View Full Version : Denon DL S1 again......
carruthersesq
29-08-2016, 19:51
Hi guys
I post a couple of weeks ago my excitement at getting my hands on one of these carts. Well two weeks on I'm afraid to say it's not blown me away the way I was expecting.
The cart it replaced was an AT33ptg/ii and I can't say it is any better than that in any way. This leads me to think I'm not hearing it at its best.
So my set up is a Funk firm F5 tone arm, which has variable mass ability, should I set mass lower or higher?
My phono stage is a Primare R32, which on MC setting the gain is 62dB, with loading options of 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, 500 ohms and 47 kohms. Having tried all of them I prefer 47kohms which reading lots of threads on this cart is not a popular choice of loading?
The S1's output voltage is a lowly 0.15mV, is my phono stage's gain to low? Do I need an SUT and switch the stage to MM? If so what ratio would be best?
Is a head amp a better option?
This is a whole new world to me so any opinions/advice welcome.
Thanks Steve.
Wakefield Turntables
29-08-2016, 20:08
Yes at 0.15mv output I would say you need a SUT. My Cadenza black and SPU both benefit from a SUT.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2016, 20:14
My Technics MC cart is 0.1 mV and I have no problems at all using it with my phono stage or headamp....
carruthersesq
29-08-2016, 20:38
Don't get me wrong, it works with my set up, I was just expecting more from it having read so much about it and was wondering if I could improve my set up by adding an SUT?
Ali Tait
29-08-2016, 21:39
It won't give of it's best unless it is set up absolutely spot on IMHO. Head amp is a good sounding option with these.
With a gain of 62dB, the 0.15mV output of the cartridge will be increased to a healthy 189mV. So absolutely no need for an SUT.
However if you prefer to use the MM input (with a gain of 41dB), then you need a step-up transformer having a 10:1 turns ratio.
Given the specification of the DL S1:
•Output: 0.15 mV.
•Output Impedance: 40 ohms.
•Stylus: Special elliptical tip.
•Frequency range: 20 Hz to 70 kHz.
•Tracking force: 1.1 - 1.5 g.
•Compliance 14 x 10-6 cm/dyne.
•Weight: 7.0g.
the 500Ohm setting ought to be ideal, whereas 47K is, IMO, too high.
What tracking force are you using, and have you experimented with altering the SRA/VTA?
carruthersesq
29-08-2016, 22:14
the 500Ohm setting ought to be ideal, whereas 47K is, IMO, too high.
What tracking force are you using, and have you experimented with altering the SRA/VTA?[/QUOTE]
Thanks Barry.
I've tried at 500ohm and it was very similar to 47k.
I'm tracking at 1.4g, have tried 1.2g-1.5g.
montesquieu
29-08-2016, 23:16
It's a typical Denon, 40 ohms output impedance - on a phono stage 500 -1k ohms should be the setting. Though you might not hear a huge difference with 47k, it's fair to say.
I would ignore the ratio on any SUT you buy and focus on getting one designed for the Denon 103 (if it's Japanese it'll have a 40 ohm setting). I suspect this will make the difference.
It may still help to tweak your setup. I personally would set the mass a bit lower with the Denon. A compliance of 14 at Denon's weird way of measurement would mean it's actually quite high compliance, 30ish in normal numbers, rather higher than the AT (10 in AT's calc, which is the same as the one Denon uses, 20ish in normal numbers which is middling). But of course if it makes things even worse, try the opposite :D Many Denons notably the DL-103 family in my experience need a decent amount of mass to make them sing, however in looks and specs the S1 is much more like the DL-304, a different family. (Having said that, impedance is the same). The Funk arms are very good though and should handle this cartridge no bother.
Personally ... not being the biggest Denon MC fan in the world ... for all the price difference I would take the AT33-PTG/II over the S1 any day. The AT is a cracker and very musical. Regardless I would say they aren't drop in replacements, the Denon will require a very different setup.
If I'm not mistaken the DL-S1 is an aircore design? I haven't heard one but I'm under the impression aircore cartridges in general tend to have their strengths in things like transparency and certain "finesse", while often perhaps somewhat lacking in the bass & boogie factor departments? I might be full of it though - but if there's any truth to that it would make sense the AT33PTG would be the more impressive/fun cartridge while the Denon might come to it's own listening to classical or perhaps well recorded jazz - something where things like fine detail and good portrayal of ambience really pay off and let it play to it's strengths?
daytona600
30-08-2016, 11:57
Personally ... not being the biggest Denon MC fan in the world ... for all the price difference I would take the AT33-PTG/II over the S1 any day. The AT is a cracker and very musical. .
+ 1 on the denon & are these not £1k + & obsolete now
AT33PTG is a cracker for the money & works a treat in the Funk Arm
for denon money I fitted both to a LSD/F5 ortofon quintet black or Cadenza Red & no special needs MC input required or SUT
carruthersesq
30-08-2016, 17:53
Thanks Tom, Kai and Scott.
I have a either a few weeks to do or a new cart to find. I do think I'll try an SUT before I make my final decision though.
I've used a pair of Sowter 1299 SUT's into a MM phonostage with 40db gain to good effect. Although I am currently using a Paradise MC stage set to 220R.
I can't find them listed on Sowters site any more though.
Hi Steve,
Just sent you a PM. Sorry I missed your message today, as I was out. I'll bell you tomorrow when I'm free, hopefully at a time that also suits you! :)
Just quickly though, properly set-up and partnered, the DL-S1 blows any AT cartridge I've heard (including the 33PTG, as good as that is) out the water, in terms of any area of musicality you care to mention, and simply pulling information out of the grooves in a very accurate and entertaining way.
However, they're fussy buggers to optimise, and in my experience work best in light, but rigid headshells, on typical Jap-style tonearms, through valve MM phono stages/head amps with plenty of gain.
I can assure you that I wouldn't use a DL-S1, or have waxed lyrical about it, if it weren't up to such praise... Whether we can get it to work its magic in your system, however, is the challenge faced, but I'm confident we can sort it out.
Until we have a chat tomorrow, could you outline your system again, specifically in detail all the analogue bits. Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
carruthersesq
30-08-2016, 20:34
No problem Marco. Any time before 10.30am and then after 3pm I should be free, a few meetings inbetween.
My current set up is a Funk Firm Little Super Deck (LSD) with Funk Firm F5 tone arm, wired as it came out of the factory. The head shell is the stock headshell that it came with. My phono stage is a Primare R32 (which I feel is better and just as adjustable as the Trchord Dino2 with Dino+ psu or Whest Two I had before it). This feeds my Naim Supernait2 which drives my Naim SBL's.
And again, thanks everyone for their input.
Mmm... I think I can see what your issue might be. We may have a bit of a challenge, Steve, getting a DL-S1 to perform optimally in that sort of set-up, especially with Naim gear, without making some significant changes.
Would you be averse to trying a valve phono stage? Otherwise, I wouldn't entertain using an SUT with your current kit, although a head amp could work well. If you're not aware, head amps are very different from SUTs, being active solid-state devices the same as the rest of your electronics.
Your T/T and arm is fine, though. My fear is that in trying to successfully accommodate a DL-S1, you could end up disrupting your system, and perhaps what you currently enjoy about it. In that respect, it might be better slotting in a cartridge that's happier in your set-up, without making significant changes, but that decision is yours :)
Marco.
carruthersesq
30-08-2016, 21:54
Interesting Marco.
I had no idea of the difference between an SUT and head amp so thanks for the clarity. I also have no preconceived ideas on how to get this bad boy singing. I do have my name down to try Jez's demo head amp so I'll wait until that test to rule out the Denon me thinks.
I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.
With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.
Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 00:43
I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.
With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.
Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.
I'm sorry but this is total flooby dust from the brothers Grimm..... The amount of gain effects nothing but how high you need to turn up the volume control;)
Lol - we disagree on that one too, Jez. My experiences in that area concur very much with Blake's. I agree that it *should* just be about volume, but there also appears to be a knock-on effect, in terms of creating a 'weedy', gutless sound, when the gain structure is sub-optimal.
More tomorrow, off to bed now! :goodnight:
Marco.
I'll leave SUT suggestions to others with experience in that area but in terms of active gain 62 dB is not going to cut it in the vast majority of systems with that cartridge. It would probably sound dead and anemic.
With active gain, either with a head amp or straight into a MC stage you will want around 67 dB of gain. I would expect that cartridge to really snap into focus and come alive with that. Being short 5 dB of gain with a very low output cartridge like that is a recipe for poor performance.
Shoot for 67-68 dB of active gain or pick up an SUT that will give you the equivalent and then re-evaluate things. Or move on to another cartridge which is better suited to the gain structure of your phono pre. The AT 33 PTG is pretty much perfect for it so it is no surprise that you're experiencing what you are.
Inclined to agree.. 62 is minimal to get some punch and dynamics into the signal. If its not high enough then just amplifying it at other end wont compensate imo. Late 60's or even 70db will make a big difference .
Inclined to agree.. 62 is minimal to get some punch and dynamics into the signal. If its not high enough then just amplifying it at other end wont compensate imo.
Precisely my experience :thumbsup:
Marco.
walpurgis
31-08-2016, 09:24
There's not a lot to be lost by trying a decent used SUT, they can be sold on again at the paid price easily enough if not liked, as there seems to be a fair demand for them.
I'd say give it a try, but for goodness sake get a good quality item. Poor SUTs are horrible.
The Fidelity Research FRT-3 is the minimum standard in my view, it works well with the Denons and is decently transparent and musical. It can be bought for around £200 second hand. Anything lesser will just be another unsatisfactory experience.
topoxforddoc
31-08-2016, 10:14
Alternatively you could sell your Denon and buy the ZYX that didn't happen the first time round. Even the standard R50 Bloom is excellent. There are a number of dealers RFC, GT Audio etc.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 11:33
Lol - we disagree on that one too, Jez. My experiences in that area concur very much with Blake's. I agree that it *should* just be about volume, but there also appears to be a knock-on effect, in terms of creating a 'weedy', gutless sound, when the gain structure is sub-optimal.
More tomorrow, off to bed now! :goodnight:
Marco.
There is nothing to agree or disagree on. It's simply technically wrong;)
Yes, because you're taking what's being written too literally. That's the problem with an absolutist, 'black or white' mindset; it fails to recognise the (often rather important) shades of grey in between... ;)
Anyway, as with other aspects of audio we disagree on, I *know* what I can genuinely hear, which is all I care about :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 11:59
Yes, because you're taking what's being written too literally. That's the problem with a rather absolutist, 'black or white' mindset; it fails to process the (often rather important) shades of grey in between... ;)
Anyway, as with other aspects of audio we disagree on, I *know* what I can genuinely hear, which is all I care about :)
Marco.
We'll never agree but you are simply 100% black and white wrong. When you too have the knowledge to design phono stage's you will be in a better position to debate the matter;)
Thats arrogant Jez. Do you ever read your own posts?
We'll never agree but you are simply 100% black and white wrong. When you too have the knowledge to design phono stage's you will be in a better position to debate the matter;)
Jez, as Grant points out, that's extremely arrogant, and something, as you know, we don't tolerate here, so if you wish to remain a member of this forum then kindly refrain from making those remarks.
I'm not arguing about the technical design of phono stages; I'm simply relating what I can genuinely hear. Whether or not the words I'm using to describe that effect are correct or not doesn't detract from the fact that I'm hearing it, so in that context, it matters not a jot what I know or don't know about designing phono stages!
Contrary to what you may think, one can have valid views on issues relating to the sound quality, aspects of audio, even if one doesn't know how to build anything. That's a FACT you might like to consider, as it's patently something you seem unable to grasp - and in that respect your views (that's all they are) carry no more authority than anyone else's.
Now, I suggest you drop it there and invoke the 'let's just agree to disagree' clause, and move on, before we seriously fall out.
Marco.
We'll never agree but you are simply 100% black and white wrong. When you too have the knowledge to design phono stage's you will be in a better position to debate the matter;)
There are many engineers, Walt Jung among them (he has a bit of design experience as well-google him) who disagree with you.
http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/design-handbooks/P2%20Ch6_final.pdf
Take note of the first page. And we're actually talking about a .15 mV signal here.
Gain matching is probably one of the least understood areas among audiophiles, especially those using low output moving coil cartridges and is critical to fully realise optimal sound quality. Screw up the first level of amplification (the phono preamp) and all the gain in the world ahead of it cannot fix the problems with signal to noise, dynamic range and other aspects of fidelity. Yes, you can get sound by turning it up but it will not be close to what you can achieve with proper gain matching between phono pre and cartridge.
Too little is just as bad in the end as too much and both present problems. The issue will be further complicated by what's ahead of the cartridge and phono preamp: gain in the linestage, efficiency of speakers, etc. so there's a bit of a moving target here and many variables.
With low output moving coils (sub .5 mV) my experience is that the gain window is very small in any given system, probably 2 dB or less. But I have a phono preamp with infinitely variable gain so it's relatively easy for me to ascertain that.
Other issues to worry about as well, such as proper setup, loading, etc, but if you don't get the gain right with low output MC's, you are not even close to realising their potential. And the OP is pretty far off in this case in the gain area (again, with respect to the vast majority of systems) so that is where he should be looking first.
Based on my own (extensive) experience in that area, I completely concur.
The effect we're discussing is *sonically* rather like when recording music at home or in a studio, to disc, tape or whatever, in terms of if the initial sound levels applied by the engineer are insufficient, thus causing music reproduced to sound rather 'lifeless' and lacking in 'punch', then no amount of turning up the volume, further down the chain, on a preamp, is going to cure that problem.
There has to be sufficient 'input level' in the first place, in order to ensure that the recording sounds 'punchy' and dynamic at all volumes. It's similar if the output signal of a cartridge isn't amplified sufficiently at stage one in the amplification chain (inside the phono stage), and as Blake correctly says, then no amount of adjustments carried out further down the chain will fix that problem.
Quite simply, by the time that the music signal hits the volume control on your preamp, the gain structure providing that signal must be fully optimised, if the best possible sound quality is to be obtained. Not enough gain, and you'll end up with a rather weedy, lifeless sound, and too much will cause saturation, and thus distortion. It MUST be *just right*.
This is more critical with vinyl replay, using very low-output MCs, such as the DL-S1, than anything else!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 13:17
It's supposed to be "arrogant". Far less arrogant though than folks who can barely put a 13A plug on believing themselves to be in a position to take on a professional electronic engineer of many decades experience at their own specialised subject... which REALLY boils my piss!!!!
Would you tell Magdi Yacoub how to do a heart transplant Marco..... and then if he tells you you're wrong come on with the "well that's just you're opinion" bit?
I have for weeks now been considering whether or not I actually want to be a member here any more and over just this one very point...
The site's ethos seems to me to be "Know fuck all about a subject? Then welcome! Please do pontificate about it at length and give others advice based on your zero knowledge of the subject!! Oh and if you happen to be an expert on the subject, then shut the fuck up lest you offend the people who know nowt by telling them they're wrong"
My own moral compass as both an engineer and a member of the human race is that if I see falsehoods being propagated, on a matter I happen to be an expert on, then I will correct them. One would have thought a hi fi forum would be grateful to have on board a professional who is willing to give free technical advice on a daily basis. ... but no, it seems not upsetting the apple cart or stepping on anyone's toes is infinitely more important than actually knowing what you are talking about:doh:
One could advise someone to connect live and neutral the wrong way round and pour water into the amp without worry... but if you come on and call the person giving such stupid advice an idiot then it's you who will be in trouble.... and probably have Marco shouting that "it's just your opinion that pouring water into the amp is a bad thing... it's not that black and white, my experience tells me....."
It is your website Marco, paid for by yourself and generally a fine forum it is... However, I do take great exception to the way you only allow opinion, views that match your own, free reign and that if anyone REALLY disagrees with you they will be told to shut up or else.... I guess you have a prerogative as owner of the site to make it your own plaything where only "yes men" are welcome... but morally I find that repugnant.
I'm a man who "stupidly" puts principles above ALL ELSE and have in fact resigned from several well paid jobs over them (including the one with Musicl Fidelity), so if my speaking my mind and saying what I really think has just got me banned then so be it....
Customers with ongoing business with me will need to contact me BY TELEPHONE. The number is in my signature.
Ciao.
Give it a rest Jez. No-one's banning you. I'm simply outlining how I expect members of this forum to behave, and we've been here before. It's not your opinion that's the problem; it's the manner in which you express it. You're also completely wrong in terms of what this forum is about, and have a rather skewed view, to say the least, as to how things happen here.
The problem is, I don't think you even realise what it is you're doing wrong (and that winds people like me up to screaming levels), to even begin to try and fix it... :doh:
However, I can tell you that it's a MAJOR reason why you're not getting the levels of business that you should, because when you're indirectly insulting the intelligence of your potential (subjectivist-minded) customers on this forum, by writing the kind of stuff you do, it's no wonder that they don't want to give you their money!!! :rolleyes:
And I say that as a genuine observation, without malice. I also know it, factually, to be true. You might wish to think about that...
Marco.
It's supposed to be "arrogant". Far less arrogant though than folks who can barely put a 13A plug on believing themselves to be in a position to take on a professional electronic engineer of many decades experience at their own specialised subject... which REALLY boils my piss!!!!
