old Pioneer 112D turntable

[j.postema]

Hello,

last week I bought a cheap second hand Pioneer 112D turntable. I have already read a topic on this forum about this turntable and it seems not everyone likes the audio quality of this turntable. It will be my first turntable and I would like to start with an affordable turntable to see if I like it and later buy a higher quality one if needed.

The belt needs to be replaced but that will be an easy job; I'm wondering if the cartridge quality is OK or should I replace it? Is this turntable worth the investment of new parts?

The cartridge is a Shure M55e and if I'm correct is has a elliptical stylus. (I will check the stylus soon with a microscope)

A few photos of the turntable:

https://s10.postimg.org/vbm4m04u1/P1010212.jpg

https://s21.postimg.org/vhpkvomwn/P1010219.jpg

https://s18.postimg.org/thikcenah/P1010218.jpg

Regards

[walpurgis]

The PL-112D is perfectly alright for starting out with vinyl. I've had a couple of them.

They are a sight better than some of the new cheap turntables on the market.

The M55E is perfect for that arm. Just bung a new belt on, give the main bearing and motor bearing a drop of fine oil and away you go. Experimentation with alternative platter mats may benefit. Check the stylus with a microscope if you can.

[Arkless Electronics]

Do be aware if this is your first turntable that although vinyl can sound amazing it takes considerably more money to obtain excellent results from a TT than it does from CD. A budget CD player will thrash a budget TT arm and cartridge.

Cue the nay sayers who reckon even a BD1 with a ceramic cart beats any digital.... I disagree!

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Shure Cart is highly regarded in this forum. You might want to splash out £40 for a new stylus. I currently run a '55E on my Lenco and the sonics are sublime at the price point.

[j.postema]

Hello everyone,

thanks for your replies and suggestions. I bought the turntable mainly for look and feel, not because I expect equal or better audio quality than my (inexpensive) cd player and pc soundcard. It just attracts me - it looks nice in my opinion to see a mechanical device moving and playing audio.

I'm happy to read positive experiences of this turntable - at least I like the looks. I checked the stylus tonight and it seems worn / broken: it has a triangular shape but one side it has a "bite" i.e. material is missing.

I will lubricate the bearings, replace the worn belt and buy a new stylus. I will try to measure / check the cartridge too. As soon as it's cleaned I will put a photo online :)

[Floyddroid]

I was more of a Rotel fan myself. I had an RP1500 back in the mid seventies and it was astonishing.

[Paul-H]

I still have one of those 112D's having just replaced it with a Thorens 160.

The Thorens is said to be miles better and I am not qualified enough to say its not, but my hearing the quality jump is not enough to call it miles better. Although I have had the 112D since the 80's and am probably just used to how it sounds.

To me they are not as bad as some would paint them.

Paul

[walpurgis]

To me they are not as bad as some would paint them.

Paul

I was not aware that anybody regards these as 'bad'. The PL-112D is not 'bad'. It's a well made budget deck and sounds OK for what was its place in the market. It plays records perfectly decently. You'd not sensibly put it alongside expensive turntables for comparison. That would be unrealistic.

[Paul-H]

Unless some of the expensive ones turned out to not be as good as their price ticked should indicate, price does not automatically mean better. although obviously in many cases it does.

Price can often just reflect were a name is in the market and just because it has a well known name does not mean its any better than a less well known name. As can be often seen in the world of high value items, like Watches, high end Fountain pens, etc etc. Tommy Hilfiger watches might cost a lot more than Seiko, but I trust a watch make over a fashion house name any day. Its all down to persevered performance.

Still not saying the humble 112D is better than any of your super expensive turntables but the money needed to be spent to start to actually hear any improvement is quite high, almost exponential in relation to the often tiny sonic improvement. Not that I would expect anyone who just dropped 50 grand on a turntable to admit to though as no matter how much they spent and no matter how good it sounds the next upgrade which costs thousands would make so much difference, which as we all know is nonsense as at level improvements can only be tiny, but no one will admit to that will they.

Thats it

Tin Hat on :eyebrows:

[DSJR]

Bottom line from someone who was there selling this stuff - the M55E was dated even then, but seems to have a cachet as a funky beast here. The stylus in the OP's deck isn't an N55, but appears to be a 75 that's been shoehorned in! I have an M55E here with Ed Saunders stylus (the diamond is significantly better than the rough old nails Shure supplied at the time) and it sounds 'nice' to me, but glosses over quite a bit to be brutally honest.

