Cantilever misalignment

[rdpx]

I recently decided to try out a new non-OEM fine line stylus for an Ortofon VMS30mk2 that I had...

The stylus that arrived looked like this out of the box:-

http://i.imgur.com/yPG2fyn.jpg

I called the company and was told that it was not a problem - something to do with the setting of the glue and that the needle was correctly aligned etc. I said that I was not really happy to accept it as it was clearly not straight.

Today I was sent a replacement, with the assurance that it had been thoroughly checked.

The replacement stylus looks like this:-

http://i.imgur.com/WYgnMWj.jpg

Now as far as I can tell the skewed angle of the cantilever is off to a similar degree in both.

I have set up the cart and to have the cantilever straight and centred the offset is about 3 degrees, as per this photo:-

http://i.imgur.com/PutVV8K.jpg

I'm not really sure what is the best course from here.

Is it okay to have a cantilever not be exactly straight?

Is there an acceptable tolerance for this kind of thing?

It does sound better than the MP-200, but the fact that it is not straight I find kind of irritating in a £112 stylus. I am also greatly puzzled by the fact that I have been sent a stylus that (whilst perhaps a little better) clearly has a very similar problem to the one I returned, and further that on the return receipt was written "stylus out of alignment by 0.02mm" which seems a pretty big underestimation of how off centre the needle was. It also makes it difficult for me to raise the issue with them again.

Does anyone have an opinion?

R

[Clive197]

I would send it back and ask for a full refund. IF the diamond tip has been set correctly then said tip can't sit in the groove correctly when the cantilever is out of alignment. Most if not all of us on here spend time and money to get our cartridge set-up correctly, this example can never achieve its full potential.

I had the same issue with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze which was exchanged without any hesitation for a correctly aligned unit. If it's wrong then it's unacceptable no matter the price.

[rdpx]

I had the same issue with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze which was exchanged without any hesitation for a correctly aligned unit. If it's wrong then it's unacceptable no matter the price.

Thanks Clive.

As I have it the tip is in the correct position, and the cantilever is straight* with respect to the groove, just the cart is skewed 3deg to achieve this. It still sounds better than the Nag 200, and I am wondering whether this could sound even better if it were straight.

[*perhaps not perfect, but it's likely as straight to the groove as I am going to get any cartridge/stylus]
:scratch:


http://i.imgur.com/o0MA081.jpg

[rdpx]

.

[struth]

Looks like the retaining holes are in wrong place, or the cart body has bee put on squint cart wise. I would think the cantilever is slightly askew once the cart is sitting correctly. ..but if it is sounding good and tracking well, then one may well cancel out the other

Yes looking at cantilever close up it is askew

[rdpx]

Thanks Grant. Yes, I have set the cart up skewed so that the cantilever will at least be correctly aligned with the record.

[rdpx]

I suppose anyone searching for an answer to this question in the future will have to look elsewhere if they want confirmation of Clive's advice!

[walpurgis]

I suppose anyone searching for an answer to this question in the future will have to look elsewhere if they want confirmation of Clive's advice!

:scratch:

[CornishPasty]

It's very obviously wrong (twice) so send it back and ask for a refund.

[rdpx]

It's very obviously wrong (twice) so send it back and ask for a refund.
Yes I'm coming to that conclusion. It seems a shame that they can't seem to supply a decent one. The reason I was looking for opinions was the insistence from the supplier that there was no issue with it because the diamond was correct to the cantilever and the drying of the glue often meant the cantilever was not always straight.

I wanted to give them a fair chance before responding again.

Robert

[Spectral Morn]

This is very common, and shouldn't be. Nothing like that should pass QC, and become stock. Michael Fremer wrote an article in Stereophile awhile back about this very issue, basically siting all such items are faulty and shouldn't have ever seen the light of day.

Send them back.

[struth]

As i said, cantilever should be parallel to cart body so when aligned a straight line can be seen all they way through. At that angle we do not know how the cantilever is reacting with respect to the insides of said cart and although may be ok at moment may not be for long.
Also its resale price is 0 as no one will buy it from you. If bought from a retailer or manufacturer then it is not fit for purpose/ not as described etc and needs to be returned for full refund.

[Spectral Morn]

As i said, cantilever should be parallel to cart body so when aligned a straight line can be seen all they way through. At that angle we do not know how the cantilever is reacting with respect to the insides of said cart and although may be ok at moment may not be for long.
Also its resale price is 0 as no one will buy it from you. If bought from a retailer or manufacturer then it is not fit for purpose/ not as described etc and needs to be returned for full refund.

