Proac D18 compared to Harbeth C7esr

[OD1]

I am currently happy with my Proacs, but I am toying with the idea of purchasing a pair of the captioned Harbeth speakers, and ask if anyone has heard these two speakers & could give me an idea of the differences between them ?

My listening room is 25ft long by 9ft wide & the speakers will be firing down the long axis.
I can place the speakers around 18" from the side walls & 2 feet from the back wall (would this be ok for the Harbeths ?).

I listen mainly to reggae (mainly lovers rock), soul , jazz funk, jazz, blues & the odd hip hop.

Due to neighbours, I listen at levels peaking around 90db at 3 metres (seated), and feel that the Proacs are better suited to higher levels, hence my interest in the Harbeths.

My amps are Croft 25R & S7.

In essence, I am seeking more musical enjoyment & inner details at lower volume levels.

[high.spirits]

I had some D118s and found in my room (much shorter than yours) the bass was too much and bloomed. I now use Harbeth HL K6 which use the C7 driver. These are very enjoyable with a balanced sound.

Like always, the proof is in your own room with the various acoustics factors (carpets, soft funishing etc.) Having said that, I have listened to quite a few Harbeth speakers and although the sound signature varies between models, all were good depending on your taste.

Good luck and get a home demo is possible.


I am currently happy with my Proacs, but I am toying with the idea of purchasing a pair of the captioned Harbeth speakers, and ask if anyone has heard these two speakers & could give me an idea of the differences between them ?

My listening room is 25ft long by 9ft wide & the speakers will be firing down the long axis.
I can place the speakers around 18" from the side walls & 2 feet from the back wall (would this be ok for the Harbeths ?).

I listen mainly to reggae (mainly lovers rock), soul , jazz funk, jazz, blues & the odd hip hop.

Due to neighbours, I listen at levels peaking around 90db at 3 metres (seated), and feel that the Proacs are better suited to higher levels, hence my interest in the Harbeths.

My amps are Croft 25R & S7.

In essence, I am seeking more musical enjoyment & inner details at lower volume levels.

[OD1]

Thanks Martin,
Just the sort of feedback I am looking for :)

I will keep the Proacs (cos I like how they sound when neighbours are out), but want something good at lower volumes, and especially good with voices.

Yes I would like a home demo 1st, but not sure how to go about it, and not keen on demos in shops as I feel intimidated to make up my mind on the spot !

Oliver

[high.spirits]

Yes Oliver shop demo's can be like that, plus of course your room will sound different. I loved the Proacs in store, but they just did not work in my room.
Not many Harbeth dealers around so home demo will be difficult. There may be someone on this forum that lives near to you and give you a listen.

I was lucky enough via the forum to listen to several sets of Harbeths before committing to some s/h.
I've seen some s/h C7 recently, so that may be the way to go. I may have the details if you require them, although I think the seller was in the West Country.

cheers Martin

[OD1]

Thanks again Martin,
I hope this will be my last speaker purchase for a long time, so will be buying brand new :)

SWMBO said I could treat myself when I get my pension ;)

Cheers
Oliver

[Simon_LDT]

I'm currently loaning some Harbeth P3ESR's and they are amazing at lower volumes. I'd seriously recommend them for those that can't play music at reference levels often.

[OD1]

I thought about the P3esr, but I would prefer an 8 inch driver.

[DSJR]

My opinion only, based on many hours of listening though - thanks hifi dave....

Of all current Harbeths, the C7-ES3 is the last one to have a bass warmth deliberately added in to the mix - in my opinion, the P3ESR possibly being the other, but it works so well in this one imo. This model has been phenomenally successful for them in far eastern markets though. Later models such as the 30.1 and hugely successful SHL5+ are far tauter in the low bass in UK rooms and don't 'dominate' so much imo (I never felt the 40.1 had this issue although Stereophile pointed it out, now cured in the 40.2 it seems, which I haven't yet heard). My own SHL5's just don't work well here, as I have them set too low and too near a back wall. Now I have replacement grilles I can safely remove the old ones (not recommended by the manufacturer) and try plugging ports and so on...

I know it's going to be difficult unless you're buying new, but try to get a comparison of some Harbeths using your Pro-Acs as reference. A different room will affect the pro-Acs the same, so this should give something of a reference before trying the speakers at home. I sort of lost faith in Pro-Ac in the late 90's as the Response 1SC had a sort of 'whistle' to it I felt (several pairs heard in several rooms, all the same to me) and the larger floor standers were out of control in the bass most of the time, again a deliberate voicing possibly to suit certain markets and their room construction.

Harbeths at their best can be wonderful and seem to be bought by people (couples too!) who've run the gauntlet of 'HiFi' speaker confections which promise much and never deliver, For your long and very thin room though, PLEASE see if you can also hear some current Spendors ('D' Series?), which have a slightly 'cheekier' lively balance. They're not quite as well integrated as Harbeth's finest and the classic range makes Harbeth look cheap, despite recent price increases, but still several rungs above more commercial speaker fare.

[Martyn Miles]

My opinion only, based on many hours of listening though - thanks hifi dave....

