View Full Version : Monitor Audio R252
as per title,what are peeps thoughts on these? any good? they look to be like ms pageant 2's
The R352 is a very nice speaker and I would hazard a guess that the R252 is just a less bass capable version.
Arkless Electronics
26-07-2016, 18:45
I had an early pair of these and they could cut glass from 10 yards away! I believe later ones had a crossover mod to sort this but I'm not sure on that...
walpurgis
26-07-2016, 18:58
The R852 is the compact to go for. Very nice sounding speaker.
How do they compare to the good ole Pageant 2's Geoff,im looking for a stop gap whilst i recap my Dittons,If they are not miles better i use the Pageants.
walpurgis
14-01-2017, 10:19
How do they compare to the good ole Pageant 2's Geoff,im looking for a stop gap whilst i recap my Dittons,If they are not miles better i use the Pageants.
As nice as the Pageants can be, the R852 are definitely a cut above. They have sealed cabinets, so no boom problems or room placement issues. Wouldn't mind a pair myself as a back up.
Cheers matey, i can get a pair locally for a ton with boxes and stands,worth it?
walpurgis
14-01-2017, 10:31
I'd say so Jamie. They are hard speakers to find and rather nice.
I bet they are in good nick if the boxes have been kept. That's usually a sign of a careful owner and the stands should save you maybe £30 or more finding something suitable. Sounds like a good deal.
I'd be interested on your opinion of them if you get them.
right thats good enough for me! :)
My first real hifi speakers. Pretty gentle but also musical, engaging and involving, I've had 252, 352, 652 and 852. Only the 652 didn't hit the spot (a bit strangled). People rave about JPWs but IMO the MA speakers are forgotten gems and ripe for a bit of modding.
Arkless Electronics
14-01-2017, 14:24
My first real hifi speakers. Pretty gentle but also musical, engaging and involving, I've had 252, 352, 652 and 852. Only the 652 didn't hit the spot (a bit strangled). People rave about JPWs but IMO the MA speakers are forgotten gems and ripe for a bit of modding.
The ones I had were the total opposite! So bright I actually ended up putting foam in front of the tweeters to make them usable....
The ones I had were the total opposite! So bright I actually ended up putting foam in front of the tweeters to make them usable....
Mine were bought new in 1987 so i guess later models than yours. I compared then to JPW P1 (similar tonal balance but not as musical) and Heybrok HB1 (almost took my fillings out). My 252s never played a hard or harsh noise in 5 years, so clearly some key changes must have been made for a potential buyer to bear in mind.
If I was looking for a speaker to mod these days, I'd go for the 352 which is insanely good value 2nd hand. That's actually set me thinking......
Ive just picked them up,nice! sweet as Geoff they are bloody good little speakers,next level as you say above the dear old pageants,cleaner in sound. The tweeter is very good, but not like the other models mentioned here,they are not bright.Ive just plonked them down for initial listening,they could do with a bit more bass,but then im used to listening to Ditton 66's! :)
https://s26.postimg.org/uov0jy5ah/IMG_1125_1.jpg
walpurgis
14-01-2017, 19:01
Try them closer to the back wall if you can. That should bring up the bass a bit. Yes, they do have a nice tweeter. They're quite refined sounding speakers.
will do,
well i couldn't resist taking out a woofer for a look inside,very simple crossover,just 1 3.3uf cap.
Not altogether surprising as they were designed by Robin Marshall who did the same with the ES14.
yes, keep it simple :) i wonder what type that cap is :eyebrows:
https://s26.postimg.org/q9h6sfia1/IMG_1131_1.jpg
walpurgis
15-01-2017, 10:42
Poly film type I think. Probably fine.
will do,
well i couldn't resist taking out a woofer for a look inside,very simple crossover,just 1 3.3uf cap.
Looks like there is an inductor on the bass as well.
walpurgis
15-01-2017, 20:18
What's the news on these Jamie, have you done more listening?
yes i have,im listening to them now,they are better nearer the wall as you suggested,ive got them on top of my mana bases,which isnt ideal and im not moving them as they are a pain to set up again lol
the original MA stands are a bit flimsy and they'd probably benefit from some open framed metal ones .toe in doesn't have a great effect on them so i think im right in saying the off axis listening is good? if thats the term?
As a stop gap till the dittons are done though im very happy.
im really impressed with them for their size,it makes me want to try a pair of Epos ES14's now!
