This made me laugh a little....

[Wakefield Turntables]

http://hifipig.com/timestep-modified-technics-1200-gae/

So, he has a go at modding a completely upto date 1210. I can understand a 35 year old knackered DJ deck that's been trundled up and down a few fields in the 90's rave seasons but the new GAE model!!

[Ammonite Audio]

Why should that be odd, or so funny? Seems to me a perfectly logical development of the new 1200 which, let's face it, has a considerably better motor than the old version. The upgrade costs look reasonable, too.

[Marco]

The really funny thing is the description: "Dave Cawley, designer", but we won't go there.... ;)

That said, I agree with Hugo. It's a perfectly logical thing to do, given that the supplied arm (on an already expensive T/T) is, shall we say, not the best [and I guess that's the "funny" bit], so fitting a much better one is a no-brainer, and of course with DC at the helm, it had to be an SME...

Still makes sense though, as does fitting a quality off-board PSU, which will improve matters further, but given the cost of the GAE, the omission of such as standard, is even 'funnier'!

Therefore, I totally get what Timestep are doing, and it would be interesting to listen to one and compare it with my own Techy, which all-in with arm and, say, my Denon DL-S1 cartridge, costs roughly the same amount as the EVOke. I'd have little doubt though that the EVOke would sound superb.

However, my own T/T was upgraded in stages, over a period of 3 years. I suspect that, at nearly £6k, 'fully loaded', as it were, the market for such will be pretty limited, particularly as it puts in in direct competition with the likes of SME's new Model 15 - and let's face it, at this level of expenditure, which one are the badge snobs most likely to walk out with? :hmm:

Marco.

[realysm42]

The really funny thing is the description: "Dave Cawley, designer", but we won't go there.... ;)

That said, I agree with Hugo. It's a perfectly logical thing to do, given that the supplied arm (on an already expensive T/T) is, shall we say, not the best [and I guess that's the "funny" bit], so fitting a much better one is a no-brainer, and of course with DC at the helm, it had to be an SME...

Still makes sense though, as does fitting a quality off-board PSU, which will improve matters further, but given the cost of the GAE, the omission of such as standard, is even 'funnier'!

Therefore, I totally get what Timestep are doing, and it would be interesting to listen to one and compare it with my own Techy, which all-in with arm and, say, my Denon DL-S1 cartridge, costs roughly the same amount as the EVOke. I'd have little doubt though that the EVOke would sound superb.

However, my own T/T was upgraded in stages, over a period of 3 years. I suspect that, at nearly £6k, 'fully loaded', as it were, the market for such will be pretty limited, particularly as it puts in in direct competition with the likes of SME's new Model 15 - and let's face it, at this level of expenditure, which one are the badge snobs most likely to walk out with? :hmm:

Marco.

Marco (or anyone else with heavily modded Technics decks) - do you feel that the money you spent modding your deck would beat most other models that cost what you spent in total, as standard? Do you feel it's worth the time and expenditure now you've done it?

[Ammonite Audio]

The really funny thing is the description: "Dave Cawley, designer", but we won't there.... ;)

That said, I agree with Hugo. It's a perfectly logical thing to do, given that the supplied arm (on an already expensive T/T) is, shall we say, not the best [and I guess that's the "funny" bit], so fitting a much better one is a no-brainer, and of course with DC at the helm, it had to be an SME...

Still makes sense though, as does fitting a quality off-board PSU, which will improve matters further, but given the cost of the GAE, the omission of such as standard, is even 'funnier'!

Therefore, I totally get what Timestep are doing, and it would be interesting to listen to one and compare it with my own Techy, which all-in with arm and, say, my Denon DL-S1 cartridge, costs roughly the same amount as the EVOke. I'd have little doubt though that the EVOke would sound superb.

