View Full Version : Why do these 2 sources sound different to each other whilst playing exactly same CD?
57charles
08-11-2016, 16:18
I have a Sony SACD XA3000ES CD player and a Denon DVD A1 DVD player (used as CD deck) both connected to TEAC D-T1 DAC. I have 2 copies of identical CD and when I play them simultaneously on both machines and switch the TEAC to output one and then the other, there is a definite difference in sound - not necessarily quality just different. The Sony sounds more livelier and the Denon a bit 'darker' - both sound excellent but I can't make my mind up which I prefer. don't understand why there's such a large difference - any thoughts/
Amp is Yamaha Z9 and speakers are Spendor SP2/3r2.
Thanks!
Cables? Or differing output. Dodgy transport v good one all possible. Take it youve switched the disc round just in case
hifi_dave
08-11-2016, 16:48
Just proves that transports and cables do sound different.
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 17:02
I have a choice of three CD player/transports and they differ a lot in sound via my DAC.
I would say though that DACs seem to have an even greater variation in sound. Unsurprisingly, given the different types of design.
Cables make a minuscule difference, if any, in digital audio.
Both transports are extremely likely to be bit perfect on their SPDIF outputs, which leaves the clock signal. It is ridiculously easy to transmit perfect data (digital), but remember, the clock is analogue...
Thus, the differences are due to jitter and clock drift.
57charles
08-11-2016, 17:22
Both units have the same co-ax digital cables connecting to the DAC and there is no difference in volume levels when switching between the transports.
I know that the Denon was a top of the range DVD player in it's time (approx. 3000 pounds) with battleship build quality and high grade transport and power supplies and I believe the Sony was highly regarded as well. Like I said, I'm talking about different sonic presentation not a lack of or difference in quality - for example I've also hooked up a Denon 2900 (a well regarded DVD player used as CD transport) and the sound became strained and lightweight and even more so with my Yamaha DVD S2700 which was at the top of the Yamaha range at the time and this too sounded really lightweight and uninvolving. I als tried my Sony BDP S5000ES blu ray and used it as a cd deck - it was also superior in sound quality but annoyingly I couldn't see if there was a way to programme CD tracks for reply on it - so it's used for blu ray only.
I know both the Sony 3000ES and Denon A1 have very well worked power supplies with multiple transformers. Wonder whether this could be a factor?
57charles
08-11-2016, 17:27
Incidentally, I consider the Sony to have a little more 'zing' compared to the darker, richer sounding Denon but neither are at all fatiguing and in fact they both sound superior to anything that has gone before - like I said, just a different presentation of rather excellent sound reproduction (to my ears, at least).
Power supplies are critical, should say can be. Take it youve swapped all the variables round and difference remain with machine. Nice test, although ive heard a machine sound nothing special yet transformed via a good buffer. Mine in fact lol. Have you tried them both out using their own dacs as another trial. If it stays the way it is then it suggests the psu. Transport can make a difference but wouldnt think it would do what this is doing. Also swap dac sockets as ive had a dadgy one once :)
Arkless Electronics
08-11-2016, 17:47
Different DAC IC's, op-amps, capacitors, voltage regulation and grounding regime between the two machines..... simple as that.
Different DAC IC's, op-amps, capacitors, voltage regulation and grounding regime between the two machines..... simple as that.
They are being used through an off board DAC so the same DAC chips in both cases, hence the mystery. Although it is only half a mystery as anyone with ears can hear that transports sound different (not necessarily better or worse).
I've read that is that a co-ax/spdif cable does not transmit the data the same way electrically as a computer type cable like a USB cable does and this creates differences in cables as noise and distortion can be generated, although in this case the cables are identical.
Arkless Electronics
08-11-2016, 18:46
They are being used through an off board DAC so the same DAC chips in both cases, hence the mystery. Although it is only half a mystery as anyone with ears can hear that transports sound different (not necessarily better or worse).
I've read that is that a co-ax/spdif cable does not transmit the data the same way electrically as a computer type cable like a USB cable does and this creates differences in cables as noise and distortion can be generated, although in this case the cables are identical.
Ah yes I should have read the op more carefully.... In that case I doubt any difference is present...
Cables make a minuscule difference, if any, in digital audio.
Sorry, but you must have failed to hear a good digital cable. The result is far from minuscule.
I don't understand the drama, of course they will sound different. If all CD transports or CD players with digital outputs sounded the same then there would only be need for one manufacturer and a £100 player would sound the same as a £5000 player.
