View Full Version : Caiman Mods
TheGreenManalishi
23-11-2009, 16:11
Ok, usual swift change of plan as i had the good fortune of a few quid coming my way.
Current Set Up-
Flac>Duet>Caiman>Novo plus PSU1 and HD650's
Now ive ordered a Solo Graham Slee (apparently Senn themselves use this amp on dems?), and due to my Great Dane puppy ive had to order some Russ Andrews cable for my HD650's (grrr).
So i need to make sure source is A1 etc, happy with my Caiman but on the advice of someone im sending it in to be modified (budget £150), but as i know absolutely bugger all about Opamps etc etc then i wondered if you guys could give me an idea what i should be asking for mods wise?
I use a Caiman based modded 7520 with a Solo SRGII as I have other sources too, sounds great:eyebrows: tbh I'd give the new stuff a good running in before even thinking of doing any mods, let things settle down and take it from there
Regarding op-amps, their down to personal taste with this dac, I'm currently using THS4032 but the chosen type used in the Caiman is also very good
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 19:25
happy with my Caiman but on the advice of someone im sending it in to be modified
So who is this guy that is fleecing you then? I'll take that £150 and offer you a couple of improvements:).
TheGreenManalishi
23-11-2009, 19:33
Thanks guys - its precisely that im impressed with the Caiman that im sure that it can be a long term source (*but lets face it im sure another 150 quids worth of components would improve it?)
My thought process was that a 500quid headphone amp might be a little too revealing for the DAC?
S
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 19:46
As I mentioned, pass me the 150 quid. I designed the DAC, so there is no better person to get an additional 150 quid worth of sound out of it...
TheGreenManalishi
23-11-2009, 20:10
If youre serious then that would be great Stanley.
What are the improvement directions you wish, Shaun ?
Please disregard if you think I'm being too curious. :)
Is there much more the Caiman can give for £150 of mods?
Not that I am considering it, just curious :lol:
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 20:30
What are the improvement directions you wish, Shaun ?
I am also interested to find out. My upgrade mods would not be of any use if they did not follow the direction you were thinking of.
I am working on an upgraded Caiman that I can take pics of in a week or so. That might be of help for you decide upon.
TheGreenManalishi
23-11-2009, 21:17
Hi Guys,
By all means call me an idiot but i "just thought" that some parts could be upgraded to better components for that figure - there is no element of the Caiman that im dissatfied with -but equally if you were pitching this at a resale price of 400gbp then would you have changed one or two things?
S
Ali Tait
23-11-2009, 21:51
So when's this upgraded Caiman coming out Stan? How much?
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 22:01
There is no upgraded Caiman coming out:confused:.
The Vinyl Adventure
23-11-2009, 22:06
These upgrade programs on eBay always seem a bit dubious to me! Is it the same company that offers £950 upgrades on a marantz cd63 ki? I noticed they were doing upgrades to the 7520 at one point... I don really know enough to say much on this subject but I have always questioned the value of these upgrades!
Ali Tait
23-11-2009, 22:15
Sounded like it in your previous post.Just a one-off for someone then.
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 22:29
Sounded like it in your previous post.Just a one-off for someone then.
Might be a good idea if you paid attention to what the starter of the thread is asking, and what his budget is:). He is that someone.
Ali Tait
23-11-2009, 22:34
I am also interested to find out. My upgrade mods would not be of any use if they did not follow the direction you were thinking of.
I am working on an upgraded Caiman that I can take pics of in a week or so. That might be of help for you decide upon.
It was the last part of this post Stan.I thought you meant you were working on a new Caimen.
TheGreenManalishi
23-11-2009, 22:37
So what would i expect to get Stanley, presuming you are sincere?
Or more peeved that ive suggested it?
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 23:06
So what would i expect to get Stanley, presuming you are sincere?
Or more peeved that ive suggested it?
Certainly peeved that you have questioned my sincerity.
When Covenant and a couple of other guys suggested a TC-7520 with a WM8716 instead of the PCM1716, I took note and eventually did decide to build such an item after further research.
Anyhow, let's think nothing of it. Best that you pursue your initial plans with regards to the person you intended to submit your DAC to for further upgrades.
Shanedudddy2
24-11-2009, 03:44
Perhaps opamp bypass, Output Capacitors and a Linear PSU would be a go??
Has anyone whos done this please let me know if it is worthwhile?
Also curious what upgrades you had in mind stan? Id consider to do the same myself, not that I dislike the caiman, but would just like to see how much better...preferrably to bypass the opamp, since i use an integrated amp anyways.
Talking about upgrades:
- Could the USB receiver be upgraded to accept 24/96 data ?
TheGreenManalishi
24-11-2009, 10:16
Certainly peeved that you have questioned my sincerity.
When Covenant and a couple of other guys suggested a TC-7520 with a WM8716 instead of the PCM1716, I took note and eventually did decide to build such an item after further research.
Anyhow, let's think nothing of it. Best that you pursue your initial plans with regards to the person you intended to submit your DAC to for further upgrades.
Will do, i appreciate your input.
Thanks guys - its precisely that im impressed with the Caiman that im sure that it can be a long term source (*but lets face it im sure another 150 quids worth of components would improve it?)
My thought process was that a 500quid headphone amp might be a little too revealing for the DAC?
S
Improve it in what way? do you have a reference point or are you just taking this persons word as gospel.
You might find that you could reap more rewards from simply changing the toslink/coax cable.
StanleyB
02-12-2009, 21:37
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/hd800.jpg
The bad thing about driving high-end headphones like my Sennheiser HD800 is that a high-end headphone amp is required to get the best reproduction.
The good thing is that the Caiman headphone amp is capable enough to compete against stand alone high-end headphone amp.
But driving the larger and more revealing HD800 drivers requires a bit of extra attention in the circuitry if the intention is to extract every bit of sound in the digital stream.
StanleyB
02-12-2009, 21:37
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/hd8002.jpg
To drive the larger HD800 drivers with the least possible distortion requires a larger damping ability from the headphone driver opamp. I selected the THS4032CD for that job, but hope to try out the TPA6120 as well.
I have always believed that capacitors in the signal path should be non-polarized. That's what they use in speakers after all. But finding low voltage small footprint non-polarized caps can be a tricky thing. I did manage to source some 47uF/16V types to replace the 4uF/16V polarized ones in the Caiman headamp. I also used the same caps in the opamp bias circuit. I'll keep an eye on that to see if it makes a difference or not.
The red caps are 68nF, instead of the original 47nF on PCB. This change gives a bit more width to the bass spectrum.
The 100pF caps in the HF feedback path of the headphone opamp has been removed. This was only decided upon after I fitted the new regulators (see next pic). Without the special regulators, the sound was a bit grainy with the caps removed.
The HD800 has a 300 ohms impedance. So I adjusted the gain of the amp upwards. The 68K resistors in the headmp feedback loop have been replaced with some 94K ones I had in my component box. I reckon 100K would be just fine as well.
StanleyB
02-12-2009, 21:38
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/reg.jpg
The standard regulators are not the best in the world. They are however adequate for most applications. However, the HD800 needs a lot more attention in the PSU area. So I opted to use the best regulators money can buy. For the 5V I used the Murata 7805SR, and the front regulator is the Murata 7812SR.
These regulators are not available in the UK, so I had to import them all the way from the US at quite considerable cost. Hopefully someone will start selling them in the UK very soon. They have a ripple voltage of just 10mV and make a considerable impact on the amount of extra detail that can be heard in the HD800.
Shanedudddy2
02-12-2009, 21:55
Explanation as well would be nice?
Stan you're teasing again!
*edit*
thanks for the update Stan, looks a good one for the headphone users out there.
therockst4r
02-12-2009, 22:30
I see some different caps, regulators, and opamps, did I miss anything? Please tell us what effect these mods had on the sound, if you are willing to share.
Shanedudddy2
03-12-2009, 01:22
Also whats the small board on the right...is that a battery? *shrug
detailed explanations pleeeaasse. :D lol
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 08:18
There are still a view more parts that I want to try out in the circuit, so this is work in progress.
I had to buy some of the caps in bulk in order to get them. If anyone with genuine soldering experience is interested in a set, I can work out a fair price in exchange. It is likely to be less than a fiver to cover P&P.
muiadsasa
03-12-2009, 08:30
I thought you meant you were working on a new Caimen.
Also whats the small board on the right...is that a battery? *shrug
detailed explanations pleeeaasse. :D lol
That's the USB input board.
Stan, those SuperRegs you've replaced the 7805 and 7810 with couldn't have been cheap. The big question is going to be... Are they worth it?
I've been reading that an LM340T5 regulator can be a good and cheap replacement for a 7805 in a digital circuit. I'm planning on giving this a go. Will report back.
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 08:40
Hi Rich, it cost me £84 for a pair of each to be shipped from the US. They only cost U$10 each if you are in the States. Maybe we can get someone in the US to buy them and send us a few over in the post;). Any US AoS member willing to volunteer for the job?
Those regulators make an immediate impact with my HD800, K701, and HD650, when combined with the other mods. However, the cost of the headphones make those regs look dirt cheap...
Leo designed his own equivalent version, which I also tried and found to be very good. I would still expect him to ask for £5 to £10 a piece though if he had to make them for anyone else. It's time consuming to build each one by hand.
Covenant
03-12-2009, 10:02
Apologies if I am breaking the rules but here is a link to a guy on the 'Wam who lives in the States and is very happy to order stuff for us:
http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=47882&forum_id=1
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 10:24
I have been told that Murata has a UK office, but I don't know how useful they are in getting these parts from Murata. Farnell did it for me at a a considerable cost, and mouser.com is just as expensive.
The Murata regulators upgrade in the Caiman are worth every penny, but you do need to be skilled in removing the originals from the PCB.
WARNING: these regulators can only be used on the Caiman. That is because they need a 15V input voltage, which is what the Caiman PSU delivers.
The TC-7520 PSU is only 12V, so the Murata regulators won't be properly activated in the TC-7520.
Shanedudddy2
03-12-2009, 11:35
Just wondering would upgrading the Big Input capacitor on the PSU make a big difference, the 10,000uf one?
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 12:00
None that I can think of. 10,000uF is amplifier type size. The one I use is the largest being made by anyone that can also fit in the case.
