Best Audio with Raspberry Pi

[Sherwood]

Hi,

I am currently using a RP2 with HifiBerry Digi+. I am quite pleased with the sound quality achieved with the PiCore Player and Orange Squeeze but wondered if there were better options for absolute sound quality. I did try the Moode player and although I could not detect any major differences in sound quality found it to be quite slow and clunky compared to PiCore.

I am thinking of buying a RP3 for the built in wifi and wondered if there were any better options for hifi streaming in terms of either hardware or software solutions.

Geoff

[Clive]

I use an RPi 3 with Volumio 2. I don't know whether the various players sound different as I've not experimented yet. What has made a difference is the power supply. Going from a switching wallwart to a monster battery (the sort used for charging mobiles) - this made a big difference to the sound and this is via optical from a Digi+ to my DAC.

[ALLO.com]

Hi Sherwood.
not sure if you refer to only software upgrades or also hardware.
I dont know your complete set up, but you might want to look into our KALI reclocker board.
It sits between the RPI and the DAC and syncs the clocks to reduce information loss (jitter) resulting in much better sound quality.
Every SBC has a crystal that it used to send digital signals to your DACs. The accuracy of this crystal is very important in how well the DAC will transform the digital signal into analog sounds. Simply put: a better crystal means a better sound! Most SBCs use a very cheap crystal with lots of jitter in order to save costs.
Furthermore, there are 2 kinds of frequencies for digital files: 44.1Khz (wave files) and 48khz (streamed music). Some SBCs (like RPIs) can output only 48Khz, so imagine the degradation of the sound that was recorded at a different frequency.

the vast majority of our sales are the KALI along with the PIANO 2.1 DAC which has subwoofer output.
if you want to considerably upgrade your sound quality for a relatively low price (under 100$), you might want to look into it.

there are a few threads on this forum started by members who had the chance to test it.

Cheers!
Andre

[WAD62]

Hi,

I am currently using a RP2 with HifiBerry Digi+. I am quite pleased with the sound quality achieved with the PiCore Player and Orange Squeeze but wondered if there were better options for absolute sound quality. I did try the Moode player and although I could not detect any major differences in sound quality found it to be quite slow and clunky compared to PiCore.

I am thinking of buying a RP3 for the built in wifi and wondered if there were any better options for hifi streaming in terms of either hardware or software solutions.

Geoff

Hi Geoff, with regard to software players I'd suggest there's little difference in sound quality, they'll ultimately be using the same underlying linux modules...

As a LMS/squeezebox user I use picoreplayer with my 2 piDACs (IQ, and audiophonics with pi2s), the fact that it's small and efficient enough to run purely from memory is a massive advantage, the SD card is unaffected by power outages.

FYI I previously had them running via wifi with picoreplayer (using a dongle), very easy to configure, I'd found this a problem with max2play, but perhaps that was user error...I now have them connected via ethernet, as I've put powerlinks throughout the house.

This works with a pi2/picoreplayer setup...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00H28H8DU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I too use Orange squeeze to control the whole setup (I also have an SBTouch, and SB3, and a Boom), well worth the £3 (or something like that) ;)

You could also try powering the pi2 with one of these...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/iFI-Audio-Power-Supply-Raspberry/dp/B017O38DEA

[lovejoy]

What Will says. The differences between software players is negligible to non-existant although I will say that if you're using a set up like piCorePlayer where you have files that are compressed with FLAC/Apple Lossless etc on a NAS or server. The server side software gives you the option of either sending the files directly meaning the Pi expands your lossless-ly compressed files, or set it so that the server does the expansion and the Pi is just given PCM playback duties, go for the latter every time. I've noticed a fair bit of difference doing it this way unless you're directly playing AIFF or WAV files. Of course that means you need a bit of extra bandwidth on your Wifi if that's how you're connecting. Never had a problem with that here though.

Those differences pale into insignificance when you're comparing hardware though. First and foremost the Piano DAC and the KALI re-clocker are by a significant margin the best pieces of hardware I've had connected to a Pi for playing music. Once you've got the best DAC setup then a good power supply for your Pi takes things up to the next level. There's no beating a well designed linear supply which may cost you a bit but when you compare that against a serious streaming solution from one of the major manufacturers and realise it holds its own against them, it's not silly money. On a budget though, the iFi power supplies work extremely well for what is still a switch mode PSU.

[The Black Adder]

Hi,

I am currently using a RP2 with HifiBerry Digi+. I am quite pleased with the sound quality achieved with the PiCore Player and Orange Squeeze but wondered if there were better options for absolute sound quality. I did try the Moode player and although I could not detect any major differences in sound quality found it to be quite slow and clunky compared to PiCore.

I am thinking of buying a RP3 for the built in wifi and wondered if there were any better options for hifi streaming in terms of either hardware or software solutions.