Would you tell Magdi Yacoub how to do a heart transplant Marco..... and then if he tells you you're wrong come on with the "well that's just you're opinion" bit?
I have for weeks now been considering whether or not I actually want to be a member here any more and over just this one very point...
The site's ethos seems to me to be "Know fuck all about a subject? Then welcome! Please do pontificate about it at length and give others advice based on your zero knowledge of the subject!! Oh and if you happen to be an expert on the subject, then shut the fuck up lest you offend the people who know nowt by telling them they're wrong"
My own moral compass as both an engineer and a member of the human race is that if I see falsehoods being propagated, on a matter I happen to be an expert on, then I will correct them. One would have thought a hi fi forum would be grateful to have on board a professional who is willing to give free technical advice on a daily basis. ... but no, it seems not upsetting the apple cart or stepping on anyone's toes is infinitely more important than actually knowing what you are talking about:doh:
One could advise someone to connect live and neutral the wrong way round and pour water into the amp without worry... but if you come on and call the person giving such stupid advice an idiot then it's you who will be in trouble.... and probably have Marco shouting that "it's just your opinion that pouring water into the amp is a bad thing... it's not that black and white, my experience tells me....."
It is your website Marco, paid for by yourself and generally a fine forum it is... However, I do take great exception to the way you only allow opinion, views that match your own, free reign and that if anyone REALLY disagrees with you they will be told to shut up or else.... I guess you have a prerogative as owner of the site to make it your own plaything where only "yes men" are welcome... but morally I find that repugnant.
I'm a man who "stupidly" puts principles above ALL ELSE and have in fact resigned from several well paid jobs over them (including the one with Musicl Fidelity), so if my speaking my mind and saying what I really think has just got me banned then so be it....
Customers with ongoing business with me will need to contact me BY TELEPHONE. The number is in my signature.
Ciao.
Ah the old yes men routine again.:doh: its always trotted out by folk who are wrong.... No yes men in the mod room, of that i can assure you.!
Your trouble is because you can do things you think your the only person or folk with similar skills who can comment on it.
Its a bit like an expert plaster coming in and buggering up your walls but you cant say its buggered up coz your not a plastering expert.
You really need to take step back and have a look at yourself with the same critical eye you use on others mate.
You really need to take step back and have a look at yourself with the same critical eye you use on others mate.
^ This ^ (in big red-flashing neon lights).
The big problem here is that Jez (as a somewhat 'extreme objectivist') is posting on what is largely a staunchly subjectivist audio forum, so consciously or not, he's continually struggling to fit in, especially when his views/mindset is diametrically opposed to that of the majority of members - and so, quite frankly, it's inevitable that clashes such as this occur, especially when on certain 'hot topics', the 'irresistible force meets the immovable object'! ;)
It's rather like a Celtic fan, sitting amongst the Rangers fans at Ibrox ('cos that's the only place where he could get a ticket), trying desperately to keep his emotions in check when his team score a goal - or a staunch labour supporter attending a Tory party conference, trying to applaud the 'party line': eventually the cracks are going to show and take their toll....
That's why before you register on any on-line forum (audio-related or otherwise), make sure that you agree in principle with the ethos/rules of the site you're joining, otherwise at some point down the line, sooner rather than later, it's all liable to go tits up!
Ultimately, the onus is on YOU to fit in with the forum and community you're joining, not vice versa.
Marco.
paulf-2007
31-08-2016, 16:12
A good musician doesn't make a good music teacher.
Good analogy, Paul, and in this instance, most apt! :)
I'd be tempted though to put the word 'necessarily' after 'doesn't'.... The message would be more complete that way.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
31-08-2016, 17:15
Back to the OP's problem!
It is important to understand that we all have different musical and sound preferences, so something that flicks one person's switch may do absolutely nothing for another. Forum enthusiasm for any bit of equipment has to be interpreted in the context of enthusiasts' own equipment, and most importantly their own musical tastes and established preferences (or indeed their biases). I have found this out for myself the hard way, at least twice, and one of those was with a SUT!
So, if the OP was happy with the AT33PTG in the Funk deck, which is very good and far more flexible in terms of cartridge/mass compatibility than most other 'tables, then perhaps the Denon is simply not to his taste and maybe never will be. So, having tried all the usual loading permutations, no amount of new investment in SUTs and other partnering equipment is likely to address the situation. I know that things like SUTs do make a difference, but the essential character of the Denon should be more than apparent with the OP's existing gear. Sometimes it's harmless fun to explore different options like SUTs, but there is a real risk of chasing tails and rainbows resulting only in money spent, not music enjoyed.
All that said, I don't have a personal recommendation for an alternative cartridge, particularly since I've never heard a Zyx, but anyone liking what the AT33PTG does should consider the AT-33SA with its Shibata tip that should bring a more cultured character to the AT33's existing strengths.
If you have to turn the amp up to compensate for low gain further in the chain back surely you are working the amp harder, possibly getting into clipping before the volume level is satisfactory? That isn't desirable.
Also high output carts like the Stantons I have sound very 'beefy' compared to my more refined MM carts with much lower output. I've always assumed the beefiness is due to the high output. I cant replicate that effect with my Nagaoka even with the levels turned right up.
If you have to turn the amp up to compensate for low gain further in the chain back surely you are working the amp harder, possibly getting into clipping before the volume level is satisfactory? That isn't desirable.
Indeed - that's why the 'gain structure', in that respect, in any system has to be right, or amps can run out of 'puff'.
There is also the oft-mentioned comments/urban myth, which unfortunately have seemingly turned into 'fact', that listening to music on the 'phono' input of your amp (thus when replaying vinyl) automatically means that you have to turn the volume up more than when you're listening to CD, as vinyl is a 'lower-level source'...
Yes it might be, in terms of voltage output, but it doesn't have to be that way in terms of the overall levels of loudness achieved!
Therefore, you've got folks thinking that it's perfectly normal to have to crank up the volume to, say, 1 or 2 o'clock on the dial, when listening to vinyl, as opposed to CD, at say 8 or 9 o'clock, simply to achieve respectably loud listening levels.
Bullshite! :nono:
That may be the case if the gain structure, with vinyl, in your system isn't optimal, but not when things have been done properly. My listening levels, and playback position on my preamp are almost identical with vinyl or CD, simply because I've ensured that the signal level outputted from the phono stage to my preamp is as 'healthy' (almost) as the one coming from my CD player - and the difference that can make to the sound is enormous!
That's one of the reasons why I think SUTs and head amps can work really well in some systems where the gain structure, with vinyl, needs a 'boost'. Unfortunately budget to midrange phono stages, or some vintage ones, often don't offer sufficient levels of gain to 'drive' the weeny signal from very low-output MCs - and with the resultant sonic consequences.
Also high output carts like the Stantons I have sound very 'beefy' compared to my more refined MM carts with much lower output. I've always assumed the beefiness is due to the high output. I cant replicate that effect with my Nagaoka even with the levels turned right up.
Yes, I agree, but that's an artificially 'pumped up' sound your hearing, almost like the effect of a graphic equaliser, coming from some ridiculously high-output Stantons, which are mainly designed for DJ use, to ensure some 'bangin tunes' are delivered to the dance floor, in an environment where 'loud is proud' and subtlety is an afterthought. It certainly isn't hi-fi!
Your Nagaoka is providing you with a much more neutral/well-balanced take on the music :)
Marco.
Yes, I agree, but that's largely an artificially 'pumped up' sound your hearing, almost like the effect of a graphic equaliser, coming from some ridiculously high-output Stantons, mainly designed for DJ use, to ensure some 'bangin tunes' are delivered to the dance floor, in an environment where 'loud is proud' and subtlety is an afterthought. It certainly isn't hi-fi!
Your Nagaoka is providing you with a much more neutral/well-balanced take on the music :)
Marco.
Of course. My point, or question was: is that 'pumped up' sound down to the high output, or something else?
Regarding amplifiers it is pretty common on an integrated amp with built in phono to need the volume higher with vinyl. I cant recall owning a single one where this was not the case, and I've owned dozens of them. Active pre amps I have owned were the same too, so there must be a reason for it. My guess would be so they are not in danger of being overloaded by a very high output cartridge, whereas the line level sources, tuner, tape, CD and so forth will have more narrow parameters in terms of their output level.
I'm just guessing there, maybe someone knows? They must do it that way for a reason.
Of course. My point, or question was: is that 'pumped up' sound down to the high output, or something else?
Regarding amplifiers it is pretty common on an integrated amp with built in phono to need the volume higher with vinyl. I cant recall owning a single one where this was not the case, and I've owned dozens of them. Active pre amps I have owned were the same too, so there must be a reason for it. My guess would be so they are not in danger of being overloaded by a very high output cartridge, whereas the line level sources, tuner, tape, CD and so forth will have more narrow parameters in terms of their output level.
I'm just guessing there, maybe someone knows? They must do it that way for a reason.
probably so. some may have a switch for hi and normal, but most are pretty inadequete. As Marco said, mine is pretty much same level as cd and rpi
As is mine since the phono stage and cd player are very close in output level and the pre-amp is passive anyway. But I use MM so no issue with low output anyway.
As with most people here, I suspect, if my extensive personal experiences say the textbook is wrong, then the textbook is wrong, or at least missing a trick. It wasn't like it handed down from God.
Of course. My point, or question was: is that 'pumped up' sound down to the high output, or something else?
Mostly down to the stupidly high output of the Stantons (some are quoted at up to 8mV, FFS :eek:), although, that aside, their inherent sonic signature, based on how the cartridge has been designed and the parts it uses, will also have a significant impact. The "beefy" sound you're referring to, however, is mostly due to creating the effect of a loudness switch, from artificially boosting the output.
Regarding amplifiers it is pretty common on an integrated amp with built in phono to need the volume higher with vinyl. I cant recall owning a single one where this was not the case, and I've owned dozens of them. Active pre amps I have owned were the same too, so there must be a reason for it. My guess would be so they are not in danger of being overloaded by a very high output cartridge, whereas the line level sources, tuner, tape, CD and so forth will have more narrow parameters in terms of their output level.
I'm just guessing there, maybe someone knows? They must do it that way for a reason.
Yes, the reason is twofold:
1) The phono stages on the majority of integrated amps are shit. Many are simply an afterthought, certainly compared with dedicated, high quality, standalone devices.
2) The active preamps/phono stages you've owned in the past haven't been very good, or were sub-optimally designed.
Trust me, it doesn't have to be that way! I learned that when moving from Naim gear, and as soon as I plugged in my first valve MM phono stage/SUT (or head amp) - the difference in gain (and thus loudness levels possible) with vinyl replay, compared with what I was used to before, was staggering!
Marco.
probably so. some may have a switch for hi and normal, but most are pretty inadequete. As Marco said, mine is pretty much same level as cd and rpi
CD will always sound marginally 'louder', simply because of the nature of its much higher-voltage output. However, there should NOT be massive discrepancies in playback levels between vinyl and CD, *if* the signal from the cartridge used is being properly amplified in the first place.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 18:27
^ This ^ (in big red-flashing neon lights).
The big problem here is that Jez (as a somewhat 'extreme objectivist') is posting on what is largely a staunchly subjectivist audio forum, so consciously or not, he's continually struggling to fit in, especially when his views/mindset is diametrically opposed to that of the majority of members - and so, quite frankly, it's inevitable that clashes such as this occur, especially when on certain 'hot topics', the 'irresistible force meets the immovable object'! ;)
It's rather like a Celtic fan, sitting amongst the Rangers fans at Ibrox ('cos that's the only place where he could get a ticket), trying desperately to keep his emotions in check when his team score a goal - or a staunch labour supporter attending a Tory party conference, trying to applaud the 'party line': eventually the cracks are going to show and take their toll....
That's why before you register on any on-line forum (audio-related or otherwise), make sure that you agree in principle with the ethos/rules of the site you're joining, otherwise at some point down the line, sooner rather than later, it's all liable to go tits up!
Ultimately, the onus is on YOU to fit in with the forum and community you're joining, not vice versa.
Marco.
A reasonable analogy Marco yes.
You will not be surprised to learn that I regard 90% of everything said on forums as complete bollocks.... as that's what it is. I aim to correct it where possible, which is apparently not welcome...
it seems to be an extreme case of the "we're sick of experts" nonsense we had during the brexit fiasco.... Well I say that people who design hi fi know infinitely more about how it works etc than those with no technical knowledge who are end users. It stands to reason really!
If we were talking about matters where subjective opinion is all that really matters, such as the sound of loudspeakers, I wouldn't have any issue with it. However when it comes to electronics there is almost always a right way and a wrong way, a black and white situation if you like and I will not tolerate being told by people with zero knowledge of electronics that my professional judgement and knowledge, honed over decades is "just opinion and no more valid than Steve the brickies opinion..." when we are talking actual technical matters, my trade.
Oh and for maybe the 30th time I am not an objectivist. I am though someone who will not sit by and regard something that is a completely false statement as "a valid opinion". Some may listen to some numpty claim that there are fairies at the bottom of their garden... and that bricks float... and regard it as a valid opinion worthy of debate. I tell them they are a fucking idiot, to their face or on line. That's me.
I stick by everything I said earlier and will be not be taking up your PM invitation to call you for "a little chat".
As you know I now have no "route to market" other than here on AOS, but whilst not an "extreme objectivist" I am extremely principled so if you are going to ban me do so. I will then take my products to the magazines instead and get that website running that I've been meaning to do for ages.
nil illegitimi carborundum:ner:
No, I don't buy that every amp I have owned had a lower output on phono because it was badly designed. It doesn't cost ant more to give it more gain so they don't do it for a reason. Which I suspect is because they don't know if someone is going to use some crazy 5v output cart and won't be able to get the volume of zero.
Stand-alone ohono stages are a far more specialised arena bought by enthusiasts or at least the semi-serious only. Even then I bet a lot of commercial designs out put less than 2v, so will sound quieter than a CD player built to Red Book standard for the same position on the volume control. Providing it isn't by a huge amount it doesn't matter, as Jez says, you just turn it up a couple of notches.
I think there is a point after which it does matter, though.
Well, you should do that anyway, to maximise your potential returns!
You're in no danger of being banned, Jez (that would be ridiculous, unless you really do something silly), but at the same time, there is a standard of behaviour here i insist upon from members, and particularly a level of common courtesy shown to others, whether you think they're wrong or not, which at times you fall woefully short of - and that *has* to change.
There's a fine line between frank outspokenness and plain rudeness/lack of self-awareness, and I'm unconvinced you know where that line is. The bottom line, however, is you can't just say what the hell you like without consequences.
You're also completely off-beam about how you're reading what's happening here, so please give me call (I did send you a PM requesting such) and I'll try and clear up the confusion, and hopefully provide you with some tips as to how to make your time here less confrontational for everyone involved! :)
Marco.
No, I don't buy that every amp I have owned had a lower output on phono because it was badly designed. It doesn't cost ant more to give it more gain so they don't do it for a reason. Which I suspect is because they don't know if someone is going to use some crazy 5v output cart and won't be able to get the volume of zero.
Stand-alone ohono stages are a far more specialised arena bought by enthusiasts or at least the semi-serious only. Even then I bet a lot of commercial designs out put less than 2v, so will sound quieter than a CD player built to Red Book standard for the same position on the volume control. Providing it isn't by a huge amount it doesn't matter, as Jez says, you just turn it up a couple of notches.
I think there is a point after which it does matter, though.
If the gain structure isn't right mate, then it isn't right, no matter how you cut it. I repeat: it is NOT necessary for there to be a notable discrepancy between the playback levels of vinyl and CD, with any amplifier - and if you fix it, and achieve relative parity between both sources, it's very likely that you'll hear the subsequent sonic benefits when replaying vinyl!
That's certainly been my experience, and you *know* just how 'into' this stuff I am :)
Marco.
Difference in mine is a couple of notches There are about 5 between 2 and 3 in my amp
In trad terms all my listening is between 8 30 and 10 max
That's pretty normal, mate. It's probably about one notch in mine. However, when I had Naim gear, and used their 'plug in' MC phono cards (known as 'K boards'), there was a massive difference between playback levels with CD and vinyl, and vinyl used to sound pretty crap in comparison: rather flat and lifeless....
My normal listening levels with CD were at about 9 o'clock, on my NAC52 preamp (with the zero position at 6 o'clock), and with vinyl, to get the same sound levels, about 2 or 3 o'clock!! Consequently, with recordings that were recorded at a low level, the preamp was running out of steam, and into clipping, before I could achieve a satisfactory volume.
At the time it sucked all the joy out of vinyl replay for me, as I just hated the 'lacklustre' sound I was getting, compared with CD, so much so that I sold my then turntable (an LP12), and embraced digital!! :eek:
However, then I discovered the joys of SUTs and head amps, together with valve phono stages, and not long after that Techies - and the rest, as they say, is history!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 19:42
Internally to a phono stage the gain structure is very important and for good technical reasons of maximising dynamic range, which I mean here by its correct technical meaning of maximising the usable difference between the lowest level, it being limited by noise, and the highest level by clipping. The RIAA EQ is the biggy here.. as is the extreme low levels from MC in particular. Before the RIAA, ie raw of the record, the top end is boosted by 10X with reference to 1KHz and the bottom end cut by 10X. This means overload point is frequency dependent!
