Audiomods V Tonearm vs. Transfi Terminator T3Pro

[sbank]

Hi Guys,

My first post here aside from the welcoming welcomes.

So pondering possibilities as I divest from my big VPI belt drive beast to free up funds and leaning towards going with an SL1200 project. As I read up here and elsewhere on SL1200 mods my thinking is that if I choose this route I will jump right in with bearing replacement(Mike New or Funk), power supply upgrade(probably KAB), feet(Isonoe or Star Sound Audiopoints), mat(too damn many options!) and tonearm replacement. After reading many positives of the similarly priced Audiomods V Tonearm & Transfi Terminator T3Pro I was wondering if anyone has done any comparative listening between them?

A few other points that might be worth mentioning:

- I own a number of 45rpm and other heavyweight reissue LPs. In my system, visitors & I clearly hear benefits of easily repeatable VTA which I typically adjust by having 3 numerical preferred settings for 200g, 180g and conventional LPs, and occasionally adjusting by ear from there. My current tonearm allows for on-the-fly adjustment which I don't think is really needed as long as it can easily be set before lowering the arm.

- Current cartridge is van den hul Colibri XGP which is very light at under 6g. If the tonearm is a good match, terrific, but selling the Colibri and trying something else might be fun. I am a bit surprised that many here seem to prefer arms with easily changeable headshells and rotating a stable of cartridges. My approach has always been towards eliminating the connection points of removable headshells makes sense and pooling my resources towards one best all-around cart at whatever budget. I don't have too many mono LPs, so no mono cart is needed.

- Current Aqvox phono stage has tons of flexibility in terms of gain options and impedance matching, so no issues there. One concern is that the inputs are balanced XLR only. My Aqvox cable has RCAs at the turntable end and XLRs to the phono stage. Any tonearm with "continuous run of wire from cart to plugs" would need to be wired with XLRs if that's an option or would require RCA/XLR adapters which potentially add EMI/RFI. This point argues in favor of the Transfi unless I am missing something.

So at this point I'm thinking one of these arms would be a better fit for me than other contenders, mainly Jelco or SME309. I admit some concern about the setup and user-friendliness of the Transfi, as a friend who owns one seems to have issues with it on many occasions when I've wanted to listen. Overall he is happy with it, but my perception on a small number of data points is that his has been finicky even after initial setup. OTOH, its design seems a bit of genius and great value. I am not a technical savant, but having lived with many valve(us Yanks call them "tube") amps and vintage electrostatics I am a proven glutton for punishment.

Any advice on which arm might make a better choice for me? Thanks in advance.

[YNWaN]

The Transfi is, in my view, inherently flawed. Is is based on an arm intended as a DIY project and in that respect is cunning in its design. However, the air bearing really should be of a constrained nature (not just gravity acting on mass) and even the slightest variation from level will apply huge horizontal forces.

XLR/RCA adaptors won't add EMI/RFI - what makes you think they would? In any case, it is easy enough to fit XLRs to any potential phono cable.

[Mikeandvan]

I read that someone preferred £15 isolation feet to the much more expensive isos

[YNWaN]

Here is the original arm that the transfi has taken its ideas from:

http://n4rp.com/airbearingarm.html

Originally developed by Poul Ladegaard.

[sbank]

The Transfi is, in my view, inherently flawed. the air bearing really should be of a constrained nature (not just gravity acting on mass) and even the slightest variation from level will apply huge horizontal forces.

XLR/RCA adaptors won't add EMI/RFI - what makes you think they would?

In practice with the Transfi is variations from level an issue? I haven't seen any comments yet indicating that has been a problem for any users.

Regarding XLR/RCA adapters, IMHE, every additional interface adds potential for EMI/RFI, especially in dealing with low level phono signals. Hence, so many tonearm designs with single runs from end to end. Having lived a few hundreds yards from a radio tower I've long dealt with fighting EMI/RFI with a variety of tube and solid state phono stages. Unless building a copper Faraday cage around the room (my wife wouldn't appreciate that), I think there is potential noise-fighting benefit to avoiding adapters if a reasonable alternative is an option.

