My "REAL SOUND" experiment.

[Wakefield Turntables]

So, I very rarely believe in the hype that most cable companies spin nowadays and generally buy products that have been road tested by fellow Audiophiles. I've recently found Jeff's place over at www.jeffsplace.me and have been following his posts. I decided that I too would try the "real sound" experiment. Sourcing some of the cables is a real bugger and can be expensive. So you will need the following

Duelund DCA16GA speaker cable - Mine came from the USA
Belden 8402 microphone cable - Mine came from POLAND!
Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA’s - Mine came from the UK

I would strongly recommend you read Geoff's posts if you wish to participate. I've been using the Duelund DCA16GA for about 20 hours now and need about 100 hours usage before a so called "transformation" occurs. I will be making the Belden/Switchcraft IC's tomorrow when I have a little time.

[YNWaN]

He seems very keen on Duelund in general.


100% Analogue

[Barry]

All that banging on about "tone", reminds me of what people used to say about a new radiogram: "It's got a nice tone"!

Typical enthusiast’s blog - self indulgent and boring.

[Wakefield Turntables]

All that banging on about "tone", reminds me of what people used to say about a new radiogram: "It's got a nice tone"!

Typical enthusiast’s blog - self indulgent and boring.

Oh dear!

[Macca]

A blog, by it's very nature, is self-indulgent. The bloke's got good taste in speakers, at least give him that ;)

[sq225917]

Lol, people who can, do, and those who can't swap cables. Save your money Andy...

[Wakefield Turntables]

Lol, people who can, do, and those who can't swap cables. Save your money Andy...

:lol: I needed a spare set of speaker cables anyway I have 5 pairs of speakers sitting in the listening room at the moment with only one pair of speaker cables, so why not try something different. It's not actually all that bad. ;)

[petrat]

Well ... anyway, I'll be interested in your findings, Andy :D

[brian2957]

Well ... anyway, I'll be interested in your findings, Andy :D

+1 (:

[Pete The Cat]

Interesting to see some classic British kit in among the usual American stuff.

Typical enthusiast’s blog - self indulgent and boring.

Unfortunately I don't think self-indulgent comes close. This blog makes Dr Frasier Crane seem humble and unpretentious, the pieces about him drinking his obscurista coffee in the morning are :spew:

Pete

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks to Brian I have have some ICs made up to start this fun experiment. I must admit I'm very sceptical and Jeff the chap that inspired this seems to excessively eulogise DUelund products, but this is just for fun. I'll post some pix over the next few days.

[Reffc]

Lol, people who can, do, and those who can't swap cables. Save your money Andy...

+1

except that in this instance, at least it won't be wasted and it sounds like cables aren't the thing that you're really short of.....a few extra rooms to house your growing 'speaker collection seem to be where the real need is at!:lol:


A Blog's a blog's a blog and people are free to write whatever they like. "Salt" and "Pinch of" are words that spring to mind (being very kind) in this particular case ;)

As for the 100 hours thing for the cable to mysteriously change it's physical properties in some magical way....well, the less said, the better really :sofa::ner:

[Wakefield Turntables]

+1

except that in this instance, at least it won't be wasted and it sounds like cables aren't the thing that you're really short of.....a few extra rooms to house your growing 'speaker collection seem to be where the real need is at!:lol:


A Blog's a blog's a blog and people are free to write whatever they like. "Salt" and "Pinch of" are words that spring to mind (being very kind) in this particular case ;)

As for the 100 hours thing for the cable to mysteriously change it's physical properties in some magical way....well, the less said, the better really :sofa::ner:

Paul,

I honestly think it's a load of shit what he claims bit it's a little bit of fun really and I totally agree with you and Simon with your comments especially about the physical properties of the cables. Should prove a good laugh to the lads & lasses on AOS. I'm not taking this too seriously :)

[Gordon Steadman]

I took one look at the Blog and switched off. Can't stand white text on a black background. man obviously has no taste so no point in reading further:eyebrows:

[danilo]

There seems to be (still?) an entire mindset that equates Price with quality: 'Mo' $ means Better'...well dohhh.
PT Barnum had it right.
Son once wanted to sell a car that he was tired of.
He priced it fairly for a quick sale... there were Zero responses to his advert.
Suggested he double the price.
Very next day there was a bidding war.
Everybody was happy :rolleyes:

[Gordon Steadman]

Did look a bit before my eyes cried enough. Just one look at all the crud he needs in order to listen to music and it's obvious we live in different worlds. he is a hi-fi fan first and foremost and has bought into every bit of snake oil imaginable.

Cable cookers - good grief:doh:

[sq225917]

Andy, im teasing a little, I use silver foil in silk for my speaker cables.

[walpurgis]

I have more than enough leads of all types at the moment. But I tend to make my own from good quality cable. To be honest, if I want more, I'll likely be using Cardas or Audio Note offerings for interconnects and Transparent Audio for speaker cables. These are a known quantity to me and provide excellent sound quality. Yes, I know their upper end stuff has loony prices. I use the sensibly priced wire.

[struth]

I have more than enough leads of all types at the moment. But I tend to make my own from good quality cable. To be honest, if I want more, I'll likely be using Cardas or Audio Note offerings for interconnects and Transparent Audio for speaker cables. These are a known quantity to me and provide excellent sound quality. Yes, I know their upper end stuff has loony prices. I use the sensibly priced wire.

got any old long centre rca plugs:eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

got any old long centre rca plugs:eyebrows:

Just had a look. Can't see any. They do show up on eBay though.

I may have some seventies leads with those on in the workshop. If I get a chance tomorrow, I'll take a look. If I can find them and if there actually are any. :)

[struth]

cheers, ive none that I can see. had some but must have been used on something i no longer have. Can use the normal ones but its a bit tight.

[walpurgis]

Just had a look at vintage phono plugs on ebay. There are some, but prices are daft!

[struth]

Just had a look at vintage phono plugs on ebay. There are some, but prices are daft!

lol....

sorry for the thread drift...cheers geoff

[Wakefield Turntables]

Guys, please note this thead is for FUN and is a small distraction away from my main project over on the Lenco 75 restoration thread whilst I wait for the various parts to arrive. I've some pictures organised and I'll get a full "lash-up" list posted when I have a little time, can't do it tonight cos I'm off to the pub. :cool: Suffice to say I'm having a quick listen now on my JR149's a completely unmolested sub 2500 pair and the midrange sounds sublime and that's from a dodgy CD that a patient gave me!

[brian2957]

Is that with the new interconnects in Andy ?

[Reffc]

Paul,

I honestly think it's a load of shit what he claims bit it's a little bit of fun really and I totally agree with you and Simon with your comments especially about the physical properties of the cables. Should prove a good laugh to the lads & lasses on AOS. I'm not taking this too seriously :)

I know that Andy; there's a slight case of pulling your leg a bit. ;)....sorry, couldn't help it! :lolsign:

That chap's site seems very odd to navigate and I guess it's unsurprising that it might attract a bit of negative attention. As someone said, lashing loads of expensive bits together a good sound doesn't guarantee. Design and execution matter, not the price of the bits or name dropping Dueland at every opportunity. Afraid, I lost interest when I saw some cable lifters in the picture :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right now my young sprog has gone to bed I can tell you a little more about the lash-up system

Pre-Amp - ATC SCA 2
Power Amp - Quad 405 -2 (Fully NET audio modded with tweaks from Nick Gorham)
CD Player - A very very heavily modded Teac VRDS25X
DAC - Caiman SEG
IC's - Belden 8402 microphone cable with Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA’s (made to "Jeffs" formulation)
Speaker Cable - Duelund DCA16GA
Stands - Homemade from bits of Birchplay & 2x4 wood !!!!!
Speakers - JR149's (unmodded original's from the 70's)!!
Power - PS Audio P10 + homemade Belden screened power leads

I've got the JR149's toed in quite markedly about 1m awat from the back wall and about 50cm's away from the sides and I'm about 2m away. Soundstage is quite wide and nicely placed centralised vocalists. So far so good. I can't really make comparisons against Jeffs system which has massive Altec Lansing horns, X-O's with several caps costing $770 alone. I'll get some pics posted at some stage.

Now, a big thanks to Brian (he of Klotz IC fame), his nimble digits performed dextrous feats where my own humble attempts failed, this japeful jaunt would not have been possible without him, so again CHEERS BRIAN. :thumbsup:

[brian2957]

Nice one Andy . Glad you're happy with the cables , although you may have to wait for a few hours while the molecular structure of the cables changes and they give of their best :)

[walpurgis]

you may have to wait for a few hours while the molecular structure of the cables changes and they give of their best :)

Ooh. I could take you up on that one Brian. Probably best not. We all know where cable debates go! :D

[brian2957]

Correct Geoffrey , we do want to remain friends :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

I have a request. Do we have a mystical Japanese figure on AOS that we can call SAN? I require one for the continuation of this experiment.

[Gordon Steadman]

I have a request. Do we have a mystical Japanese figure on AOS that we can call SAN? I require one for the continuation of this experiment.

I'm called Insan. if that's any good!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Is that "Insan" or "Insane" ? (Sorry couldn't resist, Nodrog) ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've put my cables in my cable cooker to cook over the next few hours. Listening will continue later. I'm really glad I bought my cable cooker they are are extremely useful.

[Gordon Steadman]

Is that "Insan" or "Insane" ? (Sorry couldn't resist, Nodrog) ;)

The dot was there for a very good reason:eyebrows:

[Gordon Steadman]

I've put my cables in my cable cooker to cook over the next few hours. Listening will continue later. I'm really glad I bought my cable cooker they are are extremely useful.

Wasat? The microwave?

[Wakefield Turntables]

The parady continues.

I've managed to get a Japanese cable consultant guru called FuksishitaSAN, just like Jeff.

I've also managed to cook my cables just like Jeff.

18459

On a more series note. The original Klotz / MS Audio RCA IC's that I made years ago v the new Belden IC's produced by Brian.

18460

The Duelund speaker cable in my original JR149's.

18461

An early pair of JR149's, same drivers as the LS5/3A and Mark 1 cross over.

18462

The Quad 405-2 with a full compliment of RCA's, IC's and Kettle leads.

18463

The JR149's are famous for needing a bit of welly to drive them and being able to fill large rooms with lots of music. The Belden IC's and Duelund speaker cable have been producing some very nice noises over the last couple of days. They are extremely good at portraying saxophone and vocals. The midband on good recordings can be sublime. I've played all manor of Genre's with this lash up and have been surprised by the Belden + Duelund combo. The Duelund is not in the same league as my usual Van Damme 6mm2 blue cable but I would have to say that so far from what I'm hearing the Belden IC's are more than a match for the Klotz+MS Audio IC's that I own. I've still loads of listening to do and will hopefully post up some more in depth notes at some point.

[brian2957]

Hah ! You've over cooked them Andy , they were light brown when I sent them down :lol:

I agree that both the Klotz and the Belden interconnects are a match in some ways . However , I preferred the '' fruitier '' bass of the Klotz interconnects , but the mids of the Belden interconnects were cleaner IMO .

I must confess that I like both and was quite surprised at how good Belden interconnects sounded in my system with some very familiar tracks . The only problem with the Belden cable is its lack of availability in the UK .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hah ! You've over cooked them Andy , they were light brown when I sent them down :lol:

I agree that both the Klotz and the Belden interconnects are a match in some ways . However , I preferred the '' fruitier '' bass of the Klotz interconnects , but the mids of the Belden interconnects were cleaner IMO .

I must confess that I like both and was quite surprised at how good Belden interconnects sounded in my system with some very familiar tracks . The only problem with the Belden cable is its lack of availability in the UK .

I ended getting the Beldem IC cable from POLAND :eek: I must admit to not taking too much notice of the bass but I do have some pretty good tracks to which I can assess your findings. I'm finding that the Belden IC's are very good with Digital sources and not so good from the analog side of things. :interesting:

[Wakefield Turntables]

You've got to love Jeff for his love of Duelund. Please read.

http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/duelund-coherent-audio-dca16ga-premium-tinned-copper-vintage-tone-cable/

[brian2957]

I ended getting the Beldem IC cable from POLAND :eek: I must admit to not taking too much notice of the bass but I do have some pretty good tracks to which I can assess your findings. I'm finding that the Belden IC's are very good with Digital sources and not so good from the analog side of things. :interesting:

That's interesting Andy , I wonder why?

