7520 Caiman vs orginal 7520? [Archive]

theone999

23-11-2009, 11:34

Hey guys:

I haven't followed audio threads for nearly half a year now and flicking through some today, found that there is now a 7520 Caiman edition.

Barring reading all 60 odd pages of that thread, can anyone here tell me their impressions of a Caimans vs the original 7520? I have PMed Stanley regarding upgrade options, though feel free to post anything about it here.

I have the original 7520 unmodded and with original power supply (not upgraded).

My system consists of Adam Audio A7 speakers, SVS PC12+ subwoofer, Ixos RCA & USB cables. Headphones is actually a pair of ACS T2 custom IEMs. USB mode with speakers+sub gets the most usage, then optical and headphones.

Thanks

trailer

23-11-2009, 20:51

The Wolfson DAC makes a HUGE difference.

J B

23-11-2009, 21:45

Is there a thread anywhere on what mods actually went into the Caiman? Even better a guide on modding your own way there from a 7520 :P

Gazjam

24-11-2009, 13:26

Hi JB,
i can also say the Caiman is the FAR better deal if your buying new.
Dont faff about with mods if you dont have to, just get a Caiman.

You'll get the new PSU with it which Stan specifically designed to maximise teh Dacs sound quality.

Hope this helps,
Gaz.

theone999

24-11-2009, 21:57

Is there a thread anywhere on what mods actually went into the Caiman? Even better a guide on modding your own way there from a 7520 :P

Well if you look at Tirna Electronics site:

http://www.tirnaelectronics.co.uk/services/Audio.shtml

It implies the upgrades were the chip, opamps and Class A output configuration.

I also rang them today, they said modification would take about 1 days. Then they'll send it out. So pretty fast turn around, especially with special delivery.

Shanedudddy2

25-11-2009, 02:43

'The new limited edition “Caimen” DAC from Beresford has a class"A" output stage. We think this is for the headphone output but it may be on both outputs. We have been asked by several people if we have an upgrade which would take the 7520 to full Caimen spec. We cannot do this as we cannot perform an upgrade to either of the dual op-amp based circuits to make them class “A” configuration outputs. To do this would probably require a redesign of the PCB. We can only perform the Wolfson DAC chip upgrade and upgrade of the dual op-amps to better dual op-amps as detailed above. This is not the same as providing an upgrade to a class “A” output configuration. You’ll have to buy a “Caimen” to get that. '

You might want to read that bit again.

Covenant

25-11-2009, 07:55

You have just let Stans big secret out-he will be after your blood!:)

StanleyB

25-11-2009, 08:13

lovejoy

26-11-2009, 13:26

The Caiman is more of a precision instrument that takes no prisoners. It's like the SAS or SEALS in terms of the way it handles the audio bits it captures in digital format.

That would explain why I've had to start re-ripping all of my CDs in Apple Lossless. MP3s just don't come up to scratch any more.

theone999

02-12-2009, 11:38

I have now received my modified 7520 and the upgraded PSU for it. The difference that now remains between my unit and a Caiman is the power architecture, what differences that could make, I'll never know.

But the 7520 with the new wolfson WM8716 chip + LM4562 opamps + new PSU as compared with all stock componenets seems to to me to be this.

The sound seems smoother and the presentation / soundfield seems more well rounded and subtle in comparison. It's like the entire frequency spectrum seems to be more blended.

In particular, some voices seemed to be more "crystal" in the bad sense before, possibly due to my speaker choice but now it just sounds normal. As bass goes, it seems more subtle than before to my ears, though it's a good thing as the bass frequency response curve <250hz have not actually changed (I have measuring equipment).

But overall, noticeable improvements.