[YNWaN]

EMI/RFI issues likely to be associated with the use of valve equipment are in another league of probability compared to the issues likely (or unlikely) to occur with RCA/BBC adaptors. In any case, as I wrote before, it's easy enough to fit BNC connectors instead of RCAs - I'm surprised you don't know this.

Air bearing arms are far from the panacea that some manufacturers would have you believe. They can be done well, but at a cost and even then they still struggle to overcome the problems they introduce.

I've seen and heard the Transfi arm a number of times and on three different turntables. In every case it was very temperamental and keen on leaving the groove at the slightest opportunity.

[sbank]

EMI/RFI issues likely to be associated with the use of valve equipment are in another league of probability compared to the issues likely (or unlikely) to occur with RCA/BBC adaptors. In any case, as I wrote before, it's easy enough to fit BNC connectors instead of RCAs - I'm surprised you don't know this.
My experience has been that valve phono stages are certainly more noise-prone than ss ones, but I do know plenty who haven't had any trouble with their valve phono stages in their homes, but we are straying from the topic of the pros/cons of these two tonearms for my situation.

Just because I mentioned having to change plugs as a possibility doesn't mean that I don't know "it's easy" to do so. A bit condescending and disappointing, Mark. That comment surprised me and doesn't really further the conversation.

[sbank]

I've seen and heard the Transfi arm a number of times and on three different turntables. In every case it was very temperamental and keen on leaving the groove at the slightest opportunity.

Thank you, that is very helpful information. I appreciate you sharing it. Do others here have similar or opposing experience?

[Clive]

Thank you, that is very helpful information. I appreciate you sharing it. Do others here have similar or opposing experience?
Hi Spencer, I'll happy contribute my thoughts.

Mark has experienced my T3Pro several years ago. I suspect this may have taken place a couple of times, probably when it was on my 301 and later on my Salvation. I did indeed have an issue with the stylus jumping out of the groove if it hit a relatively minor piece of dirt. This was not the fault of the arm. Here's what transpired:

- it only ever occurred with my London Reference, not with several other cartridges I've used
- Deccas/Londons are renowned for being picky about less than scrupulously clean records
- the culprit was eventually tracked down to the cantilever of my London Reference

I had John Wright give my Reference a check up as the Paratrace tip had suddenly shown signs of wear (after a few years). John replaced both the tip and cantilever as he receives the Paratrace tips already attached to the cantilever. Now miraculously the Reference is very well behaved with no hint of groove jumping. John says there was something not right about the original cantilever....what it was I don't know.

So what about all this level stuff I hear you ask. Firstly it's important to realise that some of what most of us learnt about setting up pivoted arms is not relevant with other aspects being more critical. None of it is rocket science, it's common sense. Pivoted arms are mounted in such a way that they are almost bound to end up level or close to level but if it doesn't....well who checks for this with a pivoted arm? The T3Pro "manifold" can be adjusted to be perfectly level, there is azimuth adjustment too. What I do is to level the deck using a sensitive bubble level, then I place the bubble level on the manifold and level that. Simples. Leveling lasts a long time, at least several months; if it's out you notice the stylus doesn't drop quickly into the groove on the LP lead-in - this is something I've experienced with pivoted arms but there's no simple adjustment to correct the issue.

[Ammonite Audio]

The levelling procedure that Clive describes above is what everyone should be doing when setting up a tonearm, whether pivoted or linear tracking. If a linear tracker is not set truly level, then the sled will wish to slide downhill, imparting a potentially large sideways force on the stylus that makes bias correction in conventional pivoted arms feel like a gentle waft from a gnat's wing. Bias correction is something that merits discussion in itself, and something that linear trackers don't need, of course. The lack of tracing error in a good linear tracker is clearly a Good Thing, but the unfortunate truth is that eliminating such errors does not guarantee a decent sounding arm. The inherent compromises in a pivoted arm more often result in better sound, at more approchable prices, with far more convenient operation.

