Balanced power supplies

[The Black Adder]

Hi all.

The whole balanced power thing has gone pretty quite of late so I've been reading back some posts regarding the Airlink balanced PSU units and wondered if anyone here are still using one or have found anything better for the same kind of outlay?

The last time I looked in to this, Airlink were making some great units. They have now started making units with filtering and conditioning. Can anyone recommend these over the standard types?

Is it best to go as big as you can in regards to VA?

The next thing is... what do you run though the Balanced unit? Amp, pre + sources etc? My amp is Class A so that was my main concern too.

Thanks
Jo :)

[YNWaN]

Hmm... that would also be my concern - what amp is it?

Regarding Va, yes, the bigger the better. Regarding filtration and conditioning, well I wouldn't have either.

Edit, oh, is the amp the Tube Distinctions Copper? I'm afraid I don't know anything about them.


100% Analogue

[The Black Adder]

Hi, Thanks Mark.

Yes it's a copper. Big valve jobbie.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Regarding Va, yes, the bigger the better.

Up to a point, where the complexity of controlling in rush current including fusing enters usually at about 500VA or higher
Delayed or slow turn on then becomes paramount usually using thermistors.

[Sovereign]

Hi Jo

Here is a thread of mine, there is a bit too much waffle on it, but not sure if it's helpful

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?34309-New-Balanced-Power-supply

[YNWaN]

Up to a point, where the complexity of controlling in rush current including fusing enters usually at about 500VA or higher
Delayed or slow turn on then becomes paramount usually using thermistors.

None of that is the remit of a balanced transformer feed, the equipment upstream of that should be able to resolve those issues or is very poorly designed. It's certainly not the role of such equipment to limit the inrush current.

[danilo]

Hi all.

The whole balanced power thing has gone pretty quite of late so I've been reading back some posts regarding the Airlink balanced PSU units and wondered if anyone here are still using one or have found anything better for the same kind of outlay?

The last time I looked in to this, Airlink were making some great units. They have now started making units with filtering and conditioning. Can anyone recommend these over the standard types?

Is it best to go as big as you can in regards to VA?

The next thing is... what do you run though the Balanced unit? Amp, pre + sources etc? My amp is Class A so that was my main concern too.

Thanks
Jo :)

Small aside: Nelson Pass fits 300Va torroids to his Firstwatt builds (he assembles them all Himself by the way )
He says that More is Unnecessary.. period.
Also there is No direct regulation, deemed as not useful in His "a" designs and the CL60's do an Outstanding job of inrush control.
Firstwatt amps are as Silent as a Tombstone. Very Impressive IMO.
But.. Audio Weenies typically always think they need More... of whatever.. catches their fancy

Understandibly so..because their Amp design knowledge is superior :eyebrows:

[Ali Tait]

None of that is the remit of a balanced transformer feed, the equipment upstream of that should be able to resolve those issues or is very poorly designed. It's certainly not the role of such equipment to limit the inrush current.

I think he is talking about the balanced transformer itself. I had to fit an NTC to the 3kva I built to stop it tripping my CU.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks very much for the input, guys :)

Thanks to James too for the linky. I totally missed that post and for some reason the forum search didn't bring it up!

That thing looks proper meaty, James. One question, I too heard that EI transformers are better for the job. Have you ever compared the two, EI and the Tractor tyre? :) lol

What I'd like to do is at least is run my amp and well, everything else for that matter though it as that bit makes sense to me. I know these things could be system dependant but it's good to have the flexibility. Would that be best at 3000VA or 5000VA?

Is that possible with the one you have made?

[Barry]

Thanks very much for the input, guys :)

Thanks to James too for the linky. I totally missed that post and for some reason the forum search didn't bring it up!

That thing looks proper meaty, James. One question, I too heard that EI transformers are better for the job. Have you ever compared the two, EI and the Tractor tyre? :) lol

What I'd like to do is at least is run my amp and well, everything else for that matter though it as that bit makes sense to me. I know these things could be system dependant but it's good to have the flexibility. Would that be best at 3000VA or 5000VA?

Is that possible with the one you have made?

