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Jerseymark
07-09-2016, 19:27
Would anyone be able to provide some advice on power supplies/controllers for a Garrard 401?

To cut a long story short I ordered a Phoenix Roadrunner and associated power supply and this has now fallen through as the dealer cannot supply.

I am now looking for advice on an alternative which can be easily obtained. If any AOS members have had any good experience with alternate units I would appreciate your feedback.

My budget is about 600.

Thanks for your help.

Mark

REXTON
07-09-2016, 19:50
Well this is weird I'm sat in Jersey as I type this :eek:. Speak to Jez at arkless electronics, he could make you something. Basically you have the pheonix which is what I have or a Nigel's speed controller which is what I also (nearly) own. These are two cheapest and you'd have to spend 1k and above to get something else.

Jerseymark
07-09-2016, 19:57
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for you're reply. I have spoken with Phoenix and the unit would now need to come from the USA which ups the cost a bit.
I actually have the boards for Nigel's speed controller and this may be an option if Jez or another could build the unit for me.

Off to my local the Royal St Martin's now, if your in the area pop in, I would be happy to buy you a pint.

Regards
Mark

Ali Tait
07-09-2016, 20:03
MRCU sell one, a new offering from Nick Goreham.

PaulStewart
07-09-2016, 20:53
Loricraft make the official Garrard speed controller and it is the best on the market, but not cheap.

Jerseymark
08-09-2016, 05:22
Thanks Ali,
I did note the MRCU unit when I searched for power supplies but I couldn't find anything else on the unit. May be worth further investigation though.

Jerseymark
08-09-2016, 05:34
Thanks Paul,
I have read previously about the Loricraft units but the cost of even the base model is as you say not cheap.

I also remember reading a post some time back which mentioned that the units were similar to the Wave Mechanic supply produced by Martin Bastin but this may not be correct.

Ammonite Acoustics
08-09-2016, 06:41
I have an earlier version of the Martin Bastin PSU for decks like the Garrards and my Thorens TD-124; and it's a very handy thing for optimising both voltage and frequency, which can be independently balanced against judicious use of eddy braking for best speed stability and sound quality. My TD-124 definitely sounds better with just a touch of eddy braking applied - I did remove the magnet once, thinking that I didn't need it with Martin's PSU feeding precise power to the motor, but the deck sounded musically 'wrong'. It seems like these old shaded pole motors used in Garrards and TD-124s like to see a light but constant load, which Martin subsequently confirmed to be the case.

Anyway, I do recommend seeking out one of Martin's beefy adjustable PSUs for the Garrard, which is likely to be one of the least costly options available, designed by someone who knows a great deal about these old decks.

Ali Tait
08-09-2016, 06:49
Thanks Ali,
I did note the MRCU unit when I searched for power supplies but I couldn't find anything else on the unit. May be worth further investigation though.

I've heard one running a 401 and it was a worthwhile improvement.

Spectral Morn
08-09-2016, 08:01
Loricraft make the official Garrard speed controller and it is the best on the market, but not cheap.

And they currently don't make it.

REXTON
08-09-2016, 08:47
I've been in Marks position before and that's why I suggested the pheonix or the Nigel's speed controller. All the other PSU are either no longer available or simply too costly. I bought the pheonix and have never looked back. The only downside to the pheonix is that you can't change voltage levels and thus vibrations going into the motor. This can be achieved with the Nigel's speed controller and its accurately produces 33.3 rpm and cleans the power supply as well which is something other PSUs can't do. I don't doubt that the other mentioned PSU's could be better but would you sooner spin vinyl on your favourite deck or wait till you get to 90 for an example to turn up? I know what I'd do.

REXTON
08-09-2016, 08:52
Mark,

if if it helps I've written a review of the pheonix psu +tachometer and also a description of how to mod your deck to use the kit on a 401/401 in my garrard 301 restoration thread in the idle drive forum sub section.

shane
08-09-2016, 09:15
More on the MCRU/Nick Gorham one :

http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/mains-products/1371-longdog-audio-quartz-mains-regenerator.html?search_query=garrard&results=4

http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6565&p=135197&hilit=Garrard#p135197

Jerseymark
08-09-2016, 12:33
I have an earlier version of the Martin Bastin PSU for decks like the Garrards and my Thorens TD-124; and it's a very handy thing for optimising both voltage and frequency, which can be independently balanced against judicious use of eddy braking for best speed stability and sound quality. My TD-124 definitely sounds better with just a touch of eddy braking applied - I did remove the magnet once, thinking that I didn't need it with Martin's PSU feeding precise power to the motor, but the deck sounded musically 'wrong'. It seems like these old shaded pole motors used in Garrards and TD-124s like to see a light but constant load, which Martin subsequently confirmed to be the case.

