View Full Version : Wide baffles - how influential are they in loudspeaker design?
{Discussion moved from another thread elsewhere, so please bear that in mind, in terms of continuity}
I'll tell you one thing that both big Tannoys and Quads have, which in my opinion contribute greatly to the 'effortless' type of sound they produce, and which is virtually absent in today's loudspeaker designs: ample baffle-width.
Obviously, due to their electrostatic panel design, the Quads wouldn't work any other way, but with a traditional cone-type speaker, in terms of the cabinets used to house them, there's a lot to be said for GIRTH as well as height and depth, if palpable scale and an effortless, overall convincing 'big sound', is to be on the agenda...
In my experience, slim-baffled speakers (housing less than 12" drivers), no matter how tall or deep they are, or how many arrays of smaller drivers they employ, simply don't 'do' genuine scale.
Trouble is, the weeny-boy WAF victims (and their partners), whose buying habits dictate modern speaker fashions today, want something 'unobtrusive' residing in their living rooms, and I'm afraid that with loudspeaker design, 'unobtrusive' and creating a genuinely big, realistic sound, simply don't mix!! :nono:
Marco.
jandl100
17-10-2016, 09:00
Dude, they don't make 'em like they use to! ;)
No, they make them better! :lol:
http://www.mbl.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/116F_02web700x560-210x168.jpg
I'll tell you one thing that both big Tannoys and Quads have, which in my opinion contribute greatly to the 'effortless' type of sound they produce, and which is virtually absent in today's loudspeaker designs: ample baffle-width.
:nono: No baffle is even better. Baffles just add colouration and diffraction.
http://www.stereotimes.com/images/Tweeter.jpg
:thumbsup:
:D
Lol! :D
The performance of every speaker, Jerry, equates to the SUM of its constituent parts. Your MBLs sound like they do because they've been designed to work in a certain way, and the absence of any baffles is just a part of that. And it's the same with my Tannoys (in their Lockwood cabinets). In that respect, you have to judge the WHOLE.
In any case, I'm talking about conventional 'box' speakers, where in general WIDER, as well as taller and deeper, providing that the basic design is good, is generally better :cool:
And of course, ALL speakers are coloured in different ways and to varying degrees, including your MBLs. One simply chooses the type of 'sonic flavour' we enjoy or can live with the most!
Although the Quads don't fall into the traditional box-speaker category, I'm convinced that one of the reasons why they produce the 'effortless' and realistic type of sound Alan (and Kevin) enjoy, is because of their wide sound-radiating area ('baffle' width).
Marco.
jandl100
17-10-2016, 10:18
I'm talking about conventional 'box' speakers, where in general WIDER, as well as taller and deeper, providing that the basic design is good, is generally better :cool:
Marco.
Yes, I do agree. :)
But as you said, there is a lot of consumer resistance to the wide aspect.
The open baffle designs generally do wide, and they can sound excellent indeed, in an OB type of way!
-- actually, now I come to think of it there's a distinct similarity between what I hear as the OB sound and big Apogee ribbon speakers, like Justin's Interstellas and old Duettas. Both are cabinetless, so maybe there's a similar lack of colouration.
Yup, and guess what good OBs and Justin's Apogees have in common... WIDE BAFFLE-WIDTH! ;)
I haven't heard Justin's speakers yet, but I suspect they have that 'effortless' type of wide, expansive sound, the same as Quad statics and big Tannoys, although of course with their unique sonic signature and 'take' on the music.
For me, with speakers, a wide sound-radiating area makes for a big, expansive and effortless sound, which helps create realistic scale, but of course other things matter, too :)
Marco.
jandl100
17-10-2016, 10:29
I haven't heard Justin's speakers yet
Prepare to be moved - emotionally and physically, as they bounce you round the room. :lol:
Lol... Sounds just like my cuppa! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Its all very well extolling the virtues of large speakers and OB designs but the rooms acoustic properties really need to be taken into consideration in order to enjoy the benefits and as such I for one have to listen in a much humbler environment or suffer the consequences of bouncing bass!:)
If I had a larger room I would wheel in the biggest pair of speakers I could manage but at 14'x14' unfortunately only smaller speaker designs work.
Even in a larger rooms, acoustic treatment including bass traps certainly makes a huge difference to how speakers perform. From experience I have heard how a well treated room can substantially improve the performance of large speakers ability. My friends KEF Blades with half a kilo watt up them at full blast are something to behold and deliver a scale of sound only a few of us could imagine, which is only possible due to very large bass traps and a superbly acoustically treated room.
After an evening listening to them returning back to my own system sounds like a transistor radio in comparison!:lol:
I know that feeling, although to a slightly lesser extent. I like my speakers but I found myself casually browsing for quads yesterday. It still don't know if they would work in my usual room with the current layout.
Its all very well extolling the virtues of large speakers and OB designs but the rooms acoustic properties really need to be taken into consideration in order to enjoy the benefits and as such I for one have to listen in a much humbler environment or suffer the consequences of bouncing bass!:)
If I had a larger room I would wheel in the biggest pair of speakers I could manage but at 14'x14' unfortunately only smaller speaker designs work.
Even in a larger rooms, acoustic treatment including bass traps certainly makes a huge difference to how speakers perform. From experience I have heard how a well treated room can substantially improve the performance of large speakers ability. My friends KEF Blades with half a kilo watt up them at full blast are something to behold and deliver a scale of sound only a few of us could imagine, which is only possible due to very large bass traps and a superbly acoustically treated room.
After an evening listening to them returning back to my own system sounds like a transistor radio in comparison!:lol:
You're right, Jim. You also need a good room - in fact you need a good room, period, to produce a superb sound from any system, no matter how big the speakers are.
That's one of the reasons why I hate modern houses, as acoustically the rooms tend to be shite (often thin-walled, resonant, rectangular boxes - exactly what you don't want)... However, you don't necessarily need a huge room for big speakers to perform well.
My "broom cupboard" isn't exactly huge, as Alan will attest to, but the Lockies work happily in there and create huge scale with no boom, mostly because they're designed to be used up close to the back wall, and into the corners of the room, not in free space...
Honestly, if I substituted the Tannoys for a pair of large floor-standers, designed to be used in free space, they'd boom like hell, even though most of them are half the size (internal volume) of the Lockwoods! :eek:
Therefore, it's more about GOOD rooms (acoustically), than necessarily big ones, when housing any loudspeakers, not just the type of 'big wardrobes' I have - and most importantly choosing the right speakers that will work well in the room you've got :)
Marco.
You're right, Jim. You also need a good room - in fact you need a good room, period, to produce a superb sound from any system, no matter how big the speakers are. However, you don't necessarily need a huge room for big speakers to perform well.
My "broom cupboard" isn't exactly huge, as Alan will attest to, but the Lockies work happily in there and create huge scale with no boom, mostly because they're designed to be used up close to the back wall, and into the corners of the room, and not in free space...
Honestly, if I substituted the Tannoys for a pair of large floor-standers, designed to be used in free space, they'd boom like hell, even though most of them are half the size (internal volume) of the Lockwoods! :eek:
Therefore, it's more about GOOD rooms (acoustically), than necessarily big ones, when housing any loudspeakers, not just the type of 'big wardrobes' I have :)
Marco.
Yes that's a nice trick Tannoys have I believe due their clever design. They come from a time when speaker manufacturers actually considered the domestic user maybe?
I know that feeling, although to a slightly lesser extent. I like my speakers but I found myself casually browsing for quads yesterday. It still don't know if they would work in my usual room with the current layout.
Kev, Quads will work quite well in smaller rooms but they do need a bit of space around them. Biggest consideration for many folk was their look - not exactly wife friendly design and could get mistook for a couple of radiators and risk having washing strewn across them to dry!:lol:
The looks is not an issue, as they would be located in my man cave.
What goes on there is completely up to me, and as little ng as I don't make unreasonable levels of noise, then the Mrs is happy
Yes that's a nice trick Tannoys have I believe due their clever design. They come from a time when speaker manufacturers actually considered the domestic user maybe?
Yup. Also, because of their design, Tannoy DCs promote near-field listening, which again facilitates their use in small rooms.