Regarding Paratrace tips, I have noticed that they do wear quickly, and this was confirmed to me by ESCo a gew years ago when a cartridge that they had re-tipped needed a new tip after only a year or so. ESCo do state a very modest number of hours life for the Paratrace, which does not compare very favourably with other makers' claims.

[Packgrog]

On the other side of the equation, I am also in the Philly area, and currently have a Technics with Isonoe feet, Achromat, and Audiomods Classic arm that I've been experimenting with. I'm also acquainted with a couple of people who use Terminator arms and the same cartridge that I use. Both arms are going to be excellent for the price, but both also have their degree of "fiddly". I have avoided the Terminator because it seems likely MORE fiddly, is a little more expensive, and I'm wary of exposed tonearm wires that my cats might get curious about and bite through (one of my cats got too close when I swapped my arm between decks and bit clean through my ground wire, which fortunately doesn't need the same kind of perfect uninterrupted connection as signal wires and was easily fixed). My available funds took a hit recently, so my planned experimentations with bearings and power mods got paused.

If you'd like to do some joint experimentation with various parts, perhaps we could both benefit. I primarily archive my vinyl to digital for office and mobile listening, which also allows me to more easily A/B test the effects of different mods. Let me know if you would be interested in equipment mod demoing at some point.

[sbank]

On the other side of the equation, I am also in the Philly area...
If you'd like to do some joint experimentation with various parts, perhaps we could both benefit. I primarily archive my vinyl to digital for office and mobile listening, which also allows me to more easily A/B test the effects of different mods. Let me know if you would be interested in equipment mod demoing at some point.
Thanks, yes. I will PM you in the near future, after settling some other system issues.

[sbank]

So thus far oversimplification of replies boils down to:
1 thinks Terminator is flawed
1 Terminator owner explained problems with a cartridge that first guy witnessed, but seems to like his Terminator
1 Audiomods owner says it's a bit fiddly but less so than Terminator
Surely some others have experience with these arms & opinions on how they fair against each other and others in the price range? Thanks everyone.

[YNWaN]

I recommend that anyone interested looks at the commercial offerings devised and considers why they are all constrained bearing designs whilst this relies on copying a DIY 'open source' design.

[sbank]

I recommend that anyone interested looks at the commercial offerings devised and considers why they are all constrained bearing designs whilst this relies on copying a DIY 'open source' design.
Thanks much. So which alternative(s) would you recommend in the same price range? Have you heard the Audiomods arm and if so any opinion on it?

[Clive]

You could look at this:

http://www.thecartridgeman.com/conductor.htm

Constrained?

As for "copied" well, the T3Pro uses a manifold with multiple air holes. The manifold for the T3Pro is inverted, wands are very different, indeed check the images of the original arm, it does look very different. I'd say "inspired by" rather than copied. There's a lot more development that's gone into the T3Pro than is obvious to the untrained eye.

[WOStantonCS100]

I've been using a TransFi T3 Pro Terminator for several years, now. No issues. It requires careful setup when swapping carts; but, no issues. As Clive points out, the amount of control one has over all parameters, means I can get critically precise alignment (including azimuth) with any cart in my stable. No heavy decisions about which is best, Baerwald, Stevenson, etc. No protractor at all; just a straight line. Trackability, even with a flea tracker (1.25 grams) is the best I've experienced in my system, playing notably warped records. My current favorite cart tracks at approx. 3.18 grams. Most importantly, the sonic dividends pour forth in spades. Not cartridge specific; but, especially with linear type styli, the ability to conceal which track is playing is perhaps it's most beguiling aspect. Even with albums I know well, I get so engrossed in the music that I forget the last song of the side is playing. IGD is the lowest I've experienced. I've recently added a valve, in the listening room, so I can more precisely, and on a whim, control the air flow. Necessity? No. But, like I said... if you're a bit OCD you can do it. If you're the kind to want to change VTA with each LP, you can do it. Honestly, except for changing carts, this is just as much a set it and forget it arm as any pivoted arm. I adjust precisely for the cart I'll be using, then let it ride.

