PDA

View Full Version : Do you feel guilty using tone controls ??



rigger67
13-10-2016, 16:07
Last night, having rearranged my room a bit, I was finally able to plug my laptop into my DAC using the USB connection rather than the headphone out (previously I couldn't get a signal using a longer cable) and the sound was incredible !

I had deeeeeeeep bass (from a pair of ProAc Tablettes) and everything sounded wonderful : it was a revelation.

I'm playing either downloaded mp3s or CDs ripped to WAV from my own collection and running them through MediaMonkey.



I then looked at the settings and realised I had the equaliser enabled, so I was getting my own personal settings (more bass and treble, basically) rather than a flat signal.

I immediately felt guilty and switched it off and was left with a relatively dull, flat-sounding listening experience.

.. and yet I never use tone controls on the pre-amp.
They're always set to defeat.

I think it's because I grew up learning about hi-fi in an age where the source was king and nothing should ever be taken from that holy signal ...


Well, now I'm nearly 50 I think I'm gonna stop listening to that inner voice and start fiddling with the tone controls .. at least until I get a passive pre- and no longer have that choice.



Anyone else feel the shame when they reach for those naughty buttons ?? :eek:

Wakefield Turntables
13-10-2016, 16:16
I don't own any!

walpurgis
13-10-2016, 16:21
I don't own any!

What are they? :D

Barry
13-10-2016, 16:21
Most Baxandall-style tone controls are too crude to be effective, but judicious use of an equaliser can be helpful as long as the boost/cut is not too large (say no more than 2dB). I don't have tone controls on the gear I use now, but when I had a Quad 44, I found the 'tilt' control could help clear up a thick-sounding recording. But again the tilt of the nominally flat response was no more than -1/+1dB.

Ignore much of what you were told/read in the '80: the Flat Earthers spouted a lot of nonesense, much of it now discredited - but the damage has been done.

Follow your ears, if the use of tone controls helps you to enjoy music more, then who cares what others say or think?

Gordon Steadman
13-10-2016, 16:21
Nope, never use them, not even the subtle ones on the Quad34 in the bedroom.

Mind you, I have never noticed any lack without them so it's probably 50 years since I tried any!!

Marco
13-10-2016, 16:41
Follow your ears, if the use of tone controls helps you to enjoy music more, then who cares what others say or think?

This ^^

I don't use tone controls, because I don't need them, but if you do, use them and fook what anyone else thinks or what is deemed as 'correct'! :exactly:

Marco.

hifi_dave
13-10-2016, 16:47
Well designed tone controls, such as on earlier Quad amps can be useful to correct iffy recordings but most controls are too crude. Unfortunately, you don't really have a choice nowadays, as tone controls are like hens' teeth.

Arkless Electronics
13-10-2016, 17:07
What makes me chuckle is all the "tone controls are evil" on the one hand and then some people choosing gear that is so coloured it is tone controls!!

There's nothing to fear from tone controls and well designed ones will be pretty transparent at mid position...

struth
13-10-2016, 17:09
As i said in anther thread. Nowt wrong using them if it makes the sound sound better to you. Why suffer pish sounds just for audiophile authenticity? Obviously you cant use them if your amp doesnt have but if it does, then use if it sounds better.. if it doesnt then dont..simples.

wee tee cee
13-10-2016, 17:12
If I read Pauls post correctly he is referring to the equaliser you get on digital players like i tunes. It is like a graphic equaliser that lets you choose soundscapes or tailor it to your preference.

Its worth a tinker with just to experiment-I do tend to leave it on flat but have been known to try different settings (usually when pished!!)

Macca
13-10-2016, 17:24
If I read Pauls post correctly he is referring to the equaliser you get on digital players like i tunes. It is like a graphic equaliser that lets you choose soundscapes or tailor it to your preference.

Its worth a tinker with just to experiment-I do tend to leave it on flat but have been known to try different settings (usually when pished!!)

Yes, he is eqing digitally, which wasn't an option in the flat earth days. Whether you eq in either domain you might in fact be flattening the in-room response so it could theoretically be more accurate to the source, from the listener's perspective, not less.

rigger67
13-10-2016, 17:25
If I read Pauls post correctly he is referring to the equaliser you get on digital players like i tunes. It is like a graphic equaliser that lets you choose soundscapes or tailor it to your preference.

Its worth a tinker with just to experiment-I do tend to leave it on flat but have been known to try different settings (usually when pished!!)

Actually, no I meant do you use the bass and treble controls on amps if you have 'em ?

