How does 70/80's Hi-Fi compare to modern sound wise

[Paul-H]

Hi all

Not wishing to start any sort of war here but was wondering, as I have not seen or read anything Hi-Fi related for more than 30 years, how does modern equipment compare to the better equipment from the 80's.

Has sound reproduction improved or does the older gear still hold its own.

Been looking to update my 30 odd year old system but don't know if modern equipment has improved on the audio quality I already get.

Current items I have had since the mid 80's consist of a Pioneer LP-112D turntable with Ortofon MM cartridge. Pioneer A-70 Amp, With Tannoy Murcury M2 Speakers, it all sound good when new and to me still sounds good today, but I am now in a position to update things but not wishing to end up dropping a couple of grand only to find I have not got anything better than I already have, was wondering if anything has really improved over the last 30 years, or did sound quality get as good as it could be back in the 70/80's.

Thanks for any feedback on this

Paul

[Arkless Electronics]

I will have to be blunt here really... it's not so much a case of equipment improving. more the case that the equipment you already have is entry level budget gear!

[struth]

Just because its budget doesn,t mean its not good. Mine would be classed as budget, but it will give plenty higher end gear a very good run.

[Arkless Electronics]

I disagree. Equipment has not really come on that much in the last 30 years but as the OP is considering spending £2K on new gear (secondhand would be MUCH better at that level;)) we are talking a completely different league in performance.
Mechanical watches have probably come on even less in the last 30 years but in comparing a 30 year old Timex to a new Rolex it's not the 30 years difference that counts! (and yes before some wag tries to be clever they both tell the time adequately well so it's probably not the best comparison:D)

[Audio Al]

Most of my HiFi is old and I love it
Built in a time when quality counted not cost , Built by engineers not accountants ;)

[struth]

I disagree. Equipment has not really come on that much in the last 30 years but as the OP is considering spending £2K on new gear (secondhand would be MUCH better at that level;)) we are talking a completely different league in performance.
Mechanical watches have probably come on even less in the last 30 years but in comparing a 30 year old Timex to a new Rolex it's not the 30 years difference that counts! (and yes before some wag tries to be clever they both tell the time adequately well so it's probably not the best comparison:D)

Without hearing his system no one really knows Jez. Just because it has a high pricetag dont make it better except.......;)

Improvements Paul, can be made, but sense says what do you use most, and in what way do you wish it better?
I would probably get a better deck and cart, plus an external phono stage. You could get those new or second hand for less than half your budget... See how it sounds and then i would probably change speakers to something more revealing, and bigger if you have room. The m2's struggle a bit with bass ... Ive had a pair..fine for a bedroom but could be bettered for not a lot second hand..
Watch the private sales here, and youll pick up good kit at best prices

[pgarrish]

Splashing £2k on a pair of used speakers from any era would probably make an incredible transformation.

Personally I prefer older speakers as they tend to have bigger drivers with a more relaxed presentation, but I do think it's more a case of style/voice than 'better'.

[Arkless Electronics]

Ideally we need to know what the OP requires in terms of must it all be new or recent? Must it be of certain styling for WAF etc?...

I'd go for something like Thorens TD150/160/160 Super or Heybrook TT2 or Manticore Mantra with Rega arm and something like AT ATF7 or AT33 cart, obviously I'm going to recommend my own product next... Arkless 640P phono stage (Dynavector P75 is roughly its equal but about £250 (inc donor unit) for the Arkless and £700 for the P75;)), a passive "pre amp", Quad 606 or similar feeding Spendor SP1's or something similar from Harbeth etc. All second hand apart from the phono stage and cartridge and much of it as old or older than the OP's current kit! No budget for cables etc as anything will do fine.

[petrat]

Hi Paul.

