View Full Version : What is Flat Earth..?
StanleyB
22-11-2009, 13:48
I was under the impression that Christopher Columbus and Galileo conclusively proved that the earth is round:scratch:. Did the making of Pirates of The Caribbean at World's End debunk that view?
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 14:45
We also live on a plannet, not a star!
Primalsea
22-11-2009, 14:55
I asked the same question a while ago. Apparently it was a term applied to fanatics of a certain Hifi manufacturer that just insisted that it was the dogs bollocks despite overwhelming evidence that it was not. A bit like people who believe the world is still flat, despite overwhelming evidence it is not.
StanleyB
22-11-2009, 15:38
Must have been a prat who came up with that one :mental:.
Hifi for tone deaf knobs
:sofa:
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 15:51
now thats just mean :(
StanleyB
22-11-2009, 15:54
now thats just mean :(
Coming from a man who just got rid of his Naim gear;).
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 15:58
.... well yeah .... .... thats not the point ;)
Steve Toy
22-11-2009, 16:36
The flat earth notion is one of seeking to reproduce the emotion and passion of the recorded musical performance. A couple of manufacturers nailed their colours to the mast stating this was their primary objective. Thus prat and the tune dem were born respectively.
However the flat earth is not the exclusive preserve of these two manufacturers as it is a state of mind and an approach to listening to music. Many flat earthers have migrated to other manufacturers and topologies that perhaps do the job better.
Coming from a man who just got rid of his Naim gear.
Stan, I'd bet that almost every Naim user (with an open-mind and badge lusting, fanboy-free mentality), if they'd heard what Hamish has heard recently, would've done the exact same thing!! ;)
Marco (a valve amp lover and ex-'high-end' Naim user of many years).
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 17:03
i find it odd that people make decisions on hifi based on anything else but thier ears.
iinitially bought naim as i was at the time sure it was the best, i hadnt had the exposure to the collective experience that i have gained from this place at the time! an i certainly wasnt expecting steves kit to be as much better than mine as it was!
i still relate that listening experience to my experience of naim.
i was saying to steve(or anthony, i cant remember) the other day - i have heard a range of naim systems on the same day going from £3k then £6k then £15k then £20k then £120k. these systems were all new and as such my older system easily matched the £6k ... i expected steves to perhaps be a £10k equivalent... i would say i was happier with the sound of it than i would have been with the £20k naim system!!
now im sure people have witnessed my profound distaste for naim cd sources (bar the 555) so some of it could be put down to that... but frankly thats not the point, in my eyes i am about to own a system that for me beats something that was previously completely unobtainable ... and that is thanks to this place!! so well done you bunch of old fuggys, i hold quite a few of you responsible for making me a very happy hifi owner
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 17:04
as a side note... i still want a naim nait 1 as a second system... you gotta respect your routes eh?! :)
as a side note... i still want a naim nait 1 as a second system... you gotta respect your routes eh?! :)
there no helping some peolpr:lol:
as a side note... i still want a naim nait 1 as a second system... you gotta respect your routes eh?! :)
Surely you mean a Nait 2, better all round IMO;). Just been down a similar road myself actually, making the move from Naim that is. In my case it was a new set of speakers that started things off, I'll post a bit of blog about it when I've got my thoughts together if anyone's interested.
Cheers
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 20:06
im back and forth between 1 and 2 at the mo... i think my money is prob best spent on new interconnects and bits for the turntable though really
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 20:08
...that said i was just bidding on a nait 1 that was at £160 until the last 20 seconds where it shot up to £255... i thought if i got it for £160-£200 it would have been a good buy... but £255.. too much!
Hamish, what's this magic system you speak of? I've missed where that was discussed. Can you link me?
Ta
The Vinyl Adventure
22-11-2009, 23:13
Mostly here
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4452
I have bought steve toy's power amp and Anthony td is building me a grounded grid pre to go with it
Rare Bird
22-11-2009, 23:30
Get yourself a copy of the old 'Flat responce magazine', all will be revealed..Some flat earthers on this postin board
:sofa:
Yes, Mr Toy has a good take on this, the 'Flat Earth' concept of hi fi is simply a mind set that gives the musical/emotional involvement capabilities of equipment greater emphasis than its' measured performance. The fact that this statement can be made without so much as raising an eyebrow demonstrates how far things have come over the last few decades.
Back in the '60s & '70s the over riding goal of hi fi designers was to produce gear with, in the case of amplifiers, zero distortion figures, for transducers a ruler flat frequency response and for t/ts zero w&f and rumble, if it measured right it was right, end of story. Take a look at the hi fi press from those days, pages of glossy ads for, mostly, Japanese gear consisting of acres of specs claiming 0.000001% THD, 0.000000000001% IMD and don't forget power, yes the more of that the better, you can never have too many wpc, preferably quoted as 'music power' whatever that is.
The reviews in these mags were generally little more than regurgitated press releases again with endless lists of specs but not a mention of how anything actually sounded and if the 'm' word was ever alluded to it goes without saying that meant classical music, after all what possible merit could there be in popular music as it so obviously lacks colour, is devoid of any dynamics and is altogether too low brow to merit serious consideration let alone deserve serious reproduction. (I can remember the uproar when someone dared suggest that DSOTM sounded 'rather good, actually' in HFN back in the mid '70s, the letters column was inundated for months, subscriptions canceled, insults hurled, death threats made etc.,).