OK phone just went to say mate is outside to go to pub so will continue later...
paulf-2007
31-08-2016, 20:14
Good analogy, Paul, and in this instance, most apt! :)
I'd be tempted though to put the word 'necessarily' after 'doesn't'.... The message would be more complete that way.
Marco.indeed, I believe the first time I heard it necessarily was included. No gold star for me yet again.
carruthersesq
31-08-2016, 20:16
Well, just catching up on this thread and my it has got a little heated!!
Thanks for everyone's input it is most welcome. I plan to try Jez's head amps which is apparently being posted out to me tomorrow, so we'll see if that gives me any improvement in sound. But has Jez mentioned in a post a little earlier it may not be the cart for me and I may need to pass it on.
The joys of owning audio equipment.
OK phone just went to say mate is outside to go to pub so will continue later...
And tomorrow, before you 'continue' anything, you can find the time to phone me, as requested (or I will phone you), as this isn't working. Understand that on here you don't ever rudely dismiss someone's very carefully considered experience as "bollocks'. Technically incorrect, perhaps (if applicable), but never "bollocks".
When putting your point across, Jez, there is simply no need to use such rude and confrontational language, and I can assure you, it will no longer be allowed.
Please do not post any further here, or elsewhere on the forum, until we've chatted.
Marco.
That's pretty normal, mate. It's probably about one notch in mine. However, when I had Naim gear, and used their 'plug in' MC phono cards (known as 'K boards'), there was a massive difference between playback levels with CD and vinyl, and vinyl used to sound pretty crap in comparison: rather flat and lifeless....
My normal listening levels with CD were at about 9 o'clock, on my NAC52 preamp (with the zero position at 6 o'clock), and with vinyl, to get the same sound levels, about 2 or 3 o'clock!! Consequently, with recordings that were recorded at a low level, the preamp was running out of steam, and into clipping, before I could achieve a satisfactory volume.
At the time it sucked all the joy out of vinyl replay for me, as I just hated the 'lacklustre' sound I was getting, compared with CD, so much so that I sold my then turntable (an LP12), and embraced digital!! :eek:
However, then I discovered the joys of SUTs and head amps, together with valve phono stages, and not long after that Techies - and the rest, as they say, is history!
Marco.
Marco:
In looking at the specifications for the Naim boards for the 52 there appear to actually be 3 different moving coil boards, an S model, a K model and and E model.
http://www.music-line.biz/cms/fileadmin/pdf/man_naim_pres_obs_e.pdf
If you look at the sensitivity numbers, both the S & K models have approximate gain of 68 dB which would be appropriate for very low output MC's like the DL S1 or others with output voltages in the .15 mV to .2 mV range. If, however, you were running with an E board installed, the E board's approximate gain is only around 56 dB and that, combined with using any cartridge with an output voltage of less than about .35 mV (the lower the output voltage, the worse or more extreme the problem would be) would almost definitely result in the situation (and the poor sound quality) which you described. Around .25 mV or .3 mV output with only 56 dB of gain would (in most systems) result in you running very deep into the volume pot and still sounding pretty lifeless, anemic and bland.
It is, however, very likely that you could have achieved good sound quality with that gear (or at least much, much better!) if the cartridge and the phono board were appropriately matched. As output voltage drops (this is much less of an issue with higher output MM's as there is a much broader gain window at work there providing you don't get into an overload situation) it becomes more and more critical to have appropriate phono stage gain so you are not simply amplifying the problems being created by the mismatch, which is what happens. Which is why I find it odd that anyone, particularly someone who manufactures or mods phono stages for a living, would suggest that gain is not important and can simply be compensated for with linestage gain ahead of the phono stage. There would be no need for head amps or SUT's (which also require very careful matching to optimise the gain) if that was the case!!!
And that is not to say that a carefully matched phono system will still not require the volume pot to be advanced more, possibly significantly, than when listening to CD in the same system. Not necessarily a bad thing either as most volume pots are more linear and provide better sound quality in the latter half of their travel and, providing appropriate SPL's can be achieved with high fidelity and a lack of intrusive noise, there is really no risk to the amp or integrated amp.
But it's a question ultimately of matching the cartridge's output to the phono stage's (or phono stage plus head amp or SUT) gain (as well as loading the cartridge optimally) to ensure that you have correct signal to noise ratio and reproduction of the signal to start off with. Once Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall there is no putting him back together again further down the line.
For the OP: If the combined gain of your Primare MM stage combined with Jez's head amp provides you with around 67-70 dB of total phono gain and you can load the cartridge around 400-500 ohms (the DL S1 has a relatively high internal impedance of 40 ohms) I would think you would have a very different impression of the cartridge. Still may not be your cup of tea but at least you will be hearing much more of what it is capable of.
If, on the other hand, your MM stage has 40 dB of gain and the head amp offers up only 20-22 dB of additional gain, you are more or less going to be in the same boat. And, as I mentioned earlier, having too much gain is just a different kind of problem resulting in a different sub-standard sound quality.
montesquieu
31-08-2016, 21:41
Marco:
In looking at the specifications for the Naim boards for the 52 there appear to actually be 3 different moving coil boards, an S model, a K model and and E model.
http://www.music-line.biz/cms/fileadmin/pdf/man_naim_pres_obs_e.pdf
If you look at the sensitivity numbers, both the S & K models have approximate gain of 68 dB which would be appropriate for very low output MC's like the DL S1 or others with output voltages in the .15 mV to .2 mV range. If, however, you were running with an E board installed, the E board's approximate gain is only around 56 dB and that, combined with using any cartridge with an output voltage of less than about .35 mV (the lower the output voltage, the worse or more extreme the problem would be) would almost definitely result in the situation (and the poor sound quality) which you described. Around .25 mV or .3 mV output with only 56 dB of gain would (in most systems) result in you running very deep into the volume pot and still sounding pretty lifeless, anemic and bland.
It is, however, very likely that you could have achieved good sound quality with that gear (or at least much, much better!) if the cartridge and the phono board were appropriately matched. As output voltage drops (this is much less of an issue with higher output MM's as there is a much broader gain window at work there providing you don't get into an overload situation) it becomes more and more critical to have appropriate phono stage gain so you are not simply amplifying the problems being created by the mismatch, which is what happens. Which is why I find it odd that anyone, particularly someone who manufactures or mods phono stages for a living, would suggest that gain is not important and can simply be compensated for with linestage gain ahead of the phono stage. There would be no need for head amps or SUT's (which also require very careful matching to optimise the gain) if that was the case!!!
And that is not to say that a carefully matched phono system will still not require the volume pot to be advanced more, possibly significantly, than when listening to CD in the same system. Not necessarily a bad thing either as most volume pots are more linear and provide better sound quality in the latter half of their travel and, providing appropriate SPL's can be achieved with high fidelity and a lack of intrusive noise, there is really no risk to the amp or integrated amp.
But it's a question ultimately of matching the cartridge's output to the phono stage's (or phono stage plus head amp or SUT) gain (as well as loading the cartridge optimally) to ensure that you have correct signal to noise ratio and reproduction of the signal to start off with. Once Humpty Dumpty has fallen off the wall there is no putting him back together again further down the line.
For the OP: If the combined gain of your Primare MM stage combined with Jez's head amp provides you with around 67-70 dB of total phono gain and you can load the cartridge around 400-500 ohms (the DL S1 has a relatively high internal impedance of 40 ohms) I would think you would have a very different impression of the cartridge. Still may not be your cup of tea but at least you will be hearing much more of what it is capable of.
If, on the other hand, your MM stage has 40 dB of gain and the head amp offers up only 20-22 dB of additional gain, you are more or less going to be in the same boat. And, as I mentioned earlier, having too much gain is just a different kind of problem resulting in a different sub-standard sound quality.
Decent vinyl sound from Naim? :lol:
Decent vinyl sound from Naim? :lol:
The Naim sound has never really floated my boat either but the gear/situation did seem to be germane to the discussion. :)
is that a impossibility? Not had anything to do with them.
Can't argue with any of that, Blake. Indeed it is very good advice for anyone wishing to understand and appreciate a rudimentary but effective approach to high-quality vinyl replay, and I also think you're spot on with your advice for Steve.
As for the Naim boards I was using with my old NAC52 preamp (and NAC72 before that), they were definitely 'K' types, but seemed sonically incompatible with a Denon DL-103 cartridge I was using at the time.
After selling my Naim gear and buying a Croft Charisma-X preamp, with built-in valve MM phono stage (which I still use to this day, albeit heavily modified), and using the same cartridge with that, through a Lentek head amp, the difference in sound was almost beyond describable, both in terms of increased dynamic alacrity and 'heft' (together with the boost in gain provided by the Lentek), thus vastly reducing the discrepancy of playback levels between CD and vinyl, together with the amount of tonal colour/variation and finesse that combination imparted on the music (mostly due to the musicality of the valves), was simply breathtaking!
That was simply a different world, and a seminal moment in my education of how to hear vinyl records at their best! Since then, I've not moved from using valve MM phono stages and SUTs and/or head amps, in preference to standalone active MC devices, as to my ears, the latter always lack the 'magic' of the former, thus ultimately not sounding as musically satisfying.
Marco.
montesquieu
31-08-2016, 22:04
Can't argue with any of that, Blake. Indeed it is very good advice for anyone wishing to understand and appreciate a rudimentary but effective approach to high-quality vinyl replay, and I also think you're spot on with your advice for Steve.
As for the Naim boards I was using with my old NAC52 preamp (and NAC72 before that), they were definitely 'K' types, but seemed sonically incompatible with a Denon DL-103 cartridge I was using at the time.
After selling my Naim gear and buying a Croft Charisma-X preamp, with built-in valve MM phono stage (which I still use to this day, albeit heavily modified), and using the same cartridge with that, through a Lentek head amp, the difference in sound was almost beyond describable, both in terms of increased dynamic alacrity and 'heft' (together with the boost in gain provided by the Lentek), thus vastly reducing the discrepancy of playback levels between CD and vinyl, together with the amount of tonal colour/variation and finesse that combination imparted on the music (mostly due to the musicality of the valves), was simply breathtaking!
That was simply a different world, and a seminal moment in my education of how to hear vinyl records at their best! Since then, I've not moved from using valve MM phono stages and SUTs and/or head amps, in preference to standalone active MC devices, as to my ears, the latter always lack the 'magic' of the former, thus ultimately not sounding as musically satisfying.
Marco.
My seminal moment was being confronted by the fact that a Townshend Rock was blowing away the LP12 I had bought with my very first credit card after getting my first grown-up/graduate job, and owned for 20 years - how could that possibly happen to The Best Turntable in the World (TM)? Led me to some quite strange places for a while.
walpurgis
31-08-2016, 22:23
Not owned an LP12, but I have used them. But I recall something similar years ago. A friend had a Linn with an Ittok and Koetsu black and swore by it. I wasn't so sure myself. Anyway, his regular dealer (Cornflake Shop I believe) loaned him a Roksan Xerxes with a Zeta arm and his Koetsu was installed. Wow! It was a revelation compared to the LP12. The music came to life and it seemed layers of veiling had disappeared. I liked the combination a lot! Needless to say matey bought it and upgraded to a Koesu Red, which was definitely superior to the Black.
This lasted a year or two, until the lust for top rank CD got the better of him and a Mark Levinson transport and pre-amp/processor arrived along with a pair of ATC SCM 50A speakers. Cost him a pretty penny! :)
Not owned an LP12, but I have used them. But I recall something similar years ago. A friend had a Linn with an Ittok and Koetsu black and swore by it. I wasn't so sure myself. Anyway, his regular dealer (Cornflake Shop I believe) loaned him a Roksan Xerxes with a Zeta arm and his Koetsu was installed. Wow! It was a revelation compared to the LP12. The music came to life and it seemed layers of veiling had disappeared. I liked the combination a lot! Needless to say matey bought it and upgraded to a Koesu Red, which was definitely superior to the Black.
This lasted a year or two, until the lust for top rank CD got the better of him and a Mark Levinson transport and pre-amp/processor arrived along with a pair of ATC SCM 50A speakers. Cost him a pretty penny! :)
No dog in the fight as I've never owned a Linn or a Roksan but it's very possible that your friend was hearing the results of a much better tonearm/cartridge pairing more than the tables themselves. The Zeta, unlike the Ittok, is a higher mass arm that is in essence a much better match up with the Koetsus which like a heavier arm.
That's the problem with analog: lots of pieces of the puzzle which have to be put together-properly. It is not plug and play. Those top rank CD players are a lot easier!!!
I did use a Koetsu Black for a number of years and in the end was not very impressed with it, but my system may not have been up to it at the time. Have a friend that currently has the Rosewood and am not particularly impressed with that relative to other cartridges he owns in that price range and above until he modified it for mono use-then I really liked it! But it is not really a Koetsu anymore :)
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2016, 23:42
Decent vinyl sound from Naim? :lol:
+1
anthonyTD
01-09-2016, 07:45
And the reason I still use an original Cranfield Rock, after owning many other turntables,cant realy explain what it is about the way it portrays music, it just puts a smile on my face everytime I use it!:)
My seminal moment was being confronted by the fact that a Townshend Rock was blowing away the LP12 I had bought with my very first credit card after getting my first grown-up/graduate job, and owned for 20 years - how could that possibly happen to The Best Turntable in the World (TM)? Led me to some quite strange places for a while.
If you have to turn the amp up to compensate for low gain further in the chain back surely you are working the amp harder, possibly getting into clipping before the volume level is satisfactory? That isn't desirable.
Also high output carts like the Stantons I have sound very 'beefy' compared to my more refined MM carts with much lower output. I've always assumed the beefiness is due to the high output. I cant replicate that effect with my Nagaoka even with the levels turned right up.
Re amps that's just not the way it works - clipping is not a matter of the position of the volume control, but the level of signal passing through. For example using a vintage integrated where the sensitivity of the line level inputs might be designed for something like 150mV output from the connected device, and then plugging in a modern CD player with an output of 2000mV, in effect you might be driving the amplifier at it's full power even before you reach 12 on the volume dial, anything further than that just resulting in more and more clipping. Likewise, if you run a 0.5mV signal into an input that was designed for 3mV, you can't really drive the amp into clipping because the signal just isn't strong enough for that, what you will do though is amplify all the lowlevel noise, probably resulting in a much worse signal-to-noise ratio. Power is a matter of voltage * current, and how hard the amplifier has to work is a matter of that. So the amp might be working way harder with the volume dial at 10 o'clock with that very loud signal from a CD-player than it is with the volume maxed out with a very low signal coming in. Someone more technically inclined could probably explain it better and perhaps more accurately.
Re 'beefy' sounding cartridges with very high output, I suspect it would have more to do with the internal design of the cartridge than the strength of signal going to the phono stage. A very high output MM will typically have a lot of windings in the coils, resulting in a very high inductance, which in general tends to make the sound less transparent and more meaty in the bass, while lower inductance designs gain more transparency. I'm sure there's a technical reason for why that happens. High inductance in the cartridge also means more sensitivity for capacitance in the phonostage / cables, resulting in a lower high-cut frequency, and more pronounced resonance at said freq, which also affects the perceived sound a lot. Depending on the interaction between cartridge / cables / phonostage, a typical MM-setup usually has a pretty high peak in treble response somewhere between 10-20kHz and a very steep cliff after that, making it possible for mismatched setup to sound both overly hot and bright in the treble, while still loosing all the 'air' due to the very poor extension. Many if not most MM cartridges also have something of a 'dip' before that cut-off frequency, so many of them have a bit of smiley face/loudness button eq-curve, with somewhat recessed midrange, if not as pronounced as actually hitting that loudness button :)
Another aspect is the magnets used, very high output cartridges would likely also use larger / powerful mangnets - a larger magnet would obviously make the moving mass higher and this will affect how the cartridge behaves mechanically. Other than being less nimble in tracking, I'm not sure how it would affect perceived sound quality though... said high output designs also usually have very large/fat cantilevers, which is another thing adding to moving mass, but on the other hand also has the upside of the cantilever being very rigid which would be the upside. Where the optimal balance between rigidity / mass is, I suppose that's a matter of perception / opinion.
Anyway the point is I believe the above mentioned reasons are way more important for the perceived sound than the actual output level (though I suppose that might matter as well, but less) - then again I might be full of it. Btw. for most well designed phono stages, they can usually take signals in the hundreds of millivolts range before being overloaded, so very rarely too much output from a cartridge would be an issue.
Beobloke
01-09-2016, 11:56
If you have to turn the amp up to compensate for low gain further in the chain back surely you are working the amp harder, possibly getting into clipping before the volume level is satisfactory?.
Amplifiers don't work like that. The volume control is not a control right on the output to reduce the amplifier's level of 'amplification'. That 'amplification' level is fixed and the volume control is on the input to limit the amount of input signal going into the amplifier. Because of this, you'll drive an amplifier into clipping far more easily with a high input level than a low one.
So what is the reason for integrated amps having less gain on their phono stage than they do on the line level?
