View Full Version : Anatomy of a phono stage, well we all like pictures.
Firebottle
12-08-2016, 15:09
Thought I'd post this up before it gets built, for the delectation of you all.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle%20phono/P1050668.jpg
:)
Arkless Electronics
12-08-2016, 15:14
Thought I'd post this up before it gets built, for the delectation of you all.
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt97/Paramotorpilot/Firebottle%20phono/P1050668.jpg
:)
Not everyone... I don't like pictures!
Why on earth not, daftee?
Anyway, I like it, Alan. Someone could make a rather nice sculpture with that. There's something strangely artistic about it :)
Marco.
brian2957
12-08-2016, 16:47
Yup , I could make a nice sculpture with all that gear . Couldn't make a phono stage with it though . Respect to those who can :)
Reminds me of those pictures of military units with all their kit laid out for inspection.
I suppose it is a bit like building a Lego model.
It would make your head go
http://www.mnn.com/sites/default/files/user/131413/electronic%20bust%20crazy%20hair.jpg
:eek:
Arkless Electronics
12-08-2016, 17:32
Why on earth not, daftee?
Anyway, I like it, Alan. Someone could make a rather nice sculpture with that. There's something strangely artistic about it :)
Marco.
If I could be bothered I'd post some "needledrops" of the sound of my camera working..zzz click....
Hi fi's are for listening to not looking at!
As I am probably in a club of one I'll get my daftee coat :D:doh:
Does this only apply to pictures of hi-fi?
What about cars, bikes, weapons and naked ladies?
If I could be bothered I'd post some "needledrops" of the sound of my camera working..zzz click....
Hi fi's are for listening to not looking at!
As I am probably in a club of one I'll get my daftee coat :D:doh:
Ah - I was talking about both pictures in general (as in the ones you hang on your wall) and also pictures of hi-fi equipment, such as the gallery section is full of. So are you saying that you see no point in people showing off their systems for others to look at?
I'm with you though on hi-fi equipment being primarily for listening to, so am very much in the 'anti-bling' brigade, but I certainly like to see nice pictures of people's systems - and I can tell you that such threads are one of the most popular on any hi-fi forum! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
12-08-2016, 17:56
Looking good, Alan. How long will it take?
I think it's important not to be too dogmatic with regard to any particular hi-fi artefact (hmm,... I realise there is some irony/hypocrisy in this comment - but that doesn't mean it isn't true).
Alan, I think that's a great picture :).
Excellent idea to put a picture up like that Alan, it could be a hifi first. Reminds me of Pink Floyd Ummagumma album sleeve when the band had all their equipment laid out as you have done with the phono components.
Very imaginative mate.
Does this only apply to pictures of hi-fi?
What about cars, bikes, weapons and naked ladies?
Or test equipment... ;)
Can you imagine getting a hard-on over a 'sexy' spectrum analyser? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Or test equipment... ;)
Can you imagine getting a hard-on over a 'sexy' spectrum analyser? :eyebrows:
Marco.
what's that then?
Reminds me of Bagheera's face - strange, I know lol
Firebottle
13-08-2016, 06:12
Excellent idea to put a picture up like that Alan, it could be a hifi first. Reminds me of Pink Floyd Ummagumma album sleeve when the band had all their equipment laid out as you have done with the phono components.
Very imaginative mate.
James we are on the same page. That is what inspired me :mex:
Firebottle
13-08-2016, 06:17
Looking good, Alan. How long will it take?
I've not timed myself from absolute beginning to end, as I have usually done a bit at a time, but I would say 2 days. :)
what's that then?
Can you remember your last one, and is it with a degree of fondness? :D
Marco.
Not everyone... I don't like pictures!
Given the "other thread" this just about says it all:rolleyes:
Which other thread are you referring to, Rob?
Marco.
This one.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?45965-quot-Croft-Micro-25R-rival-quot/page7
Ah, that one. Cheers.
