PDA

View Full Version : Ashley & JC's assorted musings



Ashley James
21-04-2008, 13:10
I don't think any of us have any idea how well or how badly hi fi retailers are doing at the moment so we can only guess, using the bits of gossip we hear as a guide. I understand that many are changing direction and continue to do well as a result, others are making it last till they retire and so on.

All we can say with any certainty is that future of hi fi (and I mean proper high quality sound reproducing equipment, not basic commercial) revolves around its integration with photography, Movies, TV and Music via a properly designed home computer. At the moment TV and computers are beginning to converge and hi fi, because of it's silly attitude is being marginalised and may soon fall behind. Many have already found that some iPods with good headphones are better. (141 million now sold).

At the moment Computer Shops, Hi fi Shops and TV shops don't overlap, however online retailing is growing exponentially. Hi Fi manufacturers seem to see some future in hi end servers, which makes no sense to me as Hifidelio did really well for a time and then went bust as people realised, they'd be better off with a computer.

Many feel that there is a move away from separates and upgrades, that young people see playing CD's, never mind vinyl as dotty and Hi fi shops are selling unfashionable upgrade type products to an ageing and decreasing minority, while a surprising number of all ages have discovered that even the digital output from a PS3 is as good as any hi end transport!

Mr C's market and the products discussed on this message board are statistically insignificant by comparison, where ADM9's offer not only improved sound quality at reduced cost but have almost certainly anticipated the future.

Ash

Colinx
21-04-2008, 13:56
So what are those of us that have no interest in photography, TV and movies going to do with these all in one apple TV things then?

I had a house full of ''young people'' over the weekend, as in my son's arrived with assorted mates, girlfriends etc. The most common comment was how nice to have a living room without a TV, and how good even my modest vinyl set up sounds. Oddly enough, out of the 8 of them, only one had an I-Pod, and it seems that is because he is an ''apple fanboy', the others either, to quote them, avoiding them like the plague, or chose something other than apple product. To paraphrase my elder son's comment, apple fans are worse than Naim sheep.

The products discussed on this message board my well be statistically insignificant, as I assume are the sales of volvo rag top cars, real beer's etc, but they continue to sell, keep people employed making them, and presumably make a profit for the makers.

Mass market never has, and never will, mean best, well unless you believe the hype of the marketers that want you to believe them

Marco
21-04-2008, 14:13
Good post, Colin.

I'll add my tuppenceworth later.

Apple TVs? They'll never replace my hi-fi system (oh how even the very notion is ridiculous:eyebrows:) or likely even make my living room TV/DVD player set-up!

Marco.

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 14:27
Colin the point is that what you condescendingly call mass market is actually just as good for sound quality and a hell of a lot better to use.

You're using a computer to discuss this so would presumably be even happier with a much better, easier to use and more versatile one that took up less space.

And if you read my piece more carefully you'll see that I qualified exactly the area I was referring to; High quality sound reproducing equipment, NOT basic commercial is what I said and meant. The thread is in relation to hi fi Shops.

Ashley

PS. Marco is talking through his hat, it isn't a good post and I didn't mention Apple TV and he's never used one so shouldn't be commenting on it till he knows what it can do and how well it works.

Marco
21-04-2008, 14:40
Ashley,

It is indeed a very good post. Because Colin has summed up how many people, certainly on here, feel.

What you need to grasp is that some people use computers RELUCTANTLY as an essential tool for communication in modern life, or at work, for obvious reasons. They're not in love with them like you are. Therefore the LAST thing they want is to use a bloody computer, too, as their main source of music in their hi-fi systems!

The above has got nothing whatsoever to do with sonic performance or convenience - it's about something much more fundamentally 'human' than that - something which, with respect, I doubt people of your mentality will ever grasp.

Marco.

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 14:42
The thread is in relation to hi fi Shops.

Ashley



So you actually acknowledge what the thread is about, wonders will never cease. So we can ignore all your claptrap about AVI and ADM9 etc as completely irrelevent, thank goodness for that.

You and JC are basically just walking marketing disease at its worst. But admin wants to pad the forum with any crap he can get so you get away with it!

Anyway back on subject - the original post refered to retailers not hi-fi retailers - it is nothing to do with *your* products that hi-fi retailers are failing, but I am sure you really cannot see past your ego to anything sensible. IT IS ALL RETAILERS (apart from Tesco) and the cause is a recession and changing public buying habits which I am sure will effect AVI as well.

Marco
21-04-2008, 15:07
You and JC are basically just walking marketing disease at its worst. But admin wants to pad the forum with any crap he can get so you get away with it!


Erm, Richard, that's not the case at all. We happen to believe that all three of you have some valuable experience and expertise to offer members - if people can see through the various agendas...

Everyone here has an 'asset to liability ratio'. At the moment it's favourable, as far as you three are concerned, but that can quickly change! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 15:09
So what are those of us that have no interest in photography, TV and movies going to do with these all in one apple TV things then?

I had a house full of ''young people'' over the weekend, as in my son's arrived with assorted mates, girlfriends etc. The most common comment was how nice to have a living room without a TV, and how good even my modest vinyl set up sounds. Oddly enough, out of the 8 of them, only one had an I-Pod, and it seems that is because he is an ''apple fanboy', the others either, to quote them, avoiding them like the plague, or chose something other than apple product. To paraphrase my elder son's comment, apple fans are worse than Naim sheep.

The products discussed on this message board my well be statistically insignificant, as I assume are the sales of volvo rag top cars, real beer's etc, but they continue to sell, keep people employed making them, and presumably make a profit for the makers.

Mass market never has, and never will, mean best, well unless you believe the hype of the marketers that want you to believe them

well said that man!:);)

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 15:09
Ashley,

It is indeed a very good post. Because Colin has summed up how many people, certainly on here, feel.

What you need to grasp is that some people use computers RELUCTANTLY as an essential tool for communication in modern life, or at work, for obvious reasons. They're not in love with them like you are. Therefore the LAST thing they want is to use a bloody computer, too, as their main source of music in their hi-fi systems!

The above has got nothing whatsoever to do with sonic performance or convenience - it's about something much more fundamentally 'human' than that - something which, with respect, I doubt people of your mentality will ever grasp.
Marco.

I must say that I hated PC's but Mac's changed all that. I think the fundamental difference between us is that I love music not equipment or playing with equipment. Computers make more music more accessible more easily and take up less space.

Ash

PS, And I'll never understand how anyone could waste time with vinyl!

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 15:11
Richard, I'm not sure whether I can welcome you back but I'll see how it goes, since you have mentioned me specifically. Personally I'm inclined to think that you have some challenges to meet as far as interaction with other people is concerned and from what I've seen I would not like to be left alone with you. Maybe you feel able to comment on this if you think you should.

As for calling me a "walking marketing disease at its worst" I can assure you that my involvement with AVI is simply that of an informed user.

It's true that Marco begged Ashley and myself to return from our boycott, ;) but it has gone reasonably well since. Lets all try and do our best for AoS.


the cause is a recession and changing public buying habits which I am sure will effect AVI as well.

On the contrary, I get mail from many sources asking me for advice on digital music library's for hifi use, it is the only part of hifi which is spreading like wildfire, and Ashley tells me that anyone who sees it done properly is immediately enthusiastic.

With respect Richard, I think your products are as weird as you are and not for me, but If I were you, I think I would try and stay in business exactly as you are doing. I am sure you have your followers. :)

Regards JC.

Colinx
21-04-2008, 15:13
Colin the point is that what you condescendingly call mass market is actually just as good for sound quality and a hell of a lot better to use.

You're using a computer to discuss this so would presumably be even happier with a much better, easier to use and more versatile one that took up less space.

And if you read my piece more carefully you'll see that I qualified exactly the area I was referring to; High quality sound reproducing equipment, NOT basic commercial is what I said and meant. The thread is in relation to hi fi Shops.

Ashley

PS. Marco is talking through his hat, it isn't a good post and I didn't mention Apple TV and he's never used one so shouldn't be commenting on it till he knows what it can do and how well it works.

Not in the least, my main computer is mainly used to connect to a HP/UX server, and to prepare quotations, plan production, expedite orders, typical work type stuff, It runs on windows XP, and has not shown a problem in 4 years usage. The PC I use on internet forums/e-mail etc is in my study/home office alongside the main PC, yet another room without a TV, yes I have seen a apple TV thing in action alongside a mac mini, (not real hands on, a demo at a local (ish) apple shop, it was either spend a few minutes with that or search yet another shoe shop with my wife, I picked what I mistakenly assumed would be the lesser of two evils. I personally thought it was a superb idea, you can record all the TV output you avoided the first time round, so that you could avoid it again and again. Oh and yes you can watch films, and stuff like that. We actually have cinema's for that, the seats may not be as comfy as the one's at home, but I find the screen a bit better.

I also fail to understand why you seem to think that a computer is better to use than a CD player, my wife, who is reasonably intelligent, despite marrying me, loves music, she enjoys choosing which slab of outdated vinyl, or CD to drop into the respective player and enjoy, she does however, in common with a large number of other people HATE computers. So to follow your lead I would effectively block her enjoyment of music.

I am willing to accept that what you are saying (promoting??) has merit, and do use computer stored audio in the working area of the house, you unfortunately seem to be hell bent on decrying anyone who has a differing point of view, including your old customers. It must be very pleasing to know that the manufacturer of your AVI CD players, pre and power amps and passive speakers thinks you are an idiot for buying them, and you should buy the new wunderkind product and laptop from some orchard.

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 15:15
So you actually acknowledge what the thread is about, wonders will never cease. So we can ignore all your claptrap about AVI and ADM9 etc as completely irrelevent, thank goodness for that.

You and JC are basically just walking marketing disease at its worst. But admin wants to pad the forum with any crap he can get so you get away with it!

Anyway back on subject - the original post refered to retailers not hi-fi retailers - it is nothing to do with *your* products that hi-fi retailers are failing, but I am sure you really cannot see past your ego to anything sensible. IT IS ALL RETAILERS (apart from Tesco) and the cause is a recession and changing public buying habits which I am sure will effect AVI as well.

welcome back,
where you been???:);):

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 15:17
Richard, I'm not sure whether I can welcome you back but I'll see how it goes, since you have mentioned me specifically. Personally I'm inclined to think that you have some challenges to meet as far as interaction with other people is concerned and from what I've seen I would not like to be left alone with you. Maybe you feel able to comment on this if you think you should.

As for calling me a "walking marketing disease at its worst" I can assure you that my involvement with AVI is simply that of an informed user.

It's true that Marco begged Ashley and myself to return from our boycott, ;) but it has gone reasonably well since. Lets all try and do our best for AoS.



On the contrary, I get mail from many sources asking me for advice on digital music library's for hifi use, it is the only part of hifi which is spreading like wildfire, and Ashley tells me that anyone who sees it done properly is immediately enthusiastic.

With respect Richard, I think your products are as weird as you are and not for me, but If I were you, I think I would try and stay in business exactly as you are doing. I am sure you have your followers. :)

Regards JC.

Just more marketing crap, and if you do it without being paid then more fool you.

Marco
21-04-2008, 15:19
I think the fundamental difference between us is that I love music not equipment or playing with equipment.


So are you saying that I don't like music or that somehow you like it more than me? If so, we're liable to fall out on a major scale because that's bullshit and you couldn't be further from the truth!!!

I suggest you explain yourself, and quickly.

For many people, Ashley, including myself, hi-fi is also a hobby as well as something to enjoy our music on. Just as you like to play around with old cars, so do others and myself like to play around with old hi-fi. Some others will also enjoy playing around with new hi-fi, too. It's all part of the fun.

Not everyone is into 'fit and forget' hi-fi solutions, particularly when the one on offer isn't likely to give superior performance.

I "bother" with vinyl because I love collecting records, and despite all this wonderful technology it's still the music carrier with the highest resolution. I'd still be using reel-to-reel tape decks, too, if they were practical!

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 15:25
I also fail to understand why you seem to think that a computer is better to use than a CD player, my wife, who is reasonably intelligent, despite marrying me, loves music, she enjoys choosing which slab of outdated vinyl, or CD to drop into the respective player and enjoy, she does however, in common with a large number of other people HATE computers. So to follow your lead I would effectively block her enjoyment of music.

I am willing to accept that what you are saying (promoting??) has merit, and do use computer stored audio in the working area of the house, you unfortunately seem to be hell bent on decrying anyone who has a differing point of view, including your old customers. It must be very pleasing to know that the manufacturer of your AVI CD players, pre and power amps and passive speakers thinks you are an idiot for buying them, and you should buy the new wunderkind product and laptop from some orchard.

With the natural exception of any knowledge of your wife, this is completely contradictory to my experiences and observations.

I suspect you are a stubborn old codger who doesn't know how to do it properly and refuses to learn new concepts.

I wonder, secretly if your wife doesn't actually agree with me ? :) ;)

Marco
21-04-2008, 15:27
It's true that Marco begged Ashley and myself to return from our boycott, ;)


Just to put that assertion into perspective: there's as much truth in it as you asking Ashley for a blow-job.

;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 15:29
Erm, Richard, that's not the case at all. We happen to believe that all three of you have some valuable experience and expertise to offer members - if people can plough through the various agendas...

Everyone here has an 'asset to liability ratio'. At the moment it's favourable, as far as you three are concerned, but that can quickly change! ;)

Marco.

That is out of order to lump me in with those two walking diseases. Show me one post where I have promoted NVA on this forum, it is even very unusual for the initials to be mentioned in any context in one of my posts. This is oppossed to AVI / ADM9 - repeat ad infinitum - in any post, any subject, any poster. If you really are so desperate to get volume then make it a tit and hi-fi forum, it couldn't get any more distorted.

You mention I have an agenda, well then please tell me what it is. As far as I know my only motivation is to sing the problems with this industry as loud as I can. It just happens you have one of the biggest industry problems encapsulated in these two peculiarities that you tolerate, so I sing!

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 15:33
Just to put that assertion into perspective: there's as much truth in it as you asking Ashley for a blow-job.

;)

Marco.


Now that would explain a lot!

Marco
21-04-2008, 15:33
I suspect you are a stubborn old codger who doesn't know how to do it properly and refuses to learn new concepts.


Hey, you're in no position to talk about old codgers! :lol:

And please don't make derogatory assumptions about people you don't know.

Marco.

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 15:38
welcome back,
where you been???:);):

Sulking from being called a liar by some twat!

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 15:38
I'll add my tuppenceworth later.

You've had ten bob's worth already ! :eyebrows: Why don't you earn some of it and tell Richard to moderate his name calling ? :mental:


those two walking diseases


Seems a clear breach of AUP to me :(

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 15:45
Hey, you're in no position to talk about old codgers! :lol:

And please don't make derogatory assumptions about people you don't know.

Marco.

Take your own advice ;) P-K-Blk :)


you asking Ashley for a blow-job

Some hopes ! :steam:

Anyway Ashley's far to young for me :) He can't even take his teeth out yet :smoking:

:ner::cool:

Colinx
21-04-2008, 16:00
With the natural exception of any knowledge of your wife, this is completely contradictory to my experiences and observations.

I suspect you are a stubborn old codger who doesn't know how to do it properly and refuses to learn new concepts.

I wonder, secretly if your wife doesn't actually agree with me ? :) ;)

Then I suggest that you
A) Get out a bit more and mix with people that live in the real world

B) You can suspect all you want, but I am advised i do know how to do it,
well at least well enough not to need to involve ashley, with or without
teeth.

C) I accept and work with new concepts on a regular basis
Strangely, I also seem to be fairly able at sorting out the new concepts
that work, from the one's that don't. I also seem to be able to avoid
bandwagons.

D) Given your internet persona, as compared to my wife I very much doubt
if she would discuss anything you, let alone agree on anything.

Marco
21-04-2008, 16:10
That is out of order to lump me in with those two walking diseases. Show me one post where I have promoted NVA on this forum, it is even very unusual for the initials to be mentioned in any context in one of my posts. This is oppossed to AVI / ADM9 - repeat ad infinitum - in any post, any subject, any poster. If you really are so desperate to get volume then make it a tit and hi-fi forum, it couldn't get any more distorted.

You mention I have an agenda, well then please tell me what it is. As far as I know my only motivation is to sing the problems with this industry as loud as I can. It just happens you have one of the biggest industry problems encapsulated in these two peculiarities that you tolerate, so I sing!


Richard, first of all, please do not refer to anyone as "walking diseases", despite how much you dislike them. You're more than intelligent enough to put your point across without insults. I'm asking you nicely, so please, let's see no more of that.

Secondly, you've misunderstood me. I totally agree - you haven't blatantly promoted NVA, and I respect you for that. When I mentioned "agendas" in relation to your contributions, it was to do with your unfailing obsession with 'dissing' dealers. One could almost conclude that some big bad hairy-arsed dealer 'interfered' with you in a dark stockroom somewhere in the dim and distant past when you were a Saturday lad.

