View Full Version : Speakers, speakers ,speakers.
57charles
01-07-2016, 15:39
Recently joined this forum which I've found to be the most interesting on the internet.
My main interest is loudspeakers - why? - I don't know - maybe because with over 40 years of listening to hi-fi, I've found the item which makes the most difference is the speakers. I don't wish to start a debate on this subject, however - I'd much rather talk about speakers and I would like to share some of my experiences with you. In the late 70's I worked in hi-fi retail for 2.5 years and had the opportunity to listen to many, many mostly British speakers and I believe mid 70's to mid 80's were the most interesting for the consumer of speakers. I think what fascinated me most was the plethora of so many smaller manufacturers who sometimes produced better products than the 'big boys' which I felt were KEF, B & W, Celestion and Wharfedale. Furthermore, some were using KEF drive units and sounded 'better' than the equivalent KEF (to my ears, at least!). I say 'better' in inverted commas because it was, at times quite subjective - again fascinating for me. Many of these manufacturers were based in old rented garages, barns etc and employed only a handful of staff yet produced some very fine speakers for the time - the term 'box stuffers' springs to mind. I miss this diversity now - I miss listening to different manufacturers versions of the classic 8" Dalesford Audax soft dome tweeter combo all sounding different.
Until recently (October 2015) I lived in Norwich - not exactly well known for hi-fi loudspeaker production with the major exception of RAM electronics. A few years ago, I went through the stage of buying, listening to re-selling some older speakers (always at a loss) - I did it for fun and enjoyment not a business and it was brilliant comparing them to other speakers I had heard and owned in the past and present.
If anyone is interested, I'd like to talk about some of my experiences with speakers over the years. For example, I remember listening to RAM STL4's - not boasting but I bet I'm one of the very few - I'd like to talk about speakers that really stuck in my mind eg Yamaha NS1000's and Celestion SL700SE's etc etc.
If anyone is interested, please let me know.
In any case, thanks for a wonderful forum.
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 15:45
You are not alone Charles. There are a few of us who have a thing about speakers. I'm one. I do like playing around with various drive units and have loads of them. Even though I'm really a dedicated Tannoy DC fan.
RobbieGong
01-07-2016, 17:33
Deja vu Charles and a good thread. I too have had speakers on my mind for a long time and wanted to start some kind of thread about speakers - It's long over due.
I dont have vast experience of lots of different speakers but what I do know i know, if that makes sense :)
Many of the names you mentioned and others had what I'd call a hey day to some degree. By that I mean they all seem to have produced speakers us hifi fanatics regard as 'classics' and good speakers that would grace any decent set up to this day. Add Mission, Tannoy, JBL and others to the KEF, B&W, Celestion and Wharfedale list.
There are so many others to discuss too, like Spendor, Harbeth, PMC, Focal, ATC, Monitor Audio, Usher and so on - There's a very long list.
Like all things hifi, all components have a signature, flavour or characteristic and that's what I'm hoping will be expressed here because that can be very useful when deciding the upgrade or route you may want to take.
For example, Spendors are renowned for being non fatiguing (some say polite), detailed and wonderful in the mids, as well as fairly neutral sounding, all of which are very important factors for me. Some find them a bit too polite.
Others like a more lively, dynamic and exciting sound. I've no idea which speakers are renowned for that flavour so i'm hoping here is where we'll find out the 'general characteristic' behind some brands or particular speakers.
There's a lot to express regards speakers, imaging, soundstage, neutrality, openness, dynamics, realism, texture / timbre, holographic, mids, high and low frequency extension - Yep bring it on !!!
Just realised that not all these speakers fall into 'Past Masters' Do you prefer your thread to cover only past speakers or speakers in the wider context ? If the latter let us know and maybe the thread could be moved. Your thread, Your shout - I know which I'd prefer ;)
Interesting topic. Daunting task to record or even evaluate more than few dozen makers.
Speaker 'makers' have come and Gone .... in their Thousands over the years.
Astoundingly to me, there still seems to be new ones sprouting (and fading) monthly.
After chopping and changing trying to find something that suited my needs, I decided to go along the fullrange path I have not been disappointed. They are not perfect but good ones are simple and as close as I need. I now only have 1 set of non full range ones, and its likely to stay that way.(bar test speakers)
RobbieGong
01-07-2016, 18:37
After chopping and changing trying to find something that suited my needs, I decided to go along the fullrange path I have not been disappointed. They are not perfect but good ones are simple and as close as I need. I now only have 1 set of non full range ones, and its likely to stay that way.(bar test speakers)
What does full range mean Grant, sorry if I'm being thick but what are they and what do you get with them in terms of characteristic over other speakers ?
