View Full Version : 1210 leaves me cold
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 02:05
Just got one, with a Jelco 750 D arm, couldn't wait to switch it off. Why??? It looks so nice aswell. Can't wait to plug my Heybrook TT2 back in tomorrow.
Sounds lifeless, closed in, and just plain horrible, a Rega p3 would outdo this. Is it really so bad in its stock form? Don't really wanna spend £100s modding, as yet its given me no reason to like it. And after initial excitement about all those light and switches, I'm now rather 'meh', pointless bloody pitch control, and I only got about 10 45s! So if anybody wants a mint (and I mean mint) one with a mint 750 D, it'll soon be in classifieds I expect.
Audio Al
12-10-2016, 02:35
Just got one, with a Jelco 750 D arm, couldn't wait to switch it off. Why??? It looks so nice aswell. Can't wait to plug my Heybrook TT2 back in tomorrow.
Sounds lifeless, closed in, and just plain horrible, a Rega p3 would outdo this. Is it really so bad in its stock form? Don't really wanna spend £100s modding, as yet its given me no reason to like it. And after initial excitement about all those light and switches, I'm now rather 'meh', pointless bloody pitch control, and I only got about 10 45s! So if anybody wants a mint (and I mean mint) one with a mint 750 D, it'll soon be in classifieds I expect.
Something must be wrong somewhere , With the better arm and a std 1210 they sound decent , You don't say what cartridge you are using ? I use the 45 rpm for selected 12" singles
ludovico
12-10-2016, 04:55
Just got one, with a Jelco 750 D arm, couldn't wait to switch it off. Why??? It looks so nice aswell. Can't wait to plug my Heybrook TT2 back in tomorrow.
Sounds lifeless, closed in, and just plain horrible, a Rega p3 would outdo this. Is it really so bad in its stock form? Don't really wanna spend £100s modding, as yet its given me no reason to like it. And after initial excitement about all those light and switches, I'm now rather 'meh', pointless bloody pitch control, and I only got about 10 45s! So if anybody wants a mint (and I mean mint) one with a mint 750 D, it'll soon be in classifieds I expect.
Yeah, there is something wrong with your setup, because the Jeclo 750D is one of the best tonearms in the market. My stock SL1210 does not sound decent, it does sound fantastic compared with either a Rega P3 or a Thorens 160.
The pitch control is very useful if you are a musician and want to play along with a record ;)
dave2010
12-10-2016, 05:49
I haven't got one, don't know much about it, but it does sound as though this might helpfully be checked out by someone in the area.
If others are suggesting it should be good, and yours doesn't to you, then before abandoning it it could be worth seeing if anyone can help.
What's the cartridge? What doesn't sound right?
Different people want different things. One deck does not fit all.
If it is set up correctly and you don't like it then it is time to move it on.
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 06:39
Well, I did have a second hand SL-1200 MKII some 15 years ago. Then got a new Stanton ST 8-100. I play mainly 45 from the sixties and seventies so the start-stop thing is indeed rather convenient coupled with a nervous motor. Some 6 years ago only I got convinced by some audio-geek to switch for some "vintage" phono set-ups accordingly. I didn't understand what it meant and implied sound wise but I didn't like the idea of the fake wood plinth, worn top-plate and stained platter of an "old" turntable... So I was very reluctant to go all the way since I was and am still very happy with my contemporary (year 2000) amp & pre-amp mainly.
First I accepted to go for "vintage" speakers to indeed a first acknowledged improvement. A while after I invested in a Denon DL-102 mono cartridge that required a fitting tonearm. On a budget I got a Thorens TD-147 'Jubilee' fitted with an SME 'Improved' tonearm. I would never have believe that I'd switch from direct drive to belt drive. But after the first play I was totally convinced. Open and airy thanks to the belt drive and suspended chassis against the closed and muffled sound of the direct drive and ultra damped plinth. The start-stop thing and the quick start became irrelevant advantages in comparaison.
I now have worked on my SME tonearm and Thorens turntable to blow their potential to great-great satisfaction sound wise as visually. I could never go back to those DJ turntable ! Now, they are convenient to DJ with, but I've even DJ'ed lately once with a pair of Lenco's L-76 and once with only one L-75 (in a bar so the "blanks" between the singles were not "chocking") to great enjoyment. Only less confortable without the start-stop thingy... not to worry, I always was old school there and I "select" & DON'T "mix" my records...