It's not an image I, and I suspect others, find pleasant to contemplate so please don't fuel this disturbing image any further, especially at tea time! ;)

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 16:21
Then I suggest that you
A) Get out a bit more and mix with people that live in the real world

B) You can suspect all you want, but I am advised i do know how to do it,
well at least well enough not to need to involve ashley, with or without
teeth.

C) I accept and work with new concepts on a regular basis
Strangely, I also seem to be fairly able at sorting out the new concepts
that work, from the one's that don't. I also seem to be able to avoid
bandwagons.

D) Given your internet persona, as compared to my wife I very much doubt
if she would discuss anything you, let alone agree on anything.

I'll accept your remarks Colin, I am sure you and your wife are a charming couple, :) I hope we have the pleasure of meeting one day.

Regards JC.

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 16:27
Richard, first of all, please do not refer to anyone as "walking diseases", despite how much you dislike them. You're more than intelligent enough to put your point across without insults. I'm asking you nicely, so please, let's see no more of that.

Secondly, you've misunderstood me. I totally agree - you haven't blatantly promoted AVI, and I respect you for that. When I mentioned "agendas" in relation to your contributions, it was to do with your unfailing obsession with 'dissing' dealers. One could almost conclude that some big bad hairy-arsed dealer 'interfered' with you in a dark stockroom somewhere in the dim and distant past when you were a Saturday lad.

It's not an image me, and I suspect others, find pleasant to contemplate so please don't fuel this disturbing image any further, especially at tea time! ;)

Marco.

Marketing hype is one of the worst diseases to pollute our industry. You have encapsulated within these two individuals such a bad case of this disease it is a joke, and the only ones who don't see it are them.

I do hope that was a typo and you put AVI instead of NVA, if so you can see how the slime of this oozes into your mind, you will be dreaming about AVI next, with Ashleys voice droning on in the background and JC dressed in high boots and whip - "you vill buy AVI (crack) you vill buy AVI (crack) or ve vill eliminate you"

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 16:31
Marco - I've had a go at dealers too and I'd like to qualify that. For a start we're very happy with the ones we have and we'd like more, however, and it's obvious from reading around the Forums, where quite a few are active, that some are rude, arrogant and and extremely conceited, which is exactly what customers say. I've even seen shop managers I've had complaints about mentioned by name! There is a problem, probably made worse by difficult trading conditions.

It's been dealers who've made the most trouble for me on Forums too, and in some instances, despite having asked me to contribute behind the scenes, moderators have allowed the situation to get out of hand. I suspect that dealers don't like manufacturers stealing their thunder from customers. They also have a vested interest in protecting the subjective aspects of assessing hi fi that are so against.

Ash

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 16:38
Richard, Halt !


if so you can see how the slime of this oozes into your mind, you will be dreaming about AVI next, with Ashleys voice droning on in the background and JC dressed in high boots and whip - "you vill buy AVI (crack) you vill buy AVI (crack) or ve vill eliminate you"

Are you suggesting I'm a NAZI ? :eyebrows::guns:

Marco
21-04-2008, 16:39
I do hope that was a typo and you put AVI instead of NVA, if so you can see how the slime of this oozes into your mind, you will be dreaming about AVI next, with Ashleys voice droning on in the background and JC dressed in high boots and whip - "you vill buy AVI (crack) you vill buy AVI (crack) or ve vill eliminate you"


Haha, bloody hell yes, it was a typo!! I will amend it immediately.

If everyone lays off the insults and makes their point intelligently then everything will be fine. The use of insults is a sign of limited vocabulary, and I don't think either of you suffer from that particular disease.

Marco.

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 16:45
Marketing hype is one of the worst diseases to pollute our industry. You have encapsulated within these two individuals such a bad case of this disease it is a joke, and the only ones who don't see it are them.

I do hope that was a typo and you put AVI instead of NVA, if so you can see how the slime of this oozes into your mind, you will be dreaming about AVI next, with Ashleys voice droning on in the background and JC dressed in high boots and whip - "you vill buy AVI (crack) you vill buy AVI (crack) or ve vill eliminate you"


Richard - You're very bitter and totally wrong!

Everything is marketed and everyone knows it, most switch off pretty quickly. However, if they see something interesting to them, they'll find out about it. Most on this Forum don't like what AVI does, some are interested and some tolerate our apposite views reluctantly. That's good!

Now if you were to say something relevant or interesting, you might do as well as I do or better, but all you do insult people.

You might like to know that the group most susceptible to advertising/marketing is C3 Women, they swallow it hook line and sinker! Which is why TV is the way it is and doesn't much appeal to AOS. Think tacky make-up, celeb mags, constipation and diarrhoea pills, bloated stomachs etc and it'll all make sense.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 16:50
Err, How old are these C3 women ? do they like moustaches ? :smoking:

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 16:52
Haha, bloody hell yes, it was a typo!! I will amend it immediately.

If everyone lays off the insults and makes their point intelligently then everything will be fine. The use of insults is a sign of limited vocabulary, and I don't think either of you suffer from that particular disease.

Marco.

You can't do anything with people like this but either laugh at them or insult them. How long have you been trying to keep them on subject? How long have you tried to actually put your point of view across to them? do they listen? you know the answers!! So sensible conversation that doesn't involve AVI or ADM9 is out of the question and not a sensible proposition and will not happen and yet you keep P*****G into the wind with them. My only conclusion is that you want controversy like a red top or that anything will do as long as it keeps up the post rate for the forum. So then when people play your game for you all of a sudden you become Mr Goodygoody and say smacky smacky, sorry it doesn't wear!

WikiBoy
21-04-2008, 16:54
Richard - You're very bitter and totally wrong!

Everything is marketed and everyone knows it, most switch off pretty quickly. However, if they see something interesting to them, they'll find out about it. Most on this Forum don't like what AVI does, some are interested and some tolerate our apposite views reluctantly. That's good!

Now if you were to say something relevant or interesting, you might do as well as I do or better, but all you do insult people.

You might like to know that the group most susceptible to advertising/marketing is C3 Women, they swallow it hook line and sinker! Which is why TV is the way it is and doesn't much appeal to AOS. Think tacky make-up, celeb mags, constipation and diarrhoea pills, bloated stomachs etc and it'll all make sense.

My god you populate a sick world!

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 16:58
My god you populate a sick world!

I know Ashley has enjoyed populating in the past (he had a bicycle), but not everybody in the world is his fault !;)

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 17:00
Richard may I suggest a Forum where you'd be much more at home www.lpsg.org

I'm worried that if you carry on as you are, you'll upset JC, he's very sensitive and Marco has already been unkind about his laptop today.

C3 women can have big Tits JC!

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 17:02
Oh is that what it means, I like "D" cups best :)

Colinx
21-04-2008, 17:05
I just followed Ashley's link, The fact he knows it's there answers a lot of questions

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 17:07
So did I,

I particularly liked this post,

15 Hours Ago #151 (permalink)
momy123
Member
Photos/Videos (2)

momy123 is

38 E here:)


is there a way to make breasts bigger without surgery?:)

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 17:08
Ahem, a bit off topic I'm ashamed of myself, where were we ? :)

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 17:12
I just followed Ashley's link, The fact he knows it's there answers a lot of questions

Have you been wondering about those sort of questions Colin, Do you think about it a lot ? ;)

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 17:14
I do hope this raises the tone of the conversation and gets us back on track.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 17:33
Ahh, It's a picture of the CNN tower near Toronto, It's magnificent, aren't they.
:artist::wow:

Marco
21-04-2008, 17:42
My only conclusion is that you want controversy like a red top or that anything will do as long as it keeps up the post rate for the forum. So then when people play your game for you all of a sudden you become Mr Goodygoody and say smacky smacky, sorry it doesn't wear!


Richard, I like controversial discussions, and controversial people, as do others, and undoubtedly it generates interest, but it has to be managed properly. As soon as the discussion goes beyond hi-fi and into an exchange of personal insults that's when you'll see me enter the fray with my admin hat on. Otherwise, I will contribute to the discussion and offer my views as an ordinary member.

It's an old saying with these discussions, and oft used, but as long as people 'play the ball and not the man' everything will be hunky-dory. If everyone puts that thought to the forefront of their mind before hitting the 'send' button we call all look forward to some heated, but politely-expressed, informative and interesting debates :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 17:55
Richard, I like controversial discussions, and controversial people, as do others, and undoubtedly it generates interest, but it has to be managed properly. As soon as the discussion goes beyond hi-fi and into an exchange of personal insults that's when you'll see me enter the frey with my admin hat on. Otherwise, I will contribute to the discussion and offer my views as an ordinary member.

It's an old saying with these discussions, and oft used, but as long as people 'play the ball and not the man' everything will be hunky-dory. If everyone puts that thought to the forefront of their mind before hitting the 'send' button we call all look forward to some heated, but politely-expressed, informative and interesting debates :)

Marco.
your all doomed i tells ya!!!
its good to see we havent lost our sense of humour though!;):lol::ner:

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 17:58
by the way,
those last pair of threads [thats what i am calling them anyway] has put me off my stride, remind me what we were originaly discussing???;):scratch:

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 18:06
Marco was talking about entering with his hat on his ordinary member :)

or was it entering an ordinary member with his hat on ;)

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 18:08
Marco was talking about entering with his hat on his ordinary member :)

or was it entering an ordinary member with his hat on ;)

marco!!!
how rude!!!:lol:

Marco
21-04-2008, 18:16
<Tee hee> :eyebrows:

Ashley was complaining about some unknown 'stains' on his chaise longue, apparently after JC became somewhat 'overexcited' with seeing him resplendent in a fetching ensemble of silk smoking jacket and pink moccasin slippers.

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 18:18
Sorry Marco I misquoted you, it wasn't an "ordinary member" it was some one called THE FREY, whoever that is ? What does their avatar look like ? is it a man or a woman ? Have they got their teeth in ? ;)


you'll see me enter the frey with my admin hat on

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 18:22
<Tee hee> :eyebrows:
resplendent in a fetching ensemble of silk smoking jacket and pink moccasin slippers.

Marco.

Lets stay on topic please, (dealers), thats Coops you're referring to, a well known dealer in LS's that look like lavatories.

Ashley always wears greasy overalls and carries tyres, like the bloke in the coke advert.

anthonyTD
21-04-2008, 18:33
Lets stay on topic please, (dealers), thats Coops you're referring to, a well known dealer in LS's that look like lavatories.

Ashley always wears greasy overalls and carries tyres, like the bloke in the coke advert.
sounds like my mother-inlaw,
well, the tyres bit anyway!!!;):lol:

Marco
21-04-2008, 18:35
Please - not as I'm tucking into my roast chicken!

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 18:43
My mother in law used to work for an airline, on "those" long-haul flights, know what I mean ;)

She used to kick-start Boeing 747's :)

Marco
21-04-2008, 18:47
I think JC's trying to tell us he's a member of the 'mile-high club'. I would have thought the noise of the propeller engines would have disturbed your concentration!

:lolsign:

Marco.

Marco
21-04-2008, 19:11
So are you saying that I don't like music or that somehow you like it more than me? If so, we're liable to fall out on a major scale because that's bullshit and you couldn't be further from the truth!!!

I suggest you explain yourself, and quickly.

For many people, Ashley, including myself, hi-fi is also a hobby as well as something to enjoy our music on. Just as you like to play around with old cars, so do others and myself like to play around with old hi-fi. Some others will also enjoy playing around with new hi-fi, too. It's all part of the fun.

Not everyone is into 'fit and forget' hi-fi solutions, particularly when the one on offer isn't likely to give superior performance.

I "bother" with vinyl because I love collecting records, and despite all this wonderful technology it's still the music carrier with the highest resolution. I'd still be using reel-to-reel tape decks, too, if they were practical!

Marco.


I'm still looking for a reply, Ashley, and this one won't go away.

Marco.

Ashley James
21-04-2008, 19:49
Marco, for me (and our customers I suspect) Hi fi is a tool, nothing more. I have no interest in hi fi equipment and I resent its intrusion, I certainly don't consider playing it fun.

However I love my music passionately and I like to listen to it immediately the mood takes me, maybe when I'm working or surfing, or even arguing with FF's (form fanatics). I do this by entering a bit of the title in iTunes and it immediately appears, then I select the location of the system I want to use and press play. It's done and I'm happy.

Any other approach is a total anathema to me and would spoil my enjoyment of music.

I carry everything on a Macbook Pro so can play my music anywhere that has a wi fi set up. Equally, people can come here with a memory stick, a laptop or a hard drive and we can exchange music and listen to or play via any computer on the system. And I can email MP3's of anything to anyone who's interested in a particular piece.

I also care passionately about sound quality and cannot tolerate the sound of most hi fi, it hurts my ears. The Bristol Show is a case in point, I wasn't joking when I said that the ceiling speakers in the Gents toilet are better than many of the exhibits.

Ash

Mike
21-04-2008, 19:53
Hmm....'toilet music'!... I - MUST - RESIST !!!!.... Aaaargh!... The temptation!

Marco
21-04-2008, 19:59
That's all fine, Ashley, but in future please don't make ignorant assumptions about my love of music in comparison to yours. I work from home and probably listen to music on average 6-7 hours per day, and often more that that!

However I like recorded music to sound 'real', not a processed facsimile of 'real', like I hear with things like iPods and MP3 players. We'll see what your Apple TV is like when I'm down, but no matter how good it is, IMO it's still a soulless and impersonal way of accessing one's favourite tunes.

Long live records and CDs!

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 21:02
Long live records and CDs!

and slide rules and gas mantles and typewriters and mangles and starched collars and stockings.

err .......... no ! not stockings ! ...... er yes, oh bugger, quick think of something else !

:baa: NO ! not them ! :doh:


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Marco
21-04-2008, 21:27
Yes, you're indeed fortunate to have experienced the 'swinging 60s' and therefore girls in micro-mini skirts and stockings. Yum yum!

I bet you were quite a lad in your day. Was Errol Flynn your hero?

Doncha just lurve this kind of thread drift!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco
21-04-2008, 21:34
Anyway, on an entirely different subject (shame!) I would like Ashley's opinion on this discussion about the TDA1541:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6993#post6993

:)

Marco.

jcbrum
21-04-2008, 22:02
Was Errol Flynn your hero?

Nah, Mike Hawthorn, Werner von Braun, Neils Bohr, and Graham Hill.

I can remember Racing Cars with engines in the front, and Julie Christie in A for Andromeda, and the first edition of "six five special" with Pete Murray and Jo Douglas, and Bill Haley live, and George VI being King of England, (and Scotland), and Food Rationing, and Utility furniture and clothes.

And some other things too, like Homosexuality, and Abortion being offences carrying prison sentences.

And the Introduction of the Birth control pill, and the death of some of my friends due to poliomyelitis and tuberculosis.

It wasn't all wonderful. :)

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 07:27
That's all fine, Ashley, but in future please don't make ignorant assumptions about my love of music in comparison to yours. I work from home and probably listen to music on average 6-7 hours per day, and often more that that!

However I like recorded music to sound 'real', not a processed facsimile of 'real', like I hear with things like iPods and MP3 players. We'll see what your Apple TV is like when I'm down, but no matter how good it is, IMO it's still a soulless and impersonal way of accessing one's favourite tunes.

Long live records and CDs!

Marco.

Records sound nothing like real for reasons already given and with Digital material the source is irrelevant, it's the DAC that dictates sound quality.

Compressed digital material on a good system varies from indistinguishable from the CD to barely distinguishable and never with distortions as unpleasant as those from a turntable whose material has had to be distorted to get it on to vinyl. In my opinion (and many others) 128K MP3's, which are worse than what you actually buy, sound appreciably better than records and quite musically involving.

As I've already explained the TDA1541 was rendered obsolete because it wasn't as good sounding as Burr Brown DAC of the early nineties. It also came with a poor digital filter which upset Naim and Quad Amps and is Linn/Naim shrieked about CD not being ready yet.

Current DACs are all 24 bit parts and appreciably better sounding. To put it another way, the DAC in an iPod Shuffle would be better than a TDA1541.

Ash

Marco
22-04-2008, 09:16
Hahahahahaha... What a load of complete bollocks! :lol:

I won't even dignify most of it with an answer, Ashley. Vinyl still has the highest resolution of any music carrier - fact. Digital is a compromised second best.

Anyway, bring an iPod Shuffle along to our forthcoming meeting and we'll see how well it does against my DAS-R1. Be prepared to have a very rude awakening!! :eyebrows:

I attended a meeting recently at Owston, you may have read the thread, and the DAS-R1 was recognised as and appreciated by very experienced and discerning enthusiasts as a superb sounding piece of equipment. Indeed, a test was carried out against various other DACs, some high-end ones from a similar era as the Sony, some very good D.I.Y ones, and some well-regarded modern DACs such as the Beresford.

The Sony was voted the clear winner, and by people with no preconceptions or bias towards it. The Beresford was quite clearly the worst of them all - I've got no idea what chip is in it, but it completely disproves your assertion that modern DACs are better. People with discerning ears recognise that the TDA1541 is one of the best, if not the best, DAC chip ever made. If you had brought an iPod Shuffle to the meeting it would have been laughed out the room and shown as the piece of junk that it is, in comparison to the Sony or any other DACs there!