That means you get all the subtlety and intimacy from listening in the near-field, and an effect akin to that produced by high-quality stand-mount speakers, where the top and mids are clean, and nicely integrated and projected, but with the humungous scale and venomous low-end wallop of huge speakers, combining to produce a rather 'entertaining' listen, to say the least, with all types of music!
That's why the bulk of big Tannoys now are usually exported often to TINY flats inside cities in the Far East, as the Japs have long known and enjoyed all that I've outlined above ;)
Marco.
Biggest consideration for many folk was their look - not exactly wife friendly design...
Easiest way to solve that is to marry someone in the first place who shares your passion for music, and thus listening to recorded music at home PROPERLY. Do that, and it's fairly easy to convince them of the sonic advantages of big speakers!
That's the main reason why I get no issues with Del. Marry compatibles, folks, not incompatibles... ;)
Marco.
A bit of an excessive move just to change my speakers.
"Sorry love, you'll have to go as I want to buy a pair of electrostatic speakers."
It is true that big Tannoy DC work fine in small rooms. Heard that too many times now for it to be a coincidence. You can get away with QUAD ESL in a small room too.
This will still be sub-optimal, of course, but you can get away with it whereas with most conventional big speakers you can't.
The wide baffle thing is a bit of a red-herring, the Tannoy have a wide baffle because it has to house a 15'' driver and because the box needs to be a certain volume, make it narrower and it needs to be taller or deeper to compensate. Electrostatics need to be big because little ones won't have any bass.
Think about it, if you took a cab with a front baffle the size of a Lockwood and fitted a 5 inch mid bass and a tweeter would you get the big effortless sound of a Tannoy 15?. No. The baffle width is just a co-incidence, not a design feature.
Good write up btw Kevin, enjoyed it a lot.
So thats where i went wrong;)
A bit of an excessive move just to change my speakers.
"Sorry love, you'll have to go as I want to buy a pair of electrostatic speakers."
Hahahaha... The idea is that you choose the wife (and get that choice right) first, BEFORE you choose the speakers! ;)
I honestly wouldn't have married any woman who didn't share the same interests/passions in life as me, and I know that Del feels the same the opposite way. For me, that's just normal and probably why we've been happily married for 25 years :)
Marco.
I married a person that was my best friend before she became my wife.
It does not matter to me that she is not interested in HiFi, as I have my own space for that. Therefore something as trivial as a speaker choice does not even need to be discussed.
I married a person that was my best friend before she became my wife.
Ditto, but fortunately she also loved music, and even better, realistic BASS! ;)
Hey, we're both lucky :)
Whatever works for couples, works, and for you guys it obviously does, or you adopt a compromise, which is facilitated by your man cave.
What rips my knitting, and what I just can't get my head around, are folks who marry completely the wrong person; someone who does all they can to prevent you doing what you enjoy - and who just sit back and take it!! :mental: :mental:
Marco.
People marry for lots of reasons Marco, some good some bad. Often at time, music was not a big issue, or even an issue at all. As long as its a 2 way thing then its fine with me. Some folk get bossed around, of that there is no doubt, but again if they are happy with that then its not an issue.
When i wed my music was low down in my priorities but it and my pc were part of the deal.
I would say if your single then only marry someo!e who is either into your hobbies...shoud have preferably.... Or someone who is happy to let you imbibe wifhout interferance. Its more fun
The wide baffle thing is a bit of a red-herring, the Tannoy have a wide baffle because it has to house a 15'' driver and because the box needs to be a certain volume, make it narrower and it needs to be taller or deeper to compensate. Electrostatics need to be big because little ones won't have any bass.
Think about it, if you took a cab with a front baffle the size of a Lockwood and fitted a 5 inch mid bass and a tweeter would you get the big effortless sound of a Tannoy 15?. No. The baffle width is just a co-incidence, not a design feature.
You misunderstand what I mean....
What I mean is that if you're going to design a large pair of speakers, featuring the use of 12 or 15" bass units, then in my opinion (and experience) you'll get far better results, in terms of creating realistic scale and SLAM, if you mount the drivers on the front (thus creating the need for wide baffles), than you would by mounting the drivers at the sides, inside a form of side-firing 'bass bin', which I've seen employed before, simply to create speakers with narrow front baffles, housing only the midrange unit(s) and tweeters, in order to end up with a 'slim looking' design from the front that (arguably) doesn't look so imposing in the room.
Do you get what I mean? :)
Therefore, it's not the wide-baffles themselves which help create that effortless sense of scale, but the size of the drivers used inside them - and front-on, for me, is better than side-on, so you get that (very effective) wide sound-dispersing/radiating area that allows bass notes to 'breathe'... I mean, after all, there's a good reason why JBL designed speakers like these, with twin 15-inchers side-by-side (which I'd dearly love to hear some day):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/BMKytg.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plBMKytgj)
Super-wide baffles (thus creating very-wide overall speakers), but not very deep cabinets for the size of the speakers. With huge 'box-type' speakers, put all the 'bulk' at the front, not at the side, in order to do it right, is what I'm saying!
GIRTH matters... ;)
Marco.
The toe in is just all wrong....
Yes, I agree, the 'side firing' bass driver thing is very much due to WAF taking precedence. You don't really get the same slam that way.
Oddly i used a side port this time. I think it can have nice attributes for the listener but agree re slam
Any speaker that has drivers that don't directly face you is on the "suspect" list, I think.
A few get away with it, though. Just about.:D
As long as its a 2 way thing then its fine with me.
Me too :)
Trouble is they're not happy... How often do you see blokes on forums, when discussing speakers, moaning about 'what she'll ALLOW me' to have in the living room?
"She" being the wife or girlfriend. The operative word is 'allow', indicating that she's the boss/decision maker. Said blokes are obviously not happy about being controlled in that way, otherwise why moan about it on a forum?
Therefore, it's clearly NOT a 2-way thing! ;)
And *that* was my point, and what I can't get my head around... It's the basis on which the whole WAF thing is founded - and it shouldn't be like that. What really gets me is that that sort of arrangement in marriages ('her indoors' wearing the trousers, as it were), is somehow considered as 'normal' :scratch:
Must be a British thing!
Marco.
Yes, I agree, the 'side firing' bass driver thing is very much due to WAF taking precedence. You don't really get the same slam that way.
Yup, maximising SLAM/scale is precisely what I'm on about - and to do that, you need to front-mount the drive units, and in turn create a very imposing looking pair of speakers, completely at odds with WAF! :)
Slim just doesn't cut it with big speakers...
Therefore, for me, it's no 'accident' that wide-baffled speakers, such as Quads, Apogees and big Tannoy DCs/JBLs, do the 'effortless scale' thing so well, although admittedly you don't 'feel' it as much with Quads - and the important thing here, in terms of my point, is that Quads and Apogees achieve it without the use of huge 'drive units'...
Marco.
I would say if your single then only marry someo!e who is either into your hobbies...shoud have preferably.... Or someone who is happy to let you imbibe wifhout interferance. Its more fun
Indeed... And if you don't, and have married someone and allowed them to control you, then either put up with it and shut up, or don't moan about it on forums whenever the subject of speakers comes up! ;)
Above all, NEVER allow yourself to be bossed around by anyone who's not your employer or authorised to do so - and that applies to both men and women in their relationships :nono:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-10-2016, 14:46
Whilst I completely disagree with everything being said about speakers.... An interesting anecdote is that when I once spoke to a an engineer at KEF he told me that one of the reasons (other than cost which was a big one!) that they stopped making speakers with coupled cavity bass loading such as my 105.3's was that the bass drivers are not on view and they had complaints that "I've paid thousands for these speakers and me mates aren't suitably impressed cos there's no huge woofers on show"!!
Ali Tait
17-10-2016, 15:11
I know that feeling, although to a slightly lesser extent. I like my speakers but I found myself casually browsing for quads yesterday. It still don't know if they would work in my usual room with the current layout.
What's the room laid out like?