Anyway, I do recommend seeking out one of Martin's beefy adjustable PSUs for the Garrard, which is likely to be one of the least costly options available, designed by someone who knows a great deal about these old decks.

Hi Hugo,
I was originally after one of Martin's PSU and have discussed the situation with Martin when he recently serviced my 401. As you Martin is of the opinion that a touch of eddy braking is beneficial.

Unfortunately I could not persuade Martin to build me a power supply as he is to busy with other projects.

Jerseymark
08-09-2016, 12:40
Mark,

if if it helps I've written a review of the pheonix psu +tachometer and also a description of how to mod your deck to use the kit on a 401/401 in my garrard 301 restoration thread in the idle drive forum sub section.

Andrew,
Thanks, I have read your thread and was hoping to follow the same route. The only option of getting Phoenix PSU and tacho is now via a USA dealer which is not my preferred option.

I have corresponded with Bill at Phoenix and he has advised they now have no UK or EU dealers which is why I am looking at alternatives sourced in the UK.

Regards
Mark

REXTON
08-09-2016, 13:27
I bought direct from Bill when the /$ rate was in a healthier position. TBH I'd swallow the extra 150 it's probably going to cost you and just get one from Bill, it saves a LOT of messing around.

daytona600
08-09-2016, 13:51
Hi Mark

Phoenix and he has advised they now have no UK or EU dealers which is why I am looking at alternatives sourced in the UK.

Phoenix totally out of the blue sent a email to myself & all EU dealers saying they no longer supply outside the US
& stopped supplying dealers in europe i actually found out 1st from another dealer in europe
230v/50hz version + taxes , shipping & vat will be @ least 30% higher now
compared to my price which was @ $=

montesquieu
08-09-2016, 15:46
Anyway, I do recommend seeking out one of Martin's beefy adjustable PSUs for the Garrard, which is likely to be one of the least costly options available, designed by someone who knows a great deal about these old decks.

Agreed I had one on my old 401 and it made a difference - made it sound almost as good as a TD124 :ner:

Jerseymark
08-09-2016, 21:16
Agreed I had one on my old 401 and it made a difference - made it sound almost as good as a TD124 :ner:

Hi Tom,

I have watched out for a Martin Bastin PSU for some time now but have actually never seen one for sale. Having spoken with Martin on the subject I don't think he made that many which is probably the reason I have not seen one for sale.

If a good condition unit did come up for sale I would be interested.

Regards
Mark

Arkless Electronics
09-09-2016, 10:16
I can confirm that I can build up a Nigel's speed controller to order (you would need to obtain the PCB and IC from.. well I presume this Nigel geezer. Ask Andy(Rexton)).
I do also have a design of my own "waiting in the wings" as it were but I'm rather reticent about ploughing anything into further R&D for something which I may (or may not) sell one of now and maybe one more in six months time so the Nigel's is the main option for now....

Jerseymark
09-09-2016, 17:14
I can confirm that I can build up a Nigel's speed controller to order (you would need to obtain the PCB and IC from.. well I presume this Nigel geezer. Ask Andy(Rexton)).
I do also have a design of my own "waiting in the wings" as it were but I'm rather reticent about ploughing anything into further R&D for something which I may (or may not) sell one of now and maybe one more in six months time so the Nigel's is the main option for now....

Hi Jez,
How much would it be for you to build a Nigel's speed controller if I already have the boards?
Thanks Mark

Arkless Electronics
09-09-2016, 17:39
Hi Jez,
How much would it be for you to build a Nigel's speed controller if I already have the boards?
Thanks Mark

If you have just the boards (I would prefer it if you could source the hard to get XR2206 IC as well. You could ask Rexton (Andy) where he got his maybe? I may have one if I look hard but not sure:scratch:) and I supply everything else, we are talking 600 ish depending on chosen casework. That price is including a case at around 80...

daytona600
09-09-2016, 18:07
other way is to use a VFD variable speed drive / Inverter
Garrard is 19watts to small be be classed as a fractional horsepower motor
VFD used in industry for decades to control motors & they go up to 100,000+ HP
micro drive 0.37kw ( 370watts ) are less than 100 & made by the million by the likes of ABB

Chip IC Drives could also be used

nb - if i doubt consult a professional electricity is dangerous

http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/siemens_micromaster_420_e.html

http://www.abb.com/productguide/product.aspx?tabKey=2&gid=TEMP.FIDRI68581940&c=47c0c2d0bbb9bdc0c1257855004cefe8&db=seitp322

Jerseymark
09-09-2016, 22:48
If you have just the boards (I would prefer it if you could source the hard to get XR2206 IC as well. You could ask Rexton (Andy) where he got his maybe? I may have one if I look hard but not sure:scratch:) and I supply everything else, we are talking 600 ish depending on chosen casework. That price is including a case at around 80...