Read what Leo has written in his thread in the D.I.Y room. He builds DACs to a very high standard and recognises that the TDA1541 is the best. You're alone on this ridiculous viewpoint of yours about Burr Browns, so give it up before you make yourself look even more ridiculous than you have with your claims about ADM9s and valve amps!

Leo wrote (on the D.I.Y DAC thread):


TDA1541A double crown is still my favourite chip to date, I've tried and heard so many different commercially made units using BB, Wolfson, AD, Cirrus etc, I've also built quite a few diy dacs using these various chips and I always come back to this classic, implemented correctly no other device has that realism in the midrange, decay of piano that this one has IMHO.


Hear, hear Leo! - A man who knows what he's talking about.

Marco.

Marco
22-04-2008, 09:30
Another discerning TDA1541 fan joins our merry band...


Hello from Chester!

I was at the Owfest meeting last weekend but I arrived late and didn't get chance to chat to Marco, catching up as we were on all the new systems and meeting up with everyone again the time just flew past. I liked the sound of his Sony DAC though. But then I would as I am "tuned" to the 1541!

I am from Chester, my system at the moment is:

IPL S5TL Gold transmission line speakers
WAD Kit6550 amp. (Soon to be WAD 300B PP amp)
CDPro2 CD player (custom built case - see above!)
TDA1541A DAC (custom built - Pedja Rogic main pcb - See above!)
SqueezeBox 3 with Tent clock mods, psu mods, etc.


Tony knows the score.

As they say in Glasgow, Ashley, 'get it right up ye!' :lol:

:ner:

Marco.

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 09:47
It's obvious that these guys know how to make the best of a tda 1541, and they suit their design and construction methods .........

BUT ! ...............

It doesn't mean that the 1541 is the best chip by any standards. :)


It was designed 25 ago and if it had been able to hold it's own against more recent designs, then it would still be in production now.

The reality is that it has been superseded by newer chips particularly the Wolfson ones which an overwhelming majority consider to be vastly superior. But they are not quite so easy for amateurs to design with since there is as yet no "hobbyist" following and ideas pool, to provide guidance.

This is of no consequence to a manufacturer who has his own design facility and who wishes to obtain the best performance advantages available.

:)

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 09:48
Marco
I quite happy to have an informed debate with you, but there's no point at all if you don't read and understand what I've said.

1. You must understand that all modern DAC chips have remarkably similar performances and are virtually impossible to tell apart. Therefore when you listen to a commercial DAC, you're hearing the designers implementation of the instructions he'll have been given and you may also be hearing interaction between the Amplifier and the DAC if that's no good as well. Just as though you'd given your mother and several of her friends a collection of ingredients and asked them all to bake a cake, they'd get different results. With cakes it doesn't matter but with DAC's it does.

2. Vinyl has at least 100 times as much distortion as CD and it's all nasty stuff. I can't keep explaining this and I can't understand how anyone can put up with it.

3. I think you should give us greater credibility than you do, because we do have track record for outstanding sound quality and because Martin probably is one of the most able designers in the UK.

4. I also would ask you to remember that if I make statements it'll be because great care has been taken to establish that what I'm saying is provable and has probably been verified by people who visit us but aren't employed by us, some will be professionals whose livelihood depends on good hearing.

Ash

Marco
22-04-2008, 09:59
Ashley,

You can waffle on as much as you like. I don't give a toss what 'professionals' think, nor do I have the time or the energy to argue with you on this matter. You're assertions about vinyl are laughable and your credibility is reducing by the day. I'll bring my Technics down with some mint vinyl and we'll see what happens shall we? That is if you can switch off your ridiculously biased head.

The proof of the pudding will be in the listening. This is all that matters.

I tell you something, though, given all your endless posturing on the TDA1541, and toy iPods, etc, you better hope that they're better than my DAS-R1, because, although I will be constructive as usual, if they're not better I will show NO MERCY in my criticism - believe me!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 10:02
Ashley,

You can waffle on as much as you like. I don't give a toss what 'professionals' think, nor do I have the time or the energy to argue with you on this matter.

The proof of the pudding will be in the listening. This is all that matters. Let's see what happens when I come down.

I tell you something, though, given all your endless posturing on the TDA1541, and toy iPods, etc, you better hope that they're better than my DAS-R1, because, although I will be constructive as usual, if they're not better I will show NO MERCY in my criticism - believe me!! :eyebrows:

Marco.
i can see where this is going, [i can almost here the keyboards being hammered at this moment]
your better will be a diffrent type of "better" than his, and vice/versa!!!:scratch::confused::eyebrows:

Mr. C
22-04-2008, 10:07
Perhaps some real world listening may help Ashley.
Then again perhaps not :lolsign:

Marco
22-04-2008, 10:09
LOL.

Anthony, at least I'll be able to hear their 'benchmark', which will allow me in future to comment with authority on ADM9s, iPods and MacBooks as a 'hi-end' hi-fi source ;)

Marco.

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 10:11
ehmmm!!!

Please make your own thread and bugger off! Then perhaps we can get back to being rude about retailers.

Marco you made your bed with these idiots, you will just have to sleep in it!

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 10:12
LOL.

Anthony, at least I'll be able to hear their 'benchmark', which will allow me in future to comment with authority on ADM9s, iPods and MacBooks as a 'hi-end' hi-fi source ;)

Marco.

here, here.....;):)

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 10:14
Marco

There are substantial improvements in modern electronics over those made 20 years ago and they are audible whether you like it or not, however it's dotty to argue about what is still a good CD player with a better life expectancy than those made now. It's not like record players which really are poor performers and listened to by people who've been Linn-washed!

Ash

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 10:21
Marco

There are substantial improvements in modern electronics over those made 20 years ago and they are audible whether you like it or not, however it's dotty to argue about what is still a good CD player with a better life expectancy than those made now. It's not like record players which really are poor performers and listened to by people who've been Linn-washed!

Ash
ash,
you cannot keep comparing up to date recording/playback technolgy with those old 78's you used to play, those are not the type of records we are talking about.
and by the way, if those 78's are sounding that bad, i suggest you change the needle, it may have gone a bit blunt! you should find some new ones in a little tin that was suppled with your gramaphone!!!:lol::eyebrows::ner::lolsign:

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 10:22
Perhaps some real world listening may help Ashley.
Then again perhaps not :lolsign:

No offence Mr C but you're a bit of a plonker if you don't think we do real world listening.

We have quite a few customers and friends who actually record Acoustic instruments, even Big Bands as well as all sort of speech and electronic music. They come here will proper references and they help us. We're not arrogant enough to trust our own judgement alone.

I'll bet you have no proper references, just a blind faith in pricey exotica.

Marco
22-04-2008, 10:22
When will you give up? :lol:

Marco.

Marco
22-04-2008, 10:25
ehmmm!!!

Please make your own thread and bugger off! Then perhaps we can get back to being rude about retailers.

Marco you made your bed with these idiots, you will just have to sleep in it!

True, but the entertainment value is priceless!! ;)

Marco.

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 10:26
I prefer 78's to LPs because they don't have the phase problems that comes with "stereo" cartridges and poor channel separation. However any that I listen to came from JC and are MP3's, which does help.

Ash

NRG
22-04-2008, 10:29
You must understand that all modern DAC chips have remarkably similar performances and are virtually impossible to tell apart. Therefore when you listen to a commercial DAC, you're hearing the designers implementation of the instructions he'll have been given and you may also be hearing interaction between the Amplifier and the DAC if that's no good as well. Just as though you'd given your mother and several of her friends a collection of ingredients and asked them all to bake a cake, they'd get different results. With cakes it doesn't matter but with DAC's it does.

Maybe they all sound the same because the implementation of each "design" is really just datasheet engineering. The "designer" is assuming the manufacturer has the datasheet right with regards to sound quality.....maybe.

The Gainclone DIY fraternity is a classic example. Stick to the datasheet and you get a stable working amplifier that will meet the datasheet specs. As such it sounds poor and they all sound the same. The broad base of DIY'ers have shared knowledge and experiences over the last few years finding ways to improve the sound by implementing different topologies that the manufacture would not have thought of. The result is different flavours of the same basic design but suited to an individuals tastes, sure some sound dire (but no worse than the datasheet implementation) and other truly stunning.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 10:36
I prefer 78's to LPs because they don't have the phase problems that comes with "stereo" cartridges and poor channel separation. However any that I listen to came from JC and are MP3's, which does help.

Ash

ash, ash,
come on mate, you can't be seroius about what you have just said!
my comment was to be taken in the context it was written[i was pulling your leg] you really are un-reachable most of the time, lighten up!
and really you can't expect us to believe that because your 78 recordings have been put on another playback format that somehow they sound any better than they did before! diffrent maybe after JC has butchered them with his re-recording techniques!:mental::confused::eyebrows:

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 11:21
True, but the entertainment value is priceless!! ;)

Marco.

Since when is talking to a couple of hi-fi spin doctors entertaining? Next you will be telling me you like talking to politicians.

I repeat go make your own bloody thread, I would much prefer to keep them out of this one, but probably some hopes!

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 11:45
I still prefer old records recorded around the 70's and 80's to CD equivalents.

Analogue has far higher resolution than CD or MP3, indeed so does master tape, CD and digital is a poor facsimile of the recorded message. Indeed records have always been considered to provide a far more communicative and involving listen. They also have better dynamic range LOL.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2

All those little niggles like pops clicks and surface noise can be addressed with care, and with old music tape hiss is evident regardless of medium.

I also prefer the older CD's without barcodes and even the early barcode copies in some cases to new re-issued re-mastered bollox with is recorded too high and has no dynamic expression or depth of image.

A bit like that MP3 crap :),
Actually I was enjoying some music replayed on cassette the other day, which I found quite enjoyable, and served to remind me all those years ago when all I listened to was analogue, of my first impressions of CD replay, which was that it was shit, lacking in involvement, with un-natural emphasised one note bass, Hi-Fi 2d quality and completely bland. And this was compared to cassette, FM radio and the odd LP.

I was a bit of a latecomer in CD replay due to it's inadequacies. Of course nowadays everything is done on the cheap with poor digital equipment of limited resolution by young know it all's who think due to equipment advances they can boost digital as it was done with analogue tables.

Most of this I feel is due to the current state of british mentality and work skill and education standards, which has been handicaped by youth since the 80's who all want play and no work, to live for free and drain society with further and further education paid by anyone else but themselves. Not to mention the effect this current attitude and trend regarding what UK citizens expect for free, and the power this free education and class status it gives them.

New recording techniques and high resolution are not best utilised by most industries, or most modern music, remixing and such. It all suffers due to the current inadequacies of our education, work force skill and personal attitude of UK citizens, not to mention the "I know better, it is cause its new" issue we still see.
Look at the BBC, many fora are full of old BBC die hards who will argue till they have a stroke about "Old values and Old technology" and many "Educated" still argue about what can and cannot make a difference with fact based on hype and a test bench example.

Digital is about convenience and profit and is still miles behind analogue resolution, and most of the work carried out nowadays is by inexperienced opinionated know it all's who have never heard or experienced real high fidelity.:popcorn:

Analogue rules ;)

Marco
22-04-2008, 11:49
I repeat go make your own bloody thread, I would much prefer to keep them out of this one, but probably some hopes!


I'll attend to it shortly, but I'll only be moving the Owston stuff as it already has a dedicated thread :)

Marco.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 11:50
I still prefer old records recorded around the 70's and 80's to CD equivalents.

Analogue has far higher resolution than CD or MP3, indeed so does master tape, CD and digital is a poor facsimile of the recorded message. Indeed records have always been considered to provide a far more communicative and involving listen. They also have better dynamic range LOL.

All those little niggles like pops clicks and surface noise can be addressed with care, and with old music tape hiss is evident regardless of medium.

I also prefer the older CD's without barcodes and even the early barcode copies in some cases to new re-issued re-mastered bollox with is recorded too high and has no dynamic expression or depth of image.

A bit like that MP3 crap :),
Actually I was enjoying some music replayed on cassette the other day, which I found quite enjoyable, and served to remind me all those years ago when all I listened to was analogue, of my first impressions of CD replay, which was that it was shit, lacking in involvement, with un-natural emphasised one note bass, Hi-Fi 2d quality and completely bland. And this was compared to cassette, FM radio and the odd LP.

I was a bit of a latecomer in CD replay due to it's inadequacies. Of course nowadays everything is done on the cheap with poor digital equipment of limited resolution by young know it all's who think due to equipment advances they can boost digital as it was done with analogue tables.

Most of this I feel is due to the current state of british mentality and work skill and education standards, which has been handicaped by youth since the 80's who all want play and no work, to live for free and drain society with further and further education paid by anyone else but themselves. Not to mention the effect this current attitude and trend regarding what UK citizens expect for free, and the power this free education and class status it gives them.

New recording techniques and high resolution are not best utilised by most industries, or most modern music, remixing and such. It all suffers due to the current inadequacies of our education, work force skill and personal attitude of UK citizens, not to mention the "I know better, it is cause its new" issue we still see.
Look at the BBC, many fora are full of old BBC die hards who will argue till they have a stroke about "Old values and Old technology" and many "Educated" still argue about what can and cannot make a difference with fact based on hype and a test bench example.

Digital is about convenience and profit and is still miles behind analogue resolution, and most of the work carried out nowadays is by inexperienced opinionated know it all's who have never heard or experienced real high fidelity.:popcorn:

Analogue rules ;)

well said that man!!!:eyebrows::);)

Marco
22-04-2008, 11:54
Hi Steve,


Analogue has far higher resolution than CD or MP3, indeed so does master tape, CD and digital is a poor facsimile of the recorded message.


The bit in bold is undisputable fact. The remainder is the view of discerning listeners. But of course in Ashley's bizarre fantasy world things are different! ;)

Marco.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 11:54
ash, ash,
come on mate, you can't be seroius about what you have just said!
my comment was to be taken in the context it was written[i was pulling your leg] you really are un-reachable most of the time, lighten up!
and really you can't expect us to believe that because your 78 recordings have been put on another playback format that somehow they sound any better than they did before! diffrent maybe after JC has butchered them with his re-recording techniques!:mental::confused::eyebrows:
sorry guys,
i have had some anxiety pangs since i wrote this,
i will re-phrase, after JC HAS RE-MASTERED them using his state of the art recording techniques.:eyebrows::confused::mental::lol:

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 12:02
Vinyl has its place as do all forms of audio reproduction, but to say one is better than another is a bit silly as it can never be proven one way or another. It's all to do with what the individual looks for and enjoys in sound, some like a crazy musical ride, some like infinitesimal detail and some like it loud. Therefore no particular format can be 'better', it can only be more suitable.

Saying that....


...They also have better dynamic range...

...trying to argue with completely false facts is another thing. The approximate dynamic range of vinyl is around 65dB whereas the limit in the digital domain is only limited by bit depth; i.e. mathematically it's 6 x bit-depth which for CD is 96dB, being digital the value increases in a linear fashion with word length. Therefore dynamic range is far far greater in the digital domain than analogue replay equipment could ever get near.

Then again sound is not judged on dynamic range, or at least not solely so that negates digital being 'better' than analogue or vice versa.

:)

Mr. C
22-04-2008, 12:04
Ashely,

Plonker eh?, still I stand by what I said, do you do any real world listening, as if you feel AD9's make a viable alternative then you do live pretty much in cuckoo land.
OK for a pc based system maybe, for those wishing to experience music, a very long way off. For an easy to make and a heathly profit margin product, I can see the advantages.
Never seen some much penial waving and posturing before, its quite amusing and sad and the same time.
I would asking this if I was a outsider looking in, so called professionals engaged in 'Mine is better than yours', plus how much time have these guys got on their hands, if they can spend all day posting this drivel, must be doing a cracking amount of business???
once again, the same old few, very much reminds of the mana debates, shame this place had potential.

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 12:06
...shame this place had potential.

Sorry, how's this a fault of the forum?

Marco
22-04-2008, 12:17
Tony,

I agree with much of what you're saying but despite disagreeing with almost everything they write, Ashley and JC have broken no rules and deserve the right to express their views the same as anyone else.

However I will ask Ashley to remove his "plonker" comment as this is a personal remark and therefore not allowed. I am surprised at him.

Ashley, please attend to this A.S.A.P.

Marco.

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 12:33
Ashely,

Plonker eh?, still I stand by what I said, do you do any real world listening, as if you feel AD9's make a viable alternative then you do live pretty much in cuckoo land.
OK for a pc based system maybe, for those wishing to experience music, a very long way off. For an easy to make and a heathly profit margin product, I can see the advantages.
Never seen some much penial waving and posturing before, its quite amusing and sad and the same time.
I would asking this if I was a outsider looking in, so called professionals engaged in 'Mine is better than yours', plus how much time have these guys got on their hands, if they can spend all day posting this drivel, must be doing a cracking amount of business???
once again, the same old few, very much reminds of the mana debates, shame this place had potential.