You certainly are not des ribi g my SL1200, but it is not standard.
I would also not agree that the standard platter is overdamped. Yes the mat is not particularly great, but is cheap to change.
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 07:27
I am not dissing the SL-12x0 turntable or those who can enjoy their "improved" versions. But they were made and designed for DJ purpose. That is fine and I can believe they can be "converted" into a "homie" TT doing a proper job. Still I (myself that is) can't go back to it now that I've letted down my pre-conceptions about new versus vintage. I'm even more critical now that my ears are "judgmental free". Now it also depends on the format of music you are playing and indeed the cartridge you have accordingly or not. I've heard once a real nice fully revised vintage 10.000 € phono set-up doing a magnificent job with jazz LP's and doing the worth job with 7 inches. So there you go also.
One small point - The SL1200 was originally a home HiFi deck, later adopted by DJs.
You don't like it. I accept that we are all different.
One day I may find a different turntable that I prefer, and more importantly, can afford, that is better than my SL1200. At that point, I will also move on.
Just a few comments...
First of all, I'm sorry that Mike's wasted money on a turntable that he doesn't like. No idea what's going on there, as if all is ok (in terms of functionality and set-up), an SL-1210 fitted with a Jelco arm and a decent cartridge should sound good, and certainly not as poor as he describes.
However, whether that "good" is as good as the listener is looking for, and indeed expects, compared with other stuff he or she has heard, is of course subjective and down to personal taste.
Without listening to Mike's 1210 I can't comment. Save to say, though, that his description is quite different to what I've heard many times from stock 1210s fitted with Jelco arms, although I can relate to what he's describing in terms of plinths and damping - and the fundamental sonic differences between belt and direct-drive T/Ts.
Lastly, I have to correct Tim on a very common error. Neither the SL-1200 nor the 1210 were originally created as DJ turntables. This is the original turntable Technics produced in 1972 (SL-120), as a bonafide item designed solely for hi-fi purposes (note the lack of arm or pitch control):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/921/A8zdz1.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plA8zdz1j)
The fundamental mechanics of the T/T have remained unchanged since then, to what Mike has now [1210 was black and 1200 was silver], although in latter years a pitch control, modified plinth and 'functional' tonearm were fitted, in order to facilitate the needs of DJs and the its increasing use in clubs and also professional environments, such as radio stations and studios, where the robustness, fast-start up time, stability and excellent sound quality of the Technics, were appreciated by DJs and broadcasters alike.
Therefore, despite the SL-1210 in later years being sold in its tens of thousands to users such as the above, it is and never was originally designed as a DJ turntable. It only became known as such because said users were mostly the ones who were buying it.
Anyway, Mike, I hope you find something suitable that you like, should that be the Heybrook, or whatever. What's happened with your 1210 is a shame, and if I lived nearer you, I'd gladly have popped down to see if I could've helped matters, but I'm sure you'll have no problem selling the Technics to someone else. Good luck! :cool:
Marco.
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 08:25
One small point - The SL1200 was originally a home HiFi deck, later adopted by DJs.
You don't like it. I accept that we are all different.
One day I may find a different turntable that I prefer, and more importantly, can afford, that is better than my SL1200. At that point, I will also move on.
Oh well, I went to quick in a hurry and got to search afterward... Once again I got to I live and learn ! Thanks for that "CageyH" and "Marco".
Birth of the SL-1200 by 1972 for home use and adopted by radios and club DJ's. Then the MKII by 1978-9 for the "pro's use" like DJ's and so forth.
18185
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 08:36
Is it right for the Jelco to have so much play? It obviously has vertical and horizontal movement - doh! - but apart from this it moves on both axis about 3mm when it is back in its arm rest, doesn't seem right at all.
