Uh wot's the deal with SPU's

[Slawts]

Hi,

It's a while since I posted on here but I think you may be just the ones to answer my vexed question.

I'm running an ESCO retipped Koetsu Black and am in the market for a new cartridge. The Black has come back in to replace a Benz Micro SL whose tip expired after over judicious application of that blutac stuff that everyone raves about.

I don't want to buy another the Benz. It was good but I would prefer to try another. The Koetsu is lovely but a touch vaguer at the extremes that the Benz.

My mind is for either a Blue or a Bronze Ortofon Cadenza. However I'm wondering whether an Ortofon SPU might suit as my deck is a Thorens TD550 with Ortofon 12 " (TA210) arm. Phono is the MM stage of the VTL (all valve) in to either a Noteworthy 1:10 step up or a Rothwell MCL (1:20). The Koetsu loves the Noteworthy.

Music tastes are rock as in Zep, Purple, Yes: folk rock as in Fairport Convention, Lindisfarne and Martin Stephenson and the Daintees. Finally not forgetting wizards and true stars as in Todd Rundgren.

Am I barking up the wrong tree or not?

Steve

[walpurgis]

A ZYX could be interesting.

[petrat]

If you like the Koetsu Black, then an SPU is very similar. I've had both at the same time, and thought the SPU was a bit more energetic, finding the Koetsu a bit 'lazy', particularly on a 12 inch arm.

The Cadenza Blue is more detailed, and 'hifi' in its presentation. The Bronze is supposed to be a half-way house, and is likely to be closer to your Benz ... although I haven't heard a Bronze tbh.

[IslandPink]

Definitely try SPU with that sort of ( excellent , well-recorded ) music !
Wouldn't stop you trying ZYX either, R-1000 was the best of the 'modern' high-end carts I've tried in my system, by some margin.

[Slawts]

Many thanks for the replies.

I had a look at the Zyx Yatra but the only review I could find used the 9" version of my arm which seemed to be a bit of a mismatch although they do sound as if they are fantastic with the right supporting kit.

The SPU sounds interesting but whether it's for me I don't know. As an example Someone Saved my Life Tonight by Elton John had fantastic delicacy and reverb on the cymbals with the Benz but less so with the Koetsu. If the former is new style and the latter old I'm probably with the new. I think it's moving towards the Cadenzas but the arm would look lovely with and SPU ;)

It would be interesting if someone had both and could give some insight.

Aah decisions decisions!

[daytona600]

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Ortofon-SPU-A95-copy3.jpg

but the arm would look lovely with and SPU - A95

[walpurgis]

I had a look at the Zyx Yatra but the only review I could find used the 9" version of my arm which seemed to be a bit of a mismatch although they do sound as if they are fantastic with the right supporting kit.

I use a ZYX Yatra in a Mission 774 (the original version) and it does sound superb. I have also owned a vintage SPU which sounded beautiful, but the Yatra has the edge in terms of resolution and depth.

[The Black Adder]

The SPU for me is the best cart I've ever owned... The sound is just perfect.

[Barry]

Electro-mechanical transducers such as cartridges and loudspeakers are the least 'perfect' items in the audio chain, so will always be a matter of individual taste.

I have great affection for the Ortofon SPUs, being the first implementation of the moving-coil principle. When Ortofon's patents lapsed in the early '70s, it encouraged the Japanese to produce a whole swath of MC designs; most of them were very good and a valid alternative to Ortofon's.

Of the MCs I'm familiar with, I would find it hard to favour an EMT or a Denon over the SPU. They all have a different, but equally acceptable presentation. But if I could, I would be equally interested in hearing Fidelity Research, Grace, Stax, Audio Note, Lyra, ZYX, Hama, Allnic, Dynavector, Miyajima and Transfiguration MCs.

[walpurgis]

I would like to try a Shelter MC. I've never used one.