I respect everyone's wish to use whatever system they like and enjoy it, what I don't like are facts being ignored or contradicted. And I certainly don't intend to offend anyone. All I'm doing is placing before you a mixture of widely held beliefs and facts that are diametrically opposed to those expressed on here. Please don't take offence or assume that I'm alone or even a minority.

Mr. C. The vast majority of recordings (and most video and film) are made on computers and have been for twenty years or so. Likewise most records have been made using 6.5" two way speakers as Monitors (mostly Active) and most of the hi fi market is for two-way speakers of a similar size. Professionals make records to suit the systems they are most likely to be heard on and we make Studio Monitor/hi fi speakers the same size but with a better performance than most. You should also that we've cracked the Sub issue of integration and we offer a seriously powerful one to make them full range. This means customers get closer to the original performance. I'm sorry if this doesn't constitute the "real world" for you.

It seems to me that most one here have elaborate systems that bring them as much pleasure as the music, not something that appeals to me but perfectly understandable as is listening to turntables. However, if you are critical of what we (and other significant experts) are absolutely sure is a significant advance in the quality of sound reproduction, I'm bound to respond.

Ash

Marco
22-04-2008, 12:40
Make sure and remove the plonker remark, Ashley. You don't do personal, remember?

Marco.

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 12:40
However, if you are critical of what we (and other significant experts) are absolutely sure is a significant advance in the quality of sound reproduction, I'm bound to respond.

Ash

Since when has a marketing man been a "significant expert" on anything but marketing, which is the skill of telling lies (nowadays relabelled as spin) and bullshit. In that my dear fellow you are truly a significant expert.

Colinx
22-04-2008, 12:45
are you aware of the many alternate definitions of expert,

one of my favorites being, ex- as in something that has been spurt, as in drip under pressure

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 12:50
Richard (and I hope Marco will indulge me here) you're extremely rude and you should know better if you are an electronic engineer. If you understand the description, you more than others, should know that there is substance to the claim.

I'm not a Marketing and it wouldn't be relevant if I was.

What is more relevant is that I'm struggling to engage in a debate here with some extremely sympathetic people who agree with very little that I've said and, apart from Mr C, who's a dealer, all have been kind patient and tolerant except you. Why don't you bugger off or make an effort to contribute to the debate.

Ash

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 12:52
Make sure and remove the plonker remark, Ashley. You don't do personal, remember?

Marco.

Although mildy derisory, I don't see plonker as being much to inflame Marco so I'd like it to stay because Mr C. is a bit confused and has been terribly rude.

Ash

PS. Richard is very rude too!

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 12:54
Since when has a marketing man been a "significant expert" on anything but marketing...

Who knows, do you? Do you know what anyone has studied / practiced / been skilled at BEFORE you encountered them? Or do you just assume that what someone does now is all they've ever done? Just because Ashley is in marketing at the moment doesn't automatically exclude him from having done engineering or electronics either before or as a section of his job now does it.

Maybe before people jump down the throats of others they may like to get to know a bit about their background first.

Marco
22-04-2008, 12:59
Although mildy derisory, I don't see plonker as being much to inflame Marco so I'd like it to stay because Mr C. is a bit confused and has been terribly rude.


Ashley,

The matter is not up for debate. When I ask you to do something, you do it - end of. Please therefore attend to it immediately. Cheers!

Marco.

Marco
22-04-2008, 13:08
Richard (and I hope Marco will indulge me here) you're extremely rude and you should know better if you are an electronic engineer. Ash

Richard,

Play nice ;)

I will sort this thread out for you after I've finished a couple of things, remove the 'alien' content, and move it to a thread of its own :)

Marco.

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 13:09
Could I have a six month Ban instead?

Ash

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 13:10
Nope. :)

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 13:10
Richard (and I hope Marco will indulge me here) you're extremely rude and you should know better if you are an electronic engineer. If you understand the description, you more than others, should know that there is substance to the claim.

I'm not a Marketing and it wouldn't be relevant if I was.

What is more relevant is that I'm struggling to engage in a debate here with some extremely sympathetic people who agree with very little that I've said and, apart from Mr C, who's a dealer, all have been kind patient and tolerant except you. Why don't you bugger off or make an effort to contribute to the debate.

Ash

So you are a techy now are you? you actually know what you are talking about and not just getting half baked words from your techy to peddle around the magazines and forums. I think not. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt, please tell us which AVI product you designed and how you did it.

You are basically known for one thing within the industry and that is to be the most irritating marketing man of the lot, and that is a seroius claim and takes a level of skill and thick hide beyond any of us poor mortals.

Basically an Ivor without the money making skills.

Marco
22-04-2008, 13:12
Just remove the remark and stop acting like an arse :lol:

;)

Marco.

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 13:17
I'm serious! I've had enough, if people are just going to insulting in a way that suggests they're not dealing from a full pack, I'm off.

There are some really nice and tolerant people on here, but Mr C and Richard are muddying the waters and will drag things down to their level.

Goodbye

Ash

Marco
22-04-2008, 13:20
Well I'm sorry to see you go, Ashley. I thought you were made of sterner stuff.

Marco.

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 13:38
I am too but before I do, I thought you might be interested to see what I've just been me sent by a Nashville producer foolish enough to have bought ADM9s and love them.

I think it's poignant: http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com/

If Mr C and Richard apologise I might consider coming back, but I've had enough of their sort of behaviour, they're why people are so critical of Forums. They say it's like people shouting insults from their Motorcars, knowing they can drive off and avoid the consequences.

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 13:40
Vinyl has its place as do all forms of audio reproduction, but to say one is better than another is a bit silly as it can never be proven one way or another. It's all to do with what the individual looks for and enjoys in sound, some like a crazy musical ride, some like infinitesimal detail and some like it loud. Therefore no particular format can be 'better', it can only be more suitable.

Saying that....

...trying to argue with completely false facts is another thing. The approximate dynamic range of vinyl is around 65dB whereas the limit in the digital domain is only limited by bit depth; i.e. mathematically it's 6 x bit-depth which for CD is 96dB, being digital the value increases in a linear fashion with word length. Therefore dynamic range is far far greater in the digital domain than analogue replay equipment could ever get near.

Then again sound is not judged on dynamic range, or at least not solely so that negates digital being 'better' than analogue or vice versa.

:)

Regarding dynamic range,

Well that's why I posted the link. CD is not all it's cracked up to be, paper specification does not always show the facts, and the link did seem to substantiate the opinions of some who preferred LP some time back in some long ago forum discussion.

As for fact? I was under the impression that digital still has some way to go before having the same resolution as analogue? Many still see even 24/192 as rather basic and still behind? CD and digital have not progressed far enough to provide the quality and improvement claimed other analogue. It has been handicapped for years, and further progression handicapped more by accepted standards in high fidelity and modern recording techniques.

Personally I did not intend to state any as better or my preference, only that CD and digital is not perfect, does not yet approach high fidelity analogue recordings, and is not as dynamically capable in real life as stated on paper.

From what I can gather ;).

:)

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 13:48
As for fact? I was under the impression that digital still has some way to go before having the same resolution as analogue?

Indeed you may be correct, but I am not disputing that, simply in certain circumstances digital is superior to analogue and in others analogue is superior to digital. The debate will always remain as to if either one is 'better'.


Personally I did not intend to state any as better or my preference, only that CD and digital is not perfect, does not yet approach high fidelity analogue recordings, and is not as dynamically capable in real life as stated on paper...

There is no 'perfect' way to reproduce sound, it's simply not possible. Yes it's possible to get damn close, damn damn close in fact, but neither digital or analogue will ever be perfect - unfortunately. :(

I can understand that digital will never be as dynamically capable as it is on paper, nothing is as good as its theory generally, but it is certain that digital is more dynamically capable than analogue. Essentially analogue should be infinitely dynamic (as sound itself is) but there's far too much resistance from the laws of physics to make analogue reproduction infinitely dynamic, less so with digital but at the end of the chain there has to be analogue (or physical) stages regardless of source - i.e. loudspeakers.

:)

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 13:57
Mr. C. The vast majority of recordings (and most video and film) are made on computers and have been for twenty years or so. Likewise most records have been made using 6.5" two way speakers as Monitors (mostly Active) and most of the hi fi market is for two-way speakers of a similar size. Professionals make records to suit the systems they are most likely to be heard on and we make Studio Monitor/hi fi speakers the same size but with a better performance than most.

You should also that we've cracked the Sub issue of integration and we offer a seriously powerful one to make them full range. This means customers get closer to the original performance. I'm sorry if this doesn't constitute the "real world" for you.

Ash

I disagree with the mast majority of music and film being done by computer only, though no doubt a hell of a lot of cheap rubbish is done this way.
We still have vast amounts of analogue material to enjoy. Not all of it is limited in its fidelity by being mixed via digital or computer on piddling small two way monitors either :)

As for cracking the sub issue, with the sub having it's LF cut off at 30hz, claiming full range is debatable ;)

High quality open-reel tape frequency response can extend from 10 Hz to well above 200 kHz.

LP player might be 30 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 3 dB. Unlike the audio CD, vinyl records do not require a cut-off in response above 20 kHz, but of course depends on the quality of the pressing and replay chain, I am sure an SME 20 with Series V is quite tolerant of a Rohmann carts frequency responce, with a suitable phono stage..
(Frequency range at - 3dB 20-55.000 Hz, Frequency response 20-20.000 Hz ± 2 dB)
CD on the other hand is limited by the implementation of said player, can be any thing from low hertz to a brick wall at 20khz. SACD and DVD-A better.

:)

Steve

Colinx
22-04-2008, 13:58
Having followed ashley's link the bit that hit me was

''Check the growing sales of turntables, vinyl records, stereo receivers and bookshelf speakers. Music is almost as important as oxygen. It will always find a way to flourish.''

Marco
22-04-2008, 13:59
Ashley,

I like you, but what you have to realise is that you come on forums and express views in a very robust cocksure style which are diametrically opposed to those of the majority of members, so I'm sorry, but you have to accept the inevitable consequences. I don't believe that anyone has been unduly nasty towards you.

Robust debating will always be permitted here, but personal insults will not be tolerated, and we've ensured that whenever this has happened it is quickly dealt with. Richard has been asked to moderate his remarks and although he has been impertinent towards you he has not used invective, certainly since his recent return. Tony (Mr C) has done nothing wrong whatsoever, and did not deserve to have you insulting him because he hit a raw nerve with one of his remarks.

Anyway, it's your decision to go if you wish. None of the admin team wishes you to do so, but if you're waiting for an apology from Tony or Richard I think you'll have a long wait!!

My advice? Stay and give as good as you get without resorting to personal remarks and be a man not a mouse :) You are quite capable of sticking to your guns and defending yourself!

Marco.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:02
I am too but before I do, I thought you might be interested to see what I've just been me sent by a Nashville producer foolish enough to have bought ADM9s and love them.

I think it's poignant: http://nowhearthisblog.blogspot.com/

If Mr C and Richard apologise I might consider coming back, but I've had enough of their sort of behaviour, they're why people are so critical of Forums. They say it's like people shouting insults from their Motorcars, knowing they can drive off and avoid the consequences.

don't be a silly old sod!
no one on here with any sense [that i have read anyway] has ever implied that adm9's can't possibly be any good, in fact i would go as far as saying that for the purpose they were intended they probably do a reasonably good job, [i am sticking my neck out here having not heard them] and i for one have said in past posts that i would really like to hear what they are capable of one day, without any prejidice [spelling] so come on, get back on your soap box, you will only have more time on your hands to play with those old pieces of british motoring memrobilia, see, i can be diplomatic!:eyebrows::lol:
sincerely anthony...;)

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 14:13
don't be a silly old sod!
no one on here with any sense [that i have read anyway] has ever implied that adm9's can't possibly be any good, in fact i would go as far as saying that for the purpose they were intended they probably do a reasonably good job, [i am sticking my neck out here having not heard them] and i for one have said in past posts that i would really like to hear what they are capable of one day, without any prejidice [spelling] so come on, get back on your soap box, you will only have more time on your hands to play with those old pieces of british motoring memrobilia, see, i can be diplomatic!:eyebrows::lol:
sincerely anthony...;)

Just as cheering breaks out in the ranks along comes an NCO (newly appointed and wanting to make a name for himself) to try and bloody well ruin things! typical.

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 14:16
Just as cheering breaks out in the ranks along comes an NCO to try and bloody well ruin things! typical.

SQUAD! ATTENNNNNNTION!

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:21
Just as cheering breaks out in the ranks along comes an NCO (newly appointed and wanting to make a name for himself) to try and bloody well ruin things! typical.

its a good thing i have a wicked sense of humour, or you and the muppet would be toast! be carefull i dont turn the volts up on that plug...:lol::lol::lol:

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 14:22
stand Aaaat Ease!

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:22
SQUAD! ATTENNNNNNTION!

just as a long as you know your place!!!:eyebrows::lol::ner:

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 14:24
just as a long as you know your place!!!:eyebrows::lol::ner:

SIR YES SIR!

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 14:26
its a good thing i have a wicked sense of humour, or you and the muppet would be toast! be carefull i dont turn the volts up on that plug...:lol::lol::lol:

No problem I am the one using it, the rest of you are represented by Beaker. Be afraid - be very afraid.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:27
SIR YES SIR!

thats better!!!:eyebrows:;):):gig:

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:29
No problem I am the one using it, the rest of you are represented by Beaker. Be afraid - be very afraid.
i was talking to beaker!!!:eyebrows::lol:

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 14:34
i was talking to beaker!!!:eyebrows::lol:

Waste of time he doesn't speak, he only meeps!

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 14:37
Waste of time he doesn't speak, he only meeps!

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol:
nice one;)

snapper
22-04-2008, 14:44
The vast majority of recordings (and most video and film) are made on computers and have been for twenty years or so. Likewise most records have been made using 6.5" two way speakers as Monitors (mostly Active) and most of the hi fi market is for two-way speakers of a similar size. Professionals make records to suit the systems they are most likely to be heard on and we make Studio Monitor/hi fi speakers the same size but with a better performance than most.
Ash

The most successful recording studio in Europe does not use computers.



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/r3.jpg



http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/r2.jpg


It uses analogue tape.



:ner:

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 14:53
Which studio is that?

Oh, one thing:


...vast majority...

:lol:

snapper
22-04-2008, 14:57
Rockfield.

Just pointing out the most successful.

:lolsign:

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 15:05
Rockfield.

Just pointing out the most successful.

:lolsign:
hi david,
nice picks, i wonder what they use for play back monitoring?;)

snapper
22-04-2008, 15:08
hi david,
nice picks, i wonder what they use for play back monitoring?;)



If you can make out the speaker in the corner.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/r1.jpg

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:19
Yeah, that's a Tannoy Dreadnought if I'm not mistaken. Rare, mega expensive and THE monitor to use. There's a pair that repeatedly come up on ebay but haven't found a buyer yet. £25k if I remember correctly.

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:20
Won't sound very good in the corner though. :(

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 15:22
If you can make out the speaker in the corner.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/r1.jpg
no idea what speaker that is, though i would guess somone on here can shed some light on it, at least, it looks like its full range though!;):)

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 15:26
Yeah, that's a Tannoy Dreadnought if I'm not mistaken. Rare, mega expensive and THE monitor to use. There's a pair that repeatedly come up on ebay but haven't found a buyer yet. £25k if I remember correctly.
nice one rob,
you must have answered as i was writing my apeal!;):)

Marco
22-04-2008, 15:27
Hey David nice pikchoorz, dude :smoking:

I wonder why they are the most successful recording studio? ;)

They'll certainly make superior quality recordings there than the junk produced by most studios these days!

Analogue recordings will always sound better than digital. Those who disagree fall into one of the following categories:

1) They've never heard the difference properly between both at their best.

2) They have an agenda, i.e. they're in the business of selling digital products.

End of.

One of the best sounds, and certainly one with the highest resolution, is analogue tape. For those who've never heard a good reel-to-reel tape deck, listen to one, and then you'll quickly learn that recording quality has not made any real advances in the last 40-odd years, in fact it has gone backwards.

Marco.

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:34
nice one rob,
you must have answered as i was writing my apeal!;):)

Nay probs, Vangelis uses / used a pair of those you know.



Analogue recordings will always sound better than digital. Those who disagree fall into one of the following categories:

1) They've never heard the difference between both properly.

2) They have an agenda, i.e. they're in the business of selling digital products.

End of.

No No No NO!

You've missed out the bit in red:


Analogue recordings will always sound better to me than digital. Those who disagree fall into one of the following categories.

It's impossible to categorically state that analogue recordings sound better than digital as others (who don't necessarily fall into either of the narrow categories) may or will disagree. Neither is better, just more suitable for individuals. I prefer the sound of digital, always have, and I have heard some truly extraordinary analogue sources. Still I prefer the sound of digital.

As that's a fact I could state that digital is better, but I won't as it's untrue, as is stating that analogue is better.

:)

Man we've wandered way off topic, but sod it, that's what a forum is for. :)

snapper
22-04-2008, 15:35
Picture showing both speakers and mixing desk.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/davhar/r6.jpg

When I visited they were in the process of ripping out the mixing desk and about to install one they sourced from Holland.