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 08:44
Just a few comments... :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco, I'm most obliged. Coming from the other way around; from the SL-1200 MKII to the Thorens TD147 'Jubilee' I know where the 'leaves me cold' stand. I do sell some 45's home and play the customer some of mine for pure sharing pleasure. And it's true, most of the people hearing my phono set-up must first adapt to it. The "sonic signature" is so different but none the less, after the "shock", appreciated. Even more and more with time. But it's true that unless you inherit from a complete set-up or find the "treasure" in a barn, you'll have to spend some $ and brain juice in it. We (I included) all have our "prejudiced" ear for "normal" (physiological) and "emotional" (life) as for "vanity" (ego) reasons sometimes. Cheers (slurp !)
Is it right for the Jelco to have so much play? It obviously has vertical and horizontal movement - doh! - but apart from this it moves on both axis about 3mm when it is back in its arm rest, doesn't seem right at all.
That does not sound right.
Have a look at the Ammonite Acoustics mounting collar.
Oh well, I went to quick in a hurry and got to search afterward... Once again I got to I live and learn ! Thanks for that "CageyH" and "Marco".
Birth of the SL-1200 by 1972 for home use and adopted by radios and club DJ's. Then the MKII by 1978-9 for the "pro's use" like DJ's and so forth.
No worries, Tim, it happens. I just like to stamp hard on that particular myth, whenever it rears its ugly head, as it simply panders to those of an anti-Technics persuasion! ;)
I honestly doubt that an SL-120, fitted with a Jelco arm and the same cartridge Mike's using, would sound much different to the T/T he has now.
Therefore, in terms of fundamental 'sonics', the 1972 Technics, built for hi-fi use, and the the MKII onwards, 'modified for DJs', share much in common, and so the latter doesn't deserve to be referred to in such derogatory terms, as one so often hears, by the uninitiated or those with an anti-Technics/direct-drive agenda.
Marco.
Hi Tim,
Hi Marco, I'm most obliged. Coming from the other way around; from the SL-1200 MKII to the Thorens TD147 'Jubilee' I know where the 'leaves me cold' stand. I do sell some 45's home and play the customer some of mine for pure sharing pleasure. And it's true, most of the people hearing my phono set-up must first adapt to it. The "sonic signature" is so different but none the less, after the "shock", appreciated. Even more and more with time. But it's true that unless you inherit from a complete set-up or find the "treasure" in a barn, you'll have to spend some $ and brain juice in it. We (I included) all have our "prejudiced" ear for "normal" (physiological) and "emotional" (life) as for "vanity" (ego) reasons sometimes. Cheers (slurp !)
You're absolutely right. It depends on what you're used to, and therefore what you expect. Also, belt-drive turntables, by the very nature of how they've been designed and engineered, irrespective of what tonearms or cartridges they're used with, have a fundamentally different 'sonic signature' to D/Ds, which is why its 'horses for courses' which one any given listener will prefer.
You have to remember that ANY turntable in existence is a collection of compromises, so one simply has to chose which compromises one can live with the most.
In general (in my experience), B/Ds will tend to sound 'airier' and more detailed/spacious, slightly 'warmer' too, with a wider and more expansive soundstage (although the effect of that, in terms of what a D/D does, is very plinth dependent), whereas D/Ds will generally sound 'punchier' and more rhythmically adroit, subsequently driving bass lines along with greater aplomb, but are often also leaner and more 'clinical' sounding, with a 'greyer' overall tonal palette, and a tendency to sound 'like master tape', in comparison with most B/Ds.
Some might call it 'soulless', although a percentage of that sonic effect, with D/Ds, is down to the greater overall accuracy of their motor units, which show up the (in comparison) often coloured nature of their B/D counterparts, particularly in the bass, where BDs tend to sound 'looser' (often due to W&F issues) - and that somewhat 'phat bass' and overall warmer presentation can suit certain systems better (not to mention also some genres of music), including pleasing the ears of their listeners, even though the effect may not be entirely accurate.
Those are some of the fundamental sonic differences I usually hear when comparing a good belt-drive T/T with a direct-drive of a similar standard, and like I said, that's before you start playing around with arms and cartridges, both of which of course can have a huge influence on proceedings! :cool:
Marco.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 10:03
Listening to the Technics today, its seems better, I tend to get carried away with first impressions....Still, I can't see its brought benefits, and the bass is quite blurty/boomy, and that jelco tonearm just doesn't seem right it is so loose, it has a shuggie collar on it, wonder whether its been fitted right, it tracks ok. The reason I bough the 1210 was cos it looked so nice in the ad!! And to sit alongside my Heybrook, not to replace it, so there's no rush to get of rid of soon, unless of course that tonearm is knackered, then it might be going straight back to the seller, got it on PFM where I've only had good experiences buying and selling.
