View Full Version : Shakespeare, poetry and other such bobbins...
{Discussion moved from the Ken Kessler thread in Blank Canvas}
You could mention that to Wilko Johnson - he is a voracious literary scholar and routinely drops in quotations from Shakespeare and Milton into his conversations. When I asked him what he might do if he ever got better from his "terminal cancer", he said that he might go back to academe and read Anglos-Saxon Poetry :)
Interesting. I read Anglo-Saxon poetry, along with Gawain & the Green Knight, Piers Plowman and Chaucer when at university first time around (an alarming 40+ years ago). These days, at university second time around, I am mostly reading Coleridge and Wordsworth. But despite what amounts to a life-long addiction to literature, I'm not sure you can say it has a point, in the way that, say, a car manual or a dictionary has a point.
If you're not interested in reading poetry or appreciate a nice turn of phrase, then Shakespeare is not for you. But then neither is Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Susan Vega, .....
Or for that matter, The King James Bible or The Book of Common Prayer.
But don't worry, Leo Tolstoy hated Shakespeare!
I first encountered Shakespeare (Richard II) at school, aged 14 or so, when we read it aloud round the class. I was blown away by it, as I was a year or so later when we read Dylan Thomas and the WWI poets. As A E Housman said: 'I can no more define what constitutes great poetry than a terrier can define a rat, but it has the same effect on me as a rat does on a terrier; my ears prick up and the hairs on the back of my neck rise up'.
Arkless Electronics
16-08-2016, 13:08
I have of late but, wherefore I no not, lost all of my mirth and forgone all custom of exercise....:ner:
I have of late but, wherefore I no no, lost all of my mirth and forgone all custom of exercise....:ner:
Brilliant! Man delights not me; no, nor woman neither.
I first encountered Shakespeare (Richard II) at school, aged 14 or so, when we read it aloud round the class. I was blown away by it...
Respect, but at 14 I had other ideas about what I'd have liked to have been 'blown away'/off by.... ;)
Marco.
Respect, but at 14 I had other ideas about what I'd have liked to have been 'blown away'/off by.... ;)
Marco.
Why not do both, whilst reading Chaucer say?
Sounds intriguing, but she'd need to have a big mouth! :D
Marco.
Good idea. She'd need to have a big mouth! :D
Marco.
I can assure you Tabatha's mouth is the perfect size for that.
Then, bring on the entertainment! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
16-08-2016, 13:33
Brilliant! Man delights not me; no, nor woman neither.
:)
Brilliant! Man delights not me; no, nor woman neither.
Brilliant how? What does that bollocks even mean in today's world? :hmm:
Please translate into normal English :)
Marco.
Brilliant how? What does that bollocks even mean in today's world? :hmm:
Please translate into normal English :)
Marco.
The depressing fact of how good humankind can or should be, or proclaim to be, and how they actually are in life... Overall, its pretty true as well which makes it sadder, if thats a word
The depressing fact of how good humankind can or should be, or proclaim to be, and how they actually are in life... Overall, its pretty true as well which makes it sadder, if thats a word
Indeed it is, and thanks for that.
Fair enough to anyone who's into that Shakespearian stuff, if they enjoy it for the right reasons (such as Joe), but I just think much of it is pretentious bollocks, favoured by 'intellectuals' who embrace it, in order to make themselves feel 'superior', and that it represents a vulgar sense of snobbery, much in the same 'elitist'/'arty-farty' way as classical music is sometimes treated (poetry, too) - and that shit I have no time for whatsoever [the snobbery and elitism, that is]! :nono:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2016, 11:12
Indeed it is, and thanks for that.
Fair enough to anyone who's into that Shakespearian stuff, if they enjoy it for the right reasons (such as Joe), but I just think much of it is pretentious bollocks, favoured by 'intellectuals' who embrace it, in order to make themselves feel 'superior', and that it represents a vulgar sense of snobbery, much in the same 'elitist'/'arty-farty' way as classical music is sometimes treated (poetry, too) - and that shit I have no time for whatsoever! :nono:
Marco.
Have you no soul?! There's a BBC R2 feature on most mornings called "What it means to be human" in which various people give an essay on just that from their own perspective. Shakespeare said it better, more eloquently, more concisely and with more "hit the nail on the head-ness" than anyone before or since;)
The bit Joe and I were messing with is from Hamlet, Prince of Denmark. It's a soliloquy given by Hamlet to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern (two mates of his) in which , to me anyway, he describes what it's like to be depressed, "lost the spark", "can't be arsed anymore", better than anything else I've ever read...