Of all current Harbeths, the C7-ES3 is the last one to have a bass warmth deliberately added in to the mix - in my opinion, the P3ESR possibly being the other, but it works so well in this one imo. This model has been phenomenally successful for them in far eastern markets though. Later models such as the 30.1 and hugely successful SHL5+ are far tauter in the low bass in UK rooms and don't 'dominate' so much imo (I never felt the 40.1 had this issue although Stereophile pointed it out, now cured in the 40.2 it seems, which I haven't yet heard). My own SHL5's just don't work well here, as I have them set too low and too near a back wall. Now I have replacement grilles I can safely remove the old ones (not recommended by the manufacturer) and try plugging ports and so on...

I know it's going to be difficult unless you're buying new, but try to get a comparison of some Harbeths using your Pro-Acs as reference. A different room will affect the pro-Acs the same, so this should give something of a reference before trying the speakers at home. I sort of lost faith in Pro-Ac in the late 90's as the Response 1SC had a sort of 'whistle' to it I felt (several pairs heard in several rooms, all the same to me) and the larger floor standers were out of control in the bass most of the time, again a deliberate voicing possibly to suit certain markets and their room construction.

Harbeths at their best can be wonderful and seem to be bought by people (couples too!) who've run the gauntlet of 'HiFi' speaker confections which promise much and never deliver, For your long and very thin room though, PLEASE see if you can also hear some current Spendors ('D' Series?), which have a slightly 'cheekier' lively balance. They're not quite as well integrated as Harbeth's finest and the classic range makes Harbeth look cheap, despite recent price increases, but still several rungs above more commercial speaker fare.

I love the idea of 'bass warmth.'
Gives the idea of blissfully sitting listening to music and a warm feeling of happiness.

All joking aside, Dave, your observations above are very interesting.
Especially your observations re. the SHL 5 speakers.

Martyn.

[OD1]

My opinion only, based on many hours of listening though - thanks hifi dave....

Of all current Harbeths, the C7-ES3 is the last one to have a bass warmth deliberately added in to the mix - in my opinion, the P3ESR possibly being the other, but it works so well in this one imo. This model has been phenomenally successful for them in far eastern markets though. Later models such as the 30.1 and hugely successful SHL5+ are far tauter in the low bass in UK rooms and don't 'dominate' so much imo (I never felt the 40.1 had this issue although Stereophile pointed it out, now cured in the 40.2 it seems, which I haven't yet heard). My own SHL5's just don't work well here, as I have them set too low and too near a back wall. Now I have replacement grilles I can safely remove the old ones (not recommended by the manufacturer) and try plugging ports and so on...

I know it's going to be difficult unless you're buying new, but try to get a comparison of some Harbeths using your Pro-Acs as reference. A different room will affect the pro-Acs the same, so this should give something of a reference before trying the speakers at home. I sort of lost faith in Pro-Ac in the late 90's as the Response 1SC had a sort of 'whistle' to it I felt (several pairs heard in several rooms, all the same to me) and the larger floor standers were out of control in the bass most of the time, again a deliberate voicing possibly to suit certain markets and their room construction.

Harbeths at their best can be wonderful and seem to be bought by people (couples too!) who've run the gauntlet of 'HiFi' speaker confections which promise much and never deliver, For your long and very thin room though, PLEASE see if you can also hear some current Spendors ('D' Series?), which have a slightly 'cheekier' lively balance. They're not quite as well integrated as Harbeth's finest and the classic range makes Harbeth look cheap, despite recent price increases, but still several rungs above more commercial speaker fare.

Thanks Dave,
I am not sure I understand your comment (in bold), are you saying that the C7's bass is subjectively deeper than the HL5 ?
To give you a better idea of the bass that I like, on my Rel Quake subwoofer I 100% prefer it set on "Depth" (warmer ?) as opposed to "Slam" (taughter ?).

My main reason for looking at the Harbeths is getting a more balanced & detailed sound at lower listening levels, especially in the midrange where my Proacs need more volume to spring into life.


Oliver

[hifi_dave]

No, the bass of the SHL5+ is deeper and tighter with more impact.

One of the areas where Harbeths score, is the ability to play at very low levels and still produce a balanced sound. Many speakers need to be played at high volume to sound right. Harbeths are also very room and amp friendly.

[DSJR]

I agree with Dave above. There's deep articulate bass, or a slightly 'tubby' added warmth that may make things sexy, but definition sometimes suffers - get what I mean?

[DSJR]

I love the idea of 'bass warmth.'
Gives the idea of blissfully sitting listening to music and a warm feeling of happiness.

All joking aside, Dave, your observations above are very interesting.
Especially your observations re. the SHL 5 speakers.

Martyn.