However, my own T/T was upgraded in stages, over a period of 3 years. I suspect that, at nearly £6k, 'fully loaded', as it were, the market for such will be pretty limited, particularly as it puts in in direct competition with the likes of SME's new Model 15 - and let's face it, at this level of expenditure, which one are the badge snobs most likely to walk out with? :hmm:

Marco.

The reason why they don't include such a PSU as standard is probably the same reason for linear PSUs disappearing entirely from mainstream electronics products. It is possible to make a good switching PSU, of course, but it's an expensive prospect and good ones tend to be big.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Marco (or anyone else with heavily modded Technics decks) - do you feel that the money you spent modding your deck would beat most other models that cost what you spent in total, as standard? Do you feel it's worth the time and expenditure now you've done it?

I couldn't give a shit about the money or if my deck stands upto others it's about having fun with a hobby I enjoy. My hearing determines how much pleasure I gain from my hobby so far nothing has surpassed my 1210. My 1210 hasn't changed significantly in several years and I can't see me changing it now. So, here's another way of looking at things. I'm extremely happy with my 1210, initially I spent a lot of money modding it, of which I got immense pleasure. Six years later I still have the same deck and have very very little, if anything on mods. So I had short term monetary losses for long term monetary gains and additional joy of listening to music on a deck I really love. At least I've not continually spent money over the last six years replacing deck after deck looking for my audio nirvana whilst additionally accumulating wasted money on products which are replaced due to dissatisfaction.

[realysm42]

I couldn't give a shit about the money or if my deck stands upto others it's about having fun with a hobby I enjoy. My hearing determines how much pleasure I gain from my hobby so far nothing has surpassed my 1210. My 1210 hasn't changed significantly in several years and I can't see me changing it now. So, here's another way of looking at things. I'm extremely happy with my 1210, initially I spent a lot of money modding it, of which I got immense pleasure. Six years later I still have the same deck and have very very little, if anything on mods. So I had short term monetary losses for long term monetary gains and additional joy of listening to music on a deck I really love. At least I've not continually spent money over the last six years replacing deck after deck looking for my audio nirvana whilst additionally accumulating wasted money on products which are replaced due to dissatisfaction.

Why the profanity bro? I'm not asking you if you care 'about the money'. The question is do you think you get more SPPV your way or buying an off the shelf component for the same price?

And of course it's about having fun; I don't know if I've misinterpreted your post it just reads a bit spikey...

[Wakefield Turntables]

Why the profanity bro? I'm not asking you if you care 'about the money'. The question is do you think you get more SPPV your way or buying an off the shelf component for the same price?

And of course it's about having fun; I don't know if I've misinterpreted your post it just reads a bit spikey...

Martin, forgive the profanity, it's not aimed at you personally, it was expressed in a laid back context. Hope the explains things. Yeah I believe I got SPPV, I probably only paid 75% mark-up instead of 100% (another joke) ;). A lot of the things in my 1210 can't be bought "off the shelf" and consequently come for small businesses that specialise in niche markets so it's difficult to properly answer you questionn.

[realysm42]

Fair play :) Personally i enjoy fettling things where possible. Its good to learn about the product and in turn make appreciable upgrades.

[YNWaN]

Seems to me a perfectly logical development of the new 1200 which, let's face it, has a considerably better motor than the old version.

Do you know in what way the motor has been improved over its predecessor?

[Ammonite Audio]

Well, its topology is very different, with flat wound overlapping coils, and its measured performance (according to Paul Miller) is faultless. Add to that Technics' claim to have eliminated 'cogging' which if you recall has been clearly seen in the Turntable Speed Analysis plots over at PFM, and I think we can reasonably conclude that the motor is better. That's even before we start to consider that it does not share the original's floppy bearing design, nor its bendy alloy chassis. I am certainly not interested in buying one, but I do admire the quality of design that seems to have gone into it. For the record, if I was looking to buy a new DD deck, it would be the STST Motus.