IIRC they said the new mixing desk involved tubes,as well as some new (1963) tube mics.

:confused: I just nodded and said 'niiiiice'.:lol:

BlueMax
22-04-2008, 15:38
Rockfield.

Just pointing out the most successful.

:lolsign:They are not the only one!
I still have a Nakamichi Dragon ;)

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:39
Ahhh, scrub my comment about the corner then. :)

Marco
22-04-2008, 15:42
Quality, Snaps!

Bluemax,

Nice one. I have CR-7 :)

Rob, with respect, what top-notch analogue set-ups have you owned and used at home?

It's only when you regularly use both types of equipment day in, day out, that you begin to truly appreciate their respective sonic capabilities :smoking:

I'll bet you anything you like that when you hear my set-up you'll prefer the modified SL-1210 to the Sony, and both are exceptional products.

Also, have you ever heard music on a high quality reel-to-reel tape deck?

Marco.

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:48
Rob, with respect, what top-notch analogue set-ups have you owned and used at home?

In saying that you're stating that only those who've spent lots and lots of money on one or the other have an opinion on sound quality and what they prefer, which is a little nonsensical. I've heard many systems and the analogue sources have never excited me or made me go 'WOW' whereas the only system that has really caused a mouth drop was one that was fronted by a computer. You know the one I mean. ;) I could spend £100,000 on an analogue source system, but I guarantee that it wouldn't fulfil me in the way that a £100,000 digital source system could, it's my hearing and digital suits it best.

Granted there are some wonderful turntables and wonderful analogue recordings, but that doesn't instantly mean that all digital sources and digital recordings aren't as good, it just means that some people like analogue and some like digital.

Oh, and of course most people on the planet can barely tell the difference anyway, not like us highly tuned audiophiles. :)

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 15:50
I owned a Uher Pro reel-to-reel many years back, very nice machine but unfortunately I wasn't into hi-fi then so I can't comment on how good the sound was. Granted it was probably a whole heap better than my Sony tapedeck though. :lol:

snapper
22-04-2008, 15:58
They are not the only one!
I still have a Nakamichi Dragon ;)


That seems a strange choice for a studio.:scratch:


Got any pics?


What artists use your studio?


Or is it confidential?

Marco
22-04-2008, 15:59
I've heard many systems and the analogue sources have never excited me or made me go 'WOW'

I think you should reserve definitive judgement until you've heard one that can make you go "WOW". Hopefully I should be able to provide you with that experience sometime soon ;)

As an aside, ask Steve what the Technics is like when playing mint well-recorded vinyl. He knows my system very well, and he was once similarly as sceptical about vinyl as you.

Trust me, if you heard a good professional reel-to-reel machine now that you're in a position to appreciate what it does your eyes would be wide opened! :)

Marco.

snapper
22-04-2008, 16:01
The first big hit recorded in the studios was Dave Edmunds’ I Hear You Knockin' in 1970. Following that success, the studios were used to record Peter Hammill's second solo album Chameleon in the Shadow of the Night in 1973 and Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody in 1975.

During a 12-month period in 1996-97, Rockfield sessions resulted in five UK Number One albums, by Oasis, Ash, Black Grape, The Charlatans and the Boo Radleys. Other acts using the studios have included Robert Plant,[1] Black Sabbath, Budgie, Echo & the Bunnymen, Motörhead, Rush, Hawkwind, The Stranglers, Iggy Pop, The Pogues, Paul Weller, Simple Minds, Manic Street Preachers, Sepultura, Kasabian, and New Order.

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 16:03
I could reserve judgement, and actually in all honesty one should reserve judgement until their death bed - i.e. when one's never going to hear anything more. Trust me mate, I know analogue can sound tremendous, I've owned a very nice turntable in the past and I loved it, I love the squelch of synths played back from a turntable, I love the realism of a well balanced turntable, I know how good modded turntables can sound, but digital still does it for me.

Maybe it's the cleanliness, maybe the inky blackness, maybe it's the virtually non-existent noise level - I don't know, but it's what I prefer.

However, I'm still looking forward to hearing your system. Be aware though, I may drug you, nick your amps and them claim you were burgled. :)

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 16:05
The first big hit recorded in the studios was Dave Edmunds’ I Hear You Knockin' in 1970. Following that success, the studios were used to record Peter Hammill's second solo album Chameleon in the Shadow of the Night in 1973 and Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody in 1975.

During a 12-month period in 1996-97, Rockfield sessions resulted in five UK Number One albums, by Oasis, Ash, Black Grape, The Charlatans and the Boo Radleys. Other acts using the studios have included Robert Plant,[1] Black Sabbath, Budgie, Echo & the Bunnymen, Motörhead, Rush, Hawkwind, The Stranglers, Iggy Pop, The Pogues, Paul Weller, Simple Minds, Manic Street Preachers, Sepultura, Kasabian, and New Order.

What! no Spice Girls!

Marco
22-04-2008, 16:09
However, I'm still looking forward to hearing your system. Be aware though, I may drug you, nick your amps and them claim you were burgled. :)

Not before I've taken you up the hills first and shagged you! :lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

P.S We may be able to 'work something out' with the amps. PM me and I'll tell thee of my idea.

snapper
22-04-2008, 16:13
Maybe they've changed a lot of the equipment since I visited (2001?).




"Rockfield was developed by converting redundant farm buildings without the help of any design consultants," Kingsley Ward recalls. "We have always relied on our own ability for acoustics. To this day, Rockfield relies on natural acoustics to capture the sound of musicians."

The facility consists of two main studios, The Quadrangle and The Coach House. Each offers a very large main live room (28x19 and 26x14 feet, respectively); an additional good-sized live iso room (The Quadrangle incorporates two iso booths); and four natural echo chambers with an up to 3.2-second reverb time.

And, of course, over the years, the facility has amassed a tremendous selection of equipment. Each control room is equipped with a 60-input Neve VR console and JBL 4350 main monitors. Both studios offer a variety of Studer A820 24-track, 2-track and 2-inch recorders with Dolby SR. There's also an extensive list of outboard gear from AMS, Klark Teknik, Yamaha, TC Electronic, Tube-Tech, Drawmer, Orban, Eventide and others. And the studio is particularly proud of its vintage Neumann microphones, which include two U67s, five SM2 stereo mics and two KM56s. There are also many newer choices from Neumann, AKG, Sennheiser, EV, Shure and Beyerdynamic. A three-person maintenance crew works full-time during weekdays and is on call in off hours to keep all the gear in shape.


"More than 1,000 million recordings from Rockfield have been sold worldwide," Kingsley Ward says, "which is more than all the other residential studios in the UK put together."


Not bad for a wee farmhouse in Wales.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 16:20
Maybe they've changed a lot of the equipment since I visited (2001?).




"Rockfield was developed by converting redundant farm buildings without the help of any design consultants," Kingsley Ward recalls. "We have always relied on our own ability for acoustics. To this day, Rockfield relies on natural acoustics to capture the sound of musicians."

The facility consists of two main studios, The Quadrangle and The Coach House. Each offers a very large main live room (28x19 and 26x14 feet, respectively); an additional good-sized live iso room (The Quadrangle incorporates two iso booths); and four natural echo chambers with an up to 3.2-second reverb time.

And, of course, over the years, the facility has amassed a tremendous selection of equipment. Each control room is equipped with a 60-input Neve VR console and JBL 4350 main monitors. Both studios offer a variety of Studer A820 24-track, 2-track and 2-inch recorders with Dolby SR. There's also an extensive list of outboard gear from AMS, Klark Teknik, Yamaha, TC Electronic, Tube-Tech, Drawmer, Orban, Eventide and others. And the studio is particularly proud of its vintage Neumann microphones, which include two U67s, five SM2 stereo mics and two KM56s. There are also many newer choices from Neumann, AKG, Sennheiser, EV, Shure and Beyerdynamic. A three-person maintenance crew works full-time during weekdays and is on call in off hours to keep all the gear in shape.


"More than 1,000 million recordings from Rockfield have been sold worldwide," Kingsley Ward says, "which is more than all the other residential studios in the UK put together."


Not bad for a wee farmhouse in Wales.

briliant,
makes me proud i am welsh [again]
not that i am one of those funny language speakers mind you, look you three times boyo, isnt then....;):lol:

Mike
22-04-2008, 16:29
Right.....

That's it, from now on I'll confine myself to threads that at least seem to have at least SOME small semblance of staying vaguely on-topic.

I've heard of thread drifts, but for the love of god this place goes off on more tangents than a geometry teacher on acid!

It seems to be mostly caused by erm, ' a certain few' but I'm not going to be drwn into anymore arguments. So there!

:mental:

Marco
22-04-2008, 17:09
Oi, grumpy, this is a classic thread in the true A.O.S tradition :eyebrows:

Marco.

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 17:24
Hello Mike, Hello Blue Max,

Ash needs rescuing, Marco has disciplined him unfairly and deprived us all of his input.

Marco, please have a look back thro' the earlier part of this thread. You will see that Mr C, and Richard used far more derogatory personal terms about me and Ashley than "plonker"

I chose not to respond at all, because quite frankly I don't give either of them much credibility.

However Marco, you did fail to call out the personal derogatory attacks on Ashley, and that was an error if you later wish to discipline Ashley for replying with the term "plonker"

It is indeed mild compared to what they called him here and on other threads.

I think they were doing it on purpose so as to try and antagonise Ashley deliberately and that is a clear breach of AUP.

Marco this is all your fault and you have got to put it right.

You should accept that you didn't give Ashley the support that he deserves and allow his retaliation in the face of uncorrected name -calling by others.

We were all having a good time till this cropped up and I think we should continue.

Please sort it out. :) pretty please :)

Filterlab
22-04-2008, 18:01
Not before I've taken you up the hills first and shagged you! :lol:

:lolsign:

Marco.

P.S We may be able to 'work something out' with the amps. PM me and I'll tell thee of my idea.

I hope it's not 'that' kind of working something out. :scratch:


Oi, grumpy, this is a classic thread in the true A.O.S tradition :eyebrows:

Marco.

Damn straight! Who'd have thought this thread was about the price of oil. :lol:

Marco
22-04-2008, 18:16
Marco this is all your fault and you have got to put it right.


It's hardly all my fault, JC. I wasn't involved in the name calling. The fact is Ashley's robust style of posting and headstrong attitude is bound to cause him problems. He's already admitted that he knew he'd piss some people off and he's not been far wrong! He must have factored this into the equation.

I don't 'have to do' anything. Ashley's a big boy and more than capable of defending himself without your help. However in the interests of fairness if you feel Ashley's been ill-treated then quote me direct text from Mr C and Richard that you feel is in breach of the AUP, even though there isn't one - we have an ethos instead, and I'll have a look at it :)

Marco.

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 19:10
Here are some examples, from recent posts. They are not the worst. they are just the first 3 or 4 that I came upon.

There are about 20 or thirty more across all the threads.

You did pick up on one of the others which was to admonish Richard for using the derogatory term "walking disease"

____________________________________________

Richard
Marco you made your bed with these idiots,

Since when is talking to a couple of hi-fi spin doctors entertaining?

Since when has a marketing man been a "significant expert" on anything but marketing, which is the skill of telling lies (nowadays relabelled as spin) and bullshit. In that my dear fellow you are truly a significant expert.

Colin

are you aware of the many alternate definitions of expert,
one of my favorites being, ex- as in something that has been spurt, as in drip under pressure

Ash

No offence Mr C but you're a bit of a plonker if you don't think we do real world listening.

__________________________________________

In Ashleys defence he had been under severe pressure from derogatory remarks, and he DID preface his remark with "no offence" meaning he did not intend to disrespect Mr C, but merely categorise Mr C's BEHAVIOUR at that instant as being that of a "plonker".

I actually think that, in context, this was "fair comment" and no more than we all say and do on many occasions.

After all, who is to say that at that moment Mr C wasn't having a tempory bout of being a plonker. We may never know.

BUT, Marco you merely told Richard to cease and desist, which he ignored, and then you force ashley to "apologise" for something that is probably "fair comment" if taken in context.

Marco, you are only human, but you have not been even handed here,

You should relieve Ashley of his burden to apologise on this occasion, as you did not require the same performance of the other parties in the matter.

By all means admonish all involved but lets see the same rules for everyone.

I hope you agree Marco. :) Regards JC.

Mike
22-04-2008, 19:15
Dammit.... I was trying to leave this thread alone, and it pains me to say that I think JC may have a point I'm afraid.

:doh:

Colinx
22-04-2008, 19:17
If I am to be dragged into this then you should take the entire ref, not just the reply, Ashley's posting was -

It seems to me that most one here have elaborate systems that bring them as much pleasure as the music, not something that appeals to me but perfectly understandable as is listening to turntables. However, if you are critical of what we (and other significant experts) are absolutely sure is a significant advance in the quality of sound reproduction, I'm bound to respond.

my response was to the other significant experts, not a direct crack at Ashley, I actually felt I had been restrained in response.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 19:32
Here are some examples, from recent posts. They are not the worst. they are just the first 3 or 4 that I came upon.

There are about 20 or thirty more across all the threads.

You did pick up on one of the others which was to admonish Richard for using the derogatory term "walking disease"

____________________________________________

Richard
Marco you made your bed with these idiots,

Since when is talking to a couple of hi-fi spin doctors entertaining?

Since when has a marketing man been a "significant expert" on anything but marketing, which is the skill of telling lies (nowadays relabelled as spin) and bullshit. In that my dear fellow you are truly a significant expert.

Colin

are you aware of the many alternate definitions of expert,
one of my favorites being, ex- as in something that has been spurt, as in drip under pressure

Ash

No offence Mr C but you're a bit of a plonker if you don't think we do real world listening.

__________________________________________

In Ashleys defence he had been under severe pressure from derogatory remarks, and he DID preface his remark with "no offence" meaning he did not intend to disrespect Mr C, but merely categorise Mr C's BEHAVIOUR at that instant as being that of a "plonker".

I actually think that, in context, this was "fair comment" and no more than we all say and do on many occasions.

After all, who is to say that at that moment Mr C wasn't having a tempory bout of being a plonker. We may never know.

BUT, Marco you merely told Richard to cease and desist, which he ignored, and then you force ashley to "apologise" for something that is probably "fair comment" if taken in context.

Marco, you are only human, but you have not been even handed here,

You should relieve Ashley of his burden to apologise on this occasion, as you did not require the same performance of the other parties in the matter.

By all means admonish all involved but lets see the same rules for everyone.

I hope you agree Marco. :) Regards JC.

jc,marco, ash,
to be honest, and for the record, IMHO i think its all been a bit silly realy, and what is a plonker anyway, we all take the mick out of each other from time to time,[i am always doing it] but when its meant with malice, thats destructive, and can lead to further, more serious acusations if not curbed, marco, i think was right to intervien, but only to stop things in their tracks before it went to far, ash, i must say, you do antagonise people to the point they lash out on ocasions,thats not a criticism, its a fact, but i understand your pasion for your produts...i think if ash only related to the fact that someone must be a plonker because... and not directly said your a plonker full stop, then, maybe its a case for a re-think. i am sure mr C has much too broader shoulders to let this sway him... of course this is just my view....
anthony...:)

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 19:37
With respect Colin, I don't agree, the context of your reply did seek to illustrate Ashley, and maybe others as well, in a derogatory light, and di increase the pressure on him.

To his credit he did not persue your remark, but that doesn't excuse such an unnecessary insult whoever you claim you directed towards.

Marco
22-04-2008, 19:39
Jeez, it's like being in a bloody kindergarten. Ok...

JC, I can't see any personal remarks in that lot that Mr C has written. As far as I can see Ashley called Mr C a "plonker" without Mr C making a personal remark towards him... Show me some evidence of Mr C making personal remarks to Ashley, and I'm talking about stuff such as "idiot", "plonker", "dickhead", or words of that nature.

The only other thing I can see is Richard's use of the word "idiot", which is inappropriate and which I will now remove.

The fact is Ashley was "under severe pressure from derogatory remarks" because of the remarks he was directing at others, and because his views on hi-fi are so diametrically opposed to most people here. You cannot 'convert' people to something they don't want to be converted to in the first place. If you try it they simply rebel, no matter how 'right' you think you are. That's human nature.

There's an old saying that goes: 'You reap what you sow'. Ashley would do well to think about that.

Basically, the ball's in Ashley's court whether he wants to post or not. I'm not asking him to apologise for anything and he's not banned. I will remove his "plonker" remark myself, but I'm not spending any more time on this nonsense.

Marco.

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 19:41
I agrre Anthony and Shian7, a rethink is appropriate and would make everyone happy again.

Let's return to respectful exchanges of opinion. :)




(and piss-taking) er NO, (forget I said that).

Mike
22-04-2008, 19:42
I'm hungry :cheers:

Colinx
22-04-2008, 19:42
With respect Colin, I don't agree, the context of your reply did seek to illustrate Ashley, and maybe others as well, in a derogatory light, and di increase the pressure on him.

