Thorens TD 160 B Mk II Upgrade or change??

[Buck Boogie]

Hi,

I have an ATR Thorens TD160 fitted with a Hadcock GH228 tonearm and A&R C77 cartridge dating back to the 1970's (picture attached). I haven't used it a great deal in recent years but am rediscovering an extensive vinyl collection and thinking about upgrading but I'm not sure what direction to go in. The other parts of my system are a Rotel RA01 amp and bi-wired Kef Cresta speakers mounted on Atacama stands.

My thoughts are;

1) Keep it as is
2) Keep it and invest in some upgrades - does anyone have any experience with SRM TECH TD160 upgrade kit

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-ULTIMATE-THORENS-TD160-ENHANCEMENT-KIT-STUNNING-SOUND-QUALITY-/332019852696?hash=item4d4dece598

3) Sell and buy something else (budget around £750)

If anyone has any thoughts or advice I'd be really grateful

Thanks

Chris

[struth]

A few things you can do to make inroads without parting with all that cash, SrM tech do some good things but if your in any way handy you can improve it without spending too much.

Use some cork sheet glued to the under top plate with help with vibration. Make or buy a 10mm or so thick base plate. use the old one as a template. The srm tripod discs in that list can be bought cheap. they make a good improvement. Dump the rubber mat and get a cork/rubber mix one(ebay) they do a 2 piece one thats good. a new belt as well makes a big difference.
A better cart maybe second hand if you want, and a better but no need to be silly expensive phono stage will help too.
Other thing if you want later is a bigger more solid plinth if you fancy it, but meantime you can add a bit of mass to the one you have with a little strengthening.

It'll sound pretty decent with the mods alone, and the cart/ phono will lift it more. There is a limit to how far it will improve though. Its a capable deck and the mods wont cost much.

[walpurgis]

It's a good turntable and you have a pretty decent arm on it. Just a few tweeks along the lines Grant has mentioned and you're set for another twenty years, You'd have to spend well over a grand new to better it. You can even get high quality styli for the A&R cartridge.

[Buck Boogie]

Thanks for your comments and suggestions, much appreciated. It's good and bad news to hear I'd need to spend north of a grand to better the TD160, installing a sturdy base, strenghtening the plinth and putting a new belt and mat on should be pretty inexpensive improvements but then again I've always wanted an LP12 and I'm not getting any younger!

Chris

[DSJR]

Knowing the TD160 family so well I have to be very careful here.

I suggest a nicer plinth, such as one made by Layers of Beauty's Russ Collinson. The deck lifts hugely and looks so much posher in one of these and I'm told it sounds better for it too, although I'd have a block fitted for mains and signal lead anchoring as per the original. I have a 160 Super plinth waiting for mine to be done at some point and again, the thicker base may make things more rigid, but I remember LP12's sounding better sometimes with no base at all... All subjective I know.

The C77 could have a new replacement P77 (PN7) stylus fitted. The people who made the later ones were Expert Stylus Co. and I believe they still have them at fair prices. FAR better than the dull old C77 in my opinion.

If the belt is a year or three old, I'd get a new pukka Thorens one as well. Not sure if an external power supply might smooth the motor down, but it might.

[narabdela]

Fettle the deck and arm if desired. As previously mentioned, you'd have to spend more than your £750 to buy better.

The cartridge needs to go though. There's room for real improvement there.

[struth]

Here is the one I did. It sounded very good

http://imageshack.com/a/img905/4834/qL4iYD.jpg

[danilo]

Might it not be more effective to see to upgrading the System.
Rather than zeroing in on the pore TT as being in immediate need of improvement ?
A Phono stage improvement often makes genuine difference as does Amp and Speakers

[DSJR]

A good TD160 has promise and the Hadcock is a potentially fine arm able to take many modern cartridges including its speciality - DECCA'S...

A PN7 stylus will be enough and the other £670 or so could go on at least a speaker upgrade and possibly an amp one too ;)

[rdpx]

I've always wanted an LP12 and I'm not getting any younger!