So what is the reason for integrated amps having less gain on their phono stage than they do on the line level?
Just to get the terms straight - they have a lot more gain on the phono stage, typically 30-40dB more than the line stage - but even then, especially using modern line level equipment, the outcoming signal to speakers might still be of lower level. So I take it you simply mean why line level sources sound louder given the same volume setting - if I recall correctly DIN specified line level voltage was 150mV, and 300mV is the current standard - but modern CD players typically output 1V or even 2V. The reason for that? Beats me, maybe they realized in A/B testing a louder component sounds more impressive by sheer volume alone :) The whole thing is also made more complicated by the fact that there's also another "line level" standard for pro use, which is 1.2V or so. Comparing a vintage cassette deck and a phono cartridge with a healthy 5mV output, there shouldn't be much of a difference in volume, it's just mostly the modern stuff that put out a lot more than the consumer standard 0.3V.
With a 3mV cartridge & a phonostage of 40dB gain, the incoming signal to the line stage would be 300mV, right on the mark to standard. Compared to a modern CD player it would still be a lot quieter. I think 40dB would be typical gain for modern stand alone phonostage, while many vintage integrateds had something more close to 35dB. Anyway in this case it would actually be the phono as a source that would give the full performance of the amplifier and a full use of the volume control, while with CD you'd be already maxxed out before the end of travel of the volume pot. That is given that the amp is built for 0.3V line level sources.
So the phono stage is correct, and if you were to hook up a CD player with a comparatively low output (Phillip's Red Book standard is 2V), you would not need to adjust volume at all to have the same level?
Makes sense. it also would mean that high output stand alone phono stages are therefore technically worse not better, since they might not allow full use of the volume pot on an active pre-amp.
Ali Tait
01-09-2016, 14:44
No doesn't matter, at least not if you have enough useable range on the vol pot to adjust volume accordingly. Doesn't matter if you only have to turn the knob half way to get full output - you're still getting full output.
Hi Kai,
With a 3mV cartridge & a phonostage of 40dB gain, the incoming signal to the line stage would be 300mV, right on the mark to standard. Compared to a modern CD player it would still be a lot quieter. I think 40dB would be typical gain for modern stand alone phonostage...
So how does it work then, in terms of the overall db gain, when you add a moving-coil head amplifier to the MM input of your average standalone phono stage? Do you add together the gain of the head amp itself and the inbuilt gain of the phono stage, in order to get the final db gain figure, or does one cancel out the other? Or what?
For reference, the gain of my Lentek head amp is 25db, but I don't know what the gain is of the internal valve MM stage in my Croft preamp, but let's presume that if it's, say, 40db, which you claim is about the average, then does that mean when I plug the Lentek in, the phono stage is getting a 25db boost? Or is that nonsense?
I'm genuinely interested to learn here, so this is one instance where Jez, or anyone else with the requisite technical knowledge, can come and 'tell me how it is'! ;)
One thing I do know, as I've said already, from years of experience using a myriad of vinyl-based systems, is that sub-optimal/inadequate gain in a phono stage results in a 'weedy', lacklustre sound from vinyl replay, compared with what is possible when everything is spot on - *that* I am definitely not imagining! :nono:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 17:14
Yep just add the gain in dB together. As they are in dB and logarithmic you are actually multiplying the gains if you were to translate back into amplification factor.
Oh and I completely disagree on your last paragraph.
Lol - well, that's fine. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, but that's what I've always heard :)
In terms of the first bit then, just to be absolutely clear, you're saying to add the two gain figures together, so 40db plus 25db, giving a total gain for the phono stage of 65db, which therefore is 25db above the supposed average?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 17:41
Lol - well, that's fine. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, but that's what I've always heard :)
In terms of the first bit then, just to be absolutely clear, you're saying to add the two gain figures together, so 40db plus 25db, giving a total gain for the phono stage of 65db, which therefore is 25db above the supposed average?
Marco.
40dB = x 100
25dB = x 17.78
17.78 x 100 = 1778
1778 = 65dB
So with 65dB gain you are multiplying the output of the cartridge by X 1778
Lol - now you're confusing me (easily done with these matters)...
Can you just give me a 'yes' or 'no' to my previous post (the bit you've highlighted), basically confirming that, with the Lentek in the equation, I've got 65db of gain? :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 17:51
Lol - now you're confusing me (easily done with these matters)...
Can you just give me a 'yes' or 'no' to my previous post (the bit you've highlighted), basically confirming that, with the Lentek in the equation, I've got 65db of gain? :)
Marco.
I would have thought that was obvious... but yes you have 65dB gain which is the same as saying the cartridge is being amplified 1778 times. About right for an MC.
Ok, cool. However, we're of course presuming that the phono stage in the Croft measures 40db.... It could more (or less) than that figure.
Anyway, you say that's about right for an MC, but if the typical gain for a phono stage is 40db, as was suggested earlier by Kai, then I presume that would not be "about right", as it's 25db less?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 18:14
Ok, cool. However, we're of course presuming that the phono stage in the Croft measures 40db.... It could more (or less) than that figure.
Anyway, you say that's about right for an MC, but if the typical gain for a phono stage is 40db, as was suggested earlier by Kai, then I presume that would not be "about right", as it's 25db less?
Marco.
Saints preserve us.... ones an MM stage but the combination is an MC stage!! 40dB ish is about normal-ish for an MM stage. All kinda saying something about the "you need at least xDb gain to get a good sound" theory!!:D
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 18:22
Gain is a very high 69.5 dB with my hybrid MC stage as it is zero feedback and so the amount of gain is pretty much set in stone by which valves are used;) And no you can't "tube roll" (I hate that phrase!) at all.
Not rising to it! :ner:
So... 65db gain is about right for an MC stage? Cool. Now I just need to ask Glenn Croft what the gain is on his MM stages, to confirm (or not) the 40db figure :)
The thing that I've observed is that almost every time I've compared a standalone MC stage with an MM stage, plus a head amp, the latter combo has always sound louder/had more 'balls'. That's the best way I can describe it.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 18:34
Not rising to it! :ner:
So... 65db gain is about right for an MC stage? Cool. Now I just need to ask Glenn Croft what the gain is on his MM stages, to confirm (or not) the 40db figure :)
The thing that I've observed is that almost every time I've compared a standalone MC stage with an MM stage, plus a head amp, the latter combo has always sound louder/had more 'balls'. That's the best way I can describe it.
Marco.
48dB if it's the same as the croft phono stage. 40 is a bit on the low side actually... If so that gives you a whopping 73dB gain. You should find it similar level to CD.
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 18:35
Not rising to it! :ner:
So... 65db gain is about right for an MC stage? Cool. Now I just need to ask Glenn Croft what the gain is on his MM stages, to confirm (or not) the 40db figure :)
The thing that I've observed is that almost every time I've compared a standalone MC stage with an MM stage, plus a head amp, the latter combo has always sound louder/had more 'balls'. That's the best way I can describe it.
Marco.
Depends Marco.
Assume 40-43 db for a typical MM phono stage.
It then depends what you need in the head amp stage, but generally at least another 20db. What's particularly complicated though is how all this maps to things like cartridge impedance and SUT ratios.
Intuitively it's easy to grasp that even among LOMCs, a 0.6mV Koetsu needs a very different amount of gain to a 0.15mV Ortofon (though potential difference in impedance between the two can have an impact). I had a 1:6 Partidge SUT which was perfect for the Koetsu Red Signatre that I had, but some of my current stuff needs 1:30 or 1:40 (or indeed even more in the case of the AN Io).
I never got my head around the maths of all this - far too complicated for a non-engineer. However I have adopted a bunch of rules of thumb gained from experience of many cartridges and many SUTs which have proved in recent years to be pretty much foolproof (just as well you might add).
Ali Tait
01-09-2016, 18:37
Yes agreed, when I've compared head amps to SUTs, there always seems to be a more up front sound to the head amp, like sitting several rows closer to the stage.
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 18:39
48dB if it's the same as the croft phono stage. 40 is a bit on the low side actually... If so that gives you a whopping 73dB gain. You should find it similar level to CD.
48db in a mm stage is huge. I had C-J phono stage once that was 50db, in terms of gain it was neither flesh nor fowl. All sorts of bother getting sensible volumes out of it using LOMCs, tiny gain SUTs required to get it right, but not enough to work on its own (although without SUT, the impedance coupld be matched by dip switches and the volume turned up, it soudned ... er .. weedy and flat.)
Yup, it certainly seems like that's what is happening, so I suspect, as you say, that the gain of the Croft is higher than 40db. In my system, the level is definitely similar to CD, which is why there is little difference in the respective playback levels of my vinyl and digital sources (even with the DL-S1) :)
And for me, that's exactly how it should be when things are right - there should be no significant discrepancies.
Marco.
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 18:41
Not rising to it! :ner:
So... 65db gain is about right for an MC stage? Cool. Now I just need to ask Glenn Croft what the gain is on his MM stages, to confirm (or not) the 40db figure :)
The thing that I've observed is that almost every time I've compared a standalone MC stage with an MM stage, plus a head amp, the latter combo has always sound louder/had more 'balls'. That's the best way I can describe it.
Marco.
Depends Marco.
Assume 40-43 db for a typical MM phono stage.
It then depends what you need in the head amp stage, but generally at least another 20db. What's particularly complicated though is how all this maps to things like cartridge impedance and SUT ratios.
Intuitively it's easy to grasp that even among LOMCs, a 0.6mV Koetsu needs a very different amount of gain to a 0.15mV Ortofon (though potential difference in impedance between the two can have an impact). I had a 1:6 Partidge SUT which was perfect for the Koetsu Red Signatre that I had, but some of my current stuff needs 1:30 or 1:40 (or indeed even more in the case of the AN Io).
I never got my head around the maths of all this - far too complicated for a non-engineer. However I have adopted a bunch of rules of thumb gained from experience of many cartridges and many SUTs which have proved in recent years to be pretty much foolproof (just as well you might add).
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 19:04
48db in a mm stage is huge. I had C-J phono stage once that was 50db, in terms of gain it was neither flesh nor fowl. All sorts of bother getting sensible volumes out of it using LOMCs, tiny gain SUTs required to get it right, but not enough to work on its own (although without SUT, the impedance coupld be matched by dip switches and the volume turned up, it soudned ... er .. weedy and flat.)
Crofts web site says "2 mV for 0.5 V rms o/p " for the Croft RIAA which works out as 48dB. it's 43.3dB for the Arkless 640P which everyone says has a healthy output so that is rather on the high side on the Croft. With something like a Koetsu it's going to be OTT with the headamp in place!
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 19:08
Crofts web site says "2 mV for 0.5 V rms o/p " for the Croft RIAA which works out as 48dB. it's 43.3dB for the Arkless 640P which everyone says has a healthy output so that is rather on the high side on the Croft. With something like a Koetsu it's going to be OTT with the headamp in place!
Indeed, that 50db was a bit silly, just not quite enough for LOMC on its own, too much for MM (try puting a 7mV Shure M44 on the end of 50db). 48dB on the Croft phono section would seem to me to equally impractical unless there's no all gain at all in the preamp it's fitted to. Which I guess might well be fine into some power amps.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 19:37
Indeed, that 50db was a bit silly, just not quite enough for LOMC on its own, too much for MM (try puting a 7mV Shure M44 on the end of 50db). 48dB on the Croft phono section would seem to me to equally impractical unless there's no all gain at all in the preamp it's fitted to. Which I guess might well be fine into some power amps.
Hmmm 2.2V out. Lively! 1.75V with Croft... It's possible of course that the "Croft RIAA" has different circuitry to the pre amps but I would guess it will be same as the phono section of the pre....
Crofts web site says "2 mV for 0.5 V rms o/p " for the Croft RIAA which works out as 48dB. it's 43.3dB for the Arkless 640P which everyone says has a healthy output so that is rather on the high side on the Croft. With something like a Koetsu it's going to be OTT with the headamp in place!
Yup, all of that pretty much confirms my experience of using the Croft with various cartridges and SUTs/head amps, and also why there is little discrepancy between playback levels of my vinyl and digital sources. Most MC cartridges I've used have been in the range of 0.3mV or lower.
The only overload problem I've ever experienced was with a stupidly high-gain Jorgen Scheu vintage SUT, which I used with an SPU, but other than that the gain structure with every other combo I've used with it for 8 years has been spot on :)
Just a thought on the high gain of the Croft's MM phono stage, could it be to facilitate/optimise the use of Decca cartridges, as that's all Glenn uses?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 19:57
Yup, all of that pretty much confirms my experience of using the Croft with various cartridges and SUTs/head amps, and also why there is little discrepancy between playback levels of my vinyl and digital sources. Most MC cartridges I've used have been in the range of 0.3mV or lower.
The only overload problem I've ever experienced was with a stupidly high-gain Jorgen Scheu vintage SUT, which I used with an SPU, but other than that the gain structure with every other combo I've used with it for 8 years has been spot on :)
Just a thought on the high gain of the Croft's MM phono stage, could it be to facilitate/optimise the use of Decca cartridges, as that's all Glenn uses?
Marco.
Decca's are normal output level (quick reccy at Maroon says 5mV) so that is pretty much ruled out...
Depends Marco.
Assume 40-43 db for a typical MM phono stage.
It then depends what you need in the head amp stage, but generally at least another 20db. What's particularly complicated though is how all this maps to things like cartridge impedance and SUT ratios.
Intuitively it's easy to grasp that even among LOMCs, a 0.6mV Koetsu needs a very different amount of gain to a 0.15mV Ortofon (though potential difference in impedance between the two can have an impact). I had a 1:6 Partidge SUT which was perfect for the Koetsu Red Signatre that I had, but some of my current stuff needs 1:30 or 1:40 (or indeed even more in the case of the AN Io).
I never got my head around the maths of all this - far too complicated for a non-engineer. However I have adopted a bunch of rules of thumb gained from experience of many cartridges and many SUTs which have proved in recent years to be pretty much foolproof (just as well you might add).
Completely agree, Tom - it all gets very complicated! However, what I'm relating is simply the results of my experience to date. When head amps or SUTs are introduced into the equation, it invariably results in most phono stages I've used having a healthier output, and subsequently superior sound quality.
However, I'm not saying that's the way it always will be, as of course much depends on the respective designs of the phono stages and SUTs/head amps in question, but it's what I've generally experienced, hence why I don't use a standalone MC stage - and haven't done for many years :)
Marco.
Decca's are normal output level (quick reccy at Maroon says 5mV) so that is pretty much ruled out...
Ok, I guess it's back to the drawing board then! I should have a conversation with Glenn about this, as it intrigues me, and it's been a while since we had a little chat :)
Marco.
Link below is to the KAB Phono Preamp Paramater Calculator:
http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/
FWIW, over the years with a number of cartridges and traditional fixed gain phono stages (some of which I've had modified to increase or reduce gain), I've found the KAB calculator to be just about dead on. Systems are all different however, and there may be examples in which the KAB calculator will not provide a dead on result: two that come to mind would be systems with passive preamps (no linestage gain so more gain may be needed at the phono preamp) or systems with very high efficiency speakers, in which case it might be possible to get away with less phono gain. But for most "normal" systems the KAB calculator should be very good if not right on.
The chart of typical gain values at the bottom of the calculator I find to be less helpful. As you can see, it lists the gain range for a .3 mV cartridge as between 53 dB and 60 dB. Punch .3 mV into the calculator and it gives you an optimal gain of 61 dB which I would say based on my experience is pretty much dead on. I know that if I tried to run a .3 mV cartridge in my system with 53 dB of gain (I've done a pretty close approximation of that and ended up having the phono stage modified to provide the higher, correct gain as per the KAB calculator) I would be very unhappy.
If you have ever modified a phono stage with respect to gain for a specific cartridge or, better yet, have a stage with infinitely variable gain (as I do), you will find that, particularly with low output moving coil cartridges, relatively small changes in gain (say less than 3 dB) can have significant effects on performance. Unless one has some kind of unusual system as mentioned above, I strongly recommend the use of the KAB calculator and trying to get as close to the gain it recommends based on output voltage. In fact, outside of 3 dB one way or another, my opinion is that you will not be hearing what your cartridge is really capable of and are wasting your time trying to.
Too little gain will result in a kind of dead, anemic sound with the highs rolled off; kind of like listening through a wet blanket, even if your volume control is almost maxed out and you're achieving decent SPL's. Too much gain and the sound will kind of harden up (like bad CD), particularly in the mids and high frequencies, with the soundstage collapsing and flattening out. Dynamics are wiped out with either too little or too much gain.
Nail the gain with a good low output MC and it is a special thing. Dynamics, spatial information, everything as it should be. But the window is narrow: within 2 dB in my opinion and not easy to figure out without variable gain. Without variable gain the KAB calculator is a very good place to start.
All of this assumes the cartridge is also properly loaded.
48dB on the Croft phono section would seem to me to equally impractical unless there's no all gain at all in the preamp it's fitted to. Which I guess might well be fine into some power amps.
Yup I get that, but in reality there is no impracticality. The results with using all manner of cartridges and SUTs/head amps are very well-judged.