Tent labs do some shunt regulators that come in at 40 Euro each so not much cheaper than the ones Stan purchased....there was also another make that Leo mentioned but I cant remember..... :scratch:
http://www.tentlabs.com/Products/cdupgrade/shunt/index.html
Ah! found them...Paul Haynes:
http://www.paulhynesdesign.com/page6.html
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 13:16
The Mouser link for the Murata 12V is HERE (http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Power-Solutions/7812SR-C/?qs=35WhQNrE6p06e7H8TGUrcg%3d%3d).
Hmmm, those are going to wait until after Christmas ;-).
For anyone wanting a slightly cheaper upgrade, I can confirm that replacing the 7805 with an LM340T5 (I picked one up from Ebay for 99p + £1.50 postage) as a drop in replacement is most definitely an improvement.
Looks great Stan.
Just wondered what the "design" setting is for each of the regs (voltage and current). Is there any other way of doing the internal regulation other than by using switching types? for instance, if an external linear supply had it's own capacitor and tracking regulator controling 5v would the internal one be needed.
Chris
StanleyB
03-12-2009, 17:10
I am trying to concentrate on mods that are possible to carry out by any reasonably skilled person with electronics soldering experience.
Modifying the power supply to that extent is outside the scope of what I would consider reasonable safe to carry out.
No worries Stan.
Regards
Chris
therockst4r
03-12-2009, 18:27
I am trying to concentrate on mods that are possible to carry out by any reasonably skilled person with electronics soldering experience.
Modifying the power supply to that extent is outside the scope of what I would consider reasonable safe to carry out.
I tend to agree with you here, and I am very interested in what mods you are doing. Please keep us posted.
Hi Stan,
Thanks for the Mouser link. The prices appear to be £8.15 plus VAT and I am wondering if I am looking at the wrong page as you suggested that they are more than this?
Thinking about ordering a 7805 SR-C and 7812 SR-C but just wanted to make sure I am not looking at the wrong ones. Also they only do 0.5a and 0.4a and I noticed that the original ones do 1a.
Can we safely leave the heat sinks off them?
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
04-12-2009, 17:56
I ordered mine from Farnell, who turned out to be far more expensive. See HERE. (http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/results.jsp?N=1004519&isGoback=false) I published the link to a cheaper source for the benefit of AoS members, so that others would not incur the same unreasonable higher price.
Hi Stan,
Spotted these little chaps on ebay. Quite cheap for what they are but may be tricky squeezing them into the Caiman.
Could sound like poo though.
Regards
Chris
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=170412843359&Category=36332&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2
StanleyB
04-12-2009, 18:45
I wouldn't bother. The Caiman already has a similar circuit. The Murata etc. are far more worthwhile of an improvement. Try to get Leo to show the one he has running in his Caiman. It's far superior to the one on eBay.
Hi Stan,
Thanks again for your advice.
Regards
Chris
therockst4r
05-12-2009, 01:15
@Stan: Would I be able to use those regs with the stock heatsinks? Also, what improvements have you heard after installing them?
StanleyB
05-12-2009, 07:58
The Murata ones do not need the heatsink, so those need removing. The Murata current consumption is less than the 7812 currently fitted in the Caiman.
I didn't listen long enough to take note of the improvements with just he regs. I updated the caps at the same time, so detailed info is not available. But the depth of the detail in the music is now even greater. I can hear the voices of singers bouncing off the studio walls when they they raise the voice. This is clearly distinguishable from normal echo or reverb delay that is sometimes added to a track n order to create a similar effect.
therockst4r
05-12-2009, 17:41
@Stan: I noticed a similar effect from my cap upgrades, I will tell you what I end up with when I am completely done. Where can I find the murata regs in the US?
Stan, Couple of quick things.
Firstly, just to confirm the Regulators you linked (these (http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Power-Solutions/7812SR-C/?qs=35WhQNrE6p06e7H8TGUrcg%3d%3d)) are the ones that should be used in the Caiman only, yes?
Also, the replaced caps...I'd be interested in having a play with these. :eyebrows:
You know how it is....Your perfectly happy with something until some says you can make it slightly better by performing modifications within your skill sets, and with little cost :eek:
StanleyB
05-12-2009, 23:02
You also need:
Mouser Part No: 580-7805SR-C
Manufacturer Part No: 7805SR-C
I'll pm you about the caps.
Are these the ones Stan?
Rubycon 47uF 16v (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/30-x-Rubycon-47uF-16V-radial-electrolytic-capacitors_W0QQitemZ200411879354QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item2ea97a97ba)
or:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NK-Series-NONPOLARIZED-2x-CAPACITORS-47uf-QUAD-405-1-_W0QQitemZ140362335226QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq2009112 4?IMSfp=TL091124182001r15518
It seems BlackGate did some 47uF/6.3v non-polorised ones buts they cannot be got any more.
therockst4r
06-12-2009, 04:04
Are these the ones Stan?
Rubycon 47uF 16v (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/30-x-Rubycon-47uF-16V-radial-electrolytic-capacitors_W0QQitemZ200411879354QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item2ea97a97ba)
or:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NK-Series-NONPOLARIZED-2x-CAPACITORS-47uf-QUAD-405-1-_W0QQitemZ140362335226QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq2009112 4?IMSfp=TL091124182001r15518
It seems BlackGate did some 47uF/6.3v non-polorised ones buts they cannot be got any more.
Just use silmic ii caps, they sound very similar to the blackgates, and much better than the stock caps.
apmusson
06-12-2009, 16:39
Hi
I have ordered the Murata regulators to beef up the power supplies to the dac and amp. I wondered whether the cap upgrades would be worthwhile as I am not intending to use the headphone amp to drive my 701s, just the fixed lineout.
I hope to fit the Murata's after Christmas, but am interested if anyone tries the regulator upgrade independently of the cap upgrades....
Ade
StanleyB
06-12-2009, 21:26
Are these the ones Stan?
Rubycon 47uF 16v (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/30-x-Rubycon-47uF-16V-radial-electrolytic-capacitors_W0QQitemZ200411879354QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL?hash=item2ea97a97ba)
You need four pieces for the line output, and another four for the headphone amp section. So the 30 piece offer would be more than enough.
If you are not into headphone listening, then you only need to mod the line output.
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/hd8002.jpg
What are the remaining 2 caps for then, I count 10 in the picture?
StanleyB
06-12-2009, 23:09
They are headphone mods for K701/HD650/HD800. They are 68nF/63V WIMA polyester types. Gives more detail in the bass on headphones.
They are headphone mods for K701/HD650/HD800. They are 68nF/63V WIMA polyester types. Gives more detail in the bass on headphones.
Oh right. Well since my headphones are (unfortunately) not even slightly in that league of performance, I'll leave the remaining 2 alone. :lol:
Edit:
Oh wait, hang on. I assume the 2 WIMA ones your referring to are the red ones just right of the grey caps, yes?
I was talking about the 10 grey caps 4 on the left and 6 on the right. You only mentioned 4 for line out and 4 for headphones.
StanleyB
07-12-2009, 07:47
You only need to worry about the 4 on the left if it is only LINE output you wish to upgrade.
Shanedudddy2
09-12-2009, 21:59
What would be the best capacitors to use for the 47uf 16V?
I just plan to replace the lineout capacitors and want the best I can get, the Blackgate equivalents, since they no longer make them.
StanleyB
10-12-2009, 07:06
The non-polarized Rubycon are quite good. But I have updated the circuit a bit. So best wait for a new picture to appear from me.
Shanedudddy2
10-12-2009, 21:57
Have you done some further modding stan?
*waits for pictures :P
What would be the best capacitors to use for the 47uf 16V?
I just plan to replace the lineout capacitors and want the best I can get, the Blackgate equivalents, since they no longer make them.
what are the BG equivalents....?
the 47uF 6.3V NX Hi-Q or something rated higher...?
Shanedudddy2
14-12-2009, 08:54
Are all the caps 47uf to replace, i thought I saw some 100uf caps?
Shanedudddy2
14-12-2009, 09:08
Ordered 2 Mundorf Mcap 2.2uf caps to do what lovejoy has done to bypass the opamp. hope it works well...probably overkill, but we`ll see.
Does anyone know why non polarized caps rather than polarized ones would offer upgrade to the opamp circuit? I thought that the non polars are just two caps back to back effectively. Is it more likely that the improvement in sound could be just down to a different cap?
Regards
Chris
Does anyone know why non polarized caps rather than polarized ones would offer upgrade to the opamp circuit? I thought that the non polars are just two caps back to back effectively. Is it more likely that the improvement in sound could be just down to a different cap?
Regards
Chris
I too was wondering this.
I have, however, bought a load of the 47uF 16v non-polarised caps that stan recommended. Just awaiting their arrival then I shall get stuck in with the soldering iron.
StanleyB
14-12-2009, 20:36
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/caps.jpg
From left to right:
1. The standard PCB.
2. One fitted with the LM4562HA,
3. And the one I prefer for my headphones: the THS4032CD
Only 6 polarized caps should be replaced. Leave the others well alone. They are for the bias of the headphone amp.
Also replace the two yellow caps either side of the headphone opamp from 47nF to 68nF.
Looking good Stan:smoking:
http://www.homehifi.co.uk/images/mods/caiman/caps.jpg
From left to right:
1. The standard PCB.
2. One fitted with the LM4562HA,
3. And the one I prefer for my headphones: the THS4032CD
Only 6 polarized caps should be replaced. Leave the others well alone. They are for the bias of the headphone amp.
Also replace the two yellow caps either side of the headphone opamp from 47nF to 68nF.
Perfect, I shall give this a go.
I have 30 of the non-polarised caps on their way to me, I should also have 5 THS4032CD's & 5 OPA2132's on their way too me as well. All I need now are the 2 WIMA caps, and some SOIC to DIP pcbs and im ready to go.
Just a thought Stan, is it possible to get a second Op-Amp PCB with components? One for playing with or modifying and the other for a base comparison. Then maybe it would be possible to just switch the entire PCB to perform side by side tests of component combinations. :eyebrows:
Mind you, I'm sure that's what you do anyway... :lol:
therockst4r
15-12-2009, 03:56
I know what I am doing this weekend :)
Covenant
15-12-2009, 08:03
Can any of these alterations be applied to the 7520 Stan? (and is it worth it)
StanleyB
15-12-2009, 08:10
They work fine on my TC-7520 as well.
