View Full Version : Dynamic range in your listening room
This may not be the best place to air this thought, but does your choice of listening room in your house affect your listening pleasure?
I started my HIFI journey with Linn/Naim/LS3/5a. Hearing a brass band in the open air in Huddersfield one Xmas showed me how wrong my choices were... For years afterwards, I chased ever more powerful amplifiers to extend my system dynamic range upwards. In recent years, I wondered if the real benefits were in reducing the noise floor of the listening environment? I know most of AOS readership are focussed on rock type music, where the overall DR might not be as critical an issue, but I would be interested to see some debate on quiet v noisy listening rooms...
Rgds
Mark
Good question Mark.
Listening room can of course make a difference, when you say noise floor though, do you mean electrical noise or ambient sounds in the listening room?
Agree that dynamic range can be whats missing from hifi systems compared to "real" music.
Different ways to get there, for myself its valves and very efficient wide bandwidth speakers.
I listen to a wide range of music from close miked acoustic stuff, blues, orchestral and loud rock, and weirdly Ive found dynamic range is more important for realism in the quieter stuff.
Valves help here too. 😆
RobbieGong
16-09-2016, 17:31
Interesting thread Mark. The affect of rooms on the sound or sonics does come up from time to time.
Rooms definitely have an effect on the overall sound to a lesser degree or not.
Some rooms can create what I'd call an echoey platform. Some rooms with carpet, lots of furniture and lots of soft furnishings etc may well go the other way.
My guess is that it's the extremes that cause issue and probably because they can take a lot of fiddling and experimenting to tame, just my tuppence worth :)
Good question Mark.
Listening room can of course make a difference, when you say noise floor though, do you mean electrical noise or ambient sounds in the listening room?
Agree that dynamic range can be whats missing from hifi systems compared to "real" music.
Different ways to get there, for myself its valves and very efficient wide bandwidth speakers.
I listen to a wide range of music from close miked acoustic stuff, blues, orchestral and loud rock, and weirdly Ive found dynamic range is more important for realism in the quieter stuff.
Valves help here too. 😆
I really mean the ambient noise... I abandoned valve amplifiers because of their inherent high noise floor.. ( I appreciate things might have changed now, but I'm a long way down the solid state route now..)I'm absolutely sure that you are correct in identifying DR as being more important in "Acoustic" (i.e., the quieter stuff!) music than Rock, due to the compression of modern Rock recordings. I have an LP of Johnny Winter (2nd Winter) where the recording was extended onto 3 LP sides. I'm sure that the cd version isn't as dynamic...
For example, if my normal listening room (at the front of the house) is 10db noisier than the dining room at the back of the house, I’d need a 2.5kw amplifier to maintain the same dynamic range in the front room as in the dining room…
There are obvious caveats around maximum levels etc, but I feel that music sounds better, despite the size difference and the lack of treatment in the dining room…
Maybe I need different room treatment at the front? :-)
What do you think?
10 dB is a lot so I can't see there being that much difference between your two rooms.
Also I'm thinking that with dynamic range what you lose at the bottom isn't as important as what you lose at the top. If the system can't scale those peaks without either amp or speakers starting to struggle that matters more than a triangle being a little more submerged in the sound than it should be. At least to me, anyway,
Getting my room double glazed helped a lot, though. fairly quiet street but the ambient noise of the city was always present, the double glazing shuts it out quite effectively. Should imagine most people have double glazed windows nowadays, unless they live in a listed building.
The only thing that bothers me about recordings with a high DR is that the peaks might be a bit much for my neighbours. Was playing Marillion's 'Clutching At Straws' the other night, which is one of those quite rare dynamic rock recordings where you have to bang it up to properly hear the quite bits, so when it goes FFF the sound is enormous and I get a bit concerned.
