View Full Version : Jelco SA-750D - Optimum Setup
Ammonite Audio
25-11-2009, 21:17
I'm pleased to say that my Jelco SA-750D is now working pretty well on the Technics, with either Ortofon Kontrapunkt B or 2M Black cartridges. Not as well, to my tastes, as the Tecnoarm, but way better than when I first tried it, when I disliked it quite intensively. I'm not sure what's changed in the intervening period. My ears, probably!
Could the Jelco users out there share their setup tips? I'm wondering particularly about the tightness of the various bolts etc; also use of damping fluid. Is it worth securing the (Neglex) arm cable to the base of the deck with a p-clip?
Incidentally, I have found using one of Audio Origami's headshell spirit levels ( http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/F_Sale/ForSale.htm ) to be invaluable in setting this arm up. Bang on level seems to suit the Ortofons; and it's so easy to set VTA and headshell azimuth accurately with Johnny's medium size level. The small one is rather trickier to use, but neither weighs enough to add any appreciable weight to the headshell. Johnny included some of his bearing oil with my last purchase, which I shall try out on my old Kenwood, and maybe the Technics too.
Another aside - I have a Pete Riggle VTAF coming from the States (see http://www.vtaf.com/ ) , which will be used on the Kenwood with the Tecnoarm. Wait out for impressions!
Marco will have to comment along with Dave Cawley, but I'm wondering if the Linn method of severely tightening all the fixings together is the right way to go with a Jelco on a Techie - firmly rather than excrutiatingly tight... Careful adjustment of damping would have a noticable affect I reckon.
Hi Shuggie,
The fact is the Tecnoarm might suit the Kontrapunkt B or 2M Black better than the Jelco. It's all about synergy, remember? :)
I'm afraid that until we're 'singing from the same hymn sheet', as it were, and thus you're using a DL-103SA and a Time Step PSU (on your Techie), with the Jelco, it's impossible for me to relate to what you're hearing, and so I can't really offer much useful advice... I'm glad that the Jelco seems to have improved, though!
However, my view on P-clips is that they'd make bugger all difference to the Techie. It's the LP12's bouncy suspension which makes the P-clip thing significant, as is the case with regard to the tightness of bolts, etc, unless Dave has anything different to add in that respect.
No offence, but it's leaving behind that sort of obsessive set-up tweakery which is one of the benefits of owning a good direct-drive turntable. Once it's set-up, one forgets all about that stuff and just gets on with spinning records! :gig:
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
26-11-2009, 06:27
It is possible that the Tecnoarm thrives more with the Ortofons, but that's not what I was asking. Nor was I talking about obsessive tweakery.
I have a feeling that the tightness of the pillar grub screw is quite critical, and I hoped that you would have something constructive to say on that point. I am sure Dave will.
As for DD decks being free of the need for tweakery, are you saying that they are free from the requirement for careful setup?
'Course they have to be set up properly, especially in terms of careful isolation - or Isonoe style feet - but as Marco says, the obsession in LP12 setup shouldn't ever arise.
Surely the pillar nuts should be firmly tight - enough to lock it in place - not to bearing crushing tightness as we did in our ignorance of materials technology back then..
Hi Shuggs,
It is possible that the Tecnoarm thrives more with the Ortofons, but that's not what I was asking. Nor was I talking about obsessive tweakery.
There's no need to go on the defensive and get snotty - I was only offering my opinion. The fact that the Jelco is not working as well to your tastes as the Tecnoarm but 'way better than when you first tried it, when you disliked it quite intensively', could be due to a lack of synergy with your cartridge choice. That's all I meant.
Tonearms do not perform optimally with every cartridge. I suspect that the Jelco 750 is most at home with low-compliance MCs, such as the DL-103, SPU, or Deccas; none of which you currently own. I've also heard it perform very well with an OC-9.
I have a feeling that the tightness of the pillar grub screw is quite critical, and I hoped that you would have something constructive to say on that point. I am sure Dave will.
What I said was intended to be constructive, but perhaps it's not what you wanted to hear? Dave fitted my tonearm, and it's performed superbly from day one on my deck, so I've had no reason to fiddle with it. The pillar grub screw though, IMO, is best not over-tightened as this can sometimes make the sound a little 'etched' and hard.
As for DD decks being free of the need for tweakery, are you saying that they are free from the requirement for careful setup?
