Stirring a hornets nest

[bumpy]

You just know when you post something like this that debate will get messy, but here goes.

My system is very transparent and has solid silver cabling almost throughout, including mains cables to the major components, interconnects and USB cable. In a chat with Slawa of SW1X the other day he mentioned that he had experimented with a silver cable on the power supply to his computer and I might want to try it.

Well late last night I did.

I have a Longdog Audio linear power supply powering my RPi music player. The linear power supply originally brought a big improvement to the SQ of the system, but swapping to a silver mains on the Longdog increased 3 dimensionality and clarity of all the little quiet twiddly bits in the music. I switched cables ten or more times blinded and the result was 100% the same

Now I'm a scientist and can think of no logical reason why this should happen. Would anyone like to hazard a guess.

So now I have a £30 player with its power supply and cabling costing over £500. This Hi Fi lark is amazing. I suppose the question should be "would I spend £530 to get a player of this quality" and the answer is of course yes.

[Gordon Steadman]

Buzz buzz.

I use bog standard cabling on all my systems as I prefer the sound. I have tried expensive cables and whilst I admit the sound changed, it was not for the better.

Ears, horses, courses etc:)

[bumpy]

Buzz buzz.

I use bog standard cabling on all my systems as I prefer the sound. I have tried expensive cables and whilst I admit the sound changed, it was not for the better.

Ears, horses, courses etc:)

I don't have a problem with that and would never argue with what anyone else is hearing. I am just seeking any logical explanation as to what is happening. :)

[DSJR]

And here's me accused of shilling and worse if I dare to mention NVA on this forum :(

I expect this is an SW1X mains cable he'll be selling shortly?

[Sovereign]

Yes the NVA cable is very good, I've heard the LS6 and LS7
The LS6 is a combination of pure copper and silver plated copper conductors. Very open and transparent and detail and placement is fantastic.
LS7 was similar, it is purely silver plated copper. Quite fantastic and staggeringly transparent. I used it for some time before I made the speaker cable I have now, which is made of pure copper. Funny how there is no consistency here. I.e. That one material is always better.
I would like to try silver on mains cable, but that would be a big outlay.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right. Before we go any further. Are you happy with your outcomes and sound?

if the is answer is yes I would counsel doing what your doing and ignore other suggestions. Trust your ears and experiment in the areas that YOU want to experiment other than areas which may be finicial lay beneficial to others.

:trust:

[Reffc]

If changing cables makes someone happy, there's little point in arguing against it. Personally, the last 1m of cable from the power station to my connected piece of kit, I believe, should make no difference at all unless there's some weird electrical interaction with the kit's power supply, or fault with it, where altering 1m of LCR parameters has an audible effect by altering the power supply in some magical way. Personally I've never heard any real audible effects of swapping any mains cable and nor do I believe it should make any difference, and I only ever bother using £1.99 kettle leads now. What I or others think doesn't matter as much as what the end user thinks and does. Like a lot of things Hifi related, its part of the fun of experimenting for yourself and finding what you think works best for you.

[mikeyb]

Right. Before we go any further. Are you happy with your outcomes and sound?

if the is answer is yes I would counsel doing what your doing and ignore other suggestions. Trust your ears and experiment in the areas that YOU want to experiment other than areas which may be finicial lay beneficial to others.

:trust:
Yip my thoughts too, I always find it strange that people argue that one thing is better than an other, especially when there is one major flaw in their argument, they have different ears ( and I don't mean physically lol )

Then add in preferences such as bass, midrange, treble, soundstage, etc etc.

Only YOU can say if one is better than the other.

Me, I just listen to music, not Hi-fi ;-)

[walpurgis]

Personally I've never heard any real audible effects of swapping any mains cable and nor do I believe it should make any difference, and I only ever bother using £1.99 kettle leads now.

My view too.

[struth]

If changing cables makes someone happy, there's little point in arguing against it. Personally, the last 1m of cable from the power station to my connected piece of kit, I believe, should make no difference at all unless there's some weird electrical interaction with the kit's power supply, or fault with it, where altering 1m of LCR parameters has an audible effect by altering the power supply in some magical way. Personally I've never heard any real audible effects of swapping any mains cable and nor do I believe it should make any difference, and I only ever bother using £1.99 kettle leads now. What I or others think doesn't matter as much as what the end user thinks and does. Like a lot of things Hifi related, its part of the fun of experimenting for yourself and finding what you think works best for you.