An interesting anecdote is that when I once spoke to a an engineer at KEF he told me that one of the reasons (other than cost which was a big one!) that they stopped making speakers with coupled cavity bass loading such as my 105.3's was that the bass drivers are not on view and they had complaints that "I've paid thousands for these speakers and me mates aren't suitably impressed cos there's no huge woofers on show"!!
Lol - you can't see mine, as the (opaque) grilles hide them, which are fixed to the cabinets. So forget that one! :ner:
You can't see much through Quad 57s either...
Lockwood Majors (with 15" Monitor Golds) in situ, chez-moi. Incidentally, behind the white door is a cupboard [housing my sadomasochist costumes, haha]. It's not the entrance to the room, as some daftees have thought before...! :doh:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5181/lockwoodmajors027.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/lockwoodmajors027.jpg/)
Marco.
I'd need to be about 4ft 2" to get under that! :D
The entrance to the room is to the left of the L/H speaker.... Also note that the ceiling slopes a little on both sides towards the back walls, at each end of the room, but is flat (and also much higher up in the middle).
Marco.
jandl100
17-10-2016, 17:19
Any speaker that has drivers that don't directly face you is on the "suspect" list, I think.
A few get away with it, though. Just about.:D
:whistle:
Whilst I completely disagree with everything being said about speakers.... An interesting anecdote is that when I once spoke to a an engineer at KEF he told me that one of the reasons (other than cost which was a big one!) that they stopped making speakers with coupled cavity bass loading such as my 105.3's was that the bass drivers are not on view and they had complaints that "I've paid thousands for these speakers and me mates aren't suitably impressed cos there's no huge woofers on show"!!
Driver count sells speakers in the showroom, if you can't see 'em they can't sell 'em.
What is it you are disagreeing with? Not seen anything radical proposed so far.
Arkless Electronics
17-10-2016, 17:46
Driver count sells speakers in the showroom, if you can't see 'em they can't sell 'em.
What is it you are disagreeing with? Not seen anything radical proposed so far.
Pretty much everything that has been said in this thread on the subject of speakers.... I'll leave it at that... life's too short;)
:whistle:
Last sentence was my get out clause with a mild wind up to get your reaction.
It worked:)
What's the room laid out like?
I have it listening across the room.
It's a suspended wooden floored mezzanine measuring 5.5 X 3.4 metres with a 1.75m X 4m double height section.
I figured Quads would need to fire down the room to give them enough room to breathe.
Gordon Steadman
17-10-2016, 18:29
I have it listening across the room.
It's a suspended wooden floored mezzanine measuring 5.5 X 3.4 metres with a 1.75m X 4m double height section.
I figured Quads would need to fire down the room to give them enough room to breathe.
I've used the Quads in rooms like the one you've seen to what was basically a large cupboard. Sound great in both, I reckon it's a myth about needing big rooms. Only at a barn in my house in Suffolk did I have them facing down the room. All others, including this one, I have the firing across the room. I tried them with the same layout we had when you were here but prefer them where they are now.
I've used the Quads in rooms like the one you've seen to what was basically a large cupboard. Sound great in both, I reckon it's a myth about needing big rooms.
Me too, as experience of setting up countless different systems in different rooms (large and small), not to mention using my Tannoys in a room four times the size of mine, and along with others, not hearing any notable sonic improvements, proves that in terms of rooms, it's not all about size! :)
On a more important note, it's good to see our French contingent getting together to enhance and help build the AoS community :cool:
Marco.
Infinitely Baffled
17-10-2016, 18:53
The wide baffle thing is a bit of a red-herring, the Tannoy have a wide baffle because it has to house a 15'' driver and because the box needs to be a certain volume ..... No. The baffle width is just a co-incidence, not a design feature.
Peter Qvortrup (and Peter Snell, if he were here) would not agree with you:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speakers_info.shtml
PQ's dislike of "fashion victim" slim baffle speakers is palpable!
IB.
Peter Qvortrup (and Peter Snell, if he were here) would not agree with you:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speakers_info.shtml
PQ's dislike of "fashion victim" slim baffle speakers is palpable!
IB.
Ha... A man (an engineer, too) after my own heart!! :clap::eyebrows:
From the article linked to:
The pedestrian looks of the Audio Note loudspeakers are well calculated. The front baffle dimensions and depth of the cabinet are an integral part of the wave launch support and controlled defraction characteristics pioneered by Peter Snell in the 1970's. Smaller, narrow baffles, like those found in most of today's "fashion victim" designs currently masquerading as quality loudspeakers achieve nothing other than to compromise midrange frequency and tonal colourations.
As is often the case, I *know*, and can identify, precisely what I'm hearing, but don't always have the technical knowledge to explain why! Love the term "fashion victim designs". How true. I will borrow that in future.
Marco.
Peter Qvortrup (and Peter Snell, if he were here) would not agree with you:
http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speakers_info.shtml
PQ's dislike of "fashion victim" slim baffle speakers is palpable!
IB.
Indeed but I couldn't personally live with speakers that have to be set up in the corners of the room like the Audionotes. Heard them a few times and it doesn't work for me at all.
Indeed but I couldn't personally live with speakers that have to be set up in the corners of the room like the Audionotes. Heard them a few times and it doesn't work for me at all.
Thing is, you can take the same principles and implement them into speakers not specifically designed to be used in the corners of a room, and gain the same advantages provided by the wide-baffle approach.
Heco have employed it very successfully (and rather attractively too, IMO) in their 'Direkt' range:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/jJ2gRE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pojJ2gREj)
The proper way to build a large box-type speaker...It's also refreshing to see that some current loudspeaker manufacturers are shunning the 'fashion victim' look! ;)
Marco.
P.S If I can be arsed later (or maybe if one of the mods fancies it), I'll move all the 'wide-baffle speaker chat' into a separate thread in Blank Canvas, as it's an interesting subject, and so warrants a thread of its own.
That's a stunner of a design. Like Snells on steroids :)
Thing is, you can take the same principles and implement them into speakers not specifically designed to be used in the corners of a room, and gain the same advantages provided by the wide-baffle approach.
Heco have employed it very successfully (and rather attractively too, IMO) in their 'Direkt' range:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/jJ2gRE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pojJ2gREj)
The proper way to build a large box-type speaker...It's also refreshing to see that some current loudspeaker manufacturers are shunning the 'fashion victim' look! ;)
Marco.
P.S If I can be arsed later (or maybe if one of the mods fancies it), I'll move all the 'wide-baffle speaker chat' into a separate thread in Blank Canvas, as it's an interesting subject, and so warrants a thread of its own.
Nice LP - 'Morrison Hotel' is one of my favourites. :)
Heco have temployed it very successfully (and rather attractively too, IMO) in their 'Direkt' range:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/jJ2gRE.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pojJ2gREj)
The proper way to build a large box-type speaker...It's also refreshing to see that some current loudspeaker manufacturers are shunning the 'fashion victim' look! ;)
Marco.
What a crackin' looking pair of speakers - look like they've been made out of recycled Lambrettas.
What a crackin' looking pair of speakers - look like they've been made out of recycled Lambrettas.
Get great reviews and came out at £2499 a pair
That's a 12 inch driver, much bigger speaker than they look in a photo.
Lot of speaker for the money. Thought that was an 8" driver.
They also come in white and it's a 10" driver. Has had loads of rave reviews and I think they were used at the 'Salford Show' this year
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161019/dafe83930849136d24f0928617f26c1e.jpg
Rothchild
19-10-2016, 22:35
Good explanation of baffle diffraction here: http://www.salksound.com/wp/?p=160 quite long and involved overall, but the first two sections cover most of what one might need to get a decent understanding of what's going on.
walpurgis
19-10-2016, 22:46
My speakers are a modest seventeen and a half inches wide. Does that qualify? :)
CornishPasty
20-10-2016, 06:28
I heard those Hecos at a show recently. Not impressed.
The Black Adder
20-10-2016, 07:06
Very Tannoy looking tripod legs.
They look great. Certainly a design statement over the same old stuff.
But I've heard a few HECO speakers in the past and IMO sounded pretty, well... vague. I couldn't trust how things sound at a show though... you need them in your own space with your own kit IMO to judge.
I heard those Hecos at a show recently. Not impressed.