[Wakefield Turntables]

That's interesting Andy , I wonder why?

?????? No idea. I'm a very sceptical cable critic and wouldn't like to say. I think there are too many variables at play here.

[brian2957]

Yes agreed . I gave up trying to fathom out these things years ago . If it sounds good to my ears then it is good :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just a quicky for those that want to try the Duelund Western Electric speaker cable. It's now available at HiFi collective and I'm not sure if its £7 or £8 per meter. I'm probably going to get some more and russle up some IC's for a little fun over Xmas.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I really must post my findings at some point. I need to plonk these cables in my reference Valve system and have a decent session.

[petrat]

I really must post my findings at some point. I need to plonk these cables in my reference Valve system and have a decent session.

Yes ... do that! :D

[brian2957]

Yup...pull yer socks up Andy :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right, I've been meaning to write something for a while, so here goes.

I plugged the Belden IC's and Duelund speaker cable into my Valve reference system (see signature for details). I removed my usual Mark Grant cables
https://markgrant.co.uk/audio-cables/32-oyaide-ftvs-510-pure-silver-stereo-cable-fitted-with-wbt-0110-ag.html and my Van Damme 6mm Blue Speaker cable.
http://hifipig.com/van-damme-blue-and-hi-fi-grade-6-0mm-speaker-cables/ I use this combination every Sunday night to listen to Jazz whilst having the odd Penderyn.

Now the Belden/Duelund combo had big shoes to fill and Jeff over at Jeff's place decided to spend whole weeks raving over the potential of these cables. You have to admit that my system is nothing like Jeff's and I sure as hell ain't gonna spend $1000's on Duelund caps to replicate what he has. So, I plugged in and started to listen. Initially I was very surprised at how life like and delicate cymbals sounded. I even began to think that John Coltrane's Sax sounded "organic" just like Jeff said it would, then I realised that I was listening to a very condensed, weedy rendition of what should be a very three dimensional Saxophone standing in the left corner of my sound stage. The sax sounded just like it was playing into a cup :rolleyes:. Piano I'm afraid was no better. All I could hear was a painfully dull and blunted rendition on piano playing. I'm used to being to hear each note indvidually and follow the edge of the note as it decays, no, not here, I actually had to stop listening after 5 minutes. Things went even further down hill, I decided to try Miles Davis Kinda Blue, the opening reverb on the double was completely lost and was more of a mumble. I'm afraid to say that I took the cables out at this stage and fitted back my old reference cables, sat down and had a whisky to calm my nerves and then calmly listened to some decent jazz.

[brian2957]

Sounds like you had a rough time mate :uhho: :lol:

Glad all has been returned to sonic '' normality '' .

I regularly do the same and always return to an earlier cable , usually very quickly :rolleyes:

Enjoy your whisky :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Sounds like you had a rough time mate :uhho: :lol:

Glad all has been returned to sonic '' normality '' .

I regularly do the same and always return to an earlier cable , usually very quickly :rolleyes:

Enjoy your whisky :)

The IC's sound fine but not as good as the Klotz. The Belden/Duelund combo sounded ok on SS equipment, now how does that work, Jeff's stuff is mainly valve/horn based stuff????? :scratch:

[brian2957]

Well I tried quite a few wires before I settled on the Klotz MC5000 mate so I sympathize with you on that front . Not really had much experience with valves though .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Blimey just over 2 years since I last did anything with this experiment. I might have a listen tonight with some Celestion Ditton 15's that I re-wired with the Duelund cable. Should be interesting. I might also make some comparisons against the Karma cables.

[Wakefield Turntables]

An update! I managed to get my old Radford STA25 Renaissance working again after a complete valve change and re biasing the valves. I currently have the Radford linked in to the Croft Epoch preamp, eventually the radford pre-amp will be fettled and put pack into service (back to EL34'S EEEK)! The Celestion ditton 15'S have been re-wired with Duelund cable, and I've also running some Duelund speaker cable. Things are sounding truly excellent. Ultimately I intend to have the EAR 835 clone and Lenco 75 in this system. Should make for a fun system and something different to listen to. I might post some more notes up at some point. Overall the Real Sound experiment seems to on track again. Maybe the "synergy" of the other kit just wasn't there?

[sq225917]

tweaked and fettled kit.

[Wakefield Turntables]

tweaked and fettled kit.


Yep. Defo! The old 15's have never sounded as good. Just goes to show how your perception of things changes.

[Wakefield Turntables]

OK, the Radford pre and power are now working. A dodgy set of ECC82's replaced today and we have great noise coming through the 15's. I wonder how things are going to sound through the Tannoy's. More notes and observations tomorrow maybe?

[Wakefield Turntables]

I ordered up the parts for a new set of IC's between the Radford pre and power amp.

Belden 8402 microphone cable
Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA’s

The IC's are now duly constructed and sitting in my REAL SOUND system. I have also replaced the JR149's with a fully set of modded Celestion Ditton 15 speakers (https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49941-Celestion-ditton-15-restoration-project&highlight=celestion+ditton+speakers). I now have a full loom of Duelund cabling.The speakers are Duelund re-wired, the IC's use the same wire construction, and the speaker cabling is Duelund. The Radford pre and power amp even contain tinned copper wiring! I've been listening to the system now for a couple of days and can honestly say that really really loving what I'm hearing. Massive amounts of details and fantastic timbral decay. It's very rare that I do a complete about-face-turn about a product but it's looking like that might be the case here. Blimey!!! :eek:

[Nonnegativ]

You are going all inn :) - Thanks for sharing.

Duelund DCA 16ga in double run replaced Audience Au24 as my speaker cable due to rearrangement of my listening room - I had quite a few cables in and out before settling on the Duelund. Besides what you have already mentioned it's main qualities in my setup is it's (illusion..) of Presence it gives to the music.

The same cable as signal cable (XLR shielded) between my Phono & Amp wasn't good though - the higher frequencies was too sharp for my liking.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes its a good cable. Ideally I'd like a couple of Duelund caps in the speakers but the cost is prohibitive, I'm happy with the presentation.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Its been a little while but I found a little time to replace the capacitor in my Real Sound Celestion Ditton 15 with one of these


26825

And then I shall by bypassing them with one of these

26826

It's probably the cheapest way to get a Duelund component into my 15's :lol:

A review to come at some point in the future!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just another quick update! The REAL sound system has moved on a bit. I bought a new pair of these. I now have to wait 3 weeks for them to be delivered. I have already organised some Duelund DCA 16GA to wire them up. I borrowed the pair from my Tannoy 15" MG's and the results sound promising.


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zvAAAOSwlpZaeuip/s-l500.jpg
I also splashed the cash and bought some Duelund DCA12 GA speaker cable whilst should replace the thinner 16GA that I'd been listening to. Finally I decided to try some new EL34's in my Radford STA25 amp. I went over to https://brimaruk.com/ and bought myself a quad of EL34's. Have you seen the price of supposed NOS Brimar EL34's? Your look at £100+ a piece, I ordered 4 for £100.


https://brimaruk.com/BrimarUK/wp-content/uploads/Brimar-EL34-Pic-112x150.png

I strongly recommend a visit to their webpage and learn about the machines that they shipped over back to the uk. Well the REAL sound system is coming along nicely. I've still not ordered the Bypass caps, that's for another day.

As ever, stay tuned!

[Gazjam]

Hi Andy

Been following your journey here, very interesting.
A fan of the Duelund cable myself, using the 16Ga in a single run to my Impulse H2's, so interested to hear your take on the thicker 12 vs the 16.

Sometimes I wonder if the sound could do with a bit more "meat on the bone" sometimes, so maybe the 12 could be the way forward?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Andy

Been following your journey here, very interesting.
A fan of the Duelund cable myself, using the 16Ga in a single run to my Impulse H2's, so interested to hear your take on the thicker 12 vs the 16.

Sometimes I wonder if the sound could do with a bit more "meat on the bone" sometimes, so maybe the 12 could be the way forward?

no idea mate I'm in Disney land at the moment I ordered all the stuff as a treat for when I get back. I'm going bonkers queuing twelve hours a time for a two minute ride with my daughter :eek:. I will endeavour to report when I have a little time.

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND EXPERIMENT - UPDATE!!


It's getting cold so it must be time for another update! The REAL sound experiment is developing quite nicely. My Taket Batpure super tweeters arrived.


26920


I had an old piece of wood sitting in the garage and I liked it's rough organic look. I drilled a couple of holes and wired up the Duelund cabling for the supertweeters. Ten minutes later and we had the new Supertweeters plumbed into the Celestion Ditton 15 speakers.

2692126922

At this moment in time I don't think I can modify the 15's any further. I may by the Duelund bypass caps. Yes, silly money for a couple of caps but this experiment is all about working with and experimenting with the Duelund products. My attention was turned to the Radford STA Amplifier. I decided to pull out my Electroharmonix EL34's and replace them with some Brimar EL34's from https://brimaruk.com/ OK not Mullard EL34's but close. I also wanted to help out with the ultimate aim of the project which is to start valve production again in the UK. I now need to have a look at the remaining complement of valves for the Radford and dig out Mullard equivalents.


26923

The REAL sound experiment is still in development and I'm hoping to have either a Garrard 301/401 to finish the project. I can then start listening and report
back my findings.

Stay tuned... :cool:

[struth]

I stuck my tweeters to side of cab. Worked well.

[Edward]

Interesting.

How are you finding the Batpure STs so far? I also got a set but tbh don't find much difference but have not plugged them in for a few months now. The small difference I *thought* I detected were a slightly more defined image across the range. Difficult to blind test these though.

Also interesting you are trying the new Brimar EL34s. Did come across them but not yet bought a set. Still using JJs in my sta25. A big difference I did notice were replacing all the input valves for new. So interested to hear about your thoughts. :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Interesting.

How are you finding the Batpure STs so far? I also got a set but tbh don't find much difference but have not plugged them in for a few months now. The small difference I *thought* I detected were a slightly more defined image across the range. Difficult to blind test these though.

Also interesting you are trying the new Brimar EL34s. Did come across them but not yet bought a set. Still using JJs in my sta25. A big difference I did notice were replacing all the input valves for new. So interested to hear about your thoughts. :)

I've been a big advocate of the Taket Batpure's for ages and I originally started using them on my Tannoy 15" MG's several years ago. I noticed a "decent" improvement on the Tannoy's and they are still in place! I've tried them on the 15's and did notice a wider more spacious soundstage but they were wired with pure silver and not the Duelund tinned copper so the jury is still out. I've had JJ's before in my Sondex amp and I thought them to be ok but bettered with Genelex Gold Lions. The input valves on my STA25 are a mixture of Brimar and Electroharmonix. I'm going to have to search through my stash and see what I have in hiding!

[Barry]

Is the wire with the manky-looking insulation the Duelund?

[Edward]

Thanks for the feedback Andrew. I'll dig up my batpures and plug them in. I'm wondering if the cables I used on them are holding them back. Can't recall what I used.

The new input valves are ones that Will at Radford Revival supplied. I'm guessing that my previous ones, being quite old, had become a bit 'soft'.

§

[Wakefield Turntables]

Is the wire with the manky-looking insulation the Duelund?

Yes.


Thanks for the feedback Andrew. I'll dig up my batpures and plug them in. I'm wondering if the cables I used on them are holding them back. Can't recall what I used.

The new input valves are ones that Will at Radford Revival supplied. I'm guessing that my previous ones, being quite old, had become a bit 'soft'.

§

Good luck, please comment about your experiences on my thread.

[Gazjam]

Andrew,

you had a chance yet to try the 12 gauge speaker cable over the 16 yet? :)
Interested in seeing if thats a worthwhile change or not.

Really like the 16, works really well in my system.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew,

you had a chance yet to try the 12 gauge speaker cable over the 16 yet? :)
Interested in seeing if thats a worthwhile change or not.