I suggest you 'refurbish' what you have. A starting point might be to get a new belt for the turntable and oil the bearing, together with a new stylus for the cartridge ... relatively cheap, but will sharpen things up considerably ime. I'd also tighten up the mounting screws/bolts on the main loudspeaker drivers. Finally, if you can find a local repair bod, get the amplifier serviced ... usually needs no more than replacing the big capacitors, which will give it a bit more ooomph. Do all that, and you'll be good for another 30 years :D

So, to answer your question .... no, not much has changed at the budget end of hifi. The 'modern' sound is maybe more detailed and 'etched', but that can get a bit wearing when overdone. Your stuff is still very decent in comparison.

[Paul-H]

Thanks for the replies

Just started servicing the turntable, cleaned, oiled and new belt fitted, will now look into new Cartridge options, my current amp supports both MM & MC Cartridges so any recommendations, Its got an old MM Ortofon VM5 10E on it at the moment, how would a Ortofon 2M Red or Blue fair, anything else I could have a look for.

Thanks again

Paul

[Arkless Electronics]

Personally... I would get shot of the whole front end before doing anything else. It just isn't up to the job IMO. Even if it was brand new!

[spendorman]

Sorry, but I disagree, Pl-12D can sound fine. A good budget deck.

[Arkless Electronics]

Sorry, but I disagree, Pl-12D can sound fine. A good budget deck.

It's a 112D not the earlier 12D. Yes a decent entry level budget deck in its day but better gear upstream of it is going to show it up mercilessly. I couldn't live with that as a source when feeding good amplification and speakers of the standard of the SP1 I mentioned earlier..... I'd take mp3 over that any day!

[spendorman]

It's a 112D not the earlier 12D. Yes a decent entry level budget deck in its day but better gear upstream of it is going to show it up mercilessly. I couldn't live with that as a source when feeding good amplification and speakers of the standard of the SP1 I mentioned earlier..... I'd take mp3 over that any day!

As sorry, the LP at the beginning confused me! Yes the PL-112D was cheapened a bit, never owned one. I do have a PL12D and a PL512, which is in my view even better mainly due to a slightly lower rumble figure to the PL-12D. I also have Thorens TD124 II / Ortofon RS212, Techincs SL-110 / Ariston arm, and many others decks, yes, not in use these days, mainly because of digital stuff. The TD124 can do 78 RPM, must get round to playing some of my large collection of them. Something for the future.

[Arkless Electronics]

As sorry, the LP at the beginning confused me! Yes the PL-112D was cheapened a bit, never owned one. I do have a PL12D and a PL512, which is in my view even better mainly due to a slightly lower rumble figure to the PL-12D. I also have Thorens TD124 II / Ortofon RS212, Techincs SL-110 / Ariston arm, and many others decks, yes, not in use these days, mainly because of digital stuff. The TD124 can do 78 RPM, must get round to playing some of my large collection of them. Something for the future.

TD124 is very nice! Love the instant start....

Do you have BC2's in your Spendor collection? I have a pair myself and was just wondering how you rate them... we can compare notes:eyebrows:

[spendorman]

TD124 is very nice! Love the instant start....

Do you have BC2's in your Spendor collection? I have a pair myself and was just wondering how you rate them... we can compare notes:eyebrows:

Yes, a pair of early BC2's, a single spare later BC2, and a pair of Prelude bass units, which I believe are the same as BC2 bass units. Not had the BC2's on for about 10 years! That's not to say that they are bad, bass is better than from BC1, but BC1 beats it on midrange. And to my ears, I prefer (slightly) the BBC Rogers LS3/6's, which are in use at present.

[Barry]

TD124 is very nice! Love the instant start....



All decent turntables should have a clutch as well as a gear box. ;)

[spendorman]

All decent turntables should have a clutch as well as a gear box. ;)

What about Variomatic / CVT, or is that the Lenco drive!

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, a pair of early BC2's, a single spare later BC2, and a pair of Prelude bass units, which I believe are the same as BC2 bass units. Not had the BC2's on for about 10 years! That's not to say that they are bad, bass is better than from BC1, but BC1 beats it on midrange. And to my ears, I prefer (slightly) the BBC Rogers LS3/6's, which are in use at present.

