Using Valves for the first time - Recommendations/Advice sought

[Simon_LDT]

I've never used valve equipment before but I'm very tempted to dip my toes in and wondered if anyone had some advice and/or recommendations for someone like me who has never used any before.

I'm looking for clear, dynamic detail, not too harsh, depth and separation and solid weight to the sound. I'm mostly happy with my current Arcam monos but their biggest downfall is a lack of weight/presence in the sound.

My current speakers are rated at 88db and 4-8ohm (although they operate nearer to 4 than 8) and have ribbon tweeters. They're XTZ 99.26MKii's.

Would prefer separate pre/power but open to suggestions. I've done some research but there is so much out there it's hard to figure out what I should be looking for. I figure a push/pull may be better suited...?

Haven't got much moolah at the moment so budget would only be around £500 (that could cover the power for now and can get a pre down the line). Used fine, but nothing too vintage that may require TLC early on.

[agk]

Well that's a kettle of fish right there Simon. You'll get plenty of opinions and some good advice for sure.
My preference in valve is the EL34, just has bags of everything for me and your required sound matches nicely in my opinion. A popular tube in rock circles but I found them great with everything.
As for a specific amp? The world is your oyster. Your budget is your first problem. Unless you luck out with a World Audio Design or WAD, maybe a KT88, you are stuck with Chinese made and those are a tad suspect by many reports.
I'd advise holding on a while longer and then brace yourself because good valve action is the best.

[agk]

I wouldn't worry about 88db, that's plenty if the amp has guts. I ran Linn Kan mk1's (they like some juice) with maybe twenty watts a side and blew the roof off.

[walpurgis]

good valve action is the best.

Hmm. Maybe. Maybe not! :)

[agk]

:popcorn:

[Dauntless]

I've never used valve equipment before but I'm very tempted to dip my toes in and wondered if anyone had some advice and/or recommendations for someone like me who has never used any before.

I'm looking for clear, dynamic detail, not too harsh, depth and separation and solid weight to the sound. I'm mostly happy with my current Arcam monos but their biggest downfall is a lack of weight/presence in the sound.

My current speakers are rated at 88db and 4-8ohm (although they operate nearer to 4 than 8) and have ribbon tweeters. They're XTZ 99.26MKii's.

Would prefer separate pre/power but open to suggestions. I've done some research but there is so much out there it's hard to figure out what I should be looking for. I figure a push/pull may be better suited...?

Haven't got much moolah at the moment so budget would only be around £500 (that could cover the power for now and can get a pre down the line). Used fine, but nothing too vintage that may require TLC early on.

Hi Simon, I'd be careful with valves with the XTZ speakers, they take some driving and can soak up the power. I have a pair of 99.36's myself and they are more difficult than the 99.26. Why don't you try a valve pre amp?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Simon
A valve power amp will display higher power output into
higher impedance loudspeakers. The reasons behind this
are explained here: http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps_7.html

and summarised as:
Valve amp power is directly proportional to speaker Impedance
therefore power increases as the speaker Impedance rises.

Solid-state power is inversely proportional to speaker Impedance
therefore power decreases as the speaker Impedance rises.

Hence choosing a loudspeaker to suit a valve amp with this in mind
becomes much easier- however there are not as many speakers today
suiting valve amplification.

LS 3/5a and ESL57 with its weird impedance curve are two I can think of.

You need to study impedance curves for loudspeakers if proceeding with valve amps
where above 8 ohms - 15 ohms is preferable

Given your existing speakers are lowish impedance, a solid state design with low distortion
ie Quad 909, is probably a better choice.

As for pre amps making them as simple as possible as just an attenuator ie passive including LDR
will give you the best audio possible - less is (far) more, and then using dedicated
phono stages and /or DAC;s for sources.

Cheers / Chris

[Simon_LDT]

Well that's a kettle of fish right there Simon. You'll get plenty of opinions and some good advice for sure.
My preference in valve is the EL34, just has bags of everything for me and your required sound matches nicely in my opinion. A popular tube in rock circles but I found them great with everything.
As for a specific amp? The world is your oyster. Your budget is your first problem. Unless you luck out with a World Audio Design or WAD, maybe a KT88, you are stuck with Chinese made and those are a tad suspect by many reports.
I'd advise holding on a while longer and then brace yourself because good valve action is the best.