Make sure the motor is well lubricated, as they (and also in the 12D) run very hot and the bearings dry out and can seize.

As Jez says above, it'll play records and in my experience of new ones, it will never offend...

[walpurgis]

the M55E was dated even then

That's true. The PL-112D entered the market around 1978 if I recall, superseding the PL-12D. The M55E was available probably a decade prior to that.

[struth]

Set up right the m55 with a good stylus is awsome. Might need a type of arm, i dont know, but it soulds bloody good on mine. Beat a mc25fl anyways. Gotta get the downforce right

[Barry]

Set up right the m55 with a good stylus is awsome. Might need a type of arm, I dont know, but it sounds bloody good on mine. Beat a mc25fl anyways. Gotta get the downforce right

Interesting - I'll have to do the comparison myself with mine.

[j.postema]

Hello,

after visiting my local audio shop today I have even more questions... :rolleyes:

At the local audio shop I asked for a Shure M55e replacement stylus. They recommended to buy a new Audio Technica cartrdige (with stylus) because it's only 20 dollars more expensive than a new M55e replacement stylus and the Audio Technica cartridge is more modern / better sound quality. I'm wondering if this is true: are those new cartriges creating better audio compared to the 30 - 40 year old Sure cartridge? Is there really improvement in newer cartriges compared to older ones?

Regards, Johan.

[narabdela]

The M55e is a gem that will leave most Audio Technica MM's for dead. Get a new stylus for it. Do some research on ideal set-up, (there's plenty on here), and enjoy.

[Sherwood]

I would think longer term. The Pioneer deck was the entry point for decent sound some 40 years ago. If you are investing in a turntable for the first time you will probably have no vinyl collection of any size. This means you will be spending a lot on buying new and/or cleaning old vinyl. I would suggest that the Pioneer may be a false economy if you wish to get a good quality sound from that investment.

Sound quality may not be your top priority, but I would worry about the wear and tear on a deck which I suspect has not been serviced (lubricated) since being made. I wonder if that many Pioneer owners realised that the bearing needed oil. The fact that a mismatched stylus has been "wedged" into the cartridge body would worry me even more.

Bottom line: cheapest is not always the best investment.

Geoff

[walpurgis]

The Pioneer deck was the entry point for decent sound some 40 years ago.

And still is.

If it's not worn out. And the majority of PL-112D and PL-12D turntables seem to just go on running, with a new belt every few years and a drop of oil.

The cartridge is not much of an issue. A replacement stylus or whole cartridge is easy enough to deal with.

[Paul-H]

It might have been an entry point deck when it came out and it might still be an entry point deck but it still produced a high quality sound

It will not damage any record played on it as long as the stylus is in good condition and the dec/tonearm is correctly set.

Just because its low cost does not make it not good. after all how much better than a £5000 Linn LP12 can a £120,000 Onedof Turntable be. I bet its only minimally better, unless you were the one who dropped over a hundred grand on it, then it would be miles better wouldn't it.

Sound quality is subjective so you just might find the 112D is good enough for your listening pleasures. dont get caught up in the upgrade path until absolutely necessary as the upgrade path often only leads to disappointment and even more money.

Remember No one will admit to a costly upgrade that did nothing to improve things, just read some of the claims on these forum and sometimes you just think "Miles Better " I bet

Enjoy what you have before thinking about any changes.

Paul

[Sherwood]

I remember the 112D very well. A friend bought one as part of a system with Cambridge A60 and AR speakers. I cannot recall the cartridge but I found the system to lack detail and any real bass extension. I was still using a Rega 3 at the time (pre RB300 arm) and the difference in sound was night and day. I realise that the RP3 is much more expensive these days but I recently heard a demo of a Project Elemental whilst I was shopping for a new music streamer. If I recall this was 150 quid with a pretty decent Ortofon cartridge. It sounded excellent and was probably as good as the Rega 3 from nearly 40 years ago. My point is that once the owner has bought a new cartridge and belt, the marginal costs of the Project are probably minimal.

I am not saying that vintage gear can never be a bargain. I still have my original Rogers LS35a speakers from nearly 40 years ago, and an Art Audio Quintet valve amp from over 25 years back and I deeply regret parting with my Rogers Cadet III which I bought for 12 quid from an ad in Exchange & Mart back in the late 70s. However, the 112D was only OK not great and not as good as the earlier model. Maybe at 30 quid it is worth a punt, but as an old mechanical device I would be wary of any purchase.