I know this speaker well, Jamie. I have the R300-MD which is similar. Nice.
http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/567
Slight surprise the R852 is a mere 3.3uF cap on the tweeter. About 1.6mH bass coil. Positive polarity on the crossover.
I think this is the tweeter. http://www.parts-express.com/peerless-by-tymphany-d19td-05-3-4-poly-dome-tweeter--264-500
It's ferrofluid, and if it's like mine, it has dried out and reduced treble output. The tweeter should unclip easily enough, just keep things lined up when you pull the voicecoil from the gap. You can buy a syringe of new ferrofluid from Blue Aran near Southampton for about £10. Enough for 5 tweeters.
I've done lots of crossover work on this speaker. It's rewarding. Very good bass unit by Elac, IIRC.
Easy enough.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/C17_II.htm
Once you've disassembled, you can clean out the old stuff with WD40 and a blotter.
Dry it, then fill 90% of the gap with new fluid, and when you replace the voicecoil, it will fill the deficiency, if you follow.
I didn't appreciate the R852 is more Epos like in build. Is that a 8" polycone?
A lot of people weren't wildly keen on the Epos sound. The Epos bass was an expensive underhung voicecoil. But you get what you get with simple filters.
Me, I just rebuild good old drivers with more complex filters. Which have a cleaner sound IMO.
Thanks for the link, what holds the voice coil down? Glue? If so what glue should I use to re stick it .
no im home from work ive done a bit of research and watched a few video clips of it being done,it seems straight forward enough,ive ordered some ferrofluid so will crack on with it at the weekend.
thanks for the tips steve :)
the woofer by the way is 8inch from surround to surround.im not sure what its made off.
Good news and bad news. :)
I've seen enough in the R952MD review to say these are likely ferrofluid tweeters. Dried up ferrofluid pretty much stops the tweeter working. The oil evaporates with heat after about 20 years, leaving oxide sludge.
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/188mon/index.html (http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/188mon/index.html#Ft3jUJvcqqHfbumg.97)
But you will probably have to unsolder the voicecoil to take it out. Morel is the same. Vifa and SEAS 19mm just lift off.
All that needed to be done was to remove the tweeter faceplate, unsolder the connections, remove the old assembly and drop in the new one, the voice-coil sliding into the magnetic gap. Locating pins on the magnet assembly engage with holes in the laminate holding the dome assembly, and the tolerances are close enough that the repaired tweeter should match the old one sonically.
The R852 and R952 are polycone designs AFAIK. R252 and R352 use 8" paper bass. These are fairly regular overhung voicecoils, unlike Epos. I'm not quite sure about the MD (metal dome) definition. Did they make soft dome versions?
Anyway, Jamie, that's what I know.
Hmm ok I will carefully take a look, the treble sounds very good so if it's a nightmare job I will leave them alone. I only bought these as a stop gap whilst I recap my dutton 66's .
Audio Al
18-01-2017, 06:15
Re capping a kit car :)
the ferrofluid arrived today,so after work i got too it.
i was pleasantly surprised to find i didn't have to desolder the voice coil,phew!
interestingly there was still quite a bit of the old fluid still present.
i very carefully lifted off the voice coil and cleaned out the old fluid and re-filled with the new,about 15 mins each tweeter.
happy days!
here's a vid showing my sausage fingers in action! :)
THE BEST BIT IS THEY STILL BLOODY WORK TOO!!
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/595/32368540116_714372ed85_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RjiegS)IMG_1166 (https://flic.kr/p/RjiegS) by jamie creighton (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145822004@N02/), on Flickr
Marvellous, Jamie.
Enjoyed watching that.
Give your tweeter a ferrofluid oil change! :eek:
I can only tell you my ferrofluid had turned to thick sludge like bovril in the SEAS 19TAF/G Monitor Audio tweeters. They weren't doing much.
http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=SONFF05&browsemode=manufacturer
This stuff is actually very hard to buy. £5 for 5 applications isn't bad.
Makes your tweeters tweetier. :lol:
cheers steve,
they do sound a bit better for doing it,treble seems a bit smoother. :)
You can make an interesting comparison of the effects of ferrofluid on tweeters with these two, otherwise identical, SEAS aluminium metal domes. Expand the frequency response and tab between the two. Ferrofluid tends to make tweeters recover quicker from overload and heat.