Were I interested in using a balanced-mains power supply, I would prefer to use either a bi-limboid transformer or one with E-I laminations, rather than a "tractor tyre" (:lol:) toroidal, as was discussed by Philip Mount in an article in Hi-Fi World some time ago (I'll see if I can find it).

3kVA should be ample, but remember a toroid having a rating of more than ~100VA can be prone to lamination buzz due to any DC offset present (>100mV) on the incoming mains supply.

[Barry]

Small aside: Nelson Pass fits 300Va torroids to his Firstwatt builds (he assembles them all Himself by the way )
He says that More is Unnecessary.. period.
Also there is No direct regulation, deemed as not useful in His "a" designs and the CL60's do an Outstanding job of inrush control.
Firstwatt amps are as Silent as a Tombstone. Very Impressive IMO.
But.. Audio Weenies typically always think they need More... of whatever.. catches their fancy

Understandibly so..because their Amp design knowledge is superior :eyebrows:

Since when did Nelson Pass become deified?

[struth]

Lol

[Yomanze]

If you've got a bit of DC riding on the mains, like I do, then using balanced mains can actually make the sound worse due to the huge toroids buzzing. The solution is to use a DC blocker.

I have one, but haven't missed it since I disconnected it.

Uniquely (I think), my DAC has balanced mains built in.

[Sovereign]

That thing looks proper meaty, James. One question, I too heard that EI transformers are better for the job. Have you ever compared the two, EI and the Tractor tyre? :) lol

What I'd like to do is at least is run my amp and well, everything else for that matter though it as that bit makes sense to me. I know these things could be system dependant but it's good to have the flexibility. Would that be best at 3000VA or 5000VA?

Is that possible with the one you have made?

Hi Jo

I've never used an EI transformer, I would love to try. The problem, as I understand it is finding a manufacture who will make a quality product, although I could be wrong.
If your asking me if its possible to run your whole system from my BPS then yes, with PLENTY of spare capacity. It's usually those that have never tried a BPS that say they are system dependent, I bet my bottom dollar you would be impressed with the results. I wouldn't go any higher than 3kVa, not unless you plan to run your whole street from it. :stalks:

[Gazjam]

Still use my Airlink to power all my kit, no problem running a 300B SET poweramp from it.
Obvious improvement, particularly with sources.

The valve amp is "different" rather then better.
More low end grunt straight from the wall, though mids and top end is preferrable from the BPS.

[topoxforddoc]

Josie,

I use a Power Inspired AG1500 (1500VA) regenerator to supply my TRON Voyager 20B 6W SET (as well as my TRON preamp, Seven phono stage and Avantgarde Duo powered subs). I checked my mains voltage with a meter plug and it was running at 245-249V with DC on the mains. Hence I was getting transformer hum. I tried a 500VA Trichord Powerblock first. This just hummed louder than my amplifier power trafos. However, once I went to a mains regenerator, the hum disappeared and the SQ improved dramatically.

Charlie

[Macca]

Hi Jo

I've never used an EI transformer, I would love to try. The problem, as I understand it is finding a manufacture who will make a quality product, although I could be wrong.
If your asking me if its possible to run your whole system from my BPS then yes, with PLENTY of spare capacity. It's usually those that have never tried a BPS that say they are system dependent, I bet my bottom dollar you would be impressed with the results. I wouldn't go any higher than 3kVa, not unless you plan to run your whole street from it. :stalks:

I tried one and although it did change the sound I didn't consider it an improvement and preferred the sound without it. Some of the best systems I have heard were just plugged into a standard wall socket and run off nasty standard mains. Some of the worst have used several grand's worth of mains regeneration. If there is some common factor going on then it eludes me.

[topoxforddoc]

Martin,

It depends a bit on your system and the sensitivity of your speakers. My horns are 104 dB/W and are ruthless at revealing any circuit or extraneous noise. The Platine Verdier with Battery PSU is really quiet with a low noise floor as well. Hence, I can hear extraneous noise (circuit noise, trafo hum etc) very easily. DC on the mains is easily audible on my system and is quite intrusive - hence I was delighted when the AG1500 got rid of it all.