This is the standout line for me.

If you've really always wanted one, and can afford it, get one!

R





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[topoxforddoc]

You can even get high quality styli for the A&R cartridge.

A brand new original spec P77 parabolic stylus assembly from Expert Stylus Co is £75 (ESCo made them for A&R). Buy that and a second hand vacuum record cleaner e.g. Moth, Okki Nokki, Project etc. These two things will transform your record collection and enjoyment. See how that goes, and then reconsider later on. The Hadcock will happily take a very expensive cartridge (I've had my £3k Allaerts on my 228 before).

Ideally I would personally look to get a Decca cartridge at some point, but try A&R P77 first at £75. It is pretty good - I've compared my Garrott P77i (upgraded P77) side by side to my Decca C4E and it doesn't disgrace itself by comparison. At £75, I would say that it is stellar :)

[rdpx]

A brand new original spec P77 parabolic stylus assembly from Expert Stylus Co is £75 (ESCo made them for A&R). Buy that and a second hand vacuum record cleaner e.g. Moth, Okki Nokki, Project etc. These two things will transform your record collection and enjoyment. See how that goes, and then reconsider later on. The Hadcock will happily take a very expensive cartridge (I've had my £3k Allaerts on my 228 before).

Ideally I would personally look to get a Decca cartridge at some point, but try A&R P77 first at £75. It is pretty good - I've compared my Garrott P77i (upgraded P77) side by side to my Decca C4E and it doesn't disgrace itself by comparison. At £75, I would say that it is stellar :)
I think I chucked a P77 a year or so ago as I had read you couldn't get new needles for them... Oops.


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[walpurgis]

If it was a toss up between buying a Decca to use with the Thorens or getting an LP12, I would definitely opt for the Decca. It would be less costly, make a much bigger immediate improvement in sound quality and of course, as has been pointed out, the existing arm is very suited to Deccas.

That's not to say the Hadcock would not work on a Linn and with a Decca. It would. very well, but the thing is, an LP12 really just sounds like an upgraded TD160. Which is largely what it is in many ways.

I'm biased though. I'm not keen on the Linn. I'm not saying it isn't good, although the sound has not desperately impressed me. I feel it offers poor value for the considerable money it costs. Even a basic version with a half useable arm is likely to be well over £2K, unless you settle for a dull, cheap Rega. Never mind the cost of a cartridge to go with it.

[Simon75]

This thread is really relevant to me. I'm using a Thorens td 150 with a SME 3009 series 2 non improved arm with a Shure v15 typeii cartridge. So far I've invested in a Schiit mani phonostage and a new generic stylus. My amp is a teac AH300, speakers Wharfedale Diamond 10.1.Also using Sennheiser HD600 headphones with Schiit Vali2 HPA. Things are sounding good but I'm wanting to spend around a further £600 upgrading. But I'm not sure what the priority should be.
The plan at the moment is get a Rega Brio r amp with Dynaudio emit m10 speakers. Also thinking I should try a Jico stylus.Or would I be wiser concentrating on upgrading the TT as suggested Struth and SRM/TECH? Any guidance would be gratefully appreciated.

[struth]

I wouldnt spend 250 on that upgrade kit personally, but there is one or 2 things in it you could buy. A better plinth/case does help, and the base is very important. Those tripod dots for in between the platters is along with the base and a good belt the biggest bang for buck on deck. next is a better cart. you already have a good phono stage. Might be inclined to spent some cash on the amp/ speakers. second hand buys are best, as you avoid the first big fall ...

[Simon75]

Thanks Grant. Yeah I'm personally not inclined to spend £250 on those upgrades either. I should have said in my original post that the TT came replinthed, I think it certainly makes difference. I will definitely go ahead with what you suggested, I think srm/tech offer smaller, more affordable upgrade packs. I am enjoying the V15 at the moment, think a M55E is going for about £60 at the moment.