Jez Thanks for you're reply, I have two of Nigel's boards but have not got the IC.

However I am not sure this the ideal controller for the Garrard. Ideally I would like a controller which can adjust voltage and frequency but this does not seem to be available at present.

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 13:47
Jez Thanks for you're reply, I have two of Nigel's boards but have not got the IC.

However I am not sure this the ideal controller for the Garrard. Ideally I would like a controller which can adjust voltage and frequency but this does not seem to be available at present.

The Nigel's DOES adjust both frequency and voltage! I've had a look for the XR2206 but it seems I must have used it at some time...

There are plenty of alternatives to the XR2206, some of which are likely to be better than the XR2206... which makes it strange that this device was chosen... I wonder if it was designed several years ago when it was still readily available? Unfortunately none of these are compatible with the Nigel's PCB.

I can also offer a speed controller of my own design with slight improvements over the Nigel's but it would be a bit more expensive.

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 14:23
Having now doe a bit of googling it seems the alternatives to the XR2206 are all also obsolete.... No problem though as I can build an even better discrete sinewave generator....:)

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 14:56
Having now doe a bit of googling it seems the alternatives to the XR2206 are all also obsolete.... No problem though as I can build an even better discrete sinewave generator....:)

Hi Jez,
What did you have in mind and how much would it cost?

The boards I have are marked "Turntable motor speed controller" Version: 1.3 NS 05/13. I am not sure if this is the current board that Nigel supplies but I am not aware of any changes to the layout.

Thanks
Mark

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 15:34
Hi Jez,
What did you have in mind and how much would it cost?

The boards I have are marked "Turntable motor speed controller" Version: 1.3 NS 05/13. I am not sure if this is the current board that Nigel supplies but I am not aware of any changes to the layout.

Thanks
Mark

That's exactly the finished board I have here in front of me (for Andy, Rexton. STILL waiting for delivery of casework from China...). It should be not too difficult to obtain the obsolete XR2206 IC as they were made and used in large numbers for about 20 years. You will have to obtain it yourself though as there is no point in you paying me to trawl websites and ring suppliers when this is not a technical issue.... As I said in an earlier post it may be an idea to ask Andy where he got his from. I've heard that there can be the common problem these days of fake IC's so be careful...

The improved discrete version would be something I would use in an all Arkless Electronics speed controller which would be rather more than the Nigel's, mainly because I would not expect to sell more than 4-6 and so I need to recoup R&D costs from only a few sales... I would make it a bit better than the Nigel's in terms of waveform purity but I couldn't say if the sound would be any better, so for the budget concious, the Nigel's is certainly the way to go. This would be, as I mentioned in an earlier post, about 600 all in, exact price being variable according to what casework you choose etc (about 90 for empty case alone in this example... yes folks parts can be a small fortune when not buying 10,000 at a time!)

I guess many are waiting for a solution at say 200 but it costs more than that for just the parts when making one off's! It is, like many such things, rather a catch 22... if they were being made 10.000 at a time the cost of the parts would go down by around 75%... but there is nowhere near the demand to justify making them as anything but one off's, to order....

paul(555)
11-09-2016, 16:22
Nigel has a stock of tested NOS XR2206s available, in fact I've just bought a couple, find him in the traders section on Lenco Heaven. Only 4 plus postage.

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 16:48
Nigel has a stock of tested NOS XR2206s available, in fact I've just bought a couple, find him in the traders section on Lenco Heaven. Only 4 plus postage.

Sorted;)

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 16:50
That's exactly the finished board I have here in front of me (for Andy, Rexton. STILL waiting for delivery of casework from China...). It should be not too difficult to obtain the obsolete XR2206 IC as they were made and used in large numbers for about 20 years. You will have to obtain it yourself though as there is no point in you paying me to trawl websites and ring suppliers when this is not a technical issue.... As I said in an earlier post it may be an idea to ask Andy where he got his from. I've heard that there can be the common problem these days of fake IC's so be careful...