[YNWaN]

Thanks :) - I wasn't implying a criticism though; just genuinely interested in what they have altered in the motor. Some element of cogging (in any motor) is inevitable I think but no doubt they have reduced it considerably and perhaps when coupled to the inertia of the heavier platter it has rendered the effect below the measurable limit*.

I agree that the STST Motus would be my own first call if I were looking for a DD.

* it's also possible that the servo circuit has a part to play in this.

[Marco]

Well, its topology is very different, with flat wound overlapping coils, and its measured performance (according to Paul Miller) is faultless. Add to that Technics' claim to have eliminated 'cogging' which if you recall has been clearly seen in the Turntable Speed Analysis plots over at PFM...


...yet which many others and I can hear no effect of whatsoever with our T/Ts, so couldn't give a monkey's toss about the measurements on pfm ;)


...and I think we can reasonably conclude that the motor is better.


Well, "better" in what way? On paper, perhaps, but sonically (the only thing that really matters), the jury is out until someone compares both motors side by side, with no other variables in the equation, which is a near impossibility.


That's even before we start to consider that it does not share the original's floppy bearing design, nor its bendy alloy chassis.


The "floppy bearing design", should one agree with that statement, is easily rectified with an upgrade to one from Mike New, or perhaps one of the other aftermarket versions. The "bendy alloy chassis" I can hear no detrimental effect of, but which could exist and be shown up by a superior design of chassis. However, the stock version, to my ears and others, doesn't appear to be holding things back much.

However, I have to say, Hugo, that whilst of course you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never stop you from expressing that, your posts now, and for some time, read as rather 'anti-Technics', almost as if you've got a bee in your bonnet about the subject, or the T/T in general and how popular it is, thus seek to 'diss' it at every opportunity. When it comes to Technics T/Ts, you always seem to be 'on the attack', as it were.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem whatsoever with you not liking the Technics, for whatever justified sonic or engineering reasons you have, but equally it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth if what you're writing is born from simply a negative/biased agenda.

Anyway, I could be completely wrong in that respect, and if so feel free to tell me, but that's how your posts read to me, whenever the subject of Technics T/Ts comes up.

Marco.

[Marco]

Marco (or anyone else with heavily modded Technics decks) - do you feel that the money you spent modding your deck would beat most other models that cost what you spent in total, as standard? Do you feel it's worth the time and expenditure now you've done it?

Hi Martin,

Firstly, "beat", in that context is an entirely subjective thing, so I can't say yes to that in any universal sense.

However, what I can say is that I've compared my T/T to some rather more expensive ones, with genuine 'high-end badges', and to my ears and also those of the owner's of the T/Ts it's been up against, my modded Techy has always held its own or outperformed them, although it usually comes down to identifying the strengths and weaknesses of the respective T/Ts and how important or otherwise those are to the respective listeners.

I'd certainly have no qualms whatsoever about putting my modded Techy up against any T/T you care to mention, and it not disgracing itself. Let's put it that way! However, no T/T is perfect, including mine, so what is "best" will always be down to the sonic and musical priorities of the listener, unless one buys a turntable solely on measurements - and then you can sit and play 'Top Trumps' until your heart's content! ;)

In terms of your last question, I would say a resounding yes, as the proof of the pudding is that, like Andrew, I've never felt the need to change it for something else, as it never fails to disappoint whenever I spin some vinyl [it 'disappears from the equation', and I simply enjoy the music], therefore my money is spent now on buying records rather than upgrading or changing my T/T, so what better endorsement can I give it than that? :)

Marco.

[Marco]

The reason why they don't include such a PSU as standard is probably the same reason for linear PSUs disappearing entirely from mainstream electronics products. It is possible to make a good switching PSU, of course, but it's an expensive prospect and good ones tend to be big.

For sure, but that's not what I meant. What I mean was that, IMO, it's utterly ridiculous that a T/T costing nearly three grand, doesn't automatically come with some form of high-quality external PSU, as indeed all other T/Ts do, which I know of, at that price level.