Yeah, budget is low unfortunately but I didn't want to dive head first in as I don't know if I'll like a valve amp over solid state so looking for something used but well regarded as vfm (I have been looking at WAD amps).

What would you recommend as a minimum budget to get something worthwhile?


Hi Simon, I'd be careful with valves with the XTZ speakers, they take some driving and can soak up the power. I have a pair of 99.36's myself and they are more difficult than the 99.26. Why don't you try a valve pre amp?

Would a valve pre-amp on it's own really give me a difference in sound? I know it can alter the sound somewhat but I always thought the biggest change would be in the amp.

[Firebottle]

Simon, my advice would be find the extra £100 and buy the Croft integrated for sale on here.

You won't go wrong even if you decide to move it on later.

:)

[Ammonite Audio]

And be prepared for higher electricity bills!

[Joe]

And make sure you have details of someone to service/repair the amp, and that you can afford the cost of replacement valves. Personally I went back to solid state because valve amps were a PITA, but I'm possibly in a minority here.

[tubehunter]

Please explain why higher bills.

[hifi_dave]

There is a Croft Integrated for sale on AOS at £600. You won't get better at the price.

[Ammonite Audio]

Please explain why higher bills.

The constant current draw with tube amps, equating to a few hundred watts of mains power consumption, on average, is huge compared with a tiny amount for a well-designed solid state amplifier. Of course, there are solid state amps that are grossly inefficient, too, but they are the exception rather than the norm. Such constant power draw amounts to a significant cost, bearing in mind that one kW of electricity costs no less than 10p nowadays.

Once I would not have cared about such practicalities - all that mattered was sound quality, but nowadays I am conscious not only of the financial cost of electricity but of the environmental implications of ever increasing power demand. Does that make me less of an audiophile? Not at all, since I know that astonishing musical performance can be had without massive heat and energy consumption.

[SteveTheShadow]

OK so valve amps are less efficient than commercial SS amps, but there are degrees.
For example I have built a pair of EL34 40wpc monoblocks that draw about 80W each from the wall socket, so, you're looking at 160W for the pair, so you are getting 6.25 hours for your 10p per unit.

Your bills will depend on the class of operation of your output stage and how it is configured. Leaving aside single ended triode amps, and looking at the more common, push-pull EL34 or KT88, if you insist on "pure" class A operation and even worse, triode operation, the power consumption per Watt of output at the speaker terminals, shoots through the roof and is in my view, completely unneccesary.

"Pure" Class A with push-pull amplification is extravagant, wasteful and of questionable benefit to sound quality. I have built both types of valve amp and TBH differences are marginal at best.

I don't even use Ultralinear anymore as I've found that straight pentode class AB with the emphasis firmly towards the class B end, operation, with regulated fixed bias and regulated screen grids (which is sadly neglected outside of the guitar amp field) gives the best bang for your buck, and the sound quality available is fabulous, with all the power a sane person would ever need.
So my advice would be to get something with class AB operation from within the Primaluna/Icon Audio range (other valve amps are available too) and forget about class A. Then just enjoy the music. Bills will be higher, but it doesn't need to be crippling. Depends on how far you want to push, for that infinitesimal degree of improvement class A might bring.

[walpurgis]

There is no such thing as a specific 'valve sound' or 'transistor sound'.

Whether a pre-amp or power amp, a well design amplifier should do just that. Amplify! Without adding any particular characteristics to the sound. You should not be able to identify what kind of amplifier is in use just by listening to it. If something sounds 'valvey' or 'transistory', that will be due to shortcomings in the item's abilities.

The same goes for load driving. No good amplifier should have trouble with high impedances or have its sound compromised by them. The story with low impedances is a little different.

[SteveTheShadow]

Indeed. The lousy sound of early transistor amps was due to crap application of feedback, coupled with crossover distortion, giving rise to the "transistor sound" and the woolly sound of old mainstream valve amps was down to inadequate power supplies and rubbish output transformers. The gap these days is almost non existent due to design improvements with both technologies.

My own particular reason for liking valve amps, is that I like building stuff, and learning about electronics.
Also, the fact that they glow in the dark, gives me a nice warm feeling inside. :)

[anthonyTD]

:)
There is no such thing as a specific 'valve sound' or 'transistor sound'.