Charlie

[wee tee cee]

I run a airlink 1500....have done for a few years when Ali tate gave the Scottish troops a fright with what his own built BMU did. Havent heard mine make anything sound worse!!!

I suppose it depends on how good your mains are.

[Gazjam]

I run a airlink 1500....have done for a few years when Ali tate gave the Scottish troops a fright with what his own built BMU did. Havent heard mine make anything sound worse!!!

I suppose it depends on how good your mains are.

This.
Mines were shit.

[Sovereign]

I had a Power Inspired AG1500 and found it quite effective. I wouldn't say I had noisy mains at all, other than the crap on the mains that we all battle with. In the end I ran the AG 1500 and a 3kVa together which increased the performance further, this was all before I build what I have now.

[The Black Adder]

Hmm. Thanks guys.

Can someone tell me the advantages of going 'over sized' in regards of 'VA' or is that just a 'man' thang?

My amp has a 630mA fuse and my Pre has a 6.3A fuse. So that is what the very maximum draw would be I take it. Other things that are on the same plug socket are Turntable, CD player, RPI, 2x hard drives. All of which together can't be very much.

So, (hope I've got this right) this means my pre and power amp (most power hungry of my kit) would be 630A *250v = 160w *2 = 320w

Given that a 1000VA unit is good for 600w surely this is enough? And adding the rest of the kit wouldn't even break a sweat.

[JohnJo]

Hmm. Thanks guys.

Can someone tell me the advantages of going 'over sized' in regards of 'VA' or is that just a 'man' thang?

My amp has a 630mA fuse and my Pre has a 6.3A fuse. So that is what the very maximum draw would be I take it. Other things that are on the same plug socket are Turntable, CD player, RPI, 2x hard drives. All of which together can't be very much.

So, (hope I've got this right) this means my pre and power amp (most power hungry of my kit) would be 630A *250v = 160w *2 = 320w

Given that a 1000VA unit is good for 600w surely this is enough? And adding the rest of the kit wouldn't even break a sweat.

Hi Jo

6.3amp v 240V = 1500W give or take so you best look at 2KVA minimum, not that your amp will be drawing that kind of power, suspect it's just to allow for transformer inrush.

[DSJR]

I tried one and although it did change the sound I didn't consider it an improvement and preferred the sound without it. Some of the best systems I have heard were just plugged into a standard wall socket and run off nasty standard mains. Some of the worst have used several grand's worth of mains regeneration. If there is some common factor going on then it eludes me.

I use the above macca returned NVA BMU and it made an improvement here, to the point that when I removed it, I missed it so much it went back within a couple of days, where it remains. I believe your stereo has changed a fair bit since then Macca, so maybe consider trying one again, wherever it comes from?

Martint on TAS has or had a very bad mains and his main choice was an expensive full high power regenerator I understand, which all but cured the problem at source, but he did comment favourably on the BMU at the time when used with it I think from memory.

It's been said (and forgotten/ignored) many times that the transformer VA rating does NOT have to be the addition of all the VA ratings of the gear connected to it. It would appear that for most domestic situations, where amps and so on are not being thrashed to maximum dissipation continuously, a 500VA is perfectly and more than adequate.

[The Black Adder]

lol... Thanks, Jon, Dave... confused I will be.

so... 2000VA or 500VA... :scratch:

I've just learned that the larger VA the lower the impedance will be. But does that negate somewhat when using an EI core opposed to a Toroid?

Sorry for the daftee questions, just on a learning curve here.

[Macca]

I use the above macca returned NVA BMU and it made an improvement here, to the point that when I removed it, I missed it so much it went back within a couple of days, where it remains. I believe your stereo has changed a fair bit since then Macca, so maybe consider trying one again, wherever it comes from?

.

Dave, no, my system is still identical to how was with the BMU in. I've swapped a few speakers in and out but still with the Akais as 1st choice. I think that based on what others have said the main reason it did nothing for me was that I don't have a mains issue in the first place. On the negative side when swapping it back out I felt then that it had been slightly constricting dynamics and as I usually play at quite high SPL, in a large room sat a long way from the speakers this mattered to me; likely it would not even be noticeable to those using only moderate volume closer in field, and perhaps with a gentler taste in music.