When I bought my first ZYX, the Shelters were the next option on my list, but I plumped for the ZYX R50 Bloom H. Very chuffed I was with it too. Still got it (and three other ZYXs now :)).


I've owned two Fidelity Research MC-201 carts. I'd say anybody who likes the SPU will like the MC-201 as much.

I also had a Transfiguration Aria and found it a bit polite and lacking in 'wellie', in much the same way as the Denon DL-304 is.

A rare, but extremely nice MC is the Technics EPC-305MC. I used one for many years. The ZYX R50 Bloom superseded it.

[Infinitely Baffled]

Some of the SPU variants are required to track at very high VTFs, aren't they? I think I have seen 3.5 gms and even more. Isn't there a concern about high groove wear rates? I cannot imagine what the pressure must be along the stylus edges!
IB.

[DSJR]

I used to loathe the SPU with a vengeance, as all I ever heard from them was a full-on bass and soft highs. Hearing RD's one on his PL71 and using a phono stage I know and own myself (NVA Phono 2), I found it to be a rather subtle beast, with very low surface noise effects and a kind of 'master-tape/CD' precision and stability in the soundstage, if that makes any sense. It was so captivating, I'd love to try another one day, but in an up-to-date situation where it could 'sing' properly.

When my Koetsu Black was working properly (it broke an internal wire and awaits funds for a rebuild), it was glorious in a lower mass tonearm (not 12") and in my situation, never sounded thick or clogged, although I can understand it being this way - it's livelier than I remember the Red's or early Onyx models sounding, put it this way ;)

[walpurgis]

Some of the SPU variants are required to track at very high VTFs, aren't they? I think I have seen 3.5 gms and even more. Isn't there a concern about high groove wear rates? I cannot imagine what the pressure must be along the stylus edges!
IB.

My conical tipped sixties SPU tracked just fine at around 2.5 gm.

[Barry]

2.5g seems a bit light. I would expect to use 3.0 - 4.0g for an early conical tipped SPU.

[Marco]

I used to loathe the SPU with a vengeance, as all I ever heard from them was a full-on bass and soft highs. Hearing RD's one on his PL71 and using a phono stage I know and own myself (NVA Phono 2), I found it to be a rather subtle beast, with very low surface noise effects and a kind of 'master-tape/CD' precision and stability in the soundstage, if that makes any sense. It was so captivating, I'd love to try another one day...

Lol... Another one of those 'seminal learning curves', eh Dave, no doubt inspired by the little chats we'd had up until that point about the SPU, where as you say your opinion of them at that point was somewhat 'off-beam' :eyebrows:;)

Anyway, I'll be back in a bit to offer Steven my advice, as I know the SPU inside out (have used and heard various models from vintage to modern), and I've also heard the Cadenza Bronze, so I can definitely help :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Not 'off-beam' Marco, as they really can - and did - easily sound thick, clogged, dull and squishy - an over egged Supex/old Koetsu style with a laughably 'wrong' character I remember. Hearing RD's sample for an afternoon a year or so ago helped me focus on what it is you people are going on about when you refer to one of these in hushed tones and I did very much admire the stability of the soundstage and its easy way with clarity and surface noise and so on. Whether I could live with one I don't know and in any case, vinyl is very much a secondary medium for me these days, but it did sound very good in a restrained kind of way and I came away impressed with what I heard - had it been ill defined or ragged at high frequencies, the playback system would have made absolute mincemeat of it. I think the PL71 may have had a lot to do with it as I've since heard it with more humble cartridges and it does indeed do so much right - a shame it was all but bypassed at the time and probably gone before anyone really noticed :(

[Marco]

Not 'off-beam' Marco, as they really can - and did - easily sound thick, clogged, dull and squishy - an over egged Supex/old Koetsu style with a laughably 'wrong' character I remember...

Well, I've owned about five different SPUs, from early vintage models, to top-of-the-range current ones, heard countless more in other systems, and none have sounded like that, Dave, otherwise I wouldn't have entertained using them.