This was the hi fi world that the two companies who were to become in most people's mind the embodiment of the Flat Earth started out. They had the nerve to suggest that it didn't matter how well hi fi measured, it was how it sounded that mattered. To that end they both insisted on only selling their stuff after a proper demonstration, back in the early '70s most hi fi was sold via mail order, if you could get a dem at all they were pretty meaningless, who remembers the 'wall of speakers' comparator type of thing? The press began to divide. There were those, usually the established mags/journos, who clung to their principles that you could measure your way out of anything who became the objectivists and the new upstart, hippy dippy, sod yer test bench, trust what your ears tell you types who morphed into the subjectivist camp.
Come the '80s, the digital era dawns. Two of the largest consumer electronics companies in the world combine their R&D to bring us the answer to all our dreams, the Compact Disc is born, we can now have Perfect Sound Forever, hooray. Perfect sound, can this possibly be true? Of course, just look at the figures, dynamic range, huge, signal-to-noise ratio, enormous, distortion, zilch, wow & flutter, non-existent, what more could you possibly want? The objectivists danced round their oscilloscopes in unbridled glee, see, see, we told you so, CD is perfect, this is the future, 16-bit digital red book audio it's perfect sound, it's.... forever! Yet again, because it measures right, it is right, however not everyone is convinced. Those who spent time listening to the new format soon became disillusioned, CD it seemed, promised all but actually delivered little, yes there was zero background noise unfortunately when the music started it just didn't sound very good.
The subjectivists ever keen to point out CD failings dug in deeper, the objctivists became ever more firmly entrenched behind their test benches. The insults flowed and were traded with ever more venom, if you couldn't hear how bad CD and therefore all things digital were you were obviously stone deaf, conversely if you couldn't see the advantages of digital then you were blind to progress, a luddite who probably still believed that the earth was indeed flat, the term Flat Earth entered hi fi folklore.
Hopefully, the hi fi industry and us as consumers have matured and moved on. Back in the day hi fi was the only form of consumer electronics available to the masses. To-day that market has diversified, we now have a/v, games consoles, ipods, computers, gadgets galore to distract us and relieve us of whatever income we have at our disposal. Those consumers who enjoy playing 'specmanship' can buy a computer and upgrade to their hearts content or get ever bigger plasma TVs or go from 5.1 up to 7.1 surround etc., etc.
The hi fi market is now very small beer for the likes of Sony, Philips et al and hopefully those of us who are into proper hi fi are so because of a love of music rather than technology per se, in that sense the flat earthers were right all along, it's the music that matters not the technology. So if you dig your music played off 'old fashioned' vinyl, amplified by century old technological devices and reproduced by anachronistic loudspeakers that your grandfather would know the name of then welcome to the Flat Earth, enjoy your stay and put another record on.:smoking:
Hi Ralph,
What a superb post! :clap:
I don't think I've read anything else all year that I agree more with!!
Perfect sound, can this possibly be true? Of course, just look at the figures, dynamic range, huge, signal-to-noise ratio, enormous, distortion, zilch, wow & flutter, non-existent, what more could you possibly want? The objectivists danced round their oscilloscopes in unbridled glee, see, see, we told you so, CD is perfect, this is the future, 16-bit digital red book audio it's perfect sound, it's.... forever! Yet again, because it measures right, it is right...
Hahahaha... That is *so* funny, and also so true (in a blinkered sense)! I should send it to Ashley James and his various puppets for their 'delectation'... :eyebrows:
Sadly, there are too many of these narrow-minded and deluded characters populating forums, spewing their jaundiced bile, (e.g. there's a roaster on pfm called 'boogy' I'd love to, erm, 'tackle'!), often to the detriment of people making valid and real discoveries with hi-fi, although thankfully so far AoS hasn't been infected by their dogmatic poison. Sometimes, though, I wish people of that mindset would join so that I could have fun by ruthlessly exposing the fallacy of their arguments... ;)
Marco.
Ralph, you forgot to mention the ultimate bench : the AB/X tests. ;)
anthonyTD
23-11-2009, 12:59
excelent read ralph!:)
A...
The age old chestnut old foot tapping v's presentational aspects.
It has long gone for a lot of 'real world' folks, simply as they have both sides of the coin now.
About as relevant as dad's radiogram pipe and slippers special V's safe indoor concert PA systems that go to number 11.
Steve Toy
23-11-2009, 14:51
Indeed Tony. We now have added soundsaging and tonal colour.
Marco, it's not Ash & co who are dogmatically poisoned. At least their rather excellent products were designed with depth of knowledge at the outset, in the same way I'm sure Ant TD does with valve amps and Stan does with his DACs.
IMO, the people who are dogmatic and poisoned are the ones who worship stuff that wasn't very all-round competent twenty five years ago, who refuse to accept that there are other ways of doing things and who seem to think the audio clock stopped in 1985..
What I'm trying to say Marco is this - good sounding gear *usually* measures right and it's only fine tweaking that needs to be done - see the Caiman mods to an established design. I bet the crossover alterations to your Tannoys were to improve the measured as well as subjective qualities and the fancy boutique components refined this further..
I always thought that Flat Earth meant 'Naim/Linn good: everything else bad'. Certainly the Naimees and Linnites were always dismissive of, for example, valve amps and Quad speakers ('pipe and slippers' was their usual derogative term).
Primalsea
23-11-2009, 19:57
Personally I have always found Niam stuff to be a bit Hammer and Chisel with slower music that requires subtly. However I have to admit it does seem to be some of the best made equipment I ever seen.
I'm thinking of marketing a new equipment isolation support - it's called the turtle. You can stack them so you'll have Turtles all the way down if you want.
StanleyB
23-11-2009, 20:06
Have they got flat earth or flat feet:sofa:?
Marco, it's not Ash & co who are dogmatically poisoned.