Mike, may I ask what type of music you mostly listen to? The reason being that, if you're intending on running both T/Ts side-by side, you could use them for playing different types of music :)
I can say, based on some experience, that both the Heybrook and Technics will excel (and also do the opposite) with different genres of music, and that may be one of the issues you're experiencing, especially with a relatively stock 1210.
Marco.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 10:36
HI Marco, tend to listen mostly to 60s/70s , the good stuff, not the pap!! And then post punk, techno, so basically pop/rock/soul,jazz, rather than classical. Here's a link to a video of the Jelco arm, can anyone please tell me whether it looks knackered or not?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwS789iAc-g&feature=share
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 10:57
HI Marco, tend to listen mostly to 60s/70s , the good stuff, not the pap!! And then post punk, techno, so basically pop/rock/soul,jazz, rather than classical. Here's a link to a video of the Jelco arm, can anyone please tell me whether it looks knackered or not?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwS789iAc-g&feature=share
That looks scary ! I never venture in the Jelco tonearm system, did somme G*ggle search and couldn't find much to provide with schemes or dismantling instructions to understand it's build-up. I've found this though that says something is loose with the original base !? It's an advertise but that says something...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVCn0Gydoro
Have you try to adjust the VTA and then tighten the allen screw/bolt at the base BTW ?
HI Marco, tend to listen mostly to 60s/70s , the good stuff, not the pap!! And then post punk, techno, so basically pop/rock/soul,jazz, rather than classical. Here's a link to a video of the Jelco arm, can anyone please tell me whether it looks knackered or not?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwS789iAc-g&feature=share
Is that a video of your own arm Mike? If so then that is most likely to be the cause of your dissatisfaction. Clearly the arm is not secure in the arm base - the socket screw needs to be tightened. Try that and let us know how you get on and if your TT/arm sounds better.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 11:12
Hi Barry, yes that's my own arm, which one is the socket screw??
I think it is the one you can see in the base at the start of the video.
Well that is where it should be, but looking again at the videeo the arm locking grub-screw looks to be missing.
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 11:28
18186
Hi Barry, yes that's my own arm, which one is the socket screw??
This one but if missing...
18187
Ammonite Audio
12-10-2016, 11:30
It does look as though the lower arm supporting plate has become loose from the upper yoke structure. Remove the arm and look at the underside, and you'll see a total of six little securing screws. Tighten these and the problem should be resolved. I have to say that these do not normally come loose, so this is a bit perplexing.
That collar is one of my first designs - the present one is much better at supporting the arm pillar, and also easier to adjust correctly for optimum performance. I do offer an AoS discount off the normal price of £47, so please ask if you would like a new collar.
Edit: the grub screw in the early collars was quite short, so that's why it cannot be seen. The later collars are much better in this respect.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 11:38
Thankyou, I just tried it, loosened and tightened again, made no difference.
walpurgis
12-10-2016, 11:38
There's a lot of slack in that collar. Is it the right one for this arm? Most collars tend to be a snug fit around the stem and don't allow that much rocking even with the grub screws loose.
walpurgis
12-10-2016, 11:41
I guess you could try sleeving it by wrapping an aluminium strip cut from a drinks can around the stem. That might help.
The deck is going to sound crap unless the arm is firmly secured.
dave2010
12-10-2016, 11:46
No way, from the video, that the mounting is good. There's far too much slack. Something's wrong.
Could try to get it back into spec, or I suppose could improvise (cheapskate wise) with some form of padding material - though might not improve things.
Blue Tack perhaps?
I think it needs sorting before you can say for sure that the TT and arm is no good. If it was a very cheap purchase you may not want to spend more, but I don't think these things are particularly cheap,
so surely got to be worth fixing, even if you simply sell it on. I don't think I'd recommend drinks can solutions, though the Blue Tack suggestion may be no better.
walpurgis
12-10-2016, 11:52
I don't think I'd recommend drinks can solutions.
