Want to hear a London Decca cart

[paulf-2007]

I am itching to try a London super gold but the nearest place to demo one, not having ever heard one, is in Uxbridge, the wrong side of London from me. Is there anyone that would kindly let me hear their cart in action before I bite the bullet and buy one. Doesn't have to be a super gold, any London cart will give a taste of the sound and should I hear and like a maroon for example I would be saving some money.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I have a Decca Gold (eliptical stylus) with maybe 50 hours on it since it was serviced (realigned and recalibrated) by John Wright earlier this year. His written report states the stylus had "minimal wear" at that time - it has only the 50 hours more now - tops. I was about to put it up for sale at £425. Are you interested as a low cost toe in the Decca water? Regards. Gary.

[paulf-2007]

I have a Decca Gold (eliptical stylus) with maybe 50 hours on it since it was serviced (realigned and recalibrated) by John Wright earlier this year. His written report states the stylus had "minimal wear" at that time - it has only the 50 hours more now - tops. I was about to put it up for sale at £425. Are you interested as a low cost toe in the Decca water? Regards. Gary.
I will bear it in mind Gary, a mate has offered me his super gold to try but not for sale. Once I've had a listen I may get back to you, thanks for the offer.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I will bear it in mind Gary, a mate has offered me his super gold to try but not for sale. Once I've had a listen I may get back to you, thanks for the offer.

:thumbsup:Good stuff, Paul. Have fun!
Regards
Gary

[paulf-2007]

Well I picked up Jims super gold and got it set up in the Stax arm. Played Nina Simone as it was handy nd it sounded ok, my amps need an hour to sound their best so I wasn't being judgemental. Later I put Roy Orbison on, " pretty woman " the drums in the intro sounded different, a sound like a click on the snare drum that I assumed was just something I hadn't heard before but as the other instruments came in and the drums got louder that cluck turned into a noise I cannot describe and seemed to excite the cart to the point I removed the arm from the record. I took this as mistracking and something I haven't experienced before. I tried adding some mass to the arm without any change and can only think the arm is not suitable.
The fact that the main cartridge body is slid onto the piece that houses the tags and bolts to the headshell although convenient for swapping carts allows it to flap about and on some music mistracks. I've heard people using blue tack between the cart and headshell if I have understood this correctly. I was thinking to put some between the headshell and the main cart body to stop it moving, I don't have blue tack but I do have plumbers mate, it's a putty used on sanitary ware but as its not my cart I am concerned it may react with the body material.

[Infinitely Baffled]

Oh, dear. That doesn't sound too promising! Decca cartridges do like unipivot arms - I'm not sure what type the Stax is. That's not to say they won't work properly in a gimballed design. My Gold plays nicely in my SME-M2, though it did show signs of instability until I added a further 10 grammes of arm mass. Although that sliding fit mounting block isn't exactly what you would expect or want on an audiophile cartridge, it generally does its job well and it certainly shouldn't be slack enough to permit the cartridge to waggle about. I'm inclined to think there may be something wrong with it if it does. Also, I would be careful with the Blu Tack trick - if you insert a piece that bridges the entire space between the cartridge lid and the underside of the headshell, you may find that it has a tendency to eject the cartridge out of the sliding block mount. Blu Tack is quite springy and resilient and will try to push the cartridge and the headshell apart. Personally I can't hear any difference with or without Blu Tack. Keep trying, though, Paul. You may find you like the sound so much it was all worthwhile. Good luck! Infinitely Baffled.

[Jimbo]

Well I picked up Jims super gold and got it set up in the Stax arm. Played Nina Simone as it was handy nd it sounded ok, my amps need an hour to sound their best so I wasn't being judgemental. Later I put Roy Orbison on, " pretty woman " the drums in the intro sounded different, a sound like a click on the snare drum that I assumed was just something I hadn't heard before but as the other instruments came in and the drums got louder that cluck turned into a noise I cannot describe and seemed to excite the cart to the point I removed the arm from the record. I took this as mistracking and something I haven't experienced before. I tried adding some mass to the arm without any change and can only think the arm is not suitable.
The fact that the main cartridge body is slid onto the piece that houses the tags and bolts to the headshell although convenient for swapping carts allows it to flap about and on some music mistracks. I've heard people using blue tack between the cart and headshell if I have understood this correctly. I was thinking to put some between the headshell and the main cart body to stop it moving, I don't have blue tack but I do have plumbers mate, it's a putty used on sanitary ware but as its not my cart I am concerned it may react with the body material.


Sorry your first experience of the Decca has not got off to a good start Paul but I would consider a number of aspects concerning the Decca. They really do like a damped unipivot arm best to work well, the unipivot is the most important aspect. Secondly blue tac is for only minor tuning of the resonances from the lid of the cartridge construction,it will not sort out cartridge instability and arm mis match or compliance issues. It's good for adding mass however.