Yep that's about my view on them as well. I really rate the SP1 and two friends used them for years so I used to hear them regularly... I'll probably buy some one day if they don't go through the roof...

[walpurgis]

All decent turntables should have a clutch as well as a gear box. ;)

And brakes!

The Lenco drive has similarities to CVT transmission.

[spendorman]

And brakes!

The Lenco drive has similarities to CVT transmission.


So it goes as fast backwards as forwards!

https://youtu.be/zoh8i0jfpTo

[Barry]

I wonder if anyone has designed a belt-drive turntable based on the 'Variomatic' drive of the DAF?

[walpurgis]

So it goes as fast backwards as forwards!

https://youtu.be/zoh8i0jfpTo

In theory, but the idler would not 'bite' against the tapered motor spindle to generate traction in reverse.

[walpurgis]

I wonder if anyone has designed a belt-drive turntable based on the 'Variomatic' drive of the DAF?

Unlikely. CVT/Variomatic drives generate a fair bit of friction and friction equates to noise.

[spendorman]

Unlikely. CVT/Variomatic drives generate a fair bit of friction and friction equates to noise.

Good point, In the mid 70's I did some work on the design of electric vehicles. First job was on DC controllers for the traction motors, next job was a problem with the gearbox, just a single reduction box, but there was an issue with friction. I did some tests using molybdenum disulphide additive to the oil, got a significant reduction in friction.

Using this additive on turntables might give an advantage.

[Arkless Electronics]

Good point, In the mid 70's I did some work on the design of electric vehicles. First job was on DC controllers for the traction motors, next job was a problem with the gearbox, just a single reduction box, but there was an issue with friction. I did some tests using molybdenum disulphide additive to the oil, got a significant reduction in friction.

Using this additive on turntables might give an advantage.

Interesting... and I didn't know you were an engineer! :) I bet you could write a book about SCR's...

I had some oil many years ago which was sold for use on guns and came in a small bottle of maybe 5cc. It was PTFE loaded...I wonder if such a thing would work well on TT's :scratch:

[walpurgis]

I had some oil many years ago which was sold for use on guns and came in a small bottle of maybe 5cc. It was PTFE loaded...I wonder if such a thing would work well on TT's :scratch:

I know the stuff you mean. Think I may still have some in the workshop. TriFlon I think it was. I bought it from Sussex Armoury to service air rifles.

[spendorman]

Interesting... and I didn't know you were an engineer! :) I bet you could write a book about SCR's...

I had some oil many years ago which was sold for use on guns and came in a small bottle of maybe 5cc. It was PTFE loaded...I wonder if such a thing would work well on TT's :scratch:

Funny that you should mention SCR's, went on a course specifically on them and DC controllers, was with a company called Sevcon. Actually, our controllers used transistors to control the output current, 2 x three 50 amp devices in parallel. Transistors were used instead of SCR's because: 1/ lower forward voltage drop. 2/ the problem of turning the SCR off.

I was forgetting the PTFE loaded additive, I used, Slick 50:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Slick-50-Engine-Treatment-Oil-Additive-Petrol-Diesel-Extends-Engine-Life-500ml-/141986024179 in a very clapped out car engine, engine ran smoothly for many more years after adding the PTFE. In fact was still running fine when car went to breakers yard.

[Paul-H]

So going back on topic :sofa:

Forgetting what my current equipment is classed as Entry, Mid, Hi etc as I am trying to find out which is the better valid update to what I have option, either by better modern or try to find better vintage.