Marco,
Or test equipment... ;)
Can you imagine getting a hard-on over a 'sexy' spectrum analyser? :eyebrows:
Marco.
http://www.tek.com/sites/tek.com/files/media/image/MDO3000-Mixed-Domain-Oscilloscope_1_0.jpg
Phwooor! Arf Arf! :lol:
I'll push all your right buttons, darling.... :kiss: :kiss:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 11:11
Given the "other thread" this just about says it all:rolleyes:
Yeah? and whats your problem?
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 11:14
Ah - I was talking about both pictures in general (as in the ones you hang on your wall) and also pictures of hi-fi equipment, such as the gallery section is full of. So are you saying that you see no point in people showing off their systems for others to look at?
I'm with you though on hi-fi equipment being primarily for listening to, so am very much in the 'anti-bling' brigade, but I certainly like to see nice pictures of people's systems - and I can tell you that such threads are one of the most popular on any hi-fi forum! ;)
Marco.
That's something I wouldnt even bother looking at... zero interest to me... It's something I guess I "don't get".
I like pictures...they speak a 1000 words in many cases. Maybe worth your while seeing what folk like as to presentation Jez.
I found some of old gear i had and misplaced and really enjoyed seeing them again.
That's something I wouldnt even bother looking at... zero interest to me... It's something I guess I "don't get".
As Grant says, if 'got into' a bit more what makes folks tick, in that respect, it might help sales of your equipment! ;)
I think one of the issues you have is in expecting people to automatically 'sign up to world of Jez', whilst making little attempt to understand/empathise with or embrace the world that your potential customer's inhabit...
With respect, I think it's something that you struggle with and need to solve, in order to achieve your desired aims for your business.
Marco.
Yeah? and whats your problem?
Same as your's.....probably.
An unhealthy interest in ladies underwear?
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 12:10
I like pictures...they speak a 1000 words in many cases. Maybe worth your while seeing what folk like as to presentation Jez.
I found some of old gear i had and misplaced and really enjoyed seeing them again.
Oh I'm well aware that I'm in a minority on this one Grant! To me (and I don't know if this is an engineer thing or just a me thing!) an amp is the circuit topology and the parts... the casework is "merely" something to house it. I can to some extent see that to an average enthusiast who doesn't understand the inner workings then an amp IS the thing you look at, the outer casework. For my own use gear often ends up being used without any casework. IE just circuit boards laying on the carpet...
My next offering, obliquely mentioned by Puffin above, will look the part... In fact it will REALLY look the part, bling bling! It goes against the grain for me as I will have to reduce the quality of the innards to allow for the extreme expense of the casework, like everyone else does! This is a phenomena which has long bugged me as when at Alchemist I had many arguments about just this... but always lost for "commercial reasons"... so the 10,000uF smoothing caps I wanted to fit would always go down to 4700uF to allow the money to be spent on gold plated selector and volume knobs :eek:
In my forthcoming amp for example the casework and the finishing of said casework will amount to 2/3 of the cost of making it... now personally this is not what I want to do but It's becoming more and more obvious to me that, when all is said and done, people buy hi fi with their eyes more than their ears.... hence the story I've retold several times of Alchemists biggest customer (a far eastern importer/distributor) not being interested in hearing the products but being super interested in the styling and finish....
All anathema to me but if I want to actually sell anything it's looking like this is the direction I must go in.... I'd personally prefer to build stuff that looks like a home made 1960's car battery charger but, at only £800, wipes the floor with anything up to £3K... but it seems I was very wrong in thinking that others would think the same way and that there was a market for this. There's now't as queer as folk as they say:)
Oh and sorry Alan for off topic-ing etc your thread! :)
In my forthcoming amp for example the casework and the finishing of said casework will amount to 2/3 of the cost of making it... now personally this is not what I want to do but It's becoming more and more obvious to me that, when all is said and done, people buy hi fi with their eyes more than their ears.... hence the story I've retold several times of Alchemists biggest customer (a far eastern importer/distributor) not being interested in hearing the products but being super interested in the styling and finish....
