Shocked

[Kit1cat]

I have recently been using my old turntable more and more, a Rotel RP-850 fitted with a Goldring 1020 cartridge both purchased in the late 80's and was shocked to see a replacement stylus would cost me £155, the complete cartridge only cost £49.

[narabdela]

You can buy a better MM cartridge for less than £155.

Discuss. :sofa:

[Arkless Electronics]

Cartridges have become silly money these days....

[Kit1cat]

You can buy a better MM cartridge for less than £155.

Discuss. :sofa:

Yes, that will probably be the way to go, when needed. :)

[daytona600]

You can buy a better MM cartridge for less than £155.

Discuss. :sofa:

£155 almost the price of a RCM £200 & they double stylus life
or try a ortofon 2M Blue

[Barry]

£155 almost the price of a RCM £200 & they double stylus life
or try a ortofon 2M Blue

Do you have any measurements/experience to support that statement?

[daytona600]

Yes 30 years experience & never play a record without cleaning it 1st
3-5 years lifespan when using top of the range cartridges from Ortofon & Koetsu which cost about a fiver to play a record
& customers experience running £10,000+ Moving Coils

[Barry]

Yes 30 years experience & never play a record without cleaning it 1st
3-5 years lifespan when using top of the range cartridges from Ortofon & Koetsu which cost about a fiver to play a record
& customers experience running £10,000+ Moving Coils

Well if you never play a record without cleaning it first, how do you know it doubles stylus life?

3-5 years life span is a meaningless figure, unless one knows how much playing time has been made.

[walpurgis]

Does the average person who plays records pay more than £50 for a cartridge?

[Macca]

The average enthusiast does. By a fair margin I suspect.

[walpurgis]

The average enthusiast does. By a fair margin I suspect.


Ah, but I didn't say enthusiast. Many people play records.



(I admit I spent a little more than £50 myself :))

[Barry]

The average enthusiast does. By a fair margin I suspect.

Yes, Koetsus and other high-end cartridges can cost up to £5,000. So at the quoted "about £5 a record", or £7.50 an hour, that implies a stylus life time of about 660 hours. Not much different to the typical 1,000 hours lifetime expected of a stylus.

But is the stylus lifetime really doubled if records are cleaned using an RCM?

[walpurgis]

1000 hours seems a little short Barry. ZYX quote 2000 hours, which I'd have thought probably typical of modern MCs and I'd expect many to exceed this. I'm sure some of my cartridges have.

[Macca]

Yes, Koetsus and other high-end cartridges can cost up to £5,000. So at the quoted "about £5 a record", or £7.50 an hour. that implies a stylus life time of about 660 hours. Not much different to the typical 1,000 hours lifetime expected of a stylus.

But is the stylus lifetime really doubled if records are cleaned using an RCM?

I'd say it is significantly increased. Sufficiently so that the RCM will pay for itself quite quickly if using £100 plus styli and putting in a lot of vinyl hours a week. But hard to quantify the variables. Someone who has bought all their records new and been very careful might get the same lifetime as someone who buys a lot of used records and cleans them properly.

[Barry]

Depends on the stylus profile. Quality control personnel, checking the quality of LPs using headphones, could discern stylus wear after only 200 hours.

I think 1,000 hours is typical - I wouldn't expect much more than 2,000.

[daytona600]

Yes, Koetsus and other high-end cartridges can cost up to £5,000. So at the quoted "about £5 a record", or £7.50 an hour, that implies a stylus life time of about 660 hours. Not much different to the typical 1,000 hours lifetime expected of a stylus.

But is the stylus lifetime really doubled if records are cleaned using an RCM?

2000 hours for a £10k ( $15K ) = £5 per hour cartridge like Clearaudio Goldfinger or Koetsu Stone body
1000 hours then stylus starts to go " off " with a lifespan of about 2000 hours when speaking to cartridge designers
high end cartridges do have much longer lifespans

Even a mid price cartridge £150-£500 a RCM will pay for itself on stylus replacement or re-builds
not to mention sounding better & reduced record wear & gets rid of the static , pops & clicks

[walpurgis]

Anybody experimented with 'wet playing'?

