What would be next step from Nagaoka MP200

[mac72]

I'm thinking about little pre-Christmass gift for myself ,
as much as I like my Nagaoka MP200 is time to go forward , what would be next step from Nag cart ?
Natural answer is 300 & 500 but I've already been there and wasn't impressed with , great detail but sounding too much hi-fi , foot tapping factor got missing somewhere .
Mainly I do listen to 70s 80s rock & pop so slam , tight bass is a must , what I miss with 200 is slight lack of resolution, bass is big but somehow on the loose side.
I was thinking about MC's but apart from AT33PTG II none I heard suited my music preferences , I haven't heard many and none in my system I must warn ,
When it comes to MM - 2M Black would be probably another answer - never heard one , but from what I read isn't far from MP500 ,
Budget as little as possible ,max £500.
Must be fairly compliant-my arm eff. mass is 9.5gram
Loading options for MC are 100R,500R but it could be easily resolved
Slav

[topoxforddoc]

How about an old A&R P77 - brand new parabolic stylus from Expert Stylus Co @ £75 (who made the original stylus assemblies for A&R). Great tight bass and would suit your arm. Well within your budget too. Now made to a higher spec by Garrott as the P77i in Oz - but at a much higher price.

If you need more inspiration, check this thread out started by Rauliregas. It will take you a long time, but it's well worth it.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc

[karma67]

i went from the mp-500 to an old ortofon mc25fl,i thought i was doing the wrong thing at first but i really rate this cartridge,i dont miss the mp-500 at all,the ortofon has that warm foot tapping sound that the mp-500 didnt.
theres one on ebay now if you look.

[topoxforddoc]

Another alternative might be the venerable Denon 103 or 103R, if your budget can stretch.

[mac72]

How about an old A&R P77 - brand new parabolic stylus from Expert Stylus Co @ £75 (who made the original stylus assemblies for A&R). Great tight bass and would suit your arm. Well within your budget too. Now made to a higher spec by Garrott as the P77i in Oz - but at a much higher price.

If you need more inspiration, check this thread out started by Rauliregas. It will take you a long time, but it's well worth it.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc

Intriguing , seems like Expert Stylus is not selling replacement stylus anymore but Jico SAS from Japan does , not very cheap @ $211 but might be worth trying.
Would parabolic stylus give me same amount of detail as my elliptical MP200? Am I right thinking SAS stylus would be a way superior while keeping bass performing and tight .
Another question , are MC carts capable of providing same drive/dynamic capabilities as MM's without going into crazy money.

[mac72]

i went from the mp-500 to an old ortofon mc25fl,i thought i was doing the wrong thing at first but i really rate this cartridge,i dont miss the mp-500 at all,the ortofon has that warm foot tapping sound that the mp-500 didnt.
theres one on ebay now if you look.

Added to "watch list" , thanks ,
Did you re-tip yours ?

[mac72]

Another alternative might be the venerable Denon 103 or 103R, if your budget can stretch.

I'm not sure if I want to go Denon 103 route , low compliance means I would need to add a lot of weight to my arm .
They seem to be not very expensive , though.

[struth]

I loved the mc25 but sold it when i got the m55e. Lowly mm in manys book from yesteryear, but it sounds great on my system. You could do a lot worse and save some cash too.

[walpurgis]

I'm not sure if I want to go Denon 103 route , low compliance means I would need to add a lot of weight to my arm .
They seem to be not very expensive , though.

The MC25FL was far superior to the DL-103 and DL-103R on my system. I rate the Ortofon as being on a par with my ZYX R50 Bloom. Both of which are better than my Goldring Eroica LX (but not by much, love the Eroica, it's a bargain! :)).

[karma67]

Added to "watch list" , thanks ,
Did you re-tip yours ?
no mate,i was asking in case i need it for future reference.i would think the one on ebay will go for £100-£150.:)

[walpurgis]

no mate,i was asking in case i need it for future reference.i would think the one on ebay will go for £100-£150.:)

I've seen them sell for up to £200 (ish). A good one is well worth it in my opinion.

Have a decent bid ready or even use a bid sniper. I use Goofbid regularly, that way I've laid down how much I'm willing to part with and don't make silly bids. A 3 second lead in seems to work for me. I get what I'm after about 75% of the time.

[mac72]

I loved the mc25 but sold it when i got the m55e. Lowly mm in manys book from yesteryear, but it sounds great on my system. You could do a lot worse and save some cash too.

Thanks , another cart added to the list , again Jico SAS stylus is an option , I like it
Am I right thinking rock and MC carts don go together

[walpurgis]

Am I right thinking rock and MC carts don go together

No. That's so wrong.