*COUGH*! How can you say that given the blinkered tosh he writes on forums, full of blatant lies and half-truths designed to hoodwink the gullible in order to promote sales of his ADM9s? :doh:
We'll just have to agree to disagree here, Dave. As far as I'm concerned, the man is an undesirable menace. I cannot stand people with agendas, especially ones who are so blatantly disingenuous!!
At least their rather excellent products were designed with depth of knowledge at the outset, in the same way I'm sure Ant TD does with valve amps and Stan does with his DACs.
No argument there.
IMO, the people who are dogmatic and poisoned are the ones who worship stuff that wasn't very all-round competent twenty five years ago, who refuse to accept that there are other ways of doing things and who seem to think the audio clock stopped in 1985..
No argument there either. However, Mr James is most certainly dogmatic; he defines the very essence of the word. His contributions on forums are clear evidence of this, as are the emails I've received from him, and the contents, to date, of our telephone conversations.
Can you see how I'm struggling to understand and appreciate your apparent penchant for his 'erudite' audio principles? ;)
What I'm trying to say Marco is this - good sounding gear *usually* measures right and it's only fine tweaking that needs to be done - see the Caiman mods to an established design. I bet the crossover alterations to your Tannoys were to improve the measured as well as subjective qualities and the fancy boutique components refined this further..
Of course good gear usually measures correctly, and things need to be thoroughly tested. It's just that measurements and 'scientific facts' are not the be-all-and-end-all in audio as claimed by staunch (dogmatic) objectivists such as Ashley James and his ilk!
Marco.
Who is Ashley James, btw ?
(I'm trying to look interested^^)
Haha... Obviously his marketing bile hasn't infected France yet!!
Google him (or AVI ADM9s)... You'll get about a billion entries :lol:
Marco.
Not this, certainly ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ashley :o
Ah THIS ! : http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930
well... he is probably right, it seems... :o
LOL... Try digging a little deeper. Search his posts on here, for starters, before he was banned ;)
Marco.
Oh ok... I see what happened.
My opinion is that he has good basis, clear and mostly correct, but his vision looks over-simplified : too few variants. As a result, it get bugged when coming to details and specific situations.
But, then, who am I to have an opinion on the big guys of the UK hifi world ? ;)
Remember he's trying to sell you something just like the rest of the Hi-Fi industry he slates in that article... ;)
The Vinyl Adventure
23-11-2009, 21:29
I won't repeat what I have heard about the chap in question!
As Marvin Gaye sang: 'Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear'
The Vinyl Adventure
23-11-2009, 21:57
Funnily enough I have just been in the pub talking about being open minded about we we read and hear!
I used to be open-minded, but then my brain fell out.
Hi Hamish,
I won't repeat what I have heard about the chap in question!
Ashley is not a bad or nasty person. In fact, I'm told that in real life he's quite charming, so I'm sure that if you met him he'd be niceness personified and you’d wonder what all the fuss was about.
The problem I have is that he perpetrates lies. I dislike the dishonesty of what he writes on forums, which is blatantly designed to mislead people in order to further his business interests, and also the way he rubbishes approaches with hi-fi (such as using valves and vinyl) which are every bit as valid as his computer-based ones, but counterproductive to the success of the products he sells.
There is no need for that. It’s wrong and also irresponsible. One can represent a company and be naturally biased, and yet still successfully promote a product (or products) without either rubbishing the competition or the valid alternative system-building methodologies of people who think differently to you.
In short; he's insincere and disingenuous, which are traits I abhor in people no matter what else they may or may not have got going for them.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-11-2009, 01:10
... That's almost word for word what I have been told marco, the only difference being that it was product specific, and he aparently got quite abrasive when he was told he was wrong about the product in question... There was more too, but I won't go into it, I don't really like taking about people I don't know like this.. It was quite a suprising thing to hear though!
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 12:39
I found Ashley to be superficially pleasant and rather slimy.
You mean he was, like, really a reptile? :eek:
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 13:13
Did you know Christopher Columbus had a Linn/Naim system till he discovered the earth was indeed round..
:)
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 13:21
I think these days Flat Earth has little to do with Linn/Naim. Indeed most of the traditional Flat Earthers (Tony L, Joe Petrik, Marco, myself, Hamish very recently and others) have migrated to valves. Our listening preferences are unchanged but we've discovered that true musical satisfaction resides in a glowing bottle. The dichotomy with round earth would seem to be measured distortion/speakers first (they distort the most, apparently) versus subjective evaluation/source and amps first.
Key weapons in the Flat Earth armoury include good solid engineering re. transports/turntables, stands that isolate and ground unwanted vibrations, cables that eliminate noise, a mains supply with lowered impedance and most importantly the power supply - the bigger and beefier the better.
Key weapons in the round earth armoury are 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001% THD and a measured flat response in-room.
Musical involvement is rooted in improving dynamics and timing. Ridding distortion, whilst useful, won't set your world alight on its own. Room correction won't fix the fact that bass (for example) which is poorly resolved at source and/or the amp can't actually exert enough grip over the speakers.
The dichotomy of presentation versus communication seems redundant now too as flat earthers have discovered that imaging, soundstaging and low noise floor are not only possible without affecting the involvement factor, they actually enhance it. Again the answer lies in those glowing bottles - they, when properly implemented give you cavernous soundstaging and imaging as well as dynamic prowess the Naim boys can only dream about this side of a CDS 555/Nac 552/Nap 500.
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 13:44
Steve would it not be true that an amplifier with a perfect technical specification would sound not as good as one with a lesser? I've always found latter to sound better., which means a tad of distortion works!
Tone controls are vary favourable in my book also, regardless how good your speakers are?