I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, and I'm fortunate in living in an isolated and very quiet rural spot (except when the combines/tractors/sprayers/seed drills are operating!). I find even the very quiet cooling fan on my laptop can detract from listening enjoyment. The point about, say, a string quartet is that it's not very loud in terms of orchestra-sized dynamics. So the ability to hear the very quietest passage without having to crank up the volume is important . If you try to defeat ambient noise with increased sound levels chamber music soon starts to sound unreal. I don't know what the answer is - not an anechoic chamber certainly, even if you could afford it. Perhaps really good headphones, but that's a whole other can of worms.
The only thing that bothers me about recordings with a high DR is that the peaks might be a bit much for my neighbours. Was playing Marillion's 'Clutching At Straws' the other night, which is one of those quite rare dynamic rock recordings where you have to bang it up to properly hear the quite bits, so when it goes FFF the sound is enormous and I get a bit concerned.
I'd be more concerned about listening to Marillion. Seriously, though, I've found the answer is to listen 'near field'. That way I can listen at quite high levels without disturbing the neighbours. Not that I listen to much loud music these days; mostly chamber and solo piano classical music.
10 dB is a lot so I can't see there being that much difference between your two rooms.
Also I'm thinking that with dynamic range what you lose at the bottom isn't as important as what you lose at the top. If the system can't scale those peaks without either amp or speakers starting to struggle that matters more than a triangle being a little more submerged in the sound than it should be. At least to me, anyway,
Getting my room double glazed helped a lot, though. fairly quiet street but the ambient noise of the city was always present, the double glazing shuts it out quite effectively. Should imagine most people have double glazed windows nowadays, unless they live in a listed building.
You're right! 10 db is a lot. :) I was using that as an example to make my arithmetic easier! :) The dining room IS significantly quite though. My iPhone doesn't have an averaging db meter, but just watching the display for 30 seconds in each room tends to suggest 5-6db quieter on average with indeed a 10db difference on peak... That's on a quiet Saturday morning without much traffic and no-one else in the house.
I find that my speakers kind of 'overdrive' the room when played too loudly, so there is a limit to how loud I can play comfortably. I suppose it is this that imposes my upper limit and therefore makes a quieter room more desirable for me. My iPhone tells me that I listen with an average level of about 85-90db. The noise floor in the front room is about 60db. I don't think the transient peaks will be a problem for either the loudspeaker or the amplifier.
I'm wondering if the difference in listening pleasure between the two rooms is because the average playback level is much lower? I can't say I listen critically in the back room (I call it a dining room, but it's essentially a junk room! :) ), but music is more relaxed and enjoyable... Of course, it might be just that the system in there is better and all my priorities are all wrong (Again!)
Heigh ho... Sorry for the prolix post, but I'm finding the whole issue both interesting and complicated!
I listen to a lot of classical chamber music, I find even the very quiet cooling fan on my laptop can detract from listening enjoyment. The point about, say, a string quartet is that it's not very loud in terms of orchestra-sized dynamics. So the ability to hear the very quietest passage without having to crank up the volume is important . If you try to defeat ambient noise with increased sound levels chamber music soon starts to sound unreal.
I, too listen to chamber music. I find it easier to get an acceptable sound for small acoustical forces, partly, I think because the spaces in which you listen live tend do be more intimate than say, a large concert hall... Although the absolute sound level might be quite high, because of your closeness to the performance, the recorded music illusion is somehow more believable... I think the same is true of piano music, but the dynamics involved can be a challenge! :) Maybe the other issue is that everyone knows what a piano CAN sound like and music systems rarely deliver anything convincing! Or, at least, mine don't! YMMV!
The amount of furnishings etc per room will make a big difference as well to the sound, as will actual usable volume of room. I stay in a relatively quiet place, even at peak times and it doesnt make a huge difference to db what time of day, but today the bavkground is about 40db....unless i breathe lol
I did a test once and found my comfort zone was about 85/95 db for loud and a bit less, although not much sounded fairly quiet...say 10 db at that level... it is interesting how it takes a lot to increase the level when you get up the scale, and how ones breathing can push it up 10db at low levels.