Why not? Have you tried this? It works. It's a regular dodge used by people fitting a Linn arm into a Lenco turntable for instance. It will certainly do no harm.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 11:56
I'm just trying to remove the arm now, how do I remove the cabling from the tonearm, its OA cable.
Why not? Have you tried this? It works. It's a regular dodge used by people fitting a Linn arm into a Lenco turntable for instance. It will certainly do no harm.
Presumably if the missing socket screw is fitted, there will be no need for a 'drinks can' shim. But the latter is certainly much, much better than using Blu Tak, which in my opinion would be pretty ineffective.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 12:05
Ammonite, I was hoping you chip in on this thread! Yes your bang on, the screws are a little bit loose, so just off to the shops to buy a teeny weeny Philips screwdriver, as it happens I was going to the DIY store to pick an impact driver, so great!
tlscapital
12-10-2016, 13:07
Hi Tim,
...In general (in my experience), B/Ds will tend to sound 'airier' and more detailed/spacious, slightly 'warmer' too, with a wider and more expansive soundstage (although the effect of that, in terms of what a D/D does, is very plinth dependent), whereas D/Ds will generally sound 'punchier' and more rhythmically adroit, subsequently driving bass lines along with greater aplomb...
...is down to the greater overall accuracy of their motor units, which show up the (in comparison) often coloured nature of their B/D counterparts, particularly in the bass, where BDs tend to sound 'looser' (often due to W&F issues) - and that somewhat 'phat bass' and overall warmer presentation can suit certain systems better (not to mention also some genres of music), including pleasing the ears of their listeners, even though the effect may not be entirely accurate...
Marco.
That is why I'm contemplating the acquisition of a PSU & tachometer combo in order to "tighten" my basses up and correct the real speed (often 44rpm) through an accurate(r) continuous(er) speed of the motor. I have no experience with such a device. Do you ?
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 13:27
It does look as though the lower arm supporting plate has become loose from the upper yoke structure. Remove the arm and look at the underside, and you'll see a total of six little securing screws. Tighten these and the problem should be resolved. I have to say that these do not normally come loose, so this is a bit perplexing.
That collar is one of my first designs - the present one is much better at supporting the arm pillar, and also easier to adjust correctly for optimum performance. I do offer an AoS discount off the normal price of £47, so please ask if you would like a new collar.
Edit: the grub screw in the early collars was quite short, so that's why it cannot be seen. The later collars are much better in this respect.
Yep, that's it, all done now, thankyou! These forums are great eh? In the past it would have been, put TT in van, take to Hi Fi shop, wait a day, return to Hi Fi shop, bung em a few quid, put TT in van, bring home!! Cheers..
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 15:24
How does it sound now?
Well I've played a few tracks from a few different genres, and it knocks out rhythms like few others I've heard, timing is amazing. Spun a few techno records and it was amazing. Now, lets try the Beatles!! Obli di, bass is great, defined and taut, trebles are a bit harsh, definitely foot tapping, my amps are Naim 72/140/Teddycap, if you know Naim, then you know the Hicap/Teddycap keeps the bass taut as well. The bass isn't blurting out like it was earlier, thinking about it that looseness in the tonearm housing must have been causing all sorts of problems! Overall its more chromatic than the Heybrook, and a bit harsh may'be on treble, but tbh, I'm not that experienced with TT's, usually I get the guy at my local Studio T to fit carts etc! So that could be worth a look. Overall much happier than yesterday! And looking forward to having this along side my Heybrook, and using it when I wanna knock out some serious rhythms, next upgrade? It came with the acromat.
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 15:55
The White album stayed on for 2 sides, loving it, sounds really clear. Bass is is so well controlled, bring it on. Again, this is with the Ortofon Rondo Red cart, the other one I tried was the Denon DL 110, what carts are preferable with 1200/1210s?
walpurgis
12-10-2016, 16:20
correct the real speed (often 44rpm)
44rpm? :scratch:
dave2010
12-10-2016, 17:07
The White album stayed on for 2 sides, loving it, sounds really clear. Bass is is so well controlled, bring it on. Again, this is with the Ortofon Rondo Red cart, the other one I tried was the Denon DL 110, what carts are preferable with 1200/1210s?Glad you made progress, and things are now a lot better, even if others round here didn't like my Blue Tack idea. Possibly there may be minor tweaks others can help you with, but it sounds as though the major problem has now been overcome, and if you still decide you don't like it enough, you have something more sellable now.
