows us that such intolerances have been supported by both ends of the political spectrum.
Personally I don't believe that tribal battle cries advance the argument one bit, they simply create division were none existed before. Makes people feel good though.
As for the good pastor, as a realist I would paraphrase him as: 'First they came for me and no-one said a bloody thing.'
Arkless Electronics
11-11-2016, 16:18
Your well out of order Jez. You cant go around calling folk scum and calling for them to be destroyed. Its attitudes like yours that gave us brexit and trump. Everyone is ooo exept you and folk who agree with you. Well i dont agree with either side,
Even if they are Hitler loving racists? Do you think there should be dialogue with the National Front? That in areas with large BNP presence and a 75% pro brexit vote they should have a bye law allowing them to put "No Blacks, No Irish, No dogs" on hotel doors once again 'cos that's the majority view in that area?
I stand by everything I said. For the sake of a quiet life and forum peace I'll pull out of this thread now... There's little I could add to what I've already said anyway.
anthonyTD
11-11-2016, 16:44
The one good thing that I hope has come out of all this;
People all around the world are finally waking up to what is actually going on, consumerism, and "modern technology toys" I fear are not working their magic' as well as those in real positions of power would possibly have liked, as in; distractions designed to keep us all occupied with trivial rubbish, while they [the powers that be] continue authorising, and carrying out atrocities, and suffering around the world.
Agreed Anthony. People from all walks of life are fed up of all the lies, from both sides. Since the war its been false promises after the same, while the establishment line their pockets. People that work hard and pay taxes have a right to let their feelings known without being castigated for it. ...and we are not talking neonazis here...just ordinary folk
Ninanina
11-11-2016, 16:58
Blimey this thread really has gone to pot... :doh:
I don't really have any strong feelings for or against Trump, to be honest I don't know enough about the subject to comment, but that's who the Americans voted for so that should be respected
For what it's worth I predict Trump will be 'popped off'
Light Dependant Resistor
11-11-2016, 17:13
Blimey this thread really has gone to pot... :doh:
I don't really have any strong feelings for or against Trump, to be honest I don't know enough about the subject to comment, but that's who the Americans voted for so that should be respected
For what it's worth I predict Trump will be 'popped off'
Secession in the US appears possible, but requires massive effort on the part of those attempting it - as one state breaking away, Promisingly it could now occur
in smaller areas, as has been nearly done in the past . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States
There was an attempt by Staten Island to break away from New York City in the late 1980s and early 1990s, leading to a 1993 referendum, in which 65% voted to secede. Implementation was blocked in the State Assembly by assertions that the state's constitution required a "home rule message" from New York City.[75]
The San Fernando Valley lost a vote to separate from Los Angeles in 2002 but has seen increased attention to its infrastructure needs.[citation needed] Despite the majority (55%) of the valley within the L.A. city limits voting for secession, the city council unanimously voted to block the partition of the valley north of Mulholland Drive. If the San Fernando Valley became a city, it would be the seventh largest in the United States, with over one million people.[citation needed]
Other attempted city secession drives include Killington, Vermont, which has voted twice (2005 and 2006) to join New Hampshire; the community of Miller Beach, Indiana, originally a separate incorporated community, to split from the city of Gary in 2007; Northeast Philadelphia to split from the city of Philadelphia; and the rejection of annexation of what was the unincorporated area of West Indio from Indio, California.[citation needed]
A portion of the town of Calabash, North Carolina voted to secede from the town in 1998 after receiving permission for a referendum on the issue from the state of North Carolina. Following secession, the area incorporated itself as the town of Carolina Shores. Despite the split, the towns continue to share fire and emergency services.
If done as one state effectively breaking up the US, this would really be democracy at work representative of the majority, not the 47% who did not bother to vote this week. Go for it !
If Trump was right, and the election was rigged, shouldn't he refuse to take office?
The one good thing that I hope has come out of all this;
People all around the world are finally waking up to what is actually going on, consumerism, and "modern technology toys" I fear are not working their magic' as well as those in real positions of power would possibly have liked, as in; distractions designed to keep us all occupied with trivial rubbish, while they [the powers that be] continue authorising, and carrying out atrocities, and suffering around the world.
[Tries hard not to point out the glaring irony in someone saying 'modern technology toys are not working their magic' on a forum devoted to discussing them.]