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 14:09
If the designer has paid all his attention to lowering distortion above all else it is likely the amp will sound boring and flat. Tone controls are not favourable for they lenthen the signal path and rob the music of life.
Indeed. Read post #177 here from jimb0, after he received his new Croft preamp - it is rather telling:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4162&page=18
The only negative is that it has revealed various issues with my system/room that the Quad 44 and its tone controls were hiding...
Marco.
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 14:24
If the designer has paid all his attention to lowering distortion above all else it is likely the amp will sound boring and flat. Tone controls are not favourable for they lenthen the signal path and rob the music of life.
No steve that is a somewhat Flat Earth responce no? If a properly designed tone circuit & high quality pots are used it's perfectly ok.The vast majority don't stand up thats why they are unfavourable.I don't have tone circuit but i miss it.
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 14:32
It is a somewhat flat earth response yes. I have no problem with that.
I'm sure your in-room tonal issues can be resolved with careful setup and attending to things you care little for or don't believe in ;) rather than applying sticky plaster over the problem.
No steve that is a somewhat Flat Earth responce no? If a properly designed tone circuit & high quality pots are used it's perfectly ok.The vast majority don't stand up thats why they are unfavourable.I don't have tone circuit but i miss it.
Andre,
Did you read jimb0's post? What's you view then of the tone controls on a Quad 44? He can obviously hear their (negative) effect rather clearly.
I agree with your sentiments about pot quality, etc, but the fact is that anything in-line with the signal path adds a sonic signature, which good systems will reveal.
My view is minimise that sonic signature wherever possible and keep signal paths as short and as simple as possible. If your system is sorted and your room is good, you don't need tone controls. If you need them, or miss them, then there's a deficiency with either of the above.
Once I graduated from the de-facto tone control-equipped integrated amps of the 70s and 80s to ones without, I've never missed them on any system I've used :)
Marco.
Linn cease CDP production, Naim introduce hybrid CD555i CDP...the flatearthforums are a buzz with flames, fanbois wailing and the usual cobblers
here's the prototype Naim from a website, apparently its genuine, with 33 power supplies, specially made burndy connector wot has been cryo frozen at -256 at CERN......manufacture is to be in Salisbury near China it is rumoured.....I await the hificritic's balanced review.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/bigmoog/naim_cd888.jpg
flat earth? :lolsign::ner:
me joking, (incase of anger).......
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 15:17
Quad don't make very good Pre amps anyway so no suprise, the power amps they made were always performace restricted because of the partnership..I'm not a big fan of American audio but you'll find most the big boys have good tone controls ie: ARC, McIntosch, Sumo etc..For the guy that have dedicated listerning rooms, as Steve mentions things can be sorted out at expence.. but myself, like a lot have their music systems in the living room, a touch of bass lift can work wonders in such an enviroment.
In all reality Flat earth era wasnt totally invented for flat responce listerning it was done for cheapness of manufacture hence tone controls etc missing, but they warranted the same price tag.I wonder what guise the industry would have taken if not for audio rags & people taken in by it all!
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 15:23
Linn cease CDP production, Naim introduce hybrid CD555i CDP...the flatearthforums are a buzz with flames, fanbois wailing and the usual cobblers
It's great isnt it when the companies that brain-washed folks for so many years suddenly turn the tables..It is impossible to stand by everything a company set out to do or they will enevitably destroy themselves.Things have to be taken into acount for the longevity of a company, if that means going opposite direction so be it.The day i'm waiting for is Linn to anounce the discontinuation of the LP12
It's great isnt it when the companies that brain-washed folks for so many years suddenly turn the tables..It is impossible to stand by everything a company set out to do or they will enevitably destroy themselves.Things have to be taken into acount for the longevity of a company, if that means going opposite direction so be it.The day i'm waiting for is Linn to anounce the discontinuation of the LP12
Actually, I think it cant be long before Linn release a totally new turntable.....to cash in on the analog renaissance,,,,,,practically every other turntable these days easily outperforms the LP12 imo (and thats with my listening experience as well). Linn just cannot justify 15,000 quid for a fully loaded LP12....when a better TT can be had for less than a 1,000 , possibly
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 15:32
But whose gonna design it? Can't be the one who designed the first one..What will happen when the LP12 does go? Apocalypse thats what
:lolsign:
But whose gonna design it? Can't be the one who designed the first one..What will happen when the LP12 does go? Apocalypse thats what
:lolsign:
easy, they probably will announce a Linn (cle*raudio OEM) TT and sell it for £3333
or do a Direct Drive and call it the Linn Axle
Rare Bird
24-11-2009, 17:15
easy, they probably will announce a Linn (cle*raudio OEM) TT and sell it for £3333
O dear god no i don't which would sound worse. :lolsign:
or do a Direct Drive and call it the Linn Axle
Aye..
Going to the old 'Axis' deck, the amazing thing was that sounded easier to listern to than the big boy
You're wasted here, Ralph. No, I really mean ARE you wasted, here Ralph?!
Fantastic work, and following yesterday's classic post too. ;)
Totally, wasted that is:smoking:
Fecking hilarious, Ralph!! :lol:
I'll be saving that one for 'posterity' ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
24-11-2009, 19:03
Fecking hilarious, Ralph!! :lol:
I'll be saving that one for 'posterity' ;)
Marco.
Funny it may be,in places (though I personally find a few elements of it personally offensive.) I thought it was against most forums ethos, that personal attacks on people( i.e the banned ) who can't defend themselves was not really on or nice. Imho this piece plumbs the depths of what I find acceptable in regards to comments made about any one. Its a work of fiction, no doubt satire but it really isn't on imho.