And of course it was definitely the speakers at fault, not anything else upstream, or the room, or a combination of both? ;)
I'm teasing of course, Ralph, and they could indeed be crap, but you know that hi-fi shows are never the best places to conclusively judge anything :)
What was it about them you didn't like, and can you remember what the partnering system was?
Marco.
My speakers are a modest seventeen and a half inches wide. Does that qualify?
I'll take your 17 inches and raise you 12 inches for the Canterburys Geoff :ner:
Its an interesting subject and one usually shied away from by many designers, because the truth is that aesthetics sell, not sound quality....at least, the former has the most immediate impact on the interest of most people.
The quote by PQ earlier on is a little mystifying because it explains nothing, and describes nothing.
Lets put to bed a few myths:
* Narrow baffles image better....No, they don't, well not necessarily anyway. Imaging is a function of the recording itself and the polar response of the loudspeaker. You can have a wide baffle loudspeaker with an excellent and smooth polar response. Snell knew this and his J and K models were designed to work well in a variety of rooms and image well, partly due to their polar response (itself partly a function of the crossover design employed which also had an effect (too long winded to discuss here though...));
*Multiple small drivers with limited x-max due to their array are equal/better/more efficient than one large drive unit: Yes, and no. Yes, by limiting x-max, you lower distortion, but any efficiency gains must be measured against the increase in baffle step "loss" or sensitivity loss by the increase in baffle step frequency. This loss can be offset by the efficiency of multiple drive units but it's a cheap-ish trick because it also affects the time domain as each driver centre is at a different distance from the listener, and this is very difficult to correct for within the crossover where typically, such arrays operate after the filter in parallel or in two groups (ie series group plus parallel), so to a certain extent, it will never be as phase-correct as a single drive unit of larger proportions. It os also worth remembering that a large single (or double) woofer tends to be low in x-max too due to radiating area, hence many such as DC's etc do exhibit very low LF distortion as a result. The benefit in smaller drovers is that they can be run higher with less cone resonance distortion and their directivity covers a wider area up to a frequency related to their radiating diameter ;
*Large baffles improve tonality: They can do by retaining more of the midrange within 2Pi space, (and technically better phase response in the lower frequency than multiple drivers) but this has to be balanced by diffraction issues whereby the acoustic wave form, as it tries to spread spherically, meets the baffle and travels along the baffle until it reaches the edge. At the edge, any sudden change in shape (such as a typical box) acts as an obstruction to the propagation of the wave and the baffle edge effectively acts as a secondary virtual source, with part of the waveform being reflected out of phase back to the listener. This causes both destructive and constructive reinforcement of the waveform and this looks like a rapid series of peaks and troughs on the on-axis measurement and is a form of distortion which can be quite audible and objectionable if extreme. It largely depends on the frequency that this happens. As frequency iis inversely related to wavelength, the wider the baffle, the lower the frequency that this happens, thereby taking out some of the critical midrange comb filtering effects, so this is what PQ and Peter Snell, I guess, were getting at.
You cannot get something for nothing when it comes to loudspeaker design. There's always a compromise. The compromises going to wider baffles include WAF issues, making the cabinet stiff enough to avoid increased resonance issues, cost and constructional complexity (if done properly). For two/three way designs which are not DCs, you also have more freedom to mess around with driver centres to offset diffraction issues, which is a good thing although this has to be compensated for electrically for time alignment and you also have to consider the polar response. It takes careful design not to end up with something that has a very strange field lobing effect but it is easily enough dealt with providing that as a designer you are aware of the issues and consider them in design.
The advantages with narrower baffles are that the diffraction issues can be pushed higher up the frequency spectrum and by offsetting tweeters etc, you can deal quite effectively with the issues but never eliminated them. You can also make the baffles slimmer and more rigid, cheaper to construct and deal with baffle step in the crossover.
There's no wrong and right but different designers and listeners have their own preferences.
I designed the Canterburys along the lines of the originals aesthetically, but when you think about the shape, it provides a very wide baffle with a remarkably smooth diffraction pattern thanks to the 45 degree front-side panels, thus avoiding many of the diffraction issues in the critical mid band. The other thing I like about large baffles is that they lower the frequency that the propagating waveform transfers from 2Pi (direct radiating) to 4 Pis space so that more detail is retained in the lower registers rather than lost to diffraction or reflection with the room. Anyone who has heard the Canterburys will know what I mean. It is particularly evident on things like Cello.
The use of felt was employ very successfully with the Rhapsodys but many consider these designs "marmite" due to appearance. I personally design for sound quality, have no interest in stacking 'em high to sell 'em cheap and to some extent follow the Snell school of thought but also have my own ideas about these things.
Point is, one needs to be careful what one ascribes as the benefits of these designs. To just say that "one is better than" another is out of context. Context is everything. The compromises that are involved are what (if most are honest) lead them to the speaker choice they use. For some, aesthetics will always figure highly, for others they wont. What one considers butt-ugly, another will consider elegant. Tastes vary. You can of course have both, but even then, many of us will not fail to agree on what ticks both boxes!
Only got a titchy 13 incher here....still, its whats done with it they say :eyebrows:
28" fat boys here! :eyebrows:
Marco.
The Black Adder
20-10-2016, 09:58
28" fat boys here! :eyebrows:
Marco.
lol... The difference is between a weedy reed or a camberwell carrot... Nowt like havin' proper girth and proper rasta bass.
Ive never really got the bass thing. Must just be me i guess. Everyone else seems to be after it lol
Then, daftee, you obviously don't listen to bass drums, bass guitars, double-basses, church organs - I could go on! ;)
And if you do, you aren't hearing them realistically, unless the speakers you use have the ability to reproduce their tonal characteristics.... That's why "the bass thing" is important.
Marco.
As Scotty used to say... "Ye cannae beat the laws of physics, Capt'n!"
;)
Marco.
walpurgis
20-10-2016, 11:16
I just settle for 'a nice tone'! :D
Rothchild
20-10-2016, 11:17
As Scotty used to say... "Ye cannae beat the laws of physics, Capt'n!"
;)
Marco.
I believe he issued a subsequent addendum to this claim and it became "Ye cannae beat the laws of physics (unless you're a subjectivist), Capt'n!" ;-)
Ah yes, original series, episode 27, Kirk on the planet Zork, if I recall?
Marco.
Actually it's: 'I cannae change the laws of physics, captain!'
Clearly meant ironically as the Enterprise was routinely capable of travelling faster than the speed of light.
As you were.
Yesh, but I adapted it a little! ;)
Marco.
I prefer the American: 'There's no replacement for displacement'
It isn't really about getting deep bass (sub 40 Hz) as how often does a recording have it? Not to mention the interaction with the room at those frequencies. It's the ease with which bass is reproduced that is the key. If it sounds like the speaker is having to make an effort to do bass then that is a fail in my book.
Yes, I completely agree. That's essentially what I was getting at earlier with scale. Scale and slam I *need* (to make me smile), super-low bass I don't :)
Marco.
Yes, I completely agree. That's essentially what I was getting at earlier with scale. Scale and slam I *need* (to make me smile), super-low bass I don't :)
Marco.
I've had my new speakers for about 8 months now, a pair of IPL S5TL transmission lines, and although they only have puny 10" bass drivers, the TL design lets them extend to 23Hz...apparently ;)
I definitely agree R.E. scale and slam, my previous speakers were mission 753s so they're a massive step up for me. :)
As for super low bass, I've learned to be cautious when putting on any recent electronic music, there's stuff going on in the lower registers I'd barely noticed before...:eek:
This in particular is room shaking...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Excavation-Haxan-Cloak/dp/B00BB1FT62
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 13:48
Give me the narrowest baffle you've got every time:)
I've had my new speakers for about 8 months now, a pair of IPL S5TL transmission lines, and although they only have puny 10" bass drivers, the TL design lets them extend to 23Hz...apparently ;)
I definitely agree R.E. scale and slam, my previous speakers were mission 753s so they're a massive step up for me. :)
As for super low bass, I've learned to be cautious when putting on any recent electronic music, there's stuff going on in the lower registers I'd barely noticed before...:eek:
This in particular is room shaking...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Excavation-Haxan-Cloak/dp/B00BB1FT62
Transmission lines are in another league entirely, mine have bass where previously there was no bass. Nothing sounds bass light, not even unaccompanied acoustic guitar.