Really like the 16, works really well in my system.

Not yet I've got the get the Radford Pre fixed. It's down on a channel. It's been sent off and i'm awaiting delivery. So, experiment partly on hold. I've a few other irons in the fire and the Real Sound experiment is down the list at the minute.

[Barry]

What is so special about the Dueland cable? Stranded nickel-plated copper over solid silver - I thought you were an argyrophile?

[Wakefield Turntables]

What is so special about the Dueland cable? Stranded nickel-plated copper over solid silver - I thought you were an argyrophile?

There's nothing special about the cable, the system is purely a fun based project. I suppose you could say, a fool and his money...... Anyway, why argyrophile? Yep I like silver but I don't want to get impregnated with it :wowzer:

[Barry]

argyrophile - a lover of silver, aurophile - a lover of gold. I'm an oenophile - a lover of wine. :)

But you're not the only user of Dueland cable; so what is their attraction over other speaker cables? In other words, why are you using them?

[Gazjam]

Andrew, a question skweezy pleeze?

Making up a couple of sets on interconnects in the new year with the 16 gauge Duelund, did you find the interconnects made as much of a difference than running it as speaker wire?
If so, did you find any particular plug to be the best in this application?

ta much.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew, a question skweezy pleeze?

Making up a couple of sets on interconnects in the new year with the 16 gauge Duelund, did you find the interconnects made as much of a difference than running it as speaker wire?
If so, did you find any particular plug to be the best in this application?


ta much.

Gaz (?),

It was very difficult to get the Belden 8402 microphone cable and Mine came from POLAND!!! To this day I still use this alongside Switchcraft 3502AAU RCA’s. I have three pairs of IC's that I've made up over the years. I've not tried the 16 Gauge Duelund but you might be interested in this https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.com/new-dual-duelund-dca16ga-tinned-copper-wire-available-at-dealers/ it might save you a lot of time and effort?!!?? I've not had the "REAL SOUND" system up and running in nearly 7 weeks now. It was supposed to be a winter project but my Radford Pre-amp got buggered and my time has been recently taken up with this https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?67084-My-new-deck . I will be running a Garrard 301 as the front end in the "REAL SOUND" system with a SME 3009 and a 3012 running SPU's and classic MM's. Sorry I can't comment on the 16 gauge stuff. :oops:

[karma67]

no need to buy from poland,you can get it here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Belden-8402-Microphone-Cable-High-Conductivity-Copper-Conductors/163693925246?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

i also tried it with the switchcraft rca's and thought they were awful,the kle's went straight back again.

[Gazjam]

Thanks Andy,
Been reading the Jeffsplace Blog for a while now, that’s what got me interested in the Duelund stuff.
Use the 16 gauge stuff unterminated as suggested by the blog into my H2’s, just sounds “right”.

So curious about the interconnects as well, make a couple of sets up in the new year and post back.

Looking at the KLEI’s myself actually.

[Wakefield Turntables]

You could try some of the fancy new Duelund RCA's but I don't think I'll be bothering. I may try some pure copper RCA's at the moment. I'm trying to do a system without an Silver in it!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Found some spares for my SME 3009 might make a REAL sound tonearm cable and compare it to the original SME offering. Might pass a few hours.

[Gazjam]

:popcorn:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well it looks like the autumn bug of hi-fi modding has struck. I intend to mod my 15's by removing the binding post and buying a couple of Bypass capacitors. I think I'm going to try some of these https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/duelund-jdm-tinned-copper-600vdc.html

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well that's it just and bought a couple of these28680 bypass caps. Prices have come down quite considerably so why not! Should arrive early next week. Soldering iron at the ready and then have a good listen.

[beermaniac]

How did you get on with the Duelund speaker cables ?? I’m using them and ICs so interested in your experience ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

Loved them. I don't really like to try and describe how they sound, it's more about how they make me feel. All I can say is that they worked synergistically very well within my valve system and they kept me wanting to listen so that can't be a bad thing.

[beermaniac]

Sounds good - I am using them with a Yamaha A S3000 and Klipsch Forte speakers and compared with several fancy cables they just sound right .. clear and natural. I have lost the cable itch [emoji12]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've never really had a cable itch, just gone along with what I thought might sound interesting. I did have a Nordost fetish once but I got that out of my system!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well that's the bypass caps installed into the 15's. I'll post some pictures tomorrow when I get time. Sounding good so far!

[Wakefield Turntables]

At long last I finally dug out my pictures of my Duelund bypass caps. Here there are


https://i.ibb.co/ykxw2Mj/WP-20201006-004.jpg


And finally here is the thing installed.

https://i.ibb.co/ZhGL4br/WP-20201006-006.jpg

All I can say is that it sounds excellent. Details in spades. Very happy so far with the outcome. I still need to do more listening to get a handle with respects to what they are doing. All-in-all the 15's are sounding excellent. I've had several weeks listening to the 15's without the supertweeters and can hand on heart say that without them the 15's loose a lot of detail and top end sparkle. I listening to the 15's now with some Miles Davis, very happy, very chilled out!

[Wakefield Turntables]

should I resseruct this thread? Maybe with some 300b monoblocks? Thorens td160 super, super sooped Shure v15 mk3 ?

Answers on a postcard.....

[Firebottle]

Have you still got the 300b monoblocks Andy?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nearly there, after several years of messing around. I have a system that might actually work. It's based around Thorens TD 160 Super, Radford SC-25 pre, and a 300b power amp. Phonostage duties will come from the preamp, and it's MM only! All wires will be Duelund "Real Sound", speakers will vary and rotate I'll be starting with the big Tannoys and then rolling through some British classics.

[Jimbo]

Let us know how it sounds Andy and maybe a few pics?:)

[brian2957]

Yup, always enjoy your threads Andy, especially if they have pictures :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I might do a video!

[brian2957]

Video would be good :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've got to finish off the TD160 super first and then I'll see what I can do. :eek:

[brian2957]

Ta :)

[Jimbo]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[Wakefield Turntables]

This one is dedicated to Brian and Jim, hi guys!

It's raining in Wakefield and nowt much is doing. So, I thought I'd listen to a little background music and update this thread. I don't post very much stuff nowadays as I'm pretty happy and content with the gear I've collected. The "REAL SOUND" experiment started out as a copy-cat experience which was inspired by Jeff Day over on his webpage and to this day I've maintained a "REAL SOUND" system , manly just for fun, but of late, I've started to collect and experiment with older recordings after realising that their is a wealth of music which can be bought very cheaply and in some instances sound amazing. My REAL SOUND experiment has morphed over the years from using solid state Quad 405 amplification, through to Radford pre and power amplification with NIOS MULLARD ECC83's and EL34's. The system now compromises of a Radford SC25 Renaissance pre-amp fitted with NOS Mullard 8317's, power amp duties now belong to a no-name Italian 300b amplifier bought on AudioAddicts forum. The 300b amp, you will see some photos of this to the end of the post.

Vinyl spinning duties have gone to a NOS Thorens TD160 Super. I have made very small tweaks to the deck. Firstly, it now sits in a more massive Oak plinth and I have made a 25mm base board. Intrinsically it's the same as a normal TD160 super and retails all the tweaks the Thorens added and indeed many of which Thorens owners add to normal 160's. This deck came with a orginal SME metal tonearm board made. My SME 3009 needs a few spare parts (which have been ordered), namely so new mounting washers and isolation grommets. I'll be using a Shure V15 mk 3 with a new JICO https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/vn35he-sas-r/ at the moment it houses a NOS VN35HE which sounds lovely.



https://i.ibb.co/KyzWLS5/WP-20220605-003.jpg
I've kept the original tinned copper tonearm cable and even the original SME made RCA connectors. As you can see from the picture we have a few treats install for the 160 Super. I have a NOS Thorens belt and I have ordered a new belt from a new seller on ebay which seems to be getting rave reviews, it's blue colour and promises are manner of improvements, we shall see! You can also see from the picture we have a new set of isolation grommets and springs for the suspension. I already have good pistonic bounce but we can always experiment and see if we can get things to sound better. I have also made a set of 3 platter isolation dots which suposedly decouple the platter and improve things, again, we shall see.


https://i.ibb.co/gPB3yrJ/WP-20220605-005.jpg

The deck has the heavily damped Thorens TD160 platter mat which no other 160 recieved. The platter bearing was the largest in the 160's, and the 160 Super had slightly improved figures over the 160 in bearing noise and rumble.


Those interested in Thorens deck can learn a lot more from this excellent German site.

http://thorens-info.de/html/thorens_td_160_-_166__145_-_14.html



https://i.ibb.co/sqBNjVc/WP-20220605-004.jpg

The Radford is an amp that I've owned for quite sometime, recently fettled and slightly upgraded :eyebrows: it's got the best ever ECC83 made, the 8137, some would argue Telefunken are better but I love these English valves.


https://i.ibb.co/0QDswJG/WP-20220605-002.jpg


Finally, and itch, scratched. An amp with 300b valves. The 300b valve is probably the most expensive bottle you can buy for an amp, prices in some instances reaching 5 figures, simply stupid. I've always liked Gold Lion valves and these are no exception, they have some hours on them and sound very nice indeed. One day, I may buy a pair of Elrog's, or even the new Western Electric remakes. Owing a 300b valve is also something I wanted to try out with my large Tannoy speakers. The amp has 4 & 8 ohm speaker taps at the back so offers a little chance for experimentation.


https://i.ibb.co/yPr7jhN/IMG-20220223-061322-902.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/zGVJbVd/IMG-20220223-061615-677.jpg

The whole system is cabled together with Duelund cabling and IC's. The whole system sits on a Quadrapsire mish/mash which was made from parts found in the garage and loft. We are nearly spinning, just got to wait for the SME parts to arrive for the 3009. Stay tuned..:cool:

[Barry]

Great post Andrew.

Is the mirror finish of the top plate of your TD160 standard? Keeping it free of finger marks would drive me potty!

Apropos the fitting of the isolation washers to the SME arm baseplate, you might like to experiment with not using them and replace them with washers.

(Finally, you might like to replace "compromises" with "comprises".)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Great post Andrew.

Is the mirror finish of the top plate of your TD160 standard? Keeping it free of finger marks would drive me potty!

Apropos the fitting of the isolation washers to the SME arm baseplate, you might like to experiment with not using them and replace them with washers.

(Finally, you might like to replace "compromises" with "comprises".)

Thanks Barry, quite often, I'll type as I think. Spelling mistakes and incorrect word usage will crop up, but, I think that's part of the charm of the reply. The top plate is not standard. I only touch the records and we don't have any "little" fingers in the house so polishing is kept to a minimum.

[Jimbo]

Great update Andy, I am particularly interested as my first turntable was a Thorens TD160 and my first power amp was a Quad 405-2 so I have an idea how these sound. I used a Croft Micro (First edition) as a preamp.

I expect your fettled set up sounded better as I did not even know how to properly set up a turntable back in 1986!:)

[Jimbo]

Great update Andy, I am particularly interested as my first turntable was a Thorens TD160 and my first power amp was a Quad 405-2 so I have an idea how these sound. I used a Croft Micro (First edition) as a preamp.

I expect your fettled set up sounded better as I did not even know how to properly set up a turntable back in 1986!:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Great update Andy, I am particularly interested as my first turntable was a Thorens TD160 and my first power amp was a Quad 405-2 so I have an idea how these sound. I used a Croft Micro (First edition) as a preamp.

I expect your fettled set up sounded better as I did not even know how to properly set up a turntable back in 1986!:)

Thanks Jim. I've had a few TD160's, about five at last count :eek:. I've never been a big belter fan since owning a LP12 and not liking the silly prices for upgrades. My head got turned 12 years ago with DD's and then about 10 years ago with Idlers, the rest is history. I've always thought the 160 and 3009 had a very very good synergy. The 160 Super is that little bit better. I've not gone donw the route of filling the sub-chassis with silent coat or anything like that, just left the original Thorens damping material in place. My old 405-2 had all the Net Audio upgrades and was fettled by Nick Gorham, I didn't like it, depsite being a Quad fan!! I'm not sure if it'll sound better than your old deck but at least I have a yard stick to work with and any upgrades/tweaks improving sound quality should be quite easily discernable. I still have a little further to go with this so I'll probably have a few more updates. :cool:


Fantastic post Andrew. That turntable is absolutely beautiful. I know you refurbish these turntables (and more) and I bet it's in tiptop condition.