I completely share your sensibilities (a piece of hi-fi equipment merely being a 'tool' with which to reproduce music, so should be listened to more than looked at), *BUT* it's nice to be able to offer BOTH approaches to potential customers, so that they can make the decision on where the funds that they provide you with should be best spent, rather than you making their minds up for them (as is currently the case) ;)
As an aside, what's your view on speakers, in terms of the same argument? They're often viewed as being a 'piece of furniture', because they generally come in wooden boxes. So should speakers be 'heard and not seen', as it were, or do you care a bit more about what they look like, accepting that sounding good is a given? :)
Marco.
In many cases( pun intended) it has to fit into the house decor too. Wifes etc are at least 50% of this desire. I generally like something to look good, and sound good, as both are important, and yes in most aspects of life, people do by or select by looks first. A bit like picking a mate, or food, the first look is the important one. IE, go out looking like a tramp, then dont expect to pull anything better than one :D
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 12:47
I completely share your sensibilities (a piece of hi-fi equipment merely being a 'tool' with which to reproduce music, so should be listened to more than looked at), *BUT* it's nice to be able to offer BOTH approaches to potential customers, so that they can make the decision on where the funds that they provide you with should be best spent, rather than you making their minds up for them (as is currently the case) ;)
As an aside, what's your view on speakers, in terms of the same argument? They're often viewed as being a 'piece of furniture', because they generally come in wooden boxes. So should speakers be 'heard and not seen', as it were, or do you care a bit more about what they look like, accepting that sounding good is a given? :)
Marco.
I guess that speakers are indeed seen as furniture, they are also in direct line of sight and so maybe a bit more important.
Back in the day, Hi fi was predominantly designed to be fitted into a wooden cabinet in which the doors could be closed, leaving what appeared to be just a bureau of some sort. Power amps in particular were not intended to be seen at all! It was expected that they would be installed inside the back of the wooden case and never seen again... until it was time to change the valves! How things have changed!
I may well offer both approaches, as you say;)
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 13:05
In many cases( pun intended) it has to fit into the house decor too. Wifes etc are at least 50% of this desire. I generally like something to look good, and sound good, as both are important, and yes in most aspects of life, people do by or select by looks first. A bit like picking a mate, or food, the first look is the important one. IE, go out looking like a tramp, then dont expect to pull anything better than one :D
I've always taken the "if you don't like the hi fi TOUGH" approach to WAF etc...It's non negotiable. yes I'm presently single :D
I also never dress as anything but a "tramp"... hey I'm a biker/hippy etc type... and would have no interest in a women who was really bothered in something as shallow as my mode of dress... but again, that's just me! I've never owned a suit. I also wouldn't be interested in a really smart dressed women with all sorts of designer accessories etc... Too heavy on the running costs, can't be bothered to wait 2 hours while they do their make up and no way I would go out looking at handbags/shoes etc with them... usually with hints that I'm going to end up paying for them!:D
I'm happily enjoying a nagging-free single life for the time being... and not getting phone calls when out at a mates or in the pub saying "what sort of time do you call this?" etc:D
Firebottle
13-08-2016, 13:08
Oh and sorry Alan for off topic-ing etc your thread! :)
No problem Jez.
As far as looks of built equipment goes I believe you have to take advantage of the 'global' market. The majority of the cases I use are made in China, I make no bones about this as it is the only way to offer good SPPV.
If I could buy British at anything like the same cost I would, but sadly those times are long gone.