Has the sound from Modern Audio Equipment improved over the equivalent Vintage and by Vintage I am referring to equipment available and sold during the 70's & 80's or did sound reproduction reach its peak during that time and modern equipment like everything else modern just became smaller and more feature laden, but did not do anything to the actual sound quality

Yes I know sound quality is subjective and obviously the hearing of people who remembered hows things sounded in the 70's & 80's has obviously deteriorated over the last 30 to 40 years but some still have that equipment working today so should be able to give an accurate assessment that is not just anecdotal

Thanks again for any input into this

Paul

[struth]

Mostly its better but there are some stuff that isnt. A lot of 70s stuff is viewed with rose tinted specks. Usually best to change 1 thing at a time so you can see whats changing what sound wise. Trick is to try and listen to some folks systems at bake off s etc. Plenty folk here let folk come for a listen. Once you hear what you like then try to emulate it with your own selections, or it can become costly. Picking gear bought in forums is a good way as its a bit cheaper than ebay and guarenteed to work well. If you dont like it it can be sold on without much more cost than the postage, so doesnt break bank.

[Arkless Electronics]

I know the stuff you mean. Think I may still have some in the workshop. TriFlon I think it was. I bought it from Sussex Armoury to service air rifles.

Yep that's what I had this for...

[Arkless Electronics]

So going back on topic :sofa:

Forgetting what my current equipment is classed as Entry, Mid, Hi etc as I am trying to find out which is the better valid update to what I have option, either by better modern or try to find better vintage.

Has the sound from Modern Audio Equipment improved over the equivalent Vintage and by Vintage I am referring to equipment available and sold during the 70's & 80's or did sound reproduction reach its peak during that time and modern equipment like everything else modern just became smaller and more feature laden, but did not do anything to the actual sound quality

Yes I know sound quality is subjective and obviously the hearing of people who remembered hows things sounded in the 70's & 80's has obviously deteriorated over the last 30 to 40 years but some still have that equipment working today so should be able to give an accurate assessment that is not just anecdotal

Thanks again for any input into this

Paul

I'm afraid I just don't see the relevance of this.... It's infinitely more important how much it cost at the time, allowing for inflation, than what era it's from. ie whether it's low, mid or high end....
I'll not bother making an analysis of precisely where things have improved since the 1980's but in general there has not been that much improvement. The important bit is do you want to buy a turntable from say 1983 for £200 or a modern new one of virtually identical performance for say £1200 due to it being brand spanking new...

[Macca]

Some things have changed but not by much.

Amplifiers are the same.

Turntables are the same. Some may argue modern carts are a bit better, most won't.

Digital is still digital - you get more for your money nowdays but IMO some of the old high end CD players are still the best for SQ.

Loudspeakers - quite a lot of change, lots more small, affordable active loudspeakers around now. Some drive unit tech has advanced, although many still prefer the sound of paper drivers. Good modern speakers are cleaner and clearer than the vintage speakers, but are perhaps less easy to listen to as a result, so not sure if that is an improvement. Cheap Chinese manufacture means you maybe get a bit more for less than you did back in the day.

All a bit of a generalisation I know but that has been my experience. Good kit is still good kit no matter when it was made, personal taste is still the decider as to what 'works' and what doesn't.

[Arkless Electronics]

Some things have changed but not by much.

Amplifiers are the same.

Turntables are the same. Some may argue modern carts are a bit better, most won't.

Digital is still digital - you get more for your money nowdays but IMO some of the old high end CD players are still the best for SQ.

Loudspeakers - quite a lot of change, lots more small, affordable active loudspeakers around now. Some drive unit tech has advanced, although many still prefer the sound of paper drivers. Good modern speakers are cleaner and clearer than the vintage speakers, but are perhaps less easy to listen to as a result, so not sure if that is an improvement. Cheap Chinese manufacture means you maybe get a bit more for less than you did back in the day.

All a bit of a generalisation I know but that has been my experience. Good kit is still good kit no matter when it was made, personal taste is still the decider as to what 'works' and what doesn't.

There has been big advances in amplifiers but you wouldn't always know it... Specifically much better op amps and output devices. The circuit design still counts for much more than the parts used though.
I think cartridges is where things have most gone downhill... in as much as due to digital, vinyl is much more of a niche product than it once was and therefore there is a far narrower range of cartridges available and they are more expensive in real terms...