Without Ferrofluid: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57:h1147-06-27tbcg&catid=45:seas-prestige-tweeters&Itemid=462
With Ferrofluid: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69:h1212-06-27tbfcg&catid=45:seas-prestige-tweeters&Itemid=462
You can see the slight resonance issues in the supersonic range around 27kHz. CD really shouldn't produce any output above 18kHz, but amplifier stability may be affected into distortion. And, of course, there is that slightly zingy metal sound.
I want to show you a modelling project on first order versus higher order filters. IMO, you could actually modify your speakers into something resembling those very fine £2000 Harbeth designs, which also pay great attention to damping the cabinet resonances with stick-on rubbery pads and stuffing. The 7.5R and 0.68uF is called a Zobel network. It tends to tame a rising HF response and give the amp a better load. I'll let the images speak for themselves.
Components available at Wilmslow Audio mostly. http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/supersound-polypropylene-capacitors-68-c.asp
The reason we do higher order filters, is they keep drivers more in their comfort zone, so they go louder and play more complex music like classical with less distortion. Your speaker is a whole lotta fun, I'd guess, but you could take it higher. :)
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unfortunately steve that's a bit above my head,i can solder but wiring diagrams and theory are beyond me unless explained in layman's terms .
brian2957
22-01-2017, 09:04
I have a pair of Monitor Audio r852s Jamie and would like to try this . Unfortunately I can't get your video to work.
try this link Brian https://www.flickr.com/photos/145822004@N02/32368540116/
brian2957
22-01-2017, 10:12
Nope , not working mate . Just a black screen . It's probably at my side :)
no worries,theres a few vids on youtube plus the one steve posted. if you do it just be extremely careful removing and putting back the voice coil as the aluminum dome is paper thin.
brian2957
22-01-2017, 10:29
OK thanks Jamie , I'll have a look :)
As Jamie says, getting the fragile voicecoil out of the gap undamaged is the only tricky issue. You need to lift it out vertically.
Below is my old 3/4" Monitor Audio SEAS TAF/G: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45:h0414-08-19tafg&catid=25:seas-vintage-drivers&Itemid=366
Nice old cheapie, still available from Falcon Acoustics and Wilmslow Audio. Very flat FR and impedance, so easy to filter. Held together with three plastic clips. About £25? IDK.
19149 19148
Once the voicecoil goes back, it will displace some of the ferrofluid out of the magnet gap, so you only fill the (4mm?) gap to within a mm of the top.
Here's my current version of the Monitor Audio R300-MD. The 87dB SEAS is currently replaced by a 91dB Monacor HT-22 cone tweeter which has a quite vintage sort of sound. Crossover not unlike the third order I suggested as worth trying, but the resistors adjust loudness. The key convenience is something called tagstrip, which allows you to connect parts easily.
19150 19151
I started with more modest tweaks, just adding a 7.5R/0.68uF Zobel to the tweeter. I bought the bits at Maplin for about £6, which is OK for the odd part. It's become a hobby. :)
walpurgis
22-01-2017, 11:16
I hate ferrofluid.
brian2957
22-01-2017, 11:21
As Jamie says, getting the fragile voicecoil out of the gap undamaged is the only tricky issue. You need to lift it out vertically.
Below is my old 3/4" Monitor Audio SEAS TAF/G: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45:h0414-08-19tafg&catid=25:seas-vintage-drivers&Itemid=366
Nice old cheapie, still available from Falcon Acoustics and Wilmslow Audio. Very flat FR and impedance, so easy to filter. Held together with three plastic clips. About £25? IDK.
19149 19148
Once the voicecoil goes back, it will displace some of the ferrofluid out of the magnet gap, so you only fill the (4mm?) gap to within a mm of the top.
Here's my current version of the Monitor Audio R300-MD. The 87dB SEAS is currently replaced by a 91dB Monacor HT-22 cone tweeter which has a quite vintage sort of sound. Crossover not unlike the third order I suggested as worth trying, but the resistors adjust loudness. The key convenience is something called tagstrip, which allows you to connect parts easily.
19150 19151
I started with more modest tweaks, just adding a 7.5R/0.68uF Zobel to the tweeter. I bought the bits at Maplin for about £6, which is OK for the odd part. It's become a hobby. :)
Thanks Steve , I'll be seriously looking into this now I know it can be done .