[Barry]

Anybody experimented with 'wet playing'?

I think some enthusiasts who have been plagued with static problems have reported success, but it's not something I would undertake lightly.

[Barry]

I'd say it is significantly increased. Sufficiently so that the RCM will pay for itself quite quickly if using £100 plus styli and putting in a lot of vinyl hours a week. But hard to quantify the variables. Someone who has bought all their records new and been very careful might get the same lifetime as someone who buys a lot of used records and cleans them properly.

That's my experience. Whilst I agree that an RCM is an essential piece of kit (especially for someone whith more than say 200 LPs), I don't believe that cleaning a record once with an RCM will double the stylus lifetime. It is just as important in my opinion, possibly more so, to inspect and clean the stylus regularly.

[Kit1cat]

Sounds like I am lucky mine is still working after nearly 30 years :)

[danilo]

Does the average person who plays records pay more than £50 for a cartridge?

Used to.. in My misspent youth.
No longer, as with care in selection, cheapo carts seem to Outdo ones (of Yore) that I paid significantly larger for.
I've No interest in fitting MC carts.. despite the awareness of them being more precise.. due to all the complexities associated.
Sloth are Us.. besides My Lps aren't worth the candle TBH.
Then there is the transition from listening to the Music to listening to the Sounds aspect to consider ;)

[Beobloke]

I have recently been using my old turntable more and more, a Rotel RP-850 fitted with a Goldring 1020 cartridge both purchased in the late 80's and was shocked to see a replacement stylus would cost me £155, the complete cartridge only cost £49.

But to buy the modern version of the cartridge (the 1022GX) would cost you about £300, making the stylus just over half the cost of the cartridge.

Compare this to the Audio Technica AT-95E where the cartridge is £26 and the stylus £19, and the Goldring starts to look like quite good value! :D

[Arkless Electronics]

But to buy the modern version of the cartridge (the 1022GX) would cost you about £300, making the stylus just over half the cost of the cartridge.

Compare this to the Audio Technica AT-95E where the cartridge is £26 and the stylus £19, and the Goldring starts to look like quite good value! :D

Not to me! I well remember it being about £40!!

[Macca]

Back in about '94 I bought a Nagaoka MP30 for £70 brand new. Today will cost you £598.99 from Analogue Seduction.

Putting my 1994 seventy squid into an inflation calculator reveals that is £128.69 in today's quantatively eased cash. Okay so there is the exchange rate to consider too. But even so, something happened to the price of cartridges and it wasn't good.

[Arkless Electronics]

Back in about '94 I bought a Nagaoka MP30 for £70 brand new. Today will cost you £598.99 from Analogue Seduction.

Putting my 1994 seventy squid into an inflation calculator reveals that is £128.69 in today's quantatively eased cash. Okay so there is the exchange rate to consider too. But even so, something happened to the price of cartridges and it wasn't good.

Yes indeedy and thats putting it mildly Martin! I reckon that as digital has become the norm and demand for cartridges has plummeted the manufacturers have put up all the prices about 4-5 times to try and keep the same income level!
To those of us with long memories (OK old bastards :D) paying maybe £500 for something you well recall being a budget to mid range cartridge ain't gonna happen... not me anyway!

I remember even the 1042 Goldring being about £65.. I shudder to think what they are now... and I didn't rate them that highly as a £65 cart!

[prestonchipfryer]

You could buy a really good MM cart in the late 70s/early 80s for £40-ish. Allowing for inflation that's about £130-140. Do the math(s). :)

[Macca]

Back in 1994 finding £70 for that new cart was a big ask. It was almost two day's wages for me. 22 years on £589 is more than I make in a week..

Bollocks, isn't it?

[walpurgis]

Back in about '94 I bought a Nagaoka MP30 for £70 brand new. Today will cost you £598.99 from Analogue Seduction.