I bet this system sounds fantastic. Thanks for sharing mate :)

Thanks Brian. Not sure how it'll sound, I'm hoping to have some more fun and maybe give some people some pleasure in reading these posts whilst messing about with old decks. It's a win-win really.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another night chilling out and anothe quick update...

Hi to everyone following this on going saga.... we will spin vinyl at some point..... :lol:

The system has been running but only on one channel and occasional output significantly lower than normal. Don Sherlock Holmes deerstalker and pipe garb. The hunt begins for a culprit, well sort of, I'm of an age now where I really can't be bothered checking old hifi and would sooner get a pro to check such things. The SME 3009 and tonearm cable has been sent to J7 @ Audio-Origami for full check and repairs (if needed). Speakers, speaker cable, IC's, pre and power amp all work, or have been working up until last nights trial run. So, process of elimination means its either the tonearm, tonearm cable, cartridge or cartridge tags/leads, two of these things are going to be checked out, I suspect the cartridge or cartridge tags/leads, but we shall see. I'm in no rush and to be honest this gives me some time to get the new springs and chasis isolation grommets fitted alongside fine tuning the suspension.

The 3009 did receive some new isolation grommets on the tonearm board and some nice new mounting screws, of which I had to scrape together from garage spares (again)! I'm hoping it's not the Shure V15 mk3, but I suppose it does give me an excuse to explore some of the vintage MM's with this setup. So, for the time being we have be grounded again, I suppose I'll just have to slum it with the Garrard 301 and wardrobe sized tannoys......

[brian2957]

Aw ya poor wee soul....havin to slum it with a 301 and big Tannoys ;) Seriously though, there's nothing worse than a channel down and the problem isn't easy to find. I'm sure you'll get there sooner rather than later mate. Please keep us updated :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think I've found the culprit, a spent Mullard M8137 :doh: - too late now to be messing around, we have a fiddle tomorrow.

[Jimbo]

Where was the Mullard M8137 installed - preamp? I may have a contact who can help you out with a replacement?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yep, Jim, Pre-amp.

[Jimbo]

I will see if my contact has the Mullard you are looking for Andy.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another wee update...

So, it did turn out I had a bust M8137, and we still have one channel output. So, the 3009 has been shipped upto Glasgow to be fully checked over by John @ AudioOrigami. It looks like I may have sourced another CV4004 at a reasonable price, many thanks to Jimbo of this very Parish. I did maange to get some output
from one speaker and can say that I really liked what I heard, very smooth, relaxed, and more importantly, tonally different. The system is incredibly simple when it comes to cabling so it should be pretty easy to see if power cables have an impact. I have one pair of IC's in the shape of pre to power amp and that's it, I do, however have several IC's made up from the same Belden speaker cable with different RCA's, should be fun seeing which, tonally sounds best, I think I already have a favourite even with output from the one speaker. :eyebrows:

This little flight of fancy also allows me to mess around with old MM carts of which I have a soft spot. So, I may just start buying up a stable of old and new MM's just for a laugh. Anyway, not much doing now, so, as always, stay tuned..

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another update.....

So, whilst lots of the system is being checked out, I got my mind to wondering what I could do next. The idea of a "REAL SOUND" tonearm cable to me whilst walking the dog. So, I've put the feelers out for a new or 2nd hand male SME 4 pin connector to fit the 3009, i'm not that fussed if one dosen't turn up, but it would be nice so we can continue this experiment with a near full loom of Duelund cable. I'll probably upgrade the RCA's to something made of solid copper unlike the SME RCA's. I'll document this section of the experiment if and only when I source the SME connector. The TD160 super may also be getting a few little upgrades, maybe something from Vintageaudio.dk, they so some nice carbon springs and maybe a new motor and speed controller. We shall see....

[brian2957]

Looks like you're havin lots of fun here Andrew. TBH I really need to get a dog again. It's amazing the things that come into yer heid while walking a dog :eyebrows:

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND - UPDATE!

The tonearm returned and was supposed to be fully working, but I'm still one channel down, so what gives? I have no idea. I now have a 3009 with a silent left channel. This has been checked out through a process of elimination. I'm sure that it's not a problem with cartridge, headshell, or cartridge tags/leads. I bought new audiotechnica headshell leads and after installation, I'm still one channel down. Cartridges and headshells have been tested on over decks and arms, and lo' and behold produce two channels of sound (it's amazing what tonearms can do nowadays)! So, it's either intrinsic wiring of the tonearm or the tonearm cable itself. Well I do have a small piece of good news. I did manage to source a full SME 3009 tonearm cable for 15E from Europe, hopefully this will be intact and maybe diagnose if it's the tonearm or tonearm cable. Either way I'm not in a hurry, I do have a back-up plan in the form of me sending the 3009 off if I still have one channel output after this new tonearm cable arrives. I'll get it checked over for a second opinion, I hope this is not the case as it's a 3 month turnaround period! Yep, these guys who offer these services are just plain busy, probably still catching up from COVID projects.

I have now sourced enough cable for a REAL SOUND tonearm cable from some spare speaker cable I had sitting in my spares box in the garage. I have decided to go full-monty and order x6 of Duelund ultra pure copper RCA's https://www.hificollective.co.uk/rca-plugs/duelund-rca-plugs-gold.html these are not the more expensive and a £50 pre RCA version does exist but I think is a little too expensive for this experiment. I'm only buying these six RCA's as an investment into assessing the ultra-pure RCA's. I'd like to first assess the sonic characteristics of the RCA's currently installed in my system, but I need two channel output first!

Anyway, upwards and onwards,..........

[Barry]

The spring-loaded contacts of the SME arm headshell socket can become 'sticky' and not make contact. Using a small jewellers screwdriver, push the contacts in and out a few times. That ought to restore connection.

Do you have a continuity meter? If so check for continuity between the headshell leads and the 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' socket at the arm base. If that is OK, then the problem will lay with the Belling & Lee plug, the arm leads and the SME RCA 'phono' plugs.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Barry,

Thanks for the reply. The whole 3009 was supposed to have been checked for continuity and claimed to have passed, the tonearm cable, intrinsic wiring, headshell, and headshell cables, all supposed to have passed. I'll not divulge who checked it. I'll have a little go at the pins as you suggested, I don't think it'll help but stranger things have happened!

ATB

A:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND - It lives!

Finally after much messing around we have a system up, running, and playing in STEREO. I had no idea that such levels of fidelity could be achieved, I've been living with one channel on this system for so long :eek:. The system is as basic as can be. One set of IC's, one set on RCA's from the TD160 Super, a pre-amp and a power amp. The pre-amp is fully Mullard 8317 powered, the power amp has genelex gold lion 300b, probably not the best 300b on the market but pretty reasonable. I've also got a couple of new Siemens C3M valves, I found a couple of webpages for those that are interested, mainly

http://www.r-type.org/exhib/abh0281.htm

and

https://www.jacmusic.com/techcorner/ARTICLES/English/Portraits/C3g/C3g-C3m-info.html ----> This make for intersting reading.

I've had all sorts of problems with this system and tracking down the issue with one channel was extremely taxing. The SME 3009 was checked and given a clean bill of health. The Radford pre had two problems, mainly a blown M8317 valves and a bad solder connection to one of the channels output RCA's. The power amp had a faulty C3M valve. So, after extracting a few quid I purchased a new M8317, a pair of C3M's, and used the soldering iron in anger to repair the RCA on the pre-amp.

Currently the REAL SOUND system lives to the right of my listening room chair, within easy reach of the Radford's volume control, this is very useful after one or two drinks of whisky and means I have optimally placed the system for getting my rear out of my listening chair every to change volume levels. The deck is by no means optimal. Tonerm height, cartridge loading, channel matching with the Fozgo all needs to be done, I've not checked platter rotation speed, it's just spinning and making some noise (Black Sabbath at the moment). The Shure V15 mk3 will shortly be saying hello to a new JICO stylus, top of the range..

https://www.jico-stylus.com/product/vn35he-sas-r/

Speakers are my next problem. I've quite a few pairs to play around with, a full pimped and restored pair of Celestion 15's, and a slightly updated pair of IMF Super Compact II's, both have slightly different mods. The 15's are fully Duelund loaded by Bypass caps on the XO's and completely rewired with Duelund cabling. So I've gone mad and ordered a pair of Cardas solid copper bonding posts for the 15's, yes, I know complete overkill. The IMF's have some really nice solid copper cardas binding posts, no duelund components but are wired with tinned copper cabling. Both speakers have positive and negative points. I suppose I'll just have to spend some time listening to them both and then make a choice, life can be so hard sometimes. :eyebrows: I could also do with re-making the stands that I made a few years earlier, they need to be raised a good six inches to get them anywhere near sounding half decent, this isn't a big job, just time consuming. I'm probably going to order some more speaker cable from HiFi Collective. Currently, the system is firing to my side and not full frontal, so, several meters of https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/duelund-dca12ga-tinned-multistrand-copper-wire-cotton-oil-insulated.html and I have also decided to slightly modify my IC's. My IC's are currently 1m in length which means thety bulge out all over the place at the back of the rack, I do have a smaller 0.5m pair which is ideal, this smartens them up and I also intend to go buy four of these https://www.hificollective.co.uk/rca-plugs/duelund-rca-plugs-gold.html to try and improve things further. Finally, the REAL SOUND batpure super tweeters have also been pressed into action!

So, all-in-all quite interesting.

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND EXPERIMENT PT X - A bit of spare time.

I've now ordered all the stuff from HiFi Collective and I will have quite some time to wait for the JICO stylus so I'll be using the old VN35MR stylus for the time being. I've managed to get the 3009 setup pretty well, maybe some very fine tweaking with the pillar height but essentially I'm happy with things so far, Dr. Feickhart protracter makes for easy work. The Fozgo + test record may come out tomorrow for channel balancing, it's too hot tonight and it's been a long day. Things are progressing slowly but very surely. I'll probably not update now for a while, I'm looking to do a decent sized post next time, hopefully with some decent pictures.

Stay tuned... :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND EXPERIMENT PT XI - Rainy Sunday in the garage...

Rain is bouncing on the garage door, I've a big mug of tea by my side and my lug 'oles are listening to Radio 4. I recieved a nice package from Hi-Fi Collective.



https://i.ibb.co/T0YbjPN/WP-20220724-001.jpg

The speaker cable has attached to my 300B, this now means that I can keep the "REAL SOUND" system in place and I can play around with speakers at will. As you can see from the above picture my 15's had some nice binding posts attached, but closer examination revealed them to be brass :steam:. The binding posts have now been replaced with Cardas high purity solid copper. You can also see my IC's fitted with the recommended RCA's from Jeff Day's website, this are to be replaced with Duelund RCA's with extremely high purity copper content.

After a little surgery....

https://i.ibb.co/TL8rf3D/WP-20220724-007.jpg


Lovely new binding posts. These really do make a difference. Here's a quick picture of the mounted XO in the 15's, note Duelund bypass cap installed.

https://i.ibb.co/M8DcPCj/WP-20220724-002.jpg


The IC's really do need to be upgraded with the new RCA's. I'll probably do this at some point in the week when I have a little spare time. I did make a start, but a lovely plate of food and some nice wine beckons... :cool:

https://i.ibb.co/Yf15jn0/WP-20220724-008.jpg


Setting up the TD160 Super has been a little annoying, never ever assume things are level!

https://i.ibb.co/34Kwf58/WP-20220724-009.jpg


I need to order some levelling feet with a degree of isolation from the other components in the system, that's another job for another night. We now have music playing, the cart's be aligned and the tonearm properly set-up. I think that's it for tonight...

Stay tuned...... :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND EXPERIMENT PT XII - Surprised......