(above were impressions from rca pre out with speakers + sub, can't comment on headphone amplifier as my custom in ear monitors are in service centre being repaired)

Aturion

22-03-2010, 21:21

Hello everyone :)

I'm new here, I was about to order a DAC and my researches lead me here, I was hesitating between the 7520 and the caiman, the main use will be listening to mp3 192kbps+ music with my computer and a AKG K701 headphone, I want to buy a beresford because of the built in headphone amplifier.

so the questions are :

-When using 192 kbps mp3 wich one will sound better (if any)
-When using lossless wich one will sound better (if any)

if the difference is minor I would go with the 7520 as it is cheaper and may save me the hassle of reriping my cds into flac, if the caiman sounds really better than the 7520 when using flac then I may go with the caiman

Thanks for any input :)

Stratmangler

22-03-2010, 21:54

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=82094&postcount=8

ZebuTheOxen

23-03-2010, 12:38

The 7520 is 'easier' to listen to, especially with poorer recordings.

I prefer the Caiman. You don't get 701s for their sound signature :)

Aturion

23-03-2010, 17:03

Strat, thank you but I've seen (and read) this post, I was looking for some additional opinions

Zebu : thank you, I guess you mean smoother by saying easier, sorry, I'm not very much into audio slang, especially in english, may I ask why do you prefer the caiman ? I don't mind to do some reriping if resolution is really superior

For the moment, I think I'll go with the 7520, I don't know many audio aficionados so I guess I may never have the opportunity to compare both myself, and the 7520 seems to be a bargain for the price, but still I'm curious and guys here seems to be helpful :)

Thanks :)

ZebuTheOxen

24-03-2010, 09:38

Personally I prefer it because the resolution is better. Everything sounds clearer.
The K701s feel like they have less bass at first which takes some getting used to.
You will hear parts of the music (entire passages, noises in the background) which never seemed to be part of the music before. Like shining a torch into the far end of a dark room.

You get what you pay for really!

StanleyB

24-03-2010, 10:42

The K701s feel like they have less bass at first which takes some getting used to.
When you have time I would like you to pass by with your K701 and DAC so we can compare the tweaks I have done to drive the K701 better. My K701 now sounds better in the bass than my HD800:eek:.

Aturion

24-03-2010, 17:46

lol, I'm lost now, when using the k701 straight away with my computer analog output I certainly feel a lack of bass, that's one of the main reasons I was searching for a dedicated amp

Stanley, does the caiman perform the same way regarding bass as the 7520 ? what mods did you do to make the bass sound better ? is it the caiman that you moded or the 7520 ?

Also, can I order an already "tweaked" caiman ? (I may pay for the modifications if needed, I can't do any soldering myself)

Sorry to be this sticky, I don't mind paying for the caiman, or paying some more extra to have quality, but I don't want to pay twice, I want something that I would keep and use with my k701 wich I already like

Thanks again

dave2010

24-03-2010, 18:04

Aturion

I don't know what the 7520 sounds like, but the opinions seem to be that it doesn't show up the faults in recordings as much as the Caiman. Some recordings sound awful with the Caiman - that's usually because they are awful. Depends how much that bothers you of course, and also what kind of music you listen to. Recently I listened to some old mono recordings of orchestral music, and even in spite of the rather dim recording, there was definitely some benefit in listening on headphones via the Caiman.

I'd recommend going straight to the Caiman, but if you're not sure, it looks as though the 7520s have a pretty good second hand market (for sellers), so if you tried one and then wanted to swap for a Caiman I think you wouldn't lose much - maybe even gain.

FWIW I've actually found it's quite often bearable to listen to music via Napster or Spotify - though not always. If Iwanted to sweeten the tone a bit I'd probably take the output direct from my SB3 - which is very good, but I hope I'm not succumbing to Emperor's new clothes if I say there's more detail through the Caiman.

Aturion

25-03-2010, 09:56

Thanks Dave & everyone

Decision made, I'll be ordering a caiman :)

ZebuTheOxen

25-03-2010, 10:24

When you have time I would like you to pass by with your K701 and DAC so we can compare the tweaks I have done to drive the K701 better. My K701 now sounds better in the bass than my HD800:eek:.I'm not too worried, I was listening to the The Beatles remastered stereo recordings from their Abbey Road album and the percussion sounds fantastic. It's something you get used to :)

Stratmangler

25-03-2010, 12:32

I'm not too worried, I was listening to the The Beatles remastered stereo recordings from their Abbey Road album and the percussion sounds fantastic. It's something you get used to :)

If you know where to get a mono copy of that album snap it up - you'll make a fortune;)

I'm very happy with my Caiman - I use mine via the variable outputs directly into a power amplifier.
I don't use headphones.