Regards D S D L
Let's ask what people think and take a vote on it... We'll go with the majority decision :)
Guys?
Marco.
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 19:12
I can see some finding it offensive. Its author takes full responsibility for what is written and we take none whatsoever as per the VBulletin disclaimer.
If there are sufficient objections it will be removed but I hope this doesn't happen.
Spectral Morn
24-11-2009, 19:13
Let's ask what people think and take a vote on it... We'll go with the majority decision :)
Guys?
Marco.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Yes Ashley is guilty of very poor marketing etc and deserved to be banned for it. However does it then follow that AOS should allow him to be ridiculed in such away or take part in it. I am disappointed, and I think its wrong.
Regards D S D L
Neil, your points are noted, mate. Let's see what others think :cool:
Guys, do you think Ralph's post should stand or be removed?
Marco.
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 19:24
I do think Ashley is thick-skinned enough not to get upset by it. It is only a joke after all.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-11-2009, 19:26
i imagine there might well be a barge pole that a lot of people dont even want to touch to not touch this one with!.... who says im bad at grammer....??
If it's treated as a humorous declaration, why not.
If, on the contrary we may think that it fits the person, then we're becoming like him : we reduce a complex question (his personnality) to a simple fact (a no-brainer).
To me, when complex situations are analysed and we come to a simple, monolithic conclusion, then you can be almost sure that the conclusion is false.
Over-simplification is a false friend and intelligence's dead-end.
I do think Ashley is thick-skinned enough not to get upset by it. It is only a joke after all.
That's kind of how I feel... If I thought that Ralph had meant any malice, it'd be gone by now ;)
If Ashley reads it and is offended then he knows where I am, and I will remove it...
Marco.
Posted in jest... let it stand. :)
I saw it as a total work of fiction, and if someone had written something like that about me, I would have found it amusing - but then I am very far removed from the reality of the situation, as the first I knew of this chap was here on AoS. And, of course, I would be able to reply to the forum, or remonstrate with Ralph if I wasn't happy, which can't happen in this situation.
In the interest of fairness maybe we should contact Ash and seek his permission? ;)
Or I could set up a 'poll'?
Primalsea
24-11-2009, 20:33
I must admit I thought it was a bit off but I wont lose sleep over it staying. However can I point out there does seem to be a group of other forum members who like to see whats on here and then complain about it on their forum. Are we not just given them more ammunition for what will no doubt end up be something that could put potential newcomers off.
The Grand Wazoo
24-11-2009, 20:46
Not that I'd want to piss on anyones cornflakes, but I'm with Neil here.
Primalsea
24-11-2009, 20:53
Not that I'd want to piss on anyones cornflakes, but I'm with Neil here.
Awww, I bet you go to all the best parties with water sports, car keys, wet celery etc etc:)
anthonyTD
24-11-2009, 21:00
hi all,
although i realy enjoy reading ralphs posts and find his writings both intersting and witty at times i also think that this paticular post may well be too close to the bone to stay,:( after all it is about a real person,with real feelings,whether we agree or not with ashley's way of doing things, we must respect him as a person!
just my ramblings of course.
A...
Neil, your points are noted, mate. Let's see what others think :cool:
Guys, do you think Ralph's post should stand or be removed?
Marco.
Since Ashley can't respond here, I think it should go.
alfie2902
24-11-2009, 21:08
I own a pair of ADM9's & very good they are too! (Hmmm... I'll get my coat!)
I've said before, I don't agree though with Ashley's way of conducting himself on forums, but with no right to reply this seems very unfair IMO.
Forum rules & etiquette normaly mean posts of this kind aren't allowed (Banned members... etc) & I'm SURE some members here would take exception to a post like this being aimed at them on another forum where they have no right to reply!... Dunno maybe I'm wrong.
Just seems bad form to me!
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 21:13
I've soft deleted it which means it still exists but is no longer in the public domain. I did think it was funny but it does go against our ethos and the views of our members need to be taken into consideration.
The Grand Wazoo
24-11-2009, 21:15
Just a point of note to consider.
Can we imagine for a moment that Ashley doesn't see it, & therefore doesn't ask for it to be removed. How would Ralph feel if Ashley's business were affected by it? Not that we have any way of knowing one way or the other. But just bear in mind that what's written may have an effect on someone's livelihood.
Ralph may not care, or he may want Ashley's business to suffer in some way (though I'm certain that's not the case at all), but I don't think AoS should open itself to accusations that this may be the case & that it's condoned.
Let's face it, those who are likely to get a laugh from it have probably seen it. Does anyone else really need to see it?
The Vinyl Adventure
24-11-2009, 21:15
I suspect that you have made the right decision steve
The Grand Wazoo
24-11-2009, 21:16
Oops - looks like I need to learn to type faster!
Guys,
We're willing to do whatever is considered right by the majority...
What we didn't want to do though was get all po-faced about something rather witty which obviously took Ralph some time to write, and just simply rub it out without a bye or leave.
The reason I asked what we should do was to get feedback from members. We're always interested to know how other people view things. Having now got that feedback, it's obvious that the majority of people feel that it should be removed, so removed it has been :)
Sorry, Ralph!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
24-11-2009, 21:28
As the post now no longer exists, then perhaps all of the posts following it should now go to, as a decision has been made.
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
24-11-2009, 21:29
Yes, good idea. I was just thinking about editing what I wrote, but thought that might not be the right way to go
Steve Toy
24-11-2009, 21:39
I'd like the rest to remain as it is testimony to how we operate as a community :)
I'd like the rest to remain as it is testimony to how we operate as a community :)
Well said....