[Macca]

[QUOTE=Arkless Electronics;782060]There has been big advances in amplifiers but you wouldn't always know it... QUOTE]

I'd say you get more amp for your money than you used to - but you have a listen to something like a Radford STA 25 from the Sixties and it is still as good if not better than the modern stuff. I suppose pure valve amps would not benefit from the new tech, though.

[spendorman]

[QUOTE=Arkless Electronics;782060]There has been big advances in amplifiers but you wouldn't always know it... QUOTE]

I'd say you get more amp for your money than you used to - but you have a listen to something like a Radford STA 25 from the Sixties and it is still as good if not better than the modern stuff. I suppose pure valve amps would not benefit from the new tech, though.

This is what I'm thinking, I have the above mentioned amp, Radford STA25 mk III, it is good, extremely good, but I also have this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3-to-18V-TDA7266-Power-Amplifier-Module-Double-Channel-5-15W-CF-/272159153887
It's running into my BBC Rogers LS3/6's at the moment. I'm not going to say that it's better than the Radford, but it's bloomin good. Any better value than that?

Also, Class D amp are getting more popular, I have a TPA3116 that cost less than £10, very respectably in sound quality that is too.

[Arkless Electronics]

[QUOTE=Arkless Electronics;782060]There has been big advances in amplifiers but you wouldn't always know it... QUOTE]

I'd say you get more amp for your money than you used to - but you have a listen to something like a Radford STA 25 from the Sixties and it is still as good if not better than the modern stuff. I suppose pure valve amps would not benefit from the new tech, though.

It depends on what you class as "pure valve". Modern SS advances have produced huge improvements in what is possible from a valve amp.. and the SS doesn't always have to be in the signal path.
Op amps have come on VASTLY since even 1980... In fact I wouldn't have used op amps back then as they weren't good enough (it didn't stop many manufacturers though!). Of course discrete circuitry could have been used to the same effect but at usually greater cost.
Output transistors have come on greatly since 1980 in terms of linearity and speed and mosfets are now available of course.

I would say one of the greatest downsides to modern gear is something that effects many walks of life and not just hi fi. Excessive expectations of VFM on the part of customers is what I'm talking about. People have come to expect things, and especially electronic equipment, to get cheaper in real terms every year and this has lead to rampant cheapening and cost cutting! People should not expect this outside of intensively mass produced commoditised products IMHO.

[Arkless Electronics]

I smell a rat.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3-to-18V-TDA7266-Power-Amplifier-Module-Double-Channel-5-15W-CF-/272159153887

http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/tda7266/amp-audio-7w-ster-multiwatt15/dp/1842508

[spendorman]

I smell a rat.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3-to-18V-TDA7266-Power-Amplifier-Module-Double-Channel-5-15W-CF-/272159153887

http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/tda7266/amp-audio-7w-ster-multiwatt15/dp/1842508

You mean it's a fake chip?

[Arkless Electronics]

You mean it's a fake chip?

Possibly.... They would have to be buying them in 10,000+ a time quantities for the price of this module to at least cover the cost of the parts!

[spendorman]

Well,I have bought several of these, all work fine.

Also, price includes postage!

[Macca]

Back to the OP I think the equipment could be bettered by buying either new or vintage items. The deck is the cost cut version of the 12D, which was a budget deck so that could be improved on. The amp I don't know. The speakers can be improved on and a speaker upgrade is almost always the biggest improvement so I'd be tempted to start there. Go bigger if possible. Swapping for another small standmount, new or old, might just be a change rather than a 'wow listen to that!' improvement.

So forget the age factor, just aim for better, from any era.

[Martyn Miles]

[QUOTE=Macca;782065]

This is what I'm thinking, I have the above mentioned amp, Radford STA25 mk III, it is good, extremely good, but I also have this:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-3-to-18V-TDA7266-Power-Amplifier-Module-Double-Channel-5-15W-CF-/272159153887
It's running into my BBC Rogers LS3/6's at the moment. I'm not going to say that it's better than the Radford, but it's bloomin good. Any better value than that?