What made me feel guilty in the first place was the fact I'd used the equaliser on the software for listening through the laptop speakers (I know !!) and that made me wonder what the difference was, in terms of why did I do it for one bit of kit but not the other ..

I think I was just brainwashed.

Balls to it - I'm gonna be fiddling like crazy now :)

wee tee cee
13-10-2016, 17:53
oops....

Martyn Miles
13-10-2016, 17:59
No.
They have their uses...

Rothchild
13-10-2016, 18:07
My general preference is for not, but the other day I had the opportunity to put up some (rather unglamorous) CelestionDL4s, they're designed to go close to a wall (and use proximity effect to boost their bass output) because of the situation they're in I can't get them close enough to the back wall and subsequently an already bright speaker has no bass to speak of either.

So I rolled off a fist full of top end and nudged in just a smidge of low (just using the 'twisties' on the front of the amp) and whadyaknow, really quite listenable!

For purists another concern with using eq is that regardless of digital or analogue implementation it will squew the phase response of the material going through it (and yes you can have a 'linear phase' digital eq, but these are subject to 'ringing' around the turnover point) so, if you are committed to the purity of the source and source material it's always better to try and rectify issues with room treatment, speaker arrangement etc first.

User211
13-10-2016, 18:15
Actually, no I meant do you use the bass and treble controls on amps if you have 'em ?

What made me feel guilty in the first place was the fact I'd used the equaliser on the software for listening through the laptop speakers (I know !!) and that made me wonder what the difference was, in terms of why did I do it for one bit of kit but not the other ..

I think I was just brainwashed.

Balls to it - I'm gonna be fiddling like crazy now :)

Buy a measurement mic. See what your FR looks like. Use multiband digital EQ to correct any obvious flaws. If closeish to flat doesn't sound good, and it won't for some recordings, especially given large full range speakers, just EQ it to sound as OK as you can.

Some stuff just sounds crap even with compensating by ear adjusted EQ. Tis life.


I don't recommend DIRAC or the like.

killie99
13-10-2016, 18:18
I have them on my amp, Luxman L550aii, and use them now and again. I even use the 'loudness' button at night :ner: Anyway, everyone has tone controls of some sort it's just that they're fixed - speakers, amps, cables .....

walpurgis
13-10-2016, 18:19
I've had a modest graphic equaliser on my shelf for twenty years. The only use I've given it, is to test to see if it works. I've kept it in case I ever want to record from sixties and early seventies records, which are often pretty thin sounding low down. Tamla Motown springs to mind.

The Black Adder
13-10-2016, 18:31
As a lot of us here, we all have grown up with those types of controls on our systems but for well over 20 years now I've not used them because I feel that bass and treble controls seem to over cook the sound. An EQ is better as it's more adjustable and less blanket forced. But an EQ can also kill the dynamics with lot's of complications in the signal path.

I choose not to use either and I'm perfectly happy with doing so. To hear the recording as it was mastered is for me the most intriguing and natural thing.

User211
13-10-2016, 18:38
I think the point is you don't know what is flat til you measure yer systemo.

You sit there thinking it is flat, but it probably isn't. Truth is it is probably quite a bit away from flat. A bit of a play with some EQ might actually be making it quite a bit flatter unbeknown to you. Lest you measurebate.

Stratmangler
13-10-2016, 21:03
I have the tone controls off (there's a defeat button on my amp).

Going back to the bit about using USB - is your laptop a Windows machine?
There can be readily noticeable gains to be had with Windows machines using WASAPI or ASIO drivers for the connected audio device (in your case the DAC).
It's all to do with prioritising Windows resources to audio playback.
Does Media Monkey have such drivers to plug into your existing installation?

rigger67
13-10-2016, 21:06
Going back to the bit about using USB - is your laptop a Windows machine?
There can be readily noticeable gains to be had with Windows machines using WASAPI or ASIO drivers for the connected audio device (in your case the DAC).
It's all to do with prioritising Windows resources to audio playback.
Does Media Monkey have such drivers to plug into your existing installation?

Yes, it's Windows - about 18 months old, Lenovo.
No idea about what you're asking I'm afraid.
I'm using the free version of Media Monkey.

I guess I'll have to look into it to find out more.
Thanks for the heads up ..

Stratmangler
13-10-2016, 21:18
Try looking at WASAPI drivers first - I've just had a quick Google, and it looks like there are drivers available.
An 18 month old machine will likely as not have Windows 8.1 on it, so WASAPI drivers would be appropriate, although ultimately it's down to the audio hardware - there might not be drivers available for it.
If that's the case try ASIO drivers.

rigger67
13-10-2016, 21:36
Try looking at WASAPI drivers first - I've just had a quick Google, and it looks like there are drivers available.
An 18 month old machine will likely as not have Windows 8.1 on it, so WASAPI drivers would be appropriate, although ultimately it's down to the audio hardware - there might not be drivers available for it.
If that's the case try ASIO drivers.

