View Full Version : 1200GAE in Hi-Fi World
The Hi-Fi World web site has an article on the 1200GAE Evoke.
See: http://hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/30/827.html?showall=1
Regarding cogging they state the following:
"Which brings me to cogging. We encountered this after fitting a Mike New bearing to our Timestep Evo SL-1210 Mk2. It increased drag a little by being larger in diameter and lubricated by heavier oil, showing the old motor didn’t ‘enough in reserve’ to cope with the change. The cogging that appeared was at 6.6Hz (see our Feb 14 issue) but since it measured a very low 0.05% it was hardly a mechanical disaster and unlikely to have any major influence on sound quality. "
I can't find a copy of the article. Can a forum member with access to the Feb 2014 issue summarise the pre- and post- Mike New bearing data? I am curious to see what effect the added drag has on the motor performance.
The AoS world is amazingly silent on this - I don't subscribe to HiFi World but I will be buying this copy.
100% Analogue
Mike_New
25-07-2016, 00:58
The Hi-Fi World web site has an article on the 1200GAE Evoke.
See: http://hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/30/827.html?showall=1
Regarding cogging they state the following:
"Which brings me to cogging. We encountered this after fitting a Mike New bearing to our Timestep Evo SL-1210 Mk2. It increased drag a little by being larger in diameter and lubricated by heavier oil, showing the old motor didn’t ‘enough in reserve’ to cope with the change. The cogging that appeared was at 6.6Hz (see our Feb 14 issue) but since it measured a very low 0.05% it was hardly a mechanical disaster and unlikely to have any major influence on sound quality. "
I can't find a copy of the article. Can a forum member with access to the Feb 2014 issue summarise the pre- and post- Mike New bearing data? I am curious to see what effect the added drag has on the motor performance.
This quote surely has to be challenged.Unless they disected my Bearing they would not have known what bloody oil is used.
Simply because the vertical bearing sleeve is a syntered Oilite bearing which by it's very nature uses very light oil!!!!!!!!!
How does this work in the Hi-Fi Industry?
When you sent Hi-Fi World a bearing for review did they not ask you for technical details, and prior to publication did you not get a copy of the report to check for factual errors?
This quote surely has to be challenged.Unless they disected my Bearing they would not have known what bloody oil is used.
Simply because the vertical bearing sleeve is a syntered Oilite bearing which by it's very nature uses very light oil!!!!!!!!!
Mike_New
25-07-2016, 04:53
Hi A
I am afraid that perhaps you live in an idealistic world.
Firstly in this case the Bearing was supplied by a former dealer who would not have thought to provide anything. and certainly did not bother to
run-in the bearing before providing it to them.
Secondly magazine reviewers certainly do not operate in the way you imagine they do!!!
Wakefield Turntables
25-07-2016, 07:52
The AoS world is amazingly silent on this - I don't subscribe to HiFi World but I will be buying this copy.
100% Analogue
i stopped reading hifi leaflet years ago. It what it sounds like rather than how it's measures. I really don't care if the bearing causes cogging. So we can lubricate with a less viscous oil, job done. The 1210 used had a timestep PSU and had no internal power regs. Cogging may not occur on decks with these mods? The timestep PSU has never been compared directly to a PSU or any other PSU in the printed press so could it be the causative factor? I'm happy with the effects of the MN bearing in my deck, it produces a sound which makes me happy when I listen to it. Whilst I take a keen interest in measurements I've realised to just relax and trust my ears, measurements are interesting but not essential.
Wakefield Turntables
25-07-2016, 07:55
Secondly magazine reviewers certainly do not operate in the way you imagine they do!!!
I'm 100% sure that ALL supplier/reviewer relationship are purely business based.
I'm not sure i can hear cogging myself.... 0.05% or 0.022% is pretty small! Then again I only listen to direct drive turntables now.....
I'm sure belt drives have their own issues e.g. wow & flutter.....