And mine...

BUT...If others find an improvement then great, and should go for it. Maybe i am missing something

[walpurgis]

Cable threads are great entertainment. One just knows they will always go the same way :eek:.

Anyway. I've a question. Why do digital interconnects have an influence on the sound? I'd have thought they should all 'sound' the same, but they certainly do vary in their effect on what comes out of the system. I've demonstrated this to myself (and others) many times. It's not imaginary. The changes are very evident.

[struth]

Same answer as the question, "why am i so handsome." God only knows :lol:

[brucew268]

So now I have a £30 player with its power supply and cabling costing over £500. This Hi Fi lark is amazing. I suppose the question should be "would I spend £530 to get a player of this quality" and the answer is of course yes.

I consider that most amps and CD players and DACS in the 80's and 90's had the power supply as an integral part of the case, and thus the purchase. So it was down to the designing engineer how much effort went into which circuit. A few chose to put a lot of work into the power supply, and wherever they excelled the buyer benefitted. We didn't slate a deisgner because he put too much of the design and cost into the power supply. We didn't know the difference unless a particualr professional reviewer highlighted the fact. We just nodded our heads that the end result was worth the cost and pleased our ears. So to question spending £30 on a player and £500 on its power supply can often be a red herring.OTOH, it may be worth noting that a £30 player may have some weakenesses due to its simplicity and low cost which need several compensating remedies, of which a posh power supply is only one.

[bumpy]

And here's me accused of shilling and worse if I dare to mention NVA on this forum :(

I expect this is an SW1X mains cable he'll be selling shortly?

Oh dear. I make a few posting over on another Web Site about my system and get accused of being a shill. I gave them my name address and telephone number and extended an invitation to call or visit, which of course they didn't.

David (DSJR), I will not dignify your innuendo with a response, until such time as the UK passes a law against free speech.

[bumpy]

Yip my thoughts too, I always find it strange that people argue that one thing is better than an other, especially when there is one major flaw in their argument, they have different ears ( and I don't mean physically lol )


If this comment is aimed at me then please read my post again. There is no arguing going on, except a desire to understand why some cables affect sound quality so profoundly.

If you like copper, silver plated copper, or even tin plated copper, of any brand I don't give a fig. So lets just explore why differences occur - please stick to topic and stop grinding your own axe.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Oh dear. I make a few posting over on another Web Site about my system and get accused of being a shill. I gave them my name address and telephone number and extended an invitation to call or visit, which of course they didn't.

David (DSJR), I will not dignify your innuendo with a response, until such time as the UK passes a law against free speech.

well done! You've achieved your first objective of stirring a hornets nest, cable debates are always a shitfest which usually causes people to flounce off, be banned, cause bad feelings, or several other very negative forum based effects.

[mikeyb]

If this comment is aimed at me then please read my post again. There is no arguing going on, except a desire to understand why some cables affect sound quality so profoundly.

If you like copper, silver plated copper, or even tin plated copper, of any brand I don't give a fig. So lets just explore why differences occur - please stick to topic and stop grinding your own axe.
Stick, wrong end?

I was agreeing with you ffs

I didn't see your post as an argument and didn't reply such, I was only saying that I don't understand how people in general can argue with other people's opinions on something like listening to music through certain pieces of equipment when they can't hear what the other person hears.

I was posting in support of the post I quoted [emoji6]

Oh and if posting one reply is grinding and axe then.......... Oh dear you are a grumpy sod this morning [emoji39] [emoji38]

[walpurgis]

Steady guys. Lets move on.

[struth]

You just know when you post something like this that debate will get messy, but here goes.

My system is very transparent and has solid silver cabling almost throughout, including mains cables to the major components, interconnects and USB cable. In a chat with Slawa of SW1X the other day he mentioned that he had experimented with a silver cable on the power supply to his computer and I might want to try it.

Well late last night I did.

I have a Longdog Audio linear power supply powering my RPi music player. The linear power supply originally brought a big improvement to the SQ of the system, but swapping to a silver mains on the Longdog increased 3 dimensionality and clarity of all the little quiet twiddly bits in the music. I switched cables ten or more times blinded and the result was 100% the same

Now I'm a scientist and can think of no logical reason why this should happen. Would anyone like to hazard a guess.

So now I have a £30 player with its power supply and cabling costing over £500. This Hi Fi lark is amazing. I suppose the question should be "would I spend £530 to get a player of this quality" and the answer is of course yes.