Nope; merely what's Dave (DSJR) has said above, and what I alluded to earlier:
but as Marco says, the obsession in LP12 setup shouldn't ever arise.
We're all trying to help here, you know, but the unfortunate fact is if we haven't experienced the problems you're encountering, then it's difficult to advise on what to do about them :)
Marco.
Beobloke
26-11-2009, 09:33
The problem here may be that the Tecnoarm has quite a different sonic character to the Jelco, with the latter being a great deal smoother. I have also found that the Tecnoarm is very sensitive to the cartridges that are used with it - for example, a 2M Black sounded superb in it, but a Rondo Bronze sounded truly dreadful!
I have not tried a Kontrapunkt in the Jelco, although I do have one now, so this is probably a worthwhile task for a future fiddling session, but I found the 2M black to work well in it.
As to the tightness of the bolts, simply do them up firmly - there's no need to attempt to strip the thread but equally I am not a fan of the 'leave everything loose' method espoused by the likes of Origin Live. A sensible compromise between the two is required.
Your comment regarding the Ortofons being best set up perfectly level is interesting. When Noel Keywood was testing the Dr. Feickert Adjust + cartridge setup software whilst I was at Hi-Fi World full time, he and I spent about a month or so putting every cartridge we could get our hands on through it! The only manufacturer that showed consistently good results for correct SRA and correctly aligned coils were Ortofon. I'll always remember one cartridge (in the +£1500 price bracket!) that needed nearly 3 degrees of headshell rotation in order to give equal distortion figures on each channel! :doh:
Hi Adam,
The problem here may be that the Tecnoarm has quite a different sonic character to the Jelco, with the latter being a great deal smoother.
I completely agree. Shuggs obviously likes the Tecnoarm, but it's not my cup of tea.
I honestly feel that for him to ever really resolve his issues with the Jelco (bearing in mind that this has been an on-going saga for some time), he's either going to have to swap the arm for something which better suits his Kontrapunkt B, or obtain a cartridge which better suits the Jelco.
Otherwise, I feel that sadly Shuggs will just continue going round in circles...
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
26-11-2009, 10:06
Enough!
Did I say that there was a problem? No! I said that there was a difference, with the Tecnoarm being more to my tastes. My preference is exactly that - nothing absolute, nor something that someone else would find to their tastes. I repeat - both arms are performing well, with the same cartridges, with one being on balance more to my tastes.
Marco - I was not getting snotty, but here goes, I am now. The subtext of your replies appears to be "you must have exactly what I have - everything else is wrong - you are wrong". That is not helpful and does not answer what I thought was a simple question about setup. At least you did offer this:
The pillar grub screw though, IMO, is best not over-tightened as this can sometimes make the sound a little 'etched' and hard.
As to the tightness of the bolts, simply do them up firmly - there's no need to attempt to strip the thread but equally I am not a fan of the 'leave everything loose' method espoused by the likes of Origin Live. A sensible compromise between the two is required.
Thank you both - that's what my experience tells me so far, but if anyone else can chip in and provide some further wisdom, I'd be very grateful.
We're all trying to help here, you know, but the unfortunate fact is if we haven't experienced the problems you're encountering, then it's difficult to advise on what to do about them
I repeat - there is no problem. Any two bits of equipment will show differences, and these tonearms are no exception.
Marco - I was not getting snotty, but here goes, I am now. The subtext of your replies appears to be "you must have exactly what I have - everything else is wrong - you are wrong". That is not helpful and does not answer what I thought was a simple question about setup.
Sorry, that's complete nonsense, Shuggie, and not my intention at all.
What I'm getting at here is this:
I'm pleased to say that my Jelco SA-750D is now working pretty well on the Technics, with either Ortofon Kontrapunkt B or 2M Black cartridges. Not as well, to my tastes, as the Tecnoarm, but way better than when I first tried it, when I disliked it quite intensively. I'm not sure what's changed in the intervening period. My ears, probably!
You stated that you've done nothing to the arm which could account for its significant change in presentation, and yet it's now, to quote you: "working pretty well on the Technics". As I'm sure you'll agree, that's quite a major departure from originally disliking it "quite intensively", yes?
Therefore, as there is nothing to "intensively dislike" ("intensively" being the key word here) about the Jelco (it's basically a very smooth, refined performer when optimally set-up and partnered), whatever mismatch/set-up problem, or I don't know what, that originally caused you to "intensively dislike" it, was either imagined or still exists, because as you state, nothing in terms of set-up has changed since then, yet it is now "working pretty well on the Technics".