Without a doubt, my favorite feature of this arm is the "lack" of anti-skating. It's not needed. However, if you're transcribing tough discs and need a little more pressure on the groove wall (say, to overcome a stubborn skip), you can purposefully tilt the sled. Additionally, carts that I previously thought had a channel imbalance now show near perfect channel balance (within .1 db). Getting anal about it, I've recorded test records to hi-res wav and then analyzed the recording in my DAW.

As far as the concept and build quality, I'd have to disagree with anyone who would lump this in with other DIY projects. Is it as pretty as an Ikeda? No. Nevertheless, it is devoid of the things that scream amateur. What it is, is purposefully built and reminds me a bit of some SAEC arms, in that regard; the no-nonsense, we came to play, ideology.

The Audiomods arm? Can't say. Don't own one. However, that too looks like they have taken the Rega concept and run with it in the same way Vic took the Ladegaard concept and ran with it. You could always just own one of each.

[Clive]

Changing cartridges on a T3Pro is a touch fiddly though to compensate alignment is so easy and precision is really straightforward to achieve vs the 2 null points method of pivoted arms. I only use 2 cartridges with the T3Pro so I have 2 wands, all I need to do is swap the wands over, reset VTA and I'm set. With spare wands it is easy to swap cartridges unless you have loads of cartridges and only a couple of wands....which sounds like your situation Biff.

[Packgrog]

Cool info, WOStantonCS100! Do you use the Terminator on a Technics 1200? I've been curious about how that pairing would work. I'm guessing not too different from how the Audiomods works on it (ie: there are issues with the deck itself holding back performance).

Slightly off-topic, I'm surprised to see you using a Stanton 680 series with the Terminator. I still have a 680EL that came with my first Technics, and while I loved how punchy it was, it definitely lacked the air and grace of even a modest MC like the Denon DL-110. I never did try the Jico Shibata with it, as I hated the Jico elliptical, and I'd read that the Jico Shibata wasn't voiced correctly for the 680 series. Thoughts on that?

One of the people that I've chatted with that has used the Terminator extensively (and who got me hooked on the AT33PTG/II and Musical Surroundings phono preamps) used quite a number of different cartridges with the arm, including a couple of Zyx cartridges, and some of them still had tracking issues. Not something that you'd expect with a tangential arm. Not sure if setup was a factor there, or the cartridges themselves just don't track as well regardless of arm. He's since switched to a AT33Sa which apparently tracks things on the Terminator that even the PTG/II couldn't do without distortion.

There are certainly a number of reasons that I haven't gone for a Terminator. First of all, I already had the TecnoDec, which only supports Rega mounts, and even if the Terminator can be mounted in Rega mounting holes, the TecnoDec is too low mass to balance the Terminator effectively. Aside from that, I simply found a good deal (at the time) for the Audiomods Classic. I'm also simply more familiar with Rega-style arms, the Audiomods is fiddly enough compared to other arms that I've used, and the Terminator seems likely to be even more fussy to set up. And then there's the whole "cats wanting to chew on small wires" issue that also makes me wary of VPIs without covers.

But I've never heard anyone call the Terminator "amateur-looking" before. It always looked very purposefully designed to me. Appearance-wise it seems a perfect match for something like the Technics. It may not be "pretty", but it looks professional and smart. The Audiomods does, perhaps accidentally, have a slightly more artistic look thanks to pattern of the holes in the tonearm, but it also still has that purposeful, professional machinery feel, especially the micrometer version that I'm still pining after (I hope these favorable exchange rates hold out long enough for my finances to recover from this year's crazy expenses).

It's also worth noting that both Vic from Trans-Fi and Jeff from Audiomods have excellent customer service, and are constantly working to improve their products. You really can't go wrong with either product, IMO. If you swap cartridges a lot, the Terminator would probably be better due to ease of swapping wands. The Audiomods would be simpler for initial setup and more familiar if you're not accustomed to tangential arms, and is also a bit less expensive. Both sound superb.