To get this back on subject, yes cables do have an effect, although not everyone hears them, and the effect can be minimal to non existant in some systems. Ive found mains cables dont seem to make any difference to me, but other cables do.
....and yes, you as an individual with no connection to the seller other than being a customer are both entitled and encouraged to give your views on these things. If people have a connection to seller then it is different.

No more moans please

[mikeyb]

Steady guys. Lets move on.
I fail to see what I've done wrong, other than agree with the op AND Rexton, yet I seemingly have an axe to grind WTF?

[emoji20]

PS: aimed at the OP not you Geoff [emoji6]

[walpurgis]

I fail to see what I've done wrong, other than agree with the op AND Rexton, yet I seemingly have an axe to grind WTF?

[emoji20]

PS: aimed at the OP not you Geoff [emoji6]

Best leave it Mike. Better to get back to the main thrust of the thread than getting into differences with others. We all get occasional comments that are not appreciated. Ignore them.

[mikeyb]

I've reread my original post and can see how bumpy has taken it (wrongly) I was trying to say that there shouldn't be any arguments on such things because we all hear different things and if he heard a difference then he'll be right. Same as I might hear something different.

Oh I give up, it's hard to explain by typing grrrrrr

[mikeyb]

Lol I'm Scottish, we never leave anything [emoji39] [emoji38]

[walpurgis]

I know. I have a couple of Scottish mates. Can't take 'em anywhere. Couple of large whiskies down their necks and they want to take on the world :D.

[bumpy]

Stick, wrong end?

I was agreeing with you ffs

I didn't see your post as an argument and didn't reply such, I was only saying that I don't understand how people in general can argue with other people's opinions on something like listening to music through certain pieces of equipment when they can't hear what the other person hears.

I was posting in support of the post I quoted [emoji6]

Oh and if posting one reply is grinding and axe then.......... Oh dear you are a grumpy sod this morning [emoji39] [emoji38]

Sorry if I picked up the wrong flavour from your post. Its often difficult to discern nuances and in a busy thread sometimes replies are not always easy to assign to any one posting. :)

And yes, your post coming so near to the one accusing me of being a shill again caught the backlash. Peace :)

[mikeyb]

Sorry if I picked up the wrong flavour from your post. Its often difficult to discern nuances and in a busy thread sometimes replies are not always easy to assign to any one posting. :)
I reread it myself and I can see why you read it the way you did, sorry.

Typing what you mean is always harder than saying it.

I'm a grumpy bastard, or so my kids tell me lol [emoji20] [emoji481]

[mikeyb]

I know. I have a couple of Scottish mates. Can't take 'em anywhere. Couple of large whiskies down their necks and they want to take on the world :D.
Aye, we're ah SAS candidates ye ken !

[bumpy]

To get this back on subject, yes cables do have an effect, although not everyone hears them, and the effect can be minimal to non existant in some systems. Ive found mains cables dont seem to make any difference to me, but other cables do.
....and yes, you as an individual with no connection to the seller other than being a customer are both entitled and encouraged to give your views on these things. If people have a connection to seller then it is different.

No more moans please

Excellent, back on topic.

Other than silver plated cables carrying high frequencies down the outer skin, why do we (sometimes) hear differences in say modern vs vintage copper and how on earth can 1 metre of specific mains cable alter a 240 volt signal that may have travelled several miles to my house?

[struth]

Thought i made myself clear David. Yet you come back to it.. last 2 posts will be deleted along with any more of similar. Back on subject, and play the game please.

[bumpy]

So yes, it IS amazing what a good power supply can do for integrated low voltage part.

I don't think there are any arguments against power supplies, but why is it that just the mains cables are able to do this? Or is it that power supplies are somehow affected by it? (as you can see I am not a technical person)

[YNWaN]

The relevance of skin effect is very questionable with regard to audio cables and even more so when considering mains cables. Skin effect undoubtedly exists but it's relevance is at much higher frequencies than encountered in audio.

[bumpy]

The relevance of skin effect is very questionable with regard to audio cables and even more so when considering mains cables. Skin effect undoubtedly exists but it's relevance is at much higher frequencies than encountered in audio.

Agreed Mark, its influence on a 240v AC signal should be negligible.

[anthonyTD]

Good grounding, and a cables ability to ground noise as quickly, and efficiently as posible is also worth noting, as far as perceived sonic diffrences between cables are concerned.