Give me the narrowest baffle you've got every time:)
What do you do then if you want to use 12 or 15" bass drivers?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 15:07
I would use multiple smaller drivers! More motor and less moving mass;)
It's all horses for courses at the end of the day though... "scale" is not that important to me but very low colouration is top of the list....
We just like different types of speakers, mate :)
Paper cones aren't that heavy.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 15:58
I prefer plastic cones personally...
Clarity, detail and very low colouration are my most important areas in a speaker. To me, no item of hi fi should add any character of it's own. A system should not have "a sound" but merely allow the recorded sound free passage through it. If it was badly recorded then it should sound bad when replayed.
Quad ELS are about my favourite speakers for all the above reasons.... I don't use them for other reasons such as not enough room and needing a "conventional" speaker to test my power amps into.
As far as moving coil speakers go I generally favour the top models from the likes of KEF, B&W, Focal etc
jandl100
20-10-2016, 15:58
Ive never really got the bass thing. Must just be me i guess. Everyone else seems to be after it lol
We just like different types of speakers, mate :)
I'm with Grant and Marco.
It all depends on what music you want to listen to.
Some music is 'bass led' and makes little sense if you don't have the bass end strutting its stuff. Typically modern dance and club music, techno, dubstep etc etc as well as a lot of pop and rock music.
Other music (e.g. most classical, jazz) is midrange led and what the deep bass does and even if it is much there is often of comparatively little consequence.
My speakers are pretty much full range but the bass end doesn't get a lot of use for a significant proportion of the music I listen to.
I prefer plastic cones personally...
Clarity, detail and very low colouration are my most important areas in a speaker. To me, no item of hi fi should add any character of it's own. A system should not have "a sound" but merely allow the recorded sound free passage through it. If it was badly recorded then it should sound bad when replayed.
I just like stuff that sounds to my ears like real music, and if I'm playing, say some Rammstein or Tool (heavy rock), as I've been to see both bands live, I like to 'feel' a convincing snapshot of the sensation of scale and visceral impact I remember enjoying at the gigs. For me, with that type of music, creating that 'sense of physicality' is very important in terms of achieving realism.
That shit puts a smile on my face, and I can't get it from using anything other than the type of speakers I've got (huge muthas), because to get that effect, you need to SHIFT AIR! :exactly:
Marco.
P.S Jerry, once again we're on the same page :thumbsup:
I like clarity and sweetness to music. It should lift my spirits or move me, and by move, i mean emotionally, ...not to the toilet:lol:
Bass should be there but not in the way. If i regularly feel bass waves hitting me then its not right....for me anyways. Even when i was a black sabbath man, i did not want the bass lines to be pushed too far. Probably as ive mostly been blues orientated and is more toward the feeling in the player,s presentation than in the shock tactic of heavy bass lines etc.
But each to their own.
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 17:27
I just like stuff that sounds to my ears like real music, and if I'm playing, say some Rammstein or Tool (heavy rock), as I've been to see both bands live, I like to 'feel' a convincing snapshot of the sensation of scale and visceral impact I remember enjoying at the gigs. For me, with that type of music, creating that 'sense of physicality' is very important in terms of achieving realism.
That shit puts a smile on my face, and I can't it from using anything other than the type of speakers I've got (huge muthas), because to get that effect, you need to SHIFT AIR! :exactly:
Marco.
P.S Jerry, once again we're on the same page :thumbsup:
We obviously want very different things from our speakers! And music! I can't stand heavy metal..... not "modern" stuff anyway... I LOVE Led Zepp, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple etc but cannot abide the likes of Rammstein, Tool, Anthrax, Mettalica etc. To me this is on the same scale of awfulness as Celine Dion! Also I can't stand virtually anything "dance", "club" "Urban" etc
Tune is EVERYTHING to me. I like stuff from the Great American Songbook probably more than anything else out there. Complexity is where it's at for me;)
A typical evenings listening, to my most played records, would probably include Sinatra, Count Basie, Van Morrison, Dire Straights, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Deacon Blue (first album only), The Beatles, Joni Mitchell and The Blue Nile.... A small part of my collection but probably the most played so I guess that little lot reflects my taste in music....
You can shift just as much air and go just as low and loud with several smaller bass drivers and this has always been my preference. Large cones equals large colouration as do wide baffles as there is more wood to resonate. I personally find Tannoys completely unacceptable from a colouration POV. All the admittedly few I've heard anyway.
I'm basically a "BBC Monitor" man myself;) I'll take tonal accuracy, low colouration, detail etc over "musicality" (a rather nebulous term IMHO) and scale any day of the week....
:lol: No arguements here.
Stock Tannoys do have a bit of a ponderous sound to them.
Gran's Radio comes to mind.. TBH.
Different performance/sounds entirely when properly; housed, crossed and above all.. fed decent input.
Rascals come alive with some attentions
Thats' what makes them Impressive in My mind.. their seemingly limitless ability to reflect even v subtle changes
We obviously want very different things from our speakers! And music! I can't stand heavy metal..... not "modern" stuff anyway... I LOVE Led Zepp, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple etc but cannot abide the likes of Rammstein, Tool, Anthrax, Mettalica etc. To me this is on the same scale of awfulness as Celine Dion! Also I can't stand virtually anything "dance", "club" "Urban" etc
Tune is EVERYTHING to me. I like stuff from the Great American Songbook probably more than anything else out there. Complexity is where it's at for me;)
A typical evenings listening, to my most played records, would probably include Sinatra, Count Basie, Van Morrison, Dire Straights, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Deacon Blue (first album only), The Beatles, Joni Mitchell and The Blue Nile.... A small part of my collection but probably the most played so I guess that little lot reflects my taste in music....
You can shift just as much air and go just as low and loud with several smaller bass drivers and this has always been my preference. Large cones equals large colouration as do wide baffles as there is more wood to resonate. I personally find Tannoys completely unacceptable from a colouration POV. All the admittedly few I've heard anyway.
I'm basically a "BBC Monitor" man myself;) I'll take tonal accuracy, low colouration, detail etc over "musicality" (a rather nebulous term IMHO) and scale any day of the week....
NOT necessarily so at all Jez. See my last post which appears to have got buried in the mists of time. It depends entirely on the design and the drive units used. Wide baffles do have some advantages and some disadvantages. Slim baffles have some advantages and definitely some disadvantages. You can have your cake and eat it RE managing resonance with larger cabinets, as that's purely a matter of design and its not especially difficult to manage either, just not as economical as a smaller unit. I know which I'd rather have. A large drive unit can have less colouration than smaller ones if it isn't being forced too high in frequency into cone resonance/breakup and because x-max tends to be limited to way less than many smaller drive units trying to punch holes in the air. Use one for just the lower bass frequencies and it's a very efficient means of achieving low distortion bass. Generally, a few smaller cones movingwith greater x-max exhibit greater distortion, not less. There are a few exceptions, including the superb Scanspeak revelator and Illuminator midwoofers. You have to go to a few more than just two, and limit their excursions and for decent drive units, not only does this get expensive but unless the time alignment issues are dealt with properly, you're building in even more distortion. Every design is a compromise. People tend to pick the compromise which suits them, but it is simply wrong to state carte blanche that large drive units = large colourations without the right context to back that up. the reverse can also be true ;)
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 17:47
:lol: No arguements here.
Stock Tannoys do have a bit of a ponderous sound to them.
Gran's Radio comes to mind.. TBH.
Different performance/sounds entirely when properly; housed, crossed and above all.. fed decent input.