The Black Adder
11-11-2016, 19:41
[Tries hard not to point out the glaring irony in someone saying 'modern technology toys are not working their magic' on a forum devoted to discussing them.]
He means communication devices, not hifi to which I agree. The world today is eating itself, technology is god to the masses. A world where peoples eyes are down, reading the most damaging rhetoric is a world open to volatile dictatorship. Everyone is connected but nobody really knows why. Each person thinks they are correct with no room for discussion because nobody discusses anything any more. Opinions become ones own pre-plotted path to which nobody deviates. Dangerous.
He means communication devices, not hifi to which I agree. The world today is eating itself, technology is god to the masses. A world where peoples eyes are down, reading the most damaging rhetoric is a world open to volatile dictatorship. Everyone is connected but nobody really knows why. Each person thinks they are correct with no room for discussion because nobody discusses anything any more. Opinions become ones own pre-plotted path to which nobody deviates. Dangerous.
+1
He means communication devices, not hifi to which I agree. The world today is eating itself, technology is god to the masses. A world where peoples eyes are down, reading the most damaging rhetoric is a world open to volatile dictatorship. Everyone is connected but nobody really knows why. Each person thinks they are correct with no room for discussion because nobody discusses anything any more. Opinions become ones own pre-plotted path to which nobody deviates. Dangerous.
But I thought Anthony's point was that these 'toys' are no longer working as a distraction and that people are waking up etc etc. (Unfortunately the effect of their awakening is that they vote for dumb ideas like Brexit, Trump for US President and Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, so maybe they should have been left to sleep).
walpurgis
11-11-2016, 23:24
A large proportion of people are pretty dumb anyway. Many have no books in their homes. They all seem to own PCs though, but can barely manage to use FaceBook (yuk). Folk like this vote and do so in ill informed, ignorant, droves.
Light Dependant Resistor
12-11-2016, 00:32
But even more ignorant and caring less, are those 47% of the population who did not vote at all.
Of those who bothered to vote, voted in favor of Clinton 47.7% vs 47.4%
Moving on, the protests that could lead to secession or formation of discussion to that aim, remain.
Oregon and California presently being the most active.
But I thought Anthony's point was that these 'toys' are no longer working as a distraction and that people are waking up etc etc. (Unfortunately the effect of their awakening is that they vote for dumb ideas like Brexit, Trump for US President and Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader, so maybe they should have been left to sleep).
if they had given us a vote on the dumb idea of 'ever closer union' in the first place there would have been no need for Brexit.
But I agree it is ludicrous that people who disagree with you should be allowed a vote, why don't we take that to its logical extremes and have a democratic system of government...?
I supported Brexit because of a long standing hatred of most things 'European' (I'm a half breed English/Welsh person anyway and that's a burden to me as I can't shake off my home-counties side of hundreds of years). I reckon the E U will get the severe shake-up it needs and just maybe, we'll come out better for it - time will tell, but it's too cloudy right now.
As for Trump, he's financially above most of the wealthy US families who have run the show in the past. It's my hope he can shake things up there - for the better, long term - but he's going to need rank and file lower down to moderate the excesses. People don't always like change, but now I reckon some change is due.
I can't speak for Corbyn. He's such a scruffy unkempt thing (in the cause of ageing hippy 'freedom' I suspect) I doubt he'll ever be our PM, in the same way Michael Foot never was, despite being extremely clever and articulate I remember, along with Kinnock, who was extremely articulate before becoming the party leader.
If you look at the demographics of the Brexit and Trump votes, those in the higher economic groups voted for the stsus quo. Those in the lower groups voted for change (Except with Trump he had almost zero support from blacks and Hispanics, understandably).
So the problem is not dumb vs clever it is rich vs poor. If the status quo had performed better to date and created more wealthy people they wouldn't be in this mess now. But it didn't.
anthonyTD
12-11-2016, 09:51
Exactly!:)
There will always be the percentage of people who couldn’t give a toss, and don’t bother to vote, we have them in this country too!
Its the folk who genuinely want to do the right thing that are seeking out the truth, and looking for answers, and hopefully they will grown in strength and numbers with each new generation, Education, Education, Education.
And, they have the best tool at their disposal; the difficulty for all of us' is being able to differentiate between fact and fiction, truth, and disinformation.
The Truth is out there!