Geoff

Hi Geoff.

I would definitely give the Allo Piano 2.0 or 2.1 + KALI re-clocker a go. Currently using Moode with mine and the sound is simply stonking!! :)

[Sherwood]

Hi Sherwood.
not sure if you refer to only software upgrades or also hardware.
I dont know your complete set up, but you might want to look into our KALI reclocker board.
It sits between the RPI and the DAC and syncs the clocks to reduce information loss (jitter) resulting in much better sound quality.
Every SBC has a crystal that it used to send digital signals to your DACs. The accuracy of this crystal is very important in how well the DAC will transform the digital signal into analog sounds. Simply put: a better crystal means a better sound! Most SBCs use a very cheap crystal with lots of jitter in order to save costs.
Furthermore, there are 2 kinds of frequencies for digital files: 44.1Khz (wave files) and 48khz (streamed music). Some SBCs (like RPIs) can output only 48Khz, so imagine the degradation of the sound that was recorded at a different frequency.

the vast majority of our sales are the KALI along with the PIANO 2.1 DAC which has subwoofer output.
if you want to considerably upgrade your sound quality for a relatively low price (under 100$), you might want to look into it.

there are a few threads on this forum started by members who had the chance to test it.

Cheers!
Andre

Hi Andre,

I enquired about your products a couple fo weeks back as i wanted to purchase your entire Allo package under your 50% introductory offer. I am guessing you did not get my message.

Geoff

[Starterman]

Hi Geoff.

I would definitely give the Allo Piano 2.0 or 2.1 + KALI re-clocker a go. Currently using Moode with mine and the sound is simply stonking!! :)

I wonder if ithe Piano 2.1 can use the 384KHz mode (mentioned by Tim of Moode Audio) to bypass the allegedly poor digital filters inside the PCM5xxx?

[mikeyb]

I wonder if ithe Piano 2.1 can use the 384KHz mode (mentioned by Tim of Moode Audio) to bypass the allegedly poor digital filters inside the PCM5xxx?
Info page here but not sure if it gives the answer

https://www.allo.com/sparky/piano-dac-2-1.html

[The Black Adder]

It would be interesting if it could use the other processor when the Sub Woofer isn't in use. Or does it use both anyway? I would have thought it could use them at the same time, dual mono?

[bumpy]

Here is my take on the subject.

1. The RPi is a fabulous bit of kit and recent debate has claimed that changing to another brand of similar sort will have insignificant SQ benefit. (This is a consensus view from this forum)

2. Software packages such as 'Moode' are really about the ability and ease with which you can access your music. Changing to another package will not bring significant SQ benefit and changing to improved versions as they are issued will not bring significant SQ benefits. (This is a consensus view from this forum)

3. As always, power supplies are important. Dump the switching power supply that comes with the RPI and switch to a good linear power supply. Do not allow the RPI to power any other bits of kit through its USB interfaces this is bad. Its not unusual to spend over £200 for a good linear power supply

4. Concentrating now on the USB output for you music - the sky is the limit. Keep spending till you hear no SQ improvements. There are amplifiers that plug straight in the USB, or DACs that plug straight in the USB, or in my opinion best of all, USB to SPDIF converters that plug in the USB and send an SPDIFF signal to a separate DAC. You can spend thousands here and continue to hear improvements in SQ. Also you can spend hundreds on the USB digital cable and continue to hear SQ improvements.

The reason I have quoted consensus views on points 1 and 2 is that I don't agree with the concensus.

[Starterman]

Here is my take on the subject.

The reason I have quoted consensus views on points 1 and 2 is that I don't agree with the concensus.

It might be clearer if you state what you think, rather than what you think others think.

WRT #4: Surely the least compromised solution is I2S?

[bumpy]

It might be clearer if you state what you think, rather than what you think others think.


I was giving a consensus view to help the OP. I have no evidence to offer to the contrary but know that if something as innocent as a fuse or plug can make a difference, then I personally I cant believe that a computer or software can be free of any influence on SQ




WRT #4: Surely the least compromised solution is I2S?

I am no expert but here is what one manufacturer of a USB DAC said:

"The issue is compatibility. There are many different I2S standards and not all DAC chips will be compatible with I2S." I am not clever enough to understand what that means, perhaps you can offer your side of it for balance.