I'm sitting in front of a fully functional REAL SOUND system. I'm quite surprised by the sound I'm hearing. OK, the Celestion 15's have limitations but then again this experiment was never about producing a system that blew everything out of the water it was more about having fun and pursuing an "idea" of how a music set-up could sound. Several things have changed since I first fullty got the system working, mainly the 15's have some lovely solid copper binding posts and the Belden IC's are now terminated with Duelund ultra pure copper RCA's, the difference is not subtle. Speaker placement has been improved altough I feel a little more tweaking is needed before I get the "sweet" spot. The TD-160 really does need setting up properly but I think I'll wait till over the weekend to have some fun with that. The platter should sit at 10mm ride height from the top of the plinth, this slightly varies and will need very slight tweaking. The Quadraspire rack needs some work as well as this is slightly uneven, so no good for the TT! The tonearm riding far too close to the vinyl top surface so cartridge VTA is also going to be a bit wonky. Weirdly, bass is very detailed, solid, purposeful, I hear a nice wide soundstage extending the full range across the listening room. Vocals are a little recessed but this could be due to the speakers rather than the TT or amplification.

Stay tuned.... :)

[sailor]

Hi Andrew, I see you having lots of fun there. Care to tell us what change you heard with the Duelund bypass cap across the Jantzen.

I found the Duelund speaker cable to be surprisingly good and I used them without terminals, just the bare wire clamped in the speaker posts. I bought the Duelund cables because my main cables, Harmonic Technology Pro 9's were a bit short after some renovations. I hooked the HT cables up recently as a sanity check and they have stayed there since. We just live with these python sized monsters.

If you wish to squeeze a little more out of the Celestions I have two areas to look at. I think I see the internal speaker wires in your photos appear to be terminated with those push-on lugs. If this is the case you will find a cleaner performance by simply soldering the wire directly to the speaker tags. They are brass and probably Nickel plated. You should hear an improvement similar to the nice speaker posts you installed.

Also you have a simple crossover which is a good thing and lets you more easily hear changes you make. I suggest you consider repositioning the smaller coil on the XO board. The way they are now means they will be talking to each other because of mutual coupling. Not good, but if you remove the coil and stand it upright so that it is resting on the round part the coupling is destroyed ergo cleaner sound.

Unfortunately this is a bit awkward to mount. I use a mastic, silicone adhesive or hot-melt glue to secure it. It is important that the direction of the coil windings point straight towards the centre of the bigger coil.

The photo shows the correct alignment and Duelund cable 12 and 16AWG

https://i.imgur.com/NGKKjsD.jpg?1

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Charles,

Thanks for the positive comments. I'm an old hand at modding Celestion 15's, I've done 5-6 pairs in the past. I've already removed the nickel plated lugs which terminate the internal wiring and soldered the Duelund directly onto each speaker driver terminal. I'm not too bothered about messing around with the Inductors but thanks for the heads up! I very nearly completely bypassed the binding posts altogether and soldered speaker cable directly to the X-O, that way you'd certainly get everything from the horses mouth (or XO in this instance) ;).

I'm getting a very deep, powerful, detailed bass considering the size of the driver I would say it's just as extended as the 15XR which I've also owned as well. Soundstage is wide and extends beyond the edges of the speaker. Soundstage depth is reasonable, not cavernous but out for an experimental system. Vocals can sound a little recessed and muffled but overall more than acceptable. Filagree detail has really opened up since getting rid of the Switchcraft RCA's and the CMC brass binding posts that I had previously installed. I honestly don't think I'm getting the best from the system. The TT need levelling properly and the ride height of the platter is out by several MM's on a couple of the suspension springs. I've purchased some nice adjustable decoupling feet for the TT these should hopefully arrive next week.

I would ask you to look at this website if you want some idea of what I'm supposed to be hearing https://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I have included the review for the Duelund bypass cap.


Duelund Tinned Copper Foil Bypass Capacitor 0,01uF / 600VDC - 2% tolerance

Technical specifications (according to manufacturer): "Precision Speaker Capacitor; Tinned Copper Foil; handmade in Denmark".

Sound: These 0,01uF tinned copper foil bypass capacitors are really fun to work with. Like most copper foil bypass capacitors you get that increase in realism of tone, intimacy and a richness in the harmonic overtones. In direct comparison to the V-Cap CuTF they sound a fraction more forward but that's more down to personal taste and system matching, rather than anything to do with sound quality difference. Top of the range Mundorf capacitors in the value 0,01uF seemed in comparison to add brightness but this brightness was sort of sitting on top of the recording, not merging into it. The Mundorf's came across a tad artificial in that respect. Compared to the silver bypass, I find the tinned copper bypass to be a little darker but all the information contained in the recording does seem to come across in a more natural way, there is more drive and more body. Maybe it's they way I listen to music in general so let me explain this in more depth. My wife and I both come from families where playing a musical instrument is a normal, everyday thing to do. We continue this with our own family, our main instruments being the violin and double bass and our children play acoustic drums, piano and have stared in opera's and theatre productions. All of the instruments are acoustic instruments, which are very complex things to reproduce via loudspeakers. If I just stick to my double bass: it is far more than just low notes, the sound of an acoustic upright bass is a complex mixture of a spruce and maple body resonating, of stainless steel strings vibrating on an ebony fingerboard, of callus covered fingertips plucking or resin covered horse tail's hair bowing the strings. With the Duelund Tinned Copper bypass this complex mix and interaction of timbres comes across in an extremely natural manner, so it just lets me get deeper into the music. It's closer to real music for me. Where I found the Duelund Cu-Ag bypass to perform best parallel to a woofer or midrange driver in a low-pass network, the Duelund Cu-Sn bypass seems to work best when placed parallel to the series capacitor of a midrange or tweeter high-pass network. Since spring 2020, when Duelund moved production in house, the Duelund Cu-Sn Tinned Copper Foil Bypass Capacitor has been significantly reduced in price. With this new lower price it has become a real no-brainer that should be part of every DIY audio enthousiasts tool box.


and here is the review for the Jentzen cap

Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap 800VDC - 2% tolerance
Technical specifications(according to manufacturer): "Double foil super PP capacitor. Featuring extremely high quality German made foil, metalized with Aluminum and Zinc particles. Nitrogen filled instead of dielectric fluid, offering more foil per capacitor and eliminating risk of evaporation. Zinc / Aluminum Metallized Polypropylene, Voltage rating 0,10uF - 0,33uF: 1200VDC or 600VAC, Voltage rating 0,47uF - 22uF: 800VDC or 425VAC, Non inductive construction, Terminal leads are made from pure silver (1 mm in diameter), Capacitance tolerance : +/- 2%, Voltage rating: 800 - 1200VDC, Loss factor: 1K 0.00002 10K 0.00001, Non-polarized capacitor".
Sound: More transparent than the slightly less expensive Superior Z-Cap, very detailed. Sometimes too detailed for my liking which makes them less coherent than the Superior Z-Cap but this cn only be an issue in systems that are already on the bright side of neutral. They give some emphasis on the upper treble but are still more civilised than a Clarity Cap ESA for example; they have a so-called "high-end" flair. Objectively speaking they are better than the Superior Z-Cap but I prefer the Superior Z-Cap for it is more neutral presentation. I guess you could call the Jantzen Audio Silver Z-Cap the "audiophile" capacitor and the Jantzen Audio Superior Z-Cap the "musical" capacitor.


I must admit to not making any notes for comparison just yet. I'm waiting until I've levelled the TT properly before I start making any comparison. It's all good fun!!!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND EXPERIMENT PT XIII - Nearly finished.

This experiment has been rolling on for quite some time. I always wanted to try and external PSU for my Belt drive TT's, I've been unwilling to pay the price as I only use these TT's every so often, much preferring my Idlers and DD TT's. I've been after a PSU for quite some time and did consider buying a Heed Obelisk PSU as a last resort. Well, after much waiting I managed to track down a Isokinetic PSU.


30484


The blurb states.......

ISOdrive ISOKINETIK (http://www.cabezon.eu/product_info.php?products_id=125&osCsid=bb40144c5fe75d664340ec9b53ef9f8f)

"The ISOdrive regulates the turntable's motor drive via an intricate quadrature-quartz speed generator, providing unsurpassed speed accuracy and pitch stability. Packed into their hefty shielded steel casework (protecting the units from electromagnetic interference and vibration) are two mains-filtering transformers, and a high-current amplification circuit to assure that the power passed onto your motor is silky-smooth and constant, with no fluctuation and virtually immeasurable distortion."


So, there we have it, sounds like a decent PSU, not sure how much impact it will have on the TD160 TBH I didn't pay a great deal for it so I'll be happy to keep it in storage if I ever tinker with another TT. I'm nearly finished with this experiment, I'll not be buying any more components and the setup may change but this will be from items I already own or get chance to try. Once the TT feet, new PSU, arrive I'll be able to set things up properly and finally start making some listening notes...

Stay tuned... :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

REAL SOUND Experiment PT XIV (26887) - Big updates!

It's Sunday night so it must be time for another update. I really enjoy doing these updates, sure I don't get much feedback but 650 of you have read this since I last posted. Strangely, many packages arrived within a few days of each other which meant I could push this project to the next level. I had a big problem getting the TD-160 level and this was partly due to the repurposed Quadraspire racks that I had stored up in the attic and garage. I had just enough metal seperators to get things going but some refused to fully screw together meaning the TD-160 was slightly wonky. I overcame this by converting a four posted quadraspire rack to three! Everything now sits level.

https://i.ibb.co/tYy8JTM/WP-20220731-002.jpg

You will also see that I have terminated the Real Sound IC's with some very nice extremely high purity copper Duelund RCA's. Early listening tests have proven to be a big uplift over the Switchcraft RCA's recommended, initially, by Jeff Day. Here is a good picture of them in situ and you can get a better understanding of how I've modded the Quadraspire rack, it's now very, very firm.

https://i.ibb.co/54jS9T6/WP-20220731-003.jpg

The TD160 Oak plinth was supplied with a decent base board put some pretty naff feet which offered no isolation or ability to level the TT. As you can see from the below picture, they were not very good. I have removed these feet and fitted some stonking solid stainless steel replacements with ball-bearing isolation and fully adjustable. The old feet which were made from solid rubber have been repurposed and now live under my Radford preamp. I did this to offer the pre-amp a little more height to try and help ventilitaion and secondly mop up any vibration going back into the rack. I have no idea if this will help but it surely can't harm things.

https://i.ibb.co/RTxC4XH/WP-20220805-004.jpg

Here is a picture of the new feet before isolation. The TT plinth and the platter are now sitting level in all planes. I have also installed some new springs for the TD160. Closer inspection of the rubber grommets in the springs showed that they had started to deform badly. The grommets and springs have been replaced. I have also fitted a new belt which is doing the rounds at the moment, supposed to be the best thing since sliced Thorens but I've not built up much time on it yet. The ride height of the platter is 8mm and I have a fantastic pistonic bounce in the vertical plane, now transverse movement of the platter or tonearm board.

https://i.ibb.co/k17Ry71/WP-20220805-002.jpg

Extra benefits are said to come from an external PSU for the old Thorens TT's. PSU prices vary considerably from several hunderd pounds to over a thousand. I managed to pick up this Isokinetic PSU very cheaply, the TD160 had to have a slight modification to change to the plug. Several minutes later and we have a new PSU fitted. It's very nicely made and quite heavy. I'm very pleased.

And here we are, another picture showing the system. I have no tonearm fitted so the SME 3009 will be fitted in the next few days, this needs re-aligning again but this is quite easy. I'll also be fine tuning with my test record and Fozgometer.

https://i.ibb.co/sjHB6m8/WP-20220807-005.jpg

The PSU is placed as far away from the cartridge as possible and I'll try and generate a little height between it and the Pre-amp. Probably just need to do a little cable dressing at the back. Anyway, that's it for tonight.


Stay tuned... :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

The REAL SOUND experiment Pt XV - Switching, evaluation, optimisation.....