There are a few polite and laid back MCs (and MMs), but the MC25FL rocks very well, as do the DL-103s and ZYXs. The glorious SPU is great with rock. MC's give you all the ambience of the stage too, so you can hear all the guitar fingering noises and little clatters from drum kits. Good stuff!

[karma67]

Thanks , another cart added to the list , again Jico SAS stylus is an option , I like it
Am I right thinking rock and MC carts don go together
i cant see the m55e with stock stylus being in the same league as an mc25,put the jico on @£200+ and maybe

[walpurgis]

Oh. And just in case anybody wants a 'polite' and delicate sounding MC for choral music or string quartets and so forth. Consider the Denon DL-304 or Transfiguration Aria (if you can find one). They have a more gentle and refined nature.

[mac72]

No. That's so wrong.

There are a few polite and laid back MCs (and MMs), but the MC25FL rocks very well, as do the DL-103s and ZYXs. The glorious SPU is great with rock. MC's give you all the ambience of the stage too, so you can hear all the guitar fingering noises and little clatters from drum kits. Good stuff!

ZYX R50 Bloom goes on the list then , thanks for clarification
I knew it , I shouldn't trust my ears

[karma67]

when mine gives up im going to try one of the zyx's

[mac72]

How AT33PTG mk1 fits into equation (there is one for sale on PFM) , I heard mk2 and kind of liked it but it wasn't in my system

[walpurgis]

I shouldn't trust my ears

You should always trust your ears. I trust mine.

[mac72]

when mine gives up im going to try one of the zyx's

There's been one last week on this very forum but was sold by the time I managed to PM :steam:

[mac72]

You should always trust your ears. I trust mine.

This is the biggest problem when buying cartridges , we all perceive music in different ways , accompanying equipment plays a massive role as well , that’s how I bought MP500 to my great disappointment.

[karma67]

i found mine great at detail,but could sound rather harsh at times,would you agree?
the other downside is the price £600 +would get you something much better with hindsight,i bought mine second hand but still £300 that could be better spent,again with hindsight :)

[walpurgis]

I had an MP50 briefly. It wasn't my kind of sound. I was using a Technics EPC-305MC as my main cartridge at the time. The the Nagoaka sounded bland in comparison.

There again, so did most non MCs, apart from Deccas and my ADCs.

[mac72]

i found mine great at detail,but could sound rather harsh at times,would you agree?
the other downside is the price £600 +would get you something much better with hindsight,i bought mine second hand but still £300 that could be better spent,again with hindsight :)

Exactly what I thought , I found listening to CD give me more pleasure than MP500 . I liked MP300 better but 200 seems to be a sweet spot in Nags range , 110 is rather enjoyable as well and well priced for what it does ( I keep one as a spare)

[mac72]

Question regarding ZYX , is there a trade-in program or one needs to re-tip used cartridge elsewhere

[walpurgis]

Question regarding ZYX , is there a trade-in program or one needs to re-tip used cartridge elsewhere

See what it says on SoraSound these days. Paul at RFC may be able to advise also.

As far as I recall there is no exchange facilty. So a (good) retip would likely be the thing. I have four of them, but not crossed that bridge yet.

http://www.sorasound.com/

[mac72]

I've looked at R50 Bloom , do they quote compliance @10Hz or 100Hz , seems bit light weight as well , not sure if matches my 9.5gram arm - need to do some calculations

[walpurgis]

I've looked at R50 Bloom , do they quote compliance @10Hz or 100Hz , seems bit light weight as well , not sure if matches my 9.5gram arm - need to do some calculations

I believe the dynamic compliance figures equate to a higher static figure. The cartridges are light. I use them in a very low mass Mission 774 arm and add a bit of mass at the headshell. Fluid damping is applied too.

[mac72]

I shall post WTD add in Classifieds see if there is "low" hours ZYX around , if nothing happens I buy new one.
Question is , should I go for R50 low output , high output or R100 , not much difference "price wise " between those 3 , but again R100 cost £850 and there might be other contenders out there , does this madness ever end?

[hifi_dave]

I believe the Zyx range is going through major changes.

[mac72]

I believe the Zyx range is going through major changes.
Hi Dave
Do you sell ZYX carts?

[walpurgis]

I shall post WTD add in Classifieds see if there is "low" hours ZYX around , if nothing happens I buy new one.
Question is , should I go for R50 low output , high output or R100 , not much difference "price wise " between those 3 , but again R100 cost £850 and there might be other contenders out there , does this madness ever end?