The SHL5+ sounded - to me at first at Dave's place - as though it had a carrot shoved up where the sun don't shine, so much tauter and 'tighter' they sounded. Thanks to Dave and experiences with my own pair of previous generation SHL5's (and a lovely walnut pair of HL5's twenty five years ago I had for a few years before the ATC's and marriage took over :eek:), I now realise that the previous model had more than a little 'fullness' about it that I find is even more with the C7ES3 in direct comparison - personally of course. My full realisation of how far forward the 5+ has come was when Dave connected a Krell Vanguard to them - previous sessions with a Quad 909 replacement (I forget the current name - QSP?) and matching Elite (I think) preamp being underwhelming, which surprised me greatly (no time to swap preamps around at the time). The Vanguard brought these damned things to life in a way I'd not previously heard - and it's by no means a measured 'sensitivity thing' either, as the 5+ is a fairly efficient and technically easy model to drive.

How I'm left personally is that my ten year old 5's are unusable in my listening room due to thunderous low bass and rolled off highs, and this with the Krell KSA50S too, but basically they show considerable refinements over the Spendor BC2's currently in situ (so they bloody should after forty years - or thirty in the case of the 5's). The 5+ should be very much better in this room one day - I'm working on an update, but timescale is unkown..

Hope this helps. believe me, where it really matters, the Pro-Acs are almost certainly in a cruder and rougher plane of existence, but for younger ears wanting some bass and treble 'excitement,' they may well be ideal. Listening to live music of whatever genre though, should show the tweeter 'splatter' and boom for what it is - in my opinion obviously.

[OD1]

No, the bass of the SHL5+ is deeper and tighter with more impact.

One of the areas where Harbeths score, is the ability to play at very low levels and still produce a balanced sound. Many speakers need to be played at high volume to sound right. Harbeths are also very room and amp friendly.

Thanks Dave,
I really like the idea of listening to my system in all its glory, without worrying about my neighbours.
Would the C7's work ok in my narrow room 25x9 feet ?

[OD1]

I agree with Dave above. There's deep articulate bass, or a slightly 'tubby' added warmth that may make things sexy, but definition sometimes suffers - get what I mean?

I definitely like things "Sexy" :eyebrows:

[DSJR]

Then you'll love the C7 ES3's :D

[southall-1998]

Then you'll love the C7 ES3's :D

Dave, have you compared the older C7 ES2 to the C7 ES3? Do both have a similar treble?

S.

[hifi_dave]

Thanks Dave,
I really like the idea of listening to my system in all its glory, without worrying about my neighbours.
Would the C7's work ok in my narrow room 25x9 feet ?

The C7ES3 and the SHL5+ will work in that room but the larger model might look a bit 'big' depending on taste.

I have Harbeth customers with tiny square rooms, using the SHL5+ with great results.

[Ian7633]

I've had a pair of mk1 C7s for the last 25 years and used them in large and small rooms with lots of different equipment and they have never disappointed. Always with lovely warm, controlled bass with lively but sweet mid and treble.
If you ever get over this way you are very welcome to have a listen to them.

[OD1]

Thanks to you all :)
I have heard older Harbeths before (old HL5's iirc) but in a larger more square room than mine, and I recall being impressed by the mid range, so assuming the new Radial driver is as good in the mids as the old, then I will be happy.

Based on all your advice, I think I will take a punt on the C7's (would definitely want to listen to them at home over a period of time).

HiFi Dave, is it best to contact you via PM to take this further ?

One last thing, has anyone tried Harbeths on HIFI Racks stands, my Missus likes the look of them & they would match my 5 tier stand (all in Cherry) ?

Oliver

[hifi_dave]

Please e-mail - it's easier.

Yes, the Hi-Fi Racks work well with Harbeth.

[DSJR]

Dave, have you compared the older C7 ES2 to the C7 ES3? Do both have a similar treble?

S.

I think that practically all Harbeths have a similar refined treble and I'm going back to the HL III from getting on for 40 years ago, as well as the first Compact model from nearly thirty years ago. They've NEVER had a rough or resonant peaky treble quality and even the M30 series models, based as they are (sort of) on the LS5/9, lack the slightly spiky qualities of the latter in Rogers trim (I haven't yet heard the current Graham re-vamp). The bass of the Compact series has changed over the years in my experience but I would say that stand choice is important for these in particular - it certainly was in the days of the original Compact 7 and this is where Something Solid came into it with their space-frame style of stand, but that's another story for another day. I have to ask if a lamp table style of stand needs to cost £450 the pair though...

One thing I think hifi dave will agree with me on. The stands MUST be high enough to place the ear at tweeter level, which means 18 to 20" stands for the 30.1 and 18" or more for the C7's and I think around 16" for all the HL models. A longer room won't be such an issue for this, but if you sit 3m or less from them, I'd personally suggest it would be...

[OD1]

Dave,
Email sent.

[hifi_dave]

Replied..:thumbsup:

[OD1]

I took the plunge and purchased a pair of Harbeth C7esr's (nuff respect to HiFi Dave :) ) but have builders in, so not been able to listen properly :(

I will share my findings once all the junk has been cleared from my listening room, and most importantly when the dust sheets have been removed from my new toys :eyebrows:

[hifi_dave]

That builder's dust gets everywhere, so best err on the side of caution before unwrapping your Hi-Fi.

Hope you enjoy the Harbeths.