To his credit he did not persue your remark, but that doesn't excuse such an unnecessary insult whoever you claim you directed towards.

well fine, if he can not take the returns he should not serve the ball,.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 19:47
I agrre Anthony and Shian7, a rethink is appropriate and would make everyone happy again.

Let's return to respectful exchanges of opinion. :)




(and piss-taking) er NO, (forget I said that).
jc,
nothing wrong with a bit of piss taking,[as long as thats all it is]
and the recipient knows it!!!;):):eyebrows::ner:

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 19:49
Ok Marco, glad you agree in principle,

Here's a few of Mr C's remarks, although I think Richard has been the major offender and contributed most to Ashleys re-action to the remark by Mr C of not listening in the real world.

__________________________________________________ ________

Mr C

I had hope for a better responce, but as usual the basic Jc reply.
Do you have any others in your limited section to choose from.
Thread crapping, this is one skill you do excel at with hons'



Forever the wind up artist, still in-search of the eternal place to rest your ever ever increasing ego-gathering device



You are a wooden spoon enhancement specialist Bsc Eng (with Hons).


have you considered therapy? I am sure a 12 month support package could be put together


I like the way this is shaping up..........:punch:


Ashley and Jcb, sort of head/sand syndrome going on there!


seriously bigoted, bias and plain paranoid


Pleased to join the frey.:)


__________________________________________________ ___

I also see that Mr C is trying to get in on your act with "THE FREY", although he only has his dealer's hat to bring to the party.

I'm glad you agree Marco, It's all water under the bridge now but I do think you should email Ashley and tell him he is relieved of the burden to apologise, other wise I fear he won't post again.

You may find he then even apologises of his own accord.

Marco
22-04-2008, 20:05
JC, I've spent as much time as I'm going to spend on this nonsense. You're Ashley's mate so you email him and tell him!

He's welcome to post if he wants. And incidentally I only asked Ashley to remove his "plonker" remark not to apologise.

Now I don't want to hear any more about this crap.

Marco.

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 20:18
You're forgiven Ashley,

If you're reading this,

Marco says so,

With his "Administrators" hat on,

I think I'll go and hide for a while,

I've heard what he did to "The Frey",

and Mr C wants to join in as well ;)

Wankers ! oops, is that derogatory ? or factually accurate ? ;)

Err ..... I think I'd better not say that, .... Consider it withdrawn please,

byeee ........ :)

Ashley James
22-04-2008, 20:20
I actually think it's quite a nice Forum with a good bunch on it, but I've noticed it doesn't take much on any forum for things to go too far and I thought Richard was pushing it too hard earlier. Disagreeing is healthy but he's just extremely rude.

I'm glad JC was here to defend though because Marco's like a virgin's knickers; Always On! Thank God Samaritans are only a phone call away!

Ash

Mike
22-04-2008, 20:25
Awww...c'mon lads, grow up everyone. This is all BS, don't make me put my mod hat on now! :)

Damn.... I'm back on this bloody thread again! :doh:

sastusbulbas
22-04-2008, 20:31
Yeah, that's a Tannoy Dreadnought if I'm not mistaken. Rare, mega expensive and THE monitor to use. There's a pair that repeatedly come up on ebay but haven't found a buyer yet. £25k if I remember correctly.

The speakers in that soffit install are not Tannoy Dreadnought, but JBL 4350 Studio Monitors.

anthonyTD
22-04-2008, 20:31
You're forgiven Ashley,

If you're reading this,

Marco says so,

With his "Administrators" hat on,

I think I'll go and hide for a while,

I've heard what he did to "The Frey",

and Mr C wants to join in as well ;)

Wankers ! oops, is that derogatory ? or factually accurate ? ;)

Err ..... I think I'd better not say that, .... Consider it withdrawn please,

byeee ........ :)

yea,
go and do some scratch mixing for a while, or what ever it is you do with those 78's...;):confused::eyebrows::lol:

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 21:44
When can I have my thread back?

Mike
22-04-2008, 21:46
Now!..... Please!

Marco
22-04-2008, 22:00
When can I have my thread back?


The stage is yours, Mr Dunn...

Marco.

Cotlake
22-04-2008, 22:18
Elswhere I previously posted to Marco that I was not interested in this forum because of all the shallow crap discussed. This thread completely demonstrates my view. I signed up after Marco made a commitment and came to Owston, listened, compared his kit with others and played a part in our world. I seriously respect him for that and feel guilty I never bought him that pint I promised. Maybe some other time.

However, this thread epitimises all I have no time for on audio forums. Clearly most of you are up yourselves to a point of totally losing the plot. Most of what you write is total bollocks; you don't know what a good sounding system really is because you've spent a lifetime in marketing and you'd rather spend your time squabbling about inconsequencial nonsense. Keep it up guys but I'm off. I've got better things to do than waste time reading all your totally shallow crap. It amazes me that you justify a living earnings during the day producing all this nonsense. Most of you need to get out there and really get a life! Maybe if you are so good at what you do you could make a difference but I doubt that is in you itinery.

I've listened to the AVI stuff at the Bristol Show. Absolute rubbish. Flat presentation with no three dimensional sound stage. No instrument/voices in space and a general shoddy one note bass sound. The absolute bollocks of it all is Ashley enjoys playing his computer recording of an original wax cylinder :scratch: I could do better with £150 spent at Richer Sounds....seriously.

There comes a point when being so into marketing, you seriosly loose the plot and clearly that is where you guys are. Wrap it up and get back to the sound. Having said that, in order to do so you need to have the ears to hear. Maybe many of you just don't have that natural ability or you need to visit the nurse for an ear syringe. Who Knows?

Marco, sorry, I gave it a go but frankly you are hosting a forum populated with some good people but also alot who are a waste of time and unfortunately these seem to be the most prolific posters. I'm moving on and off. I really can't be bothered with these people.

Best wishes,

Greg

Mike
22-04-2008, 22:29
However, this thread epitimises all I have no time for on audio forums. Clearly most of you are up yourselves to a point of totally losing the plot. Most of what you write is total bollocks; you don't know what a good sounding system really is because you've spent a lifetime in marketing and you'd rather spend your time squabbling about inconsequencial nonsense.

Very sad.

But unfortunately true (at elast in this thread). It's a pity you're not going to hang around Greg, there ARE some interesting folk around and I was hoping that with a few more like you the general 'tone' could be raised somewhat.

Sadly, it seems there are a 'few' who seem to infiltrate so many threads with the same old bollocks.

<sigh> Here I am again in this bloody thread! :mental:

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 22:31
What about all the other threads Greg ? Did you try those ?

WikiBoy
22-04-2008, 22:36
The stage is yours, Mr Dunn...

Marco.

Post #9 in this thread is where (yet again) Ashley Marketing Corp hijacked it. Please take it back to that point and consign the rest to the dustbin, or another thread if you insist.

You are testing a lot of peoples patience with your tollerance of these two, you have lost two members today, and they are the ones that have told you!

So whats to stop them coming back and crapping on this thread again, eh!

Jerry said "it will all end in tears" how right, how very right!

jcbrum
22-04-2008, 22:44
As far as this thread goes Richard, You started it !

Marco
22-04-2008, 23:04
Hi Greg,

No worries. The respect is mutual :)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but sometimes certain threads go the way this one has. I don't think you could say the same thing about the majority of discusssions on the forum.

I would like for you to contribute here regularly so what do you suggest I do? I would honestly value your opinion on this.

Richard,

You have a point. I'll look through this thread tomorrow and prune it as necessary. I'm off to bed soon.

Marco.

Steve Toy
23-04-2008, 01:22
Enough is enough

I'm really not into being forced to choose who I want to post on this forum but I will state that I also heard ADM9s at the Bristol Show. I was not impressed - to the point that I spent more time listening to Ashley's excuses for the high noise floor (noise outside the room) than I possibly could at his, er, system. Yes it could go loud but then so can one of those midi systems with plastic speakers on steroids and a box of tricks with flashing lights and equalisation, somewhere within which there's an amp chucking out, and I mean chucking, 200 wpc PMPO.

It was possibly the "future of audio" [shudder] and a good fit-and-forget solution for "professionals" with little time to spend selecting a music programme never mind actually sitting down to listen to the music. These same targeted professionals with long working hours that almost justify their 6-figure salaries could not tell the difference between a £200 Denon CD player and a £12,000 Esoteric. Convenience really is the key for these guys over actual quality of music reproduction.

Ashhley has even tried to suggest that there really is no difference between the two aforementioned CD players and his position is backed up by his old-boy side kick from Birmingham. This is not a point worth arguing as anyone with an ear for music devoid of a particular marketing agenda will know is complete and utter bullshit.

The Art of Sound is a forum for discerning folks with good (musical) ears. We've given the Ashley/Brum axis two shots now at contributing constructively and positively to this forum and both times they've been successful only in tainting the place with their political propaganda devoid of any real merit and substance. Like all seasoned and rather cynical politicians they've been very good at ducking, diving and avoiding answering some difficult questions.

Their asset-to-liability ratio really does tip heavily towards liability. For a while I thought they served as fitting punchbags in debates and were, to my amusement, rather out of their depth and clutching at straws, but as admin I'm no slut for traffic volumes for their own sake especially where quality of discussion suffers as a result.

They are not banned but I'll be quite relieved to see them (they come as a matched pair like KT88s) take some form of sabbatical from this forum. The whole AVI marketing style of spending hours on hours polluting just about every forum (this, HFC, PFM, need I go on... that will have them) rings lots of alarm bells in my head and from a purely marketing POV I see them putting a lot of potential customers off. As my wife told me tonight, someone once shoved rhubarb down her throat when she was a child. She's not eaten it ever since.

Why else would they not want to allow their potential customers from being encouraged to hear their product before they actually part with their money?

Answer - the product itself with the BS removed is not particularly inspiring, to my ears at least. I'm one of a few who have actually heard them and only bullshit can convince the gullible high-flyers of this world that they are worth more than an upgrade for the little speakers that sit either side of your PC monitor.

We've wasted far too much time on providing a futile platform for them to dominate and hopefully peddle their wares on our discerning folks here who will always know better.

Now chaps, back to the programme, whatever it was.

Richard, I'm glad you are back, but please keep a cool head. Ta.

Filterlab
23-04-2008, 07:51
The speakers in that soffit install are not Tannoy Dreadnought, but JBL 4350 Studio Monitors.

I am mistaken. :)

They look very similar though.

Filterlab
23-04-2008, 07:57
Good post Steve, and I agree wholeheartedly. It's happened on this forum and others from what I've read and that's not really the point of a forum.

But....


...into being forced... I'm no slut... in my head... POV.... shoved rhubarb down her throat... cool head...

:lol: You've been watching way too much porn mate. :)

Marco
23-04-2008, 09:07
LOL. Fair enough, Steve. This is exactly why we have three people in our admin team!

I've not heard ADM9s, so I'll reserve final judgement until I have. But given Greg's damning appraisal and yours, not to mention what I've heard from other people whose ears I trust; it's not looking good for the little AVI boxes...

I will move all the 'off-topic' stuff here to a thread of its own. I'm on it now :)

Marco.

Ashley James
23-04-2008, 09:39
Greg is talking through his hat and if he understood the theory, he'd not have made such daft comments.

Theory: Stereo image width is dictated by drive unit dispersion characteristics, but primarily diameter and the phase coherence between tweeter and bass driver and the two speakers. Phase accuracy of ADM9's is within 1 degree between drive units and a pair of speakers so there's nothing made that's better.

Image depth is down to system signal to noise and guess what: Active is better than passive.

Now we all know that listening tell you so much more than us, so chase through postings on Wigwam and you'll find one chap who report they're sounding bigger and wider than their size, which is what you'd expect, but there are those like Greg announcing it's not possible from a small speaker. But it is more possible from a small speaker than a big one.

Steve did come and see us at Bristol and he not only assured us that Naim's new mains cable made as big a difference as going active, but also that if he had £80K to spend it'd be on Naim. They of course are known for "the Naim sound" and if you like that you're not going to like a proper representation of the recording.

One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.

One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon, why don't you look the up so you can rubbish their ears as well.

As for wittering on about marketing when none of you seem to know what that entails!
The first thing I do is identify a target group. This is a group most likely to want what I'm trying to sell, then I find a way of taking the message to them. I've done that and it's working. I'm bloody busy.

Now how do you think anyone on this or PF stack up as a target group? Or put another way - Can you think of any group less likely to buy? Because I'm buggered if I can.

The fact is that most of the arguments against ADM9's are nothing more than prejudice and mostly from people who simply don't understand the theory well enough to realise they are talking utter crap. No one can believe the evidence of their ears if they have the attitude displayed by some on message boards.

I'm happy to bugger off but don't think you can spurt insults and not get a proper and considered defence for a properly designed product.

WikiBoy
23-04-2008, 09:49
Greg is talking through his hat and if he understood the theory, he'd not have made such daft comments.

Theory: Stereo image width is dictated by drive unit dispersion characteristics, but primarily diameter and the phase coherence between tweeter and bass driver and the two speakers. Phase accuracy of ADM9's is within 1 degree between drive units and a pair of speakers so there's nothing made that's better.

Image depth is down to system signal to noise and guess what: Active is better than passive.

Now we all know that listening tell you so much more than us, so chase through postings on Wigwam and you'll find one chap who report they're sounding bigger and wider than their size, which is what you'd expect, but there are those like Greg announcing it's not possible from a small speaker. But it is more possible from a small speaker than a big one.

Steve did come and see us at Bristol and he not only assured us that Naim's new mains cable made as big a difference as going active, but also that if he had £80K to spend it'd be on Naim. They of course are known for "the Naim sound" and if you like that you're not going to like a proper representation of the recording.

One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.

One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon, why don't you look the up so you can rubbish their ears as well.

As for wittering on about marketing when none of you seem to know what that entails!
The first thing I do is identify a target group. This is a group most likely to want what I'm trying to sell, then I find a way of taking the message to them. I've done that and it's working. I'm bloody busy.

Now how do you think anyone on this or PF stack up as a target group? Or put another way - Can you think of any group less likely to buy? Because I'm buggered if I can.

The fact is that most of the arguments against ADM9's are nothing more than prejudice and mostly from people who simply don't understand the theory well enough to realise they are talking utter crap. No one can believe the evidence of their ears if they have the attitude displayed by some on message boards.

I'm happy to bugger off but don't think you can spurt insults and not get a proper and considered defence for a properly designed product.

Rhubarb!

And what is the best thing for good Rhubarb - horse shit!

And once again you dump copious quantities of it on this thread.

Please tell me what this post has to do with retailers in the current economic climate?

Ah good just as I go back in to read it I see it has been moved to your own personal horse shit thread, well done admin.

Marco
23-04-2008, 09:53
Richard,

I've sorted your thread out. It's now completely separate. This is Ashley and JC's 'play area' (and that of anyone else who'd like to contribute).

I've asked you a question there, too :)

Marco.

Steve Toy
23-04-2008, 10:04
One of our customers is Misha Scorer and another is Geoffrey Burgon


There's nothing like a bit of name dropping whoever they are.

I was impressed with the Naim set-up I heard, I usually am for what it does. However, spending 80k is hard to justify when I can probably get something I like even more for (much) less money.

I do know that musicians tend to fall into two distinct objectivist/subjectivist camps where hi-fi is concerned; the former opt for the best and most musical system they can afford and the latter regard all hi-fi as a mere facsimile of the real thing and therefore buy the cheapest one that measures well.

Marco
23-04-2008, 10:31
One thing that really pisses me off is the constant assertion that you are the connoisseurs of good sound quality not us! The truth is that you're on the fringe and using mostly equipment that cannot compete with the best modern electronics. You are enjoying yourselves and you love what you do, and I wouldn't be so critical if you weren't so insulting of ADM9s. They will be more accurate whether any of you like the sound or not.


The "truth" based on what, Ashley? And which examples of "modern electronics" are you referring to other than of course your own?

'Accuracy' is meaningless in hi-fi. All hi-fi equipment distorts the signal to some degree, including yours, so why is the AVI brand of distortion better than any other manufacturer's?

In reality, all any of us are doing is choosing our own compromises/distortions and building a system around them that we personally find musically satisfying. That's all we can do because there is no 'perfect' system - it isn't ADM9s, or any other AVI product, and it isn't anything else either.

Marco.

Ashley James
23-04-2008, 10:32
They create astounding product that points an arrow to the future due to non commercial motivation causing lateral thinking.
:lolsign:

Richard we're a small manufacturer, not as small as you, but with all the difficulties of establishing a business in a dying market, we both started as hobbyists and we've thought laterally and produced a product that rips the carpet out from under the present Cartel (albeit it an unintended cartel), so why is what we've done wrong and what you're suggesting right. Have we been too successful or something - perhaps you could explain.

Ash

PS. we've even reduced dealer margins so the customer gets better value for money. We've reduced overheads by subbing virtually everything and we've bought in quantity to keep costs down. We've done everything for the benefit of the customer and some can't believe it isn't a cynical trick!

Steve Toy
23-04-2008, 10:38
Ashley, folks would be less likely to see it all as a cynical trick if they didn't get the rhubarb treatment.