Stan,
Looks good.
Following your testing do you prefer the LM4562HA (metal can) opamp to the standard LM4562's (plastic) for the line out circuit?
Regards
Chris
StanleyB
15-12-2009, 11:10
I have always preferred the THS4032CD for my system, and matches the combination of NS1000M & HD800 perfectly for me.
The LM4562 metal can type has more bass than the plastic version, but less detail and less treble, when used on my system.
ZebuTheOxen
15-12-2009, 14:28
The one on the right hand side looks quite interesting.
Two questions;
1) Where are the two yellow caps at the very top of the PCB attached to? The same place the blue ones are in the middle one?
2) Do these changes counteract the highly-strung needs of the THS4032CD? There is quite a lot of sibilance / frequency misrepresentation with them in the unmodified circuitry.
StanleyB
15-12-2009, 14:57
The two yellow caps are part of the Caiman PCB. They are not on the TC-7520 PCB.
for the line out caps, what are the BG equivalents....?
the 47uF 6.3V NX Hi-Q or something rated higher...?
anyone...? :)
Shanedudddy2
19-12-2009, 04:22
Did the change of the regulators, pretty big difference imo =)
now for the op-amp bypass lol sound like I`m doing surgery :P...hmm i guess I am haha
StanleyB
19-12-2009, 08:27
Take note that if you bypass the line output opamp, you'll get a lot more sampling noise breaking through.
You'll also have a lot more problems with audio cable selection. The opamp acts as a buffer and impedance matching circuit. When you bypass it, the load is placed on the DAC chip, which is not designed to act as a buffer and impedance matching network. The DAC chip output impedance is 10K loaded. The opamp output is less than 1K.
Shanedudddy2
19-12-2009, 13:04
u mean the DC offset or something else?
Shanedudddy2
20-12-2009, 01:14
I have no use for my Opamp board since doing my change, anyone want to buy it off me so they could mod it and do changes and switch the board in and out easily to test things?
therockst4r
20-12-2009, 06:23
How big a difference was the opamp bypass in your opinion?
Shanedudddy2
20-12-2009, 06:34
Was a pretty decent upgrade in my books. Bass was the noticeable effect. Bass with opamps seems too be either bloated, tuneless or just plain not there. The revival of the Bass was the big thing for me, as well as improvement of all other areas, will put in some higher quality bypass caps in later and see how that sounds in comparison later on :D
Shanedudddy2
20-12-2009, 07:45
Also wondering what would be the lowest capacitance value to use to prevent DC offset from the DAC? As smaller valued capacitors are cheaper
FarmBoy (DaveK yet again!)
20-12-2009, 10:12
I have no use for my Opamp board since doing my change, anyone want to buy it off me so they could mod it and do changes and switch the board in and out easily to test things?
Hi Shane,
Please PM me with a price for the op-amp board - no commitment either way.
Dave.
therockst4r
20-12-2009, 20:35
Was a pretty decent upgrade in my books. Bass was the noticeable effect. Bass with opamps seems too be either bloated, tuneless or just plain not there. The revival of the Bass was the big thing for me, as well as improvement of all other areas, will put in some higher quality bypass caps in later and see how that sounds in comparison later on :D
I would be interested in seeing pictures of this, if its not too much to ask.
Shanedudddy2
20-12-2009, 22:42
Okay dokes, right now its messy as and can be done a LOT cleaner and safer, but alas to give you an idea I`ll try and take some pics some time.
Had a go at Stan's non polar upgrade to the opamp circuit a few days ago and like the changes to the sound. Still running in but I can detect more depth in the music and the treble has a bit more life without being over done. I used the Rubycon 47uf/16v caps from ebay.
This is with the standard LM4562NA opamps and a 15v linear power supply.
Nice one Stan (and Leo).
Regards
I have found these 47uF 16V Black Gates at Parts Connexion whom I've used before. Could someone who has done this please check that the dimensions are ok? I only need four for the line out so price is not an issue.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_blackgate_f.html
StanleyB
23-12-2009, 18:15
The mod needs non-polarized caps to be effective. I am not sure those BG are such types.
Anyhow, I might have one spare set left over. If you are not doing the headphone section mod as well let me know. I can post you a set of the caps with the Caiman PSU next week for you if I do have enough left.
Thanks Stan, I'll go with that offer since I'm only doing line out. Can you adjust the PayPal payment before you send it to me?
Hi Martin,
Those BG caps diameters are a bit big. They are 10mm dia and the Rubycon's I used are 8mm dia and only just went in (touching together).
Stick with Stan's as they look to be Rubycons also (same colour and overall look anyway).
Regards
Hi Martin,
Sorry to butt in here, but have you received the new bearing yet for your 1210? Chris has got his :)
Marco.
Hi Marco
Not yet - but then nothing has been delivered to Basingstoke for the last two days. I will let you know the minute I receive it.
These Dexa regulators from Parts Connexion look interesting. If the "100 times better ripple rejection, 10 times lower noise" claims are true then they should make a substantial difference over the stock 7805/7812 regulators. I'm ordering a 5V and 12V module just for the fun of using something different and will report on my findings when received. I should have the Caiman PSU soon, ready for them.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/regulator_dexa.html
StanleyB
24-12-2009, 11:31
The Murata versions are similar in spec, and a fraction of that price.
Understood Stan - I was feeling adventurous and just thought I'd try them. Think of it as adding to our pool of component knowledge.
If spending that sort of money I'd have gone for the Paul Hynes , anyway let us know how you get on with the Dexa's Martin
So I finally had some time to put in the new non-polarised caps this morning, they're still settling in, but I can hear a pleasant improvement.
Here are a couple of photos of the operation.
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2187/p1020644.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/883/p1020655v.jpg
The capacitors quite literally only just fit into the case. So much so that, I placed a couple of stickers on the underside of the lid over the op-amp board to ensure i dont get any chances of a short.
I also fitted a couple of OP1234 op-amps. Must admit I like the improvements.
Shanedudddy2
28-12-2009, 12:01
Stan if you could please let me know the minimum capacitor value to get rid of the DC offset without limiting the bass I would really appreciate it.
Since I don't have a camera I`ll explain what I did, disconnect the 3 wires(labeled L,G,R (for left, right and ground)) on the far right side of the board, on the closest board to you when looking at the DAC front on. Then I disconnected the line out connectors to the board. Then soldered a "high quality" capacitor from electronics store near me to fix the DC offset, between the left and the negative connector and the same for the right and the positive connector).
here we go again
30-12-2009, 21:51
Having been quietly following the Beresford DAC phenomena since the 7510 days - I finally gave in and ordered a Caiman from Stan about a month ago to partner my Shigaclone.
I have to agree with almost everything already said about this fantastic DAC - out of the box it was good, but obviously burning in - within a day it was something else - now with a couple of hundred hours under it's belt it is a wonderous thing and like most others, I have been rediscovering my CD collection.
Inevitably the urge to see what could be extracted from this beast had me rolling opamps recently - I'm fortunate to have a good stock of so-called 'audiophile' opamps hanging around from various projects so i got to it. My usual favourite is the THS4032 - but in the Caiman it just wasn't right IMO - I went through most of the usuals - OPA627, AD845,AD846,AD847, OP2132,LT1364 + more - in the end i returned to the stock LM4562's that Stan fitted. Nice one Stan - I reckon you got it bang on with these! - Other opamps can do some things better but in my system none of them had the balance that the stock ones have :clap:
So - then I flirted with the resistor & cap in the feedback loop - but didn't get on with that either - again the balance seems better with just the stock resistor and MCL5/6 left empty. After that it was the 4 line stage coupling caps on the analogue board - a quad of 3.3uF Wima polys replaced the lytics and have removed a thin veil - the jury is still out on them and I turned my attention to the power supply.
Because just one 7805 feeds all the +5v in the device - I started to take a look at just how many seperate regs it would take to give every user it's own supply. The truth is - I think there are at least 9 different users points!! - the important ones are obviously the DAC and receiver chip - but in reality the DAC itself has 4 seperate supply points - and the receiver has 2. I began by knocking together a trio of +5V LM2940's on a small piece of vero - then looked at the Caiman board to see where I could seperate the single supply and inject some fresh volts.
the bottom line is - splitting these supply points is not THAT easy - injecting seperate volts for the receiver digital and analogue supplys was pretty straightforward - but finding a suitable place to seperate the digital supply for the DAC chip wasn't easy - mainly because of the size of the device and the fact that pins 8 & 9 (+5V dig & +5V R.Analogue) share the same local decoupler and bypass! - this was super tricky and not for the faint hearted. But - I now have 3 extra +5V regs feeding the dig and analogue parts of the receiver and the dig supply of the DAC chip - all on a neat little piece of vero that fits inside the case still - I'll get a pic or 2 up soon. The existing +5V reg still supplys everything else - Eventually, I may seperate the Wolfson analogue supplys too with an additional 3 regs.
So how does it sound? - quite stunning IMO!! - seperation is the word here - really, the ability of this DAC now to extract micro details in the music is just outstanding. The tonal balance has not been affected too much either - it might have become a little brighter - although I suspect this may actually be because all those little cymbal splashes are now more evident.
Anyway ....................................... the main reason for this post was to say that Farnell UK have a couple of dozen of those Murata +5V switching regs in stock - no. 1703410 - I ordered one to see what it can do - should be here tomorrow.
thanks to Stan for a great product and thanks to all the contributors to this and the other great DIY threads on AoS.
what are the BG equivalents....?
the 47uF 6.3V NX Hi-Q or something rated higher...?
anyone...? :)
hmm...i thought this was the right place to ask this.... :doh:
hmm...i thought this way the right place to ask this.... :doh:
Sorry Toad, I'd say 6.3v is a bit too low voltage in this application, go for 16v or higher.
If your struggling with the taller caps I guess you could lay them on their sides, the grey caps Stan recommends are pretty good though and fit ( a little tight but still fit)
Edit, if your set on using BG's with their unique colouration :whistle: the BG N 33uf 16v may fit, not sure, you'd have to measure the space in the case, measurements for these caps are 6.3mm dia x 11mm length
thanks leo....
drat...that wasn't the reply i was hoping for as i ordered them a week ago... :scratch:
alright then....16v caps it is...
thanks leo....
drat...that wasn't the reply i was hoping for as i ordered them a week ago... :scratch:
alright then....16v caps it is...