[WOStantonCS100]

Changing cartridges on a T3Pro is a touch fiddly though to compensate alignment is so easy and precision is really straightforward to achieve vs the 2 null points method of pivoted arms. I only use 2 cartridges with the T3Pro so I have 2 wands, all I need to do is swap the wands over, reset VTA and I'm set. With spare wands it is easy to swap cartridges unless you have loads of cartridges and only a couple of wands....which sounds like your situation Biff.

Hey Clive, Actually, I specifically asked Vic for a wand (really just a collar w/ pivot) that would accommodate "normal" head shells and that is what he supplied. So, changing carts is no more difficult than it is on any other arm with an SME type coupling. It also allows me to use integrated head shell carts with the T3. At some point I may get a wand or two in order to assess the sonic difference. I would have to settle on a cartridge I like so much that, at least, I'd have it mounted 80% of the time. I'd also have to relinquish my cart-swapper badge, at that point. :eek: ;)

[WOStantonCS100]

Cool info, WOStantonCS100! Do you use the Terminator on a Technics 1200? I've been curious about how that pairing would work. I'm guessing not too different from how the Audiomods works on it (ie: there are issues with the deck itself holding back performance).

Slightly off-topic, I'm surprised to see you using a Stanton 680 series with the Terminator. I still have a 680EL that came with my first Technics, and while I loved how punchy it was, it definitely lacked the air and grace of even a modest MC like the Denon DL-110. I never did try the Jico Shibata with it, as I hated the Jico elliptical, and I'd read that the Jico Shibata wasn't voiced correctly for the 680 series. Thoughts on that?

One of the people that I've chatted with that has used the Terminator extensively (and who got me hooked on the AT33PTG/II and Musical Surroundings phono preamps) used quite a number of different cartridges with the arm, including a couple of Zyx cartridges, and some of them still had tracking issues. Not something that you'd expect with a tangential arm. Not sure if setup was a factor there, or the cartridges themselves just don't track as well regardless of arm. He's since switched to a AT33Sa which apparently tracks things on the Terminator that even the PTG/II couldn't do without distortion.

There are certainly a number of reasons that I haven't gone for a Terminator. First of all, I already had the TecnoDec, which only supports Rega mounts, and even if the Terminator can be mounted in Rega mounting holes, the TecnoDec is too low mass to balance the Terminator effectively. Aside from that, I simply found a good deal (at the time) for the Audiomods Classic. I'm also simply more familiar with Rega-style arms, the Audiomods is fiddly enough compared to other arms that I've used, and the Terminator seems likely to be even more fussy to set up. And then there's the whole "cats wanting to chew on small wires" issue that also makes me wary of VPIs without covers.

But I've never heard anyone call the Terminator "amateur-looking" before. It always looked very purposefully designed to me. Appearance-wise it seems a perfect match for something like the Technics. It may not be "pretty", but it looks professional and smart. The Audiomods does, perhaps accidentally, have a slightly more artistic look thanks to pattern of the holes in the tonearm, but it also still has that purposeful, professional machinery feel, especially the micrometer version that I'm still pining after (I hope these favorable exchange rates hold out long enough for my finances to recover from this year's crazy expenses).

It's also worth noting that both Vic from Trans-Fi and Jeff from Audiomods have excellent customer service, and are constantly working to improve their products. You really can't go wrong with either product, IMO. If you swap cartridges a lot, the Terminator would probably be better due to ease of swapping wands. The Audiomods would be simpler for initial setup and more familiar if you're not accustomed to tangential arms, and is also a bit less expensive. Both sound superb.

Yes, I now have the T3 mounted on my main 1200MK2 (with an Origin Live (Rega)) armboard. The deck also has a Mike New Audio bearing; so, it's not quite stock. However, the T3 came first. Even before the bearing upgrade, the T3 was a huge improvement; leap in performance.