:)
I've always taken the "if you don't like the hi fi TOUGH" approach to WAF etc...It's non negotiable. yes I'm presently single :D
I also never dress as anything but a "tramp"... hey I'm a biker/hippy etc type... and would have no interest in a women who was really bothered in something as shallow as my mode of dress... but again, that's just me! I've never owned a suit. I also wouldn't be interested in a really smart dressed women with all sorts of designer accessories etc... Too heavy on the running costs, can't be bothered to wait 2 hours while they do their make up and no way I would go out looking at handbags/shoes etc with them... usually with hints that I'm going to end up paying for them!:D
I'm happily enjoying a nagging-free single life for the time being... and not getting phone calls when out at a mates or in the pub saying "what sort of time do you call this?" etc:D
Me too to last bit but enforced rather than choice lol. Still, you get my point, as most folk aint like you, and they are who your trying to impress enough to part with the hard earned, and not go to an established seller/manufacturer.
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 13:34
No problem Jez.
As far as looks of built equipment goes I believe you have to take advantage of the 'global' market. The majority of the cases I use are made in China, I make no bones about this as it is the only way to offer good SPPV.
If I could buy British at anything like the same cost I would, but sadly those times are long gone.
:)
I've not been able to find a British option... which is disappointing to say the least. It's looking like an Italian job... hifi2000. Very expensive but super quality (>£100 for the empty box!). If there was someone importing the Chinese cases whom I could deal with directly then I would consider it but I don't want to deal with Chinese companies via ebay, which seems the only option... in fact I avoid ebay like the plague when I can!
If I had more space and money I would actually manufacture the casework myself. I do have vast amounts of woodworking tools which I inherited so something part wood/part metal could be an option. Very labour intensive but saves a fortune on the cost of buying in ready made cases and allows me to get it just as I want it... it's not totally discounted though....
Using a SMPS as overall power and another SMPS inside the unit for HT, as I take it you do, is another option to save money which I have been toying with... I've designed and tested a suitable switcher for the HT about 2 years ago now...
speedracer
13-08-2016, 14:52
I would like to post my view here, with apologies to Alan for going off topic-ish.
A few months ago I was looking to upgrade my Pro-Ject Tube Box phono stage & posted on the wigwam asking for opinions on what to choose. One poster offered me his Arkless, & as I hadn't heard of it before did a little digging, where I found the old threads about Jez having difficulties fulfilling orders. Now I had to admit that this put me off the product, wondering what position I would be in if it developed any problems. It was enough of a worry to me that I didn't choose the Arkless, although given what I have learnt since if in the same position again would definitely try one now should the need arise.
Quite by chance I now find myself as the owner of a Firebottle Plus.
With regard to the aesthetics of a piece of kit, given identical performance I would always choose the best looking one, & I would guess to be in the majority in this. In the case of a phono stage I guess it doesn't matter what it looks like as it can easily be hidden away, but bigger kit like amplifiers in my view have to look good.
As said previously most people living with a partner have to compromise about how their kit is presented in the household, so having something good looking is improving the chances of "being allowed" to have it. For the record hifi has always been a non negotiable for me & I would never entertain living with someone who tried to veto my choices, but I know I am in a minority.
If the customer wants bling then giving them bling is not selling out your principles, it is recognising the market & offering it what they want.
True, the cosmetic appearance of a piece of equipment should always be secondary to the performance of the electronics - and when I used to dabble in DIY electronics for audio, I would often build headamps or filters etc. in old tobacco tins. However if friends wanted one built for them, I would always use a nice diecast box and even spray it whatever colour they wanted.
Nowadays I tend to be more concerned about the appearence of any gear on show, but eschew 'bling' and gold plate. In fact I like my gear to be either black or Quad 'snot' green or grey. I dislike champagne gold and really dislike copperplate script legends for the controls.
As an aside - to say the 'container' doesn't matter, would you drink wine or beer out of an old jam jar?
As said previously most people living with a partner have to compromise about how their kit is presented in the household, so having something good looking is improving the chances of "being allowed" to have it. For the record hifi has always been a non negotiable for me & I would never entertain living with someone who tried to veto my choices, but I know I am in a minority.
Nope, Brook, join my club! ;)
Shall I send you a club t-shirt, emblazoned with the logo: "WAF Victims Need to Grow Some!"? :D
Marco.