You got a multimeter Toad? you may be able to use a couple or more of the 6.3v BG's rather than waste them, I can't remember the voltages going to all those caps, if you measure the stock ones you'll know which maybe ok if that makes sense, long as the voltage is lower than say 6v, I personally like plenty of headroom regarding the caps max rated voltage
The 6.3v you have spare, well you could try them on the dacs 5v supply pins, BG N types are suited as both coupling or decoupling:)
Ever seen an exploded electrolytic? Personally, I wouldn't risk the nice insides of the Caiman.
Ever seen an exploded electrolytic? Personally, I wouldn't risk the nice insides of the Caiman.
Yes and also tants, not the prettiest of sights:lol:
thanks again leo for the assistance...
i do have a MM...
i'll have a boo at those caps to see who is doing what....
where would the dac's 5v supply pins be located...?
Stratmangler
01-01-2010, 20:21
thanks again leo for the assistance...
i do have a MM...
i'll have a boo at those caps to see who is doing what....
where would the dac's 5v supply pins be located...?
This any use ?
http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/uploads/documents/WM8716.pdf
Chris:)
Ok, I've got the two Dexa regulators (+12V and +5V modules marked 'NewClassD') in place. Angled as shown, they just fit snugly inside the cover. They also feature tiny blue LEDs to show that they're working properly. Output voltages are spot-on using the Caiman 15V PSU. I have deliberately not performed the capacitor upgrades yet as I wanted to hear what the regulators do.
Listening to it now, the Caiman has improved focus (up to that of my Ayre C-5xe) and extended and growly bass (almost up to the Ayre's admittedly high standard). It sounds fab playing films and CDs from my Blu-ray player as transport. I cannot test Sky HD as I have no signal since my dish got clogged with snow.
Altogether a very worthwhile improvement and fun!
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8057/8223580266_2c9cf400d8_b.jpg
Hi Martin,
Nice work. How much did the Dexa's cost?
Can you detect much sound difference over the stock regulators?
Regards
Chris
Thanks. They cost $39.95 each from Parts Connexion here:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/regulator_dexa.html
As I said, the main improvement is over focus, which is now extremely good. This gives very precise positioning in the stereo stage and a spacious feel with very low noise floor.
Before I go ahead can I please confirm which are the four electrolytic capacitors to be replaced for just the fixed line level output?
The 4 with red dots on, top and bottom left ones input to op-amp, top and bottom ones on right are op-amp output
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj220/kingbusoms/dac-1.jpg
That's great - thanks Leo. Doing them now.
No probs Martin, let us know how you get on:)
Done. Oh yes, another subtle improvement in clarity and focus. I just watched Quantum of Solace on Sky HD (now that the snow's off my dish) and the soundtrack is superbly delineated and detailed. This is one very fine DAC indeed and worth the modding cost.
More information on the Dexa 'NewClassD' regulators, made in Denmark:
http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=70
here we go again
12-01-2010, 16:54
as promised several days ago a few pics of my Caiman - at the moment!
1. The output board with the Wima film caps - after listening to this for a week or so I've decided to keep them - 3u3 was the largest value i could find whilst keeping the physical size small enough to fit neatly - I've got away with it with my Puresound and theres no hint of any bass lightness. At the same time I fitted a couple of ZA's to decouple the non-inverting input too. - haven't touched the headphone amp yet!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/gpfleming/audio/IMGP2006.jpg
2. The regulator board fitted neatly to the rear panel - at the moment this contains 3 x LM2940 +5v regs with each having a small inductor and caps to keep it stable. Eventually i will swap out each one with an Audiocom super reg i have in another project - see what difference it makes. I also have another few of those Murata 7805SR switching regs which will go in here at some point - for the time being i was just curious to see what difference it would make if i seperated the supplies. Currently these 3 feed the Wolfson dig. supply, the CS dig. supply and CS analogue supply. The board is fed from the incoming 15V supply - I added a couple of veropins to some redundant padded holes in the board - you can just see one of them in the last pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/gpfleming/audio/IMGP2023.jpg
3. An overview of the digital board showing the Murata reg fitted in the original location and a smattering of cap upgrades - ZA's, OScons and the odd BG I had lying around. The multicoloured link wires replaced the original grey ribbon which wasn't really flexible enough to allow for repetitive board removals! The replacement caps haven't been in too long yet but after just a few hours the low freqs have more slam - and the highs seem crisper - hopefully things will improve further as things settle in.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/gpfleming/audio/IMGP2022.jpg
This is work in progress and I have some other ideas but am trying to keep it slow - it's quite a challenge to work within the tight spaces but I'm enjoying it - be warned though, it is not for the inexperienced - especially splitting the supplies which can be a real headache. This thing is certainly a giant killer though and I have never heard my system (Puresound/Triangle) sound like it does at the moment - all those little reverb clues in the music are much more evident now - puts a huge grin on your face!!
Oh and something I noticed recently - Farnell are waivering the US delivery charge for the remainder of January - this means that the Murata +12V switching regs can be had for less than £15 - I've just ordered a couple - as I mentioned in my previous post the +5v ones are UK stock and are a bit less than £12 each - they are great value for money and in my experience give some of the so called 'low-noise' regs a run for their money.
Nice work here-we-go-again (what is your name?), did you work from a circuit diagram or did you trace the +5V rails from the PCB tracks? What have you done about +12V - I see the heatsink is missing, but what regulator have you got in there?
here we go again
12-01-2010, 19:14
hi Martin - glad you like - oh and a circuit diagram would be great!! but no I just followed the +5v as it meandered it's way around the board. Study and print off the datasheets for the receiver and DAC then split/seperate as necessary. The main difficulty arises from the fact that this is obviously a double sided board and the tracks frequently hop from one side to the other through plated holes - check, check, then check again BOTH SIDES before cutting the track at a suitable point, drilling a hole and wiring up - remembering to include the decoupling cap and bypass in the new supply. You could get away without drilling but I wanted it to look reasonably neat.
The receiver wasn't too difficult to suss out and of course it's a larger package which helps - the DAC is not funny at all and takes much head scratching. The positioning of the DAC de-coupling caps and bypasses around the chip makes seperating the supplies here really tricky - but just about possible. I hope I don't sound patronising, but it is seriously tricky and only for the experienced - so very easy to ruin the thing.
Regarding the +12v, I haven't attacked that yet - just removed the heatsink in preparation while the board was out - it doesn't even get warm.
oh and my name's Graeme - sorry must get a sig. sorted sometime!
HighFidelityGuy
15-01-2010, 16:46
I'd like to try the Murata reg's but as Stan said the shipping is a bit pricey. Orders over £50 get free delivery on Mouser, so if two or three (or more) other people are interested in trying these then I'd be happy to place the order and post them out. I'll order in pairs (one 7805SR-C and one 7812SR-C) and only charge the price it costs me to order them plus the postage to you, which should be cheap. If anyone is interested drop me a PM. :)
Top idea Dave.
Please count me in and I have also sent you a pm. Anyone done both regs and liked what they heard?
Regards
Chris
Anyone done both regs and liked what they heard?
Yes, I like the improvement in focus, imaging and detail very much.
here we go again
15-01-2010, 20:11
I'd like to try the Murata reg's but as Stan said the shipping is a bit pricey. Orders over £50 get free delivery on Mouser, so if two or three (or more) other people are interested in trying these then I'd be happy to place the order and post them out. I'll order in pairs (one 7805SR-C and one 7812SR-C) and only charge the price it costs me to order them plus the postage to you, which should be cheap. If anyone is interested drop me a PM. :)
Dave - did you read my post? - both of them?
get to the Farnell UK web site - the +5v Murata is UK stock and is £11.85 - there are NO delivery charges with Farnell - the stock no. is 170-3410
The +12v Murata, stock no. 165-4856 is £14.27 - but it is USA stock which normally attracts a £15.95 delivery surcharge - for the remainder of January that surcharge IS BEING WAIVERED - Look at the webpage.
so for a TOTAL of less than £27 you can have both Murata regs - delivered. the +5v one will be next day, the +12v one takes 3 days-ish - mine took only 2 days - from Philadelphia!!!
FWIW - my +12v reg is now fitted to the front board along with a Ruby ZA decouple. It has made a substantial improvement again to the amount of detail that this DAC can get out of the music - the pair have probably made more difference than the +5v one did - extremely impressive.
HighFidelityGuy
15-01-2010, 20:45
Hi Graeme,
Thanks for the info, I must have missed where you mentioned that.
Despite the Farnell shipping surcharge being wavered Mouser is cheaper (with free delivery) as they charge less for the parts. So if I can get another one or two people to chip in we'll save money overall.
If nobody else chips in Farnell would be the cheaper option.
Cheers. :)
Hi Graeme,
Thanks for the info, I must have missed where you mentioned that.
Despite the Farnell shipping surcharge being wavered Mouser is cheaper (with free delivery) as they charge less for the parts. So if I can get another one or two people to chip in we'll save money overall.
If nobody else chips in Farnell would be the cheaper option.
Cheers. :)
I'm happy to join you. Do you know how much its likely to be?
HighFidelityGuy
17-01-2010, 15:28
Excellent, thanks James.
The reg's are £8.15 each. So £16.30 for a pair. You then just need to add postage. The packages should be bellow 100g each so this will be a couple of pounds or so depending on what postage method we go for. I'd probably prefer to use "1st class signed for" for the added traceability. So you're looking at approx £18.30.
Does that sound ok to everyone?
Excellent, thanks James.
The reg's are £8.15 each. So £16.30 for a pair. You then just need to add postage. The packages should be bellow 100g each so this will be a couple of pounds or so depending on what postage method we go for. I'd probably prefer to use "1st class signed for" for the added traceability. So you're looking at approx £18.30.
Does that sound ok to everyone?
That sounds fine with me.
Thanks Dave. :)
Im very tempted to get 2 sets given their price. 1 pair for my Caiman and one pair spare for future mods.....hmm....decisions. :lol:
Covenant
17-01-2010, 16:42
Excellent, thanks James.