Also, Class D amp are getting more popular, I have a TPA3116 that cost less than £10, very respectably in sound quality that is too.

Now that little amp. looks interesting.

It's a long time since I put together an amplifier, etc. in a box.
I had hair and played a bass guitar at the time!

Martyn.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'd be replacing the TT, arm and cartridge first... garbage in garbage out.

[topoxforddoc]

Paul,

You mention a couple of grand in your opening post. Was that a throwaway remark or a realistic budget? Let us know what budget you have, the size of your room and any other requirements (e.g. floorstanding or bookshelf speakers, WAF factor etc), We can then make some sensible comments

Charlie

[MrRadish]

Hi all

Not wishing to start any sort of war here but was wondering, as I have not seen or read anything Hi-Fi related for more than 30 years, how does modern equipment compare to the better equipment from the 80's.

Has sound reproduction improved or does the older gear still hold its own.

My own experience comparing 80s/90s hi-fi with more modern stuff is that the modern kit is cleaner, clearer, more precise, more extended at the frequency extremes, more holographic, more impressive and presumably more accurate. The downside of all that is that it's more demanding of your source, fussier in every way and generally works best with a smaller (very well recorded and mastered) selection of my music. The older gear by contrast is warmer, more cuddly, easier to listen to, more enjoyable over a broader spread of music and keeps me listening for a lot longer. That goes for kit that's both straight off ebay (very woolly) and re-capped professionally.

Of course I'm not comparing like with like as the newer kit I've owned has generally been more expensive than the older kit (but not always), so some of those comments will be affected by price. I do feel however that something has been lost in the modern kit, given that it's both newer and more expensive and yet I prefer listening to the older kit.

The other thing I've found is that newer cartridges sound better with newer phono stages and older carts sound better with older phono stages; albeit based on a massive sample of two (Ortofon 2M Red and Denon 110). :)

My only 70s/early 80s kit is an old Marantz 2226B receiver, which is very similar to the 80s/90s kit in terms of my comments above, only slightly more so and more attractive (opinion may vary)... I must get mine fixed.

[Macca]

My own experience comparing 80s/90s hi-fi with more modern stuff is that the modern kit is cleaner, clearer, more precise, more extended at the frequency extremes, more holographic, more impressive and presumably more accurate. The downside of all that is that it's more demanding of your source, fussier in every way and generally works best with a smaller (very well recorded and mastered) selection of my music. The older gear by contrast is warmer, more cuddly, easier to listen to, more enjoyable over a broader spread of music and keeps me listening for a lot longer. That goes for kit that's both straight off ebay (very woolly) and re-capped professionally.

.

That's my experience too. My ideal is a blend of the two. A system that is enjoyable with all types of music and has enough of the good properties of the modern kit so you don't feel wanting in that area.

[MrRadish]

That's my experience too. My ideal is a blend of the two. A system that is enjoyable with all types of music and has enough of the good properties of the modern kit so you don't feel wanting in that area.

Yep, I must confess to really liking my Bluesound Node 2. It's not just really convenient, it's also a damn good transport. I mostly prefer vintage multibit DACs but the Exposure 2010S2 DAC is also getting a lot of play time in my system right now, although it needs a source as good as the Node or better to sound decent.

[YNWaN]

Isn't the Tannoy Mercury M2 one of Tannoy's budget designs from the late 90's rather than the 70/80s?


100% Analogue

[Paul-H]

Re the .Tannoys, its a Typo in the first post, They are M20 not M2, definitely mid 80's though as my system was bought just before I bought my first house and that was in 1986 and the last time I could afford anything Hi-Fi related.

The A-70 Amp cost £200 which was a weeks wage back then (Well for me it was) Not convinced it was an entry level product, even then. :rolleyes: Although by then it was an end of line product being sold at a discount, so don't know what the true value was at the time but I suspect around £300.