Every part of a Hi Fi chain can affect the SQ, even down to fuses and binding posts.
Arkless Electronics
08-11-2016, 19:25
I don't understand the drama, of course they will sound different. If all CD transports or CD players with digital outputs sounded the same then there would only be need for one manufacturer and a £100 player would sound the same as a £5000 player.
Every part of a Hi Fi chain can affect the SQ, even down to fuses and binding posts.
Ever so tempted... but won't rise to the bait:D
Ever so tempted... but won't rise to the bait:D
Best not. But have to say I thought the same as you re CD transports until I tried it for myself. It isn't night and day difference but is more than one can wilfully put down to imagination. Although I accept a lot of transports will be indistinguishable from one another.
Arkless Electronics
08-11-2016, 19:41
Best not. But have to say I thought the same as you re CD transports until I tried it for myself. It isn't night and day difference but is more than one can wilfully put down to imagination. Although I accept a lot of transports will be indistinguishable from one another.
I guess I can see there being really tiny differences between transports yes. Error correction, ie "fudging it" will be more or less apparent depending on how well the unit reads the info...
Dunluce978
08-11-2016, 19:55
Another thing - is the perceived audio level you hear from the speakers exactly the same when you switch transports? Have you measured it with a sound meter?
A slight difference in sound levels easily fools the brains perception of audio quality/detail.
57charles
08-11-2016, 20:13
Arkless Electronics - I have been listening to hi-fi for over 40 years and whilst I'm sceptical about a lot of things, I trust my ears - there is a demonstrable difference between these two units which I can discern on a blind AB test - it's not snake oil and it's not imagination and I'm not a flat earther - I'm just a normal guy who loves music and hi-fi in equal amounts - not into cable differences, Russ Andrews etc etc. Just sayin'
57charles
08-11-2016, 20:16
Sound levels are the same - there is a perceived darkness and richness with the Denon and an open, lighter balance to the sound with the Sony - I like both of them!
Sound levels are the same - there is a perceived darkness and richness with the Denon and an open, lighter balance to the sound with the Sony - I like both of them!
What is it that make you think they should sound the same?
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 20:20
I'm just a bit baffled as to why you would be surprised that two different machines sound different when used as transports. That tends to be the norm in my experience.
I'm just a bit baffled as to why you would be surprised that two different machines sound different when used as transports. That tends to be the norm in my experience.
Thanks Geoff, I was beginning to doubt my own sanity there.
57charles
08-11-2016, 20:30
Bumpy - Look, I'm not a technical person and have come on here to ask some technical and highly educated people why I'm hearing a difference - if you don't like my question, go and masticate on a house brick.
Bumpy - Look, I'm not a technical person and have come on here to ask some technical and highly educated people why I'm hearing a difference - if you don't like my question, go and masticate on a house brick.
I think you need to learn some manners Charles. I'll back out of this now.
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 20:38
Bumpy - Look, I'm not a technical person and have come on here to ask some technical and highly educated people why I'm hearing a difference - if you don't like my question, go and masticate on a house brick.
Yes. What's that response for? The replies you've had have been perfectly polite and reasonable.
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 20:54
Charles you need a calmer approach. Chris did not claim any technical expertise, nor did he offer any. Most of us here are not technical experts. You asked for opinions and received some. I see nothing to get yourself hot under the collar for.
57charles
08-11-2016, 21:03
Walpurgis - thanks for your reply - it's just that I take issue with someone questioning me why I'm asking the question - I'm not technical and this approach is in my opinion, quite belittling - I didn't come on here to be talked down to, by such people nor will I put up with it - I'm normally a polite person but I won't put up with this clap trap - if this guy hasn't got anything to say constructively about my question then he should keep his trap shut.
Light Dependant Resistor
08-11-2016, 21:09
Whilst you have the same DAC same cable, there are many thousands of differences in the preceding integrated circuits in each transport delivering and processing digital, and this is what you are hearing.
The not so good, and could be better multiplex, strangely accepted by audiophiles called SPDIF , in this case having just enough ability - to reveal the differences
http://audioworkshop.org/downloads/AES_EBU_SPDIF_DIGITAL_INTERFACEaes93.pdf
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0401/deficienciesofspdif.htm
Cheers / Chris
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 21:11
I think you may be overreacting Charles. I'm sure Chris intended no offence. We expect members to be able to respond in the expectation that they will not be pounced upon by others who may have expected something else. Nobody has said anything offensive to you.