Rascals come alive with some attentions
Thats' what makes them Impressive in My mind.. their seemingly limitless ability to reflect even v subtle changes
Gran's radio yeah to quite a degree but also a peculiar sounding treble... "clangy" is the best i could describe it... I've only heard a few Tannoys though and not fully after market sorted ones so that is something to look forward to some day... I hope they are a hell of a lot better than the stock ones I've heard!:eek:
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 17:57
NOT necessarily so at all Jez. See my last post which appears to have got buried in the mists of time. It depends entirely on the design and the drive units used. Wide baffles do have some advantages and some disadvantages. Slim baffles have some advantages and definitely some disadvantages. You can have your cake and eat it RE managing resonance with larger cabinets, as that's purely a matter of design and its not especially difficult to manage either, just not as economical as a smaller unit. I know which I'd rather have. A large drive unit can have less colouration than smaller ones if it isn't being forced too high in frequency into cone resonance/breakup and because x-max tends to be limited to way less than many smaller drive units trying to punch holes in the air. Use one for just the lower bass frequencies and it's a very efficient means of achieving low distortion bass. Generally, a few smaller cones movingwith greater x-max exhibit greater distortion, not less. There are a few exceptions, including the superb Scanspeak revelator and Illuminator midwoofers. You have to go to a few more than just two, and limit their excursions and for decent drive units, not only does this get expensive but unless the time alignment issues are dealt with properly, you're building in even more distortion. Every design is a compromise. People tend to pick the compromise which suits them, but it is simply wrong to state carte blanche that large drive units = large colourations without the right context to back that up. the reverse can also be true ;)
Well I know which approach I prefer;) If used for just up to 100Hz then a big woofer will work great yes but can be awkward to house. The Coupled Cavity loading in my KEF's works very well and gives low distortion bass with little cone movement. The twin 8" drivers per speaker give the same cone area as a 12" woofer per side. They are very dynamic and match this with low colouration and adequate bass extension (although not that low for their large size. You need the Kube-200 equaliser to max out the bass extension and it then goes to 20Hz @-6dB. They can do max spl of 115dB!!)
We obviously want very different things from our speakers! And music! I can't stand heavy metal..... not "modern" stuff anyway... I LOVE Led Zepp, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple etc but cannot abide the likes of Rammstein, Tool, Anthrax, Mettalica etc. To me this is on the same scale of awfulness as Celine Dion! Also I can't stand virtually anything "dance", "club" "Urban" etc
Tune is EVERYTHING to me. I like stuff from the Great American Songbook probably more than anything else out there. Complexity is where it's at for me;)
A typical evenings listening, to my most played records, would probably include Sinatra, Count Basie, Van Morrison, Dire Straights, Elvis Costello, Billy Bragg, Deacon Blue (first album only), The Beatles, Joni Mitchell and The Blue Nile.... A small part of my collection but probably the most played so I guess that little lot reflects my taste in music....
You can shift just as much air and go just as low and loud with several smaller bass drivers and this has always been my preference. Large cones equals large colouration as do wide baffles as there is more wood to resonate. I personally find Tannoys completely unacceptable from a colouration POV. All the admittedly few I've heard anyway.
I'm basically a "BBC Monitor" man myself;) I'll take tonal accuracy, low colouration, detail etc over "musicality" (a rather nebulous term IMHO) and scale any day of the week....
Not really much point in arguing with you, as we're POLES apart in our opinions here, just please don't preach/tell me what kind of sound I'm listening to, as you haven't heard my speakers, or admittedly many Tannoy DCs, especially upgraded ones, so in that respect, your experience is limited.
By all means, you're entitled not to like what you've heard so far, just don't lecture me on what I'm hearing when I listen to my own speakers in my system, or we will fall out spectacularly.
That's one thing that really pisses me off, Jez, and I don't give a toss what your science or your measuring equipment says to the contrary - you're way too obsessed with that stuff, which never tells the whole story. And in terms of the point I was making about rock music - choose any band you like, it doesn't matter.
I'm simply taking about the visceral intensity of listening to ANY rock band live, so Led Zep, Sabbath and Deep Purple (all bands which I love, too), come under the same category. I'm not taking about styles of music; I'm talking about SOUND, and that trouser-flapping effect you get when listening to such bands live in a decent venue.
*That* is the effect I like to recreate a snapshot of at home - and amongst other things, you need BIG speakers to do it.
You're very welcome to come round and listen for yourself sometime to both my speakers and system, but that's the *only* time you'll be able to comment with any authority on any aspect of their sonic or musical characteristics.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
20-10-2016, 18:38
Yup, and guess what good OBs and Justin's Apogees have in common... WIDE BAFFLE-WIDTH! ;)
I haven't heard Justin's speakers yet, but I suspect they have that 'effortless' type of wide, expansive sound, the same as Quad statics and big Tannoys, although of course with their unique sonic signature and 'take' on the music.
For me, with speakers, a wide sound-radiating area makes for a big, expansive and effortless sound, which helps create realistic scale, but of course other things matter, too :)
Marco.
Most of the front of an electrostatic is part of the drivers so doesn't behave like a wide piece of wood with conventional drivers mounted in it.
Personally I have yet to take to any wide baffle conventional design, I personally think in most I have heard the width of the cabinet has effected the speakers ability to do pin point imaging, and I also tend to agree with Jerry that no cabinet is best, my Gallo's have no cabinet, so image very well and are also free of cabinet colouration. I tend these days to be able to hear cabinet colouration more easily because of my time with the Gallos.
I am not saying wide baffle designs are bad, nor are they all badly coloured, or incapable of imaging but the ones I have heard to date, well.... they just aren't for me.
No problem, Neil. It's all different strokes for different folks. At least you don't have the gall to tell me what the sound is like that I'm listening to, even though you've never heard it! ;)
Anyway... One thing I can assure you is that Tannoy DCs have no problem with imaging, as the 'point source' effect of their drivers helps them greatly in that respect. However, they're not perfect, no speakers are.
It's just a pity you live so far away, as it would be great to have a sesh with you sometime and listen to all sorts of music. If you ever fancy a long weekend in Wales, we'd gladly put you up :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
20-10-2016, 18:55
No problem, Neil. It's all different strokes for different folks. At least you don't have the gall to tell me what the sound is like that I'm listening to, even though you've never heard it! ;)
Anyway... One thing I can assure you is that Tannoy DCs have no problem with imaging, as the 'point source' effect of their drivers helps them greatly in that respect. However, they're not perfect, no speakers are.
It's just a pity you live so far away, as it would be great to have a sesh with you sometime and listen to all sorts of music. If you ever fancy a long weekend in Wales, we'd gladly put you up :cool:
Marco.
I have no idea how your system sounds, but certainly some day would like to. Thank you I might well take you up on that very kind offer, an offer I will also extend.
Heard vintage Tannoys (corners and lancasters) demoed with vintage valve amps by vintage blokes and it was terrible.
Heard Marco's Lockies, Pauls RFC Canterburys, and some fifteens (not sure of the progeny might have been HPDs) in massive home built cabs at Scalford and all were excellent. They maybe don't have the last bit of neutrality but they are close enough so that they can show up the differences in recordings adequately, and at the same time make any type of music you play an enjoyable listen. In a game of compromises that balance is what a lot of people want I think. Only expense, WAF and the perception that they need a big room count against them.
You'd be most welcome, Neil. It's something we should've done years ago! :)
I'll get the new kitchen fitted and out the way first, as the house is like a bomb site just now, and we'll do something in the New Year :cool:
Marco.
Spectral Morn
20-10-2016, 19:18
You'd be most welcome, Neil. It's something we should've done years ago! :)
I'll get the new kitchen fitted and out the way first, as the house is like a bomb site just now, and we'll do something in the New Year :cool:
Marco.
No worries, let me know.
paulf-2007
20-10-2016, 19:21
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Excavation-Haxan-Cloak/dp/B00BB1FT62[/QUOTE]
Had a listen to that, would be good as a film soundtrack but why anyone would buy it to listen at home is beyond me.
Heard Marco's Lockies, Pauls RFC Canterburys, and some fifteens (not sure of the progeny might have been HPDs) in massive home built cabs at Scalford and all were excellent. They maybe don't have the last bit of neutrality but they are close enough so that they can show up the differences in recordings adequately, and at the same time make any type of music you play an enjoyable listen. In a game of compromises that balance is what a lot of people want I think. Only expense, WAF and the perception that they need a big room count against them.
A perfectly fair summary, Martin, and one I agree with.