It's also delivered by Withnail in the pissing rain to some soggy wolves in a zoo in the last scene of Withnail and I... and very poignant it is. I suppose both Hamlet and Withnail & I are basically tragi-comedies...
Anyway if this makes no sense to you and doesn't move you then you have issues :D Read on....
" I have of late, (but wherefore I know not) lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed, it goes so heavily with my disposition; that this goodly frame the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy the air, look you, this brave o'er hanging firmament, this majestical roof, fretted with golden fire: why, it appeareth no other thing to me, than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. 'What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals! And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me; no, nor Woman neither; though by your smiling you seem to say so."
Enjoy - it's just not my thing... Largely bores the pants off of me. And yes, I have plenty of 'soul', but contained/expressed in other areas. He who hath a dislike of paintings, pictures or sculptures hath no soul! :ner:
Different strokes for different folks, shweety.....
Marco.
I'm intrigued by the concept of people enjoying Shakespeare for the wrong reasons.
Anything that promotes or is born from elitism or snobbery, IMO, qualifies as 'a wrong reason'. However, I'm not saying that anyone here who likes Shakespeare is guilty of such :)
Marco.
Personally as ive said b4, although he was a terrific writer in his day, it is often not so relavent today, and also in a language that puts many off. A number of teachers wish they didnt teach it as a main subject in English.
I am inclined to agree.
Just seems to me that people might claim to like it to appear smart but in actual fact they don't like it, so they are not enoying it for the wrong reasons, they are just pretending to enjoy it to impress people whilst not actually enjoying it at all. Which seems to me like some form of self-flagellation.
Thing with Shakey is it can be done well, or badly. I've been to some I've really enjoyed and others where I've quit at half time because it was wank. Try to avoid RSC productions as IME they seem to think they don't have to try. Sometimes they don't even bother to dress up.
Just seems to me that people might claim to like it to appear smart but in actual fact they don't like it, so they are not enoying it for the wrong reasons, they are just pretending to enjoy it to impress people whilst not actually enjoying it at all. Which seems to me like some form of self-flagellation.
*That* is precisely what I detest, and the pretentious wankers who behave in such a ridiculous way! :wanker:
Trouble is, they're 'impressing' no-one; just making themselves look like tits. The other thing that rips my knitting is the tendency for people to impose their own 'standards of excellence' on others, and worse, turn it into the de facto 'intellectual standard' everyone else should aspire to, in order to be considered as 'intelligent' or 'educated'... :rolleyes:
I've never signed up to that particular mantra, as I consider it superficial at best, and at worst, narrow-minded and ignorant.
Thing with Shakey is it can be done well, or badly. I've been to some I've really enjoyed and others where I've quit at half time because it was wank. Try to avoid RSC productions as IME they seem to think they don't have to try. Sometimes they don't even bother to dress up.
Cheers. I'll bear it in mind. Shakey? I have all of his albums. 'This Ol' House', 'You Drive me Crazy' - the lot! :eyebrows:;)
Marco.
Just seems to me that people might claim to like it to appear smart but in actual fact they don't like it, so they are not enoying it for the wrong reasons, they are just pretending to enjoy it to impress people whilst not actually enjoying it at all. Which seems to me like some form of self-flagellation.
Thing with Shakey is it can be done well, or badly. I've been to some I've really enjoyed and others where I've quit at half time because it was wank. Try to avoid RSC productions as IME they seem to think they don't have to try. Sometimes they don't even bother to dress up.
Not real lovies then ;)
walpurgis
17-08-2016, 11:50
'The Taming of The Shrew' is a brilliant bit of writing and has great relevance in modern terms. It's clever, very observant of human nature and funny too.
Yes, I liked that! There was a drama on it, which was broadcast a few years ago, and it was excellent :)
A right funny looking woman played the lead role, can't remember her name, and she had a rather high-pitched voice...
Marco.
walpurgis
17-08-2016, 12:02
Meryl Streep did a very good 'made for TV' stage performance of it years ago. I think it was Daniel Massey who had the male lead. Excellent stuff.
Zeffirelli's film interpretation of the same with Burton & Taylor is a real treat to watch. Two superb actors performing an excellent tale. It's full of fun and mischief. Lovely!
Shirley Henderson did a version for the beeb a number of years ago.
This is the TV drama I was thinking of, from 2005, shown on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/shakespeare/tamingoftheshrew/
It was excellent :)
Marco.