Glad to hear you got it sorted Mike.
(note the lack of arm or pitch control)
Just to clarify, the original SL-120 / SL-1200 does have pitch control - they are the two rotary pots at the front (one for each speed).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Technics_SL-120.JPG
Mikeandvan
12-10-2016, 21:42
I suppose power supply is next upgrade? Does it have to be the expensive Timestep one? I guess not, OL do one too, any others? I don't mind spending a bit on an off board power supply as it is something I will be doing to the Heybrook aswell.
walpurgis
12-10-2016, 22:47
I don't get this thing with changing power supplies for turntables. I mean, does it go round? Is the speed stable? Does it produce enough torque? If it complies, what's the need for an expensive power supply change of possibly dubious worth?
I don't get this thing with changing power supplies for turntables. I mean, does it go round? Is the speed stable? Does it produce enough torque? If it complies, what's the need for an expensive power supply change of possibly dubious worth?
Now where's the fun in that? :lol: Sounds like you're just like me - buy a deck you like, plonk it on the ground (or on a shelf) and just use it. I expect the designers to have done a good job without the need for me to improve matters.
Only when a deck is no longer made or supported by the manufacturer, do I show any interest in third party replacement parts; which may be better than the original.
Jeff Wood
12-10-2016, 23:25
you can just remove the transformer and put in a separate box away from the deck, that's a common mod.
personally I bought a mcru power supply which Im happy with and cost £285. really easy to install.
tlscapital
13-10-2016, 08:36
correct the real speed (often 44rpm)
44rpm?
I don't get this thing with changing power supplies for turntables. I mean, does it go round? Is the speed stable? Does it produce enough torque? If it complies, what's the need for an expensive power supply change of possibly dubious worth?
Your answer lies in your second question. Of course it goes round but doesn't really comply yet. Plus if you get a sound that is more and more detailed and clear, as I do after all my DIY tweaks, you tend to hear all the little default in the play. Accuracy in speed then becomes the next step and be able to pitch control an improvement. I agree, it's the expensive bit I didn't "budget plan". But the one, now that I'm there, after all the troubles and headaches, I believe will grace all of that work, money and decades of records crate digging. I hope...
Jeff Wood
13-10-2016, 09:51
I've done all the mods on my sl1210 now, apart from the bearing, and I'd say what's made the biggest improvement, even more than the stylus change is my Nessie record cleaning machine !
so my advice to anyone thinking of modding a Technics, get a decent RCM first...
Audio Al
13-10-2016, 10:31
I don't get this thing with changing power supplies for turntables. I mean, does it go round? Is the speed stable? Does it produce enough torque? If it complies, what's the need for an expensive power supply change of possibly dubious worth?
Hi Geoff
I had big problems with the internal power supply on my 1210 / AT120e cart , I could lift the arm from the rest and as I moved it towards the power supply a hum would start and get louder the nearer it got , Purchased a external supply , No more hum
walpurgis
13-10-2016, 11:05
That's strange Al. I've owned Techies and not had hum issues, even using Deccas and Grados, which can be sensitive to hum.
The Technics power supply transformer has a slight hum that can be heard. Just mute the volume when playing a record without lifting the tonearm. Once the record stops spinning, turn the volume up gradually and you should be able to hear the transformer hum. With an outboard PS you won't hear this hum. With music playing, the absence of this manifests itself with a quieter background and more low level detail previously obscured by the stock onboard mounted PS. I did the DIY external PS mod on my deck and noticed a benefit from it. From what I've gathered, an aftermarket PS has better power supply and regulation in addition to getting rid of the hum. For now I'll keep using my DIY solution as long as I don't get the "bug" by hearing a better one :lol:
Mikeandvan
24-10-2016, 13:35
The Technics power supply transformer has a slight hum that can be heard. Just mute the volume when playing a record without lifting the tonearm. Once the record stops spinning, turn the volume up gradually and you should be able to hear the transformer hum. With an outboard PS you won't hear this hum. With music playing, the absence of this manifests itself with a quieter background and more low level detail previously obscured by the stock onboard mounted PS. I did the DIY external PS mod on my deck and noticed a benefit from it. From what I've gathered, an aftermarket PS has better power supply and regulation in addition to getting rid of the hum. For now I'll keep using my DIY solution as long as I don't get the "bug" by hearing a better one :lol:
Just did this, couldn't hear a thing.