I'm surprised I've had a 681EEE mounted for as long as I have now, as well (several months?). Again, however, my 681EEE is not stock. It has a ruby cantilever and nude contour line stylus courtesy of SoundSmith. It is far more detailed and fleshed out than a stock version. It's not an 881 or 890; but, it clearly has, what I consider to be, more realistic timbre along with better transient response. I did not like it at first; it just didn't sound right. It definitely took some break in time. If I want the jaw-drop slam and attack for days, I'm still going with the 881/890; however, the retipped 681 has a nicer midrange which I am really enjoying without losing too much on the extremes. I did try/do have a JICO Urushi Shibata for the 681. It does not track as well nor sound as clear as the SoundSmith, probably for the obvious lack of ruby cantilever.

...more thoughts later...

[Packgrog]

Good to know that the more common Rega armboards work just fine with the Terminator.

Did SoundSmith do a rebuild on an existing 6800, or was it a full custom assembly ala Jico? Also, do compliance figures even matter anymore with the Terminator, and if so, did it change for the 681 with the SoundSmith retip/rebuild? I'm not eager to start swapping cartridges (not so easy with fixed headshell arms like the Audiomods), but it still bothers me that I have the Stanton sitting in a box unused when I really did like aspects of the sound.

I'm in no rush to replace my AT33PTG/II. I LOVE the sound of this cartridge, more than any I've heard (the Sa and EV sound pretty much the same), but replacing it when the stylus wears out could be an expensive prospect, so I'm always curious to explore other options.

[WOStantonCS100]

Good to know that the more common Rega armboards work just fine with the Terminator.

Did SoundSmith do a rebuild on an existing 6800, or was it a full custom assembly ala Jico? Also, do compliance figures even matter anymore with the Terminator, and if so, did it change for the 681 with the SoundSmith retip/rebuild? I'm not eager to start swapping cartridges (not so easy with fixed headshell arms like the Audiomods), but it still bothers me that I have the Stanton sitting in a box unused when I really did like aspects of the sound.

I'm in no rush to replace my AT33PTG/II. I LOVE the sound of this cartridge, more than any I've heard (the Sa and EV sound pretty much the same), but replacing it when the stylus wears out could be an expensive prospect, so I'm always curious to explore other options.

Vic asked me what deck and what armboard I'd be using and tailored the mounting to fit.

From what I understand, SoundSmith doesn't generally rebuild the suspension, just fits their cantilever with stylus. I sent them the original 681 stylus assembly and got back the same... ...with the better cantilever with stylus. I'm tracking the cart at 1.25g, which is the same as I would a stock 681. I know what you mean. I have carts sitting around that I would love to try out. Eventually, I hope to have them all fitted with better cantilevers/styli.

The AT33PTG/II is a great cart. It should be just fine with the T3. This page http://www.trans-fi.com/clientscorner.htm shows someone actually using a PTG with an early version of the Terminator arm. When the stylus does wear out, I would definitely recommend getting it retipped; the cart deserves it IMHO.

[sbank]

Thanks for those comments, guys. It's good to hear Biff's long term experience with the Transfi. I can see the logic in the comment that a bit more setup time work will be rewarded later even if changing carts with multiple wands. If just sticking with one cart the one piece aspect of the Audiomods would be a benefit.
Read Clive's link to the Cartridgeman arm, & having heard multiple high priced Walkers in action, the logic of linear trackers is hard to argue with. No antiskate to mess with and no "broken clocks right twice daily". Definitely plenty of merit in the tangential arm philosophy...

So if I tweak the original question and consider these arms on an SP10 instead of SL1200 does that change your thoughts about these arms or other candidates?

[Clive]

The T3Pro will be great on either deck. The setup for the T3Pro is quicker than for a pivoted arm once you've adjusted to the differences. I'd say go with the arm you prefer for whatever reason.

[WOStantonCS100]

I have to echo Clive. The T3 can be a quicker setup, especially considering no protractors and even the pivot-to-spindle distance does not have to be spot on. I'll fault no one for choosing the Audiomods V or any other tonearm, honestly. It's all good clean fun. No harm done. There are many good choices that will satisfy a diversity of ears.