The reg's are £8.15 each. So £16.30 for a pair. You then just need to add postage. The packages should be bellow 100g each so this will be a couple of pounds or so depending on what postage method we go for. I'd probably prefer to use "1st class signed for" for the added traceability. So you're looking at approx £18.30.
Does that sound ok to everyone?
Hi Dave,
There are at least three of us wanting the regulator/capacitor mods done to our 7520's. We have asked Tirna to read the thread so they can quote. If everything goes to plan they will need three sets so will contact you. Hope you dont mind hanging on a few days just so we can firm things up.
HighFidelityGuy
17-01-2010, 17:15
That's fine, I'm not in a rush. Just let me know when it's all sorted. I'll then double check with everyone how many I need to order and take it from there.
Cheers. :)
smurfbrain
17-01-2010, 20:25
Hi Dave,
Can you please count me in as well for one pair.
apmusson
17-01-2010, 21:07
Hi Dave,
There are at least three of us wanting the regulator/capacitor mods done to our 7520's. We have asked Tirna to read the thread so they can quote. If everything goes to plan they will need three sets so will contact you. Hope you dont mind hanging on a few days just so we can firm things up.
Jerry,
Let me know too. I'm a novice with the soldering iron and need some Tirna assistance!
Cheers
Ade
Covenant
17-01-2010, 21:11
Sure Ade-the more the merrier. As soon as we know more from Jimmy at Tirna we will be in touch.
Hi Jerry,
(Gentle prod with a blunt stick!)
Have you managed to contact Tirna to see if they would like any as I am eager to obtain mine and if it's going to be a while will probably just go for it.
Regards
Chris
Covenant
19-01-2010, 15:35
Hi Chris,
I will prod Tirna again-he is looking at prices.
HighFidelityGuy
19-01-2010, 17:45
I've just finished installing a full set of the non-polarized Rubycon caps into my 7520 that I use at work for headphone duties. Although the caps probably need to run in I definitely noticed an improvement in the subtle background detail. This added an extra air to the sound and is a nice improvement. I'm definitely going to do this mod on my Caiman back at home ASAP. Hopefully I'll have that done in time for the Murata regs arriving once that's all sorted out.
On the subject of the regs, Jerry asked me to send him my email address, which I've done, so one of us will let you all know what's happening soon.
i'll just chime in with my impressions of my recent caiman mods...
a couple of weeks back i installed the new murata regs, just the regs...
i immediately noticed an increase in mid and higher frequency detail and clarity...almost to the point of brightness...certainly the digital 'sharpness' of my stock duet became much more apparent...
as a result, the sound seemed tilted upwards and the lower mids and bottom seemed hollowed and somewhat muted...
then i took delivery of a handfull of elna silmic II 47uf 25v's....(thanks to rockstars recommendation)....i'm into them now for ~50hr...AH HAH...the bottom is back with vengence...Stan is dead on were he states earlier in the thread that the murata's and re-capping are complimentary....
Graybags
26-01-2010, 00:03
That's fine, I'm not in a rush. Just let me know when it's all sorted. I'll then double check with everyone how many I need to order and take it from there.
Cheers. :)
Hi Dave.
If its not too late can I jump on the bandwaggon and put my name down for a set. I've just this weekend taken the plunge and ordered a Caiman as a start of upgrading my Hi-Fi. At some point in the future I'm sure I'll want to tinker with it.
Obviously I'm a complete unknown in this group but have been lurking anonymously for the last couple of weeks. Dave I'll PM you with my email.
Cheers :)
The Grand Wazoo
26-01-2010, 20:05
Graybags,
Quick you'd better move fast before the 'first post police' collar you!
Head over to the Welcome section & let folks know some simple stuff like your first name, whereabouts (roughly) you live, what your system is, what type of music you like.....all that sort of stuff.
Welcome!!
Graybags,
Quick you'd better move fast before the 'first post police' collar you!
Head over to the Welcome section & let folks know some simple stuff like your first name, whereabouts (roughly) you live, what your system is, what type of music you like.....all that sort of stuff.
Welcome!!
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Wot he said, but I'll say "welcome" anyway!
HighFidelityGuy
27-01-2010, 12:57
Has anyone got an update on whether Tirna want me to source the regs for them or not yet? If possible I'd like to work out how many we need quite soon so I can place the order next week
Cheers.
Through following this thread I taken the plunge and ordered the Murata Regs and Non-Polarized Caps to upgrade my Caiman.
Has anyone undertake a mod of replacing the standard fitted RCA sockets line out/variable out with higher quality RCA sockets such as CMC, WBT and Cardas. Was it an easy mod removing the standard sockets from the PCB, which RCA's did you replace them with, what wire did you use, and what were the audible results of the mod if any ?
Looked at this thread for Modwright RCA upgrades and some of the claims made
http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=30035&forum=65&start=0&select_page_number=1
Your thoughts, your experiences please
Frizzup
Ali Tait
27-01-2010, 19:48
I wouldn't bother TBH,doubt it would make much if any difference.I'd say you'd be better off doing some of the othermods.
HighFidelityGuy
02-02-2010, 17:35
Hi,
Right, I've made a list of everyone that's asked to be included in the group buy. So this offer is now closed to new people.
The following people are joining in:
Covenant - 1 pair
Paul_CZ - 1 pair
Chrism - 1 pair
Carson - 1 pair
Smurfbrain - 1 pair
ampusson - 1 pair
Graybags - 1 pair
Dave Clarke - 1 pair
Me - 2 pairs
So that's 10 pairs in total.
If anyone in the above list has since decided to not take part, they need to let me know ASAP.
You now all have a few options.
I've decided to offer you all the option of also buying the Rubycon 47uF caps and/or the red Wilma polyester caps at the same time. I will supply these along with the regs when I post them out. I decided it would be easier for everyone if I did it this way.
So could you all please let me know which of the following options you want to go for:
1. Just the regs: £18.30 inc shipping
2. Regs and Rubycon caps: £19 inc shipping
3. Regs and Wilma caps: £18.70 inc shipping
4. Regs, Rubycons and Wilmas: £19.30 inc shipping
The above prices are for full sets of caps to perform the full mods on the line out and headphone out.
In case you've forgotten what the different caps do; the Rubycons improve the detail a bit and compliment the regs nicely. The Wilmas help the headphone output run expensive headphones better. That's the gist.
The price assumes a postage fee of £2 for a 1st class signed for package. Shipping to Europe will be £5, so if you're in Europe you'll need to add £3 to the above prices. I then rounded the prices up to the nearest 10p to cover cost of packaging and petrol for the trip to the post office. :lol:
I'll be PM'ing everyone in the list to make you all aware of this post if you've not seen it already. You then all just need to let me know what option you want to go for.
On the subject of payment, I can't really afford the risk of ordering all this stuff before receiving the money. So once I know what you want I'll let you know the payment options.
Does anyone know if I'll get charged by PayPal for receiving payments? I've never done that before.
Cheers,
David.
Does anyone know if I'll get charged by PayPal for receiving payments?
Not if it's marked gift or family transfer : it's the sender who pays. ;)
In all other cases, yes, you will be charged.
HighFidelityGuy
02-02-2010, 17:42
Not if it's marked gift or family transfer : it's the sender who pays. ;)
In all other cases, yes, you will be charged.
Thanks Dimitri,
So if anyone wants to pay via PayPal it will cost them a bit more than the prices above. If you want to avoid this I'll accept bank transfer instead.
Cheers.
Hi Dave,
I am still in and happy with 1 pair of regs only.
As for payment, I believe we could all do it by Gift. However, my experience of this is that they monitor such payments carefully and may well spot the fact that you have suddenly received 8 or so gift payments from people.
I am unsure of the charges as its been a while doing such payments for me.
Not if it's marked gift or family transfer : it's the sender who pays. ;)
In all other cases, yes, you will be charged.
I didn't think there were charges for gift/family transfer. At least not when i've done it I dont think.
Paypal Fees (https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-fees)
HighFidelityGuy
02-02-2010, 17:48
Hmm, if PayPal might get suspicious about it it's probably best if everyone pays via bank transfer unless you absolutely can't do it any other way than PayPal. I don't want any of us to get in trouble or unexpectedly charged.
I forgot to mention earlier that I'll be sending your orders directly to you. So if you want Tirna to do the soldering for you you'll have to send the parts to them yourself along with your DAC.
Cheers.
Hmm, if PayPal might get suspicious about it it's probably best if everyone pays via bank transfer unless you absolutely can't do it any other way than PayPal. I don't want any of us to get in trouble or unexpectedly charged.
I forgot to mention earlier that I'll be sending your orders directly to you. So if you want Tirna to do the soldering for you you'll have to send the parts to them yourself along with your DAC.
Cheers.
I dont think they will bother too much. We could just send them as Personal payments, choosing 'Personal Payment Owed' or 'Other' as the option.
As far as Paypal is concerned it could easily be your birthday and people on the forum are simply sending you some birthday cash :eyebrows:
Personally, I'd prefer to pay via Paypal, if either of us get charged, I'll cover the costs. Besides, even with fees, it should be no more than £20.
Dave, I've changed my mind actually....Could I get 2 pairs of regs please. - £34.60 (inc P&P)?
Hi Dave,
Yes please, Option 1, just the regs and can I call over and pay / collect as I am in Sheffield as well. Will do cash so nice and easy.
Big thank you for sorting it for us.
Regards
Chris
Hi Dave,
Thanks for organizing the group buy!
I'll go for option 4 ('full package') - great chance to get everything without a hassle ...
-
Regarding PayPal: fees depend on country you send from. Here in Germany I cant send a personal Payment. To quote the german user agreement:
Fees for Personal Payments
In Germany, users may receive Personal payments but won’t be able to send Personal Payments.
Although I'd prefer PayPal (international bank transfer will cost even more ...). As PMed, I'll roughly calculate the fees and add them to the total. So I'd send 19.30 GBP + 3 GBP (Shipment Europe) + fees asap.
Regards
cz
Covenant
02-02-2010, 19:16
Hi Dave,
Option 4 for me please. If its ok with you I will use Paypal, selecting gift and paying the charges. If for any reason you get charged please let me know and I will cover the extra.
I really appreciate this. Have a pint on me :cool:
smurfbrain
02-02-2010, 21:18
Hi Dave,
Option 3 for me please. I can do pypal or bacs. please pm me with your preffered payment method details.