Marco.

[Ammonite Audio]

If I have an agenda, it's because I have owned a 1200 (bought almost new), spent quite a bit of money on it, then formulated my own opinions of it as a music/maker. These are my opinions and of course do not necessarily reflect everyone else's. I do respond to posts slagging off the new 1200 because these are entirely uninformed and seemingly based on a need to protect the reputation of the old model, rather than to celebrate a new generation. I have not heard the new 1200 but I do know someone who has examined it in great detail, and stated it to be very accomplished, agreeing entirely with Paul Miller's technical review. I'll take his views above those from someone who has not had a chance to hear the new one, let alone do the same with the new model.

Different people listen to music in different ways, which may or may not highlight aspects of a turntable's performance that are good or not so good. It's easy to focus on overall speed stability, which when poor can manifest as wow on sustained notes etc, but to my ears it's good micro speed stability that translates into good musical expression, and this is where the old 1200 was shown up by the PFM speed stability plots as being nothing special. Try listening to how Kempff or Brendel play Beethoven or Mozart piano works and this becomes clearer. Our brains are very sensitive to this sort of timing irregularity, which pretty much evades traditional W&F measurements. Technics know this, and that is why they chose a different approach for the new 1200's motor.

The bendy SL-1200 chassis is something that has already been highlighted and addressed by Mike New with his Base Plate, so it's not a new observation. To be specific, most of the original 1200's alloy chassis is adequately stiffened and supported by the phenolic block that's fixed to it, but the bearing well and the area surrounding it is something else.

Yes, in a similar vein, the floppy bearing is fully addressed by Mike New's bespoke design, but my understanding is that the new 1200 has a bearing that's integral with its motor and not something that needs upgrading. I have no reason to disbelieve DC when he says that the only two things about the new 1200 that merit improvement are the tonearm and PSU. The rest looks very nicely engineered, and the price is not utterly stupid in the wider new turntable market that has some really ghastly overpriced horrors in it.

I admit that my own experience with the old 1200 was put starkly in context when an old and slightly tired Kenwood KD-770 showed it the door. That's my experience, of course, and does not necessarily reflect others experiences, tastes, preferences etc. Of interest to me is that Technics chose to follow Kenwood's motor design topology with the new 1200, with added user facilities to adjust startup torque and braking which are more of interest to DJs than audiophiles - a sensible straddling of the two markets on Technics' part.

Ultimately, it's all down to taste and preference. I suspect that many existing 1200 users would love to hear the new one alongside their own decks and that they would probably be mightily impressed, but would they be prepared to shell out that much for it? Perhaps not, but there is no doubt in my mind that the new 1200 is something of a tour de force, and will sell by the bucket load, but clearly not to you!

As I said earlier, I'd rather spend roughly 50% of the new 1200's ticket price (or indeed the price of a fully pimped old 1200, for that matter) on a Motus, which left a deep and lasting impression on me when I heard it at Scalford a few years ago. But, I have a TD-124 and a Kenwood KD-990, so I don't need to buy a new deck at all.



...yet which many others and I can hear no effect of whatsoever with our T/Ts, so couldn't give a monkey's toss about the measurements on pfm ;)



Well, "better" in what way? On paper, perhaps, but sonically (the only thing that really matters), the jury is out until someone compares both motors side by side, with no other variables in the equation, which is a near impossibility.



The "floppy bearing design", should one agree with that statement, is easily rectified with an upgrade to one from Mike New, or perhaps one of the other aftermarket versions. The "bendy alloy chassis" I can hear no detrimental effect of, but which could exist and be shown up by a superior design of chassis. However, the stock version, to my ears and others, doesn't appear to be holding things back much.