ZebuTheOxen

26-03-2010, 10:08

I got mine second hand off eBay.

You can get them new from;
http://www.thebeatlesonline.co.uk/productdetail.jsp?productPK=unittest-wZ7SEgX5W5X7UsnjqN3IEb-1
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beatles-Mono/dp/B002BSHXJA

Sorry to disappoint if you thought I was talking about the vinyl ;)

Stratmangler

26-03-2010, 11:13

It's all right Tom - I was being very pendantic. Abbey Road never had a mono mix released.
Every album The Beatles released up to and including The Beatles (The White Album) was intended to be heard in glorious mono.
The stereo mixes were always an afterthought and never had the same degree of care and attention lavished upon them.
So now you can see why I made my comment about getting hold of the mono - if you can find one snap it up because it will be worth a fortune;)

ZebuTheOxen

26-03-2010, 14:42

Always an education on this forum!
These albums are a good 15 years older than me though, so I guess that's understandable.

I don't fancy shelling out another 100 odd quid for the mono mixes, as lovely as they might be! :)

dave2010

26-03-2010, 18:47

Aturion

Do come back here and let us know how you get on. Stan gets things out pretty quickly once you place your order, though you may want to run yours in for a few days. Apparently this really does improve things - though most of us have take Stan's word for it that this is reproducible, and you may find that you take a day or two to get used to the sound. Hopefully you'll hear a lot more detail than with most sources, but if you don't, let us know that too.

tunepirate

01-04-2010, 16:23

I still prefer my TC-7520 for use via USB to my headphone. It tends to hide the errors in poorly converted mp3 files downloaded from the net, and other audio misdemeanors.
The Caiman is more of a precision instrument that takes no prisoners. It's like the SAS or SEALS in terms of the way it handles the audio bits it captures in digital format.

I've never had the experience that a better product makes a bad file sound worse. To my ears this sounds like the 7520 actually could be better product.

Caiman might have more detail, but those details are not coming forth as they should if they make a file sound worse.

It sounds like the music is flowing more smooth and correct from the 7520 if it's easier to listen to with bad files!:scratch:

Stratmangler

01-04-2010, 17:52

I've never had the experience that a better product makes a bad file sound worse. To my ears this sounds like the 7520 actually could be better product.

Caiman might have more detail, but those details are not coming forth as they should if they make a file sound worse.

It sounds like the music is flowing more smooth and correct from the 7520 if it's easier to listen to with bad files!:scratch:

What's so strange about a superior product showing an inferior music file for what it is ?
Your logic is flawed and your conclusion is strange to say the least :mental:

Themis

01-04-2010, 17:58

I've never had the experience that a better product makes a bad file sound worse. To my ears this sounds like the 7520 actually could be better product.

Caiman might have more detail, but those details are not coming forth as they should if they make a file sound worse.

It sounds like the music is flowing more smooth and correct from the 7520 if it's easier to listen to with bad files!:scratch:
Hi Cristian, I think that Stan means that imperfections and compression artifacts in MP3 files are more easily revealed through the Caiman, that's why the Caiman is more of a "precision instrument".
The 7520 fails (sometimes) to give enough level of detail to reveal these artifacts. ;)

Stratmangler

01-04-2010, 18:14

Thanks Dimitri - your way of putting things is rather more diplomatic than mine;)

Ali Tait

01-04-2010, 18:21

:lol:

DrMartin

01-04-2010, 22:19

I would definitely support the notion that 'better' equipement makes bad recordings sound worse. Since upgrading my amp and adding a DAC to an old Sony CDP, detail retrieval from CD has moved up to a whole new level - and that is with a Quad 909 which many people say is a bit muddled in the HF. Unfortunately this level of detail isn't always welcome because of the poor quality of some of the recordings - especially some of the more recent offerings.