What I would say, however, is that I don't think that the preamp itself is exceptionally high gain, having compared it with many other active preamps, over the years, using line-level inputs on CD playback, so perhaps Glenn's idea (I've no idea why) is to combine a high-gain phono stage with a low to medium-gain preamp? :hmm:
Also, my Copper amp is extremely sensitive, so don't need much 'driving'...
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
01-09-2016, 20:17
Completely agree, Tom - it all gets very complicated! However, what I'm relating is simply the results of my experience to date. When head amps or SUTs are introduced into the equation, it invariably results in most phono stages I've used having a healthier output, and subsequently superior sound quality.
However, I'm not saying that's the way it always will be, as of course much depends on the respective designs of the phono stages and SUTs/head amps in question, but it's what I've generally experienced, hence why I don't use a standalone MC stage - and haven't done for many years :)
Marco.
You are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 here.... Without a SUT or headamp you cannot use a MC cart with a MM stage as there is insufficient gain... obviously there will be a healthier output when a SUT or headamp is used. There would be bugger all output from a MM stage used with an MC cart if there were no step up device!
I also believe the "better sound from MM stage with step up than from standalone MC" to be a red herring.... Many MM/MC switchable stages merely switch in an SUT or headamp ahead of the basic MM stage.... EXACTLY the same thing but all in one box!! It may be that you have had some "lucky" partnerings of MM stages with separate step ups but I'm confident that it is a red herring and if you kept trying loads and loads to get an aggregate feeling for what is going on I think you would find no overall difference to all in one stages.... In fact all in ones can have theoretical advantages....
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 20:19
Link below is to the KAB Phono Preamp Paramater Calculator:
http://kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/
FWIW, over the years with a number of cartridges and traditional fixed gain phono stages (some of which I've had modified to increase or reduce gain), I've found the KAB calculator to be just about dead on. Systems are all different however, and there may be examples in which the KAB calculator will not provide a dead on result: two that come to mind would be systems with passive preamps (no linestage gain so more gain may be needed at the phono preamp) or systems with very high efficiency speakers, in which case it might be possible to get away with less phono gain. But for most "normal" systems the KAB calculator should be very good if not right on.
The chart of typical gain values at the bottom of the calculator I find to be less helpful. As you can see, it lists the gain range for a .3 mV cartridge as between 53 dB and 60 dB. Punch .3 mV into the calculator and it gives you an optimal gain of 61 dB which I would say based on my experience is pretty much dead on. I know that if I tried to run a .3 mV cartridge in my system with 53 dB of gain (I've done a pretty close approximation of that and ended up having the phono stage modified to provide the higher, correct gain as per the KAB calculator) I would be very unhappy.
If you have ever modified a phono stage with respect to gain for a specific cartridge or, better yet, have a stage with infinitely variable gain (as I do), you will find that, particularly with low output moving coil cartridges, relatively small changes in gain (say less than 3 dB) can have significant effects on performance. Unless one has some kind of unusual system as mentioned above, I strongly recommend the use of the KAB calculator and trying to get as close to the gain it recommends based on output voltage. In fact, outside of 3 dB one way or another, my opinion is that you will not be hearing what your cartridge is really capable of and are wasting your time trying to.
Too little gain will result in a kind of dead, anemic sound with the highs rolled off; kind of like listening through a wet blanket, even if your volume control is almost maxed out and you're achieving decent SPL's. Too much gain and the sound will kind of harden up (like bad CD), particularly in the mids and high frequencies, with the soundstage collapsing and flattening out. Dynamics are wiped out with either too little or too much gain.
Nail the gain with a good low output MC and it is a special thing. Dynamics, spatial information, everything as it should be. But the window is narrow: within 2 dB in my opinion and not easy to figure out without variable gain. Without variable gain the KAB calculator is a very good place to start.
All of this assumes the cartridge is also properly loaded.
+1 totally concur with all of this in my experience. The optimum conditions do not arise magically at the preamp's volume control.
If you have ever modified a phono stage with respect to gain for a specific cartridge or, better yet, have a stage with infinitely variable gain (as I do), you will find that, particularly with low output moving coil cartridges, relatively small changes in gain (say less than 3 dB) can have significant effects on performance. Unless one has some kind of unusual system as mentioned above, I strongly recommend the use of the KAB calculator and trying to get as close to the gain it recommends based on output voltage. In fact, outside of 3 dB one way or another, my opinion is that you will not be hearing what your cartridge is really capable of and are wasting your time trying to.
Too little gain will result in a kind of dead, anemic sound with the highs rolled off; kind of like listening through a wet blanket, even if your volume control is almost maxed out and you're achieving decent SPL's. Too much gain and the sound will kind of harden up (like bad CD), particularly in the mids and high frequencies, with the soundstage collapsing and flattening out. Dynamics are wiped out with either too little or too much gain.
Nail the gain with a good low output MC and it is a special thing. Dynamics, spatial information, everything as it should be. But the window is narrow: within 2 dB in my opinion and not easy to figure out without variable gain.
Again, all of that pretty much mirrors my own experience. Like you say, maxing things out, to nail the gain within 2db (or so) is where the magic happens, and you move from having a good sound, to something really rather special! :)
It's a bit like finding the 'sweet spot' with VTF and/or VTA, with a cartridge, and listening to music reproduced that way, versus how it sounds when either of those parameters are just a fraction off. When you nail that sweet spot, everything just sounds 'effortless' - and so it is with getting the gain structure right, for top-notch vinyl replay.
Marco.
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 20:29
You are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 here.... Without a SUT or headamp you cannot use a MC cart with a MM stage as there is insufficient gain... obviously there will be a healthier output when a SUT or headamp is used. There would be bugger all output from a MM stage used with an MC cart if there were no step up device!
I also believe the "better sound from MM stage with step up than from standalone MC" to be a red herring.... Many MM/MC switchable stages merely switch in an SUT or headamp ahead of the basic MM stage.... EXACTLY the same thing but all in one box!! It may be that you have had some "lucky" partnerings of MM stages with separate step ups but I'm confident that it is a red herring and if you kept trying loads and loads to get an aggregate feeling for what is going on I think you would find no overall difference to all in one stages.... In fact all in ones can have theoretical advantages....
Well .. subjective again ... totally see where you are coming from here. But it's not all of it.
My Aurorasound Vida is a cracking phono stage and has two inputs, MM and MC. I run two arms (at the moment anyway ...) but only MC cartridges in the main system. The MC stage is moderately configurable. The sensible thing would be surely to run one arm into each with an SUT into the MM stage. Logical, yes.
The reality is that, for all that this is a top notch (£3k retail fwiw) LCR phono stage, and the MC section is very good, I've found regardless of cartridge that a good SUT into MM beats it for atmosphere, detail, timbre, bouncyness ... you name it. So I prefer to live with the modest compromises of switching on my SUT, to take two arms. (Which works wonderfully).
I'd actually like to give your head amp a go sometime, I had great results years ago (in a configuration where SUTs gave me hum issues I couldn't resolve, I think due to TT earthing at the time) with a Slee Elevator head amp, which was lovely and configurable. But going back to a good SUT was a step up again.
MartinT got rid of his Hashimotos into his Vida, on grounds of belief system (getting rid of valves, going SS, reducing box count). But he was wrong, I heard his Vida and his Hashimotos in my system, and it was better with the SUTs in place.
Indeed it was that experience, with a Miyajima Waza, which persuaded me to flog off the Kondo S6c SUT and An Io2 I had at the time and go Miyajima/Hashimoto/Vida). But that's another story - one that proves belief systems can drive hearing more strongly than sound waves at times!
You are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 here.... Without a SUT or headamp you cannot use a MC cart with a MM stage as there is insufficient gain... obviously there will be a healthier output when a SUT or headamp is used. There would be bugger all output from a MM stage used with an MC cart if there were no step up device!
Lol... Do you think I don't know that! :doh:
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that in my experience so far, in over 25 years of using all manner of different phono stages, head amps and SUTs, so it's NOT A FACT, simply what I've discovered, a well-designed valve MM phono stage, used in conjunction with a well-designed, high quality SUT and/or head amp, beats the standalone MC stages I've compared them with, in conjunction with the cartridges I've used, in terms of having a 'ballsier' sound, healthier output, and superior overall sound quality.
YMMV.
I also believe the "better sound from MM stage with step up than from standalone MC" to be a red herring....
Nope, it's simply what I honestly and genuinely have heard.
Many MM/MC switchable stages merely switch in an SUT or headamp ahead of the basic MM stage.... EXACTLY the same thing but all in one box!! It may be that you have had some "lucky" partnerings of MM stages with separate step ups but I'm confident that it is a red herring and if you kept trying loads and loads to get an aggregate feeling for what is going on I think you would find no overall difference to all in one stages....
Well, I wouldn't argue with that, but the fact is, we're just surmising. All I can do is comment on what I've heard so far, not on what I might hear in future!
If you want to design me a standalone MC stage, which you think will deliver what you're saying, I'll compare it with the Croft and one of my head amps, and review it for the forum - and if the results are as you predict, that's precisely what I'll report :)
Marco.
My Aurorasound Vida is a cracking phono stage and has two inputs, MM and MC. I run two arms (at the moment anyway ...) but only MC cartridges in the main system. The MC stage is moderately configurable. The sensible thing would be surely to run one arm into each with an SUT into the MM stage. Logical, yes.
The reality is that, for all that this is a top notch (£3k retail fwiw) LCR phono stage, and the MC section is very good, I've found regardless of cartridge that a good SUT into MM beats it for atmosphere, detail, timbre, bouncyness ... you name it.
Yup, same goes for me, and I've also used the Vida in my own system for a week, as Guy loaned me one. I was suitably enough impressed with it to highly recommend it to Martin T, who wouldn't have had it on his radar otherwise, and he subsequently asked Guy to send the same unit to him for auditioning, when after hearing it he was totally blown away, and so bought one himself.
However, you'll note that I didn't end up buying a Vida and kept my (heavily-modified Croft)... ;)
MartinT got rid of his Hashimotos into his Vida, on grounds of belief system (getting rid of valves, going SS, reducing box count). But he was wrong, I heard his Vida and his Hashimotos in my system, and it was better with the SUTs in place.
Yup, that's also what I heard. He should've kept those Hashimotos! Also, when I had the Vida, I compared its MC section to its MM section, used through my Paul Hynes head amp, and guess which was better? You guessed it... The latter!
Indeed it was that experience, with a Miyajima Waza, which persuaded me to flog off the Kondo S6c SUT and An Io2 I had at the time and go Miyajima/Hashimoto/Vida). But that's another story - one that proves belief systems can drive hearing more strongly than sound waves at times!
Ha - yes, and scientific ones too, not just those of the subjectivist variety!
In all seriousness though, there is definitely something going on with what we're hearing with MM stages and SUTs/head amps, other than our imagination, as we're far from alone in our views, plus what we're hearing, with the comparisons we're making, is usually easily demonstrated :)
Marco.
Yes agreed, when I've compared head amps to SUTs, there always seems to be a more up front sound to the head amp, like sitting several rows closer to the stage.
It's a difficult one, Ali. Essentially, I'd agree, which is why I currently have two head amps and no SUT. Active and passive devices, in my experience, have intrinsically different sounds, and I think that partly the benefit you've described with head amps, comes from that area of their respective designs.
Having compared both approaches/devices at length now over a number of years, I'd say that, in general, head amps are more my thing. Perhaps that's because I use a valve phono stage (and power amp), and so don't need the added 'airy spaciousness' or 'sweet tone,' generally imparted by good SUTs, and when using one of the latter in my set-up, it simply 'over-eggs the pudding', if you see what I mean?
At the end of the day it's all about getting the balance right in your own system. Things might be different for me, in that respect, if I had a solid-state MM phono stage, and so wanted to inject some 'valvey' traits into the equation, which in my experience good SUTs can provide. There's no doubt though, that if you luck upon a 'magic combo' of LOMC/SUT, the results can be utterly sublime - and in a way that no head amp I've heard can match.
However, discovering said 'magic combo' is often rather akin to finding a needle in a haystack!
Marco.
Ali Tait
01-09-2016, 21:47
Yep can agree with that, this vinyl game is a minefield!
montesquieu
01-09-2016, 21:58
Yup, same goes for me, and I've also used the Vida in my own system for a week, as Guy loaned me one. I was suitably enough impressed with it to highly recommend it to Martin T, who wouldn't have had it on his radar otherwise, and he subsequently asked Guy to send the same unit to him for auditioning, when after hearing it he was totally blown away, and so bought one himself.
However, you'll note that I didn't end up buying a Vida and kept my (heavily-modified Croft)... ;)
Yup, that's also what I heard. He should've kept those Hashimotos! Also, when I had the Vida, I compared its MC section to its MM section, used through my Paul Hynes head amp, and guess which was better? You guessed it... The latter!
It doesn't surprise me that the Vida didn't make the cut in your system, Marco.
The Vida is really quite fussy about what preamps it likes and doesn't like ... it doesn't like a low value pot for starters, needs to be above 50k, 100k probably even better (which makes me think it has a highish output impedance though I've never had it measured). It's also not a gain monster (specs show the gain on MM is 39db). It doesn't get along with preamps with low gain, and expecially doesn't like passives of any description.
I suspect your Croft - likely made to have low or no gain because of the high sensitivity of the Copper amp - probably has one or more of the things that the Vida doesn't like. (I did talk to Glen at one point about doing me a pre, but got one from Will instead - and it seems he commonly does low or no-gain setups, mainly because as you point out, most people have more than enough coming out of their CDP to not need any gain. So makes sense in this scenario to put a lot of gain in the phono section to balance this).
Give it the right conditions - high gain pre in turn matched to the power amp, well-matched SUT - and the right cartridges of course - it really shines.
It doesn't surprise me that the Vida didn't make the cut in your system, Marco.
The Vida is really quite fussy about what preamps it likes and doesn't like ... it doesn't like a low value pot for starters, needs to be above 50k, 100k probably even better (which makes me think it has a highish output impedance though I've never had it measured). It's also not a gain monster (specs show the gain on MM is 39db). It doesn't get along with preamps with low gain, and expecially doesn't like passives of any description.
I suspect your Croft - likely made to have low or no gain because of the high sensitivity of the Copper amp - probably has one or more of the things that the Vida doesn't like. (I did talk to Glen at one point about doing me a pre, but got one from Will instead - and it seems he commonly does low or no-gain setups, mainly because as you point out, most people have more than enough coming out of their CDP to not need any gain. So makes sense in this scenario to put a lot of gain in the phono section to balance this).
Give it the right conditions - high gain pre in turn matched to the power amp, well-matched SUT - and the right cartridges of course - it really shines.
Some good insight there, Tom, particularly on how you reckon the Croft 'behaves', in terms of its phono stage and line-level inputs, in reference to gain. I kind of get now why Glenn's done it that way, which is quite clever, and it would certainly explain why there is near-parity achieved between the playback levels of my vinyl and digital sources! :)
I've also modified the Croft in such as a way as to give it the maximum amount of 'life' and dynamics (on phono and line-level), in terms of painstakingly optimising the value of the DACT stepped attenuator fitted, and discarding the shunted Alps Black pot that came as standard. I can tell you that removing that huge bottleneck alone was a revelation! :eek:
Also doing things such as choosing valves with the highest measured output, but which have 'balanced halves', so that both left and right channels are closely matched, and selecting valves which to my ears sound the most neutral (I hate using valves as tone controls), fitting Obbligato Teflon Tinfoil coupling caps, which opened up the sound massively compared to how the amp sounded in stock form, and numerous other things, all of which have advanced the amp well beyond anything stock that Glenn produces.
You really must hear it sometime in your own system, during our proposed forthcoming bake-off, as I think you'd be shocked at how good it is. I've compared £15k active preamps against it, and not preferred them - and indeed neither have some of the owners of said preamps!
However... It wasn't the case that the Vida didn't shine in my system, otherwise why would I have recommended it to Martin T? And trust me, I waxed lyrical about it and essentially told him that he MUST hear one, as I was certain he'd love it. The truth is, I was very impressed by the Vida and considered it as one of the best SS phono stages I'd ever heard, and did myself consider buying one.
The problem was that, as good as it was, it lacked (as to my ears all SS phono stages do), that certain 'addictive musicality' valves, when done well, impart on the sound. Now, being an established valve user yourself, you'll know exactly what I mean by that! And it's what the Croft had in spades over the Vida.... So, that was the reason why I didn't go for the Vida in the end, even though it was neutral to a fault, very even-handed, detailed but not overly analytical, and overall an extremely nice listen.
Therefore, although I don't doubt for a second that the Croft wasn't an ideal partner for the Vida, for all the reasons you mention, it was still plenty good enough for me to 'get' what it was about and clearly identify its strengths.
However, in the end none of that could make up for that 'magic valve factor'. However, I would say that the Vida is one of the least 'solid-state sounding' SS phono stages I've heard, and indeed exhibits some of the best traits of valves, with no hint whatsoever of that grainy, anodyne, 'transistory' sound one often hears with SS phono stages - even expensive ones.
So here's a thought.... Perhaps the reason you (currently) prefer SUTs to head amps is due to what I mentioned before: with you using an SS phono stage, you're seeking to add some 'valvey' traits into your vinyl replay, which good SUTs can provide? It's the opposite of my situation, and why I do what I do.