He means communication devices, not hifi to which I agree. The world today is eating itself, technology is god to the masses. A world where peoples eyes are down, reading the most damaging rhetoric is a world open to volatile dictatorship. Everyone is connected but nobody really knows why. Each person thinks they are correct with no room for discussion because nobody discusses anything any more. Opinions become ones own pre-plotted path to which nobody deviates. Dangerous.
But I agree it is ludicrous that people who disagree with you should be allowed a vote, why don't we take that to its logical extremes and have a democratic system of government...?
I'm not sure I follow your argument here; are you saying that we don't currently have a democratic system of government?
I'm not sure I follow your argument here; are you saying that we don't currently have a democratic system of government?
No, I am saying that if we decide that the democratic system needs to change simply because it does not always deliver the result we personally want we are in big trouble.
I supported Brexit because of a long standing hatred of most things 'European' (I'm a half breed English/Welsh person anyway and that's a burden to me as I can't shake off my home-counties side of hundreds of years).
That's just weird. I'm half-Scottish, a quarter English and a quarter Irish. I've never felt the need to shake off any of it. Why would I?
I don't much care for Eurovision, but that's where my hatred for 'things European' starts and ends.
I don't much care for Eurovision, but that's where my hatred for 'things European' starts and ends.
To paraphrase Hunter S Thompson: 'Eurovision is what the whole, hep world would be doing on a Saturday night if the Nazis had won the war.'
No, I am saying that if we decide that the democratic system needs to change simply because it does not always deliver the result we personally want we are in big trouble.
Ah. Well, that isn't quite what I was arguing for. The trouble is, IMO, that the gutter press (Mail, Express, Sun, Mirror) reduce every complex issue to simple black/white, yes/no scenarios, which appeal to the less well-educated. That was the trouble with the Brexit referendum; it posed a yes/no question when the underlying issue is a tangled web of law, politics and economics. The Mail/Sun/Express are now treating any attempt to require proper Parliamentary scrutiny of the government's actions as tantamount to treason, even though the whole point of Brexit was supposedly that Parliament should 'take back control'!
I think the influence of the media has been vastly over-rated. What is the circulation of those newspapers and how many of the purchasers actually read any of the political commentary, or do they just go straight to the back for the sport? Lots of things influence people, what a newspaper prints is just one of them. It may be convenient to assume that irresponsible journalism is the problem, but personally I think that is clutching at straws.
Media seemed to be dead against Trump the whole way. Yet he still wins. Was watching the Tonight Show the day before the election, the entire show was an attack on Trump. That worked well.
I think the influence of the media has been vastly over-rated. What is the circulation of those newspapers and how many of the purchasers actually read any of the political commentary, or do they just go straight to the back for the sport? Lots of things influence people, what a newspaper prints is just one of them. It may be convenient to assume that irresponsible journalism is the problem, but personally I think that is clutching at straws.
I don't know about newspaper circulation <checks>. Sun, Mail and Express around 2 million altogether; Mirror just under a million. But the Mail Online is the most 'popular' website in the world. Now, it could be that the press is following rather than leading opinion (probably a bit of both), but when three of the four most widely read tabloids a) back the Tories and b) back Brexit, it would be naive to ignore their influence.
This thicko doesnt read newspapers much if at all. More inclined to disbelieve than believe anything they say too. But i know now im too stupid and ill educated to understand any of this big boys thread;)
I suppose it is futile to argue as to how many people go on the Mail website to look at celebrity stories and never go anywhere near the political stories without figures and I doubt they are available.
My point about Trump winning despite his lack of support from the media still stands I think. Unless you are suggesting the media has more influence in the UK than the USA? Again, difficult to quantify.
Incidentally my mother has taken the Mail everyday for at least as long as I have been alive. I'm pretty sure she has never voted Conservative in her life and she voted to remain in the EU.
I suppose it is futile to argue as to how many people go on the Mail website to look at celebrity stories and never go anywhere near the political stories without figures and I doubt they are available.
My point about Trump winning despite his lack of support from the media still stands I think. Unless you are suggesting the media has more influence in the UK than the USA? Again, difficult to quantify.
He had support from some parts of the national media (Fox News for example) plus in the US local news media are far more influential than they are in the UK. And, of course, Clinton won more votes.
Stratmangler
12-11-2016, 13:22
And, of course, Clinton won more votes.
And your point is?