That's more than you'd pay for a ZYX R50 Bloom H and I know which I'd rather have.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I don't believe that cleaning a record once with an RCM will double the stylus lifetime. It is just as important in my opinion, possibly more so, to inspect and clean the stylus regularly.

On the subject of stylus hygiene, does anyone have any experience of using one of Audio Technica's battery-powered stylus cleaning gadgets? I bought one - an AT 637 - back in the 80s, I think, when I was using a Linn K9, or Grado ZF1 cartridge. I used to use it fairly freely and no harm ever came from it as far as I know. Also I have to say, I don't know whether any good came from it either, since I would never have known whether I was listening to a worn stylus or not. Anyway, the years rolled by and I got more into hi-fi and bought better stuff on each occasion that replacement was required. I still have the AT 637, but now I look at it with great suspicion and fear, thinking "do I really want to sit my expensive boron cantilever and micro-line stylus on that screaming, vibrating pad?". The answer is "not really", and I haven't used it in years.

Does anybody have any thoughts or feelings (or even experience) about whether these devices are safe and effective, or whether they should be avoided like the plague? [Not completely sure, but I think the idea is that they work on an ultrasound-cleaning principle, rather an by simple mechanical friction]. Regards. Gary.

[walpurgis]

On the subject of stylus hygiene, does anyone have any experience of using one of Audio Technica's battery-powered stylus cleaning gadgets? I bought one - an AT 637 - back in the 80s,

I share your suspicions. I had one of these and thought the action rather vigorous for my expensive styli.

I won't use liquid cleaners on carts with tubular cantilevers, as the cleaner can enter the tube and possibly cause corrosion.

These days, I favour a gentle brushing with a stiff stylus brush and the use of a 'tacky' pad.

[jandl100]

I've used an AT-637 Vibrator for decades - only on really gunged up stylii, mind, where a casual light brush simply doesn't do the biz.
It works well and I've never had any problems with it.

But then I don't go in for mega-dosh carts, maybe I'd be more wary if I did.

[Reffc]

That's more than you'd pay for a ZYX R50 Bloom H and I know which I'd rather have.

I'm with you there Geoff, but there's a dark horse in the stable wrt to carts these days, and with the cart exchange scheme, they make a hell of a lot of sense. I'm referring to the Goldring Elite LOMC at £575 or £398 for an exchange price.

Heard one recently that I was fitting to a customer's TT being serviced and it was a very fine cartridge, certainly better than most MM's in a similar price bracket that I've heard. It and the R-50 Bloom to my mind are about the very best cartridges currently available at that price point.

[Barry]

I share your suspicions. I had one of these and thought the action rather vigorous for my expensive styli.

I won't use liquid cleaners on carts with tubular cantilevers, as the cleaner can enter the tube and possibly cause corrosion.

These days, I favour a gentle brushing with a stiff stylus brush and the use of a 'tacky' pad.

The only experience I have is with a Goldring electronic stylus cleaner. It is not ultrasonic, but vibrates at around 1kHz; so no more aggressive than playing a record. It is only used infrequently as I have an RCM and remove any dust picked up whilst playing a record with a stiff stylus brush. The electronic cleaner is only used if there is persistent, stubborn and tenacious detritus on the stylus. Depending on the stylus and cantilever, I may put one drop of neat IPA on the carbon fibre pad.

Interestingly, I have the opposite feelings about using a 'tacky' pad.

[PaulStewart]

One thing a lot of people are forgetting when it comes to cartridge and stylus prices, is economy of scale. The market for pickups has, despite the so called 'Vinyl resurgence" contracted massively since it's heyday. When parts are made in their 10s of thousands, they cost a lot less per unit then items made in thousands or even hundreds. This PLUS inflation has led to the items increasing in price disproportionately. It's not as some seem to think, about greed.

[Barry]

Good post Paul. The 'vinyl revival' is only a fraction of what it was before the demise, following the introduction of CD.

New record pressing plants may boast figures of 10,000 or 20,000 pressing per year. But that was a typical weekly rejection rate by all record companies in the past.