Hifi World never measured a standard deck without mods as far as I know. They have only measured a Timestep bearing& Tilmestep PSU with SME arm modded deck, then later in 2014 they replaced the Timestep bearing mod with a Mike New Bearing......and reviewed it. Yes, The Timestep modified deck had a Timestep PSU mod but, as you say, did not have any more complicated PSU/ regulator mod.
Ammonite Audio
25-07-2016, 09:34
HiFi World's measurement results are only valid if we understand their methodology and the test equipment used. That 'identical component at 6.6Hz' might be on the test LP that they used and possibly nothing to do with either deck.
This highlights the problems with magazine technical tests in general, in that journalists will only assess/measure those parameters which they can measure and not necessarily what they would like to measure, given the resources. I like to think that basic tests like those from HiFi World are useful to identify stuff that's poorly designed or faulty, but are certainly not definitive. PaulR's polar speed plots over at PFM told us a great deal more about various turntables' speed stability than any magazine test ever did.
I would also be interested in how precisely they achieved this measurement. But to be fair to them they did make it clear that 0.022% is very low indeed. It's also interesting that this should be present in the new version of the deck.
100% Analogue
Mike_New
25-07-2016, 10:26
Or maybe on their test LP!!!!!!!!!!!
It could indeed be an artefact of a test LP used. I recently participated in some high resolution measurement of the flutter of my own turntable - the motor artefacts of the cutting lathe were clearly presented in the measured output - the pattern precisely matched the cutting lathe (a known quantity) and did not correspond to the motor I use.
100% Analogue
I can't find a copy of the article. Can a forum member with access to the Feb 2014 issue summarise the pre- and post- Mike New bearing data? I am curious to see what effect the added drag has on the motor performance.
Well I've downloaded a copy of HiFi World Feb 2014 and can't see any mention of Mike's bearing, the Technics 1200/1210 or any bearing data :(.
100% Analogue
I think it was actually July 2011!
Oh, could be January 2014 - as far as I can see that is when modified Technics decks were reviewed. I'm off to email Hi-Fi World for my money back now - useless bunch!
100% Analogue
If it is way back in 2011 I probably have that issue. But it won't have any sort of review of the new Technics 1200GAE as it wasn't even out back then.
More info needed on this I think.
No, that old review is of the Timestep mod on the old 1200/1210, back when Dave Cawley did Mike New's bearing - they must have done some measurements then. The review of the new deck is in next months edition.
100% Analogue
Thinking about it HFW have always measured the kit they review but I cant recall them ever doing it for the turntables.
I wrote to Hi-Fi World asking about the article on the Mike New bearing, no response yet. Has anyone been able to track down the issue in which the article appeared?
I also wrote to Hi-Fi World and received a prompt and very curtious response (thank you Noel). Hopefully I should have the right copy soon (am having some iPad issues) and will confirm if it is indeed the correct edition :).
Not necessarily idealistic (not that there's anything wrong in being idealistic), merely unaware of how things work over on the other side of the pond.
I know a couple of writers for the underground press here in NY City and when writing articles they certainly operate differently.
Hi A
I am afraid that perhaps you live in an idealistic world.
Firstly in this case the Bearing was supplied by a former dealer who would not have thought to provide anything. and certainly did not bother to
run-in the bearing before providing it to them.
Secondly magazine reviewers certainly do not operate in the way you imagine they do!!!
I was able to find covers here: http://flickread.com/edition/hifi2014/
Can you look for the July 2011 issue?
If it is way back in 2011 I probably have that issue. But it won't have any sort of review of the new Technics 1200GAE as it wasn't even out back then.
More info needed on this I think.
Sure I'll have a look - 2011 was after I stopped buying it every month but I still have some issues from around that time. Is there any specific info that you need?
The cover - it is a small image on my screen - seems to show a modified SL 1200. Perhaps this issue has the article we are discussing?
Just had a quick look and found the April 2011 edition that has a review of the Origin Live modded SL1200.
Seems I was still buying HFW then so I might have the July but I just got in from work and badly need beer and a sit down. I'll have a another look later.