The Tannoys IIRC were in the region of £150.

The Turntable was second hand when I got it and was replacement for an even older PL-12 which had a very bad rumble issue.

At the moment I am looking at a couple of Thorens 160's, if the prices don't go silly, just watched a 160 super go for over £700 on fleabay.

Not too keen on the look of modern Turntables as they all look like they come out of the same Chinese factory even though they probably don't, I prefer the traditional Thorens 160 look, I could go for a Linn LP12 but don't have enough Vinyl to Justify that to SWMBO and it would take all of my £2k budget and a bit more just to by the middle model they sell new. I could go for the Pro-Ject Classic but I am not convinced they are worth the asking price. Most of my Music is now in Digital format and streamed to the Amp via a wireless connection and as said my Vinyl collection is now quit small as most went missing during a couple of house moves, although what I have still got is in a pristine condition and well worth playing.

The Speakers I suspect are going to be the best option for update but size wise they cant be much bigger than the Tannoys but can be stand mounted getting them up off the floor.

Budget is still around £2k if I can but it would be best if it covered everything rather than just one. Unless that one item would give a noticeable improvement.

Thanks again for the advice given so far.

Paul

[Macca]

Deck: A Technics SL1200 or sL1210 would improve on your Pioneer deck for around £350 used. Not the last word but perfectly adequate for playing a small vinyl collection, easy to set up, durable and well built.

Amps: A passive pre-amp with a compatible power amp would be a step up on an old, budget integrated (I was also amp shopping in 1986 and the bottom of the line Rotel was £140 back then). Amps, like most electronic goods, have got cheaper in real terms over the last 30 years so although £200 then is £500 now, it's still a budget amp. I think you would really notice the improvement with this change.

Speakers: if you can't go bigger keep what you have for now as they are pretty good for the money, and see how you feel after upgrading the source and amps. Speakers vary so widely and there are a thousand small-ish standmounts to choose from, not easy to give a blanket recommendation there.

[Arkless Electronics]

Re the .Tannoys, its a Typo in the first post, They are M20 not M2, definitely mid 80's though as my system was bought just before I bought my first house and that was in 1986 and the last time I could afford anything Hi-Fi related.

The A-70 Amp cost £200 which was a weeks wage back then (Well for me it was) Not convinced it was an entry level product, even then. :rolleyes:

The Tannoys IIRC were in the region of £150.

The Turntable was second hand when I got it and was replacement for an even older PL-12 which had a very bad rumble issue.

At the moment I am looking at a couple of Thorens 160's, if the prices don't go silly, just watched a 160 super go for over £700 on fleabay.

Not too keen on the look of modern Turntables as they all look like they come out of the same Chinese factory even though they probably don't, I prefer the traditional Thorens 160 look, I could go for a Linn LP12 but don't have enough Vinyl to Justify that to SWMBO and it would take all of my £2k budget and a bit more just to by the middle model they sell new. I could go for the Pro-Ject Classic but I am not convinced they are worth the asking price. Most of my Music is now in Digital format and streamed to the Amp via a wireless connection and as said my Vinyl collection is now quit small as most went missing during a couple of house moves, although what I have still got is in a pristine condition and well worth playing.

The Speakers I suspect are going to be the best option for update but size wise they cant be much bigger than the Tannoys but can be stand mounted getting them up off the floor.

Budget is still around £2k if I can but it would be best if it covered everything rather than just one. Unless that one item would give a noticeable improvement.

Thanks again for the advice given so far.

Paul

The Thorens TD160 Super is a very nice deck (personally Id take one over a Technics 1200) but not at £700:eek:
Fleabay does get daft,,,, several Cambridge 640P's going at £120!!! You can buy a new one (651p is identical) for £121!