[Ali Tait]

lol... Thanks, Jon, Dave... confused I will be.

so... 2000VA or 500VA... :scratch:

I've just learned that the larger VA the lower the impedance will be. But does that negate somewhat when using an EI core opposed to a Toroid?

Sorry for the daftee questions, just on a learning curve here.

No don't think so, will be the same.

[Mark Grant]

My amp has a 630mA fuse and my Pre has a 6.3A fuse. So that is what the very maximum draw would be I take it. Other things that are on the same plug socket are Turntable, CD player, RPI, 2x hard drives. All of which together can't be very much.

You ideally need to measure each device with something like this to give a guide as to the power consumption, they aren't really accurate but a good guide:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Energenie-ENER007-Power-Meter/dp/B003ELLGDC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472589699&sr=8-1&keywords=energy+monitor+power+meter

[The Black Adder]

You ideally need to measure each device with something like this to give a guide as to the power consumption, they aren't really accurate but a good guide:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Energenie-ENER007-Power-Meter/dp/B003ELLGDC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1472589699&sr=8-1&keywords=energy+monitor+power+meter

Hi Mark.

I have just done an experiment with my house energy meter. Isolating everything (starting with 0.01kW) and with just the hifi on in the house, all my audio kit runs at 0.36kW

Is that any help?

[Mark Grant]

That's hardly anything really, 360 watts for everything on your hi-fi :)

So a 1000VA transformer will be plenty or two or more smaller transformers to keep noisy devices on their own supply rather than joining everything together.

[The Black Adder]

That's hardly anything really, 360 watts for everything on your hi-fi :)

So a 1000VA transformer will be plenty or two or more smaller transformers to keep noisy devices on their own supply rather than joining everything together.

Hi Mark.

Hey, that's a good idea! :)

[DSJR]

Dave, no, my system is still identical to how was with the BMU in. I've swapped a few speakers in and out but still with the Akais as 1st choice. I think that based on what others have said the main reason it did nothing for me was that I don't have a mains issue in the first place. On the negative side when swapping it back out I felt then that it had been slightly constricting dynamics and as I usually play at quite high SPL, in a large room sat a long way from the speakers this mattered to me; likely it would not even be noticeable to those using only moderate volume closer in field, and perhaps with a gentler taste in music.

Thanks for clarification :)

Off topic, but it's been said by many people over the years and heard by me also, that excessive 'loudness' often means distortion. When able to play a proper stereo able to go really loud without strain, and also standing very close to a drum kit and brass section in full flow, I've been shocked how 'loud' the volume actually is when trying to speak to others nearby although it's not 'loud' in a distorting stereo sense. Sometimes I think, a further lack of harshness in an audio system can be perceived as 'not as loud...' Just a thought, but it's important I think - remember, I sold 'exciting sounding' Linn/Naim systems for a long time and my Gawd, did most of them take off big time when pushed too hard - fans call it shiver-down-the-spine 'excitement...'

[Macca]

True enough Dave If your thinking 'that's too loud turn it down', it is because of distortion, in speakers or amps or both, not because it is actually too loud. You should only notice it was too loud when the music stops and you realise your ears are ringing.

[The Black Adder]

Room acoustics can also contribute to distortion don't forget.

[anthonyTD]

Hi All,
If it was me, I would prefer to get a decent I and E transformer wound for the job, they are better for this paticular job for a few reasons, one, they do not pose the same low impedance to the mains on initial switch on as a large toroid would, hence you can go bigger without having to worry that it will trip out your supply every time you switch it on, secondly, I and E transformers [in genral] are worse at transfering high frequencies to start with than Toroids, so you have a natural filter affect at high frequecies. Plus, from experience, a large well designed I and E transformer should be mechanicaly quiter than an equivilent VA rated Toroid.

Edit,,,
Just reading through some of the earlier pages of this thread, and realised that some of my ramblings here have already been sugested/mentioned.:D
A...