A not too expensive MC cartridge for classical music

[mscili]

Good evening everyone,

I'm new here, this is my first post after the presentation ones. I'm a classical musician myself and I listen (on LPs) almost only to classical music, with lots of piano and chamber music, but also "big" symphonic and (a little less) opera repertoire. Over time I've found that, before any considerations about tonal colour, the cartridge I use must have absolutely excellent tracking up to the inner grooves, and it must be able to keep a good transparency when the music is complex. I don't need big impact, I look much more for details, even when the music is "big" - I find life in the details, not in the "groove".

Last year I had the chance to get a Townshend Rock Reference with the Excalibur tonearm, and I'm very happy about how it made a humble Technics P22 cartridge (on a p-mount adapter...) sound much better then any other turntable I tried it on. Now it's time to go for something better: maybe my first MC, to go into the MC preamp of the ION Obelisk 3x.

The subject "Hana SL vs AT-33PTG/II" has been already discussed here, but I'd be happy to ask about it again, taking into account the destination as a "classical music" cartridge. I can listen to the Hana (maybe even in my system, as a final check before buying it), but I have no chance to listen to the AT (which is also some 20-25% cheaper and has slightly better specifications). I may also go a bit higher with the budget and consider a ZXY R50, a Benz ACE, Dynavector 20X or an Ortofon Quintet Black... If from general experience this would be an obviously wiser choice.

I'd be happy to get some suggestions from the community here, to help to take a good decision and somehow to share a bit the process of deciding...

Thanks to everyone, and I hope I'll soon be able to contribute more myself to the discussion in the forum!

Marco

[walpurgis]

Hi Marco. Nice to see you getting involved here.

I have had many MCs, but not used the Hana or AT-33.

I have owned a couple of ZYX R50 Bloom cartridges and they do classical music superbly. The scale and depth is outstanding and there is genuine transparency, with fine imaging, allowing you to pinpoint various instruments in the soundstage. Very impressive and certainly a bargain at the price in my opinion.

I still have an R50, but was impressed enough to invest in three more ZYX MCs costing rather more and they are great. But the funny thing is, the R50 is as enjoyable as any through its sheer 'musicality'.

If you can get a demo anywhere, I'm sure you would be impressed.

[petrat]

IME, an AT-33PTG/II would fit your requirements well ... refined and detailed. It's also pretty 'normal' in its requirements re. arm and phonostage. I think you'd need to go to something like an Ortofon Cadenza Black to get a significant improvement over it.

If you're open to sticking with a moving magnet, the Ortofon 2M Black would also be a good choice for your musical preferences, and your requirement for good detail retrieval. Although it ain't exactly beer-money, I would rate it better than most mid-price moving coils, and the replacable stylus might help with long-term running costs if you listen a lot.

[CageyH]

I have both, and prefer the AT33PTG/II - as did another forum member on my recent visit.
To be honest, you would probably be happy with either.

[hifi_dave]

Hana, without a doubt. Excellent value for money. They could put a fancy label on the front, pack in a funky box and they could get away with charging double.

[carruthersesq]

Another vote for the AT33ptg, fab cartridge. I have tried several others but returned to it.

[julesd68]

I listen to a lot of classical music on vinyl and use the AT33PTG/II.

I find it superb - it's a very honest cart that reveals the different 'house sounds' of HMV / DG / Decca etc like no other cartridge I have had before.
It will only sound harsh if the recording is made that way.

Can't recommend it enough for that kind of money. I use mine with a Fidelity Research SUT which is a great partner.

[rubber duck]

If you want tonal colour and tracking I would recommend the Hana. I use an SH and this has tracked the inner grooves of my classical piano LPs cleanly, and these are around 30min long sides. Not heard the AT33 under controlled conditions so can't comment on this. Another cart I was impressed with is the Ortofon Quintet Blue, especially if you listen mainly to classical. Scott Nangle on this forum offers a good deal on this.

[DSJR]

Aren't the AT33 series rather expensive? I thought the OP (welcome by the way) wanted an inexpensive one?

The ONE thing that will limit any cartridge I'm afraid is the Ion amp and that's the thing I'd consider changing myself, as memories of these amps were of a rather hard and ringing tone - maybe they changed, but we couldn't sell them...

The AT's seem to track well, but the Hana has hidden pedigree and will be ignored here purely because nobody's tried one and distrusts the brand. The SAE? designs that preceded the current Hana range were well liked I recall...

[rubber duck]

the Hana has hidden pedigree and will be ignored here purely because nobody's tried one and distrusts the brand

hmm, several forum members already use this and the reviews have all been positive.

[mscili]

Wow, thanks, this is a lot of helpful information and advice. Of course going in many different directions... :)

Somehow, the question going through my mind now, for those who know both the the Hana SL and the AT-33PTG, would be... What do you think is less good on the AT (or on the Hana) and makes you choose the other one? Sometimes speaking about limitations (and not about qualities) can result in clearer understanding of the exact point we are focusing on. Of course it's pretty clear that both cartridges are good products, it's just about trying to go for the "best" option for what I'm looking for.