When you have a moment would you mind posting a summary of th OL review here?
TIA.
Just had a quick look and found the April 2011 edition that has a review of the Origin Live modded SL1200.
Seems I was still buying HFW then so I might have the July but I just got in from work and badly need beer and a sit down. I'll have a another look later.
Origin Live upgrade summary
'Ultra' power supply with additional transformer upgrade (£660) - replacement rubber feet (£40), two OL mats to 'sandwich' the stock mat (£40) - Origin Live Encounter tonearm (£1345) - a number of different cartridges are used in the review incl the OL 'Aladin' which is an MM.
Sound:
Mozart is good but there is a bit of euphonic bass bloat, good drive and conviction.
Britten: Bit of graininess, violin section a bit 'pinched' compared to a Notts Analogue Hyperspace (more expensive as donor deck only cost £90). Doesn't disgrace itself, though. (You'd hope not: it is still a £2K TT excluding cart!)
Mahler: Very good, edge of the seat stuff.
He doesn't actually try it with any proper music, just classical...
Conclusion:
Power supply upgrade makes a huge difference, 'taste of the high end at rock bottom price.'
There's some technical measurements too if you want them.
Spectral Morn
29-07-2016, 19:31
Replacing the OL feet with Isonoes cures many of the problems reported in this review. Taking the OL mat and swapping it for an Oyaide or Funk takes it out of there being any issues at the price point.
Origin Live upgrade summary
There's some technical measurements too if you want them.
Yes please, when you have a moment to spare. Who wrote the review?
Review is by Rafael Todes (which explains the 'classical only' nature of it as I think he's a classical musician)
Measurements:
Speed accuracy: +0.1%
Wow and Flutter: 0.078%
W&F IEC weighted: 0.047%
Almost as good as a cd player! ;)
Nice but not spectacular numbers, not in the SME class. Let's see how the new one measures.
Thanks again for posting.
"He doesn't actually try it with any proper music, just classical..." :lol:
Mike_New
01-08-2016, 23:24
Don't worry about it,
IMO the fabulously new 1200GAE is nothing more than the original SL1200 MK4-6 but fitted with
a pancake direct drive motor. This together with modern custom specific ICs and a switched PS, will have reduced the production cost
by a considerable amount. Which is what it is all about.
If they were seriously intent on producing a quality TT for the music connoisseur, they would have equipped it with an external
power supply and a substantial bearing. And dispensed with the speed adjust!!
Also a more easily adapted arm support facility could have been provided for those requiring to fit different higher quality tone arms.
Now don't all rape me at once! I am sure that the new direct drive motor is superior to the old ferrite core type.
For one thing the dual pancake design where the stator coils are sandwiched between two multi pole rotating magnet plates would also have the effect
of balancing these forces such that there would be a very low vertical force on the bearing.
Also if the poles on the two plates were staggered then this could have the effect of doubling the effective pole configuration.
providing even smoother rotation.
Apart from these obvious improvements very little else is offered in the way of earth shattering innovation.
The platter is virtually the same very thin re-inforced die casting which is still bell shaped! but now fitted with a thin brass plate.
However comparing apples with apples I am sure that the sonic value of this model could be marginally higher that the original SL1200
although I am not sure what any so-called measurements are going to show if any.
The ear test is the only way.
Did you ever get the correct issue?
I also wrote to Hi-Fi World and received a prompt and very curtious response (thank you Noel). Hopefully I should have the right copy soon (am having some iPad issues) and will confirm if it is indeed the correct edition :).
Now don't all rape me at once!
Not the best choice of words you ever been affected by rape
Mike_New
10-08-2016, 22:31
It was meant in a light hearted way, however I apologise to all if it offends you
OK an update, the Timestep Evo mods are discussed on the June 2011 issue of HiFi World.
I bought the on-line edition - 4 US pesos worth - using my iPad. The download did not go smoothly, I had to try 3-4 times to get the whole issue, the first few attempts were many pages short. On the iPad a HiFi World app needs to be installed, then purchases are made via this app. It appears that articles can only be read on one device within this app only; I could not find a way to transfer the file to another computer, nor could I print it. I have digital copies of other magazines, they come as pdfs and are so much easier to use.
