View Full Version : The dilemma of paradise.
Floyddroid
05-07-2016, 10:40
I recently read with interest a thread about the best phono stage to use with a Denon 103. It was suggested that a Paradise phono stage is the way to go. Excellent I thought. Having heard Alan Towell's rather magnificent example I can only concur how good it is. Though if like me you don't have the necessary knowledge and skills to build one yer pretty much Donald Ducked. I scoured tinternet to see if I could find a second hand one to no avail. So what may be a great recommended match seems to be exclusive to those with ingenuity to build such devices. So, in the light of this I will ask the original question with this in mind. Which is the best commercially available phono stage to match the venerable Denon DL103? I am intrigued. :scratch:
topoxforddoc
05-07-2016, 10:45
I think Simon sq225917 on PFM has has built a number of these for PFMers
Wakefield Turntables
05-07-2016, 11:14
I have a upto date (I think) 4 box version and I would say that the sugden masterclass pa4 sounds very similar (to my ears) but it very much depends on what music you want to play and your budget. I like prog just like yourself. I use the sugden for prog because I think it reproduces prog better than the paradise. As a slightly left field suggestions what about a Lentek head amp.
Hi Steve,
Much as I love the Paradise phono stage, having heard versions of it now on three occasions, I'm not sure that it's particularly suited to the DL-103 any more so than it is to any other high-quality MC cartridge.
In my experience, which with optimising DL-103s is considerable, they really 'like' a quality valve MM phono stage (such as anything Jez, Firebottle or lurcher could build for you), used in conjunction with an equally high-quality MC head amp (again made by any of the trio of gents mentioned) or SUT.
Or, as Andy says, you could use a Lentek head amp, with any of said valve MM stages, which you can usually pick up on ebay for about £70. The Lentek positively LOVES the DL-103, and used in conjunction with a quality valve MM stage, you'd be blown away by the sound produced. Trust me! ;)
Marco.
Floyddroid
06-07-2016, 05:26
All interesting replies. I already own a Firebottle Phono stage which is at present set at 100 ohms. Are you saying that i should set it for MM and use the Lentek?
Firebottle
06-07-2016, 06:02
Give it a try Steve, you can always revert back to MC input.
I have to agree with Marco that there is something added to the mix with a separate head amp into an MM stage. Don't understand it but there you are.
:)
Ali Tait
06-07-2016, 07:10
Yep seems to work well. Steve, get one of Alan's head amps. Not expensive and very good.
Wakefield Turntables
06-07-2016, 08:18
Steve,
I'm in a similar situation to yourself. I have a Denon 103M, a modified Croft Charisma MM stage and a Nick Gorham pimped Lentek Headamp. Guess what, I've not heard any of it yet :steam: It's my own fault though as I've simply been stupidly busy at work.
Andy
All interesting replies. I already own a Firebottle Phono stage which is at present set at 100 ohms. Are you saying that i should set it for MM and use the Lentek?
Yup, exactly that, or as the other guys are saying, try your existing Firebottle phono stage with one of Alan's head amps :)
But if you can find a Lentek, it'll work superbly well for not much dosh :cool:
Marco.
martinjohn308
06-07-2016, 09:53
Yes Simon has built at least 16 Paradise units, I know as I bought no 14. Miles better than my previous phono stage Whest Audio 30R good as it is but the Paradise is on another planet.
Regards,
Martin
Hi Steve,
Much as I love the Paradise phono stage, having heard versions of it now on three occasions, I'm not sure that it's particularly suited to the DL-103 any more so than it is to any other high-quality MC cartridge.
In my experience, which with optimising DL-103s is considerable, they really 'like' a quality valve MM phono stage (such as anything Jez, Firebottle or lurcher could build for you), used in conjunction with an equally high-quality MC head amp (again made by any of the trio of gents mentioned) or SUT.
Or, as Andy says, you could use a Lentek head amp, with any of said valve MM stages, which you can usually pick up on ebay for about £70. The Lentek positively LOVES the DL-103, and used in conjunction with a quality valve MM stage, you'd be blown away by the sound produced. Trust me! ;)
Marco.
This matches my experience.
I have a 103 that has been heavily reworked by Dom at Northwest Analogue - I'm using a Croft valve MC headamp with external PSU same as the one for the 25RS into the MM phono stage of the Croft 25RS - the results are "better" than any of the various SUT's I've tried. Sound character is very valve dependent IMO - I've settled on using Seimens CCa's in the headamp
Steve
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wakefield Turntables
06-07-2016, 17:08
Yes Simon has built at least 16 Paradise units, I know as I bought no 14. Miles better than my previous phono stage Whest Audio 30R good as it is but the Paradise is on another planet.