Liberals got 8% of votes last election but got less than 1% of seats. Maybe proportional rep is fairer
And your point is?
Well, Macca was arguing that despite all the media being anti-Trump, he won the US election. I put forward some counter-points: a) not all the national media were anti-Trump, b) local media may have had a more significant impact than national media and c) Clinton actually polled more votes, so (by implication) the anti-Trump national media may have had some impact.
He had support from some parts of the national media (Fox News for example) plus in the US local news media are far more influential than they are in the UK. And, of course, Clinton won more votes.
Not sure I would say Fox actively supported him Daily Mail style, but I grant you they were more charitable. U.S Local media I have no idea about, so I'll take your word that they were mainly for Trump. The number of votes thing is irrelevant. There is a system, and the rules are the same for both sides.
Like the Americans we pretty much run a binary system Every so often you get to make a choice between more of the same or something different. So people voted depending on whether they thought a change was required, or that everything was going swimmingly. I'd argue that aside from a small minority who always vote ideologically, that is how people decide who to vote for. In the past 30 or so years this choice has disappeared. Whether you vote for the existing regime to continue or the new one, nothing is any different except the faces.
Brexit and Trump were the first real alternatives to the status quo to come along in decades. Both Trump and Brexit were most popular in the lower socio economic groups and least popular in the higher groups and that is the fundamental reason that we have Brexit and Trump. Too many relatively poor people who feel like they are not going anywhere whilst rule by Corporation and globalisation leaves them stranded behind. The influence of Media propaganda is a side-show by comparison.
Stratmangler
12-11-2016, 13:41
Even discussing proportional representation with respect to the subject in this thread is a waste of time.
The American electoral system, like ours, is on a constituency basis, although it will doubtless be called something that sounds bigger and grander.
and c) Clinton actually polled more votes, so (by implication) the anti-Trump national media may have had some impact.
I missed the point you were making with this. I'm not arguing the media has no influence, just that it is being massively over-estimated in its impact by those looking for a quick and easy answer as to why so many people fundamentally disagree with their world view.
Stratmangler
12-11-2016, 13:48
Well, Macca was arguing that despite all the media being anti-Trump, he won the US election. I put forward some counter-points: a) not all the national media were anti-Trump, b) local media may have had a more significant impact than national media and c) Clinton actually polled more votes, so (by implication) the anti-Trump national media may have had some impact.
I thought you were alluding to the old subject of PR, which is why I asked.
National media appear to have rather less influence than they'd like to think they have - it's been a recent recurring theme where voting is involved.
https://storify.com/The74/school-violence-over-elections-and-trump-increasin?utm_source=embed&utm_medium=publisher&utm_campaign=embed-header
Thats redneck america. Sad but it happens, especially kids of..... it will no doubt calm itsself in time. He aint pres yet
I supported Brexit because of a long standing hatred of most things 'European' (I'm a half breed English/Welsh person anyway and that's a burden to me as I can't shake off my home-counties side of hundreds of years). I reckon the E U will get the severe shake-up it needs and just maybe, we'll come out better for it - time will tell, but it's too cloudy right now.
As for Trump, he's financially above most of the wealthy US families who have run the show in the past. It's my hope he can shake things up there - for the better, long term - but he's going to need rank and file lower down to moderate the excesses. People don't always like change, but now I reckon some change is due.
I can't speak for Corbyn. He's such a scruffy unkempt thing (in the cause of ageing hippy 'freedom' I suspect) I doubt he'll ever be our PM, in the same way Michael Foot never was, despite being extremely clever and articulate I remember, along with Kinnock, who was extremely articulate before becoming the party leader.
Yeah I know,
He should Put on a proper suit, do up his tie and sing the National Anthem...
ffs.
walpurgis
13-11-2016, 17:12
Yeah I know,
He should Put on a proper suit, do up his tie and sing the National Anthem...
ffs.
What's a tie? :scratch:
Latest from Trump on the Mexican Wall: 'There may be some fencing'.
Typical contractor, accepts the job then tries to cut corners.
Light Dependant Resistor
13-11-2016, 20:10
History past and present of protests all in one spot. If of interest to you, suggest bookmark on your browser, as protests are continually developing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_Donald_Trump
Might the direct approach work? :D
YDSrmRY6zgs
Ali Tait
01-12-2016, 15:38
:D
Bet the body double felt that.
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