Is it Shirley Henderson who's got the weird looking coupon? Her with the painfully thin pasty-white face and jet-black hair, who looks a bit like a witch?
Marco.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160817/7a6163ed79892ad13068c5ffd79f93d8.jpg
Yup, that's her! Great actress, though. She looks much healthier in that picture. I very much enjoyed watching that drama.
Now you see I can enjoy that, because although it was based on a Shakespearian comedy, it's been dramatised for TV, and that (for me) made it more watchable/entertaining. However, had it been a more 'serious' play, full of near-incomprehensible Shakespearian dialogue, performed by "lovies", as you describe them (or worse, a book), that'd have been Boresville City, and a total turn off!
Do you see where I'm coming from? :)
Marco.
Brilliant how? What does that bollocks even mean in today's world? :hmm:
Please translate into normal English :)
Marco.
It's brilliant in the sense that it's a quote from Withal and I which is also a quote from Shakespeare, thus tying the two thread drifts together. In context, it's a key speech from Hamlet, where he discusses his state of man with Rosencrantz:
'I have of late—but wherefore I know not—lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises, and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals. And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. No, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.'
Altogether, a pretty accurate description of the state of mind of someone who's depressed. The site from which I nabbed the quote gives a 'modern day' version of it, which robs it of any poetry, and is actually not much 'easier' in terms of language:
'Recently, though I don’t know why, I’ve lost all sense of fun, stopped exercising—the whole world feels sterile and empty. This beautiful canopy we call the sky—this majestic roof decorated with golden sunlight—why, it’s nothing more to me than disease-filled air. What a perfect invention a human is, how noble in his capacity to reason, how unlimited in thinking, how admirable in his shape and movement, how angelic in action, how godlike in understanding! There’s nothing more beautiful. We surpass all other animals. And yet to me, what are we but dust? Men don’t interest me. No—women neither, but you’re smiling, so you must think they do.'
Sorry, Joe, you're not convincing me it's "brilliant" ;)
Enjoy, though. Each to his or her own :)
Marco.
Just seems to me that people might claim to like it to appear smart but in actual fact they don't like it, so they are not enoying it for the wrong reasons, they are just pretending to enjoy it to impress people whilst not actually enjoying it at all. Which seems to me like some form of self-flagellation.
I wish I had the ability to determine whether someone is 'really' liking Shakespeare or only pretending to like it. I prefer reading his plays, or watching TV adaptations of them to watching them acted live on stage, because I find it hard to suspend disbelief in the theatre, as I'm always aware of being surrounded by other people, and the seats are often not that comfortable.
That's shocking. Is that how they teach it now?
Personally as ive said b4, although he was a terrific writer in his day, it is often not so relavent today, and also in a language that puts many off.
You can say that of Chaucer, who is incomprehensible without a 'crib' to hand, but Shakespearean language is actually quite close to modern English, and if an adaptation isn't too 'stuffy', can engage young audiences - look at Romeo + Juliet starring Leo di Caprio.
That's shocking. Is that how they teach it now?
Dunno. I cribbed it off some US 'Sparknotes' site, which is aimed at schoolchildren. It's not how my children were taught Shakespeare, but even for the younger one that's going back ten years or so.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160817/7a6163ed79892ad13068c5ffd79f93d8.jpg
This is quite funny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SJL-hvMfRQ
Marco.
I wish I had the ability to determine whether someone is 'really' liking Shakespeare or only pretending to like it. I prefer reading his plays, or watching TV adaptations of them to watching them acted live on stage, because I find it hard to suspend disbelief in the theatre, as I'm always aware of being surrounded by other people, and the seats are often not that comfortable.
Yes, I'm not big on the theatre either, but I've seen some really good stage productions, proper contempory dress, proper sword-fighting, special effects and so on. And some where they just turn up in their normal clothes and recite the lines. When you read Hamlet you don't really imagine them wearing polo-necks and jeans.
On the other hand the language is part of the beauty of it and not hard to understand once you adjust to it. So film adaptions tend to fall between two stools where they get the visuals spot on but water-down the dialogue.
My favourite fim adaption has to be 'Ran', but it isn't truly an adaption as it just uses the King Lear story, which existed long before Shakey wrote his play.
Yes, I'm not big on the theatre either, but I've seen some really good stage productions, proper contempory dress, proper sword-fighting, special effects and so on. And some where they just turn up in their normal clothes and recite the lines. When you read Hamlet you don't really imagine them wearing polo-necks and jeans.