RobbieGong
17-09-2016, 10:04
The amount of furnishings etc per room will make a big difference as well to the sound, as will actual usable volume of room. I stay in a relatively quiet place, even at peak times and it doesnt make a huge difference to db what time of day, but today the bavkground is about 40db....unless i breathe lol
I did a test once and found my comfort zone was about 85/95 db for loud and a bit less, although not much sounded fairly quiet...say 10 db at that level... it is interesting how it takes a lot to increase the level when you get up the scale, and how ones breathing can push it up 10db at low levels.
Deep ! :D
I average about 75db for listening but that is measured 20' from the speakers. 85dB at listening position is high, on peaks that is going to be almost 100dB! That's getting to pneumatic drill levels.
I've measured the background noise level in my room and it varies around 25 to 30 dB which is pretty low for an urban environment. That was in the day, with my noisier set of neighbours out.
All measurements were made using a phone so not calibrated or anything, but it gives an idea. I don't do classical but I do have some simple acoustic jazz recordings that need banging up a little to get the full flavour. What annoys me most is wankers who park up right outside in their diesels, running the engines for no good reason when I'm trying to listen. That doesn't happen often, though.
Yeag well its an iphone app, although a decent one, its no calibrated. Just an idea of levels. 90/95 peaks and 80/85 on ave, (some music is nearer peaks than others of course)although even though its super quiet here my background noise is a lot noisier than yours, which suggests a calibration problem with yours, mine or both.also my hearing levels wont be as good as im older and have tinnitus from an industrial accident
Maybe but I'm not sure. Here, unless a car goes past, it is completely quiet.
I average about 75db for listening but that is measured 20' from the speakers. 85dB at listening position is high, on peaks that is going to be almost 100dB! That's getting to pneumatic drill levels.
I've measured the background noise level in my room and it varies around 25 to 30 dB which is pretty low for an urban environment. That was in the day, with my noisier set of neighbours out.
All measurements were made using a phone so not calibrated or anything, but it gives an idea. I don't do classical but I do have some simple acoustic jazz recordings that need banging up a little to get the full flavour. What annoys me most is wankers who park up right outside in their diesels, running the engines for no good reason when I'm trying to listen. That doesn't happen often, though.
I might give a significant portion of my left arm to be able to get 20' away from my loudspeakers! :)
25-30db is an incredibly low figure for a domestic room. I'm with Grant here.. some issue with measurement. If your error is (say) -20db, that would put your listening levels louder than mine...
A chart giving the various levels of db here... its got lowest level of urban as 40db.. breathing is 10db... my meter was going up by 10db when i breathed lol. I must turn down the volume
http://www.industrialnoisecontrol.com/comparative-noise-examples.htm
That's an interesting table!
I'm sat in my front room at the moment and the loudest thing is the ringing in my ears and the dog licking itself...:lol: .
My iPhone says peaks of 62db!
I guess my ears are failing, along with everything else! A few weeks ago I played a 15khz tone through my loudspeakers and got very concerned that they were faulty. I tried another pair and they were faulty too! The eventual truth was, of course that the speaker are fine, my ears are not!
Why do I bother???:lol::lol::lol:
Simon_LDT
17-09-2016, 12:17
Damn, looks like we're gonna have to hold our breath when critical listening. :scratch:
I dread to think what the ambient noise is in my listening room...
According to the chart 'quiet rural area' can be 30dB, so I don't think It impossible that I'm close to that, it will be an outdoor measurement don't forget, inside a house, with double glazing and all portals close it must knock 10 dB or so off that.
Rothchild
17-09-2016, 12:44
The room is directly coupled to the speakers (via the air) so yes it matters, a lot.
Also one shouldn't claim 10dB lounder without having specified which scale and weighting one is using, otherwise the measure is pretty meaningless, more info here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/decibel-d_59.html
A good way of understanding dynamic range and the effects of over mastering in recordings is to calibrate your room to a reference SPL using a known sources, there's a good guide to setting up for 'K20' here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/648559-bob-katzs-k-system-nuts-n-bolts.html
Arkless Electronics
17-09-2016, 13:05
I wouldn't trust those SPL meter applications (I hate "apps"!) to be even anywhere close to the real sound level.. forget it! I once measured the background noise in a noisy pub as 107dB and although noisy it was a long way off that!