Hi Andre,
Quad don't make very good Pre amps anyway so no suprise, the power amps they made were always performace restricted because of the partnership..
I thought you liked (and rated) Quad? :scratch:
I'm not a big fan of American audio but you'll find most the big boys have good tone controls ie: ARC, McIntosch, Sumo etc..
I think that's a fashion (and tradition) thing more than anything else. No doubt though that properly designed tone controls don't add much sonic signature and can be 'handy' in certain situations.
For the guy that have dedicated listerning rooms, as Steve mentions things can be sorted out at expence.. but myself, like a lot have their music systems in the living room, a touch of bass lift can work wonders in such an enviroment.
First of all, Steve doesn't have a dedicated listening room; his system is in his living room ;)
Secondly, it depends on the acoustics of the room and the sonic signature of the system as a whole. In some rooms "a touch of bass lift" would do anything but work wonders!
My view is that tone controls are simply a 'sticking plaster'... I'd rather fix the problem at source than cover it up.
In all reality Flat earth era wasnt totally invented for flat responce listerning it was done for cheapness of manufacture hence tone controls etc missing, but they warranted the same price tag.I wonder what guise the industry would have taken if not for audio rags & people taken in by it all!
Who knows? I however agree with your sentiments.
My view with amplifier design is simple: use the best quality components available which will work in the intended circuit, over-specify PSUs to lower noise, and keep the signal paths as short and as simple as possible, hard-wiring everything throughout.
The amps I use epitomise that design philosophy, and they need no tone controls :cool:
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-11-2009, 01:18
I thought you liked (and rated) Quad? :scratch:
I do but never rated the Pre they were just fun to listern to.It's the 50 & 303 i like.
First of all, Steve doesn't have a dedicated listening room; his system is in his living room ;)
Yes he does but he has it strewned all over the floor in a fashion that most living room situations wont allow nor would trust!
My view with amplifier design is simple: use the best quality components available which will work in the intended circuit, over-specify PSUs to lower noise, and keep the signal paths as short and as simple as possible, hard-wiring everything throughout.
You'll always catch me going back to old stuff i used to own & love.I don't care for expensive hi-fi anymore, over the last two years i've seriously declined intrest in the whole hobby to next to nothing! I just stick with a basic system now of CDP, old amp & a pair of Floorstanders i originally bought for the TV..Intrest has just gone straight out the window. My intentions now are making what i got look good with nice hardware shelving etc, nice perfect tidy cables & thats it, done.The FLAC front end convenience is what it's come to for me.I finished buying expensive hi-fi years ago, it for one was a large contribution to the demise of my last marrage.
I'm what you would describe as a lost cause.
Yes he does but he has it strewned all over the floor in a fashion that most living room situations wont allow nor would trust!
I'm not sure what point you're making and what that's got to do with tone controls working (or not) :scratch:
You'll always catch me going back to old stuff i used to own & love.I don't care for expensive hi-fi anymore, over the last two years i've seriously declined intrest in the whole hobby to next to nothing! I just stick with a basic system now of CDP, old amp & a pair of Floorstanders i originally bought for the TV..Intrest has just gone straight out the window. My intentions now are making what i got look good with nice hardware shelving etc, nice perfect tidy cables & thats it, done.The FLAC front end convenience is what it's come to for me.I finished buying expensive hi-fi years ago, it for one was a large contribution to the demise of my last marrage.
I understand and appreciate that :)
I'm what you would describe as a lost cause.
LOL... But yer happy now, and that's what counts!
Marco.
Rare Bird
25-11-2009, 01:39
LOL... But yer happy now, and that's what counts!
No but it doesnt bother me.I'll use the stereo maybe twice a year now, i tell you no lie..
:confused:
The Vinyl Adventure
25-11-2009, 01:48
How very odd
Rare Bird
25-11-2009, 02:08
How very odd
:scratch:
Heard the one about the bloke who listens to his hi fi twice a year but comes on a hi fi forum and posts 1000+ times in 2 months?
No, of course you haven't, coz I haven't written it yet, but I might, I just might....(be afraid Andre, be very afraid.....);)
The Vinyl Adventure
25-11-2009, 09:32
Heard the one about the bloke who listens to his hi fi twice a year but comes on a hi fi forum and posts 1000+ times in 2 months?
No, of course you haven't, coz I haven't written it yet, but I might, I just might....(be afraid Andre, be very afraid.....);)
:lolsign:
Rare Bird
25-11-2009, 16:33
Heard the one about the bloke who listens to his hi fi twice a year but comes on a hi fi forum and posts 1000+ times in 2 months?
No, of course you haven't, coz I haven't written it yet, but I might, I just might....(be afraid Andre, be very afraid.....);)
:scratch: I don't listern to the hifi my listerning is done through headphone amp, always have prefered earphones..Whats posting shit on a board gotta do with it???
Rare Bird
25-11-2009, 16:53
:punch:
Apropos Quad preamps and tone controls.
I don't think any manufacturer of preamps fitted with tone controls intended their use to compensate for any tonal inbalance of the complete system. Rather they were intended to compensate for occasional inbalance of the recording.
I use both Quad 33 and 44 preamps (in two separate systems). The Quad 33 has the tone controls set to cancel (where they are by-passed and not in the circuit) and are never used. I do find that the use of the 'Tilt' control on the 44 preamp set to '-1/+1' is useful for the occasional 'thick sounding' recording (such as Shirley Collin's 'No Roses'), however for 99% of the time it too is set to 'cancel'.