[Stryder5]

Pl
Hi,

I have an ATR Thorens TD160 fitted with a Hadcock GH228 tonearm and A&R C77 cartridge dating back to the 1970's (picture attached). I haven't used it a great deal in recent years but am rediscovering an extensive vinyl collection and thinking about upgrading but I'm not sure what direction to go in. The other parts of my system are a Rotel RA01 amp and bi-wired Kef Cresta speakers mounted on Atacama stands.

My thoughts are;

1) Keep it as is
2) Keep it and invest in some upgrades - does anyone have any experience with SRM TECH TD160 upgrade kit

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-ULTIMATE-THORENS-TD160-ENHANCEMENT-KIT-STUNNING-SOUND-QUALITY-/332019852696?hash=item4d4dece598

3) Sell and buy something else (budget around £750)

If anyone has any thoughts or advice I'd be really grateful

Thanks

Chris

When I retrieved my Linn deck after its sojourn in the loft from some 15+ years, it had a P77 cartridge fitted, sounded dull and lifeless, admittedly it was the original stylus. Major improvement with a cheap and cheerful Rega Carbon. Now using AT 440 Mlb stunning.
I did service the deck with new oil etc.

[struth]

Thanks Grant. Yeah I'm personally not inclined to spend £250 on those upgrades either. I should have said in my original post that the TT came replinthed, I think it certainly makes difference. I will definitely go ahead with what you suggested, I think srm/tech offer smaller, more affordable upgrade packs. I am enjoying the V15 at the moment, think a M55E is going for about £60 at the moment.

using an m55 myself. nice original one is hard to beat anywhere near the money. was going to buy that but skint myself elsewhere lol

[DSJR]

This thread is really relevant to me. I'm using a Thorens td 150 with a SME 3009 series 2 non improved arm with a Shure v15 typeii cartridge. So far I've invested in a Schiit mani phonostage and a new generic stylus. My amp is a teac AH300, speakers Wharfedale Diamond 10.1.Also using Sennheiser HD600 headphones with Schiit Vali2 HPA. Things are sounding good but I'm wanting to spend around a further £600 upgrading. But I'm not sure what the priority should be.
The plan at the moment is get a Rega Brio r amp with Dynaudio emit m10 speakers. Also thinking I should try a Jico stylus.Or would I be wiser concentrating on upgrading the TT as suggested Struth and SRM/TECH? Any guidance would be gratefully appreciated.


With *vinyl* the first priority is usually the deck then arm then cartridge and so on. I do believe that digital these days can turn things the other way round, but vinyl is different as far as I'm concerned.

In the above case, the TD150 could gain a nicer plinth perhaps? The V15 II in good order is a world above the M55E but both lack hf energy (I have both here, the V15T2 with original nos stylus and the M55E with Ed Saunders tip). A 97XE may well build on both and be completely compatible with the old SME - in my opinion.

The Brio R is a nice amp and now available at good prices used. Whether it's *really* much better than the AH300 if not pushed is something you'll have to check for yourself. A pal who sometimes posts here has a Mani and really rates it as a giant killer for the money

As for speakers, I haven't a clue these days and if you buy used, loads of choices.

[Buck Boogie]

Thanks everyone for your inputs to this thread, very useful stuff.

I've decided to go with a DIY approach on the TD160 and so have on order a new belt, cork/rubber mat, tripod platter mounts, a 10mm thick lump of black acrylic pre-cut to correct dimensions which, using the existing piece of wood as template, I'll make a new base plate, and some sorbothane feet - £60 the lot.

Next I'll look at the cartridge options.

I'll update once all this is sorted out.

These plinths do look lovely though http://layers-of-beauty.co.uk/thorens-/8-thorens-td160-plinth.html?#/hardwood-cherry

Chris

[walpurgis]

Keep us posted on what you do Chris. I'm sure it would be of interest to TD160 owning members. In fact you could start a blog with photos. That would be good.