There's no magic or questionable 'snake oil' to turntable power supplies - the improvements brought to speed stability and motor vibration are easily heard and measured. In the case of the Technics things are a bit less clear cut as the turntable already contains a power supply and feedback circuit. Moving the transformer outboard should be worth it though.
Just did this, couldn't hear a thing.
Interesting :scratch: You turned the volume up with the needle resting on a stationary record and didn't hear anything? I wasn't there so I'll accept your word.
Mikeandvan
25-10-2016, 23:03
Interesting :scratch: You turned the volume up with the needle resting on a stationary record and didn't hear anything? I wasn't there so I'll accept your word.
Yessir, not a thing.
Yessir, not a thing.
More money for other mods :eyebrows:
Packgrog
26-10-2016, 13:38
FWIW, I've been doing an experiment trying to get the Technics to sound as good as my Michell TecnoDec. Several hundred dollars into the experiment, and money has dried up, while also not yet succeeding. Audio samples can be found here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/that-technics-sound.736730/page-2#post-9991512
FWIW, I've been doing an experiment trying to get the Technics to sound as good as my Michell TecnoDec. Several hundred dollars into the experiment, and money has dried up, while also not yet succeeding. Audio samples can be found here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/that-technics-sound.736730/page-2#post-9991512
An SL1200 will never sound like a TecnoDec no matter what you do to it. Whether it sounds 'as good' or not is down to individual taste and so is entirely subjective.
FWIW, I've been doing an experiment trying to get the Technics to sound as good as my Michell TecnoDec. Several hundred dollars into the experiment, and money has dried up, while also not yet succeeding. Audio samples can be found here: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/that-technics-sound.736730/page-2#post-9991512
Get the power transformer into an external box if you haven't already & do the KAB regulator mod at the same time for convience and then do a platter upgrade. If you plan to keep the stock platter, consider permanently bonding an SDS Isoplatmat to reduce resonance. The stock platter rings like a bell and that's why your needledrops have all that glare. Eliminating vibration from the deck is first priority and you can worry about more subtle upgrades later. You should be able to easily close the gap between the TecnoDec and the SL-1200 before ever doing a bearing upgrade.
Packgrog
26-10-2016, 19:00
Get the power transformer into an external box if you haven't already & do the KAB regulator mod at the same time for convience and then do a platter upgrade. If you plan to keep the stock platter, consider permanently bonding an SDS Isoplatmat to reduce resonance. The stock platter rings like a bell and that's why your needledrops have all that glare. Eliminating vibration from the deck is first priority and you can worry about more subtle upgrades later. You should be able to easily close the gap between the TecnoDec and the SL-1200 before ever doing a bearing upgrade.
That may be one of the most helpful responses I've gotten from a number of sites on this subject, thank you. Is it your assertion that the KAB regulator mod alone would provide noticeable improvement? Would externalizing the transformer be necessary if eventually upgrading to the KAB PS1200GX? Will these kind of power mods make a more noticeable improvement than a bearing upgrade?
Platter upgrade is a no-go in the foreseeable future. That's just too damned much money. I had considered KABUSA's Isoplatmat clone (the KAB Poly-Metal Mat) and a 3mm Achromat before just opting for the Achromat 1200 for less money. The Poly-Metal and a Vibrostop could be interesting, though I fear that combo would be too tall to use with a clamp (my Michell clamp BARELY works with the Achromat 1200). I'm still bummed that the Applied Fidelity products are no longer available (RIP, Jim), though I never did find a useful review of his Delrin mats. :/
Another mat-related option that I've considered is putting thin grungebuster dots between the platter and Achromat, though again, I'd need to switch to a weight instead of the Michell clamp (not enough spindle for the clamp to grab), and I've yet to encounter any weight or clamp that worked as well as the Michell. Any thoughts there?