It's been a wee while since I wrote on this thread and lots of things have happened. Firstly the Celestion Ditton 15 speakers, Thorens TD160 Super and Radford phonostage have all been removed from the system, sure they made a nice sound but I do have other components and it's always good to experiment and evaluate. I originally wanted to keep things simple with this system in that I just wanted a power and pre amp, no external phonostage. Evaluation of the Radford pre-amp phonostage proved it to be ok, certainly nothing major to write about, quite staid in fact. I replaced the Radford phonostage for my EAR 834 clone, I've always loved this clone since day one and I still think it's an amazing piece of kit. I modded and designed it to specifically run with the Shure M55E cartridge (more of this later). The difference between the Radford and EAR are night and day, the EAR is bright, dynamic, vast soundstage, yada, yada!!!!

Here is the EAR 834 clone fitted into the system.



https://i.ibb.co/0r352h9/WP-20220828-002.jpg

The second thing to change was the TT, originally I had the SME 3009 and Thorens TD160 super, again it made a nice sound but not as good as this pairing...

https://i.ibb.co/KsH28zp/WP-20220828-003.jpg


The Heybrook TT2. I've lusted after one of these for ages, I especially wanted an early number with the heavy steel chassis, I think mine has a serial number under 500. The Alphason HR100s is something that has just been sitting around. I was spurred on by the fact that I've had the Alphason and Heybrook TT2 sitting around in the listening room for months. The Alphason was ready to go, the TT2 needed a little work. I bought a new belt, added some new oil, and fitted the IsoKinetik PSU. I also decided to try Shure SC35C + NeoSAS/Boron cantilever, the SC35C is modded with a aluminium body. The cart was aligned with Dr. Feckhert protractor, the Fozgometer I own is pointless with this fixed head tonearm. The TT2 and Alphason are missing a platter mat and a bias weight, both have been ordered. The Alphason customer service was immediate, I emailed on Sunday and got a reply on, well, Sunday! The bias weight is a little expensive but it gives me piece of mind to know that it's the real deal and not a bodged example from ebay. The SC35C & Alphason combination does have a problem in that the SC35C does throw an awful of resonance back into the tonearm. I intend to hopefully use my Shure M55E with a N44-7 SAS/B stylus, this means the cartridge/tonearm combination should be more compatible and the EAR 834 will once again be partnered with the cartridge that it was optimised.

Here's the Alphason + SC35C with boron JICO boron cantilever.

https://i.ibb.co/Q93KkLz/WP-20220828-008.jpg



The Celestion speakers got replaced for my IMF Supercompact II's. I also made a new pair of speaker stands, the speakers now stand 52cm from the ground and I've found from trial and error this seems to be the best height for my listening position. I've also fitted a pair of batpure super tweeters (wire with duelund cable). The IMF's are just such a better match with the 300b power amp, they make an exceptional sound, yes it's not upto 2022 standards but I'm extremely happy with what I hear. And here's a picture of what I see when I listen to them..

https://i.ibb.co/b3NHFtf/WP-20220828-001.jpg


Right I think that's it. More upgrades and tweeks later, stay tuned.... :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

The REAL SOUND experiment Pt XVI - Full loom.

Hi guys hope your all keeping well. I now finally have a full loom of Duelund cable sitting in the system. The last link in the chain was the tonearm cable. I'd been using a Nordost TYR cable, which whilst ok did have it's problems. The tonearm cable is a little rough and ready but it works and there are no ground loop hums which the Nordost cable used to be fantastic at transmitting. The deck also has a couple of new MM's, at the moment it's a three way shoot out which I'll go into more details later. It's now late and I will hopefully get some pictures and comparison notes up for the next installment.

Stay tuned.... :cool:

[zanash]

following this with interest !

suggestions ......
if you reinsert the td 160 ditch the sme arm [ I used several on my 160 and all were second best to my helius and well short of a logic datum s]. try making an aluminum arm board or one from perspex huge up grade from the stock or mdf types. if you havent, tried to get an even bounce on the tt suspension with no wobble or twist [its not easy ! well wasn't on mine !]

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi Pete,

Many thanks for taking interest in the thread. I've refurbished six or seven td160's now with quite a few different arms and carts. I still own a TD160 super but the Alphason TT2 is the better deck IMHO, it's very easy to set up and I think produces the better sonics. My 160 Super has a metal SME tonearm board and it's the best I've heard so far, I've done Homocopolymer, MDF, wood and a few others. I've big problems with the 160 suspension system. Virtually every 160 I've done has had knackered springs that are either rusty or well beyond their best. Some 160's have had Linn spring set replacements (WHY?). I don't really trust "new" spring sets from today's vendor's as you can't guarantee that the springs will be tuned to the correct Hz. The TT2 was a different kettle of fish altogether, setting up the suspension took <10 minutes, pistonic bounce no problems! I suppose in some ways I did ditch the SME arm for the Alphason, which, in it's day was described as being not that far behind the SME V (which I also own)! Hopefully, I'll do another update over the weekend.

[Jimbo]

The REAL SOUND experiment Pt XVI - Full loom.

Hi guys hope your all keeping well. I now finally have a full loom of Duelund cable sitting in the system. The last link in the chain was the tonearm cable. I'd been using a Nordost TYR cable, which whilst ok did have it's problems. The tonearm cable is a little rough and ready but it works and there are no ground loop hums which the Nordost cable used to be fantastic at transmitting. The deck also has a couple of new MM's, at the moment it's a three way shoot out which I'll go into more details later. It's now late and I will hopefully get some pictures and comparison notes up for the next installment.

Stay tuned.... :cool:

Looking forward to a full write up on the 3 way shoot out.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Looking forward to a full write up on the 3 way shoot out.

They are :-

Shure M55e with JICO M44-7x SAS/B stylus
Shure SC35C with JICO SAS/B stylus
Ortofon 2M Black.

So far after only 2-3 hours I think this is my preference.

1. 2M Black
2. SC35C
3. M55e

Unfortunately I will need to do MANY, MANY, MANY hours of research and listening to vinyl to make my decision.

[Jimbo]

Sensible approach to take Andy. I always spend hours , usually a week with anything new listening to a wide range of material so I can get an understanding how something sounds in my system.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Part XVII - A gaggle of MM's.

The system is really buzzing now, loads of different stuff going in and out of the system, several TT's, several pairs of speakers, a few phonostages, I now have a stable(ish) system. I had an amazing stroke of luck when I was offered the loan of a Ortofon 2M Black from Jimbo of this forum, who the hell is going to turn that down? I'm quite the Ortofon fan boy, I own Cadenza Black, SPU Royal N and Silver Meister II, the 2M Black is supposed to be one (if not) the very best MM on the market at the moment. Here is a picture of the 2MB looking extremely evil.

https://i.ibb.co/Y32zNZ0/WP-20220910-002.jpg

I'm currently enjoying a threesome (no not that one:bonk:) of MM cartridges. I also have these other two to play with as well. The Shure SC35C SAS/B and the Shure M55e SAS/B cartridges, both have tweaked a little further. The SC35C has a aluminium body whilst the M55E has a snake wood (not oil) body.

https://i.ibb.co/VqHVkJ8/WP-20220910-006.jpg

Trying to find time to listen to one of these cartridges for an extended period is very difficult, now I have to try and find time for three :doh:. I've paid no attention to power leads, as you can see, it's been a mish-mash of any kettle lead and spare 4 gang extension that I could find in the garage. I'm quite a tidy person by nature so this can't stay for very long. I've dug out some better cabling and will replace all the kettle leads for some screened beldon cabling alongside decent IEC and plugs, well it's can't hurt and it should be neater than the old setup.

https://i.ibb.co/1Jr2TK2/WP-20220911-001.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/K9mhF97/WP-20220911-002.jpg

I've also been playing around with speakers and tried my fully restored JR 149's, these are a truly excellent speaker and really do sing when you get a decent amp driving them, they are a little limited and not really a speaker for all occasions, unlike my IMF Super Compact II's of which I now use as the main speaker in the REAL SOUND system.

https://i.ibb.co/vZnBcXB/WP-20220910-004.jpg


So we now have a stable set of speakers, TT, phonostage, Pre.Power amp combo and a full loom of Duelund cabling. I'm now going through MM's, and then we can start making some notes about how the whole thing sounds.

Stay Tuned..... :cool:

[brian2957]

Nice one Andrew. James was also kind enough to loan me the 2M Black and I absolutely loved it. TBH I didn't want to send it back and when I did I really missed what it did in my system :( I'm not one for mucking about too much so I just followed his advice and bolted it on to a headshell. I don't know if I just got lucky or not but it sounded superb to my ears :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice one Andrew. James was also kind enough to loan me the 2M Black and I absolutely loved it. TBH I didn't want to send it back and when I did I really missed what it did in my system :( I'm not one for mucking about too much so I just followed his advice and bolted it on to a headshell. I don't know if I just got lucky or not but it sounded superb to my ears :)

Thanks Brian. The 2MB is a special cartridge, that's for sure. It's also a cartridge which needs careful partnering. I managed to set it up fairly quickly as I've had enough pain and tribulations setting up the "black" cartridges before. I'll have to see how this sounds in the system and then decide if I'm going to get one.

[Jimbo]

Good looking system there Andy. TT looks substantial.

[brian2957]

Thanks Brian. The 2MB is a special cartridge, that's for sure. It's also a cartridge which needs careful partnering. I managed to set it up fairly quickly as I've had enough pain and tribulations setting up the "black" cartridges before. I'll have to see how this sounds in the system and then decide if I'm going to get one.

Well, unfortunately I won't be buying one any time soon :(

[Wakefield Turntables]

Good looking system there Andy. TT looks substantial.

It's the feet that give it that look, they are mounted on ball bearings, something I've not tried before and they make levelling the TT very easy indeed.

[walpurgis]

Thanks Brian. The 2MB is a special cartridge, that's for sure. It's also a cartridge which needs careful partnering. I managed to set it up fairly quickly as I've had enough pain and tribulations setting up the "black" cartridges before. I'll have to see how this sounds in the system and then decide if I'm going to get one.

It's certainly a cartridge that interests me and I'd like to hear one, a good Ortofon can be very nice indeed.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Part XVIII - Another casualty.


Finally some listening and a brief appraisal of music from the REAL SOUND system. I honestly could not stomach a genre by genre comparison over
many hours of listening with the M55E and the 2MB, I compared just one track that I have a very unhealthy imtimate knowledge, that's Rhyme of
The Ancient Mariner by Iron Maiden. I tend to do a more indepth comparison of the 2MB against the Shure SC35C+SAS/B combo, this is a new cart and I think it will give the 2MB a slightly better run for it's money.


Shure M55E + JICO SAS/B MM cartridge tracking at 1.4g
Ortofon 2MB MM cartridge tracking at 1.7g


Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner - Iron Maiden - Original pressing.

The M55E presented an anaemic sounding set of vocals. I'm used to hearing a certain amount of snarl in Dickinson's vocals, it was there just not
as much as I'm used to. Vocally, Dickinson was central, but far away and recessed, usually you get him more intimate and a little more in your face. Bass was another problem, muted, punitive, lacking punch and power, just no authority. Nicko McBrain's drumming sounded reasonably well controlled but bass drum was lacking in presentation, cymbals sounded wishy-washy, a confused presentation which sadly was muted and recessed into the background. It's usually very easy to pick out each drum in his kit, Bass, snare, toms, cymbals, not so with the M55E. The M55E was unusually good with surface noise which is something the 2MB couldn't beat. The M55E was optimised with the EAR834 clone phonostage

Let's strap the 2MB back into place.

Less anaemia to vocals which whilst sounded centralised also sounded like him singing in a confined box. The 2MB managed a far more realistic
protrayal of the vocals with powerful output and a well centralised vocal presentation, snarl was restored! The bass on the 2MB compared to the M55E is somthing else. It's probably better to described what the 2MB did because the M55E could not replicate it. Bass was very well controlled, well defined, there is a section where you are simply bathed in bass as it panned from left to right and back again, this extended out forwards of the speakers not quite touching me but definitely a weird 3D holographic feeling. The M55E got nowhere near!! One small section of the song in some rainfall, it was heard quite meekly like a drizzle with the M55e but it sounded like a down pour with the 2MB. Drums became a joy to listen with the ability to easily determine individual pieces of McBrain's kit. The big downside to the 2MB is surface noise. The "Black" range of carts excel on surface noise and this no matter how hard or carefully you set the "black" range of carts, even with the use of a test record and a Fozgo meter!!!