Regards,
Martin
Nice to see someone else actually thinks the paradise trumps the Whest. I personally cant see what the big thing is with Whest phonostages.
wasnt overly impressed with my whest
337alant
06-07-2016, 18:53
I wasent impressed at all with Steves Whest
Steve I will let you know how the 103 sounds with the Paradise shortly :D
I also have a little lentek and a MM stage so I will try that as well
https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3852/15091308232_36088f6e06_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oZyUaw)paradise 1 (https://flic.kr/p/oZyUaw) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr
https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8131/8757411349_7d5003ae9f_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ekS2hR). (https://flic.kr/p/ekS2hR) by Alan Towell (https://www.flickr.com/photos/69508926@N05/), on Flickr
Alan
Floyddroid
06-07-2016, 20:30
I had a Whest 30R and had nothing but Earth problems with it. When i eventually got it sorted i still wasn't happy with it's performance. As well documented i had an NVA Phono 2 for a short while and that was much better.
Floyddroid
06-07-2016, 21:34
Been having a shuffty around for a Lentek Step up. Nowt! rare as rocking horse shite.
martinjohn308
12-07-2016, 07:22
The only downside to owning the Paradise is that it comes in 4 boxes a la Naim 110 size. The plus side is that it's a wonderful phono stage. Trust me you won't be looking for anything else you've reached Nirvana!
PM Simon he's a great chap to deal with also he's build quality is second to none.
Regards,
Martin
sq225917
12-07-2016, 22:39
Andy, I really need to mod yours to current spec. Ten new caps, four swapped transistors, four new resistors.
337alant
13-07-2016, 04:10
Simon
Are these worthwhile mods?.
If so do you have more details please.
Alan
Wakefield Turntables
13-07-2016, 08:11
Andy, I really need to mod yours to current spec. Ten new caps, four swapped transistors, four new resistors.
You have a PM.
martinjohn308
13-07-2016, 08:27
Morning Simon,
Would my Paradise be up to spec, I know that I think mine had the latest power supply transformers?
Regards,
Martin
Floyddroid
13-07-2016, 12:32
Yup, exactly that, or as the other guys are saying, try your existing Firebottle phono stage with one of Alan's head amps :)
But if you can find a Lentek, it'll work superbly well for not much dosh :cool:
Marco.
The Lentek arrived today. Hope to have it installed this evening ready for a blast at the weekend.
Floyddroid
14-07-2016, 22:00
Bloody hell. Dashed thing ain't working. Having taken advise from Marco i discovered there was no battery inside. F.....g great! Away to Tesco's tomorrow for a Duracell. Bollocks. Watch this space.
The Lentek arrived today. Hope to have it installed this evening ready for a blast at the weekend.
strictly speaking your not allowed to send batteries unless in manufacturers packaging. May be the reason why.
sq225917
14-07-2016, 23:47
Alan the full list of what I use against standard builds.
This shot gives some of the details for the above board stuff.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/26712035205/in/dateposted/
2sk170 on the top of the board (idss 8.5ma), I think j107 was the supplied part.
Opa 627, lower dc offset than the standard part, pricey but they cut dc offset by x5 and have faster settling time.
I add 2 x22uf organic polymer caps right on the input of the +/- voltage to the main boards.
The first two caps on the board, 100uf and 10uf I replace with Wurth organic polymer caps.
I use 4n and 2.2n film caps under the board for compensation of the 327 an 337 under the heatsink. This lowers the speed of the shunt a little but stabilises the voltage.
I add a 470n film cap to ground from the 3rd leg (right leg) of the left most and right most devices on the heatsink. I do these under the board (but describe them as you see them from above) as they solder directly to the exposed ground around the bolt holes for the heatsink.
I use 2sk170 at the back end of the shunt, with 360r resistors instead of the 3.3k. you can use cheaper j113 and 1k, they work almost as well and are much cheaper.
For the 10k resistor that bridges the signal input to gnd I use either a MELF or naked vishay/charcroft. My own uses vishays here and in the riaa, the riaa was overkill, not worth the $180... but you have to try these things.
and I always build them with Calvins.
Because the group buy for new paradise psu pre-reg boards fell to bits I've had some pcbs made that take a block transformer and the common mode coils, + snubbers. I'm just about to build a set of these up with Les's minicap boards and the Hammond chokes. this will be exactly the same as the group psu but with an extra smoothing cap in the filter. So psu will be traffo, common mode coils, snubbers, Q-speed schotky diodes (RC snubbed), then the main CRCRLC with whatever 30mm caps one chooses and the Hammond chokes provide a 300mA choke. With the correct traffo this gives out 25.8v under load.
If you've got space this additional pcb and the hammond chokes is very worthwhile. I currently run minicap boards from Les and it's not as ballsy or as refined as the group buy psu units I've built. (I just never had spare boards to upgrade my own when i was building for customers.)