Thus I simply don't believe what you heard, and have reported above, was inherent in the SPU sound, and almost certainly due to set-up/incompatibility issues with the test system at the time - perhaps incorrect loading, insufficient gain in the phono stage, worn records and/or styli or something along those lines? Can I ask specifically which SPU(s) you heard which were like that? Were they modern or vintage examples, and did they have conical or elliptical tips?

Properly set-up and partnered, with styli in good condition, using pristine condition records, SPUs should sound as you described on the PL-71 you listened to, as that's what I've always heard with every example I've owned, to lesser or greater degrees, depending on the model concerned. "Thick, dull and squishy" is fundamentally *not* the SPU sound. If it sounds that way, blame the set-up, the gear - or the wax in your ears! ;)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning for one second what you heard, simply the reasons behind it :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

It's so long ago since I first heard an SPU (I think it was on a 301 with old Ortofon tonearm) and I suspect all your own memories are from the last ten years and with decent examples on proper turntables with the cartridge properly matched and set up. Like I said, on the system I heard it on last year (can't remember which model SPU but I think it's an elliptical tip version), it was stable, subtle and absolutely secure in sound and groove-tracing. So I'm not disagreeing with you about it at all.

[Slawts]

WOW! This is fantastic! Some of the comments on here are excellent and others most amusing and great banter. :lol:

My Logical side says that the Cadenza Bronze will suit. My emotional side says the SPU as in the words of my son in law it looks "banging"!

When I do a comparison test I normally use the following tracks to represent my and "er indoors" musical tastes. This might give an indication as to where my particular path should lead.

Fire and Rain - James Taylor - should have clear emotional vocals, good drama and tuneful bass and drums.

So Far Away - Carole King - slightly bright pressing, should be dripping with emotion.

Burning Wheel - Primal Scream - a mess of a recording, should prickle with excitement, lots of electricity and Mani's driving bass.

Night on a Bare Mountain - Mussorsky - The heavens should open and the Gods of Wrath ride down. If you're not cowering behind the sofa something's wrong.

Wooden Ships - CSN - On the right system they sound angry and they mean it with wonderful musicianship. On the wrong system it sounds bland.

Trampled Underfoot - Led Zeppelin - Metronomic rhythm, big drums, soaring guitar and vocals.

Saturday Night Special - Lynyrd Skynyrd - Big rock out with combative twin guitar leads. Smells of Whiskey.

Someone Saved My Life Tonight - Elton John - Big production values, filigree cymbal detail, big vocal, reverb, tingle down spine.

Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd - Last song, Greatest ever guitar solo apart from Goodbye to Love by the Carpenters.

If a cartridge can get my mojo working on those then we are in business :)

Steve

[Ali Tait]

Not tried an SPU as yet, but the Benz Gullwing SLR I currently use is a great sounding device.

[DSJR]

Nothing to do with the cartridge, but any of the discussed ones will make your CD player sound the weedy snappy and shallow thing it can be. Once you've got the vinyl 'thang' done and dusted, PLEASE look out for a used FlatCap 2 for the CD spinner. Its analogue output circuit will almost definitely thank you for it, in all the ways 'we've' been discussing about the cartridges.

[Slawts]

David, I hardly use the CD player so won't be bothering with a Flat Cap/Hi Cap/ Somewhere in the Middle Cap.

I usually rip my CD's or get High Res downloads especially from B&W's Society of Sound. I then play it through my Fiio X3 via an Audiolab QDac.

Steve

[Slawts]

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

In the end I bought a reconditioned Jubilee via Ortofon's Treasure Trove and very nice it sounds too! :) I've only had the weekend to try it but it knocks the socks off my (admittedly long in the tooth) Koetsu and the Benz Micro Wood I accidentally killed.

Happy days are here again. :lol:

Best

Steve