Your products, like everyone else's, have to stand up to the ultimate scrutiny... :confused:

shane
23-04-2008, 10:55
I've listened to the AVI stuff at the Bristol Show. Absolute rubbish. Flat presentation with no three dimensional sound stage. No instrument/voices in space and a general shoddy one note bass sound.


Greg is talking through his hat and if he understood the theory, he'd not have made such daft comments.

Theory: Stereo image width is dictated by drive unit dispersion characteristics, but primarily diameter and the phase coherence between tweeter and bass driver and the two speakers. Phase accuracy of ADM9's is within 1 degree between drive units and a pair of speakers so there's nothing made that's better.

Interesting, this. Greg has spent the last god-knows-how-many years developing a system that produces image width, depth and height in spades. He has, like most DIYers, become adept at identifying the factors in his (and many other) system that affect these aspects of performance, since they are important to him, and identifying subtle changes in prsentation that would escape most listeners. In the process, he has had to swallow his pride many times and accept that his prejudices are incorrect, to the extent of, for example, dumping thousands of pounds-worth of belt drive turntable in favour of a beat-up old Garrard 401, despite having been a fervant advocator of belt drive previously, so he is not afraid of changing his mind in the face of new evidence.

Are you seriously suggesting that if you had patiently taken him to one side in Bristol and explained the theory to him, he would suddenly have become aware of a wonderful three-dimensional presentation that he hadn't noticed before?

shane
23-04-2008, 10:58
Sorry Greg, I just re-read my post. Your 401 is beautiful...

Marco
23-04-2008, 11:07
That's a very good point, Shane, and welcome back :)

Please, as they say, don't let 'the b*stards' get you down! ;)

Regards,
Marco.

evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 16:26
Ashley, Your products, like everyone else's, have to stand up to the ultimate scrutiny.

I think the ultimate scrutiny is the market place generally not just you Steve Toy.
You do seem remarkably biased steve, after all the products have been exhibited at bristol two years running and have gained wide sales approval and many testimonials, particularly from the more professional users,
It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them, particularly on this forum.
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 16:34
I think the ultimate scrutiny is the market place generally not just you Steve Toy.
You do seem remarkably biased steve, after all the products have been exhibited at bristol two years running and have gained wide sales approval and many testimonials, particularly from the more professional users,
It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them, particularly on this forum.
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

come on jc,
stop messing about come clean, only you could defend avi with this amount of pasion.;)
[if i am wrong i am truly sorry]

evilpsycho666
23-04-2008, 16:43
Anthony it took a while for me to realise you were addressing me as jc. I assure you this is not the case, but unlike your friend Marco you have issued your aplology in advance. but dont repeat his errors please. I dont see it as a specific defence, I am just stating facts which are plain to see and anyone can check for themselves. Is this forum so heavily prejudiced that its not worth reading or posting.

Mike
23-04-2008, 16:56
I think the ultimate scrutiny is the market place generally not just you Steve Toy.
You do seem remarkably biased steve, after all the products have been exhibited at bristol two years running and have gained wide sales approval and many testimonials, particularly from the more professional users,
It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them, particularly on this forum.
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

Hi evilpsycho666 (!?)

I think it's more a case of people here being sick to death af having AVI rammed down their throats in so many different threads. No matter what the original topic had been at the start. You could say that 'the dynamic duo' have a bit of a track record on this.

Cheers,
Mike.

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 17:42
Mike I feel I must make it clear that I am a user of AVI equipment and although it is not the only thing I have posted about ( I seem to recall a long discussion about class A valve amps, and also about Class D stuff) I would feel discriminated against unfairly if I were not allowed to discuss the equipment that I think is the best, and which I own.

I have put this concept to Marco and he agreed with me, and stated that there were no rules such as that.

I usually only post on one thread at a time and do try and stick to the topic. It is usually other people who like to introduce adm9's and the like by feeling they can make derogatory statements about them without any real understanding of the technology or where hifi is at in the present market.

Generally I think I'm unfairly being given a bad press here, because I don't subscribe to the same view of legacy kit, and home made attempts that others do.

I might be a lone voice but I'm not rude or insulting in the way that others seem to think is OK. and occasionally I make some attempt at humour.

Even E666 seems to be getting flak for pretending to be me.

I'm really beginning to feel as if the whole world is against me and that I have no friends left anywhere (choke), .. (sob) ... I'll have to stop ......:violin:

Colinx
23-04-2008, 17:55
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

And why would that surprise you, I have noticed that if people buy something, and like it they do tend to sing its praises, whereas if they have heard it, and did not like it they don't buy it, and seldom have very many complimentary things to say on it's behalf. That added to the fact that if you want to listen to music you simply have to do it with a mac laptop of some description, and of course some active speakers from, errrr sod, forgot.

Just out of interest does any one happen to know how the google bot's work?

Mike
23-04-2008, 18:07
Mike I feel I must make it clear that I am a user of AVI equipment and although it is not the only thing I have posted about ( I seem to recall a long discussion about class A valve amps, and also about Class D stuff) I would feel discriminated against unfairly if I were not allowed to discuss the equipment that I think is the best, and which I own.

I have put this concept to Marco and he agreed with me, and stated that there were no rules such as that.

I usually only post on one thread at a time and do try and stick to the topic. It is usually other people who like to introduce adm9's and the like by feeling they can make derogatory statements about them without any real understanding of the technology or where hifi is at in the present market.

Generally I think I'm unfairly being given a bad press here, because I don't subscribe to the same view of legacy kit, and home made attempts that others do.

I might be a lone voice but I'm not rude or insulting in the way that others seem to think is OK. and occasionally I make some attempt at humour.

Even E666 seems to be getting flak for pretending to be me.

I'm really beginning to feel as if the whole world is against me and that I have no friends left anywhere (choke), .. (sob) ... I'll have to stop ......:violin:

OK JC, maybe my comments were a bit strong. But you do tend to be rather, erm, overly enthusiastic at times, would it be fair to say? ;)

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 18:38
OK JC, maybe my comments were a bit strong. But you do tend to be rather, erm, overly enthusiastic at times, would it be fair to say? ;)

Well it doesn't seem that way to me mike, particularly when I am forced to listen to Marco's rhetoric about his unique combination of golden ears and old sony kit.( I expect Ash will put him right though) I'm going to have a word with the Pope about him. Did you know Mr Ratzenburger and I have the same model of car ? people do say that it goes with my personality better though.

I suppose that along with "Dame Edna" (bless her, possums) we "International Superstars" can be a bit intense compared to the "minions" of the hifi arena.

Ashley James
23-04-2008, 19:04
JC is pretty typical of people who've bought ADM9's, we've always had enthusiastic followers but this is nothing short of miracle. An extremely high proportion of purchasers have written glowing testimonials, SOS have offered to give private ones to anyone seriously interested and the rows on various Forums I've been blamed for have actually because of the many others, who like JC, have bought the things and realised how much of a step forward they are. All they've done is tell people who don't want to hear they can do far better for a fraction of the money they've spent on their systems.

However this is a hobby disposed to intransigent bigots; Here we are coming to the end of CD and still there are people not only using Turntables but actually arguing they are better than CD. I'll bet there are people still using gas lighting too and they aren't representative either.

You're just going to have to accept that ADM9's are a product that produces religious fervour amongst their supporters and be sympathetic. JC has a real sense of humour, he's not bitter like Richard and he's converted his friend www.fwhifi.co.uk to computers and probably given his business a shot in the arm in doing so.

It seems to me that people on this Forum want Cart Blanche to rubbish AVI and ADM9s and also to be able to shriek with protest at any defence mustered by me or anyone else and condemn it as blatant and naff sales attempts. The best thing to do is leave them out of all discussions, ignore them and see what happens.

You might also remember that one of the true gentlemen of this Industry is Peter Comeau and that he sells Valve Amp kits via Hi Fi World. If you genuinely want to enjoy these things, you could do worse than buy from him. I'm certain the back up would be as good as it gets.

Ash

Colinx
23-04-2008, 20:09
I have no wish to rubbish you, or your companies products, what I do however have is the desire to listen to my music, in the way I, and the rest of my family enjoy. Why you have to persistently whitter on that you, and your disciples have seen the one true light is beyond me. You are offering a product to market, some will be interested, some will not. That is part of the market.
You may very well be right that we are coming to the end of CD, but if the only widely available music source is then to be compressed or lossless file downloads then I think it is a sad era approaching for music lovers. The ins and outs of DRM managed music files is a long way from being resolved, and if the music industry decides that, at the death of CD, that DRM will be imposed, then it will be, despite what you, the owners of the file formats, or apple/Windows say about it. This decision, IF taken by the music industry will also shut off a large part of the world that do not have access to computers in the home to any kind of recorded music.
I still feel that part of the attraction of digital music for many is the ease with which files are exchanged, and not all legally.

From my own point of view, if it becomes impossible to buy new music other than as a blasted download, unless that download is unmanaged, and can freely be burnt to CD for me to use as I see fit, then I will not be buying it, in fact my music purchases would be restricted to vinyl.

If that makes me an intransigent bigot then so be it, but I fail to see why I should be told by you, or any other interested business party how often and what machines I am allowed to use to play my purchased music. I equally would be very adverse to the latest money earning ideas from mac, pay more for the machine and have access to ''our'' library, or pay a flat monthly fee for access, again an idea that relies on the paying customer having Internet access available.

As for being sympathetic, why, I have little sympathy for any religious zealot from any walk of like, and given the nature of the discussions that have taken place on a number of boards I don't think you have the right to accuse anyone of being either intransigent or bigoted.

Filterlab
23-04-2008, 20:43
...Just out of interest does any one happen to know how the google bot's work?

Yep. Do you need a bot to scan a particular site?

Mike
23-04-2008, 21:08
However this is a hobby disposed to intransigent bigots;

There you go again!...... Is it any wonder that people take exception to many of your comments Ashley?

Mike
23-04-2008, 21:09
You might also remember that one of the true gentlemen of this Industry is Peter Comeau and that he sells Valve Amp kits via Hi Fi World. If you genuinely want to enjoy these things, you could do worse than buy from him. I'm certain the back up would be as good as it gets.

Indeed he is!...

And I have done just as you suggest!... What do you think that is in my avatar?

:lol:

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 21:25
I have little sympathy for any religious zealot from any walk of like,

I am not a religious zealot, colin, your term is inappropriate and derogatory.

Rather I think what I said earlier applies. Here's a reminder.


It is usually other people who like to introduce adm9's and the like by feeling they can make derogatory statements about them without any real understanding of the technology or where hifi is at in the present market.

And also I think you are a bit confused here


if the music industry decides that, at the death of CD, that DRM will be imposed, then it will be, despite what you, the owners of the file formats, or apple/Windows say about it.

The whole arena of digital music includes CD of course and has done for the last 30 years, it is only a very, very, small number of people who buy any new analogue equipment at all, certainly no longer enough to sustain the industry in hardware terms. Hence the emergence of Ebay bedroom-traders, such as Richard, simply because he has no other viable market. The usual dealers of legacy separates are also dumping their unsold stocks on ebay to try to re-equip with digital stuff that people want to buy.

It was not the music publishers that brought about the death of CD, it was the buying public, who had enough of being dictated to. They chose not to buy them, and instead turned to the excellent digital computer technology which is hifi today. No one can sell something that is not wanted but you are deluded if you think valve amps, legacy separates, big-old speakers are what people want. Look at the statistics, 200 million people have stopped using CD players and now keep their music on computers. Are you saying they are all fools colin ?


If that makes me an intransigent bigot then so be it,

Well you said it ! :)

Colinx
23-04-2008, 21:30
JCB or whatever. I suggest you read ashleys post as well as mine

I had typed a rather long reply, but decided that it really is not worth it, It feels like a conversation with my Dad

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 21:32
There you go again!...... Is it any wonder that people take exception to many of your comments Ashley?

Mike the term "Intransigent bigot" is a matter of fact. It might or might not be true, and in this case colin has admitted that it is, but it's not derogatory like "walking disease" or some of the other terms that have been used.

Mike
23-04-2008, 21:33
Hence the emergence of Ebay bedroom-traders, such as Richard, simply because he has no other viable market.

You are sailing close to the wind again JC!.......

I would rather not edit/delete your posts, but I will if need be.


Also, what makes you so sure that no-one wants valve amps, as you keep saying? More and more new valve amps, phono stages, buffers etc etc keep appearing almost every month. Not to mention the thriving DIY section!.... Get a grip man, you are flogging a dead horse!

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 21:39
Indeed he is!...

And I have done just as you suggest!... What do you think that is in my avatar?

:lol:

I too have recently purchased some components from Mr Comeau.

Mike
23-04-2008, 21:44
Good for you JC, glad to hear it. May I ask what perhaps?

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 21:51
Originally Posted by jcbrum
Hence the emergence of Ebay bedroom-traders, such as Richard, simply because he has no other viable market.


You are sailing close to the wind again JC!.......

I would rather not edit/delete your posts, but I will if need be.


Also, what makes you so sure that no-one wants valve amps, as you keep saying? More and more new valve amps, phono stages, buffers etc etc keep appearing almost every month. Not to mention the thriving DIY section!.... Get a grip man, you are flogging a dead horse!

Well, by no-one I mean almost no-one compared to the sales of current digital stuff. It's niche market small-beer stuff that people like richard can service adequately.

I really think you are unreasonably critical of my description of richard as an ebay bedroom trader, That is exactly how he describes himself. Selling from his house, every room full of stock, components upstairs and assembly and despatch downstairs, and an ebay shop selling direct to end-users.

Please mike, I do respect your opinions, why do you think that is sailing close to the wind and should be deleted ?

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 21:54
Good for you JC, glad to hear it. May I ask what perhaps?

Big inductors for complicated crossovers to handle 5.1 surround sound at high quality and compare it to a properly designed digi system.


Please don't think I'm belittling valve stuff, I just regard it in the same category as classic cars, which I like a lot.

Mike
23-04-2008, 21:59
Calm down, calm down......

It's just that you don't seem to be able to get away from this 'Richard thing' at all. If you keep antagonising him he WILL keep biting back, rather understandably IMHO. Leave him alone and I'm sure he'll leave you alone.

You (+ Ash) and he are like oil and water..... You will NEVER mix!


:doh:

anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 22:02
Well, by no-one I mean almost no-one compared to the sales of current digital stuff. It's niche market small-beer stuff that people like richard can service adequately.

I really think you are unreasonably critical of my description of richard as an ebay bedroom trader, That is exactly how he describes himself. Selling from his house, every room full of stock, components upstairs and assembly and despatch downstairs, and an ebay shop selling direct to end-users.

Please mike, I do respect your opinions, why do you think that is sailing close to the wind and should be deleted ?
jc,
you have just hit the nail on the head for some of us on here, without even realising it. "something you can service" that in itself assumes that the product can be repaired, not so with much of this new technology your so fond of, an example, my partner recently asked at a big reputable computer/software company if they could repair her laptop after she had a mishap with it, before she even explained in detail, the guy turned around and told her quite bluntly, no one fixes lap tops, their too dificult and time consuming!!!
its no wonder the tips are becoming filled with precious metals and other non sustainable materials.i for one would much rather build something that lasts, and deal with people who realy apriciate bespoke equipment...
am i wrong....:(

anthonyTD
23-04-2008, 22:24
Big inductors for complicated crossovers to handle 5.1 surround sound at high quality and compare it to a properly designed digi system.


Please don't think I'm belittling valve stuff, I just regard it in the same category as classic cars, which I like a lot.

jc,
and as for you relating valve amplification and equipment to classic cars, as if they are something to be sympathetic about because their old and obviously useless up against todays cars full of wonderous technology etc,well let me explain, i have a classic car, its nearly 30 years old, it has been considered by most as one of the most iconic cars of the last 40 years, why, well its not because of its age, its because of its performance. heres a clue, it has a flat 6 cylinder engine, in the back, and its 0 to 60 is under six seconds...
you see, i didnt buy a piece of acient shit and nurse it because i felt sorry for it, like you seem to think we are some how doing with valve amps, i bought it, first of all because i always wanted one, and the reason i always wanted one was because of its undesputed performance... over 40 years has passed since its launch, and it can still waste most of the modern crap on our roads today.
hope i have made my point...:)

WikiBoy
23-04-2008, 22:50
jc,
and as for you relating valve amplification and equipment to classic cars, as if they are something to be sympathetic about because their old and obviously useless up against todays cars full of wonderous technology etc,well let me explain, i have a classic car, its nearly 30 years old, it has been considered by most as one of the most iconic cars of the last 40 years, why, well its not because of its age, its because of its performance. heres a clue, it has a flat 6 cylinder engine, in the back, and its 0 to 60 is under six seconds...
you see, i didnt buy a piece of acient shit and nurse it because i felt sorry for it, like you seem to think we are some how doing with valve amps, i bought it, first of all because i always wanted one, and the reason i always wanted one was because of its undesputed performance... over 40 years has passed since its launch, and it can still waste most of the modern crap on our roads today.
hope i have made my point...:)

Its another disease like Hi-Fi, you should try old Alfa Romeo's, every time you take them out you come back with less bits than you went out with as something has dropped or rotted off, but you cannot stop having this stupid grin plastered all over your face everytime you sit in one and start the engine.