I've discovered that speakers aren't rocket science, Brian. I do model circuits that are easily adjusted though. Then I can tune them by ear for loudness. Generally every ohm you add in front of a tweeter filter takes it down 1dB. So you can guess quite easily from the manufacturers tweeter loudness figure..
Yup, walpurgis, but you might as well say you hate automatic transmission in cars too. It's standard practise. :D
The theory says that the worst factors for distortion in speakers is cone excursion, because the coil isn't entirely linear in the gap, and mechanical losses in the cone and suspension which tend also to be non-linear.
Electrical filtering circuits are very linear, so maybe the better solution. TBH, I don't think ferrofluid can be perfect, but it does wick away heat and add a bit of damping to the pesky Fs resonance which is usually seen as a peak in impedance between 500Hz and 2kHz in tweeters.
walpurgis
22-01-2017, 11:53
Yup, walpurgis, but you might as well say you hate automatic transmission in cars too. It's standard practise. :D
I have a large collection of speaker drive units, mainly vintage stuff and I make a point of avoiding buying anything that uses ferrofluid. The stuff eventually dries out and gums things up and the response curves go out and the heat dissipation is affected and the tweeter can blow. Nasty!
Oh. And I tend not to buy automatic cars. :)
mercalia
13-02-2017, 16:38
I am glad this thread was started.
Hello I was directed to this thread from another forum. I thought I was the only one who has a pair of R852MDs. I got them with those steel Target 4 legged stands you used to be able to get, very heavy and solid. I have had them since new so thats a long time. I didnt know about the ferrofluid thing I thought the other forum was pulling my leg:lol: At the moment my pair seem ok as they still sound lively but I think I'll get some of the stuff any way in case. Might evaporation/deterioration of the fluid mean a roughening of the treble sound rather than a dulling? Compared to my newer Epos M5i they do seem that, less refined But I must say they seem to be very good at vocals, maybe better than the M5i. I wonder given my age whether it all matters as my hearing now not beyond about 11khz. I see there is "another" pair of the R852MD on Ebay at the same price as the previous contributor got his, also with stands.
yep i directed you :)
if your confident about doing it then i would have a go,if they sound fine then perhaps leave them as is,i did notice a small difference after doing them so for me it was worth it.
they are mine on ebay as i bought them as a stop gap whilst i recapped my ditton 66's,they are also listed £20 cheaper than what i paid for them,if they dont sell im happy to keep them as stand byes.
for there size they are really good speakers.
mercalia
14-02-2017, 13:49
yes. long time ago I replaced the voice coil of one of them - wasnt hard. didnt realise at the time there was ferro fluid in them. I think it is useful to have another pair of speakers not just as spares but also to judge the qualities of the ones you use as main. I swap mine out with the Epos M5i now and then to try and guage their differences and what is just my ears. I have been surprised how ones hearing fluctuates
on the back of how good these 852's are i really want to hear some epos es14's
Arkless Electronics
14-02-2017, 16:59
jamie123 can you clear your in-box please...
walpurgis
14-02-2017, 18:01
on the back of how good these 852's are i really want to hear some epos es14's
Funny thing. I was less impressed with the Epos.
There's only so much a small two way speaker can impress. ES14 were good, no question, but their greatness was much overstated.
mercalia
14-02-2017, 20:46
they are hardly small, neither are the R852MD, very big boxes compared to my really small Epos M5i. If you have small rooms thats all that will work? I am surprised you dont see many R852MD for sale 2nd hand, MA must have sold quite a few, or maybe they just get dumped or sold at car boat sales :( or owners just like them and keep them?
they are compared to my ditton 66's :D
Funny thing. I was less impressed with the Epos.
that does surprise me.
Lawrence001
05-05-2024, 22:24
I'd say so Jamie. They are hard speakers to find and rather nice.
I bet they are in good nick if the boxes have been kept. That's usually a sign of a careful owner and the stands should save you maybe £30 or more finding something suitable. Sounds like a good deal.
I'd be interested on your opinion of them if you get them.
I've just bought a pair of the 852/MDs Geoff. I used to have the R952/MDs (which I often wish I'd never sold) and always wondered how these sounded.
In a word, superb. Just very balanced and not hot or spitty at all on top as some say the metal domes are. Not uber detailed, which suits me as I find that distracting from the overall musical message. Sealed box too which I prefer.
All in all a very happy camper.
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