[bumpy]

Good grounding, and a cables ability to ground noise as quickly, and efficiently as posible is also worth noting, as far as perceived sonic diffrences between cables are concerned.

So could this be a two way thing. Up till now I have concentrated on the mains voltage coming in, but you make a very reasonable case for the mains cable to function more efficiently in grounding the equipment it supplies.

[Reffc]

Good grounding, and a cables ability to ground noise as quickly, and efficiently as posible is also worth noting, as far as perceived sonic diffrences between cables are concerned.

:):thumbsup:

[Reffc]

The relevance of skin effect is very questionable with regard to audio cables and even more so when considering mains cables. Skin effect undoubtedly exists but it's relevance is at much higher frequencies than encountered in audio.

:) :thumbsup: :more:

[anthonyTD]

Hi Chris,
I will elaborate a bit further.
When you look at what is being asked of a mains cable, plus its connections, as long as the cable is of ample core size to carry the voltage and current needed [ie a standard kettle lead will easily cope with most audio related components, even the power demands of the most hungry conventional domestic amplifier designs] then we have to look at what else is going on within the cables core configurations, connections, earthing, and termination etc, which [IMHO] is where I feel most, if not all perceived diffrences can be atributed to.
So could this be a two way thing. Up till now I have concentrated on the mains voltage coming in, but you make a very reasonable case for the mains cable to function more efficiently in grounding the equipment it supplies.

[pgarrish]

Cable threads are great entertainment. One just knows they will always go the same way :eek:.

Anyway. I've a question. Why do digital interconnects have an influence on the sound? I'd have thought they should all 'sound' the same, but they certainly do vary in their effect on what comes out of the system. I've demonstrated this to myself (and others) many times. It's not imaginary. The changes are very evident.

I'd say because it's not a digital connection if it's spdif over coax - it's a square wave which is going through an improperly terminated cable (rca doesn't give a proper 75ohm termination). How they developed such a crap interface when any computer signal method would have worked better (since they generally work at higher frequencies and have error correction) is beyond me but there we are.

[walpurgis]

I'd say because it's not a digital connection if it's spdif over coax - it's a square wave which is going through an improperly terminated cable (rca doesn't give a proper 75ohm termination). How they developed such a crap interface when any computer signal method would have worked better (since they generally work at higher frequencies and have error correction) is beyond me but there we are.

I'm thinking specifically of the 'digital' leads I've tried between my CD transport and DAC. Some quite expensive examples sounding less good than home made ones. I do have an old Deltec item that sounds very good. Better than a fairly costly Townshend one.

[Audio Al]

I'm no electrician but have thought this cable malarky through and came to this conclusion

If you have a 8mm ID pipe it will flow " X " water over a set period of time , If you use a 22mm ID pipe it will flow lots more water

Converting this onto cables , a tiny thin cable will not cope ( Carry high voltage / watts requirements ) where as a bigger cable will

I decided to fit a 3 core 16mm armaflex dedicated cable from my main fuse box into my audio room using all new cable / plug sockets RCD unit

I adopt the same thoughts with speaker cables

Interconnects are all RFC Pluto's

:)

[Gordon Steadman]

I'm no electrician but have thought this cable malarky through and came to this conclusion

If you have a 8mm ID pipe it will flow " X " water over a set period of time , If you use a 22mm ID pipe it will flow lots more water

Converting this onto cables , a tiny thin cable will not cope ( Carry high voltage / watts requirements ) where as a bigger cable will

I decided to fit a 3 core 16mm armaflex dedicated cable from my main fuse box into my audio room using all new cable / plug sockets RCD unit

I adopt the same thoughts with speaker cables

Interconnects are all RFC Pluto's

:)

Nice orange Flymo cable...all you will ever need:lol:

[bumpy]

I'm no electrician but have thought this cable malarky through and came to this conclusion

If you have a 8mm ID pipe it will flow " X " water over a set period of time , If you use a 22mm ID pipe it will flow lots more water

Converting this onto cables , a tiny thin cable will not cope ( Carry high voltage / watts requirements ) where as a bigger cable will

I decided to fit a 3 core 16mm armaflex dedicated cable from my main fuse box into my audio room using all new cable / plug sockets RCD unit

I adopt the same thoughts with speaker cables

Interconnects are all RFC Pluto's

:)

I'm not sure this is a good analogy. Water is flowing through an 'empty' pipe and can be scaled relative to pipe dimensions.