As I mentioned before, use the search facility on the forum for TD160 stuff, there's been quite a bit.

[Simon75]

The TD150 I purchased a few months ago came replinthed and I certainly think it makes a difference. That's really interesting what you say about the V15 typeII David. I've very limited experience of cartridges but when listening to it with Schiit Vali2 HPA, Schiit Mani phonostage and Sennheiser HD600 it sounds lovely to my ears. But it doesn't seem to have many fans, sometimes being dismissed as a museum piece. That said the 97XE is certainly something I want to listen to, by most accounts it's great.

[DSJR]

Most old moving magnet cartridges have a hf suckout. The V15 T2 descended M75/91 Shures suffer too, but you hear it as strong bass, rather than a lack of top for some reason :) Now, the after market styli may have tweaked this down for all I know - I have a Jico? N91-ED stylus and it's as lively as anything and with a good diamond on it, but tracking of sibilants isn't to Shure standards, not even at 1.5g. Currently, the Sumiko Pearl and possibly the current Garrott P77 may have the same body as old 1980's Jap imported cartridges from Supex (SM100), Rega R100 and FR models amongst others and again, all of these have a recessed treble region, again heard as a strong and punchy bass.

The Shure V15 III was totally flat, but together with this, there's a slightly hard 'relentless' quality to it. The later HE stylus cured it and sounded lovely to me by any standards, but very few of these red bodied styli were imported I think and practically none of the final 'MR' versions of the VN35 stylus for it.

One interesting online article in Stereophile had master tape compared to an acetate cut from it and the acetate sounding almost identical. Cartridge used was a V15 IV, a model I find bland for a while until I condition myself to it, upon which it can be rather good.. Maybe as suggested there, a domestic 'HiFi' cartridge needs to exaggerate slightly to make up for the inevitable losses in the vinyl format? I have my own thoughts, but few people agree and other 'engineers' have vested interests too, sadly. All those eighties tests in 'Choice books, made by someone acting as regular external 'consultant' to various manufacturers...

[helma]

The Thorens is a good deck, with some caveats. At least with the stock arm, I find it's a rather relaxed sounding, meaning it doesn't really get up and boogie really well. Never bothered me until I did some A/B comparing against some other (non belt-driven, non suspended) turntables and realized how lackluster the Thorens sounded when the drums got pounding and the music needed to have some serious kick. It would just kind of round out the bass and plod along in relatively sluggish manner. But even with the stock arm, it has great presence and imaging, it really throws a very well defined and captivating soundstage into the room. I had performed some DIY upgrades to it and set up the suspension for maximum bounce, because the sound staging etc. kept getting better and better, but I imagine actually damping the suspension a bit might help in the bass performance and even out the strengths and weaknesses a bit.

With that in mind, if you mostly listen to rock & pop, it might not take that much to better it. On the other hand if you listen to a lot jazz, or classical or acoustic music in general, where the production is more airy and has more atmosphere, then the Thorens gets to shine with what it does well. I think overall it's a bit colored sounding turntable, but in a most pleasant way. I have a Denon DP-3000 direct drive and a fettled Lenco L-75 which has been performing main duty. After listening to those two mostly for a long time, I dug out the Thorens and wow, was it an enjoyable listen. For a moment there I thought why did I even bother with the other stuff if this Thorens is this nice. After a while I started to remember why I prefered the Lenco overall, it's just a better all-arounder - doesn't shy away when the going gets 'tough', doesn't really color the music and manages to present soundstage and atmosphere in a manner that's comparable to the Thorens. But this is with a full service, non-stock tonearm and a heavy plinth. If I gave the Thorens same kind of attention and thought to pairing it with a tonearm & cartridge that suits it, who knows. I'm actually tempted to have another look at the Thorens and try to squeeze some more out of it.

Anyway, my point is it's a very enjoyable TT and hard to better in some areas, while somewhat lacking in others. If you're happy with how it sounds, there's absolutely no reason to look elsewhere.