Naim might like it to be known that they do not fit tone controls to their preamps because they achieve no benefit and are detrimental to the sound, but the reason why their first preamp, the NAC12 came without tone controls is because Naim expected and intended that it would be used with a graphic equaliser!
Regards
Naim preamps ALL have hidden tone controls - it's called bandwidth limiting and in the days before CD, which had larger treble dynamic range coupled with ultrasonic "muck" as modern SA-CD players do, needed a Naim re-think of these filters, the filter circuits having rather massive phase distortion at the frequency extremes. Not too much of a problem with LP sources of the early eighties, but today, with better sources of ALL persuasions, those old preamps don't half sound constricted and coloured in standard form, hence the "bodging" that goes on with them via the likes of Teddy, Les and the Acoustica site... It's even recommended to remove these filter boards if possible if these preamps are used with a non Naim power amp...
I lost the will to live when trying to trawl through these pages. if it measures right, it more often than not IS right and if tweaking is required, at least the basic design is stable and sincere. All the stuff we love on here is almost certainly technically well up to standard with good measurements and a pretty transparent performance I reckon. I mean, TD's amps should be far better measuring than my much loved but severely coloured Quad II's for example and I remember Glenn's old Micro preamps being pretty good on test as well, apart from a little more noise than competing SS preamps..
Leave the flat earth to those fishies stuck in the 1980's using 'Briks and Sara's. They're quite welcome to them IMO...
The Vinyl Adventure
25-11-2009, 18:24
The shop I work in only sells a few basic bits of hifi nad Sony yam project ... All entry level stuff! Once in a while someone come in who is obviously a bit more in the know.... .... ....
Today a chap came in and said "I'm looking for a cheapish decent amp with no tone controls, just simple line select and volume" I said "yeah good hifi should just reproduce what's put into well without having the need fo tone adjustment" he then followed with "I completely agree, and anyway that's why we have graphic eq's we can make the music sound right with them!" ... .... ... I just nodded and smiled! He then decided against buying a nad amp because of the tone controls... Despite the fact they have tone control by pass.
I'm not sure I quite followed his logic, but who am I to agrue, it's his money after all! I sent him to audio t :lolsign:
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 16:49
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=397
All along I was saying that the flat earth is not specifically a Linn/Naim thing and should therefore not be associated (negatively or positively) with these brands.
So, what is Flat Earth? Contrary to what some would have you believe, Flat Earth is not restricted to either Naim or Linn. This isn't a concept defined by brand. Rather, it is a reflection of how people listen to music from their systems - more a value judgement of what's important in music reproduction. That is, dispense with the aspects of reproduction that you can not be sure of (eg. soundstage, imaging & reproduction of the recording environment) and instead concentrate on the construction of the music. Is the bass in time with the percussion? Does the piece hang together as a whole? This, of course, is not to decry the 'rounder' aspects of reproduction. Aspects such as soundstage etc. can enhance the experience. The Flat Earth approach simply gives primacy to the tune.
So if you continue to associate the flat earth with Linn/Naim you are basically, er, wrong. :eek:
But these days you can have most of it all in one system, rather than some of either in two different setups.
The FE belongs in the eighties, with the hideously compromised gear from both sides from this period.
By the way, Quad suggested using the 33 with +1 on the treble control, a setting I liked in the vinyl days with this preamp...
Rare Bird
23-02-2010, 17:11
Is anything without a tone control regarded as flat erf den?
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 17:12
Dave, it's not about the gear but about your listening priorities. Flat earth does not preclude good imaging and soundstaging. It just doesn't prioritise it. Tone controls lengthen the signal path. If the preamp was designed properly in the first place you wouldn't need to set the treble at +1. :p
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 17:13
Is anything without a tone control regarded as flat erf den?
That's like saying anything with four legs and a tail that doesn't go miaow is a dog.
If the preamp was designed properly in the first place you wouldn't need to set the treble at +1. :p
If some recordings were properly recorded in the first place I wouldn't need to use a semi-parametric equaliser. :p
I collect music from a variety of different sources, on a variety of different formats. Some of it needs to be degunked of strawberry jam and equalised. :p
If some of you want to sit through a painfully bright or dull recording, then crack on. I take the sensible approach . . . :p
Oh, and look out the window sometime, you might realise that the world isn't flat.:p
That's like saying anything with four legs and a tail that doesn't go miaow is a dog.
I read it as a question,not a statement of fact.
Is the bass in time with the percussion? Does the piece hang together as a whole?
Ye Gods, I wanna listen to music, not analyse it! :rolleyes:
I'm listening to something in 128Kbps at the moment. Is it audiophile quality? No. Does it sound good? Who cares. Am I enjoying listening to it? Yes, because it's good music. Isn't that what's really important? listening to good music?
Stratmangler
23-02-2010, 17:35
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=397
All along I was saying that the flat earth is not specifically a Linn/Naim thing and should therefore not be associated (negatively or positively) with these brands.
So if you continue to associate the flat earth with Linn/Naim you are basically, er, wrong. :eek:
Good !
Does that mean the end of this rather tedious thread ?
I do hope so.
Chris:)
C'mon guys, please don't start this "theoretical" discussion again... It's all about semantics and absolute expressions which can't tell the whole story, anyway. ;)
In fact, we all agree on our approach to music and hifi, I tend to pay attention to what we agree instead of bugger flies with you.
What do you think ? :smoking:
So does this mean that if something is stated on PFM it must be true?