Like you say though, it's all about creating the right sonic (and electrical) conditions, in order to allow the equipment you've chosen to shine - and no textbook in the world can teach you that skill. Achieving that state of audio nirvana is down to good ears, judgement and experience, and those who get it right are the ones who end up owning truly superb sounding systems! :cool:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
02-09-2016, 00:54
Marco, as you and I have discussed you trying my hybrid MC stage in the past on the phone, and Tom has expressed interest in trying my budget head amp (yeah thats not a full phono stage...), I'm going to suggest that as you apparently have a bake off planned why don't you both try the hybrid phono stage individually, and then against each others kit at your bake off? I am confident that you will both find it a worthy adversary to the phono stages you are currently using;)
Sure, I'm well up for that :)
Marco.
montesquieu
02-09-2016, 08:56
Sure, I'm well up for that :)
Marco.
Yes me too.
Arkless Electronics
02-09-2016, 13:28
Ok well there is actually a potential improvement to the design that I have been "getting round to" trying for a while so I try that out and then should be in a position to send it out in a week or so. You'll have to decide between you which of you gets to try it first:)
Lol - that sounds very exciting, daddee! :D
I'll let Tom decide if he wants to go first or second, being as I'm a polite bastard.
Marco.
CornishPasty
05-09-2016, 02:22
Carruthersesq, have you received the Arkless headamp yet and if so have you had a chance to hear the DS-L1 through it?
carruthersesq
05-09-2016, 08:40
Carruthersesq, have you received the Arkless headamp yet and if so have you had a chance to hear the DS-L1 through it?
No, not arrived as yet, hoping it will be here some time today, Gary posted it on Thursday.
I will update the thread with my finding later in the week.
carruthersesq
05-09-2016, 11:26
Head Amp arrived this morning so hopefully will be able to have a play around over the next couple of evenings and post my thoughts.
CornishPasty
05-09-2016, 11:34
Good enough.
How much gain does the head amp provide? Is the loading fixed or are there options?
Arkless Electronics
05-09-2016, 14:16
How much gain does the head amp provide? Is the loading fixed or are there options?
Gains about 25dB and there is no adjustable loading on the demo version which is set to 270R. There is on versions supplied to customers though. This is my budget starter model headamp...
As it seems the OP's phono stage has a perfectly good MC stage built in I'm rather lost as to what the point of this is but hey ho....
Note that as a designer of both head amps and phono stages I completely disagree with Marco's opinion that a separate headamp or SUT into a MM stage is better than a standalone MC phono stage! It may be in some circumstances, such as if the built in MC stage is poor compared to the built in MM stage and has been a bit of an afterthought, but as a generality, definitely not!
In fact, done properly and without compromise I would expect a stand alone MC stage to beat any other option for a number of technical reasons which I won't bore folks with :)
Gains about 25dB and there is no adjustable loading on the demo version which is set to 270R. There is on versions supplied to customers though. This is my budget starter model headamp...
As it seems the OP's phono stage has a perfectly good MC stage built in I'm rather lost as to what the point of this is but hey ho....
Note that as a designer of both head amps and phono stages I completely disagree with Marco's opinion that a separate headamp or SUT into a MM stage is better than a standalone MC phono stage! It may be in some circumstances, such as if the built in MC stage is poor compared to the built in MM stage and has been a bit of an afterthought, but as a generality, definitely not!
In fact, done properly and without compromise I would expect a stand alone MC stage to beat any other option for a number of technical reasons which I won't bore folks with :)
I'm not really hardline one way or another Jez; I think you one can probably achieve good sound quality either way in a one box active solution or with SUT's or headamps providing all the equipment is matched properly. An extra set of interconnects always complicates things a bit and can have a downside.
I think the OP will be pleasantly surprised with your head amp as it should improve upon his gain situation in a positive way. If your headamp does provide 25 dB of gain, he'll move to 66.5 dB of gain (from his current 62 which is very light) which is awfully close to the 67 I was recommending. I'd prefer to see that cartridge loaded a bit higher than 270 ohms (maybe in the 400-500 range) but I have heard of users really loading it down. Problem with that is it will further, but slightly reduce output which will require a bit more gain again.
By the looks of the Primare site, Steve also has a further option of increasing the MM gain to 46.5 using an internal jumper. This is going to boost total phono gain into the 71.5 dB with the head amp which might be too much (I would expect it to be for my liking but this is a subjective hobby) with that load but that may also be worth a try.
In any event, Steve, you are definitely headed (pardon the pun haha!) in the right direction and I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised by what Jez's headamp will do for your situation.
Arkless Electronics
05-09-2016, 14:48
I'm not really hardline one way or another Jez; I think you one can probably achieve good sound quality either way in a one box active solution or with SUT's or headamps providing all the equipment is matched properly. An extra set of interconnects always complicates things a bit and can have a downside.
I think the OP will be pleasantly surprised with your head amp as it should improve upon his gain situation in a positive way. If your headamp does provide 25 dB of gain, he'll move to 66.5 dB of gain (from his current 62 which is very light) which is awfully close to the 67 I was recommending. I'd prefer to see that cartridge loaded a bit higher than 270 ohms (maybe in the 400-500 range) but I have heard of users really loading it down. Problem with that is it will further, but slightly reduce output which will require a bit more gain again.
By the looks of the Primare site, Steve also has a further option of increasing the MM gain to 46.5 using an internal jumper. This is going to boost total phono gain into the 71.5 dB with the head amp which might be too much (I would expect it to be for my liking but this is a subjective hobby) with that load but that may also be worth a try.
In any event, Steve, you are definitely headed (pardon the pun haha!) in the right direction and I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised by what Jez's headamp will do for your situation.
Yes of course one can achieve good sound either way but what I'm saying is there is no reason to believe an external step up will give better results than a standalone MC stage. As I said, done right, I would always expect better results from a standalone MC stage.
In the case of the OP I would expect bugger all difference between his phono stage on its own or set to MM and used with my head amp....
A head amp or SUT is of course intended to give MC capability to a phono stage (usually valve) with only MM input...
I'm afraid I disagree 100% with your views on gain.. each to their own;)
Well the proof will be in Steve's listening. My bet is there will be substantial differences in presentation between the Primare at 62 dB on the MC side when compared with your headamp providing it is offering 25 dB of gain, especially if Steve experiments with both MM gain settings in conjunction with the head amp.
Arkless Electronics
05-09-2016, 15:23
Well the proof will be in Steve's listening. My bet is there will be substantial differences in presentation between the Primare at 62 dB on the MC side when compared with your headamp providing it is offering 25 dB of gain, especially if Steve experiments with both MM gain settings in conjunction with the head amp.
Indeed Blake! :) personally I'm expecting that if he was not impressed with the DLS1 in the first place then this will make little difference. Probably very minor differences in presentation or tonal balance between the headamp+MM stage or the MC stage on it's own... Obviously as this headamp has fixed 270R loading it may be that the DLS1 needs something different (there wasn't room on the front panel of the box I used for the demo unit to add sockets for loading plugs! Simple as that...) and his own MC stage, with more loading options, can be set up to give better results than with the headamp for this reason.
It will be interesting to see what Steve reports!
Firebottle
05-09-2016, 16:15
If the gain structure isn't right mate, then it isn't right, no matter how you cut it. I repeat: it is NOT necessary for there to be a notable discrepancy between the playback levels of vinyl and CD, with any amplifier - and if you fix it, and achieve relative parity between both sources, it's very likely that you'll hear the subsequent sonic benefits when replaying vinyl!
That's certainly been my experience, and you *know* just how 'into' this stuff I am :)
Marco.
As far as my experience with the 'gain structure' of phono stages in particular goes, I will always promote a valve based stage as it almost certainly has a greater headroom than any transistorised stage, due to the higher supply voltages used. Much better handling of dynamics in the signal IMO.
I have also come to realise that 'boutique' capacitors don't always give the ultimate clarity of signal dependent on the signal level of the position in circuit. Now there is a can of worms :doh:
:)
Arkless Electronics
05-09-2016, 17:20
As far as my experience with the 'gain structure' of phono stages in particular goes, I will always promote a valve based stage as it almost certainly has a greater headroom than any transistorised stage, due to the higher supply voltages used. Much better handling of dynamics in the signal IMO.
I have also come to realise that 'boutique' capacitors don't always give the ultimate clarity of signal dependent on the signal level of the position in circuit. Now there is a can of worms :doh:
:)
Valve phono stages will indeed usually offer greater headroom than SS ones BUT correctly designed SS ones will have more than sufficient headroom for it to be a non issue IMO.
Obviously (to engineers:D) the gain structure inside the phono stage is very important indeed due to the need to maximise headroom and minimise noise.
"Gain structure" as Marco and others are using the term vastly less so. Yes it is quite possible to have a phono stage giving similar volume to a CD or other source for the same position of the volume control and this is a good thing from a convenience POV. No one wants either to find anything above "2" on the volume control is deafening or to have to turn the volume up to "8" for normal listening level!! Outside of this convenience/ease of use issue though it has nothing to do with sound quality.
your last sentence I agree with and have known this for a few years, although with capacitors in general rather than specifically "boutique" ones... which are often normal ones re-labelled with a x 10 price increase of course:eek:
P.S. Alan. Are you needing a THD meter? One can of course do it all with PC and sound card these days but personally I'm a traditionalist:eyebrows: I have a spare one which we could come to some arrangement over ;)
As far as my experience with the 'gain structure' of phono stages in particular goes, I will always promote a valve based stage as it almost certainly has a greater headroom than any transistorised stage, due to the higher supply voltages used. Much better handling of dynamics in the signal IMO.
Perhaps that's why I've always preferred the sound of the best ones I've heard, in comparison with their SS counterparts?
The best valve phono stages always seem to make vinyl 'come alive', in a way that defeats the SS stages I've heard. At the end of the day, all I can report is what I hear, and which I have formed an opinion on. However, I'm fully prepared to re-evaluate that opinion at any time, if presented with a good enough reason for doing so! ;)
I have also come to realise that 'boutique' capacitors don't always give the ultimate clarity of signal dependent on the signal level of the position in circuit. Now there is a can of worms
Lol - you guys have much more experience of using different caps than I have. However, on the few occasions I've installed 'boutique' ones, they've always been an improvement on the bog standard variety they've replaced. Those from, say, Mundorf and Clarity Cap, IME, are excellent :)
Marco.
"Gain structure" as Marco and others are using the term vastly less so. Yes it is quite possible to have a phono stage giving similar volume to a CD or other source for the same position of the volume control and this is a good thing from a convenience POV. No one wants either to find anything above "2" on the volume control is deafening or to have to turn the volume up to "8" for normal listening level!! Outside of this convenience/ease of use issue though it has nothing to do with sound quality.
I disagree, as my [extensive] experimentation in that area demonstrates differently, thus I can only report what I hear, much like Blake, whom you just ignore. If the reason I've given for what I've heard is technically wrong, fair enough. However, that doesn't automatically discount the existence of the phenomenon I've [very clearly and repeatedly] heard :)
Also, what you've outlined above is not the reason why I value having a healthy gain structure for vinyl replay.
Marco.
carruthersesq
05-09-2016, 20:53
Well, unfortunately family life (football practice and Judo) took over this evening after work and I haven't had the chance to play as yet!
No worries, mate. Let us know what you think of it when you get a chance :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 12:46
I disagree, as my [extensive] experimentation in that area demonstrates differently, thus I can only report what I hear, much like Blake, whom you just ignore. If the reason I've given for what I've heard is technically wrong, fair enough. However, that doesn't automatically discount the existence of the phenomenon I've [very clearly and repeatedly] heard :)
Also, what you've outlined above is not the reason why I value having a healthy gain structure for vinyl replay.
Marco.
It is indeed technically wrong. There is no technical reason for gain to effect sound quality and personally I completely discount it. YMMV.
That's cool, but I know what I'm hearing is right, so there must be something else going on, technically, which I can't explain properly, because I do *know* that I'm not imagining what I'm hearing... :)
Others, such as Blake (why do you always ignore him?) and Grant and Geoff, have also mentioned that insufficient gain in a phono stage (and not optimising the gain structure) leads to a 'weedy' and rather lifeless sound - and that's precisely what I hear. Simply turning up the volume doesn't cure the problem either.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 13:17
That's cool, but I know what I'm hearing is right, so there must be something else going on, technically, which I can't explain properly, because I do *know* that I'm not imagining what I'm hearing :)
Others, such as Blake (why do you always ignore him?) and Grant and Geoff, have also mentioned that insufficient gain in a phono stage (and not optimising the gain structure) leads to a 'weedy' and rather lifeless sound - and that's precisely what I hear. Simply turning up the volume doesn't cure the problem either.
Marco.
I have replied to several of Blakes posts so I don't know what you refer to there:scratch:
People are obviously free to hold whatever opinions they choose. Personally I 100% disagree that this effects sound and have nothing to add to the matter so for a quiet life will not participate in further discussion of this particular matter :)
Yes, sorry, you're right. You have replied to some of Blake's posts, but I was specifically referring to this one and the link to Walt Jung's views on the matter:
There are many engineers, Walt Jung among them (he has a bit of design experience as well-google him) who disagree with you.
http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/design-handbooks/P2%20Ch6_final.pdf
Take note of the first page. And we're actually talking about a .15 mV signal here.
Gain matching is probably one of the least understood areas among audiophiles, especially those using low output moving coil cartridges and is critical to fully realise optimal sound quality. Screw up the first level of amplification (the phono preamp) and all the gain in the world ahead of it cannot fix the problems with signal to noise, dynamic range and other aspects of fidelity. Yes, you can get sound by turning it up but it will not be close to what you can achieve with proper gain matching between phono pre and cartridge.
Too little is just as bad in the end as too much and both present problems. The issue will be further complicated by what's ahead of the cartridge and phono preamp: gain in the linestage, efficiency of speakers, etc. so there's a bit of a moving target here and many variables.
With low output moving coils (sub .5 mV) my experience is that the gain window is very small in any given system, probably 2 dB or less. But I have a phono preamp with infinitely variable gain so it's relatively easy for me to ascertain that.
Other issues to worry about as well, such as proper setup, loading, etc, but if you don't get the gain right with low output MC's, you are not even close to realising their potential. And the OP is pretty far off in this case in the gain area (again, with respect to the vast majority of systems) so that is where he should be looking first.
I often find when someone presents a counter-argument that challenges your viewpoint (and in this instance I'm referring to the views of Walt Jung on this subject), you just ignore it as if it didn't happen ;)
Did you download the pdf and read its contents, specifically the first page?
Anyway, if you have nothing further to say, fair enough. As we discussed on the phone, Jez, you certainly won't change my opinion on these matters simply by throwing words or 'facts' at me, as that won't cut it. I would need it demonstrated to me, via some form of listening test, that I was wrong. That's how the subjectivist mind works.
Until (or if) that happens, I'm happy to retain my current views on this subject :)
Marco.
Firebottle
06-09-2016, 14:03
The first page of the Walt Jung article is specifically detailing the requirement for the first amplifying device to have as low a noise level as possible.
This is classic system engineering, be it audio, radio or radar etc. as you cannot remove noise later on (keeping the same bandwidth).
:cool:
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 14:17
Yes, sorry, you're right. You have replied to some of Blake's posts, but I was specifically referring to this one and the link to Walt Jung's views on the matter:
I often find when someone presents a counter-argument that challenges your viewpoint (and in this instance I'm referring to the views of Walt Jung on this subject), you just ignore it as if it didn't happen ;)
Did you download the pdf and read its contents, specifically the first page?
Anyway, if you have nothing further to say, fair enough. As we discussed on the phone, Jez, you certainly won't change my opinion on these matters simply by throwing words or 'facts' at me, as that won't cut it. I would need it demonstrated to me, via some form of listening test, that I was wrong.
Until (or if) that happens, I'm happy to retain my current views on this subject :)
Marco.
I am very aware of all Walt Jungs publications and have read them all. I fully agree with him as he does with me. What is being discussed in the pdf is precisely the bits I referred to as very important in earlier threads IE the INTERNAL gain structure of a phono stage. This has zero to do with what you and Blake are postulating and I am certain Mr Jung would tell you the same as I have on the matter.
A tiny bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
There are people who still, in this day and age, believe the earth to be flat and are also "happy to retain my current views on this subject"
Like I said, I'm happy to concede that any explanation I've given for what I've heard may be technically wrong, but that doesn't necessarily mean what others and I are hearing doesn't exist. *That*, muchacho, is the crux of the matter :)
There are people who still, in this day and age, believe the earth to be flat...
Indeed, and I also remember, back in the day, how 'heretics' were treated when they dared suggest to the so-called 'cognoscenti', at the time, that it was actually round! And so it is today with the attitude of some engineers towards many aspects of the subjective side of audio ;)
Marco.
The first page of the Walt Jung article is specifically detailing the requirement for the first amplifying device to have as low a noise level as possible.
This is classic system engineering, be it audio, radio or radar etc. as you cannot remove noise later on (keeping the same bandwidth).