However, I have to say, Hugo, that whilst of course you're entitled to your opinion, and I would never stop you from expressing that, your posts now, and for some time, read as rather 'anti-Technics', almost as if you've got a bee in your bonnet about the subject, or the T/T in general and how popular it is, thus seek to 'diss' it at every opportunity. When it comes to Technics T/Ts, you always seem to be 'on the attack', as it were.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem whatsoever with you not liking the Technics, for whatever justified sonic or engineering reasons you have, but equally it leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth if what you're writing is born from simply a negative/biased agenda.

Anyway, I could be completely wrong in that respect, and if so feel free to tell me, but that's how your posts read to me, whenever the subject of Technics T/Ts comes up.

Marco.

[Marco]

No worries, Hugo. I don't have a problem with any of that, as it's your opinion, based on experience. It's just that sometimes what you write about the Technics (the old one) comes across as a bit 'sniffy'.

Anyway, yes the new Techy is undoubtedly decent, but for me overpriced, and Mr Cawley's pimpled version, doubtless better still - at some cost. However, if given the choice between it and and SME 15, I suspect that the EVOke is the one I'd walk away with ;)

Marco.

[Mike_New]

Hi Folks,
Some interesting and passionate observations here.
If someone would like to lend me the new machine for a few weeks, I will take it apart and see if I can design/generate a replacement Bearing for it.
I say this in no small jest, as a guy in the US did say to me some time ago that the integral bearing is really not that much of an improvement.
Now I cannot say what prompted this observation.
However I have looked at pictures of the internals, and the bearing/support does not look to me to be that substantial.
I would have thought that with a supposedly up-market product (and cost) which this is purported to be, it would have had a more
solidly designed and larger diameter bearing in order to support the reportedly heavier platter and cater for the improved sonics that this would produce.

I have been asked if I intend to produce an ETP Platter for this model.
This would be an easier task than for the SL1200 and I will indeed offer one when firstly I can get my hands on a TT
and secondly when the there are serious customers about.
However I do really think that the cost of this model is way to high especially when you consider that the production costs have been
considerably reduced by using a relatively simple pancake motor design and switched power supply.
The expensive to produce multi pole magnetised ferite rotor fitted to the platter on the SL1200 is no longer required.
Time will tell!!!!!

[al2002]

Well, cogging has been reduced but not completely eliminated if the report in Hi-Fi World is to be believed. See my post here:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?45879-1200GAE-in-Hi-Fi-World





Well, its topology is very different, with flat wound overlapping coils, and its measured performance (according to Paul Miller) is faultless. Add to that Technics' claim to have eliminated 'cogging' which if you recall has been clearly seen in the Turntable Speed Analysis plots over at PFM, and I think we can reasonably conclude that the motor is better. That's even before we start to consider that it does not share the original's floppy bearing design, nor its bendy alloy chassis. I am certainly not interested in buying one, but I do admire the quality of design that seems to have gone into it. For the record, if I was looking to buy a new DD deck, it would be the STST Motus.

[al2002]

Hello Mike,

Given that the Hi Fi News test report shows that the 1200GAE rumble and W&F are pretty much State-of-the-Art, and bearing in mind that production is limited, is it really worth your while to produce mods for this version? Just curious.





Hi Folks,
Some interesting and passionate observations here.
If someone would like to lend me the new machine for a few weeks, I will take it apart and see if I can design/generate a replacement Bearing for it.
I say this in no small jest, as a guy in the US did say to me some time ago that the integral bearing is really not that much of an improvement.
Now I cannot say what prompted this observation.
However I have looked at pictures of the internals, and the bearing/support does not look to me to be that substantial.
I would have thought that with a supposedly up-market product (and cost) which this is purported to be, it would have had a more
solidly designed and larger diameter bearing in order to support the reportedly heavier platter and cater for the improved sonics that this would produce.