Whether a pre-amp or power amp, a well design amplifier should do just that. Amplify! Without adding any particular characteristics to the sound. You should not be able to identify what kind of amplifier is in use just by listening to it. If something sounds 'valvey' or 'transistory', that will be due to shortcomings in the item's abilities.

The same goes for load driving. No good amplifier should have trouble with high impedances or have its sound compromised by them. The story with low impedances is a little different.

[Simon_LDT]

Thanks for all the replies and discussion so far. Seems I have a lot to learn. If I were to stay with SS or a hybrid (such as the croft) how would I better the weight and punch but without losing the detail the Arcams give? I'm a little lost on how power works too. What I mean by that is how watts translate into actual power into the speaker. I've read lots about how some amps measure high for wpc (say 180w into 8ohm, 2ch) but that some are weak and that an amp with ''real'' watts can out perofrm it, even if lower (say 2x50w into 8ohm, 2ch). I assume it's to do with current and how much it can deliver at peaks but I really don't know for sure.

[struth]

Much ofvit is to do with how good the power supply is so it can supply enough current, say into difficult loads at high volumes. If psu isnt beefy enough then it cant do it . In an average load you dont need all that much for normal listening. I can get more than enough with a few watts, but speakers are high efficiency.

[Arkless Electronics]

Thanks for all the replies and discussion so far. Seems I have a lot to learn. If I were to stay with SS or a hybrid (such as the croft) how would I better the weight and punch but without losing the detail the Arcams give? I'm a little lost on how power works too. What I mean by that is how watts translate into actual power into the speaker. I've read lots about how some amps measure high for wpc (say 180w into 8ohm, 2ch) but that some are weak and that an amp with ''real'' watts can out perofrm it, even if lower (say 2x50w into 8ohm, 2ch). I assume it's to do with current and how much it can deliver at peaks but I really don't know for sure.

Turn it up! Or use tone controls.... An amp shouldn't be a "tone control" itself... ie excess bass making it sound "weighty".

The main thing to remember about amp power is that you need 10 X the power to go twice as loud!

[Simon_LDT]

After reading all the replies and doing some thorough research over the past few days. I might be better off leaving this for the time being as it looks like Id ideally need new speakers too and it could become expensive quickly. I'll have to revisit the valve idea in the near future and maybe end up with a 2nd system.

In the meantime, what SS amp (or hybrid) could I use to fully reveal the true sound and potential of my speakers? (maybe this should be another thread though?)

Most likely 2nd hand and could up the budget if it meant selling off the P1's to help finance. Been looking at Sugden amps but I've been reading about inverted phase across all inputs/outputs which by the sounds of it is not a good thing... I've looked at Quad 909 too but many people seem to think they are a tad warm and a bit grainy.

[rdpx]

Croft Integrated on sale in private exhibitions?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Simon_LDT]

Croft Integrated on sale in private exhibitions?

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

Would that give me enough power into my speakers? I'm finding it hard to find full specs of the amp. I believe it's around 40w into 8ohm but with my speakers being a tougher load at 4ohm I'm not sure if it will drive them well enough. How would it compare to a Firebottle Air? (which I believe is around 90w into 8ohm and it drove my speakers really well).

[hifi_dave]

Croft is approx 55 wpc and will drive your speakers with no problem. If you have a large room and like to indulge in head-banging, you might like to look elsewhere.

[Simon_LDT]

Thanks Dave. I do listen to a lot of 80's heavy metal so it does get a bit loud at times! :lol:

[hifi_dave]

I listen to a lot of different music from a whisper to eye popping. My preference is Blues and Blues Rock at loud volumes and never had a problem with Croft.

[Firebottle]

The actual difference in 55W and 90W in loudness terms is next to bu**er all.

[DSJR]

Leftfield from me -

88db speakers, if small stand-mounts, will almost certainly trade bass for midrange efficiency. The previous poster who blew the roof off with Kans and a small valve amp was almost certainly soft clipping the amp like hell (valves are good at that) and the upper mid screech that all pre mk2 Kans exhibit was probably making it seem louder than it really was - in my experience of course.