Thank you
apmusson
02-02-2010, 23:01
Hi David,
I already have both the Murata regs (got them before Christmas), but would like the rubys and wilmas to complete the set. Let me know how much you want (PM) and I'll paypal you the necessary.
Thanks
Ade
Graybags
03-02-2010, 01:22
Hi Dave,
Good of you to get this sorted, I'll go for option 4 - might as well get it all together. As for payment I'm happy to use Paypal or a bank xfer.
Cheers :youtheman:
HighFidelityGuy
03-02-2010, 12:56
Thanks to everyone for your replies. I've put all the details into a spreadsheet so I can keep track of what everyone wants and who's payed etc. I'll start PM'ing you all with payment details ASAP.
Ade, that's not a problem, I'll work out a price for just the caps and PM it to you along with my PayPal details.
Also, just so you all know, Gazjam (Gary) has asked to be added to the list. I've decided to allow him to join in but he'll be the last person. So no more requests to join the list this time round please. I may consider doing this again in the future though if there's enough interest.
Gary, if you're reading this please empty you PM box so I can PM you payment details! :ner: Cheers. :)
Dave,
PM box emptied!
Just to check, I'm not a headphone user so I'm
taking it the best option for my would be the Mutara regs with the Rubycon caps??
I wouldn't need the other bits?
Sorry for being thick! :)
Thanks for the inclusion on the list at the 11th hour...I gotta keep up with current events better!
*EDIT* I got the "full bhoona" set anyway! :)
Gaz
StanleyB
03-02-2010, 15:14
I got a quantity of Caiman PSU, which will be required if you fit the Murata regs and don't have a 15V supply. PM me once you have the regs fitted.
Hey thanks Stan, top man! (as usual)
Covenant
03-02-2010, 15:37
Regarding the Wilmas-is there any reason not to fit them? I only have cheapo headphones but may get better ones in the future. Are the Wilmas likely to show up shortcomings in cheap cans?
HighFidelityGuy
03-02-2010, 20:52
Just a quick update on the group buy:
I think I've now got back to everyone to confirm their orders and provide payment details. I've received some payments already so thanks to those people.
I've placed a bid on the Rubycon caps on ebay at the minimum price. When I got some last time I got outbid but the seller offered me a second chance at the minimum price, so we should hopefully get them for 99p plus postage. The auction ends in about 6 days so I'll let you know what happens with that.
Hopefully it will work out that the regs and wilma caps arrive from the US around the same time as the Rubycons. This will hopefully also give those of you that need to order a Caiman PSU chance to sort that out with Stan.
Cheers. :)
i want to try the ceramic cap + resistor mod in MLC5...
Q: what is wattage rating on the resistor...?...1/8, 1/4, 1/2 or more...?
TIA
i want to try the ceramic cap + resistor mod in MLC5...
Q: what is wattage rating on the resistor...?...1/8, 1/4, 1/2 or more...?
TIA
Doesn't matter in this position, lower would be smaller and easier to fit
Leo - as a recap, apart from the two regulator upgrades (together with 15V PSU) and the bipolar coupling caps, have you made any other upgrades to the Caiman that you consider to be worthwhile?
On the list for the Murata regs and just thinking ahead to the voltage that they need to come on song. If 15.2v is fed to the Caiman, only approx 14.5v actually reaches the reg position due to the diode in front of the input cap.
Any thoughts anyone (Leo can I ask what voltage did you go for when testing the superregs?).
Regards
Chris
Leo - as a recap, apart from the two regulator upgrades (together with 15V PSU) and the bipolar coupling caps, have you made any other upgrades to the Caiman that you consider to be worthwhile?
I've been trying to hold back on the Caiman mods tbh Martin (its proving to be hard too :lol: ) , you may have noticed I take things much further with the diy dacs.
I basically wanted to keep the Caiman at a stage closer to what most folks on here go to, it gives me a sort of reference.
Anyway for this dac I'd say the 15v psu, upgraded regs and coupling caps give the most noticeable improvement
You could try a few alternative op-amps in the line out section although the fitted LM4562's are very good, some prefer the THS4032 and a few like the OPA2132, these are quite easy to swap, you may prefer the fitted LM4562's though:)
On the list for the Murata regs and just thinking ahead to the voltage that they need to come on song. If 15.2v is fed to the Caiman, only approx 14.5v actually reaches the reg position due to the diode in front of the input cap.
Any thoughts anyone (Leo can I ask what voltage did you go for when testing the superregs?).
Regards
Chris
I used the 15v external psu when trying the regs so also had the same drop to 14.5v. I don't use the Murata's but their spec sheet recommends 15v input for the 12v types, I'd imagine the 14.5v is still enough headroom for the drop out voltage tbh. You obviously can't go higher than the 15v external because of the Caimans main DC input cap is rated at 16v max.
Theres the option of bypassing the diode, I've not tried it myself, the diode offers a bit of protection though
HighFidelityGuy
09-02-2010, 11:14
Hello all,
Just a quick update on the group buy.
I've now received payments from everyone taking part, so many thanks to everyone for that.
I'll double check how many of everything I need to order and hopefully get the Mouser order placed today.
Cheers. :)
HighFidelityGuy
09-02-2010, 12:45
Right, I've placed the Mouser order for the regs and Wilma caps. I'm not sure how long they will take to arrive but they're being shipped by FedEx International Priority, so that sounds quite fast.
There way be a slight issue with VAT which has got me worried. Right up until the last bit of the checkout stage it clearly stated that all customs and duty fees were included in the price. Then on the last page it asked for my VAT number "so that VAT could be calculated correctly". As I don't have one it sounds like there's the possibility I may get charged VAT by UK customs. So I'm not sure what to think about this. :scratch:
If VAT get's added on then that will increase the total cost of the order by about £32. So hopefully that won't happen. :(
I'll keep you all posted. :)
There way be a slight issue with VAT which has got me worried. Right up until the last bit of the checkout stage it clearly stated that all customs and duty fees were included in the price. Then on the last page it asked for my VAT number "so that VAT could be calculated correctly". As I don't have one it sounds like there's the possibility I may get charged VAT by UK customs. So I'm not sure what to think about this. :scratch:
:)
I previously emailed Mouser about the same thing and got the reply below:
Thank you for your email. All goods are shipped from Texas, USA. If you choose UPS for shipping, VAT will be added at customs, UPS will pay customs and then bill you. If you choose FedEx International Priority service then by not adding a VAT number to your order, Mouser will add on UK VAT to your invoice as we clear the goods ‘mid-air’ when shipping with our FedEx account. Using FedEx is the easiest and cheapest method as you will only be charged VAT on the goods and will not incur any additional administration costs by the courier.
So yes it looks like we will need to pay VAT on the parts. Don't worry I for one will see you right as I am sure will everyone else.
Regards
Chris
No worries Dave, depending on how many of us ordered the extra wont be too much per head.
Im sure we'll all step up if need be. :)
Gaz.,
HighFidelityGuy
09-02-2010, 14:28
Balls. :doh:
Thanks for the info.
I'll wait and see what happens and let you all know accordingly.
For those that ordered 1 pair of regs and Wilmas the VAT should be £2.88 I think. That's based on me not charging any VAT on the Rubycons or shipping which I obviously won't do as they already include VAT.
That means that the regs will be approx £9.48 each inc VAT but excluding delivery. That's still significantly cheaper than Farnell so it's not too bad I guess.
I'll work out all the VAT figures for everyone once I've got the details from Mouser and let you all know in due course.
Apologies for this slight cockup. :( Hopefully the rest of the rest of this will go a little more smoothly. :)
Don't worry Dave,
Still very happy with the deal and thanks for sorting it for us. The regs are still far cheaper than I could have bought them for.
Regards
Chris
HighFidelityGuy
12-02-2010, 11:34
There's some good news and some bad news.
Bad news first:
I got outbid on the Rubycon auction and I didn't get offered a 2nd chance as the seller has now run out. Apparently these caps are quite rare which I hadn't realised. So it looks like it's going to be impossible to get hold of any within the next week. :(
So I started frantically hunting round for alternatives and found THESE (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=521-1766&x=0&y=0). They are identical to the Rubycon's in size and spec with the exception of the max operating temperature, which is 85 on the Rubycon's and 105 on these. So in theory the RS ones are more rugged I guess. They are also as near as makes no difference the same price. (They work out a couple of pence more expensive with VAT so I'll not charge any extra).
I've run this past Stan and he's given them his seal of approval.
Thanks Stan. :cool:
So I've ordered a bunch of these to fulfill everyones orders.
I hope this is ok with everyone? If anyone would overwhelmingly prefer to use the Rubycons for some reason then please let me know as I'm using the few I have left to supplement the order, so some of you will be getting them anyway. It's first come first served on this though. If nobody asks for the Rubycon's I'll assign them randomly. Just to clarify on this; I'll make up as many full orders as possible out of the Rubycon's and then use the RS caps. I won't mix cap makes. The RS caps should be arriving on Monday.
I apologise for this other slight cockup. I've done my best to resolve the issue and hopefully the next bit of news will cheer you all up.
The regs have arrived! Yay. :mex:
Oh and the Wilmas but they're less exciting.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Beresford%20DACs/th_RegsandWilmas.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/DTM2000/Hi-Fi/Beresford%20DACs/?action=view¤t=RegsandWilmas.jpg)
Click to make bigger.
Look at the little fellas, they're so cute. :dummy:
£1 used for size comparison.
They look much smaller in person than I imagined they would be. So they'll certainly fit in the case without any bother.
Once the RS caps arrive I'll start packing everything up ready to ship out.
Mouser sent me a new invoice with the VAT charge. It's £34.38 all together. So I'll work out how much each person owes individually and get back to you about this ASAP.
That's all for now. :)
Covenant
12-02-2010, 12:30
Hi Dave,
Just to confirm I am not bothered which make I get. Thanks again for all your work on this, it really is appreciated.
Rubycons for me if possible Dave, but as I was late to the Party in getting my name on the list, I'll respectively back away if any of the early adopters wish them. :)
+1 What Jerry said, thanks for your efforts Dave.
If you can't get Rubycon electrolytics then I can recommend Nichicon which are readily available and sound excellent.
smurfbrain
12-02-2010, 13:20
Dave I have some spare Rubycons if you need them. I have to dig them out and check how many i have left.