Oh. And please don't suggest folks should 'keep their traps shut'. Posts from others on your thread do not have to address your question directly or in a technical way. It's a forum and we like the banter relaxed and friendly.
Yes, I would say you have misinterpreted a reply as hostile when it wasnt. It can be difficult when not face to face sometimes. We dont treat each other like that here, and we dont tell folk to shut their trap Charles. Please try and remember this and if you have a problem with a post, then report it and the mod team will look at it:)
Bumpy - Look, I'm not a technical person and have come on here to ask some technical and highly educated people why I'm hearing a difference - if you don't like my question, go and masticate on a house brick.
Charles, that remark was completely uncalled for and inexcusable. I'm afraid we don't address each other here in such a derogatory manner. Please don't do that again or you will face disciplinary action.
Also, we don't allow members to moderate their own threads or retaliate against other members whom they consider have acted adversely towards them. The procedure is to report the offending post(s), and let us deal with it.
Marco.
57charles
08-11-2016, 21:33
Marco - thanks for your reply - my retort was basically because as a non technical person on here, I don't expect nor will accept being talked down to, on here or anywhere else for that matter - mine was a simple question from myself - a non techie - and I don't expect to it to be answered by another quite condescending question - what is the point in asking me why I didn't think there would be a difference if I was asking the question in the first place?- if the person who replied couldn't or wouldn't give me their views then what was the point in them replying to me?...Just sayin'.
Marco - thanks for your reply - my retort was basically because as a non technical person on here, I don't expect nor will accept being talked down to, on here or anywhere else for that matter - mine was a simple question from myself - a non techie - and I don't expect to it to be answered by another quite condescending question - what is the point in asking me why I didn't think there would be a difference if I was asking the question in the first place?- if the person who replied couldn't or wouldn't give me their views then what was the point in them replying to me?...Just sayin'.
Charles, I understand where you're coming from. However, regarding the bit in bold, I'm afraid if you want to remain here, then next time that happens you *must* not react towards the person responsible and instead report the post, and WE will deal with the matter, not you.
Failure to comply with that will result in YOU being reprimanded, and indeed you could also end up banned, if you insist on fighting your own battles. You're only new here, so I suggest that you try and settle in more quietly and stop causing waves.
In any case, I'm not debating with you any more on this, so please observe what I've said and apply it in future.
Marco.
fatmarley
08-11-2016, 21:46
Well I thought a couple of posts were a bit patronising too.
I've never experimented with different transports but I do find it interesting that a lot of the techy types say it's not possible to hear a difference and yet people with ears I trust say they can actually sound different.
walpurgis
08-11-2016, 21:53
There would be little point in buying an expensive transport if they all sounded similar. Some can cost many thousands of pounds.
57charles
08-11-2016, 21:53
Marco - thank you for your kind understanding on this matter. I will follow your directions in future and apologise for breaching forum etiquette.
Well I thought a couple of posts were a bit patronising too.
I've never experimented with different transports but I do find it interesting that a lot of the techy types say it's not possible to hear a difference and yet people with ears I trust say they can actually sound different.
I do agree, Matt. My own (considerable) experience in this area confirms that transports can, when designed properly, effect significant sonic improvements. I've compared too many flimsy, plastic DVD-ROM mechs against metal-constructed dedicated CD-only transports, with clamping mechanisms, huge independent PSUs, etc, for said effect to have been imagined.
It's about vibration and noise control, and in that respect providing the optimum environment for discs to be accurately read by the transport concerned, with minimal loss of fidelity.
Therefore, as ever in audio, not everything is as 'cut and dried' as the techy types like to think! ;)
Marco.
Marco - thank you for your kind understanding on this matter. I will follow your directions in future and apologise for breaching forum etiquette.
Thank you, Charles. Much appreciated! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Firebottle
09-11-2016, 07:09
It's only a string of digits ...Ha :nono:
I and quite a few on here realise that everything matters in audio. The mechanical/electro transducers on the sides of your head are superlative, trust what you hear Charles.
There is often no simple explanation for these scenarios.
:D
Sorry, but you must have failed to hear a good digital cable. The result is far from minuscule.
I used to be very confident that they did too, until I started blind testing and A/B switching between 2x cables hooked into identical transports. I use BNC sockets & where possible proper impedance matching, which is available via my Halide Bridge USB to SPDIF converter, which is much better than any CD transport I've used, and as it's an integrated unit, no more worrying about switching cables. There are far, far more important things to think about, which are jitter and clock drift.