[Starterman]

I was giving a consensus view to help the OP. I have no evidence to offer to the contrary but know that if something as innocent as a fuse or plug can make a difference, then I personally I cant believe that a computer or software can be free of any influence on SQ



I am no expert but here is what one manufacturer of a USB DAC said:

"The issue is compatibility. There are many different I2S standards and not all DAC chips will be compatible with I2S." I am not clever enough to understand what that means, perhaps you can offer your side of it for balance.

https://volumio.org/raspberry-pi-i2s-dac-sounds-so-good/

[Brumjam]

Hi Geoff. In my experience, for absolute sound quality from a Pi, you need to be using buffering/isolation/re-clocking in between the Pi and your DAC. There are minor gains to be made from a better power supply for the Pi or by changing the software, but this is just tinkering at the edges compared to hardware options. The significant gains come from buffering and re-clocking the signal before it gets to your DAC. The clock(s) used downstream from the Pi also play a significant role in the final sound quality. Power supplies at every step of the process are also important - I was sceptical about this to start with but experience has proven me wrong.

My current system starts with a Pi that is powered by a low noise supply from DIYINHK. I use the I2S output to send the signal to an FPGA buffer, which in turn feeds an isolator board to stop noise from the Pi reaching the clock board. The isolator board feeds a dedicated clock board running a Pulsar clock. This board delivers the I2S signal to my DAC.

This DAC/streamer is my primary source and I've spent about three years getting it to this point. If you're looking for large gains in sound quality I'd recommend looking at buffering/clocking options. The Pi can be used as part as a top quality front end, but only if you see the Pi as a tool to deliver data to the next part of the buffer/clock chain.

[bumpy]

Hi James

I have gone down a similar route buying a USB to SPDIF converter between RPI and DAC. If you did yours DIY then well done.

[Sherwood]

Hi Geoff. In my experience, for absolute sound quality from a Pi, you need to be using buffering/isolation/re-clocking in between the Pi and your DAC. There are minor gains to be made from a better power supply for the Pi or by changing the software, but this is just tinkering at the edges compared to hardware options. The significant gains come from buffering and re-clocking the signal before it gets to your DAC. The clock(s) used downstream from the Pi also play a significant role in the final sound quality. Power supplies at every step of the process are also important - I was sceptical about this to start with but experience has proven me wrong.

My current system starts with a Pi that is powered by a low noise supply from DIYINHK. I use the I2S output to send the signal to an FPGA buffer, which in turn feeds an isolator board to stop noise from the Pi reaching the clock board. The isolator board feeds a dedicated clock board running a Pulsar clock. This board delivers the I2S signal to my DAC.

This DAC/streamer is my primary source and I've spent about three years getting it to this point. If you're looking for large gains in sound quality I'd recommend looking at buffering/clocking options. The Pi can be used as part as a top quality front end, but only if you see the Pi as a tool to deliver data to the next part of the buffer/clock chain.

James,

your explanations and argument seem convincing. I have tried battery power supplies which should be even better than linear power supplies and found the differences marginal. Are there any commercial products which emulate your DIY solutions?

Geoff

[Sherwood]

Hi James

I have gone done a similar route buying a USB to SPDIF converter between RPI and DAC. If you did yours DIY then well done.

Chris,

which product did you buy. I have a Digi+ which I am guessing is not quite as sophisticated as James DIY unit.

Geoff

[Brumjam]

James,

your explanations and argument seem convincing. I have tried battery power supplies which should be even better than linear power supplies and found the differences marginal. Are there any commercial products which emulate your DIY solutions?

Geoff

The boards I use were purchased from a very clever chap over on DIYaudio. He has recently re-opened a group buy to allow people to buy his boards again:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/group-buys/207438-ian-asynchronous-i2s-s-pdif-fifo-kit-group-buy.html

There's no soldering involved. It's simply a case of providing power supplies and connecting the boards together using the supplied cables. I suspect the main challenge will be converting USB into I2S in advance of these boards, then getting your DAC to accept an I2S signal - my DAC is a DIY board which has I2S inputs.

Regarding the use of batteries; I use one in my system which provides 3.3v to the clock board. It's a pain having to change it every 12-15 hours.

[bumpy]

Chris,

which product did you buy. I have a Digi+ which I am guessing is not quite as sophisticated as James DIY unit.

Geoff

I bought the USB to SPDIF from SW1X who has a section on AoS. He is more than happy to answer questions about his products.

[Yomanze]

As the question says 'best', then the best option would be using a digital interface board on the Pi, and taking the DAC off-board, feeding it with the Pi's digital output.

[Sherwood]

As the question says 'best', then the best option would be using a digital interface board on the Pi, and taking the DAC off-board, feeding it with the Pi's digital output.

Neil,

that's what I have done. I use a Hifiberry Digi+ to feed an external DAC. Perhaps I should have been more specific in my question. So here goes. What would forum users recommend as the best add on board for the Rpi to deliver a signal to an external DAC? Although my budget is flexible, let's look at solutions around £100 or less first.

Geoff

[mikeyb]

Check out the Kali Reclocker and Piano DAC from allo.com, there is a thread in the Trade section for them under the name of Audiohdwr.

Great review and info here too http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46809-The-ALLO-Audio-music-steamer-Pic-heavy-review