The improved discrete version would be something I would use in an all Arkless Electronics speed controller which would be rather more than the Nigel's, mainly because I would not expect to sell more than 4-6 and so I need to recoup R&D costs from only a few sales... I would make it a bit better than the Nigel's in terms of waveform purity but I couldn't say if the sound would be any better, so for the budget concious, the Nigel's is certainly the way to go. This would be, as I mentioned in an earlier post, about 600 all in, exact price being variable according to what casework you choose etc (about 90 for empty case alone in this example... yes folks parts can be a small fortune when not buying 10,000 at a time!)

I guess many are waiting for a solution at say 200 but it costs more than that for just the parts when making one off's! It is, like many such things, rather a catch 22... if they were being made 10.000 at a time the cost of the parts would go down by around 75%... but there is nowhere near the demand to justify making them as anything but one off's, to order....

Jez,
Is there any improvements that can be made to Nigel's controller to improve waveform purity or would this require you to work on your own design?

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 16:55
Nigel has a stock of tested NOS XR2206s available, in fact I've just bought a couple, find him in the traders section on Lenco Heaven. Only 4 plus postage.


Thanks Paul, I wasn't aware of that.
I have ordered, 2 WAVEFORM GENERATOR 1MHz EXAR XR2206 from a French dealer "rimlok" hopefully these are correct and ok.
Regards
Mark

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 17:04
Jez,
Is there any improvements that can be made to Nigel's controller to improve waveform purity or would this require you to work on your own design?

Yes I can do that but obviously at extra cost. Also only on 33rpm version (not strictly true but to do it on a version that can electronically select all the speeds would make it financially unattractive to all but the most keen as slightly different versions of the extra circuitry would need to be built for each speed and extra switching designed to accommodate it).
You can obviously still select other speeds by the turntables own speed change mechanism so I wouldn't think a 33rpm only version was a problem (it's what Andy ordered).

REXTON
11-09-2016, 18:14
Mark,

you might want to invest in a piece of kit to clean the mains or regenerate the old sine wave. I use a PS AUDIO P10 but they cost nearly 5k so that might be a bit excessive. There are plenty of bits of kit which can filter and clean the mains as well as regenerating the sone wave, just do some research on the net.

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 18:23
Yes I can do that but obviously at extra cost. Also only on 33rpm version (not strictly true but to do it on a version that can electronically select all the speeds would make it financially unattractive to all but the most keen as slightly different versions of the extra circuitry would need to be built for each speed and extra switching designed to accommodate it).
You can obviously still select other speeds by the turntables own speed change mechanism so I wouldn't think a 33rpm only version was a problem (it's what Andy ordered).

Jez, Can you advise how Andy decided on the case used or did you give a range of options?

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 18:58
Jez, Can you advise how Andy decided on the case used or did you give a range of options?

I specified that it would need to be either ALL aluminium or plastic/aluminium with minimum required size and he choose it...
Something plastic with aluminium panels will start at 20 ish but look pretty naff and at other extreme really nice all ally case can be well over 100.

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 22:00
I specified that it would need to be either ALL aluminium or plastic/aluminium with minimum required size and he choose it...
Something plastic with aluminium panels will start at 20 ish but look pretty naff and at other extreme really nice all ally case can be well over 100.

Jez If I have read your replies correctly if I supply the board and IC you will build the controller for about 600 including a case to the value of about 80. Is there a standard configuration or would I have to send you details of what I would like built?

If the later is required is there anywhere that you could refer me to for ideas.

Will I need to also purchase the box as well

Jerseymark
11-09-2016, 22:01
I specified that it would need to be either ALL aluminium or plastic/aluminium with minimum required size and he choose it...
Something plastic with aluminium panels will start at 20 ish but look pretty naff and at other extreme really nice all ally case can be well over 100.

Jez If I have read your replies correctly if I supply the board and IC you will build the controller for about 600 including a case to the value of about 80. Is there a standard configuration or would I have to send you details of what I would like built?

If the later is required is there anywhere that you could refer me to for ideas.

Arkless Electronics
11-09-2016, 22:03
Jez If I have read your replies correctly if I supply the board and IC you will build the controller for about 600 including a case to the value of about 80. Is there a standard configuration or would I have to send you details of what I would like built?

If the later is required is there anywhere that you could refer me to for ideas.

Will I need to also purchase the box as well

I'll PM you.