SP10 or 1200? I don't think it matters. It's down to table preference, at that point. I even had the T3 mounted on my Thorens TD-150 MKII at one point! (Though I do think, in that case, considering the T3 is weightier than the stock arm, stiffer suspension springs would be a good idea for better performance.).

[Clive]

I have one more opinion I want to share. It's the way I see it others may not. If I had the Audiomods I suspect I'd eventually wonder whether I should upgrade the arm. With The T3Pro I have no desire to upgrade to a more expensive arm. Maybe though it's just me but I don't believe the T3Pro is anywhere near holding back the rest of my system. That said I stick by my earlier comment to go with your gut (heart).

[337alant]

the audiomods is a very good arm and I would go for that
I have heard and dont like the faf with the air floating arm, I also think it took the life from a Denon 103 Techy 1210 combo
The Audiomods with an ebony arm board would be the way to go IMO


https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5503/11213855903_f956623303_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/i5VWFa). (https://flic.kr/p/i5VWFa) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr
Alan

[Clive]

the audiomods is a very good arm and I would go for that
I have heard and dont like the faf with the air floating arm, I also think it took the life from a Denon 103 Techy 1210 combo
The Audiomods with an ebony arm board would be the way to go IMO
Fair enough about the "faf" though I think it's more of a learning thing rather than it being much more involved.

Re the 103; the T3Pro is not at all picky about cartridge to arm matching but I'm sure there can be mis-matches. That said I am aware of folks happily using a 103 on a T3Pro. As the one you heard sucked the life out of the sound, my initial feeling is that there wasn't enough air pressure being used but of course it could be various other factors. If the boot were on the other foot and the same comment were made about the Audiomods I'd suspect the arm was too tightly mounted to the deck (ie no decoupling) - I only mention that so as to demonstrate that all arms have setup details which need to be right for the sound to be well...on song.

[337alant]

Clive,
Im sure properly done it works very well but its not for me, I think it looks odd on a techie and the other thing I disliked about it was the audible air pump and having to disguise the plastic accumulator bottle.

Alan

[WOStantonCS100]

Honestly, except for assessing the sonic attributes of these two arms (or better still, the lack there of), everything else falls into an apples to oranges comparison. The Audiomods V setup should be compared to the setup of other 9" pivoted tonearms. Even comparing it to a unipivot would not be quite right. The setup of the T3 should be compared to the setup of other tangential tracking air bearing tonearms. They are inherently different and require inherently different setup procedures.

One of the benefits of the T3 is that the pump can be any number of cheap aquarium pumps, rather than a high pressure, often manufacturer spec'd and pricey one. I have two pumps (one is a spare). Total cost for both under £85. My pump is actually in the attic (controlled by a wall switch) with an air line run into the current listening room (no pump noise). The smoothing tank can be made to look as nice or as inconspicuous as one chooses.

Whether using an Eminent Technologies, Kuzma, Trans-Fi, or other linear air bearing, one is now stepping away from the "norm" (of pivoted arms). I liken it to the move away from solid state to valves. Solid state, for most end users, is plug-n-play. Valves are generally for those who appreciate and prefer the "rituals" that are possible with valve amplification. Neither is wrong; but, they are certainly different animals each with their own rewards.

The Orbe SE has the same problem as the 1200MK2 which is the inability to accept a 12" tonearm (one which by virtue of what it is) tracks grooves with less error than a 9" arm; the Audiomods V and many others. The T3 solves that problem without having to structurally modify either turntable, with even better tracking than a 12" arm. The setup involved is justified by the resulting sound IMHO. I actually re-plinthed an SL-1500MK2, specifically to accommodate a 12" tonearm only to realize that the T3 still sound better and could be easily fitted to... ...just about any plinth whether or not it was 12" tonearm compatible.