I hate to tell you this but those RS capacitors are made by CapXon, the very Chinese manufacturer with a very bad reputation as a result of their capacitors being used in all the early Sky HD boxes made by Thomson that failed within a year. I know because I had to replace all the CapXon capacitors in my Sky HD PSU. I would avoid them.
Nichicons are great!
HighFidelityGuy
12-02-2010, 13:52
Ok, I've had a couple of requests for Rubycon's so I think that will use up all the ones I have.
It looks like Nichicon do make some non-polar caps with the right specs but I've so far not found anywhere in the UK that stocks them. Most places don't seem to have a very good range of non-polar electrolytic caps despite their availability from manufacturers. I guess it's supply and demand at work.
If anyone can find any suitable caps in stock anywhere in the UK that they think will sound better than the RS ones then feel free to post a link and I'll take a look.
Cheers.
They are available from Parts Connexion. I know they are abroad but their service is fast and pricing low. I have used these caps and can recommend them for sound quality: they are part of the MUSE range and designed for audio.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_nichicon_es.html
StanleyB
12-02-2010, 17:03
Guys the Rubycons are proving hard to source right now. It's like a replay of the LM4562 and THS4032 situation when AoS members started buying up every bit of stock on the open market...
I have a few left, and I am sure a few other AoS members have also got left over stock of the 47uF. Let's pool our resources together I say and help each other out. Let me do a precise count of how many I have, and I'll chuck them in the ring to add to whatever Dave has in his pile. I don't need any payments for mine, and can even post FOC if it is within the UK. But the lucky recipient must be selected by Dave since only he knows what quantity he is short of.
HighFidelityGuy
12-02-2010, 17:54
They are available from Parts Connexion. I know they are abroad but their service is fast and pricing low. I have used these caps and can recommend them for sound quality: they are part of the MUSE range and designed for audio.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_ele_nichicon_es.html
Thanks Martin. I guess this can be a backup plan. :)
Guys the Rubycons are proving hard to source right now. It's like a replay of the LM4562 and THS4032 situation when AoS members started buying up every bit of stock on the open market...
I have a few left, and I am sure a few other AoS members have also got left over stock of the 47uF. Let's pool our resources together I say and help each other out. Let me do a precise count of how many I have, and I'll chuck them in the ring to add to whatever Dave has in his pile. I don't need any payments for mine, and can even post FOC if it is within the UK. But the lucky recipient must be selected by Dave since only he knows what quantity he is short of.
Awesome, thanks very much Stan. :cool:
I've just counted up and I've got 18 Rubycon's spare. So I can supply 3 people.
Cheers.
smurfbrain
12-02-2010, 18:42
have 12 spare caps
Hey guys,
oh, something happend in the last two days! Nice to see the first parts are in ;-)
-
Many thanks Dave for your efforts and very thanks to all of you to organize a 'plan b'! Would be great if we all could get some nice little rubycons ...
-
Cherrs!
cz
If there are any people having second thoughts (fat chance) then I'm always available as the 56th man.
Managed to swap the Murata's in yesterday (did the non polars about 2 weeks ago). Not sure if the regs need any burn in but the sound is very "pure" compared to before. The treble appears lighter and the bass a little recessed.
Stan & Leo did you find that the regs settle down after a few days?
Warning. Watch it with the 5v reg as the tracks are both top and underside of the board and I managed to lift the middle one off the underside of the board. Appears to still work though.
Regards
Chris
I've not tried the Murata's myself, I use something else
BTW measure all the grounds from regulator to dacs ground just to make sure its a proper good contact
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 10:03
Managed to swap the Murata's in yesterday (did the non polars about 2 weeks ago). Not sure if the regs need any burn in but the sound is very "pure" compared to before. The treble appears lighter and the bass a little recessed.
The regs did require burn in. If you got any THS4032 lying about, now is the time to dig them out again and find out what they can really do. I had one of my neighbours ringing my bell recently. He was complaining that the bass was shaking the contents of his glass cabinets:lol:. First time any neighbour complained. I was using Murata with THS4032 and Rubycon at the time.
The sound is indeed very pure. I can pick up details previously hidden. I can hear ego and reverberations far better. Vocal and instruments separation has also improved.
Stan,
would you reckon the 4032 would be "better" that the LM4562 with the Regs and Rubycons?
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 10:40
It's horses for courses I reckon. The THS4032CD is however my favourite pick right now, since it also firms up the bass on my Sennheiser HD800 headphones.
My LM4562HA are in my otherwise unmodded TC-7520, which I use for headphone listening from my laptop. I shall give them a try against the THS4032CD and see how they stack up. In the past I found them to have the bass of the THS4032CD, and a less metallic treble than the LM4562NA.
Thanks Stan, would be good to know.
I get the feeling the new regs and caps will shake up the opamp tweaking again..
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 12:27
I get the feeling the new regs and caps will shake up the opamp tweaking again..
That's also my impression. But hey, life would be boring if it was too predictable. I have been searching for my NE5532FE (as fitted on the Marantz CD94 and Philips CD960), so that I can see how they sound.
is that the ones you used on the original 7520?
I've a spare you could have if it helps.
StanleyB
14-02-2010, 12:51
Nope, the NE5532FE are now classified as unobtainable. They are special ceramic encapsulated types with superior performance to the standard NE5532. They were only made by Philips as far as I am aware, and used on high-end equipment only. Performance wise they have been surpassed by other opamps since then, but I found them to be unbeatable when paired in a TDA154X based NOS DAC.
HighFidelityGuy
15-02-2010, 10:21
have 12 spare caps
Thanks Martin,
That's 30 between the two of us, so we only need another 6 to complete the orders.
Does anyone else have any left over?
Covenant
15-02-2010, 11:36
Thanks Martin,
That's 30 between the two of us, so we only need another 6 to complete the orders.
Does anyone else have any left over?
Has Stan checked in his drawers yet? (Ooh missus!:lol:)
I have some Rubycons left too, 18 of them I believe.
Well done guys, nice to see you've almost reached the needed number for your group buy with the help of others.
If you was really struggling those not using the headphone out could just change the ones for the fixed/variable out , anyway looks like your almost there
StanleyB
15-02-2010, 16:05
That's 30 between the two of us, so we only need another 6 to complete the orders. Does anyone else have any left over?
I can only find four. PM me who to send it to.
Thanks Martin,
That's 30 between the two of us, so we only need another 6 to complete the orders.
Does anyone else have any left over?
I've got 10 rubycons left, so if needed
Ron
StanleyB
16-02-2010, 11:24
I am looking for a couple more to try on the TC-7510 and see if it also benefits from doing the MOD21 with the Rubycon. SO I might be in the market for a few extra one's myself:rolleyes:.
smurfbrain
16-02-2010, 13:06
As I offered spare caps towards group buy cause, Dave has a first choice. If there are any left you can have them Stan. Also have some 10 x 33uf16v left which were ordered by mistake.
The Murata's have been in since Saturday and sounding good. The biggest change I have found is the clarity or the "pure" sound as I keep saying. Depth of the image is also better and not so much in yer face as per the Naim style.
I like the changes and well worth the £20.00 or so to do (I had done the Rubycon's a few weeks ago).
Please bear in mind I am using a purposely built linear supply set at 15v so may be different if using the SMPS. Also got the standard LM4562NA's in as well.
Regards
Shanedudddy2
17-02-2010, 10:46
Im trying out this
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270520421091&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
and the same for OP627, not sure what to expect, I`ll let people know.
Don't see why people like the 4562, I really don't like it much at all, the mids are pretty great, but the bass sounds pretty bad and the highs sound too sharp..imo.
Had AD826NZ or something in before and they were pretty good :)
Don't see why people like the 4562, I really don't like it much at all, the mids are pretty great, but the bass sounds pretty bad and the highs sound too sharp..imo.
I think mileage varies considerably with op-amps depending on your digital source. Gaz hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the other day that he thought the changes in regs and caps would kick off people experimenting with different op-amps again.
Up until last week, I agreed with what you have just said Shane. I used to find the 4562's very "boom and tizz" and not very refined, a bit fatiguing on extended listening too. I think that's why I preferred my 7510 with the op-amps removed over my Caiman with op-amps, but that was from the optical output from the Mac.
Now however, with the HiFace feeding the DAC instead of the Mac's optical port, the 4562's are back on top and the 7510 has been shown the door from the main system. Compared to before, the bass is well controlled and has much more texture and tune and the treble is clean and sweet.
I've not even performed the regulator upgrades yet, so I think this just illustrates how poor the optical out from the Mac actually is (at very least on 2007/8 models). This is something I have suspected for a long time.
Shanedudddy2
17-02-2010, 21:03
hmm well I`m using USB connection from my Windows PC into the caiman, so perhaps jitter could be the issue here. I have been meaning to order a hiface, but they are out until early March grr :( unless anyone has one they wish to sell or better yet modded/mod and sell to me :P??
What's this hiface you chaps speak of?
smurfbrain
17-02-2010, 21:28
Hiface is a 24/192k USB to spdif converter price around £100
link to Leo's thread
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4880
Shanedudddy2
17-02-2010, 22:48
Makes for a really good transport I read, which seems to make a big difference for the Caiman, but I am dubious until i hear for myself :)
Hiface is a 24/192k USB to spdif converter price around £100
link to Leo's thread
http://www.theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4880
For a cheap and easy way of getting Hi Rez from the pc its a great little device and a good performer for the price, no idea if it betters whatever your currently using as a transport though for 44.1k
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 07:35
Is an upsampling converter really that much better than the REDBOOK spec 44.1KHz?
Covenant
18-02-2010, 07:42
Im trying out this
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270520421091&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
and the same for OP627, not sure what to expect, I`ll let people know.
Don't see why people like the 4562, I really don't like it much at all, the mids are pretty great, but the bass sounds pretty bad and the highs sound too sharp..imo.
Had AD826NZ or something in before and they were pretty good :)
I think a few people will be interested in your thoughts on these op-amps.
Have you done the MCL5/6 mod and as a result fitted an additional capacitor?
Is an upsampling converter really that much better than the REDBOOK spec 44.1KHz?