There's only 3 db loudness difference between the low and higher output ZYX MCs. That's barely discernible, so take your pick.

Last time I looked, I believe the R50 was a bit over £500 and the R100 around £900. You could always try a Yatra at £1200 (got one of them too :))

I believe Dave is correct about the ZYX MC range. New models may be due, which could mean end of range bargains. The existing models are superb. I dare say 'improvements' will come at a cost though.

[hifi_dave]

Hi Dave
Do you sell ZYX carts?

I have done but supply has always been problematical.

[eddieedwards]

I was speaking to a nagaoka dealer recently, who said that the 200 was probably the sweet spot of the range.

Jus to add to the confusion (sorry!), you might want to try and have a listen to a soundsmith moving iron. I've recently got one and rather enjoy it. I think there's an used otello available here:

http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo.php?prod_title=Soundsmith_Otello&p=stereo_cartridge&prod_id=39376&offset=

[mac72]

I was speaking to a nagaoka dealer recently, who said that the 200 was probably the sweet spot of the range.

Jus to add to the confusion (sorry!), you might want to try and have a listen to a soundsmith moving iron. I've recently got one and rather enjoy it. I think there's an used otello available here:

http://www.hifi-forsale.co.uk/moreinfo.php?prod_title=Soundsmith_Otello&p=stereo_cartridge&prod_id=39376&offset=

Thanks , I'll have a look , after I've done some reading ZYX seems to be my 1st choice .
Anyone compared ZYX to AT33PTG ?

[mac72]

Anyone knows if ZYX compliance is measured @10Hz or @100Hz?

[CageyH]

Thanks , I'll have a look , after I've done some reading ZYX seems to be my 1st choice .
Anyone compared ZYX to AT33PTG ?

No, but as a PTG/II owner, I would be interested in this too.

[mac72]

Finally managed to fit R50 today ,question how long does zyx take to break in .
Straight out of the box - bit dissapointing , bloaty bass & harsh highs , some improvement after couple hours but still too edgy , bass & speed is there though.
Runnng @2grams , cartridge parallel to platter , 100R loading , measured resonance ~9-10Hz with extra weight fitted .

[struth]

it may take some time tbh. expect 30 hrs min, but seen mcs take near 100 to get bang on.

[karma67]

for whats it worth,and ive only ever had 3 new cartridges, none of them sounded off from the start,they sounded very good and simply got better.

[mac72]

It doesn't sound "bad" just unpolished in the higher register , I might increase VTF while breaking in or it might be me expecting too much from the start , especially after having this cartridge since Tuesday but not having enough time to install it .
Very dyynamic and fast from the start , reduces surface noise , pops & clicks to minimum for sure .

[karma67]

ok,give it some time then,from all reports you have a very good cartridge there,i plan to have a crack on one of them soon.i will leave you to the delights of cartridge set up and tweaking!
the very thought gives me a migraine lol

[mac72]

Spinning Bryan Ferry
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/slawekt/WP_20161127_10_29_20_Pro_zps4xzc3j3p.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r614/slawekt/WP_20161127_10_34_07_Pro_zpsjrfa8uag.jpg

[karma67]

nice!

[walpurgis]

The R50 Bloom should sound pretty decent out of the box, but ZYX MCs do take a while to settle from new. I believe ZYX themselves have said improvement continues for up to 40 hours.

The front end is critical with decent cartridges. What SUT or MC stage are you using into your phono stage or does your phono stage have a direct MC input? And what is the arm?

[mac72]

Zyx goes into Whest Two phono stage (55dB, 100R), arm is Clearaudio Satisfy direct wire carbon version, very light 9.5grams - 17.5 with Isokinetik .
I might go for SUT but don't want to make too many changes at once , FRT-3 Fidelity Research seems to be favourite around here , what else?

[struth]

Very small adjustments in azimuth can sometimes help this as well. As can weight. I remember Gary,s dynavector sounding a tad weedy for some time till it broke in then sounded stunning. I had a whest 2 for a time, and i found it a bit low and thin. I replaced it at time with a firebottle plus. Night and day improvement

[walpurgis]

Your mention of the top end being unpolished. It's not that. If you get used to listening to the ZYX , you'll notice that there is no detail missing. It just doesn't draw attention to itself, as there are no colourations. Once 'loosened up', the Bloom should offer superb imaging, a fine soundstage and huge ambience.

As I think I mentioned to you, I have a spare FRT-3 SUT. I also have what some regard as 'the holy grail' of SUTs, a Luxman AD8000 Type 8020 that I'm considering selling, but that would not be cheap.