You know yourself I couldn't have lived with my own Tannoys in stock form, as they sounded tubby, shut in and rather old-fashioned, just as you've described, even though I could hear some serious potential under all that, but changing and upgrading the crossovers with the best modern components drastically altered that state of affairs, and simply released their latent potential, enabling you to enjoy what you did last time you were round :)
One of the things on forums I abhor with a passion is 'trial by specs' - and folk who *think* they know exactly how something sounds, simply because of what it says 'on paper', and then proceed to preach on that basis... Man, that FUCKS ME OFF in ways you couldn't even begin to comprehend :steam:
It's one of the things I hated happening on other forums, when I was a part of them, and one of the reasons why AoS was created - to get away from that type of blinkered, 'black or white' mentality, and so I will simply not tolerate it here in any shape or form! :nono:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
20-10-2016, 19:35
You will notice it was "not fully modded ones" I referred to. IE stock. Just saying what I heard myself in the past!
walpurgis
20-10-2016, 19:48
That's not to say 'stock' Tannoys can't sound good. Some sound remarkable without being adulterated. Others, perhaps not so great.
You will notice it was not "fully modded ones" I referred to. IE stock.
Yes, but you still proceeded to preach about how Tannoys sound, *automatically*, simply based on the "coloration" angle, without qualifying that you'd only heard stock ones until the end, and made no allowances for the fact that successfully modified ones could sound markedly LESS coloured!
In effect, your criticism was all-encompassing/blanket in nature, which is what I objected to. This is the bit that pissed me off:
Large cones equals large colouration as do wide baffles as there is more wood to resonate. I personally find Tannoys completely unacceptable from a colouration POV.
It's all rather sweeping and dismissive, not to mention full of superficial thinking.
ALL speakers are coloured to some degree, including your own and BBC monitors. The fact is you don't know how coloured mine are until you listen to them, and thus form a valid opinion on that, simply because no two pairs of modded Tannoy DCs are the same, or - and this is the crucial bit - how "completely unacceptable" they are for you until you *actually* listen to them!!
What would've been nice (and less dismissive/sweeping) is if you'd said something along the lines of:
"All the Tannoy DCs I've heard so far are to my ears completely unacceptable, due to their coloration, but as I haven't heard any successfully modified ones, I don't know whether they'd be more acceptable or not."
Can you appreciate the difference? You're still making the same point, but less arrogantly and liable to rub someone up the wrong way, whilst showing some consideration for the fact that you're not an expert in this specific area.
Now, if you'd said the above instead, I'd have thought 'fair comment', rather than [insert various expletives here:steam:], and we wouldn't be having this conversation now... ;)
Marco.
CornishPasty
21-10-2016, 06:29
And of course it was definitely the speakers at fault, not anything else upstream, or the room, or a combination of both? ;)
I'm teasing of course, Ralph, and they could indeed be crap, but you know that hi-fi shows are never the best places to conclusively judge anything :)
What was it about them you didn't like, and can you remember what the partnering system was?
Marco.
If you're demonstrating at a hifi show why would you demo in less than favourable surroundings? I appreciate that some rooms just don't work for some equipment but then it's time to make a decision rather than risk getting bad press or losing sales.
From memory the sound was thin and lacking in extension. If I can find my programme I can fill you in on the finer details.
Ralph, you don't usually get to choose the room you're demonstrating in at a hi-fi show. You get what you're given from the organisers, which could easily be sub-optimal, or even completely unsuitable for the speakers concerned - and less face it, speaker/room interaction is one of the biggest factors in getting any system to sound right.
Then of course, you've got the influence of the amps and source(s). Honestly, some exhibitors put little thought into the issue of synergy, and just throw any gear together for quickness sake, consequently producing a poor sound. It's one of the reasons why I rarely go to shows these days, and almost never form any conclusive opinions on anything I hear there :cool:
Marco.
CornishPasty
21-10-2016, 15:41
That's fair enough Marco but these people know the most likely environment for their speakers will be a domestic one so they really need to make a speaker which will work pretty much anywhere. That's not much to ask is it?
Yes, it is a massive ask.
paulf-2007
21-10-2016, 15:57
Yes, but you still proceeded to preach about how Tannoys sound, *automatically*, simply based on the "coloration" angle, without qualifying that you'd only heard stock ones until the end, and made no allowances for the fact that successfully modified ones could sound markedly LESS coloured than stock ones.
In effect, your criticism was all-encompassing/blanket in nature, which is what I objected to. This is the bit that pissed me off:
It's all rather sweeping and dismissive.
ALL speakers are coloured to some degree, including your own and BBC monitors. The fact is you don't know how coloured mine are until you listen to them, and thus form a valid opinion on that, simply because no two pairs of modded Tannoy DCs are the same, or - and this is the crucial bit - how "completely unacceptable" they are for you until you *actually* listen to them!!
What would've been nice (and less dismissive/sweeping) is if you'd said something along the lines of:
"All the Tannoy DCs I've heard so far are to my ears completely unacceptable, due to their coloration, but as I haven't heard any successfully modified ones, I don't know whether they'd be more acceptable or not."
Can you appreciate the difference? You're still making the same point, but less arrogantly and dismissively, and liable to rub someone up the wrong way, whilst showing some consideration for the fact that you're not an expert in this specific area.
Now, if you'd said the above instead, I'd have thought 'fair comment', rather than [insert various expletives here:steam:], and we wouldn't be having this conversation now... ;)
Marco.so consider yourself rubbed up the wrong way:lol:
As Martin says, just a tad, Ralph...
Rooms have massively more influence on the sound of a hi-fi system than anything else, so how can any loudspeaker manufacturer possibly know the acoustic properties of your room, and then design speakers to optimise that?
It's a lottery, mate! :)
Marco.
so consider yourself rubbed up the wrong way:lol:
Lol... Rub-a-dub dub, three men in a... :D
Marco.
Yes, please. Croft 1963 :)
Marco.
I was meaning full range speakers since the problem with the speaker/ room interaction is with bass, The lower you go the more problems it creates. If the room is large enough then it is just a question of positioning so as not to excite the nodes. As the room gets smaller this solution won't work as higher register bass will excite the nodes and you get uneven bass that may boom at some frequencies.
Small speakers are often balanced with a frequency lift centered at around 100 Hz so they don't sound bass light. In a very small room this may be a problem, in a typical room it will sound like the speaker has subjectively good bass. But they will not have much output below 70 hz so will not excite the room. Play something that relies on bass below this frequency to work and you will be disappointed but otherwise they will be fine. This is why people are often amazed by 'deep bass from such a small speaker' although in fact the speaker is not producing any deep bass at all. Of course overdo the lift and you get a sound that will be too coloured to be convincing, and will be overblown with music that already has a lot of energy in the mid-bass.
So with a small speaker it should in theory work anywhere but ideally we want to hear the entire recording, not just the parts above 70Hz. It should also be considered that with instruments recorded in an acoustic the deeper bass will contain ambient clues about the recording space, not reproducing them will reduce the illusion of reality. So even if you have no desire for deep bass you are still missing out on other aspects by not having it.
Whilst I can enjoy most music through small speakers, for me they are really just one step up from headphones in terms of the visceral experience. I don't bother with headphones at all as they remove the physical element of the appreciation entirely
Port?
Yes, please. Croft 1963 :)
:D
It was a very good year! :cheers:
Marco.
paulf-2007
22-10-2016, 07:10
Indeed, I was given two bottles of '63 don't remember whose, both now consumed.
I was meaning full range speakers since the problem with the speaker/ room interaction is with bass, The lower you go the more problems it creates. If the room is large enough then it is just a question of positioning so as not to excite the nodes. As the room gets smaller this solution won't work as higher register bass will excite the nodes and you get uneven bass that may boom at some frequencies.
Small speakers are often balanced with a frequency lift centered at around 100 Hz so they don't sound bass light. In a very small room this may be a problem, in a typical room it will sound like the speaker has subjectively good bass. But they will not have much output below 70 hz so will not excite the room. Play something that relies on bass below this frequency to work and you will be disappointed but otherwise they will be fine. This is why people are often amazed by 'deep bass from such a small speaker' although in fact the speaker is not producing any deep bass at all. Of course overdo the lift and you get a sound that will be too coloured to be convincing, and will be overblown with music that already has a lot of energy in the mid-bass.