Dunluce978
09-11-2016, 13:18
Sound levels are the same - there is a perceived darkness and richness with the Denon and an open, lighter balance to the sound with the Sony - I like both of them!
Did you measure them with a meter? I ask because even slight differences in sound levels can change your perception of what you hear.
Stryder5
09-11-2016, 13:40
Let us not be lead into technicalities, theories or any diversions from the music.
Measurements from a source surely are irrelevant, as the receptors (our ears) have a wide variance of capabilities.
If you perceive a difference, cool.
I would have thought too many variables are present to define why things sound different, temperature, pressure, state of mind.....etc.
Dunluce978
10-11-2016, 00:21
Let us not be lead into technicalities, theories or any diversions from the music.
Measurements from a source surely are irrelevant, as the receptors (our ears) have a wide variance of capabilities.
If you perceive a difference, cool.
I would have thought too many variables are present to define why things sound different, temperature, pressure, state of mind.....etc.
I agree, however one of the ways our brain can be fooled easily is with slightly different volume levels. One will sound more dynamic/detailed than the other just with a small increase in volume. Removing that possibility by ensuring both devices deliver the same sound level at the speakers helps in the process.
I agree, however one of the ways our brain can be fooled easily is with slightly different volume levels. One will sound more dynamic/detailed than the other just with a small increase in volume. Removing that possibility by ensuring both devices deliver the same sound level at the speakers helps in the process.
indeed Al, although Ive found the increase due to output from source to be more important dynamically than just turned up at main amplifier.
Stryder5
10-11-2016, 09:05
I briefly was tempted to go technical and talk about SPL's and db weighting etc.
Glad I stopped myself.......lol
There is a middle ground. I am a subjectivist through and through, but if there is a 'significant' change, then it's easy to spot it with your eyes closed. Objectivists should trust their experiences more, and subjectivists should be more aware of how the brain can easily perceive a big change when really there is none.
As for transports, yep, did blind tests, could easily spot the differences. Strange, but true. A good recent example was blind testing between my Halide Bridge and the SW1X USB transport - ridiculously easy to spot the differences blind. I have 2x identical DAC inputs that I can switch between.
I was caught hook line and sinker, much to my shame. On another forum, two identical music samples at exactly the same mean level* were posted and forum members encouraged to compare them. I thought I could hear a very slight difference between them and gave a preference. Indeed there WAS a difference - *one of the samples had HALF A DB EXTRA in level on ONE CHANNEL ONLY! The one I preferred was the one with the half-a-db extra gain added to one channel.
I do appreciate 'we' listen for pleasure and pre-conceived ideas come into play so often. I 'expect' DVD players not to be so good on CD via their analogue outputs, but is it the transport part, as many domestic CD players now apparently use DVD drives 'slowed down' for CD use I believe, as dedicated CD drives barely exist these days I gather. In theory, I believe there's a receiving 'window' in the DAC which should be easily able to lock on to the transport output. My gut-git feeling is the 'real time' factor in CD reproduction, as in a computer, there's buffering and superior error correction I'm told.
Interesting that these things are still heard by many when 'supposedly' they shouldn't at all.
I never read a convincing theory as to why error correction should have any effect. If it fails you will hear it fail. Otherwise it recreates the wave exactly. It is all or nothing, you can't get slightly worse SQ because read errors are being corrected. An indirect effect may be theoretically possible. The best I have seen is the theory that working the error correction heats up the player and creates thermal noise.
That is jitter, which has already been mentioned. I don't think so because the o/p makes it clear that it is not a difference in quality, just presentation, and audible jitter would degrade SQ. And there would need to be a lot of it. Vinyl replay has a fair bit and you don't notice that.
If the SPDIF interface is really bad, with severe impedance mismatches, then a huge amount of signal reflections are generated, which means that during the 'decision point' of a timing signal can be corrupted by a reflection. It is RF engineering, not audio engineering! The problem is that is is physically impossible to get true 75 Ohm impedance with RCAs no matter what the marketing blurbs tell you. BNC is the way, to make cables and RCAs a non-issue.
My DAC has a true 75 Ohm connection, and with the Halide Bridge BNC connected there are no reflections, low jitter and low clock drift. Longer cables will help if reflections are an issue. I have a 5m one. Read about A-RT's UBYTE SPDIF cable for good insights into cables.
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