As Grant says, play with the azimuth. And certainly move the VTA about as it is critical with this type of stylus profile.

[mac72]

I spent fair amount of time setting azimuth , I agree it makes massive difference , I think I got it as close to perpendicular as possible , I might drag my scope next week to have closer look at it .
I do like Whest Two a lot , makes very good combination with my McIntosh amp , in my case thin it isn't for sure .Zyx sounds very powerful and fast , bass is the last thing I would complained about , just highs not very smooth as I hoped ,
I try to put few more hours on the cart today , then going away for a week :(

[mac72]

Your mention of the top end being unpolished. It's not that. If you get used to listening to the ZYX , you'll notice that there is no detail missing. It just doesn't draw attention to itself, as there are no colourations. Once 'loosened up', the Bloom should offer superb imaging, a fine soundstage and huge ambience.

As I think I mentioned to you, I have a spare FRT-3 SUT. I also have what some regard as 'the holy grail' of SUTs, a Luxman AD8000 Type 8020 that I'm considering selling, but that would not be cheap.

As Grant says, play with the azimuth. And certainly move the VTA about as it is critical with this type of stylus profile.

SUT would be next thing after I recover financially from Christmass and holiday expenditures , how much would you like for Luxman ?

[walpurgis]

SUT would be next thing after I recover financially from Christmass and holiday expenditures , how much would you like for Luxman ?

I don't know really. Probably around the £500 region. It's basically irreplaceable. They just don't come up for sale. I can let it go, as I have something else that sounds as good.

[mac72]

I don't know really. Probably around the £500 region. It's basically irreplaceable. They just don't come up for sale. I can let it go, as I have something else that sounds as good.

If is still for sale after I come back from holiday (end of January) I'd be interested ,
I'll see how Bloom performs after say 50 hours or so then decide what to do next

[bosa]

My Zyx cartridges sound better at 220ohms, I thought 100 sounded a bit dull. May be worth trying. VTF does make a difference, I have tried going up from 1.95g and prefer it at about 2.1g with greater depth to the soundstage and a more authority to the sound. My listening room can get a bit cool though so a higher value is often recommended in this case.

[mac72]

My Zyx cartridges sound better at 220ohms, I thought 100 sounded a bit dull. May be worth trying. VTF does make a difference, I have tried going up from 1.95g and prefer it at about 2.1g with greater depth to the soundstage and a more authority to the sound. My listening room can get a bit cool though so a higher value is often recommended in this case.

I upped tracking force to 2.1g, been running this cart for almost 10hours so far , no serious listening though just background ,
I will check SRA next weekend as it takes lot of time to fiddle with microscope camera to get perfect shot,I'll check all setup again (done it like 5 times already) and report back.
Thanks to all for the input , Night

[mac72]

Just a quick update before I go away,
I re-checked settings, didn't have time to check azimuth on the scope , done it with ruler instead , SRA was more than 3/4 of degree out (checked with microscope camera and CAD) , VTF same 2.1 gram , Anti-skate very minimal (much lower than 14dB track on HiFi News suggested) .
Almost 20 hours on the cart and WOW , quite a difference , nice and smooth but at the same time very dynamic , fair amount of detail , wide soundstage , very good stereophony, only thing I could complain about would be bass , plenty of but bit too loose for my liking .
.

[struth]

Could still tighten up a fair bit yet. Patience is a virtue with these things. Too many folk just dont like initially and sell for a big loss. At least your sticking with it

[mac72]

To be honest at the moment I like it bit better than MP200 at it's pirime
I have H version with internal impedance of 8 ohm instead 4 for L version it might pay to increase loading a bit to say 200ohm but it's something I can fiddle with after burn-in period , off to the airport now.

[mac72]

My Zyx cartridges sound better at 220ohms, I thought 100 sounded a bit dull. May be worth trying. VTF does make a difference, I have tried going up from 1.95g and prefer it at about 2.1g with greater depth to the soundstage and a more authority to the sound. My listening room can get a bit cool though so a higher value is often recommended in this case.

Thanks for the tip Jonathan
Increased loading to 235ohm (470ohm resistors is what I had on hand ) and it makes hell a lot of difference , seems like "H" version likes to be loaded bit higher than 100ohm . I have briefly tried 470ohm but it seems to be too high .More resistors on order , can't wait for Xmas to have some serious listening .

[bosa]

Great stuff. I have had an H version and my current low output Zyx, and they both sounded best at 220. I am sure you will enjoy!