I have been asked if I intend to produce an ETP Platter for this model.
This would be an easier task than for the SL1200 and I will indeed offer one when firstly I can get my hands on a TT
and secondly when the there are serious customers about.
However I do really think that the cost of this model is way to high especially when you consider that the production costs have been
considerably reduced by using a relatively simple pancake motor design and switched power supply.
The expensive to produce multi pole magnetised ferite rotor fitted to the platter on the SL1200 is no longer required.
Time will tell!!!!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

I've followed this thread with some interest since starting it. It amazes me how Technics has markedly improved an already astonishing deck to even greater heights. The deck has only just gone on sale and only several thousands units are going to be made available worldwide. We all know that measurements don't purely define a decks sonic characteristics so how do a few illuminated individuals claim to be able to better such a deck? Only a few people will actually be able to hear the new GAE and so far we have
a few magazine reviews of the machine with no actual forum members posting any comments. The market for modding these decks is going to be TINY compared to the orginal 1200 and 1210 decks, so why bother going after the sales? Sometimes I despair.....

[YNWaN]

It doesn't surprise me at all that Technics have managed to improve on this deck - they already had a more purist iteration in the SP10. In addition, feedback loop technology (which is the principle the 1200/1210 control was based on) has moved on enormously in the thirty years since the deck was introduced. I'm also not surprised that someone might seek to improve the new 1200, within the greater scheme of turntables it doesn't cost very much - certainly amongst the ones aiming for the higher ground. What does surprise me is the Technics marketing department have said this is aimed at the audiophile and not the DJ - and yet the pitch slider is still included (which serves no audiophile purpose).


100% Analogue

[Mike_New]

Hello Mike,

Given that the Hi Fi News test report shows that the 1200GAE rumble and W&F are pretty much State-of-the-Art, and bearing in mind that production is limited, is it really worth your while to produce mods for this version? Just curious.

Hi A
You are correct, and obviously as I stated it will be predicated on the level of interest.
At the present time interest in the much established SL1200 series has now all but ceased.
I have not sold a Bearing or ETP Platter for the last 7 weeks.
I now have both available.
I guess all those who enthusiastically invested in the upgrades over the past 5 years have now finally moved on, as people do.
And sadly there are now few people coming forward to replace them.
Also I believe that the past surge in the take up of Vynal is now diminishing as the younger people embrace the internet.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hi A
You are correct, and obviously as I stated it will be predicated on the level of interest.
At the present time interest in the much established SL1200 series has now all but ceased.
I have not sold a Bearing or ETP Platter for the last 7 weeks.
I now have both available.
I guess all those who enthusiastically invested in the upgrades over the past 5 years have now finally moved on, as people do.
And sadly there are now few people coming forward to replace them.
Also I believe that the past surge in the take up of Vynal is now diminishing as the younger people embrace the internet.

Well ive moved on from my 1210 and I still have all your upgrades (apart from the tonearm board). Vinyl is still growing and it's probably a mix of kids getting into vinyl and people like me in their 40s (and upwards) that now have some spare cash and want to revisit the vinyl experience.

[YNWaN]

The Internet is not a new thing to 'young people' and they are not only now giving up 'Vynal' in exchange for its digital embrace. On the contrary, sales of vinyl continue to increase but then so do the number of turntables on which one can play it. In reality, the number of people prepared to spend double the value of a turntable on after market upgrades is bound to be a niche, within a niche, within a niche.


100% Analogue

[Macca]

. What does surprise me is the Technics marketing department have said this is aimed at the audiophile and not the DJ - and yet the pitch slider is still included (which serves no audiophile purpose).


Technics marketing department either know jack about marketing or they have some weird strategy that no-one can comprehend yet. My money's on the former.

[YNWaN]

Well not many DJ's will be prepared to spend £4K+ on a pair of decks - but it does seem odd that Technics have altered the look of the deck so little - they aren't even doing a black one any more as far as I know.

[Macca]

I suppose if you change the iconic look too much you throw the baby out with the bathwater. They seem to be conflicted between deciding if people will buy the deck for the iconic looks, or for the sound quality. So it ends up as an expensive anachronism.