Dave, it's not about the gear but about your listening priorities. Flat earth does not preclude good imaging and soundstaging. It just doesn't prioritise it. Tone controls lengthen the signal path. If the preamp was designed properly in the first place you wouldn't need to set the treble at +1. :p
Actually, I don't think the simple tone controls used domestically lengthen the signal path too much. Many of these were in the line buffer anyway and had negligible effect *at the time.*
Having said the above, both my preamps are rather better than what was regarded as "good" twenty five years ago and have no additional filtering of the signal at all as far as I can see (the AVI claims to go out to 300KHz IIRC......)
C'mon guys, please don't start this "theoretical" discussion again... It's all about semantics and absolute expressions which can't tell the whole story, anyway. ;)
In fact, we all agree on our approach to music and hifi, I tend to pay attention to what we agree instead of bugger flies with you.
What do you think ? :smoking:
It's like I said; there aren't any forums that advocate poor sound at inflated prices.
Everything Pink Floyd sung on their albums released on various media is true! :ner:
Rare Bird
23-02-2010, 18:01
That's like saying anything with four legs and a tail that doesn't go miaow is a dog.
Well in that case Flat Earth = the then Naim/Linn
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 19:37
Quote:
Is the bass in time with the percussion? Does the piece hang together as a whole?
Ye Gods, I wanna listen to music, not analyse it!
OK, does the system enable you to just enjoy the music without making you analyse it?
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 19:46
So does this mean that if something is stated on PFM it must be true?
No it just means that their FAQ has pretty well nailed what the flat earth is about to the extent that anyone not understanding what it is about is probably being deliberately obtuse.
Stratmangler
23-02-2010, 20:00
Me too!!
Ahem ;)
Marco.
Looks like we're out voted here bud - more's the pity.
If I was remotely interested in the goings on over at PFM I'd have joined the membership over there.
I haven't joined PFM, yet I'm still informed as to the goings on over there - is this a lose/lose situation or what ?
Chris:rolleyes:
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 20:02
I don't think having a quick look at their FAQ section (similar to our Library) is going to expose you to the goings on over there.
I know that many regard the place as being dominated by Linn/Naim. I guess this place is different in that and other respects. It would be chucking the baby out with the bathwater though to suggest that you can't learn anything from a forum that has aspects to it that aren't to your taste. That's just silly.
Stratmangler
23-02-2010, 20:17
I don't think having a quick look at their FAQ section (similar to our Library) is going to expose you to the goings on over there.
I know that many regard the place as being dominated by Linn/Naim. I guess this place is different in that and other respects. It would be chucking the baby out with the bathwater though to suggest that you can't learn anything from a forum that has aspects to it that aren't to your taste. That's just silly.
It has sod all to do with any aspects that may or may not be to my taste. I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, yet you insist on dragging it over here.
I come here for what this place has to offer, not to have the PFM way of things thrust down my throat.
Any chance some originality please ?
Chris:rolleyes:
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 20:28
I've not dragged a discussion over here. I've merely linked to a FAQ.
There is no need for the petulance.
It has sod all to do with any aspects that may or may not be to my taste. I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, yet you insist on dragging it over here.
I come here for what this place has to offer, not to have the PFM way of things thrust down my throat.
Any chance some originality please ?
Chris:rolleyes:
I agree
'flat earth' and 'linn/naim' is utterly boring, pointless:rolleyes:
Im off to fettle my new decca gold :)
Im off to fettle my new decca gold :)
That's the first time I've heard it referred to as that!! :lol:
Marco.
Stratmangler
23-02-2010, 20:45
I've not dragged a discussion over here. I've merely linked to a FAQ.
There is no need for the petulance.
And who exactly keeps asking this FAQ ?
I can't find any evidence of the membership here clamouring to find out stuff from the PFM FAQ section.
No petulance on my part - just getting my point across !
Chris:rolleyes:
Steve Toy
23-02-2010, 21:00
Chris, as well as being admin I'm also part of the membership. The PFM FAQ item is relevant to this thread. I'm sure you do not speak on behalf of all the members and lurkers of this forum. Furthermore if the topic of this thread is not to your liking there are plenty of others.
I don't object to certain programmes on the telly, I just change channel. I suggest you do the same.
We've got plenty of other threads here that obviously interest you more so the navel gazing really isn't necessary.
OK, does the system enable you to just enjoy the music without making you analyse it?
Yep, the majority of the time anyway. My system isn't the most accurate by any means, and there's a lot wrong with the room, but on the whole, yes.
The important thing to remember is that this is primarily a flat earth forum and even if you
don't have a system that could/would have been considered flat earth back in the day it
doesn't matter now, as it's the attitude that counts.
Also as no one is getting any younger "pipe and slipper" systems that were treated with
scorn are now perfectly acceptable (if not actively encouraged)
So just sit back and relax, whatever you have is fine (apart from people using Naim and Linn,
they might want to find a forum more suitable to their needs)
Steve Toy
24-02-2010, 10:26
Pipe and slipper systems are still treated with scorn ;)
Why invest large sums of money and space in your living room for background music?
Flat earth is state of mind which has been obsoulete since the demise of the flat responce, pushed in yer face music with an artifically uptempo'd speed combined with an inflated bass hump hightened kick around 60-110hz mark, two dimensionality and forward presenation to give that 'wooo its musical' my foots a tapping style of sound..
At the expense of a natural, unforced sound with depth, texture, detail and a three dimensional presentation that has all the speed, rythymic poise of the original recording and you can listen to for hours.
As for the pipe and slippers sound, it makes more sales in the UK than the earther's (reformed) or otherwise care to think (!)
For those that truly understand music and it's effect of your soul and mind, flat and round earth are just phrases created by marketing bods from a long ago era.
Musical systems have been available now for a good few years, from a few good dealers arcoss the UK, you just have to seek them out, not box swapping but a state of contentment.
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