I know that my system has other limitations (in some ways maybe the amplifier, in other ways for sure the loudspeakers), but I have to start somewhere, and since my present cartridge is really an "emergency solution", it makes sense to start from here.

Again many thanks to everyone!

[Avinunca1]

Hana, without a doubt. Excellent value for money. They could put a fancy label on the front, pack in a funky box and they could get away with charging double.

Is it still such good value though. It went up in price some 25% almost overnight. I was going to buy one when they were £440 or so.

[RobbieGong]

Loved my mm 2M Black which I found to be superb for a balanced but detailed sound with great timbre, texture of instruments, horns are as lifelike as anything.
It caused me to try my first mc, it's bigger sibling the Quintet Black which I find has the same great attributes of the 2M Black but even better, more transparent and even more refined - an excellent cartridge that wont be going anywhere soon :)
It's been called 'an audiophile bargain' at £649 but might be out of your budget. I got lucky and paid a lot less for mine ;)

[rdpx]

A friend of mine just bought a Hana SL and he is extremely happy with it, judging from the progressively more delirious texts I have been receiving today.

[DSJR]

Prices of audio gear are going to rocket in the New Year as the drop in Stirling value works its way through. So much gear and component parts are imported from the far east and the US. Sad, but true for the likes of us. Maybe the very Top End won't suffer as the seriously wealthy who buy their audio toys from the likes of KJ W1, have enough of a wealth buffer to accommodate it.

[struth]

Will help the secondhand market price when selling though, within uk. And maybe overseas too. Pound has maybe been over valued anyways, and its gonna get cut.

[hifi_dave]

Is it still such good value though. It went up in price some 25% almost overnight. I was going to buy one when they were £440 or so.

Yes, it is, when you consider build, performance and sound. It's still on the bottom rung pricewise for moving coil cartidges and could easily sell for 1K if packaged more exotically.

The Pound v Yen is not good at the moment, so prepare for anything Japanese to leap in price. Similarly with anything from Europe. Just had an Absolute Sounds price list through and the rises are depressing.

[DSJR]

Even before this, cartridges like the 10XV have gone up so much in price, yet production costs would have been written off decades ago (IV to V was mounting plate size more than anything else). Liked still, but it used to be the same price of the DL110, had already increased to £255 in 2002 or so, when the DL110 was still £79 or so, and is now five hundred quid (really? - http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/dynavector-dv-10x5-cartridge-5108.aspx) and performance is similar level and certainly no better than a DL110 in my experience.

[mscili]

I'm back... With a Hana SL at home, for a one week trial period! Incredibly nice service from the audio shop where I bought the used Rock Reference last year.

Up to now, I have been listening to it way too little to express any comment, but a new question comes to my mind: it wants "more than 400 ohm" on the preamplifier input. Ok, that makes me curious to know with which phono stage and with which settings you think this cart gives its best...!

I'll post my impressions about it soon.

Thanks a lot!

Marco

[Jimbo]

Good to have a dealer who will allow you to try an MC cartridge on trial, not many of them round here!

Will be interested in your assessment of the Hana SL as it has been on my radar for sometime, however I think the AT33Ptg would probably suit my system better. Good luck matching loading etc with your phono stage.

[mscili]

Good evening!

So, now I had time to try out the Hana SL on my Townshend Rock Reference with Excalibur arm. Everything connected to a ION Obelisk 3X, an with my Onkyo Q-1 loudspeakers. Unusual conbination, I know!

The first important point: I had to modify the MC phono stage of the Obelisk in oder to match the requirements of the Hana. On the documentation in the internet it's written that the MC card has an input impedance of 22 Ohm... On mine, which I bought second hand years ago, someone had already switched the resistors to 100 Ohm. And with 100 Ohm the Hana doesn't work, it's way too dark, completely wrong. So I removed the 100 Ohm resistors and I put 470 Ohm ones. Maybe not the really ideal setting, but definitely a working one (the manufacturer writes >400 Ohm).

So I started to listen... Mozart, piano concerto K 537, Harnoncourt / Gulda (Teldec DMM). I thought my setup with the ION and the Onkyo Q-1s was a bit light on the bass: well, not any more (!?). Very big sound with strong dynamic contrasts, very present low register but always articulated and understandable (timpani!) and never disturbing the rest of the spectrum, pleasant and attractive reproduction of the orchestral colours, extremely close and present solo piano, with all the violence and energy of Gulda's articulation and accents, but always warm (wood, not metal). Yes, a powerful big Steinway D and a pianist playing for a big hall (with the microphones quite close to the piano). We are in a nice big hall, with quite warm reverberation. Perfect tracking to the end of the side.