[montesquieu]

Mechanical watches have probably come on even less in the last 30 years but in comparing a 30 year old Timex to a new Rolex it's not the 30 years difference that counts! (and yes before some wag tries to be clever they both tell the time adequately well so it's probably not the best comparison:D)

Disappointed I thought you were a measurist Jez ...:ner:

To the OP: I would suggest not rushing into things, but I also think £2k well spent would make a huge improvement. But you need to make sure it's the kind of improvement your ears will thank you for.

Most of us - myself anyway - hit middle age and discovered that the very kit we dreamed about but couldn't afford - the Quad ESLs, the big valve amps, the Tannoy dual concentrics, the Garrard TTs and so on - were suddenly accessible. Yes you can buy modern, and on the whole entry level/budget kit is somewhat more capable these days than it was back in the day, and pretty decent VFM, but for me the fun has always been about looking backwards.

I bought a Linn LP12 with an early credit card not long after my first graduate job around 1982, but it was partnered budget with kit not dissimilar to what you have, and all told it sounded decent enough to my ears for many years.

What with mortgages, marriages, kids and divorces, it was only much much later that I could afford to direct money towards hifi. If you are ready to spend now, you should have a good listen before splurging. I would also go second-hand, you get far far more for your dosh.

[helma]

I don't know the Pioneer A-70 personally, but from the looks of it, I wouldn't really call it a budget integrated. At over 12kg fairly heavy too. More like middle of the line, or high end for average consumer :) I found a nude shot: http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/193060-rare_pioneer_a70_120_wattchannel_integrated_amplif ier.jpg - all this doesn't of course tell anything about how it sounds, but to me it seems like a healthy amp that was built to a price. This is what they did for 3 times the money: http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/amp/a-200(1).JPG

There was a thing with Japanese integrateds though, a lot of it seemed focused on maximum power rating for 8 ohms and how many knobs you can fit on the front panel - very impressive looking if you're into that, but it also often means the signal is passing through a dozen little switches, all prone to oxidation, so a good cleaning is probably in order. Of course during the same time they also came up with the "main direct" switch, which is another switch to let you bypass all those other switches :) Another problem with early 80s stuff is op-amps really made their way into gear and back then op-amps didn't necessarily sound all that great, or perhaps they were used in a way more suited to cost cutting than better sound. And the coming of CD... suddenly everything had to be "digital" and the whole world going crazy with 80s music and just 80s in general and being 'in the future' which had nothing to do with how instruments really sound or how anything in this world really is (don't get me wrong, I love the 80s :P ), somethings got a bit "odd"... and that really reflects in many early 80s products, but it looks like your amp probably wasn't really that much part of "that movement" ... if it was, it probably would have a digital volume setting with rubber touch buttons... how anyone ever thought something like adjusting the listening volume would be more awesome by hacking away at some stupid button instead of just simply turning a knob beats me... Ok I'll stop here before I get into microwave ovens and how you can cook all your food in them (given you find a way to figure out how to turn the thing on) :)

Kai

[Firebottle]

:lolsign: Good post Kai.

[Paul-H]

Nice to see an image of the insides of the Unicorn or Pioneer A series amps, the A-200.

Even when they were available I was never able to find one in stock in the UK and by the time I gave up looking all the rest had gone as well, which was why I ended up with the A-70 as I would have preferred the A-90 or above.

I suspect I will be sticking with the Amp for the time being as to my ears it still sounds good. Will be updating the Turntable and Speakers first as those two know could be better, and re think the Amp once those are in place.

I was going to get a Linn LP12 but to be honest although I could afford one (Just) My small 70s/80s record collection would not do it justice so will probably just keep an eye out for a well sorted Thorens TD-160 Mk1 or Super as both would be a big jump on the Pioneer PL-112D

Speakers need to be about the size of the Mercuries but can be stand or shelf standing, any suggestions from a modern range.

Thanks again for all the help with this

Paul

[Paul-H]

Managed to pick up a nice clean TD-160 Mk1 the other day, 300 mile round trip to save it being damaged in the post.

So the journey begins.