Do you see what I'm getting at here?
I'm simply speculating as to what might be going on, and trying to offer a solution, which you're interpreting in completely the wrong way, as shown by the language used which I've highlighted above in the first quote.
If you don't understand where I'm coming from, and are going to take things the wrong way, then it's best that I leave you to it in order to prevent any further misunderstanding or ill-feeling.
Marco.
Hi Shuggie
I have the same issues. I don't seem to be able to set this arm up properly on my SL1210. It works fine with my DL-110 and AT95E, but I cannot get my Goldring 1042 to work. I experience severe distortion! Perhaps the Goldring is too compliant? Does anybody have experience with the 1042 and 750D?
Shuggie, can you let me know what protractor you used to set up? I've tried both the Technics Baerwald arc protractor and the Baerwald stupid protractor on VE. Also used a spirit level to set VTA and the Shure VTF gauge.
Does anybody know of a good dealer in London who can help, I am getting desperate!
The other possibility is that I somehow managed to damage the 1042, is there any place I can send it to, to be checked out?
Chivas
The 1042 should work at 1.7 grammes or so. is the distortion on both channels? On the left is too much bias and on the right it's too little. How about the damping this arm has? The 1042 should need much if any at all..
Can't help further. HiFi dave may be able to help, as the TA arm was the same or similar I believe...
Ammonite Audio
27-11-2009, 07:19
Hi Shuggie
I have the same issues. I don't seem to be able to set this arm up properly on my SL1210. It works fine with my DL-110 and AT95E, but I cannot get my Goldring 1042 to work.
Hi Chivas
Please understand that I don't have any issue with the Jelco - I only wish to get the very best from it. I like what it is doing on the Technics, and that is where it is staying (my Tecnoarm will find a permanent home on my old Kenwood once the Pete Riggle VTAF is fitted).
That aside,
I experience severe distortion! Perhaps the Goldring is too compliant? Does anybody have experience with the 1042 and 750D?
Sorry - I can't help you there.
Shuggie, can you let me know what protractor you used to set up? I've tried both the Technics Baerwald arc protractor and the Baerwald stupid protractor on VE. Also used a spirit level to set VTA and the Shure VTF gauge.
I use the Clearaudio alignment jig, set to IEC Standard alignment. IIRC Dave Cawley also recommends this gadget. It's very expensive, but it does take all of the guesswork out of alignment.
http://www.clearaudio.de/img/produkte/z_i_drehtonarmiec.jpg
If you are using a good spirit level to set VTA and azimuth and still get distortion, then note what Adam said earlier. It may be that your cartridge requires some manual correction in its alignment:
Your comment regarding the Ortofons being best set up perfectly level is interesting. When Noel Keywood was testing the Dr. Feickert Adjust + cartridge setup software whilst I was at Hi-Fi World full time, he and I spent about a month or so putting every cartridge we could get our hands on through it! The only manufacturer that showed consistently good results for correct SRA and correctly aligned coils were Ortofon. I'll always remember one cartridge (in the +£1500 price bracket!) that needed nearly 3 degrees of headshell rotation in order to give equal distortion figures on each channel!
Reply With Quote
Does anybody know of a good dealer in London who can help, I am getting desperate!
The other possibility is that I somehow managed to damage the 1042, is there any place I can send it to, to be checked out?
Chivas
I have no experience of London dealers, but Walrus is always praised. Do you have another cartridge to try in the Jelco? [edit - I see that you do] You could always get a new stylus for the Goldring.
I hope all that helps.
Personally, I wouldn't bother with the 1042 these days, it's too ploddy IMO with a one-note treble (cymbal crashes etc) and styli cost a fortune.
Can you save for a Sumiko Blue Point Special? The skeletal design needs some care in setup and use (inner alignment point 60mm from centre of record on Linn length arms IIRC), but the sound is energetic, powerful and with an almost Decca like sense of "being there......." See if you can find a good used one...
Another thumbs up for the BPS, great sound, punchy, detailed, dynamic, toe-tapping tunefulness abounds. It's a physically large and heavy cartridge and definitely not to be fitted by those of a nervous disposition due to its nakedness and it's not the greatest tracker (typical of the breed, I believe) but the best bit is the price, it's the same now as it was when I got mine in the late 90's!