Schubert, a few Lieder from Winterreise, Fischer-Dieskau with Brendel (Philips) and with Gerald Moore (DGG)... I'd say, probably the best of all I tried up to now. Voice, piano (articulation, resonance, space), consonants, breath, everything is there and real, I get involved to the point of physical connection with the performer, I cannot just sit relaxed anymore, I am on the edge of the chair. The voice of the younger Fischer-Dieskau with Moore, the older with Brendel. Hard to imagine it sounding better. Perfect tracking also on passages where I thought my records were a bit worn out.

Strauss, Lieder, Jessie Norman (and Schubert, Lieder, Fassbaender)... Even if the piano sounds very clear, some limitations in the reproduction of the high register appear. Tracking is perfect, but overtones are missing, vowels have a tendency of sounding all the same. This is not ok, and it's not a detail. It's possible that my LPs are not in perfect shape, but I remember having heard more clarity and definition on these records (with a humble Technics MM cart fitted with a Jico SAS stylus, sounding in every other aspect much worse than the Hana). Is it the cartrige's limitation, or is it maybe something with the phono stage of the Obelisk...?

Beethoven, Sonatas for violin and piano, Kremer / Argerich (DGG). Very good. Really good! Very real and true sound from both instruments. Speed!

Schumann, different pieces for piano solo, Arrau (Philips). Very powerful, very big, but almost artificially dark and massive, sometimes a bit undefined in the piano passages... Listenable, but not very convincing... (Some Beethoven played by Brendel also on Philips sounds a bit similar).

Bach, Mass in B-Minor (Kyrie), Harnoncourt (Teldec NOT DMM). Oh! Definitely a recording made with many many microphones. Funny disposition of instruments and soloists. Very light in the bass (!), in general it feels like they took care to mix the recording in a pseudo-transparent way. But I hear the recording as it is... Very good tracking until the end of the side.

Schumann, String quartet in F major, Quartetto Italiano (Philips). We are again in a warm hall, but a very nice one. Very good transparency of all the voices, at the same time wonderfully natural mix of the four instruments. Good!

Wagner, Meistersinger, final of 2nd act, Karajan (EMI)... Terribly loud and complicated passage at the end of a long LP side. The compression is on the LP and is frustrating, but there is basically no mistracking and the whole is listenable... Maybe it's possible to do better, but the Hana is not bad at all.

Ok... I listened also to other things, in general the impression is very positive, just with some difficulties on the higher part of the spectrum. Something is missing there and I would like to have that too. Maybe changing the loading to 1KOhm would improve the situation? I don't have time to try that in the next days, unfortunately (soldering and so on). Everything should stay the same, just add a little extension on top. Any comments, any ideas? On Tuesday or Wednesday I should say if I buy the cartridge or not... I still have time to think a bit and consider different options...

Thanks, good night!
Marco

[Jimbo]

The Shibata stylus is a superb tracker and digs out great detail and nuances. Sounds like the Hana SL doing a lot of things right however you mentioned you wanted a bit more top extension? Therefore I would strongly recommend you try the AT33PTGii if you can?

[mscili]

Yes, the AT33PTG II is the strongest second candidate, but unfortunately I cannot try it before buying... So it would mean to give back the Hana and buy the AT, hoping that it fits as well as expected. I'm a bit hesitating, because I'm afraid that I may loose too much of the good sides of the Hana by switching to the AT33PTG. Are they really so similar, with only a little bit a different top end? Or, in other terms, is the middle and lower part of the spectrum with the AT33PTG as convincing, coherent and "musical" as with the Hana SL...?

[helma]

I have a Benz MC20E-2L which was also made by Excel. It's an old design and besides having a bonded elliptical stylus I imagine it's also built to a cheaper standard than the Hanas - however the generator I believe might be a close cousin at least. It has similar loading recommendations ( > 400ohm) and I played around with loading on mine quite a bit at some point. As I remember 220 ohms was clearly too low, 470 was already pretty good but both 680 and 1k were clearly better. I think I probably wasn't able to perceive meaningul differences between 680 ohm and 1k or just couldn't decide which one was better.

Granted, it's a different cartridge but still, based on that I'd recommended trying the Hana with a higher load up to 1 kOhm. Interestingly for whatever reason the Benz didn't seem nearly as fussy about loading when using a SUT.

[mscili]

Thanks, that is very interesting information for me. So I'm probably testing the Hana with a little bit too low load (kind of "just ok"), and there is potential for improvement exactly in the area I would like it to improve. So, chances that tomorrow I'll go and buy it are getting higher...

(In many ways, I really like the idea of buying something that I was allowed to test extensively by a very helpful dealer. Cartridges are basically the only hi-fi thing I can and must buy not second hand, so...).

[mscili]

So: yes, I bought the Hana SL. The list of the things it does really wonderfully is so long, that I really want to keep it. It makes good recordings sound wonderful, and it makes less good ones (like many Deutsche Grammophon pressings from the 70s...) sound limited, but still musically interesting (as opposed to unbearable, which is the case with some other carts). I'm happy, now I start to really enjoy the qualities of the Rock Reference, which I got last year...

Many thanks to everyone on this forum, your advice has helped a lot!