Geoff

[j.postema]

Hi, I finally decided to order a new stylus and belt. I ordered at mantra audio, it seems they have good support and they told me the stylus is of good quality. I didn't test my Shure M55e cartridge so I have to see if everything will be okay but at least there seems to be some progress with the turntable project :)

I was questioning myself if I should buy a completely new cartridge + stylus like the local audio shop adviced, but as I'm curious how the old Shure M55e cartridge will sound I decided to check that first. I can always supplement with an extra cartridge later on, if I want.

It's no big deal if audio quality of this turntable isn't very good, at least I want to check it myself. It's the process that I like: starting with simple and cheap parts. If I don't like the audio quality I will see if I want to buy another turntable. There are a lot of opinions and options so it's a bit of trail and error. But I enjoy the process!

[walpurgis]

Hi, I finally decided to order a new stylus and belt. I ordered at mantra audio, it seems they have good support and they told me the stylus is of good quality. I didn't test my Shure M55e cartridge so I have to see if everything will be okay but at least there seems to be some progress with the turntable project :)

I was questioning myself if I should buy a completely new cartridge + stylus like the local audio shop adviced, but as I'm curious how the old Shure M55e cartridge will sound I decided to check that first. I can always supplement with an extra cartridge later on, if I want.

It's no big deal if audio quality of this turntable isn't very good, at least I want to check it myself. It's the process that I like: starting with simple and cheap parts. If I don't like the audio quality I will see if I want to buy another turntable. There are a lot of opinions and options so it's a bit of trail and error. But I enjoy the process!

.

I think you will be pleased Johan.

It's unlikely that the Shure body will be defective, even if the wrong stylus was fitted. They are pretty robust. Anyway, M55 bodies are not hard to find, unlike decent styli.

Keep us informed as to how you get on with it all


(ignore the edit line on your last post, I hit the wrong button :))

[Geoff101]

One thing to check - every PL-112D that I've had (several) has had knackered suppression caps on the on / off switch. This will result in a loud 'crack' through the speakers when switched on or off.
They use old Rifa capacitors which have almost always broken down by now. I think I've got a box full of replacement capacitors if you need some.

Decent sounding deck for their price point though. To my ears, no worse than the PL-12D it replaced (although not nearly as nicely built) and doesn't tend to suffer the motor hum that most 12Ds have.

[j.postema]

Hi everyone,

it has been a while since my last post here but in the meantime I bought a new stylus together with a new belt and replaced both parts. I did some cleaning and tested the turntable. It instantly worked (I was a little surprised:) ) but sound quality was just bad, not convincing. It lacked stereo imaging and quality. I discovered that the tone arm lift didn't work so I had a look at a technical drawing in the manual and I adjusted the height of the part where the tone arm-resting-platform is attached. (I don't know the right name of these parts). This didn't help as the vertical cylinder moved downwards. I opened the case and discovered a broken plastic part, it's the part that lifts the part on which the tone arm rests. It was a metal part connected to a plastic part and it was loose. After assembling it again the tone arm works fine!

But sound quality is still not convincing. It depends on the record, but even the best sounding record still sounds very average. It has stereo imaging and some parts of the record sound nice, but overall I think there is something wrong. I'm wondering what it could be: the cartridge, the (probably) cheap build-in phono pre-amp in my integrated amplifier, cartridge alignment?

[walpurgis]

I'm wondering what it could be: the cartridge, the (probably) cheap build-in phono pre-amp in my integrated amplifier, cartridge alignment?

Those are definitely worth looking at.

Do you have another cartridge you could try for a comparison?

The sound from the PL-112D should be pleasant enough, so something is not quite right yet.

[j.postema]

Those are definitely worth looking at.

Do you have another cartridge you could try for a comparison?

The sound from the PL-112D should be pleasant enough, so something is not quite right yet.

Thanks for your reply, that's a good idea to compare to a different cartridge. Tomorrow I will visit a friend and I will bring my turntable with me so we can test it on his system and he also has a different cartridge and different phono amp so I think we should be able to find out what's wrong!

[j.postema]

Hello finally the turntable sounds good. I think it was the extra sub weight removal (which was connected to the counter weight) that did the trick. I just listened to one record, and I think it sounds nice, I definitely enjoy it :)

By the way, it seems that the vertical tracking angle is not perfect, the head shell tails down a little. When I remove the mat the cartridge is parallel to the platter, but there is no audible difference. (there is no adjustment option on this turntable if I'm correct)

Now I will look for a separate phono pre-amp so I can use my preferred amplifier.

[walpurgis]

Yes. I think you are correct in that there's no arm height adjustment and it is good to get the VTA as accurate as possible..