Personally, I think the 1200MK2 and the T3 look quite fine together.

http://i815.photobucket.com/albums/zz80/TCKA1ESa/Projects/IMG_5202.jpg

I also think this looks dang sexy. Hmmm... Schick now makes a 9" version and I do have another 1200MK2. SPU/Schick/1200MK2: I might have to give that a try. But, that would be just to say I did it. Because, like Clive, I don't feel my sound with the T3 is lacking in any real way. The SPU/Schick is just sexy. :D

http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/images/productshots/schick1.jpg

[sbank]

Thanks. I'm leaning towards the T3 if I go with a 1200 at this point thanks to everyone's comments plus more conversation with local friend who uses T3 regularly. Now I've got to decide if the 1200 is the table of choice. Also looking at SP10s and trying to balance the pros/cons of that. Who knows, perhaps an SP10 & T3 on a custom plinth would be a real beast...cheers!

[CornishPasty]

If you're into direct drives you won't go far wrong with an SP10. Lovely turntable.

[sbank]

Well I must admit that I am in love with the idea of an SP10 Mk II and put out an offer on one last night. If I am able to strike a deal to purchase, the arm will be part of the package, making most of this discussion moot unless/until I upgrade to a custom plinth with room for a second arm. All will soon unfold for better or worse and I'll post afterwards...fingers crossed for now.

[CornishPasty]

I've never really been into DDs but recently I had a good long listen to an SP10. I'm not going to go into details of ancillaries etc but suffice to say it had me seriously considering my options. I find it hard to believe that all these years later this turntable can still show modern stuff a thing or two.

[Soulman]

I've been using a T3pro for a year or more, firstly on a NA Spacedeck and recently on a Garrard 401. No pivoted arm as come close to its performance (well none that I can afford or borrow) that I've tried. My turntable is on a wall shelf so being level is not an issue and it's more important to dynamically balance the arm (which I do by placing the needle in the run off of an lp with little music on it, so a big runoff halfway across the lp and then seeing if the wand moves in, out or stays to be picked up by the groove).

I now find traditional arms much more difficult to set up and am about to minimise noise by placing pump and tank outside of the room.

[337alant]

Ive listend to a very beautifully converted 1210 from Ken with a T3 along side my own Pioneer DD and old SME3009 through my paradise phono stage and I preferred my own turntable, I wont be even considering buying a T3 pro anytime soon, just my 2p, see pic below

https://c7.staticflickr.com/4/3868/14888970062_ff7e4e1599_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oFFS5o)nebp 4-2 (https://flic.kr/p/oFFS5o) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr

Alan

[Packgrog]

@337alant could you describe why you liked one over the other? Were you using the same cartridge on both decks? Keep in mind also that the deck itself can have a significant effect on the results, so this isn't quite apples-to-apples here anyway. If I compared my Audiomods on the Technics to my old Michell Special RB250 on my TecnoDec, I might have wound up dismissing the Audiomods due to the dull sound of the deck. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but there could easily be a host of other factors in your preference that have nothing to do with the Terminator itself.

[337alant]

No we weren't using the same cart, it wasen't meant to be a shoot out of what is best it was just one of our NEBOs and I am not saying one is better than the other its just my opinion based on the type of sound I like. whilst I enjoyed Kens turntable I found it a warm and smooth sounding which is not like the Denon 103 on a techie which I also own. BTW I also dislike the look of the T3 aswell so its got nowt going for it IMHO.
Alan

[sbank]

Thanks for all the comments, but I've taken a turn in a slightly different direction as I stumbled upon a completely refurbished, restored SP10 mk II w/obsidian base, EPA-250 & EPC-205CII. I'll be posting related questions separately as I hunt for a MC cartridge to use with it. I'll also be looking to act right away on footers of some sort and perhaps a few minor changes like mat and/or center weight. Down the road the plinth will be considered as funds allow.
I appreciate all the comments on these arms and all the Techie enthusiasm that led me to the SP10.

[Dmitry]

I've been using a T3pro for a year or more, firstly on a NA Spacedeck and recently on a Garrard 401.

Des, did you have to machine a pillar for your Spacedeck to accept the Terminator tonearm? Would you have a picture and/or the dimensions of it?
Thanks!