Not victims. Just people who realise that there partners wishes are as important as there own
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 15:47
I've gone as far as paving slabs on the carpet as speaker plinths before... No not painted or covered or anything. Aerials for ham radio strung around the garden at risk of decapitating her when putting the washing out.... uncased prototypes with 600V on them on the carpet ("don't go near it and it won't bite you" says I... "but I can't get to the cupboard with the place mats and there's family coming round" says she... Tough! Oh I'm hard core on this one:D
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 15:49
Not victims. Just people who realise that there partners wishes are as important as there own
That's how it starts Grant.... next thing you know the speakers have to go cos she wants cherrywood finish not rosewood.... :eyebrows:
Not victims. Just people who realise that there partners wishes are as important as there own
That's not what a WAF victim is. I realise that my wife's wishes are as important as my own - just not MORE so! ;)
It's about compromising. I simply don't see why 'she' should be the 'boss' and always get her own way. Certainly doesn't happen in our house, and neither do I always get my way either...
However, I would never be bossily TOLD by anyone, wife or otherwise, what I can and can't have in my own house :nono:
Marco.
That's how it starts Grant.... next thing you know the speakers have to go cos she wants cherrywood finish not rosewood.... :eyebrows:
Not here, but i took her ideas onboard of course. I picked the stuff, but obviously if i knew she hated it and it was going to be where she would be then i wouldnt get that. She did same, if i said it was gross then she would rethink.
Worked well, and i wasnt overly hindered.. I like nice looking things as she did, and i still do. I just have to do it on a very limited budget....like nowt lol
Think in all, i only showed her 2 or 3 things she hated, and on reflection, she was right.
No problem Jez.
As far as looks of built equipment goes I believe you have to take advantage of the 'global' market. The majority of the cases I use are made in China, I make no bones about this as it is the only way to offer good SPPV.
If I could buy British at anything like the same cost I would, but sadly those times are long gone.
:)
Your on the same page as Apple then Alan as they make all their stuff in China.
I've gone as far as paving slabs on the carpet as speaker plinths before... No not painted or covered or anything. Aerials for ham radio strung around the garden at risk of decapitating her when putting the washing out.... uncased prototypes with 600V on them on the carpet ("don't go near it and it won't bite you" says I... "but I can't get to the cupboard with the place mats and there's family coming round" says she... Tough! Oh I'm hard core on this one:D
I made a fireplace out of 2 slabs of concrete when i came here many years ago. Levelled and cemented to floor, then tiled them. Cost about a fiver all in, and picked a surround that had been a display for 10 quid. Repaired and fitted it. It looked a million dollars....just takes a bit of thought, and saved myself a few hundred for vinyl lol.
I've gone as far as paving slabs on the carpet as speaker plinths before... No not painted or covered or anything. Aerials for ham radio strung around the garden at risk of decapitating her when putting the washing out.... uncased prototypes with 600V on them on the carpet ("don't go near it and it won't bite you" says I... "but I can't get to the cupboard with the place mats and there's family coming round" says she... Tough! Oh I'm hard core on this one:D
I made a fireplace out of 2 slabs of concrete when i came here many years ago. Levelled and cemented to floor, then tiled them. Cost about a fiver all in, and picked a surround that had been a display for 10 quid. Repaired and fitted it. It looked a million dollars....just takes a bit of thought, and saved myself a few hundred for vinyl lol.
Arkless Electronics
13-08-2016, 16:31
I made a fireplace out of 2 slabs of concrete when i came here many years ago. Levelled and cemented to floor, then tiled them. Cost about a fiver all in, and picked a surround that had been a display for 10 quid. Repaired and fitted it. It looked a million dollars....just takes a bit of thought, and saved myself a few hundred for vinyl lol.
All good stuff:) The paving slabs didn't last long as I thought they made the sound considerably worse! The impression I got was that the sound was being reflected back up to the speaker rather than being terminated...
That can often happen. Depends on lots of things i guess. Ive got concrere floors downstairs so im kinda stuck with it to an extent.
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