BUT, electrons have to flow through different metals, containing different trace impurities with different crystalline structures and different insulation with different dielectric constants. It is also subject to external (electrical) interference. - a much more complex situation by far.

[Audio Al]

As said i'm no sparks , but new bigger cabling makes sense :)

[Audio Al]

Nice orange Flymo cable...all you will ever need:lol:

Have you tried the " Signature " range :D

[Gordon Steadman]

Have you tried the " Signature " range :D
Yup...Peter Walker special edition:eyebrows:

[pgarrish]

I'm thinking specifically of the 'digital' leads I've tried between my CD transport and DAC. Some quite expensive examples sounding less good than home made ones. I do have an old Deltec item that sounds very good. Better than a fairly costly Townshend one.

That's the point though - it's a square wave being sent so it's not really a digital signal, so the cable and (more importantly for spdif) interface with the socket have an impact on the accuracy of that square wave, and hence the signal being received. If it was a computer network or USB connection you'd assume the data was encoded so nothing got lost. Rather bizarrely I found USB didn't sound as good... perhaps the DAC made a mess of decoding it

[fatmarley]

Right, I've had a few and could be talking out of my arse (the amount of times I've woken up and shook my head in disbelief of what crap I wrote the night before)

Anyway - Star earthing my old Naim preamp definitely made an improvement, and the way I saw it was those little electrons don't know where they are going, are a bit thick and easily get lost. In my old preamp I used chunky earth returns made of silver cable and used silver solder, thinking that would stop them doubling back on themselves or going the wrong way and messing up my precious signal. My thinking was to give them an easy route to escape.

[bumpy]

Right, I've had a few and could be talking out of my arse (the amount of times I've woken up and shook my head in disbelief of what crap I wrote the night before)

Anyway - Star earthing my old Naim preamp definitely made an improvement, and the way I saw it was those little electrons don't know where they are going, are a bit thick and easily get lost. In my old preamp I used chunky earth returns made of silver cable and used silver solder, thinking that would stop them doubling back on themselves or going the wrong way and messing up my precious signal. My thinking was to give them an easy route to escape.

Did your silver wire go right back to the mains plug in the wall?

[fatmarley]

Did your silver wire go right back to the mains plug in the wall?

No, only used It In the preamp.

[BilliumB]

Good grounding, and a cables ability to ground noise as quickly, and efficiently as posible is also worth noting, as far as perceived sonic diffrences between cables are concerned.

Anthony - do you have any thoughts on the best cable to link the power socket back to the consumer unit (and earth spike etc on a TT system)? It seems to me that while the standard twin and earth (and 16 mm2 cable to the earth spike are required for safety reasons, the thin earth core in twin and earth is unlikely to provide a low impedance path to earth to higher frequency noise on audio kit.

Cheers. Bill

[Arkless Electronics]

If changing cables makes someone happy, there's little point in arguing against it. Personally, the last 1m of cable from the power station to my connected piece of kit, I believe, should make no difference at all unless there's some weird electrical interaction with the kit's power supply, or fault with it, where altering 1m of LCR parameters has an audible effect by altering the power supply in some magical way. Personally I've never heard any real audible effects of swapping any mains cable and nor do I believe it should make any difference, and I only ever bother using £1.99 kettle leads now. What I or others think doesn't matter as much as what the end user thinks and does. Like a lot of things Hifi related, its part of the fun of experimenting for yourself and finding what you think works best for you.

+100000000

[anthonyTD]

Hi Bill,
Sorry for late reply,
Its very difficult to give recommendations where mains voltages, and their associated parts are concerned for obvious safety reasons, but where earth is concerned, the lower you can get the resistance to ground [while maintaining the safety of your mains supply, within the legal requirements] the better!
Hope this helps.
A...


Anthony - do you have any thoughts on the best cable to link the power socket back to the consumer unit (and earth spike etc on a TT system)? It seems to me that while the standard twin and earth (and 16 mm2 cable to the earth spike are required for safety reasons, the thin earth core in twin and earth is unlikely to provide a low impedance path to earth to higher frequency noise on audio kit.

Cheers. Bill

[BilliumB]

Hi Anthony - yes, I understand that, I was wondering whether a fairly thick coax cable in parallel with the normal safety earth wire might provide a lower impedance path to higher frequency noise on the equipment ground. I was thinking of connecting the core and screen at the earth spike / CU end, but just the core at the kit end. Any thoughts?

Cheers Bill