I'll look into what it takes to externalize the transformer. I'm not super thrilled with the idea of destructive mods, but the price is certainly more accessible. Thanks again for the feedback.
You don't want to the stock transformer sitting in the deck vibrating. So you either need to get it out of the deck or use an external power supply that bypasses it. If you're not into destructive mods there are linear power supplies from China on ebay that cost around $100 and have worked for other members. Installing the KAB regulator mod at the same time just makes sense since you'll be rewiring everything anyway.
The Isoplatmat does a really great job of deadening the stock platter. I have a spare Isoplatmat that is the wrong diameter for the SL-1200 if you want to play with one. I'm not sure how you would cut it down the right size to permanently attach it, but if you want I'll give it you if you pay for it's cost to ship. I bought it a decade ago before SDS made one that specifically fit the SL-1200.
Packgrog
26-10-2016, 20:25
I'd certainly be curious to give it a try, though I'd need to figure out a thin mat to use on top of the Isoplat mat. Maybe the piece of leather that I've been using as a platter cover. That being said, Kevin from KAB actually recommends the larger diameter Isoplat. I believe his clone product also sits on top of the raised lip of the platter (see his Isoplat comments here: http://kabusa.com/whats.htm). But yes, I'd be keen to give it a try, and would of course share audio samples.
Here's an option for the PSU - http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?26620-SL-1200-DC-Power-Supply-DIY
It really makes a significant difference.
Member Andrei started this thread (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?29662-DIY-Platter) a while ago and it works really great. It really takes the "ring" out of the stock platter and IMHO it is one of the biggest bang-for-the-buck mods out there.
Packgrog
28-10-2016, 13:31
I have indeed seen and considered that mod. What concerns me is that it's irreversible. If I didn't like it, I couldn't undo it. I'd bought a used Gingko Cloud a while back that had been modded with strips of Dynamat on the underside, and there was no way for me to remove it. Dynamat can indeed work wonders when used correctly (the older DIY Lawton mod for my Denon AH-D2000 headphones used Dynamat and it works extremely well, though they've since switched to a different material), but I do wonder if a different material might be even better in this application. I'm wary of the deadening that softer materials would impart, as evidenced by the murky, mushy sound I got when trying to use a thin grungebuster gasket between the plinth and armboard. That's where the SDS Isoplat or KAB Poly-Metal might be a better choice, though it is indeed unfortunate that there's no under-platter version that would allow use of taller mats without needing an aftermarket bearing with a taller spindle.
Anyway, assuming anyone is interested, I'll gladly share audio results of any further experiments.
The connection between the plinth and armboard should be rigid and solid. Ideally, the only thing moving in the whole assembly would be the stylus. That's why you got the results you got. The idea of a damped platter is to minimize any vibrations from traveling through the air and the deck itself to the stylus in the groove. Look at it this way. Folks who use aftermarket platters (which I'm sure offer more damping that Dynamat), really seem to like them.
guardofmagog
29-10-2016, 13:32
I suppose power supply is next upgrade? Does it have to be the expensive Timestep one? I guess not, OL do one too, any others? I don't mind spending a bit on an off board power supply as it is something I will be doing to the Heybrook aswell.
Hi Mike,
If you do not want to invest a lot of money on PSU then go for the KAB one. Along with the DC regulator and strobe disabler it is a great unit and easy to install. When installing it my TT I was amaze how much the sound improves. Since it is not required to remove the internal PSU, You can switch from the original one to KAB for A/B comparison. It is amazing the difference it makes. Maybe some more expensive PSU makes a better job but the price, KAB is surely one of the best BANG for the buck.
Once the PSU installed, you can decide if you want to improve it more. Here are some other great mods.
- Better feet, many of us are using Isonoes, also sold by KAB.
- New bearing like Mike New. Expensive but worth every penny and more.
- You need to change the mat. I don't have any recommendation for the original platter since I changed the mine for a Mike New one.
Have fun,
Eric
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