Arcam power amps, especially the later ones and excluding the rather nasty Alpha 8P model, used to be refined and gentle, rather than lacking in balls and 'power' I remember. Are the speakers in phase - some can hear it but so many can't - ?

One final thing, ALL valve amps with transformer coupled outputs, will modify the response of the speakers they're connected to, to a greater or lesser extent and deep bass (sub-terranian on the very best valve amps) will be higher in distortion than current issue solid state devices. As proof, look at the average Stereophile reviews on valve amps to see what they do into a modern two-way speaker load. Vintage 15 ohm Tannoys and similar won't be as problematic, but it's still there, only to an almost inaudible extent.

What are the speakers and what size room do you have?

P.S. The Quad 606 from mk2 onwards (lightly bevelled top and bottom edges) had no grain at all and that on the mk1 disappeared after a couple of hours warm-up. They may need a cap overhaul by now though. The 707 was made difficult by the use of Speakon connectors and later 909's were made in China, sometimes with cheapo nasty local capacitors, which messed them up according to the info on the Dada website. The basic design of this amp is superb, with a big-hearted presentation able to drive 4 ohm loads with consummate ease and a friendly, involving sound which should totally lack grain if running right. All that prevents the Top End cachet this amp deserves is the very plain breeze-block appearance and relatively low cost. Today, the basic design still lives on and is quietly popular.

[DSJR]

class AB operation from within the Primaluna/Icon Audio range (other valve amps are available too) and forget about class A. Then just enjoy the music. Bills will be higher, but it doesn't need to be crippling. Depends on how far you want to push, for that infinitesimal degree of improvement class A might bring.




Granny sucking eggs Steve and I apologise, but Prima Luna is a no-no unless you specifically know the speaker combination, due to the reportedly very high output impedance of these amps, which do have a bad effect on the response of the speakers, especially if they're a more modern lower impedance design. The Icon amps I heard around £2k + (copper top plates) were very clear, musical and detailed, but were more like my memories of Graaf amps, where 'meat, weight and power' were not part of the equation, but delicate fine-detail was..

[Simon_LDT]

Leftfield from me -

88db speakers, if small stand-mounts, will almost certainly trade bass for midrange efficiency. The previous poster who blew the roof off with Kans and a small valve amp was almost certainly soft clipping the amp like hell (valves are good at that) and the upper mid screech that all pre mk2 Kans exhibit was probably making it seem louder than it really was - in my experience of course.

Arcam power amps, especially the later ones and excluding the rather nasty Alpha 8P model, used to be refined and gentle, rather than lacking in balls and 'power' I remember. Are the speakers in phase - some can hear it but so many can't - ?

One final thing, ALL valve amps with transformer coupled outputs, will modify the response of the speakers they're connected to, to a greater or lesser extent and deep bass (sub-terranian on the very best valve amps) will be higher in distortion than current issue solid state devices. As proof, look at the average Stereophile reviews on valve amps to see what they do into a modern two-way speaker load. Vintage 15 ohm Tannoys and similar won't be as problematic, but it's still there, only to an almost inaudible extent.

What are the speakers and what size room do you have?

P.S. The Quad 606 from mk2 onwards (lightly bevelled top and bottom edges) had no grain at all and that on the mk1 disappeared after a couple of hours warm-up. They may need a cap overhaul by now though. The 707 was made difficult by the use of Speakon connectors and later 909's were made in China, sometimes with cheapo nasty local capacitors, which messed them up according to the info on the Dada website. The basic design of this amp is superb, with a big-hearted presentation able to drive 4 ohm loads with consummate ease and a friendly, involving sound which should totally lack grain if running right. All that prevents the Top End cachet this amp deserves is the very plain breeze-block appearance and relatively low cost. Today, the basic design still lives on and is quietly popular.

Speakers are in-phase. There is no lack of bass from the Arcam but I have heard the speakers produce more with other amps. Whether or not that is adding any colouration or not I don't know. The Arcam has stunning detail though, some may say too analytical but for me I like that. I just would like a touch more oomph to the lower end.

My speakers are XTZ 99.26mkii's. They have ribbon tweeters so I was careful to not get a bright sounding amp, which is why I went for the Arcam for it's laid back, neutral presentation. I kind of wished I had tried an XTZ power amp before they stopped making them, just to see what difference there would be.