Yeah, it's Win8.1.
Thanks again - I'll check it out :)

dave2010
13-10-2016, 23:15
This ^^

I don't use tone controls, because I don't need them, but if you do, use them and fook what anyone else thinks or what is deemed as 'correct'! :exactly:

Marco.I don't use tone controls either - perhaps because my current kit doesn't have them (unless I run through a laptop and put a software equaliser in).

However, I do have multple copies of some CDs (essentially the same performance) in different remasterings and some sound much fuller and richer than others. If tone controls can give that effect, why not use them? Whatever floats your boat ..... A lot of hi-fi sound is artificial anyway, so if you think you can get a better result by using tone controls what's wrong with giving it a try. There's no law against it.

Joe
14-10-2016, 08:47
I have tone controls in the downstairs system and use them (a tiny bit of treble lift to counter the slightly 'dead' acoustics). Being Catholic, I feel guilty about everything.

Sherwood
14-10-2016, 08:56
Go for whatever sounds best to you. Personally, I prefer to put a system together which obviates the need for equalization so none of my equipment has "tone" controls. I generally find that the treble and bass adjustments are too crude to improve on the basic signal anyway.

Geoff

jandl100
14-10-2016, 09:03
For me the main point of the OP was that the tone-controlled sound was listened to without Paul being aware of it ... a genuine blind test.
"Wow, this album sounds great! ...... oops, the equaliser is on! Doesn't sound half as good without it." type of thing.

Which of us would respond differently in the same circumstances?


I think the point is you don't know what is flat til you measure yer systemo.

You sit there thinking it is flat, but it probably isn't. Truth is it is probably quite a bit away from flat. A bit of a play with some EQ might actually be making it quite a bit flatter unbeknown to you. Lest you measurebate.

Yep. Well, something like that.
Justin, unusually, got noticeably irritated with me on a recent visit to his place when I said I thought my system had deeper bass than his beloved Apogee 'Interstellas'.
"It measures flat to 20Hz!!" he insisted, quite loudly. "Your MBLs don't go that low."

Oops. Correct.
I'd forgotten that unless a little stuffed in the bass ports there is a significant bass hump in my system - and I love it that way. It makes it seem deeper to me, even if it isn't. :)

User211
14-10-2016, 09:39
Mine might be flat at 21 Hz, but is doesn't mean they are flat all the way down to 21Hz. 30Hz and 60Hz are definitely more than flat, so to speak, especially 30 Hz, which is quite a bit up.

It is possible to alter it by messing around with panel tension and placing card behind the speakers. But I don't want to alter it. It is awesome as it is. The bass reproduction is a strong reason why I use the speakers. The bass reproduction is outstanding in my book.

At a guess Jerrys are probably hyped around 40-50 Hz in room. They do sound good, albeit in a cone/box speaker kind of a way with some box resonance. I honestly prefer the bass to the MBL101E. Better the cones than that big MBL omni driver I think for upper bass.

So whose bass is better? Mine of course:lol:;)

Frequency response aberrations are a huge reason why some people prefer one speaker over another, and why some material sounds better on one system and not on the other and vice versa.

Playing with EQ is totally legit to get the sound you want IMHO. In some respects it is idiotic NOT to use it. If it sounds better, do it! There's no standard in the studio and the monitors any album was mixed on almost definitely have a markedly different response to your system.

Marco
14-10-2016, 10:41
Justin, unusually, got noticeably irritated with me on a recent visit to his place when I said I thought my system had deeper bass than his beloved Apogee 'Interstellas'.
"It measures flat to 20Hz!!" he insisted, quite loudly. "Your MBLs don't go that low."

Oops. Correct.
I'd forgotten that unless a little stuffed in the bass ports there is a significant bass hump in my system - and I love it that way. It makes it seem deeper to me, even if it isn't. :)

Nothing wrong with that - you like what you like. For me, I don't really get off on 'how low does it go?' (unless I'm listening to organ music), but rather can I *feel* the bass rattle my ribcage, when the music demands?

Therefore, trouser-flapping SCALE is what wiggles my wick, not necessarily super-deep bass, and in that respect there is no substitute for big-boy woofers, housed in suitably big-boy cabinets. You need to SHIFT AIR, muchachos!!

No need for any artificial or disjointed bass-boost, from an equaliser or a sub either... :eyebrows:

Marco.