:cool:
Exactly. And how it becomes more and more difficult to eliminate/reduce that noise as you start to amplify lower and lower output voltages. It's why there are virtually no tube phono preamps with very high gain (say 70-75 dB) and most of the tube guys end up with SUT's and headamps with very low output (say below .25 or .3 mV) cartridges.
And as you pointed out earlier, the solid state guys have other things to worry about like overload. Audio is a minefield of compromises.
Saying gain is unimportant is like saying that the signal to noise ratio is unimportant.
Screw up the gain (and it's a lot easier to screw up when the signal you're boosting is minuscule and the amplification needs are dramatically higher) and you screw up the signal to noise ratio. It's technically as simple as that. Amplify more and more noise and the signal that you want to retrieve will be lost, more and more, in that noise. You will further amplify that noise and loss of signal as you move through the amplification stage. There are no magic bullets in line stage preamps or integrated amplifiers to clean all that crap up and remove it. It just gets amplified even more!
I can tell you one thing. In any resolving system (and I would expect Steve's to be pretty resolving) one will hear huge differences in noise levels with a 10 dB spread in gain with a .15 mV cartridge. That is to say that with the 3 different gain levels now available to Steve (62 dB through the MC input on his primare, 66.5 dB using the standard MM gain plus Jez's headamp, and about 71.5 dB using the higher MM gain plus Jez's headamp-he really should try that out as well) he will experience very different noise levels and, as a result, very different fidelity levels in creating exactly the same SPL's in his room. Obviously, his volume pot on his linestage will be at very different levels to do that. Without variable gain with a very low output MC, there will always be a compromise involved (dealers and manufacturers of phono stages don't want to tell you this-I'm amazed at some of the grossly mismatched phono stage/cartridge combinations that come out of supposedly very high end dealers-you read about them, and the problems they create in the audio forums) that is not obvious with the inability to vary gain, sometimes even from recording to recording, which further shows just how much compromise is involved in sound reproduction for all of us.
I would expect Jez's headamp, assuming it's well designed, to sound better in many ways in Steve's setup strictly because of the improved gain situation. And that is not to say that the combination would be intrinsically better than Steve's Primare if the Primare was modified to provide the amount of gain necessary to fully maximize the signal to noise ratio with the cartridge in use. In that situation, the Primare (or another active one box design) might be grossly superior.
In short listening comparisons there is the tendency to choose the "louder" (which in Steve's case would be the highest combined gain setting of around 71.5) but louder is not always better.
Marco's discussion of gain matching with digital is an entirely different kettle of fish. It really has nothing to do with what I intended to bring up originally here. I am not averse to gain matching in systems but it's not a priority of mine and the ability to pull it off is dependent on how the rest of the system following the phono pre matches up with it: sensitivity levels at input on the line stage, total line stage gain, efficiency of speakers etc. It is just more of the complicated analog puzzle we all have to deal with.
But gain in the phono stage as it relates to the output of the cartridge (particularly, and I don't mean to harp on this!!...with very low output MC's) is very technically important in achieving the best possible sound.
And I would bet that Steve is about to hear that.
Marco's discussion of gain matching with digital is an entirely different kettle of fish. It really has nothing to do with what I intended to bring up originally here. I am not averse to gain matching in systems but it's not a priority of mine and the ability to pull it off is dependent on how the rest of the system following the phono pre matches up with it: sensitivity levels at input on the line stage, total line stage gain, efficiency of speakers etc. It is just more of the complicated analog puzzle we all have to deal with.
Yup, but that's not really what I meant.
The point I was making was that, if the gain in the phono stage has successfully been optimised, as per how you suggest, then there won't be a massive discrepancy in terms of the sound output levels between vinyl and CD [as it is in my system], at any given point on the volume control.
Conversely, if you're having to advance the preamp volume control significantly more, when playing vinyl, compared with CD, to achieve the same loudness levels on playback, then it's likely that the sound quality you're experiencing with vinyl is compromised, simply because of a lack of gain *at source* in the phono stage.
But gain in the phono stage as it relates to the output of the cartridge (particularly, and I don't mean to harp on this!!...with very low output MC's) is very technically important in achieving the best possible sound.
And I would bet that Steve is about to hear that.
Precisely - and I fully agree! :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 19:11
Exactly. And how it becomes more and more difficult to eliminate/reduce that noise as you start to amplify lower and lower output voltages. It's why there are virtually no tube phono preamps with very high gain (say 70-75 dB) and most of the tube guys end up with SUT's and headamps with very low output (say below .25 or .3 mV) cartridges.
And as you pointed out earlier, the solid state guys have other things to worry about like overload. Audio is a minefield of compromises.
Saying gain is unimportant is like saying that the signal to noise ratio is unimportant.
Screw up the gain (and it's a lot easier to screw up when the signal you're boosting is minuscule and the amplification needs are dramatically higher) and you screw up the signal to noise ratio. It's technically as simple as that. Amplify more and more noise and the signal that you want to retrieve will be lost, more and more, in that noise. You will further amplify that noise and loss of signal as you move through the amplification stage. There are no magic bullets in line stage preamps or integrated amplifiers to clean all that crap up and remove it. It just gets amplified even more!
I can tell you one thing. In any resolving system (and I would expect Steve's to be pretty resolving) one will hear huge differences in noise levels with a 10 dB spread in gain with a .15 mV cartridge. That is to say that with the 3 different gain levels now available to Steve (62 dB through the MC input on his primare, 66.5 dB using the standard MM gain plus Jez's headamp, and about 71.5 dB using the higher MM gain plus Jez's headamp-he really should try that out as well) he will experience very different noise levels and, as a result, very different fidelity levels in creating exactly the same SPL's in his room. Obviously, his volume pot on his linestage will be at very different levels to do that. Without variable gain with a very low output MC, there will always be a compromise involved (dealers and manufacturers of phono stages don't want to tell you this-I'm amazed at some of the grossly mismatched phono stage/cartridge combinations that come out of supposedly very high end dealers-you read about them, and the problems they create in the audio forums) that is not obvious with the inability to vary gain, sometimes even from recording to recording, which further shows just how much compromise is involved in sound reproduction for all of us.
I would expect Jez's headamp, assuming it's well designed, to sound better in many ways in Steve's setup strictly because of the improved gain situation. And that is not to say that the combination would be intrinsically better than Steve's Primare if the Primare was modified to provide the amount of gain necessary to fully maximize the signal to noise ratio with the cartridge in use. In that situation, the Primare (or another active one box design) might be grossly superior.
In short listening comparisons there is the tendency to choose the "louder" (which in Steve's case would be the highest combined gain setting of around 71.5) but louder is not always better.
Marco's discussion of gain matching with digital is an entirely different kettle of fish. It really has nothing to do with what I intended to bring up originally here. I am not averse to gain matching in systems but it's not a priority of mine and the ability to pull it off is dependent on how the rest of the system following the phono pre matches up with it: sensitivity levels at input on the line stage, total line stage gain, efficiency of speakers etc. It is just more of the complicated analog puzzle we all have to deal with.
But gain in the phono stage as it relates to the output of the cartridge (particularly, and I don't mean to harp on this!!...with very low output MC's) is very technically important in achieving the best possible sound.
And I would bet that Steve is about to hear that.
As I have said several times now Gain structure inside the phono stage is critical (for the sake of this debate and as I use standalone MC stage myself we can indeed include a head amp in this) for all the reasons you mention and more.
Where I completely disagree with you and Marco is over the total gain being important. ie "how loud" the final signal is from the phono stage before being fed to either a passive or active preamp or integrated amp. This is of no matter whatsoever. If it's too quiet turn it up. It has zero bearing on sound quality.
I'm not actually sure there has not been a total communication breakdown here Blake and you are actually saying the same as me or not!?
I'm saying that once the gain internally or including a head amp is correct in terms of minimising noise and maximising headroom then it doesn't matter if the total is as low as 55 or as high as 75dB as this now relates to nothing more than the volume control position.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 19:15
So Steve, what's the verdict?
Lol - not need to SHOUT! :D
Ok, so surely if the gain structure inside the phono stage is properly optimised from the beginning, then given the use of an MC cartridge with a decent output voltage, the signal should be suitably 'healthy' enough to virtually equalise the playback volume of vinyl and CD on the preamp? Since I discovered that this was sonically important, all of my vinyl set-ups have achieved that.
I would argue that if that gain structure hasn't been thus optimised (or maximised) at the beginning, then that's why the volume on the preamp has to be turned up so much more with vinyl, than CD, and you end up with a weedy and lacklustre sound - and simply 'turning up the volume' on the line stage does zero to fix that problem.
For me, it's all about getting as much 'oomph' into the signal *at source* as possible, without veering into distortion [taking it to the max and then backing off slightly], so that the partnering preamp has a 'juicy' enough signal to work with further down the chain, in order to optimise sound quality. That's how I'm interpreting what Blake is saying, but I could be wrong.
Marco.
Just to clarify, and possibly complicate things further :lol::
I thought I was very clear initially in my first post that I felt (and I still do) that 62 dB of gain in the Primare was inadequate in most systems for a .15 mV cartridge so yes, I was discussing gain structure inside the phono preamp. It goes without saying that if 62 dB is not enough, then 55 or less than 60 is not going to cut it either. Conversely, higher gains can be just as problematic. My position, to be very clear, is that the optimal window for phono preamp gain (or gain inside the phono stage) for best sound quality with low output moving coils is probably within 2 dB. That 2 dB window, as I stated earlier, could be affected by other components upstream: passive phono preamps, high efficiency speakers etc. Most systems, however, are not dealing with issues like that. So if you're 4 or 6 dB light or heavy, let alone 10-15 dB, in the phono stage, all the turning it up or down at the linestage is not going to save you from less than optimal to horrendous sound. In most systems I would expect 67-69 dB of phono stage gain to be optimal with a .15 mV cartridge.
Get the gain right in the phono stage and I don't care where you are on the volume pot to achieve adequate SPL's or whether your digital matches up with your analog in terms of where you are on the volume pot (it may or it may not, there are a just too many variables based on all the different equipment out there and how it is configured!). You will only have the best sound quality with low output coils if you match gain at the phono stage very carefully with output from the cartridge.
Hopefully that's clear enough.
carruthersesq
06-09-2016, 21:11
So Steve, what's the verdict?
Jez
Not had a whole lot of time to listen but initial thoughts are that through the head amp into my Phono stage set to MM the output is even quiter and I need to turn the volume up further than when playing straight through my phono stage set to MC, which I wasn't expecting. I flipped back to MC to prove that point and my initial perception was correct.
Putting the head amp back in the chain again I can honestly say I don't hear much of a difference if any, even though I need to adjust volume changing from MC and MM.
I just don't think the Denon is for me/my system.
It goes without saying that if 62 dB is not enough, then 55 or less than 60 is not going to cut it either. Conversely, higher gains can be just as problematic. My position, to be very clear, is that the optimal window for phono preamp gain (or gain inside the phono stage) for best sound quality with low output moving coils is probably within 2 dB. That 2 dB window, as I stated earlier, could be affected by other components upstream: passive phono preamps, high efficiency speakers etc. Most systems, however, are not dealing with issues like that. So if you're 4 or 6 dB light or heavy, let alone 10-15 dB, in the phono stage, all the turning it up or down at the linestage is not going to save you from less than optimal to horrendous sound.
As far as that's concerned (particularly the bit in bold), we're singing from the same hymn sheet :thumbsup:
Btw, I agree that the actual position on the volume control used is unimportant. What *is* important is that the signal hitting said control has the requisite amount of 'oomph' (derived from optimising the gain structure inside the phono stage), in order to ensure that the sound produced doesn't lack drive and dynamic attack.
Marco.
As far as that's concerned (particularly the bit in bold), we're singing from the same hymn sheet :thumbsup:
Btw, I agree that the actual position on the volume control used is unimportant. What *is* important is that the signal hitting said control has the requisite amount of 'oomph' (derived from optimising the gain structure inside the phono stage), in order to ensure that the sound produced doesn't lack drive and dynamic attack.
Marco.
Bingo. It's a very fine line. Too much gain can put you in trouble heading the other direction as I mentioned before and as you touched on in one of your posts describing over saturated and aggressive sound.
Phono stage gain is not "one size fits all". It's almost one size fits all with MM's but with high output MC's, and medium to very low output MC's it is an entirely different beast.
Jez
Not had a whole lot of time to listen but initial thoughts are that through the head amp into my Phono stage set to MM the output is even quiter and I need to turn the volume up further than when playing straight through my phono stage set to MC, which I wasn't expecting. I flipped back to MC to prove that point and my initial perception was correct.
Putting the head amp back in the chain again I can honestly say I don't hear much of a difference if any, even though I need to adjust volume changing from MC and MM.
I just don't think the Denon is for me/my system.
Ah.... Hey-ho mate, at least you tried. That's certainly not the results I expected though, neither sonically or in terms of gain...
Marco.
Bingo. It's a very fine line. Too much gain can put you in trouble heading the other direction as I mentioned before and as you touched on in one of your posts describing over saturated and aggressive sound.
Phono stage gain is not "one size fits all". It's almost one size fits all with MM's but with high output MC's, and medium to very low output MC's it is an entirely different beast.
I completely concur. Get it wrong/sub-optimal either way, and you simply can't 'relax into' the music. It's just not a comfortable or rewarding listen.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 23:13
Just to clarify, and possibly complicate things further :lol::
I thought I was very clear initially in my first post that I felt (and I still do) that 62 dB of gain in the Primare was inadequate in most systems for a .15 mV cartridge so yes, I was discussing gain structure inside the phono preamp. It goes without saying that if 62 dB is not enough, then 55 or less than 60 is not going to cut it either. Conversely, higher gains can be just as problematic. My position, to be very clear, is that the optimal window for phono preamp gain (or gain inside the phono stage) for best sound quality with low output moving coils is probably within 2 dB. That 2 dB window, as I stated earlier, could be affected by other components upstream: passive phono preamps, high efficiency speakers etc. Most systems, however, are not dealing with issues like that. So if you're 4 or 6 dB light or heavy, let alone 10-15 dB, in the phono stage, all the turning it up or down at the linestage is not going to save you from less than optimal to horrendous sound. In most systems I would expect 67-69 dB of phono stage gain to be optimal with a .15 mV cartridge.
Get the gain right in the phono stage and I don't care where you are on the volume pot to achieve adequate SPL's or whether your digital matches up with your analog in terms of where you are on the volume pot (it may or it may not, there are a just too many variables based on all the different equipment out there and how it is configured!). You will only have the best sound quality with low output coils if you match gain at the phono stage very carefully with output from the cartridge.
Hopefully that's clear enough.
Now perfectly clear and yes... I totally disagree with you:)
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 23:14
Jez
Not had a whole lot of time to listen but initial thoughts are that through the head amp into my Phono stage set to MM the output is even quiter and I need to turn the volume up further than when playing straight through my phono stage set to MC, which I wasn't expecting. I flipped back to MC to prove that point and my initial perception was correct.
Putting the head amp back in the chain again I can honestly say I don't hear much of a difference if any, even though I need to adjust volume changing from MC and MM.
I just don't think the Denon is for me/my system.
Exactly as I expected;)
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 23:22
Ok then is there anybody who actually needs a head amp, ie doesn't already have a standalone MC stage, who would like to try the head amp before it comes straight back to me? This will almost exclusively be people using a valve phono stage which is MM only and wish to use MC cartridges with it..... or are already doing so using a SUT and would like to see what difference a head amp can make :)
Exactly as I expected;)
I have to say it's pretty difficult to see how anyone looking at this logically or technically could say this was the expected outcome.
Pretty clear that there's one of three things happening here:
1) some kind of problem in set up or with interconnects
2) the Primare is out of spec with respect to MM gain, MC gain or both
3) your headamp is out of spec and achieving much less than 25 dB of gain
Applying more gain does not result in having to turn the volume up higher to achieve similar SPL's-the opposite is what happens. So expecting this outcome is a bit like expecting 2 plus 2 to add up to 3.
Doesn't sound like Steve wants to pop the hood on the Primare and bump up the MM gain. In any event, as I said earlier, the Primare is a virtually perfect match with his AT 33 in the gain department on the MC input and Steve appears to be obtaining good results with that cartridge into that input so it is unlikely that input is out of spec.
Arkless Electronics
06-09-2016, 23:58
I have to say it's pretty difficult to see how anyone looking at this logically or technically could say this was the expected outcome.
Pretty clear that there's one of three things happening here:
1) some kind of problem in set up or with interconnects
2) the Primare is out of spec with respect to MM gain, MC gain or both
3) your headamp is out of spec and achieving much less than 25 dB of gain
Applying more gain does not result in having to turn the volume up higher to achieve similar SPL's-the opposite is what happens. So expecting this outcome is a bit like expecting 2 plus 2 to add up to 3.
Doesn't sound like Steve wants to pop the hood on the Primare and bump up the MM gain. In any event, as I said earlier, the Primare is a virtually perfect match with his AT 33 in the gain department on the MC input and Steve appears to be obtaining good results with that cartridge into that input so it is unlikely that input is out of spec.
Exactly the outcome I expected in terms of sound quality. As I say I 100% disagree with you on all this gain stuff.
This will be my last reply to anything on those lines as I'm not wasting my time discussing what I personally regard as yet more "voodoo".