I can pop up sometime with my unit once I've completed the psu rebuild and you can give it a blast, see if you think it's worthwhile.
Hope that helps, I can provide more pics if you need them, most of them are in that flickr account already, apart from caps, under the board.
Simon
Floyddroid
17-07-2016, 17:23
Well, here's how it goes. I put a battery in it and connected it to by FB set to MM and all was going well until i heard some cracking noises from the speakers and the protection circuitry of my power amps shut them down. This happened twice so i have taken the Lentek back out. The brief listen i had with it seemed positive but it seems like the unit may be faulty. I dare not risk putting it back into the system.
Bloody hell. Dashed thing ain't working. Having taken advise from Marco i discovered there was no battery inside. F.....g great! Away to Tesco's tomorrow for a Duracell. Bollocks. Watch this space.
337alant
17-07-2016, 18:12
Alan the full list of what I use against standard builds.
This shot gives some of the details for the above board stuff.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/59684834@N08/26712035205/in/dateposted/
2sk170 on the top of the board (idss 8.5ma), I think j107 was the supplied part.
Opa 627, lower dc offset than the standard part, pricey but they cut dc offset by x5 and have faster settling time.
I add 2 x22uf organic polymer caps right on the input of the +/- voltage to the main boards.
The first two caps on the board, 100uf and 10uf I replace with Wurth organic polymer caps.
I use 4n and 2.2n film caps under the board for compensation of the 327 an 337 under the heatsink. This lowers the speed of the shunt a little but stabilises the voltage.
I add a 470n film cap to ground from the 3rd leg (right leg) of the left most and right most devices on the heatsink. I do these under the board (but describe them as you see them from above) as they solder directly to the exposed ground around the bolt holes for the heatsink.
I use 2sk170 at the back end of the shunt, with 360r resistors instead of the 3.3k. you can use cheaper j113 and 1k, they work almost as well and are much cheaper.
For the 10k resistor that bridges the signal input to gnd I use either a MELF or naked vishay/charcroft. My own uses vishays here and in the riaa, the riaa was overkill, not worth the $180... but you have to try these things.
and I always build them with Calvins.
Because the group buy for new paradise psu pre-reg boards fell to bits I've had some pcbs made that take a block transformer and the common mode coils, + snubbers. I'm just about to build a set of these up with Les's minicap boards and the Hammond chokes. this will be exactly the same as the group psu but with an extra smoothing cap in the filter. So psu will be traffo, common mode coils, snubbers, Q-speed schotky diodes (RC snubbed), then the main CRCRLC with whatever 30mm caps one chooses and the Hammond chokes provide a 300mA choke. With the correct traffo this gives out 25.8v under load.
If you've got space this additional pcb and the hammond chokes is very worthwhile. I currently run minicap boards from Les and it's not as ballsy or as refined as the group buy psu units I've built. (I just never had spare boards to upgrade my own when i was building for customers.)
I can pop up sometime with my unit once I've completed the psu rebuild and you can give it a blast, see if you think it's worthwhile.
Hope that helps, I can provide more pics if you need them, most of them are in that flickr account already, apart from caps, under the board.
Simon
Simon thanks for that excellent and detailed information , and yes I would love to hear one of your fully loaded Paradise Phonos :eyebrows:;)
I sure Steve would as well
Alan
sq225917
17-07-2016, 18:34
Yeh, we can arrange that. I can probably squeeze it in one week night?
337alant
17-07-2016, 18:52
Fabulous can't wait:D
Alan
337alant
17-07-2016, 18:53
Steve
I will rewire mine and you can try that, give me a couple of days
Alan
Floyddroid
17-07-2016, 20:47
Steve
I will rewire mine and you can try that, give me a couple of days
Alan
OK dude. Will you check this one out for me Al?
337alant
18-07-2016, 17:31
Yes of course Stevesee you soon
Floyddroid
18-07-2016, 21:54
Yes of course Stevesee you soon
Yes mate. I will have a drive over. Let me know when you are home.
337alant
21-07-2016, 22:17
Im at home now Steve
I have found my lentek and its in bits and it looks like I had started to try and de pot it I remember I trying to work out the circuit but it looks like I never finished the job?
Anyway Ill put it back together, give me a ring in the morning
Alan
Well, here's how it goes. I put a battery in it and connected it to by FB set to MM and all was going well until i heard some cracking noises from the speakers and the protection circuitry of my power amps shut them down. This happened twice so i have taken the Lentek back out. The brief listen i had with it seemed positive but it seems like the unit may be faulty. I dare not risk putting it back into the system.
Nightmare, mate. I wonder what could be causing that? :hmm:
Anyway, try Alan's and see how you get on :)
Marco.
Floyddroid
24-07-2016, 21:35
The Lentek will be admitted to Alan T's emergency clinic this week.
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