No pleasing some folk lol. Its just an idicationasfar as im concered.. the meter can be adjusted for different things of course. Listening to the radio paradise via chromecadt at an ave of 73 ... not what i call loud but fine for me. Louder i,d say than a diner or pub most times.
I just tested my room and it comes in at around 13-17 with nothing playing 😉
I need to wait for the boss to wake up ( she's ill in bed ) to test it at my rock level lol
I just tested my room and it comes in at around 13-17 with nothing playing ��
I need to wait for the boss to wake up ( she's ill in bed ) to test it at my rock level lol
You are more than likely dead at those levels mike:lol: and kirkaldy has been nuked
kirkcaldy has been nuked
Lol that might be a bonus, saves dad's taxi coming out tonight lol
Rothchild
19-09-2016, 18:55
No pleasing some folk lol. Its just an idicationasfar as im concered.. the meter can be adjusted for different things of course. Listening to the radio paradise via chromecadt at an ave of 73 ... not what i call loud but fine for me. Louder i,d say than a diner or pub most times.
Hmm, maybe although on my (non-app) dB meter the reading shifts about by up to 12dB just by switching between the A/C weighting and playing with the speed (broadly RMS or Peak sensitivity) so it we're all comparing what how quiet our rooms are and how loud we like to listen it is actually valid to point out that we should at least all be talking about the same thing.
This is quite a good read if you want to dig in to understanding the use (or lack of use) of dynamic range, the relationship with reference SPL levels etc. I think it should certain be of interest to those setting up home cinema rigs as it provides some insight in to how it's done in the movie industry. http://www.digido.com/how-to-make-better-recordings-part-2.html
fatmarley
19-09-2016, 21:40
I was getting an ambient SPL reading of 45 to 50db in my room today. That's with a calibrated microphone.
Rothchild
20-09-2016, 15:56
In my quiet conservatory using a dedicated dB meter (a 'Precision Gold N05CC') I get
Fast/Lo/A weighting: 33dB
Fast/Lo/C weighting: 50dB
Slow/Lo/A weighting: 10dB
Slow/Lo/C weighting: 52dB
Which is just an indication that different settings on your meter will yield different results. Of course if you're only comparing with your own preferences and references then it doesn't matter but when we're comparing between us it's helpful to all be using the same measurement.
Isn't this interesting? It would be nice to find a common denominator that we could all use for comparison...
I have a ratshack meter, a calibrated microphone (but no idea how to make it effective), and an iPhone with an app...
I guess the lowest common denominator will be the iPhone App, but how to calibrate it?
?
I don't think you can calibrate it but I guess if we were all using the same phone and app it would be directly comparable. Or would it?
Rather listen to music me'sel... :eek:
Rothchild
20-09-2016, 17:46
Well the first port of call would be simply to play with the settings on the phone app to ensure you know what you're reporting (it's pretty standard for meters to have A and C weightings (adjusts for frequency response) and Fast and Slow response times (peak vs 'average' levels)
I would suggest that for a subjectivist forum the likely differences between different mics in mobile phones is largely irrelevant (as is calibration), it's the settings what matter (because they're liable to producing significant differences in the numbers and therefore significant confusion about who's got what).
Rothchild
20-09-2016, 17:56
I don't have an iphone but this app has a clear A/C weighting switch: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ue-spl/id332300068?mt=8
Think that's the one I'm using.
Has 2 settings and 2 colours
Rothchild
20-09-2016, 18:33
Think that's the one I'm using.
Has 2 settings and 2 colours
My normal suspicion would be that changing the colour wouldn't effect the readings, but round here anything is possible ;-)
it has in your face blue or dark n moody red;)
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