Well, it depends. In this particular case, there are two distinct things:
- The conversion to S/PDIF (good thing for average/long cable runs)
- The upsampling
The upsampling in itself (when it's well made) may have some advantages. This is the view of Giuseppe Rampino (from Northstar) :
First of all, let's say the upsampling method CAN'T improve anything. The sound of a digitally upsampled DAC is better because it is the non-upsampled one to be worse.
For, let's see what happens to a standard 44.1 kHz digital signal when it is converted directly by a DAC. Before going into analogue, the digital signal crosses a digital filter that oversamples it (normally 8 times, 8x oversampling, as usually called) and a second digital filter with very high slope that cuts off all the garbage above a certain frequency, quite close to the audio band.
Once the signal has been converted into analogue, it crosses another filter, an analogue one, normally of the 2nd or 3rd kind, that introduces phase rotations into the audible spectrum.
Now, how can we consider the effect of a phase rotation in the time domain?
Let's suppose to have a musical instrument that plays its fundamental tone and its harmonics. The first ones normally are reproduced fine...but the higher order ones are delivered to your ears with a phase rotation (with respect to the first ones) and hence with a time delay that can be heard as distorion.
What happens with upsampling? The standard 44.1 kHz digital stream is interpolated and the samples are calculated as the original signal had a 192 kHz sampling rate. BUT!!!! This process adds NOTHING to the original signal!!!! Even at 192 kHz the signal is still extended till 20 kHz!
The difference now is that the signal crosses digital filters centered at 96 kHz and the following analogue filter will be centered far from the upper limit of the audio band (actually, near 96 kHz!!!).
This means the analogue signal coming out of the DAC will be more faithful to the original one in the time domain (less phase rotations, that is).
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 08:10
No disrespect to Giuseppe, but I beg to differ on his interpretation of the facts.
His claim that nothing is added to the signal, because it is still only up to 20KHz is incorrect. D to A decoding does not suddenly drop off at 20KHz. It extends well into the MHz range in some cases and needs careful filtering after 20KHz.
The other thing is that upsampling is done in the digital domain, not the analogue one. If people are concerned that signals should be bit perfect, then upsampling is loaded with imperfect bits.
I am not against the use of upsampling, just as I am not against mp3 lossy compression. But for critical listening with bit perfect accuracy and adhering to the Red Book principle, surely upsampling is just another lossy format that adds data, compared to mp3 that removes data.
I agree that the D/A decoding extends over 20kHz, but the recorded signal part of it is up to 22KHz. The rest is noise inherent to the D/A process.
I guess that there's nothing "perfect" about D/A processing anyway: I know that upsampling is controversial (Dan Lavry is against too, if I'm not mistaken - see http://www.lavryengineering.com/documents/Sampling_Theory.pdf).
In practice, where an upsampling switch is available, the result is slightly more "relaxed" (without this meaning that some details are lost in the process) when upsampling is engaged. I agree that there's nothing bit-perfect in upsampling (I remember also having said that to Keith, one day), but I guess it's simply a way of addressing digital aliasing. I'm not a specialist, of course, but that's my understanding.
Have you tried using an resampling/upsampling chip with one of your dacs ? Perhaps it could be worth it ?
Just to add. I'm not using the HiFace as an upsampler - only as a USB -> SPDIF converter for which I think it does an excellent job and far exceeds what the Mac is capable of on its own. The vast majority of music I own is 44.1/16 and is always output at this rate.
Ever since switching to a Mac for music I was always aware that it's digital output never sounded as good to my ears as the optical or coax from my big old PC, but it's size and the amount of fan noise it made won it a place in the system. Now I know that the Mac is perfectly capable of a 'bit-perfect' signal so I assumed that the quality of the SPDIF signal itself from the Mac just wasn't particularly clean.
So when Keith from Purite offered me a loan of a HiFace to try on the Mac I jumped at it. The improvement took seconds to realise and apart from a few A/B comparisons initially, I wouldn't touch the Mac's optical output with a bargepole again. The major differences are in the frequency extremes - bass is incredibly tight, controlled and tuneful and treble is sweet an unfatiguing. By comparison the Mac sounds wooly and monotonic in the bass and cymbal crashes sound like someone dropping glass onto a tiled floor. Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but you get the idea ;-).
I would seriously recommend *ANYONE* using a Mac as a digital source to a DAC to try one of these things. You will notice the difference straight away, certainly if you're using a 2007/8 model Mac like I am.
It wasn't until getting the HiFace that I realised what the Caiman is truly capable of - plus my Caiman is still in an unmodded state presently.
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 08:47
Have you tried using an resampling/upsampling chip with one of your dacs ? Perhaps it could be worth it ?
I have tried one of the TI chips, and found that the 64X oversampling Wolfson chip as used in the Caiman gives a far superior result that I prefer. The upsamplng process reminded my of the DBX decoding system. If you listen even casually, you can hear the signal 'pumping'. i.e the attack and decay times were noticeably different and softer compared to the non-upsampled original. It isn't so obvious on low sensitivity speakers and valve amps though. They soften up the signals by default anyhow.
I have tried one of the TI chips, and found that the 64X oversampling Wolfson chip as used in the Caiman gives a far superior result that I prefer. The upsamplng process reminded my of the DBX decoding system. If you listen even casually, you can hear the signal 'pumping'. i.e the attack and decay times were noticeably different and softer compared to the non-upsampled original. It isn't so obvious on low sensitivity speakers and valve amps though. They soften up the signals by default anyhow.
Thanks for the info, Stan. ;)
I'm not a great fan of 44.1 upsampled , as mentioned when trying the Hiface , with 96k and 192k I didn't like the effect although proper recorded direct 176.4 stuff sounded brilliant
The Hiface wasn't upsampling 44.1 when I tried it, any 96k 192k material was downloaded in those formats, I'd imagine most of those files had aready been upsampled
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 08:56
For those of you who are wondering which upsampling chip to use in any DAC you are designing for hobby purposes or otherwise, try the SRC4192 from TI. It doesn't need any special drivers.
All I now need is a driverless High Speed Audio USB chip:eyebrows:. The only ones I can find details on all need drivers.
Or the SRC4392 with built in receiver and ASRC
For those of you who are wondering which upsampling chip to use in any DAC you are designing for hobby purposes or otherwise, try the SRC4192 from TI. It doesn't need any special drivers.
All I now need is a driverless High Speed Audio USB chip:eyebrows:. The only ones I can find details on all need drivers.
They need to pull their fingers out with the high speed USB chips Stan:)
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 09:13
I have t agree with you Leo. I am very keen to try it out in a new DAC as soon as I can get my hands on any production sample.
I have t agree with you Leo. I am very keen to try it out in a new DAC as soon as I can get my hands on any production sample.
Well if I find anything I'll let you know, surely it won't be too long now before somebody releases one :scratch:
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 10:30
I have been receiving notifications of apparent production samples since 2006, but each of them got their limitation. One comes with free drivers, but only works on Windows.
I have tried one of the TI chips, and found that the 64X oversampling Wolfson chip as used in the Caiman gives a far superior result that I prefer.
Stan, in what way is oversampling significantly different from upsampling? I would have thought the end result would be almost the same?
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 11:37
Stan, in what way is oversampling significantly different from upsampling? I would have thought the end result would be almost the same?
You could say that oversampling is equivalent to distilling alcohol, whilst upsampling is the equivalent of adding water to the alcohol until the bottle is full to the brim.
If you upsample a 44.1KHz signal to 192KHz you have to add 192 - 44.1 = 147.9KHz of extra data in the upsampled signal.
I understand that, but isn't 64x oversampling adding 63 x 44.1kHz = 2.8M more samples?
StanleyB
18-02-2010, 12:02
The 64X oversampling is cutting the existing data into smaller sizes. Its the equivalent of modulating an audio signal with a high frequency carrier like in AM or FM. The decoded OS signal is still the same in shape as the original. An upsampled signal is a close approximation of the original, but not the same. The extra 0s added to stretch a 44.1KHz to 192KHz make a big difference. Get a digital storage scope and do some tests with waveforms through both methods of sampling. The theory is getting in the way of the practical outcome.
Thanks for that, makes sense now.
Any word at all about the Rubycons Dave?
HighFidelityGuy
21-02-2010, 15:53
Any word at all about the Rubycons Dave?
Not just yet I'm affraid. :( I've only just got round to trying to purchase the remaining spares off the AoS members that still have some. I was ill for the first half of this week and then really busy for the rest. Hopefully it won't be long now. Apologies again for the delay.
Hey no worries Dave, just thinking out loud. :)
Hope your feeling bette mate.
Gaz.
Covenant
22-02-2010, 19:14
Hey no worries Dave, just thinking out loud. :)
Hope your feeling bette mate.
Gaz.
Thats a bit personal isn't it Gaz-telling him to go and feel Bette-she might object!
Gawd Jerry, your the third most pedantic person I know!
Typo tastic....that's my sausage fingers posting from the Ipod again!
Sorry Bette if your out there! :)
HighFidelityGuy
25-02-2010, 12:02
Lol, I missed that classic typo. Unfortunately I don't know Bette, so she'll have to entertain her self. :lol:
I do have a quick update on the group buy though...
I've managed to source some more Rubycon's via Smurfbrain and burgdus, so many many thanks to them for helping out. :cheers:
So providing they all get through the post ok I will have enough to fulfill all the orders plus a few spare. I'm going to send some of those to Stan and if there's any left after that I'll let you know.
I've also let everyone know how much they owe for the VAT where applicable and I've started receiving payments. So many thanks to everyone for that. :)
I've so far shipped out four orders, at least one more will go out today, or three if the other two people send me their addresses in time. The others should hopefully go out next week.
I've tried to pack everything as well as I could using anti-static packaging where possible and making sure I was wearing an anti-static wrist strap while handling components. Please be careful when you open the packaging as the Wilma caps are very small and easy to loose. I used small brown Jiffy bags which are labeled as fragile for the outer packaging so you know what to look for. Hopefully Royal Mail won't smash them to bits. :rolleyes:
Thats it for now. :)
Great effort Dave, many thanks!
Cheers too to those that helped out with the Rubycons.
HighFidelityGuy
25-02-2010, 15:49
I managed to get three more orders out today, so that just leaves one which can't go out until I've got the last few Rubycon's. So the end is in sight. :)
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