On the other hand the language is part of the beauty of it and not hard to understand once you adjust to it. So film adaptions tend to fall between two stools where they get the visuals spot on but water-down the dialogue.
My favourite fim adaption has to be 'Ran', but it isn't truly an adaption as it just uses the King Lear story, which existed long before Shakey wrote his play.
I'm not sure which is my favourite film adaptation; I recently re-watched, after a gap of 40 or so years, Larry Olivier's Hamlet. Oh dear. The emphasis was very much on the 'Ham'. Polanski's 'Macbeth' is a good 'un, as is 'Throne of Blood' (directed by 'Ran' bloke IIRC).
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2016, 13:39
Tom Stoppards' "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead" is brilliant to but if you don't like Shaky you won't like this as it's based on Hamlet...
I quite like Henry V with Kenneth whtisname, but that doesn't seem to be too popular an adaption.
When we are born, we cry that we are come to this great stage of fools
Talking of new borns....a bleedin convoy of women and prams have been walking down my street. I,m talking 20 here! :stalks:
I locked the door just in case
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2016, 14:35
I quite like Henry V with Kenneth whtisname, but that doesn't seem to be too popular an adaption.
Branagh I presume?
I don't like these modern dress and setting versions at all.. can't be doing with them. I want the original setting (not the stock exchange or nazi germany!), original language and proper costumes!
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2016, 14:40
When we are born, we cry that we are come to this great stage of fools
Talking of new borns....a bleedin convoy of women and prams have been walking down my street. I,m talking 20 here! :stalks:
I locked the door just in case
And you want to Lear at them? :D
I hope they don't have detector prams....
Yes, I'm with you on that.
Thought it apt ;). Maybe an outing....to meet daddy :lol: thing is this is a quite out of the way st and not really a route to anywhere. The area i live in is small and there probably isnt that many bairnable women in whole estate
Branagh I presume?
I don't like these modern dress and setting versions at all.. can't be doing with them. I want the original setting (not the stock exchange or nazi germany!), original language and proper costumes!
It's an interesting point. I wonder if, in Shakespeare's day, the 'Roman' plays were performed in togas, or in what was then 'modern dress'? If you look at Renaissance paintings of the Crucifixion, the Roman soldiers are depicted in the costume of Italian soldiers of the 15th century.
When we are born, we cry that we are come to this great stage of fools
Talking of new borns....a bleedin convoy of women and prams have been walking down my street. I,m talking 20 here! :stalks:
I locked the door just in case
Sorry, daftee, I don't get the relevance of this (especially the first sentence), unless it's another reference to 'Shakey', in which case it should've been posted in the new thread? :scratch:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2016, 15:30
Pearls on swine :D
Lol - but I'm going to have to insist that any more 'Shakey' references are posted in the new thread.
Marco.
Sorry, daftee, I don't get the relevance of this (especially the first sentence), unless it's another reference to 'Shakey', in which case it should've been posted in the new thread? :scratch:
Marco.
So is this thread now only for Ken Kessler-related posts?
Not necessarily (if it's witty, humorous, or even on-topic in some way) - but I don't want to read any more about bloody Shakespeare! ;)
Marco.
Sorry, daftee, I don't get the relevance of this (especially the first sentence), unless it's another reference to 'Shakey', in which case it should've been posted in the new thread? :scratch:
Marco.
Didnt know youd moved them.. I,ll shift them later when on pc... Aye it was a quote to the bored....oops bard;)
Not necessarily (if it's witty, humorous, or even on-topic in some way) - but I don't want to read any more about bloody Shakespeare! ;)
Marco.
Out, damn'd spot! out, I say
They didn't know in those days what the Romans actually wore, though, so they have an excuse. Unlike Andrew LLoyd Webber.
What about all those Roman-era films where the statues are unpainted plain marble and stone whereas we now know they were brightly painted.
Tell you what is a cracking adaption - Julius Caesar with Marlon Brando. They hardly ever show it on the telly, though.
I'm not sure which is my favourite film adaptation; I recently re-watched, after a gap of 40 or so years, Larry Olivier's Hamlet. Oh dear. The emphasis was very much on the 'Ham'. Polanski's 'Macbeth' is a good 'un, as is 'Throne of Blood' (directed by 'Ran' bloke IIRC).
'Throne of Blood' is based on Macbeth, not a direct adaptation. (Your "'Ran' bloke" is Akiro Kurasawa by the way :))
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