I didn't think there was much more point leaving the M55E+JICO SAS/B strapped in place, 2MB restored. Sadly, the M55E has been vanquished and I now need to leave nostalgia behind. The M55E will always live in my stable of carts and I will always have a soft spot for the old thing but better carts exist (as we all knew).


TBH it's a pretty one sided contest. The M55E is 50 year technology, suspension probably not as good as it could be. The M55E did come with a newly fitted JICO SAS/B stylus which did produce a very nice sound but it wasn't in the same league as the 2MB, this 2MB example is an 800 hour example, so probably as good as it's going to get an probably on it's way out in another 500-750 hours time, crumps! The speakers were the IMF Super compact II's which are excellent with all genre's of music, Jazz sounds amazing, heavy metal (well heavy), vocals intimate, instrumental and electronica, all played very well indeed. The IMF's are in no way the last thing in musical presentation but they are the best in the REAL SOUND system. I would probably think that the M55E and 2MB would sound even better through my ATC 50 active speakers but that's not the point, it's all about how they sound in the REAL SOUND system.

[brian2957]

Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?

[CageyH]

Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?

It used to be….
Seems flipping expensive now.
How much better is it than a 2M bronze?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice write up Andrew. The 2MB is excellent for the money ain't it ?

Cheers. £515 is a lot for a MM, not the most expensive, some boutique brands cost more.


It used to be….
Seems flipping expensive now.
How much better is it than a 2M bronze?

£515 for the 2MB
£295 for the Bronze

[brian2957]

It used to be….
Seems flipping expensive now.
How much better is it than a 2M bronze?

Sorry Kevin, never heard the Bronze.

[shane]

I’ve never understood the recent veneration for those midrange Shure cartridges from the early ‘70s. The s 44s and 55s were pretty much outdated by about 1974 and the big sellers were the M75 series. The M75/6 was cheap and cheerful and went out by the dozen stuck into Garrard SP25s, making fairly gruesome noises in student’s bedrooms through Amstrad 8000s and Wharfedale Dentons. Meanwhile their parents joined in the fun with M75EDs bolted to Pioneer PL12Ds with Rotel RX402s (which were actually rather lovely) and pairs of Linton XPs. These were the mainstays of HiFi shops nationwide and systems like that sold by the thousand but they were the clapped-out Anglia and Mk2 Cortina of the HiFi world. The contemporary Ortofons, ADCs and such like we’re on a whole different level even then, so to compare the Shures with modern Ortofon equivalents is a bit like trying to do a serious comparison between a Cortina and a new BMW. It wouldn’t stand a chance.

[Jimbo]

Great read Andy of you experience with the two cartridges. The 2M is expensive but once heard never forgotten for good and some bad. Surface noise is an issue but it’s the price you pay for that vivid dynamic all revealing presentation

The bronze may be warmer and quieter and is certainly cheaper but one thing every person I know who has heard the two say it misses the excitement of the black.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I’ve never understood the recent veneration for those midrange Shure cartridges from the early ‘70s. The s 44s and 55s were pretty much outdated by about 1974 and the big sellers were the M75 series. The M75/6 was cheap and cheerful and went out by the dozen stuck into Garrard SP25s, making fairly gruesome noises in student’s bedrooms through Amstrad 8000s and Wharfedale Dentons. Meanwhile their parents joined in the fun with M75EDs bolted to Pioneer PL12Ds with Rotel RX402s (which were actually rather lovely) and pairs of Linton XPs. These were the mainstays of HiFi shops nationwide and systems like that sold by the thousand but they were the clapped-out Anglia and Mk2 Cortina of the HiFi world. The contemporary Ortofons, ADCs and such like we’re on a whole different level even then, so to compare the Shures with modern Ortofon equivalents is a bit like trying to do a serious comparison between a Cortina and a new BMW. It wouldn’t stand a chance.

Hi, Shane, I'll try and explain why I'm doing this. Firstly we all know that the M55E is a very old and outdated cartridge but with a little tweaking it can be something that can sound very very good indeed, this is mainly a new body and a new stylus and cantilever. This process is quite costly but I mainly do it for fun
and experimentation. It also depends on why your comparing the cartridges. In this instance it's all about how a system can emotionally stimulate me, that's the whole point of the REAL SOUND philosophy. I can do analytical very well, I have a Ortofon Cadenza black + SME V-12 and 1210 TT that's probably as clinical and laboratory sounding as you'll get and in some instances I love using that system. This whole thread has been about trying to listen to music (for me) in a different way, not about THD, VTA angles, etc, etc, more about how I feel when I listen to things and seeing if I can use that experience for positive therapeutic gain rather than worrying about how a certain valve or headshell should sound.

The M55E does sound quite a lot better on my Garrard 301 and SME 3012 arm, not so good on the Alphason+TT2 combo, so in this instance it didn't really move me in any great way, it didn't connect, so it got put back in the cart box for another day. I've had a real blast trying out the M55E on the TT2+Alphason combo, it's been fun and interesting to see how old technology when mated with some new technology can perform. So, the REAL SOUND experiment will continue, just messing about, trying stuff, seeing how it sounds and seeing if it captivates or moves me emotionally in any way. The experiment is working, I feel happier through the day pondering what can be done next in the system. ;)

[shane]

I do get what you’re trying to do here. I think it’s a brilliant idea to try and put the technology into the back of your mind and concentrate on the emotional experience of the music. To a large extent that was the idea driving Peter and Stuart when they set up Heybrook, that led to the HB2 and HB1. When you start listening to music rather than HiFi it’s surprising how much highly respected gear falls by the wayside and how some of the overlooked stuff suddenly shines, so it’s certainly worthwhile digging out things you might normally ignore for re-evaluation.

Still gives me a jolt seeing those old Shures being resurrected though!

[Wakefield Turntables]

I do get what you’re trying to do here. I think it’s a brilliant idea to try and put the technology into the back of your mind and concentrate on the emotional experience of the music. To a large extent that was the idea driving Peter and Stuart when they set up Heybrook, that led to the HB2 and HB1. When you start listening to music rather than HiFi it’s surprising how much highly respected gear falls by the wayside and how some of the overlooked stuff suddenly shines, so it’s certainly worthwhile digging out things you might normally ignore for re-evaluation.

Still gives me a jolt seeing those old Shures being resurrected though!

Brilliant! I'll try and not jolt you too much, I might need your advice again at some point in the future. :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Part XIX - A few thoughts on the system.

I've been listening to the system now for a few days and I've begun to understand it's strengths and weaknesses. The who system has just worked so well together that I'm having a blast listening to stuff, sure my other systems can do things better but this little system does fun in spades. Most people ask how the cabling sounds. Well, bass is abundant, it's not the most taut but rather tuneful. Vocals can sound very very good especially close mic'd MONO recordings, plenty of timbre to the vocal chords of most performers. The TT2 has been the biggest surprise, it really is a deck for all occasions and does every genre very well indeed. I've had everything on the deck over the last couple of days, classical, prog, heavy metal, jazz, female vocals, electronica, folk etc, all sound very good.

The Alphason + 2M Black have matched exceptionally well. The "black" cartridges have a house sound that is very analytical, bass abundant, PRaT, but not so good with surface noise. The 2MB is very critical when beening loaded and likes to see very specific levels of capacitance. My EAR 834P clone has the ability to use loading plugs, so far, I've used nothing with the 2MB and got the best results. A slightly darker noise floor but just with a little hiss, not bad for the 834P which is known to hum like a bugger (mine silent)!! I did make a tonearm cable out of Duelund cable for the Alphason, this replace a Nordost TYR + eichmann silver bullet cable, and I can honestly say that it not only equals it's performance but beats it! My soundstage is quite holographic and it's quite easy discern width and depth, yes each band member has their own space in the soundstage. I will at some point go into more depth about how things sound with the cabling but not tonight, it's been a long day. I will just end by saying that it's a very addicitive and emotionally captivating system.

Stay tuned...

[Jimbo]

Sounds like you are having fun and an interesting journey with the system. I bet the Alphason + 2M is extracting a lot from recordings. I get the holophonic soundstage especially with vocals out front and 3 dimentional.

The 2M will never be dead quiet, I just live with it for all the other amazing stuff it does.

[shane]

Brilliant! I'll try and not jolt you too much, I might need your advice again at some point in the future. :)

Don’t worry, I’m pretty jolt-proof! Always happy to help.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Part XX - Getting series.

For ages now I've had the "REAL SOUND" system just sitting in a corner and it's never been a system I've taken too seriously until now. The trigger was the need for my SME 3012 to be repaired due to it loosing one channel every now and then. I decided to organise my spare kit into a third system and make this a real system for the REAL SOUND system. The system is as follow :-

Garrard 401 in a Martin Bastin plinth, SME V-12 tonearm with shure SC35C cartridge and JICO SAS/R stylus.
Cables are Yannis Tome SPD-4 custom build tonearm cable, and then we have Real Sound IC's and speaker cable, all power cables are Belden + MS Audio pliugs. Pre Amp is a Radford Renaissance SC-25 powered with Mullard M8137, Power Amp is a Italian built 300b DIY jobbie with Genelex 300b valves, phonostage is a EAR 384P clone powered with Mullard M8137 valves. My speakers are a pair of fully restored, recapped and slightly modded IMF Supercompact Mk2.

Here's the system.

https://i.ibb.co/7RbGvwd/IMG-0620.jpg

Now, a few things have been added and tweaked.

Firstly the cabling has been updated. All the power leads have decent pure copper furutech IEC's, all power leads are now screened Belden power cables with MS-Audio plugs. The achilles heel to this is that I'm using a Tesco 4 plug extension, maybe at some point in the future I'll change this.

https://i.ibb.co/F3ZdQNV/IMG-0654.jpg

All the RCA's on the IC's have been moved over from SwitchCraft brass/ gold plated jobbies to Duelund pure copper OHNO RCA's.



https://i.ibb.co/XxLmcy8/IMG-0655.jpg

Weak link.... some of the cabling.

https://i.ibb.co/cYZhYrJ/IMG-0647.jpg

I have been investing some time with regards the "infrastructure" of the system. I decided I'd make some new bamboo and Sorbothane footers for all the various pieces of equipment to live on. A £3 bamboo mini chopping board proved very good for making footers. :eek:



https://i.ibb.co/R6fLkMc/IMG-0651.jpg

And some Sorbothane from when I was messing around with the Technics 1210

https://i.ibb.co/Mncvypy/IMG-0624.jpg

You probably can't spot the changes so I'll tell you. More bamboo under the 401 and the preamp. I found these boards as a couple of spares in the garage. I thought they might help as the Quadraspire rack I own isn't the best. :(. And finally, probably the best addition so far to the REAL SOUND system, how about a pair of Duelund wired Batpure super tweeters for the IMF's ?


https://i.ibb.co/n6JttNf/IMG-0646.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/YfwPyQV/IMG-0644.jpg

I'm still evaluating this system. The JICO SAS/S needs a few more hours before the cantilever has loosened a little to reveal it's true presentation, additional hours are being added onto all the other cables if you believe in the cable burn in process. I need to also assess that I've not over damped things. The SME V-12 is on the most minimal amount of damping. I think that Bamboo+Sorbothane footers could damp things too far so I'll evaluate over the next three weeks. I've also got a couple of other tweaks with the tonearm base and cartridge which might yield better results. So far things are sounding very very good.

Stay tuned.. :cool:

[Jimbo]

Nice to see a vinylista still pushing things forward!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice to see a vinylista still pushing things forward!

Churz! :cool:

[vintagesteve]

A/B/X testing, that'll sort it out.

[Wakefield Turntables]

PART XXI - Tweak it baby!