The review is written by one R. Todes, is that a real name? Classical music is used to evaluate sonics. Overall he likes the modified 1200, and comments that the modded unit does not have the mid band thinness of the original. How much of that is due to the motor and bearing mods and how much is due to the arm and cartridge - SME 309 + AT 33 - is not clear. He likes it overall but the price as tested is very high, about GBP 3700. Compared to the OL modded version the Evo has better bass and a more rounded sound, but Todes felt that the arm on the OL modded deck gave it better dynamics.
Rumble was not measured. WHY NOT?!!!! Speed accuracy was perfect. W&F were 0.065%, not particularly low. The 0.55Hz variations were ascribed to the test disc. The turntable was liked very much,both subjectively and objectively and rated 5 at globes.
The Mike New bearing was not mentioned by name. The article does say that the bespoke bearing has twice the surface area of the original, runs on a silicon nitride ball resting on a PFTE pad and feels 'substantial' to spin around with the fingers.
After reading this review the new 1200GAE, US $ 4k unmodded, almost looks like good value in comparison since its intrinsic technical performance is so much better.
P.S:- The reviewer felt that the bass on the modded 1200 had more 'impact' than his belt drive Fletcher Audio Omega 0.5.
Beobloke
15-08-2016, 11:54
The review is written by one R. Todes, is that a real name? Classical music is used to evaluate sonics.
Real name; real person and a thoroughly nice chap IMHO. As you'll see from this link, there's a reason why he uses lots of classical music for his reviews! - https://www.ram.ac.uk/about-us/staff/rafael-todes
Thanks Beobloke. I have no problem with the choice of music used to review gear. In fact, when recorded properly classical music has a wider dynamic range and bandwidth than synthetic Pop. I just mentioned it for the record. My comment was not intended to be a complaint.
Real name; real person and a thoroughly nice chap IMHO. As you'll see from this link, there's a reason why he uses lots of classical music for his reviews! - https://www.ram.ac.uk/about-us/staff/rafael-todes
P.s:- Can you comment on why HiFi world does not measure rumble? They certainly have the equipment to do so.
OK, found the review posted on line at http://www.soundhifi.com/images/evo.pdf
Did not find it earlier when doing a google search. Hate to spend pesos unnecessarily:mad:.
Floyddroid
16-08-2016, 15:54
I have every copy of hifi world from the first edition to the most recent
Like most audio mags, Hi-Fi World is not IMO as good a read as it once was.
I've got all of them from late '92 through to some time in 2006, and a fair few after that. I think I have all the DIY supplements too.
It was at its best when it first started. Loads to read. Then it gradually got worse until it almost became like What Hi*Fi was in the late '80s with crappy half page reviews and loads of page space taken up with minimal content. Then it improved a lot when David Price came back. Only problem was the reviews were mostly very long and very dull. No-one wants to read a half page of regurgitated manufacture blurb stuck in just to fill up the word count.
It was its best when there was a fair DIY content. I buy it occasionally, as I do others: HFN, National Geographic, Mojo, and various photography mags.
I 'placed an order with my newsagent' for HFW some years back when I got fed up of having to go 2 towns over to get it from WH Smiths. I used to use it as an excuse to go to Burger King but then they closed the Burger King. Anyway I go in one day to find the bloke reading my HFW. I say 'I see my magazine has arrived', and, unaware of any side to my comment he replies 'Yes I've been reading it. I don't understand a word of it.'
prestonchipfryer
16-08-2016, 18:52
I took a glance through HFW in WH Smith's today. Looks and reads pretty much the same as I remember. Must be four years plus since I've bought it. Don't think I'll be buying anytime soon. :)
Floyddroid
16-08-2016, 19:33
Like most audio mags, Hi-Fi World is not IMO as good a read as it once was.
I would have to agree.
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