However, cartridges do vary in their body depth. The Shures are moderately tall. But vintage M, VMS and FF series Ortofon cartridges are shallower and could correct the height discrepancy. Good used examples are common. I dare say members here may have some if you asked.

Buying cartridges need not be too expensive. Remember that they are easy to sell on again (assuming good condition), so you tend to get your money back.

[j.postema]

Hi thanks for your suggestion of using a shallower cartridge to correct the height discrepancy. Would the Shure N55e stylus be compatible with for instance the mentioned Ortofon cartridges?

I just ordered a cheap Chinese tracking force gauge (http://www.dx.com/p/digital-precision-scale-with-leather-case-5g-max-0-01g-resolution-16269), just to check if the tracking force is set properly.

[walpurgis]

Would the Shure N55e stylus be compatible with for instance the mentioned Ortofon cartridges?

No. Styli are not generally 'swappable' between makes (there are exceptions). However, should you obtain an Ortofon and find it suits your needs. You would have no trouble selling the Shure cartridge or the stylus.

[j.postema]

Ok I think I will try some different cartridges in future. Just two pictures of the turntable with new stylus:

https://s18.postimg.org/cq317h0fp/P1010143.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/cq317h0fp/)

https://s18.postimg.org/j2i6hb3hx/P1010144.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/j2i6hb3hx/)

[walpurgis]

Looks just fine. They are nice to use.

[j.postema]

Hi,

I just visited my friend and we compared my Pioneer turntable with the Sure M55e cartridge to his JBSystems T3 d.j. turntable which has a Audio Technica AT3600L 9506 MM-cartridge. (if I'm correct). His turntable weighs more and feels solid, but the tone arm feels plastic and cheapish, the Pioneer arm is much heavier. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing. I think the JBSystems costed about 200 euro's so not so expensive in my opinion. But it sounded better than my Pioneer which I wouldn't suspect. But I alread had that idea, and that idea is confirmed by comparing the two turntables last night.

Although the combination of cartridge, cables and phono amp (capacitance / inductance) will definitely effect performance, I get the idea that the Audio Technica is mainly accountable for the better sound quality of the JBSystems turntable. First I compared both turntables and after that I swapped the head shell + cartridges. After I assembled the Audio Technica cartridge on my Pioneer turntable it sounded much better. I had the idea the cartridge on the JBSystems turntable souded slightly better, but I'm not sure if this is true as it's difficult to compare if there is some time between switching / connecting everything.

I also bough a cheap phono-pre-amp and tested both on this pre-amp and on his integrated phono input / amp on his receiver. It seems the Audio Technica cartridge with stylus is only 39,00 euro's so I'm surprised how such a budget cartrige sounds better than my old Sure cartridge. The Sure lacks high frequencies and sounds dull compared to the AT.

Another thing I discovered is that the new phono pre-amp (MM and MC) with build in RIAA equalizer together with a heavier Harmann Kardon amp sounds worse than without this separate phono amp on the built in phono amp on the cheaper Denon amp. I have to find out what is the cause of this, the dedicated phono amp sounded better on my turntable when I tested it on my friends amp.

So lots of new questions and experiences! :) Would modern, even cheap, cartridges like the AT sound better compared to old cartridges? Or could it be wear (I can't imagine that as it's just coils?)

And is my idea true that mainly the cartridge in a turntable system is responsible for total sound quality of the system?

Regards Johan.

[walpurgis]

With turntables, there tends to be a rule that the heavier they are the better they may sound.

The Shure M55E will sound less forward than the Audio Technica. This is not necessarily a bad thing though. I have found Audio Technica cartridges can sound impressive on first listening, but tending towards tiresome after a while. This is of course a generalisation and some AT cartridges are very fine. The M55E is a well respected cartridge. The sound you get from either cartridge will of course depend on the turntable and the rest of the system.

Denon amps are known for having pretty decent phono stages. And, cheap phono stages are generally a disapointment. All modern phono stages will have RIAA equalisation. They would basically be unusable with modern records otherwise.

[j.postema]

Hi,

it seems that at other places people share the same opinion about the Shure cartridge so I suppose it's not the cartdige that's responsible for the low sound quality. In my opinion the sound was of low quality and not because of personal preference. At vinylengine.com a few people suggested it could be the stylus that is responsible for the low sound quality. As it is a Swiss stylus it could be a Pfanstiehl stylus that has patchy reputation.

So I think I will just buy a new cartridge + stylus to compare. That will solve my VTA problem as well. :)