The trials and tribulations of running several valve systems and loads of vintage gear! Tracking down a lost channel on one system is proving difficult, I think it could be a dodgy tonearm cable. I now have to repair a power amp, well replace some speaker binding posts which got damaged years ago and I decided to finally get around to replacing them, I honestly don't think they are the cause of the lost channel but it dosen't hurt to have new and get a job out of the way! My third system is sounding really really really good. I decided to try my Croft Epoch preamp in this system and it just didn't gel so the old Radford SC25 has gone back into place and things just sound correct. The new JICO stylus for the SC35C cartridge is now more or less run in. I think I've added 40-50 hours now so i'd say the suspension and stylus should be broken in. The new Croft phonostage sounds sublime, it just make music. I took a big gamble on this and I'm glad to say that it fits in well and is a keeper. The croft has replaced my old EAR834P clone (which I'll be keeping) I have a soft spot for that clone.

I have been experimentng with bamboo and sorbothane footers under all my equipment in System3. It's been quite weird as I think I've over damped in places and some of the vitality of presentation has been robbed. I have experimented with variations of these two materials and have to say that soundstage does appear to change depending on how and where I damp. Presently the power amp has 6mm sorbothane under it's feet whilst the preamp has 6mm sorbothane under its feet and then sits on a bamboo board. The croft has a similar setup to the preamp. My 401 is sitting on a bamboo board which has been treated with silent coat on the underside. All-in-all things sound very good. I would say that System3 is virtually complete but I need to do some further tweaks with turntable setup and maybe cable dressing (which isn't the best). I'll soon be able to sit down and make some notes about sonic presentation.

Toodle pip and stay tuned... :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

PART XXII - Sweatin the small stuff.

As I've grown older, I've learned to be patient. I've been looking at the 301 system again and think the loss of a channel might be a tonearm cable altough I can't prove this despite borrowing another tone arm cable last week from a forum member (you know who you are, thanks)! So, the cable is going back to it's builder to see if he can diagnose any problems. Meanwhile, things have been moving forward on System3 also known as the "REAL SOUND" system in that I decided to finally install my Panzerholz SME tonearm mount which I made ages ago. So, here's a pretty crappy shot of what it looks like.

https://i.ibb.co/nm9hrH1/IMG-0674.jpg

And, yes I do think it makes a difference, subtle, but it all counts. System3 still needs tweaking and today hasn't been that day, unfortunately. I did manage to plug in my big Sondex S100 into the system for a quick couple of hours and have to say that KT88's in the system sound just as good as 300B's. I must keep things real and remember that System3 was cobbled together to explore Duelund products, old MM carts, and 300B valves. The Sondex has had a little repair work in that I had to replace a speaker binding post. Finally I thought I'd post this for all those that enjoy messing around with old MM carts. I love Shure carts and I think I'd like to try a Shure V15 VXmR at some point with a JICO SAS/(R) or (S) after market stylus. Ah well, that's for another day.

https://i.ibb.co/VmPsKSx/shure.jpg

As ever, stay tuned.. :cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

PART XXIII - Sound update.

I've been listening to the REAL SOUND system now for several weeks and every week has added a few hours to the various components sitting in the system. I'm sure that the speaker cables, the caps on the rebuilt x-o's on the speakers, the new JICO stylus and all the power leads have now "BROKEN" in, if you believe in that sort of thing. The main hardware of pre-amp, phonostage and amp have had years of usage so I think it's safe to say that they are well and truly broken in. Overall the sound can only be described as vibrant and energetic. It plays plenty load on a few watts, that's for sure! I've found this system not to be as analytical in nature as my other systems and is in continual need of good quality recordings to get the very best sonics. It's probably the IMF speakers which are the weak link in the system but are the best of a bunch including Rogers JR149's, Heybrook HB2's and Celestion Ditton 15's which I have restored and sitting around the house. So the IMF's make up the reference speakers in this little system. I've been through two phonostages and was extremley lucky to drop on a 5691 based phonostage designed and built by Glenn Croft which has made things really come to life.

The system is not without it's faults and one of them being my quest to minimise vibration getting to the TT' I used what I thought were sparing small amounts of sorbothane in a few areas which I thought might be beneficial in this quest. It turns out I was completely wrong so I have removed bamboo and sorbothane footers and just have the TT and premap sitting on bamboo boards at this moment. I may have to do some experimentation with using bamboo under the power amp and phonostage but that's for another day. I'll finiish tonights update with a few basic thoughts on the soundstage.

The soundstage truly fills the entire width of the listening room and has a very lively presentation but not one that you will quickly fatigue. Detail is very very good indeed. Instrument placement is not quite as good as my other systems but perfectly adequate and very enjoyable. I could easily keep this as my only system and be extremely happy with it. I now have the really horrid task of listening to more vinyl over the weekend and trying to write some more detailed notes about how the thing sounds. :lol:

Stay tuned...

[Jimbo]

Sounds like your in an ideal place. I. think when everything gels in a system and it then gets out of the way and you can focus on the music you are definitely in the right ball park regarding system synergy/compatibilty?

[Gazjam]

https://media.tenor.com/Welp1BUg0ykAAAAC/this-deathmonkeyxl.gif

[Wakefield Turntables]

Pt XXIV - Infrastructure & tweaks parts 2

It's that night again. I have my drinking partner with me tonight. https://storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png


https://i.ibb.co/V3t9st0/IMG-0719.jpg


I have used my Sunday well and that I have finally managed to do a system MOT where I clean everything. In total I think I took over two hours cleaning everything that I could clean. So cleaning duties having included.



Cleaning every RCA I could find
Cleaning every valve pin I could find
Cleaning every female IEC socket
Cleaning every pin on every plug
Cleaning the insides of the pre and phonostage
Cleaning every shelf on the rack.
Checking very valve.


I took some photo's. So here is a picture of the Radford preamp with a shed load of Mullard M8137's supposed to be the best ECC83 every made, I'm sure you guys have some comments/opinions regarding this.





https://i.ibb.co/3S8mR3R/IMG-0726.jpg



Inside the Radford preamp after a decent clean. To be fair it was already very clean but it's now even cleaner. All the valve bases got a decent clean with IPA.





https://i.ibb.co/d0fRm79/IMG-0727.jpg



The next thing to have some TLC was the Croft phonostage I purchased. OMG what a complete mess inside. I looked like it had never been cleaned since new. I must have used 30 cotton buds with IPA to get it to this stage. I removed the valves cleaned every pin, cleaned the valve bases with IPA. I cleaned the insides of the phonostage. Every RCA socket was cleaned and even the female IEC. The outer casing with really filthy. I polished the outside of the case, it's sill not perfect but it looks a whole lot better when I look at it sitting on the rack.



https://i.ibb.co/Gnpw4DX/IMG-0725.jpg



Both units reassembled with a bit of spit and polish.



https://i.ibb.co/6Yx4J5X/IMG-0722.jpg



Another picture with everything sprawled over the floor.


https://i.ibb.co/qRXR3FZ/IMG-0723.jpg



Now a few details about the system. I have been carefully assessing things and system three needs a few things.



1. New pair of 300b valves. One of the valves is coming apart. The quality of Golden Lion 300b valves is shocking. The pins gold plating very quickly scrapes away and one the things is excessive now slightly faulty, tapping it can get generate hum and a rustling noise through the right channel. I bought this pair second hand so I have no idea how many hours have been put on them. So I need a new pair. The 300b rabbit hole is a massive one. I might just get a pair and then at some point next year 2024 buy my ultimate buy and forget pair.



2. I also need a single Mullard M8137 as I have had to replace one of these with a JJ ECC83S in the preamp. Don't get me wrong the preamp is doing amazing things but it's just one of those silly annoying things that bugs me that I don't have a full complement of M8137's sitting in the pre-amp.



3. I've managed to give the speakers a little more breathing room and they don't sit quite so close to the rack. I have idea how or if indeed this helps but it makes it easier for me to change settings on the preamp without me having to get up off my arse. Everything is now within arms reach!!



4. I have slightly increased volume to the left channel by one half notch to compensate for a -6db difference in my hearing to my left ear. Again difficult to ascertain how/if things have improved massively.



5. I have worked on the cartridge alignment today. Things are still not perfect and need some work, maybe bank holiday monday for that. The JICO stylus was loaded at 0.97g and whilst this sounded better it now sounds better still at 1.25g. SME arms don't accurately load the cartridge with the weight selected.


6. Tonearm and cartridge compliance matching. Again things are ok, not great. I might start to look for a new cartridge to match the SME V-12. Ortofon 2MB could be the way forward. I'm keeping a look out.


7. Binding posts. The binding posts on my Power amp are naff. I did find four CMC binding posts in my spares box but it turns out that they are brass . I think I'm going to remove some pure copper Cardas binding posts from my Ditton 15 speakers and try them on the amp. I will have pure copper cardas binding posts from both the speakers and power amp.



8. Power leads. I need a new extension, that's for sure. The TESCO 20M extension is working well but I think there is better to be had. https://storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/rofl.png I might even make up four new power leads with solid core and see if this helps the sonics are further. It's a cheap experiment that might yield better sonics.







Just a few more pictures


The cartridge now loaded at 1.26g. I really cut not be bothered to jig this around any futher.


https://i.ibb.co/nbZ53Rn/IMG-0720.jpg


The saga of the binding posts.


https://i.ibb.co/kQMzvTV/IMG-0716.jpg


So, that's it for another night. Stay tuned.... :cool:

[Jimbo]

Lots of hard work there and quite satisfying thing to do on a Bank Holiday weekend?

The Crofty is coming along nicely and I am sure the new binding posts will improve things a tad. Look forward to some listening impressions maybe sometime soon?

[Wakefield Turntables]

The REAL SOUND system has been upgraded again!



I've been away for a couple of weeks and nothing has been brewing. My 300b amplifier will be going away to have some tweaks, mainly some nice new copper binding posts. I salvaged these Cardas pure copper binding posts from my Celestion 15 speakers, I hardly use them. This saved £108.



:cool:https://i.ibb.co/5Mxxvr1/IMG-0739.jpg



So with the money saved I bought a pair of these.


https://i.ibb.co/Z8FL2z0/3.jpg


No idea what they sound like, a complete punt! Anything is better than the shocking build quality of the Gold Lion 300b's, never again!



I also did this to my Shure SC35C



https://i.ibb.co/zS65KF2/IMG-0738.jpg



The SC35C is nude, got rid of the stupid blue bit. It bugger all apart from get in the way. I've also improved the cart setup, still a little out but better than before.


Finally some good news for my 301 and my main valve system. My tonearm cable has been repaired so the 301 shoudl be spinning soon and then I can check out the Ortofon Silver Meister II SPU / FGS experiment https://storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png


As ever, stay tuned. :cool:

[zanash]

1. New pair of 300b valves. One of the valves is coming apart. The quality of Golden Lion 300b valves is shocking. The pins gold plating very quickly scrapes away and one the things is excessive now slightly faulty, tapping it can get generate hum and a rustling noise through the right channel. I bought this pair second hand so I have no idea how many hours have been put on them. So I need a new pair. The 300b rabbit hole is a massive one. I might just get a pair and then at some point next year 2024 buy my ultimate buy and forget pair.



your rustling noise....is a dirty valve base and or valve pins. I used to suffer from this on my various valve amps. Stabliant 21a is an effective cleaner and contact enhancer, which cleared all my issues.

[Jimbo]

1. New pair of 300b valves. One of the valves is coming apart. The quality of Golden Lion 300b valves is shocking. The pins gold plating very quickly scrapes away and one the things is excessive now slightly faulty, tapping it can get generate hum and a rustling noise through the right channel. I bought this pair second hand so I have no idea how many hours have been put on them. So I need a new pair. The 300b rabbit hole is a massive one. I might just get a pair and then at some point next year 2024 buy my ultimate buy and forget pair.



your rustling noise....is a dirty valve base and or valve pins. I used to suffer from this on my various valve amps. Stabliant 21a is an effective cleaner and contact enhancer, which cleared all my issues.

Good tip that Pete, I have some contact cleaner and feel some of my valve pins could do with a squirt!