Lastly and of great importance, these cartridges can go astray in the build construction internally and really do need to be checked over by John Wright Audio Services to ensure they are fit for use. This is just my opinion but I would never risk using a Decca without knowing it is fundamentally OK to use.

Hope this helps:)

[topoxforddoc]

Which Stax tonearm do you have? Do you know its effective mass?

It does sound like a form of mistracking. That might be due to tonearm resonance, faulty setup (incl fixing the cartridge into the bracket - you can push it firmly into the bracket), mismatch with the tonearm (with too much energy going into the bearing), or a fault with the cartridge.

[paulf-2007]

Which Stax tonearm do you have? Do you know its effective mass?

It does sound like a form of mistracking. That might be due to tonearm resonance, faulty setup (incl fixing the cartridge into the bracket - you can push it firmly into the bracket), mismatch with the tonearm (with too much energy going into the bearing), or a fault with the cartridge.
Hi Charlie, nice to hear you, it's a UA-70 12" unipivot, I have the spec in the manual but it doesn't show the effective mass.

[Barry]

Sorry your first experience of the Decca has not got off to a good start Paul but I would consider a number of aspects concerning the Decca. They really do like a damped unipivot arm best to work well, the unipivot is the most important aspect. Secondly blue tac is for only minor tuning of the resonances from the lid of the cartridge construction,it will not sort out cartridge instability and arm mis match or compliance issues. It's good for adding mass however.

Lastly and of great importance, these cartridges can go astray in the build construction internally and really do need to be checked over by John Wright Audio Services to ensure they are fit for use. This is just my opinion but I would never risk using a Decca without knowing it is fundamentally OK to use.

Hope this helps:)

Not necessarily true - neither the Decca 'Professional' nor the Decca 'ffss' arms were unipivot designs. I have succesfully used Deccas in either an Infinity 'Black Widow' arm or an SME 3009 Series II arm, both of which employ knife-edge vertical bearings.

The inportant thing is the presence of damping - provided in the case of the Decca arms mentioned above by grease damping of the vertical needle-point bearings, and in the case of the latter two arms through the use of a silicone oil damping trough, located near the bearings.


However, depending on the arm and how it is mounted, it is possible to dispense with damping. If the bearings are good enough, the excess energy will be ducted through the bearings without reflection, and dissipated in the mass of the turntable.

I once loaned my Decca Mk. VI mounted in a Sumiko headshell to a friend for use in his 9" un-damped Jelco arm. He was euphoric in his response on hearing how the Decca performed.

[Jimbo]

Not necessarily true - neither the Decca 'Professional' nor the Decca 'ffss' arms were unipivot designs. I have succesfully used Deccas in either an Infinity 'Black Widow' arm or an SME 3009 Series II arm, both of which employ knife-edge vertical bearings.

The inportant thing is the presence of damping - provided in the case of the Decca arms mentioned above by grease damping of the vertical needle-point bearings, and in the case of the latter two arms through the use of a silicone oil damping trough, located near the bearings.


However, depending on the arm and how it is mounted, it is possible to dispense with damping. If the bearings are good enough, the excess energy will be ducted through the bearings without reflection, and dissipated in the mass of the turntable.

I once loaned my Decca Mk. VI mounted in a Sumiko headshell to a friend for use in his 9" un-damped Jelco arm. He was euphoric in his response on hearing how the Decca performed.

The Black Widow is a very low mass arm is it not? I am sure your knowledge of the technical compatibility of the Decca and tonearms is greater than mine Barry so I must bow to your greater experience.

I always though unipivots were the tonearm of choice with a Decca as knife edge or gimbal bearing arms could cause resonance issues excited by the high energy output of the Decca. I can see where the damping issue is of more importance.

[walpurgis]

The fluid damped Mission 774 is also a low mass arm with a vertical movement gimbal and is one of the best choices for use with Deccas. It is also excellent with low compliance MCs.

[Barry]

Yes, the Mission 774 ought to a good match with Deccas.

Apropos my use of a Decca with an Infinity 'Black Widow', true it is a low mass arm (effective mass 3g; and one of the few arms suitable for use with the ADC 25 cartridge), but the Decca (a Mk. VI) was mounted in the GB mounting block, so increasing the overall mass.

May not be an optimum combination, but it worked very well.

[paulf-2007]

Did a search r.e. the effective mass of the Stax, one search said 16g another was about a UA-7, 9" arm that the person said worked very well. I also have a UA-7 so could try it if I get time. I'm more inclined to listen Jims super gold and Johns with a pod and see what they are all about, when they plan to try both in a few weeks time. But any suggestions in the meantime are appreciated.