I have thankfully now grown out of it after 25 years, my last one I got rid of 4years ago, a 1989 LHD cam tail cloverleaf spider. Oh but it was just soooo beautiful.

Marco
23-04-2008, 22:59
Anthony it took a while for me to realise you were addressing me as jc. I assure you this is not the case, but unlike your friend Marco you have issued your aplology in advance. but dont repeat his errors please. I dont see it as a specific defence, I am just stating facts which are plain to see and anyone can check for themselves. Is this forum so heavily prejudiced that its not worth reading or posting.


Have you read your PM? If not I suggest you do so. I see you've still not listed your system yet or introduced yourself in the welcome room...

Listen, you are in no position to judge anyone's "errors" here, let alone mine!

If I don't see a more positive attitude from you in future you will be banned - it's as simple as that. All you've contributed so far is criticism. No-one uses this forum to settle their 'agendas', and I strongly suspect you have more than one.

And the D.O.B on your profile is 8th Jan 1992. So you're 16? Yes, very good!!

Marco.

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 23:08
I know where you're coming from on your car Anthony, cars I have owned in the past include mini cooper s, ferrari dino, lotus europa, lotus 26r with brm engine and back axle, triumph tr6, audi quattro, and a couple of bsa bikes.

Your rear engined flat 6, would be on my shopping list today, if I were not very happy with my present cars.

I have no problem with anyone liking valve stuff, I reluctantly sold some very valuable 50's and 60's stuff about 9 years ago when it fetched very good prices indeed. One item had 30 valves in it and I sold it with two complete spare sets of nos valves. I think it ended up with one of the directors of the original manufacturing company. It just could not compete with the modern digital stuff. The unit that replaced it cost £8k and I can do the same job now for £2k.

I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment and much inferior in terms of size and acceptability within modern decor schemes. People who insist otherwise are living in the past and could not survive if they had to make a living from hifi in anything other than a small cottage industry way.

YMMV. :)

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 23:13
Its another disease like Hi-Fi, you should try old Alfa Romeo's, every time you take them out you come back with less bits than you went out with as something has dropped or rotted off, but you cannot stop having this stupid grin plastered all over your face everytime you sit in one and start the engine.

I have thankfully now grown out of it after 25 years, my last one I got rid of 4years ago, a 1989 LHD cam tail cloverleaf spider. Oh but it was just soooo beautiful.

in the seventies my much older than me sister-in-law (well 6yrs) was just like Mrs Robinson in the graduate. I didn't dare go anywhere in a car with her. She would have looked good in your car richard.

Marco
23-04-2008, 23:20
I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment and much inferior in terms of size and acceptability within modern decor schemes. People who insist otherwise are living in the past and could not survive if they had to make a living from hifi in anything other than a small cottage industry way.


What a load of utter shit. If you don't stop writing this nonsense you'll be gone from here very soon, JC.

Tell me, how on earth do you know that for a FACT? I'm dying to know!!! My Spendors, for example, are based on 1970s technology. Are you trying to tell me SP100s are worse than 'modern' speakers? Your pal Ashley doesn't seem to agree, and I certainly don't. You really write the most absurd nonsense sometimes!

I'm not "living in the past", either. I just value superior sound quality with the music I listen to. Valve equipment, to my ears and those of many others, for example, is unquestionably better than solid state equipment of the same price. Some 'old' CD players, too, are better than many modern CDPs, and both are better than plastic toys like iPods and MP3 players.

And it's generally only hen-pecked partners and husbands who need to worry about "acceptability within modern decor schemes".

Are you one?

Marco.

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 23:40
What's with the hate post and the threats Marco ? why are you so angry suddenly ?

Computer sound systems are my profession.

Marco
23-04-2008, 23:43
The "truth" based on what, Ashley? And which examples of "modern electronics" are you referring to other than of course your own?

'Accuracy' is meaningless in hi-fi. All hi-fi equipment distorts the signal to some degree, including yours, so why is the AVI brand of distortion better than any other manufacturer's?

In reality, all any of us are doing is choosing our own compromises/distortions and building a system around them that we personally find musically satisfying. That's all we can do because there is no 'perfect' system - it isn't ADM9s, or any other AVI product, and it isn't anything else either.

Marco.


Ashley,

I'm still waiting for you to answer the above post, so please stop avoiding questions you don't feel like answering.

You should know me by now. When I ask you a question I expect it to be dealt with.

You have also conveniently avoided answering Shane's excellent post just after mine above on the same page.

Please attend to both A.S.A.P.

Marco.

Marco
23-04-2008, 23:44
What's with the hate post and the threats Marco ? why are you so angry suddenly ?


Because you're writing bollocks and it could easily mislead people who don't know any better. I will not tolerate that.

Please answer the question I asked you. You made this unbelievably ludicrous statement:


I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment


I would like to know how you think you know that for a FACT? Go on, make me laugh. Use my Spendors as an example. I would also like you to list exactly what you've listened to old and new to have arrived at this conclusion.

Marco.

jcbrum
23-04-2008, 23:48
No I'm not hen-pecked, my wife is very tolerant of "unusual objects" which I introduce into our home, but she does wish they were fewer and smaller.

We have discussed it half a dozen times in the last 40 years.

Marco
23-04-2008, 23:54
Are you blind?

That's not the question I've just highlighted above!

Marco.

jcbrum
24-04-2008, 00:00
It seems to me that you edited your post. I did not see the lower half previously. did you edit it, or did I miss it ?

Marco
24-04-2008, 00:05
Stop stalling and just answer the question I've highlighted.

Marco.

jcbrum
24-04-2008, 00:21
I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment.

Having looked back through the thread I assume this is what you are referring to.

Well for a start it's divided into two parts, hifi - meaning electronics, cdp's etc, and speakers.

Taking hifi first, the rate of development in digital electronics has been phenomenal, and has required a R&D budget only available to the big players. For an example a dac like this would have cost £1000 two or more years ago, but has recently been introduced at £60, and it does 24bit/192kHz at absolutely superb quality, not just 16/44 CD quality.

http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_europe/uk/30_computer_related_products/41_firewire_products/10_no_category/10_firewire_products/10_no_series/15_go44/index.html

It is part of my job to evaluate and compare units such as these when they become available.
Now onto speakers, and you asked me to specifically consider your SP100's. there is no doubt that they are fine loudspeakers. They are very large 3 way design costing £6k-£8k new today, and were originally designed about 30 years ago.

It isn't really fair to directly compare a large 3 way with a small 2 way like the adm9, which is what I think you want me to do but I will comment as follows (next post)

Marco
24-04-2008, 00:31
Taking hifi first, the rate of development in digital electronics has been phenomenal, and has required a R&D budget only available to the big players. For an example a dac like this would have cost £1000 two or more years ago, but has recently been introduced at £60, and it does 24bit/192kHz at absolutely superb quality, not just 16/44 CD quality. It is part of my job to evaluate and compare units such as these when they become available.


In real terms that means absolutely nothing. It most certainly does not prove as "fact" that modern equipment is automatically better. Tell me which actual CD players you've compared from both eras and describe why the most recently produced ones are in your opinion sonically superior. I don't care about specifications - it's sound quality that ultimately matters. Some (sensible and discerning) people like to *listen* to stuff before they buy it, you know. Specifications or measurements alone do not tell the whole story.


Now onto speakers, and you asked me to specifically consider your SP100's. there is no doubt that they are fine loudspeakers. They are very large 3 way design costing £6k-£8k new today, and were originally designed about 30 years ago.

It isn't really fair to directly compare a large 3 way with a small 2 way like the adm9, which is what I think you want me to do but I will comment as follows (next post)


Why is it not fair? You're desperately trying to backtrack and stop being made to look like a fool. Unfortunately for you, it's not working!

You made a ludicrous statement saying: "I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment."

There was no size or price of speaker stipulated. The "hi-fi" part of your statement is also as ludicrous. And who mentioned ADM9s? I certainly didn't!

So, JC, either ALL speakers made now of similar specifications are better than ALL speakers made more than a couple of years ago of similar specifications, or they're not.

Which is it?

Marco.

jcbrum
24-04-2008, 00:46
Loudspeakers are comprised of a crossover circuit containing high power inductors, capacitors, and resistors. It is not uncommonfor such a crossover to absorb 50% of the power of the amplifier driving it and interferes severely with the damping factor, or the "grip" that the amplifier has upon the loudspeaker.

The first improvement that could be made would be to eliminate the crossover and go for direct drive of the units by separate amplifiers, this could mean six amplifiers in a stereo 3 way pair.

The second improvement that could be made is by using newer designs of drive units which have a wider flatter frequency range than previous designs and lower distortion figures as well.

Improvements can be made in cabinet design, mostly in the cosmetic arena, (good for sales), but also the ability to use smaller cabs with better drivers to achieve similar sound.

So if we are to consider a modern version of your sp100's we would have something about the same size but now needing six powerful accurate low distortion amplifiers.

Also to replace the passive crossover we would need either an active analogue crossover or a digital one. modern designs of these, are again improvements on older designs due to the pace of development, based on R&D budget from the component suppliers.

We already have a very expensive unit costing at least twice the original design and whilst its better its also too expensive c. £16k-20k and so the numbers sold would make it a marginal commercial product.

What AVI have made with the adm9 is a two way speaker based on the above concepts and also including a dac and a two way remote control pre-amp with full analogue inputs at line level as well as s/pdif digital input for a cost of £1k.

That is a hell of an achievement and they are easily capable of out performing similar conventional two way designs of a similar size and cost.

If you want to directly compare your sp100's with adm9's then bring 'em with you.

Hope this helps but YMMV :)

Marco
24-04-2008, 00:51
More meaningless froth. Please answer the questions I asked you in my last post.

You are really trying my patience, JC, and the outcome for you isn't looking good!

Marco.

jcbrum
24-04-2008, 00:56
I haven't yet read you're last post Marco, I have been to busy typing my own posts which I put up in two parts.

I also have a long drive to make tomorrow with an early start, and since it is now 5 minutes before 2am I'm going to bed now.

I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow.

Regards JC. :)

Steve Toy
24-04-2008, 00:56
I think the ultimate scrutiny is the market place generally not just you Steve Toy.
You do seem remarkably biased steve, after all the products have been exhibited at bristol two years running and have gained wide sales approval and many testimonials, particularly from the more professional users,
It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them, particularly on this forum.
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

The market place is not the ultimate scrutiny for the discerning. Unfortunately the masses tend to buy what they are told to. This forum is being overrun with messages to go buy ADM9s.

How can I be biased? The prospect of selling my hi-fi for possibly well over £6000 (two items, a CD player and an amplifier of mine recently sold for £3000 between them), buying ADM9s and a suitable laptop for around £1500 all in, leaving me with over £4500 in the bank would be a very tempting proposition indeed if only this setup actually delivered the goods.

Unfortunately it doesn't. I only wish it did.

As a troll your hours on here are numbered. Note I said 'hours' not 'days.' If you wish to remain you'll have to re-register under, shall we say, a less provocative username and assume a more transparent persona like everyone else.

http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

Marco
24-04-2008, 01:01
I haven't yet read you're last post Marco, I have been to busy typing my own posts which I put up in two parts.

I also have a long drive to make tomorrow with an early start, and since it is now 5 minutes before 2am I'm going to bed now.

I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow.


Oh don't worry, we will - and we'll be getting to the bottom of your ridiculous statement one way or the other, and also getting Ashley to answer the questions he was asked earlier, too. You can count on it, my friend! ;)

Until tomorrow...

Marco.

Filterlab
24-04-2008, 08:02
...What AVI have made with the adm9 is a two way speaker based on the above concepts and also including a dac and a two way remote control pre-amp with full analogue inputs at line level as well as s/pdif digital input for a cost of £1k...

So tell me how they can possibly be better than a pair of speakers costing eight times more, or two times more, because at the moment I see a lot of nonsense being typed. If you think these speakers are better than my Revels you're more than welcome to try them back to back, but I'll tell you something, the Revels will completely and utterly destroy the ADMs in every way.

JC, you're a nice chap, but you must stop posting nonsensical sweeping statements that can't possibly hold merit. Just because hi-fi is new doesn't mean it's better. To draw a car analogy, a new Mondeo is never going to be as good as a three year old Bentley.

Marco
24-04-2008, 10:09
Indeed, Rob. Your Revels are another excellent example.

I'd just like to pick up on our friend "Psycho's" comment, as he's missed the point completely, probably deliberately:


It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them...


That's total bullshit. I think I can state categorically on behalf of anyone on this forum that before Ashley and JC arrived on the scene and started shoving ADM9s down people's throats no-one was "heavily prejudiced" against them. Personally, I hadn't even heard of them up until that point!

It's not a matter of being "heavily prejudiced" against the ADM9s, it's simply that they've been touted by Ashley and JC completely out of all sensible context!

I have no doubt that the ADM9s are professionally built, well-engineered products which perform to a high standard. I'm sure they might even outperform *some* more expensive designs. AVI have an long and established reputation for producing top quality equipment, indeed I'm a fan of pretty much all their older designs from CDPs to amps and speakers. I'm sure the Trios and their big monoblock amplifiers, for example, sound stunning.

BUT... And yes, there's a big BUT!!

It's when ADM9s are taken out of all sensible context and promoted ridiculously as 'the definitive loudspeaker' which so irks people here (and elsewhere), basically because it's utter nonsense. I don't think anyone is denying that ADM9s are a neat, cleverly designed, good sounding solution which offer superb value for money for people who don't want the clutter of separates, because that's what they are - nothing more.

If Ashley and JC had promoted them as such in the first place then no-one would have been "heavily prejudiced" against them. They would probably even had a few sales from people on forums, but it's all backfired spectacularly. Undoubtedly people are heavily prejudiced against them now, not because of what they do or what they represent, but because of the copious quantities of verbal diarrhoea spouted by their manufacturer and his sponsored mouthpiece. I think there's a real resentment now on forums towards AVI and its products for that reason. Marketing suicide at its very best.

Nice work, boys. Well done! :mental:

Marco.

anthonyTD
24-04-2008, 10:14
Indeed, Rob. Your Revels are another excellent example.

I'd just like to pick up on our friend "Psycho's" comment, as he's missed the point completely, probably deliberately:



That's total bullshit. I think I can state categorically on behalf of anyone on this forum that before Ashley and JC arrived on the scene and started shoving ADM9s down people's throats no-one was "heavily prejudiced" against them. Personally, I hadn't even heard of them up until that point!

It's not a matter of being "heavily prejudiced" against the ADM9s, it's simply that they've been touted by Ashley and JC completely out of all sensible context!

I have no doubt that the ADM9s are professionally built, well-engineered products which perform to a high standard. I'm sure they might even outperform *some* more expensive designs. AVI have an long and established reputation for producing top quality equipment, indeed I'm a fan of pretty much all their older designs from CDPs to amps and speakers. I'm sure the Trios and their big monoblock amplifiers, for example, sound stunning.

BUT... And yes, there's a big BUT!!

It's when ADM9s are taken out of all sensible context and promoted ridiculously as 'the definitive loudspeaker' which so irks people here (and elsewhere), basically because it's utter nonsense. I don't think anyone is denying that ADM9s are a neat, cleverly designed, good sounding solution which offer superb value for money for people who don't want the clutter of separates, because that's what they are - nothing more.

If Ashley and JC had promoted them as such in the first place then no-one would have been "heavily prejudiced" against them. Undoubtedly people are heavily prejudiced against them now, not because of what they do or what they represent, but because of the copious quantities of verbal diarrhoea spouted by their manufacturer and his sponsored mouthpiece.

Job done, boys. Well done! :mental:

Marco.

i second that;)

Filterlab
24-04-2008, 10:15
...It's when ADM9s are taken out of all sensible context and promoted ridiculously as 'the definitive loudspeaker' which so irks people here (and elsewhere), basically because it's utter nonsense. I don't think anyone is denying that ADM9s are a neat, cleverly designed, good sounding solution which offer superb value for money for people who don't want the clutter of separates, because that's what they are - nothing more.

That is exactly, 100%, precisely and wholely the thinking on here. Well said mate!

leo
24-04-2008, 10:41
Couldn't have put that better myself!

leo
24-04-2008, 10:54
I'm still on the look out for some standmount speakers, I'm not biased towards anything but from the brief encounter with the ADM9's they simply did nothing for me I'm afraid

Filterlab
24-04-2008, 11:19
Revels mate, you'll never go wrong with Revels. ;)

Marco
24-04-2008, 11:35
Guys,

I'm going to close this one now, as I think enough has been said on the subject. There are plenty of more things to talk about than ADM9s!

If Ashley or JC think they can contribute anything NEW to the discussion, and I stress NEW, not just more of the same old stuff, they can PM me with their relevant suggestions and if I consider it falls into the above category I will re-open the thread.

Thanks to all who contributed.

Marco.

Filterlab
24-04-2008, 11:37
Good call chief. :)