Overall, however, I like the analytical approach. I like, for example, to be able to hear changes in the noise floor when tracks are being switched in and out of a mix by the engineer.

What I don't like is the generally 'aggressive' and 'toppy' nature of the tonal balance of so many new recordings. It bears no resemblence to the sound one generally hears at a gig so why do so many engineers produce this 'tinny' sound? surely it sounds even worse through cheap 'personal' ear-phones on an ipod? I wouldn't know because I've never listened to one.

Aturion

02-04-2010, 02:54

So, would the next step be offering 2 or more "positions" in a DAC going from smooth sounding to ultra precise : p to adapt to the source ?

Themis

02-04-2010, 06:12

So, would the next step be offering 2 or more "positions" in a DAC going from smooth sounding to ultra precise : p to adapt to the source ?
A defeatable upsampling ? I doubt, Stan doesn't like upsampling. ;)

dave2010

02-04-2010, 07:07

I've never had the experience that a better product makes a bad file sound worse. "Bad" is a qualitative term, relative, and needs to be taken in context. Years ago we had a cheap boombox [possibly a Sony] and were living in the US. I recorded the Messiah (a performance from the UK) off the radio from public radio on it - a good performance I recall - on to tape - which I still have somewhere. Played back on the same unit it sounded OK. I think it still sounds OK-ish if you take an output to a hi-fi system from a similar, lowish grade boombox.

Later, back in the UK, I bought a Sony cassette deck - and a good tape on that deck can hardly be distinguished from CD or original source. Playing that Messiah tape on that deck is dreadful. There is background noise - just about everything is wrong. Horrible experience!

Does that mean that the Sony cassette deck was inferior? No - of course not. The deck just reveals all the problems with the recording. The tape can be enjoyed, but only if played back on a cheap cassette unit. Trying to tweak the sound via the expensive deck does not work.

What might actually work would be to record to digital, and then do editing, and some of the unfortunate detail might then be removed - or alternatively just record to digital from a cheap boombox http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/10481.gif

dave2010

02-04-2010, 07:09

Hey guys - how do I get the smiley thingies in to the posts? I tried, but it's put a URL in - not what I wanted - previous post just before this one.

Stratmangler

02-04-2010, 07:19

Hit the "post reply" button when you want to make a post and there are a load of smilies available to the side of the box.

Are you using the "quick reply" box ? :scratch:

Spur07

02-04-2010, 09:23

Thanks Dimitri - your way of putting things is rather more diplomatic than mine;)

Surely the answer is to always avoid MP3 when possible and rip lossless - crap in, crap out. :)

Stratmangler

02-04-2010, 10:44

Surely the answer is to always avoid MP3 when possible and rip lossless - crap in, crap out. :)

Absolutely correct. I rip to FLAC 99% of the time.
Occasionally I'll rip to AAC to stick music on my mobile phone.

Themis

02-04-2010, 11:44

Yes, AAC is better to MP3 to my ears, even on high bitrates (>256) whetever the "theory" might say (which pretends there are no/little differences). I use Nero AAC 400kbps VBR for my Pod Classic, and, although the compression rate is not great (half a lossless) the sound result is superb.

Spur07

02-04-2010, 11:50

if push came to shove I'd take a Caiman over the 7520, but then most of my library is lossless (AIFF/WAV)

MP3 only for the Sansa Clip - sounds great.

dave2010

02-04-2010, 18:21

Chris
Hit the "post reply" button when you want to make a post and there are a load of smilies available to the side of the box.

Are you using the "quick reply" box ? :scratch:Here I'm using Reply to Thread.
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/3637.gifhttp://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/3637.gif
http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/smilies/17433.gif

I just drag icons from the right hand side into the pane - and this is what happens!

I'm using Firefox under WinXP.

I can also click on an icon from under the pane - but that seems to put a smley by the side of the title.