[Barry]

Taking figures for the Decca Super Gold from vinylengine.com (http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=Decca&t=any&mod=&sort=2&Search=Search&sty=&ovlo=&ovhi=&can=&dclo=&dchi=&stid=&masslo=&masshi=&notes=&prlo=&prhi= ), the calculated low frequency resonance for the cartridge mounted in the Stax arm (taking your figure of 16g for the effective mass) are:

9.6Hz for the Super Gold (dynamic compliance 12 cu)

and

10.5Hz for the Super Gold Mk. VII (dynamic compliance 10 cu)

These figures are textbook, but in practice since the vertical compliance is different (lower) than the lateral compliance, there will be two arm resonance frequencies. Despite this, on paper, the Decca ought to work well in your Stax arm.

Since you are experiencing difficulties, it could well mean you need to try using some BluTak or Plasticine pressed between the top of the cartridge body and the underside of the headshell. Incidently don't be put off by the less than rigid coupling between the cartridge body and the plastic mounting bracket. Deccas are one of the few cartridges (possibly the only ones) when a certain amount of compliance is beneficial (which is why Decca engineers designed it that way).

[Jimbo]

Taking figures for the Decca Super Gold from vinylengine.com, (http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_database.php?m=Decca&t=any&mod=&sort=2&Search=Search&sty=&ovlo=&ovhi=&can=&dclo=&dchi=&stid=&masslo=&masshi=¬es=&prlo=&prhi= ) the calculated low frequency resonance for the cartridge mounted in the Stax arm (taking your figure of 16g for the effective mass) are:

9.6Hz for the Super Gold (dynamic compliance 12 cu)

and

10.5Hz for the Super Gold Mk. VII (dynamic compliance 10 cu)

These figures are textbook, but in practice since the vertical compliance is different (lower) than the lateral compliance, there will be two arm resonance frequencies. Despite this, on paper, the Decca ought to work well in your Stax arm.

Since you are experiencing difficulties, it could well mean you need to try using some BluTak or Plasticine pressed between the top of the cartridge body and the underside of the headshell. Incidently don't be put off by the less than rigid coupling between the cartridge body and the plastic mounting bracket. Deccas are one of the few cartridges (possibly the only ones) when a certain amount of compliance is beneficial (which is why Decca engineers designed it that way).

I believe the plastic cartridge mounting sounds better as it was designed to take out some of the energy from the cartridge unlike the decapod?

[Barry]

I believe the plastic cartridge mounting sounds better as it was designed to take out some of the energy from the cartridge unlike the decapod?

Yes, precisely through the lossy coupling between cartridge body and mounting bracket. If you don't use the mounting bracket and instead use either the Deccapod or the GB block, you need to absorb the excess energy elsewhere; typically by ducting it down the arm tube and absorbing it either in the (damped) arm bearing(s), or by using a damping dashpot.

[paulf-2007]

Thanks for that Barry and thanks also to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far. I did ask about putting blue tack between the cart body and headshell in my broken English, I do apologise if I failed to explain it well but I've only lived here for 62 years and the first two I couldn't talk anyway :)
That was a joke so please don't take it the wrong way. I will certainly give that a try.

[walpurgis]

Just a little note to anybody contemplating the use of a Decca London in a Mission 774.

It's not a straightforward mounting job.

The red cartridge mount is threaded and so is the 774 head block, so one set of threads has to be drilled out to allow mounting screws through. I've done it both ways, drilled out the cartridge mount and put screws through into the arm head block threads. Or, drilled the head block through and put screws through into the cartridge mount threads. Simple enough, but has to be taken into account.

[paulf-2007]

Had some spare time this afternoon so mounted the super gold on a headshell with some putty between the cart body and headshell, played some music and all sounded ok so it was time for Roy Orbison pretty woman, snare drum on intro sounded normal and when the other instruments joined in there was none of the clicking I had before. Played the whole track with no issues. I can't say for certain that the set up is spot on but close enough to know that the itch I had is now scratched and I can look forward to the Shure Ultra 500 with jico sas stylus I have coming this week. I don't think I will be shelling out £825 for a super gold. Thanks to Jim for lending me the cart and I look forward to hearing it and another with a pod sometime soon.

[Jimbo]

Had some spare time this afternoon so mounted the super gold on a headshell with some putty between the cart body and headshell, played some music and all sounded ok so it was time for Roy Orbison pretty woman, snare drum on intro sounded normal and when the other instruments joined in there was none of the clicking I had before. Played the whole track with no issues. I can't say for certain that the set up is spot on but close enough to know that the itch I had is now scratched and I can look forward to the Shure Ultra 500 with jico sas stylus I have coming this week. I don't think I will be shelling out £825 for a super gold. Thanks to Jim for lending me the cart and I look forward to hearing it and another with a pod sometime soon.

I have the M55e with JICO SAS and it delivers a very detailed musical performance, will be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Shure Ultra 500.

[paulf-2007]

I'm like a coiled spring waiting for it to arrive :)