If your arm can actually accommodate the thing then go for it, you wont be disappointed.
Cheers
Primalsea
27-11-2009, 10:27
Hi Shuggie,
I know its a simple thing but often overlooked. Have you checked the compatibility of your cartridge with your arm to see where the resonance will be?
IMO the next major issue is getting the cartridge body parallel with the record ie VTA.
Ammonite Audio
27-11-2009, 10:39
Hi Shuggie,
I know its a simple thing but often overlooked. Have you checked the compatibility of your cartridge with your arm to see where the resonance will be?
Why? As I've been at pains to point out, I'm happy with the results that I have from the Jelco with my Ortofons. This thread was initiated solely to trawl for experiences and setup tips that might enable me to further optimise the arm's performance. I do not believe that there is any incompatibility between it and my Ortofon cartridges.
IMO the next major issue is getting the cartridge body parallel with the record ie VTA.
Quite. As I have stated, Audio Origami's headshell spirit levels make this a very easy process. Bang on level works for Ortofons, but read what Adam (Beobloke) wrote on that subject:
Your comment regarding the Ortofons being best set up perfectly level is interesting. When Noel Keywood was testing the Dr. Feickert Adjust + cartridge setup software whilst I was at Hi-Fi World full time, he and I spent about a month or so putting every cartridge we could get our hands on through it! The only manufacturer that showed consistently good results for correct SRA and correctly aligned coils were Ortofon. I'll always remember one cartridge (in the +£1500 price bracket!) that needed nearly 3 degrees of headshell rotation in order to give equal distortion figures on each channel!
Will the Sumiko Blue Point Special work well with the 750d? How does it compare to the Dynavector 10x5 which was the other cartridge I was considering.
The 10XV is expensive now, and the "safe" option, being as in real terms it's not hugely better (if at all) than a Denon DL110, which USED to cost the same............. The 10X has gone through its "versions" more to increase its price I understand (each time a "change" is negotiated, the price is as well, the DL110 has remained the same over its life, so the price has remained static apart from currency changes).
IMO, the BPS would be the better choice and the Jelco's extra mass with Sumiko headshell would definitely be an advantage in my view.
Primalsea
27-11-2009, 19:39
Why? As I've been at pains to point out, I'm happy with the results that I have from the Jelco with my Ortofons. This thread was initiated solely to trawl for experiences and setup tips that might enable me to further optimise the arm's performance. I do not believe that there is any incompatibility between it and my Ortofon cartridges.
Quite. As I have stated, Audio Origami's headshell spirit levels make this a very easy process. Bang on level works for Ortofons, but read what Adam (Beobloke) wrote on that subject:
Well that told me!:(
Take no notice, Paul. He's in a bad mood - I'm 'getting it', too!
Marco.
Well that told me!:(
Hey Paul, gimme a shout sometime about 'that thing' we were going to work on. I've got a few pointers. ;)
Another thumbs up for the BPS, great sound, punchy, detailed, dynamic, toe-tapping tunefulness abounds.
Cheers
That is what I liked about the 1042. It had just more detail and punch. It wasn't the most tonally refined cartridge I've ever heard, but to me it definitely had the toe-tapping effect! And all the instruments seemed just a bit bigger. Presentation was also a bit more forward than my others, which isn't necessarily a good thing, but didn't bother me either. So perhaps I will like the BPS then?
The 10XV is expensive now, and the "safe" option, being as in real terms it's not hugely better (if at all) than a Denon DL110,
I already have the DL110, so I guess it is not really worth looking at the 10X5 then..?
I already have the DL110, so I guess it is not really worth looking at the 10X5 then..?
The 10XV is fine for Linn/Naim dealers wanting their clients on the moving coil ladder, culminating in the Akiva.. Just my view, of course, but the 10XV or DV20 series don't offer much if anything over the best MM's out there (top Ortofon, AT150MLx etc), although the 20 series has plenty of bass...
The BPS was always on a higher plane to the 10X and 20 series models IMO, the ONLY thing really against it being its skeletal build. Hifi dave told me he often ordered two at a time, the second one being for the returned broken first one ;) When I got to sell them, I was luckier
Just my opinions above. The DL110 is an absolute bargain, if not as detailed perhaps as an AT440MLa or quite as well tracking as a DL160 perhaps.
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