So with a small speaker it should in theory work anywhere but ideally we want to hear the entire recording, not just the parts above 70Hz. It should also be considered that with instruments recorded in an acoustic the deeper bass will contain ambient clues about the recording space, not reproducing them will reduce the illusion of reality. So even if you have no desire for deep bass you are still missing out on other aspects by not having it.
Whilst I can enjoy most music through small speakers, for me they are really just one step up from headphones in terms of the visceral experience. I don't bother with headphones at all as they remove the physical element of the appreciation entirely
Good post, Martin.
People tend to focus too much on room size, rather on room quality and believe that bigger is always better, which is a total fallacy. I also enjoy listening to small speakers sometimes, which is why I have the Ditton 15XRs downstairs in the lounge (connected to the system upstairs), and the Tannoys upstairs. It's quite educational listening to the exact same electronics, though different speakers in a different room!
The alternative 'takes' on the music is fascinating, and really gives you an insight into how much influence rooms and speakers have on the sound of your electronics, which is why I'm completely au fait with the pros and cons of both large and small speaker approaches, and happy to accept their respective compromises. The fact is, I can happily listen to music, for hours on end, in both rooms and through both set of speakers. It's a handy set-up to have! :)
For me though, good big 'uns have a better overall balance of compromises than their smaller counterparts. To my ears, they just sound more musically convincing.
Unlike you, I occasionally like listening through headphones, as I enjoy the 'intimacy' of the experience, not to mention the fact that you get to hear almost exactly what your source components sound like, minus any influence from the room. Good headphones, through a quality headphone amp, can be a revelation in that respect.
It's also a really good way of setting up a turntable [or for that matter minimising any hum], as the effect of all those minute adjustments to VTA, VTF, azimuth, etc, is so much more obvious on a pair of revealing high-quality headphones, than when listening externally through your main speakers. Trust me, if after making those adjustments, records sound superb that way, they'll generally sound fantastic, heard externally through your speakers! :cool:
Marco.
Good post, Martin.
People tend to focus too much on room size, rather on room quality and believe that bigger is always better, which is a total fallacy
Agreed about Martin's post, I want my music to sound as realistic as possible across all frequencies...with reference to an earlier post about Jazz, this just in...Jazz bands have double basses and kick drums too...check out Gogo Penguin ;)
It's not just the size of the room, it's the shape and positioning too...:)
Based on other users reviews I decided to go for an IPL transmission line kit, a few years ago (3 to be precise, the build was a long story). Ivan from IPL was reluctant to sell me anything until I'd given him my room (15 by 27), kit, and positioning details...thankfully they are all a great match for his largest offering the S5TL.
It did take a few weeks of tweaking, with position and damping, to get things right...mostly because I didn't RTFM...length-ways down the rectangular room, and NO TOEING IN...I suppose one should always listen to the designer ;)
Transmission lines are in another league entirely, mine have bass where previously there was no bass. Nothing sounds bass light, not even unaccompanied acoustic guitar.
Just like the real thing...:)
As a sh1t bass guitarist, I'm rather keen on hearing what the good ones are up to...there's a reason Jah Wobble's label is called "30Hz" ;)
Hi Will,
I want my music to sound as realistic as possible across all frequencies...with reference to an earlier post about Jazz, this just in...Jazz bands have double basses and kick drums too...check out Gogo Penguin ;)
Exactly. I think some folks get the wrong impression when we're talking about deep bass, scale, slam, etc. It's not about creating a 'boom, boom' thumping effect, akin to some chav's car stereo inside his souped-up Nova :eyebrows:; it's about reproducing the fundamental sound frequencies and tonal characteristics of ALL musical instruments and voices, as convincingly and realistically as possible!
And I'm afraid that's not going to happen with a diddy-sized pair of fashion-victim WAF boxes... :nono:
One of the acoustic instruments I love reproducing most is snare (or kick) drum, because that's when the term 'there's no replacement for displacement' is most relevant. You simply can't reproduce such drum sounds realistically without speakers that do slam and scale - and it's extremely hard to do well, because it tests not only your speakers, but every other aspect of your system [speed, control, dynamic attack, etc].
Quite simply, if you've ever been in the same room as someone playing a drum kit rather 'enthusiastically', you'll *know* what visceral impact is. That's where I judge speakers and systems, in terms of their 'blink factor', because it's what your eyelids do automatically when someone smacks a snare drum hard!
And the greater the 'blink factor', the better the system (and speakers) are at reproducing that effect. And it's not simply 'sonic pyrotechnics' either; it's all part of what you should be hearing when that particular instrument is being used.
My favourite material for testing my system in that way is some of the 'Return to Forever' albums with Stanley Clarke, Chick Corea and Al di Meola, and when Lenny White 'gives it laldy' on drums. Talk about a system workout! :eek:
Try playing the likes of this LOUD on a pair of WAF boxes, or anything with less than 12" drivers in big cabs, and tell me it sounds REAL:
1Lig5Ta90cg
;)
Marco.
Gordon Steadman
22-10-2016, 11:59
Blurry 'ell, did you actually like that? I thought it one of the most boring and er.......'unmusical' bit of drumming I have ever heard. Turned it off before it got to real levels as Ronnie was wincing:lol:
Indeed Marco, drums should have impact...
I bought this CD before my IPLs were installed, and given it's on the Naim label I was unimpressed by the production...
wmN3vFIukk4
...however on my new speakers...wow!
Hard to believe the main drummer is from Aberdeen...;)
It's Seb Roachford's latest project, the use of tuba as bass is superb
Gordon Steadman
22-10-2016, 12:58
Quite apart from choice in music, I do agree that a bit of real depth and slam can be fun. Dragged out Ronnie's Pioneer behemoth and connected up some 12inchers.
Sounds terrific and the bass drum kicks the stomach as well as the ears....but......I have never heard any coned loudspeaker that gives me what I want - that includes giant US Wilson stuff and both standard and modded Tannoys. Only the Quads give me the clarity that I need to be happy listening to music for long periods, so back into mothballs these go. Bloody impressive though.
So, wide baffles - jolly good.
Cones - OK
Clingfilm - where it's at:cool:
Music choices? - each to their own unless I says it's boring:ner:
https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5529/30370792002_81d52f33cb.jpg
Nice big amp that. Must try my sony with these new speakers. See how it performs.been a while
Gordon Steadman
22-10-2016, 14:15
This is one that give a lie to the rubbish we got in the past about Brits did it better than the Japanese. My Sony is pretty damned good too driving the KEF 101s. Ronnie had it driving some small JBLs - Danish variety - that really don't do it justice. My big old bitsas love it and it's surprisingly delicate at the other end of the scale as well. Just wish it wasn't so damned heavy - hernia time!
Quite chuffed as I've managed to find a setting on the hearing aids that allows me to abandon the headphones and go back to proper stuff. Better than I expected.
Thats handy Gordon. Always nice to be able to use good speakers if u can. Not an earphone person now. Think its the disconnection from the world that does it. Having been a carer for a long time, and having had to be able to hear cries etc, i now need to be aware, even though there are no more cries and requests. Bloody odd but hey, i seem to be stuck with it.
Blurry 'ell, did you actually like that? I thought it one of the most boring and er.......'unmusical' bit of drumming I have ever heard. Turned it off before it got to real levels as Ronnie was wincing:lol:
Hi Gordon,
That particular piece was not supposed to sound musical; it's simply a test to see how realistically your system reproduces drums! ;)
Another good test is the drum solo on Led Zep's Moby Dick - but just use the whole track, because the beginning is the 'musical bit' and sounds just as awesome... :guitar: :hairmetal: :hairmetal:
r9-42mu1D9Y
Johnny baby, you ARE da man!! :respect:
Marco.
To my mind the best drummer ever...
The lad with floating points isn't bad either, I saw these at the blue dot festival absolutely superb;
yYqu5NdFMf8
https://youtu.be/YMeUGpnVVbo
now this is a drummer;)
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