Jez, as we discussed on the phone, disagree away, but you need to stop referring to other people's valid opinions in such a derogatory way. In that respect, "voodoo" is no less belittling than "bollocks". To denigrate someone's views like that is simply unnecessary and only succeeds in aggravating the person who's opinion you're so rudely dismissing.
Both Blake and I are intelligent and experienced enough people to know what we're listening to, whether you consider what we're hearing is 'mistaken' or not.
If I see you using that type of language again, it will simply be deleted without further warning. Learn to disagree with others without the need for being rude. Anyone with a modicum of manners and self-control should be capable of that.
Marco.
I have to say it's pretty difficult to see how anyone looking at this logically or technically could say this was the expected outcome.
Pretty clear that there's one of three things happening here:
1) some kind of problem in set up or with interconnects
2) the Primare is out of spec with respect to MM gain, MC gain or both
3) your headamp is out of spec and achieving much less than 25 dB of gain
Applying more gain does not result in having to turn the volume up higher to achieve similar SPL's-the opposite is what happens. So expecting this outcome is a bit like expecting 2 plus 2 to add up to 3.
Doesn't sound like Steve wants to pop the hood on the Primare and bump up the MM gain. In any event, as I said earlier, the Primare is a virtually perfect match with his AT 33 in the gain department on the MC input and Steve appears to be obtaining good results with that cartridge into that input so it is unlikely that input is out of spec.
Yup, for me, some sort of bad mismatch is going on in Steve's system, with the DL-S1. And in terms of the bit in bold, either the figures quoted are wrong/out of spec for the Primare or Jez's head amp is kicking out less than 25db. There can be no other logical explanation.
Marco.
Exactly the outcome I expected in terms of sound quality. As I say I 100% disagree with you on all this gain stuff.
This will be my last reply to anything on those lines as I'm not wasting my time discussing what I personally regard as yet more "voodoo".
And you wonder why you don't get more business?
Sometimes it's better to say nothing at all.
Yup, for me, some sort of bad mismatch is going on in Steve's system, with the DL-S1. And in terms of the bit in bold, either the figures quoted are wrong/out of spec for the Primare or Jez's head amp is kicking out less than 25db. There can be no other logical explanation.
Marco.
There could conceivably be an issue with the cartridge itself.
Yes, although unlikely, certainly in an electrical sense, it's a possibility.
Marco.
anthonyTD
07-09-2016, 08:20
The way the gain is controled, what devices you use to make, or control the gain, where the gain is made up, all [IMHO] have great affect on the over-all sonic impact of a phono-stage.:)
Valves have relatively low gain [and are very linear devices as is; over the Audio frequency bandwidth ] compared to even the humblest of small signal Transistors, or opamps, therefore, in most cases you actualy use all, or most of the gain of each valve to arive at the actual gain figure you desire. With solid state, your actualy having to jugle between using each devices gain structure [using feedback] to first linearise the devices usable frequency range within a given design, and having to waste much of its gain that is not needed through again,,,feedback.
I know some will look at this as a very basic and simplified explanation, but I hope it goes some in helping folk understand that gain' where good Audio Perception is concerned, is not as simple as how much do i need, and whats the easiest way of getting it!:)
A...
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2016, 11:09
Jez, as we discussed on the phone, disagree away, but you need to stop referring to other people's valid opinions in such a derogatory way. In that respect, "voodoo" is no less belittling than "bollocks". To denigrate someone's views like that is simply unnecessary and only succeeds in aggravating the person who's opinion you're so rudely dismissing.
Both Blake and I are intelligent and experienced enough people to know what we're listening to, whether you consider what we're hearing is 'mistaken' or not.
If I see you using that type of language again, it will simply be deleted without further warning. Learn to disagree with others without the need for being rude. Anyone with a modicum of manners and self-control should be capable of that.
Marco.
Marco this is getting beyond a joke! I have been careful to avoid using the word bollocks here for a start... I MUST be able to vociferously disagree with someone or thats my time on AOS over I'm afraid.
"foo" "voodoo" "bunkum" call it what the hell you like but that IMO is what this is and I must be able to hold that opinion and voice it otherwise this is censorship and I will not tolerate that
.
You yourself use far more derogatory and forceful terms in other contexts/threads/posts but it seems there is a "don't disagree with anything Marco strongly believes in or else" unwritten rule at play.
"I personally regard as yet more "voodoo"." is no different to "IMO this is foo" or any other such way of putting it. I have strong opinions on such matters, as you do, and I will put my opinions across as forcibly as you do yours.
If you expect me to reply to every subjective observation of the technically untenable variety along the lines of "whilst there is no technical explanation for this it must be real cos you say you heard it and therefore that trumps all my years of studying electronics and designing and building hi fi equipment, obviously all I know and the contents of all textbooks are bunkum and I bow down to the superiority of your ears" then you're having a laugh!
If you consider it unacceptable to argue the objectivist case with the same vigour as you argue the subjectivist case then please take this as notice of my resigning membership of the site as soon as I have made arrangements for return or demo items etc.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2016, 11:15
The way the gain is controled, what devices you use to make, or control the gain, where the gain is made up, all [IMHO] have great affect on the over-all sonic impact of a phono-stage.:)
Valves have relatively low gain [and are very linear devices as is; over the Audio frequency bandwidth ] compared to even the humblest of small signal Transistors, or opamps, therefore, in most cases you actualy use all, or most of the gain of each valve to arive at the actual gain figure you desire. With solid state, your actualy having to jugle between using each devices gain structure [using feedback] to first linearise the devices usable frequency range within a given design, and having to waste much of its gain that is not needed through again,,,feedback.
I know some will look at this as a very basic and simplified explanation, but I hope it goes some in helping folk understand that gain' where good Audio Perception is concerned, is not as simple as how much do i need, and whats the easiest way of getting it!:)
A...
Agreed. What I certainly do not personally agree with is the view being put forward here that the total gain must add up to a certain figure, +/- a couple of dB, which makes it such that the volume control position is much the same for phono and CD, (no matter how low the noise or how high the headroom) and that this is important for sound quality. This specifically is what a disagree with.
Marco this is getting beyond a joke! I have been careful to avoid using the word bollocks here for a start... I MUST be able to vociferously disagree with someone or thats my time on AOS over I'm afraid.
"foo" "voodoo" "bunkum" call it what the hell you like but that IMO is what this is and I must be able to hold that opinion and voice it otherwise this is censorship and I will not tolerate that
.
You yourself use far more derogatory and forceful terms in other contexts/threads/posts but it seems there is a "don't disagree with anything Marco strongly believes in or else" unwritten rule at play.
"I personally regard as yet more "voodoo"." is no different to "IMO this is foo" or any other such way of putting it. I have strong opinions on such matters, as you do, and I will put my opinions across as forcibly as you do yours.
If you expect me to reply to every subjective observation of the technically untenable variety along the lines of "whilst there is no technical explanation for this it must be real cos you say you heard it and therefore that trumps all my years of studying electronics and designing and building hi fi equipment, obviously all I know and the contents of all textbooks are bunkum and I bow down to the superiority of your ears" then you're having a laugh!
If you consider it unacceptable to argue the objectivist case with the same vigour as you argue the subjectivist case then please take this as notice of my resigning membership of the site as soon as I have made arrangements for return or demo items etc.
Wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier to simply say "I disagree", and leave it there? You may not agree with the technical explanation of what is being reported, but since you cannot hear what the reporter is hearing; you don't have the same ears, you cannot say the symptoms they perceive are wrong or incorrect.
No need for brinkmanship.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2016, 12:22
Wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier to simply say "I disagree", and leave it there? You may not agree with the technical explanation of what is being reported, but since you cannot hear what the reporter is hearing; you don't have the same ears, you cannot say the symptoms they perceive are wrong or incorrect.
No need for brinkmanship.
What technical explanation? No technical explanation has been put forward! A rough explanation of headroom V noise etc has been put forward and is largely correct, but, from there a leap in the dark has been made to saying the total "gain", "volume" (put it how you will), must be within some tightly controlled zone for completely subjective reasons which bear no technical scrutiny. At this point it becomes no more than a personal opinion which has no basis in science and as such, IMHO, no different to believing in healing crystals or telling the future from tea leaves. Now some people will genuinely believe in such things as teaomancy (or whatever it's called!) but most rational folks will regard it as "voodoo", "bunkum".... or whatever similar term you may wish to apply to it!.
As far as I was concerned I was, by, ameliorating my words with "I personally regard" and using the phrase "voodoo" instead of "bollocks" sticking to the spirit of what Marco had asked of me in this regard, and in fact I did make a conscious effort in my choice of words for just this reason... believe it or not! I was actually very surprised to see such a reply from Marco today.
To me this is getting bloody silly and approaching the point where any AOS member may say something like "in my opinion placing a mung bean on each speaker greatly improves the sound quality" and no one is allowed to say he's talking from where the sun doth not shine... The ridiculous and stupid statement (yes it is!) cannot be challenged and must be debated respectfully eh? Count me out!
A forum in which anyone's belief or opinion must be allowed to trump a thousand years of scientific enlightenment is not one I would wish to participate in I'm afraid
Wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier to simply say "I disagree", and leave it there? You may not agree with the technical explanation of what is being reported, but since you cannot hear what the reporter is hearing; you don't have the same ears, you cannot say the symptoms they perceive are wrong or incorrect.
No need for brinkmanship.
Exactly! Or the ridiculous histrionics.... :rolleyes:
Jez, it's *this* simple:
There is absolutely no need to qualify the fact that you disagree with someone, by stating that their contrary views are "bollocks", "voodoo", or whatever. Just say that you disagree, and state the technical reason(s) why, and leave it there. That is all I'm asking you to do.
So what on earth is your difficulty with that? :scratch:
Every other electronics engineer here is capable of expressing their views on audio, some of which are not entirely aligned with mine, without the need to use provocative language, so I don't see why you're any different. It's only YOU attracting the negative attention.
Marco.
Firebottle
07-09-2016, 12:57
I'm going to bat on Jez's side for a moment.
Please feel free to correct my understanding of your reasoning Jez if I have got it at all wrong.
As an engineer with much experience, when reading something of the sort 'the position of the volume control affects the ultimate fidelity', or worded differently but with the same meaning, one can immediately say 'that's rubbish'. But that is making the assumption that the volume position is the only thing being questioned, whilst every thing else is as perfect as possible.
No gain stage or device is perfect, you will never get a zero noise/infinite headroom stage, ....if only.
As an engineer I can see where Jez is coming from in disputing the 'absolute' statement for volume position. If everything else were perfect it wouldn't make a jot of difference where the gain was controlled, that is irrefutable.
The problem is every aspect of design entails one or, very likely, a lot of compromises.
The first of a phono amplifier is a good example, you want (need) low noise so you can't hear any extraneous noise in the background.
As hinted at previously for low noise working you want a large gain in the first stage. Too high a gain and you may run into headroom constraints from the output of this first stage, particularly if the design has passive RIAA equalisation.
If you have any scratches or pops and clicks from the record the spike in signal level can be many many times the usual level, so good headroom is a must in this instance.
In my opinion the 'sweet spot' for gain cannot be defined within a couple of dB's, as a couple of dB's is too small a change in level.
The sweet spot is going to be defined as far enough above the circuit noise and far enough below the max level/headroom capability of the unit so as not to corrupt the signal you want to hear.
So you are immediately back to all the compromises between noise and headroom, which will differ to a greater or lesser extent on the kit in question.
:)
Marco this is getting beyond a joke! I have been careful to avoid using the word bollocks here for a start... I MUST be able to vociferously disagree with someone or thats my time on AOS over I'm afraid.
You can vociferously disagree with someone, without simultaneously insulting them and/or their intelligence. It's the latter I have a problem with, not the former.
"foo" "voodoo" "bunkum" call it what the hell you like but that IMO is what this is and I must be able to hold that opinion and voice it otherwise this is censorship and I will not tolerate that...
Well, I'm afraid then that's where we hit a brick wall.
I will not tolerate anyone's legitimate opinion here, especially when such as that of others and mine, it has been derived from many years experience, being rudely dismissed as "voodoo" or "bunkum". You may as well just tell me to 'fuck off, you're talking shite', as the message is the same - and you know where that type of behaviour is liable to lead...
You're an intelligent man, Jez. Can you not see how disrespectful and insulting your remarks are to those holding the views that you consider as "bunkum"?? And you expect us just to sit back and take it? Get real!
If you can't see that and understand WHY you're out of order, then I'm sorry, but it probably is time for you to go.
Marco.
IAs an engineer with much experience, when reading something of the sort 'the position of the volume control affects the ultimate fidelity', or worded differently but with the same meaning, one can immediately say 'that's rubbish'. But that is making the assumption that the volume position is the only thing being questioned, whilst every thing else is as perfect as possible.
Exactly, Alan. One simply doesn't know (and neither does Jez) what else could be going on that's responsible for creating the effect with vinyl, which the likes of Blake and I can clearly and repeatedly hear, and have described in detail.
I'm not saying, however, for one second that the effect I'm hearing, and have described with gain, etc, is covered or proven by my explanation, but I do *know* that I'm hearing it!! That's the difference.
Therefore, I have no problem whatsoever with Jez holding whatever views he wants on audio, but what I won't tolerate is his desire to simultaneously demean and belittle mine.... :nono: :nono:
Nothing riles me more than that; indeed it's one of the primary reasons why this forum was created: to get away from such rude and belligerent dogma, not to mention personal insults. I simply won't tolerate that behaviour here from anyone.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
07-09-2016, 13:52
Can you not see how disrespectful and insulting it is to basically tell someone who is an expert in their field and has studied their subject for decades that their expert opinion is worth no more than that of someone who freely admits to knowing fuck all about electronics?
If someone tells me that they believe there are pixies at the bottom of their garden I'm going to tell them 'fuck off, you're talking shite', not waste my time respectfully debating the matter as if it held some credence, as I believe most people would also join me in doing.
Unlike you Marco I don't live in a world where nothing is right or wrong but everything is an opinion and must be treated as valid... even if it is patently bollocks! I am also quite certain I have seen you yourself use terms as strong as "that's bollocks", and stronger, in other threads/contexts when it suits you!
And no I don't care if I offend someone who is propagating mistruths upon an unsuspecting world. I'm one of those strange people who care infinitely more for truth, justice and principles than I do whether or not anyone likes me ;)
I intend to cease participation in everyday debate such as this from now on as if I can't speak my mind as I see fit without having to censor myself to fit in with your ideas Marco I would rather say nothing at all.
I know very little on medicine in comparison to my Doctor, but she listens and accepts my points. She doesnt tell me im talking bunkum. She also accepts there are plenty both she and her peers dont understand, and that things happen to work that dont appear correct medically.
You remind me of someone.
Can you not see how disrespectful and insulting it is to basically tell someone who is an expert in their field and has studied their subject for decades that their expert opinion is worth no more than that of someone who freely admits to knowing fuck all about electronics?
Yes, but that's not what is happening.
If someone tells me that they believe there are pixies at the bottom of their garden I'm going to tell them 'fuck off, you're talking shite', not waste my time respectfully debating the matter as if it held some credence, as I believe most people would also join me in doing.
Yes, but again that's not what is happening. Only in your head is that so.
Unlike you Marco I don't live in a world where nothing is right or wrong but everything is an opinion and must be treated as valid... even if it is patently bollocks! I am also quite certain I have seen you yourself use terms as strong as "that's bollocks", and stronger, in other threads/contexts when it suits you!
Never in the context where someone is simply relating their valid experiences. I would not be so rude.
And no I don't care if I offend someone who is propagating mistruths upon an unsuspecting world. I'm one of those strange people who care infinitely more for truth, justice and principles than I do whether or not anyone likes me ;)
I intend to cease participation in everyday debate such as this from now on as if I can't speak my mind as I see fit without having to censor myself to fit in with your ideas Marco I would rather say nothing at all.
No-one is stopping you from "speaking your mind", but simply not in a way that simultaneously results in insulting others.
However, the bit in blue bold (above) says it all for me, and so if you're so arrogant and superior as to consider that you have the right to judge others in that way, then you're not welcome here, so your account will be removed forthwith.
I'm sorry it's worked out that way, and we certainly tried our best, but you just simply don't fit in here, and nor will you on any other forum where both the subjectivist view is the majority, and people have enough manners and self-control to understand when they're behaving in a completely unsatisfactory manner.
I consider your selfish and disrespectful behaviour to be a total slap in the face to all I've done to help you and your business, and am extremely angry and disappointed. Good luck with it in future - you'll certainly need it!
Marco.
P.S Steve, if you wish to share more details of your experience with the DL-S1, then please start a new thread. And should you do that, anyone commenting on it must stick strictly to the thread topic. I don't want to see the argument here with Jez being regurgitated there.
I know very little on medicine in comparison to my Doctor, but she listens and accepts my points. She doesnt tell me im talking bunkum.
Precisely, but then she's a well-adjusted person with manners, both possessing a modicum of people skills and an inking of how to conduct herself with class, in the company of others, rather than an arrogant and ungrateful 'know-it-all', with zero manners, and a grossly overinflated valuation of his professional abilities.
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.