+1

[rdpx]

Thanks this is all great. I'll see if I can find the article. Yes Grant it was how it was sitting inside that was giving me pause...

Very frustrating though as it sounds better than a Nagaoka 200 so I can only imagine what it might be like if it was straight!

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[helma]

It's a bit puzzling they went through the trouble to send you another one just like the first, or perhaps marginally better. You'd think they'd have a straight example somewhere... or maybe their stock is running low and all they've got left is customer returns...

EDIT: it's worth checking if the cantilever properly centers itself when playing a record, sometimes that happens and if you're really lucky it could even settle there for good. Also aligning to the cantilever instead of the cartridge body could help. All this would be worth it if it were a NOS bargain of a stylus or something, but perhaps not worth it for a new aftermarket item costing over £100, for that kind of money it's very reasonable to expect an item that went through some sort of quality control.

[struth]

Thanks this is all great. I'll see if I can find the article. Yes Grant it was how it was sitting inside that was giving me pause...

Very frustrating though as it sounds better than a Nagaoka 200 so I can only imagine what it might be like if it was straight!

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk


Wouldnt expect it to sound much better if any, if straight, unless it didnt sound good at moment. Its reliability and resale value. As Helma says, if you got it cheap then maybe fine as you wont expect much resale, but new and supposedly perfect, then its a no, no.

[rdpx]

It's a bit puzzling they went through the trouble to send you another one just like the first, or perhaps marginally better. You'd think they'd have a straight example somewhere... or maybe their stock is running low and all they've got left is customer returns...

EDIT: it's worth checking if the cantilever properly centers itself when playing a record, sometimes that happens and if you're really lucky it could even settle there for good. Also aligning to the cantilever instead of the cartridge body could help. All this would be worth it if it were a NOS bargain of a stylus or something, but perhaps not worth it for a new aftermarket item costing over £100, for that kind of money it's very reasonable to expect an item that went through some sort of quality control.

Yes I too was really stumped by the second one also being skew. He had said I might have to wait for them to make another batch, but that there was no guarantee that they would be able to produce a straight one. I said I had no problem waiting as I just wanted a straight stylus, so of course when the replacement arrived by return I was very pleased assuming they had found me a good one in stock.

See pic above I have already done as you suggest and aligned with regard to cantilever rather than the cart.


Wouldnt expect it to sound much better if any, if straight, unless it didnt sound good at moment. Its reliability and resale value. As Helma says, if you got it cheap then maybe fine as you wont expect much resale, but new and supposedly perfect, then its a no, no.

My plan was to use this until it wore out then get a paratrace retip on it from Expert Stylus... clearly I am not going to get that done to this example!!
(NB: If it didn't sound good at the moment there would have been no hesitation!!)

R

[walpurgis]

Send it back!

[rdpx]

Send it back!

Yup. :) I'm on it.

Back in cartridge limbo
:violin:
Current thinking is just saying "sod it" and building an SUT and getting myself either a Denon DL-103r or a HANA LH for Xmas. I'm not sure how the Hana would react to my shonky old Thorens 150 arm, but the Denon's work well according to people on the internet.

I might well be in California over Xmas so will see if I can find any US specific deals before then.
I do at least have a Nagaoka MP-200 to tide me over, but it isn't really grabbing the Thorens.

vinyl, eh?

[walpurgis]

If you are contemplating spending Hana kind of money, take a look at the ZYX R50 Bloom H.

[rdpx]

If you are contemplating spending Hana kind of money, take a look at the ZYX R50 Bloom H.

Looks like the Zyx is similar price to the shibata Hanas (c£500), and my price area could only really stretch to the ellipticals (c£300).
But I am happy to consider if you know of one one going cheap, Geoff!

[Qwin]

Sorry to hear about the problems you've had, I would have sent the second one back and moved to a different brand, letting the manufacturer know this. If you don't let them know, they will not improve things and contact the manufacturer direct, not the distributor or dealer.
My Denon 301 MkII was slightly out, but nothing like as bad as those.

A point worth raising, you were aligning the crooked cantilever with the centreline of the head shell.

In many cases the head shell position is not geometrically correct, its position and angle being only approximate, that's why there is adjustment available for the cartridge, to allow for the many stacked manufacturing tolerances, especially prevalent on removable head shells. So it's not a good idea to line up the cantilever in this way, whether it is strait or not.

What you should do, is align the cantilever angle to the cartridge template so it is true at the null points, regardless of head shell angle. This is not always easy and is why the mirror type alignment templates came about as they help with this.

I'm surprised no one picked up on this earlier. :)