RobbieGong
01-07-2016, 18:46
Interesting topic. Daunting task to record or even evaluate more than few dozen makers.
Speaker 'makers' have come and Gone .... in their Thousands over the years.
Astoundingly to me, there still seems to be new ones sprouting (and fading) monthly.
Yeah Danilo, It could be daunting but people expressing their experience of a speaker or particular brands and that general dna like I mentioned about the Spendors is what I think would be great to hear and very edifying in a general sense of course. It's more about members expressing their experience, how the'd describe 'that particular speakers sound' rather than a thread trying to cover every speaker known to man :)
I mean I can express that I find my Mission 752 Freedoms to be very well balanced, organic / natural sounding, great imaging, detailed and excel in the mids and vocals, tight punchy bass rather than weighty, low and extended bass - (which is to be expected from a 6.5 inch mid/bass driver) and non fatiguing too. In my opinion a genuine audio bargain on the used market. They respond to every upgrade and sound better and better - I'm a big big fan hence would keep them if I ever 'upgrade' just in case ;)
What does full range mean Grant, sorry if I'm being thick but what are they and what do you get with them in terms of characteristic over other speakers ?
1 speaker does all frequencies without any electronics in the way. Good ones are very good. not everyones cup of tea I realise but I love them. I have made 4 sets now, and all are good uns, with a nice relaxing yet expressive mid range. All mine are designed to work as Reflex speakers.
My latest double cone ones are just posted in my gallery page
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 18:55
Grant has cornered the market in vintage Telefunkens. :D
Grant has cornered the market in vintage Telefunkens. :D
always looking for more :D
Timely thread for me as I just spent the afternoon at Paul's (Reference Fidelity Components) place listening to his Tannoys and talking speaker design. I think we both agreed that the perfect speaker has yet to be made but there is no substitute for cubic inches i.e the bigger the better. Not sure we broke any new ground there ;) But highly enjoyable all the same.
Timely thread for me as I just spent the afternoon at Paul's (Reference Fidelity Components) place listening to his Tannoys and talking speaker design. I think we both agreed that the perfect speaker has yet to be made but there is no substitute for cubic inches i.e the bigger the better. Not sure we broke any new ground there ;) But highly enjoyable all the same.
..err...they're not Tannoys...they're RFC Canterburys using RFC crossovers, RFC designed cabinets but do use Tannoy drive units :lol: Good to meet up Martin, and I enjoyed the day and the chat and the music.
I agree. No substitute for cubes. I haven't yet heard a small speaker that can truly convince in the same way that a good big 'un can, and prefer the attributes of sensitive designs over more inefficient designs.
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 20:47
I haven't yet heard a small speaker that can truly convince in the same way that a good big 'un can, and prefer the attributes of sensitive designs over more inefficient designs.
The original Bose 901 wasn't very big, but did some pretty monstrous scale and power even in big rooms.
(no it wasn't sensitive)
But diid they do it effortlessly? The speaker has to sound like it is just ticking over even at maximum dynamics. The effortlessness is very important.
walpurgis
01-07-2016, 21:03
But diid they do it effortlessly? The speaker has to sound like it is just ticking over even at maximum dynamics. The effortlessness is very important.
Certainly. The 901 sounds as if it is just cruising even when approaching its quite substantial limit. It's an incredibly spacious sound too. They sound like no other speaker. Not necessarily that accurate, but very enjoyable. The tightness at the bottom end is astonishing and the top end has much of what good panel speakers offer. Looking at them, you think it shouldn't work, but it does.
It's quite some time since I heard them, but I have, on many occasions.
don't they use some sort of primitive equalisation? or am I getting mixed up?
Geeeez! Bought 901's in early 70's. Mine proved completely inadequate to purpose within hours of use!
Absolutely worthless for the prices demanded.
No other descriptor is adequate. But Hey! the complete proof is in hearing the things
Their 'equaliser' was intrinsic/included and It and the multi Cones Sucked up watts like a Hoover.. a problem in itself.
IF one had a Massive concrete wall as essential Backdrop to the 'waves' generated by their low quality 2 (3?) " drivers (IIRC 9 of the things per enclosure)...they elevated to Mid Fi SQ.
Their 'performance qualities' quickly became common knowledge amongst audio weenie wannabees.
As result they were erm damned difficult to resell (a month on) for even a fraction of their cost.
The well laid Cornerstone of the Bose reputation :-)
Reading between the lies here but my guess is you didn't like them?
Beobloke
05-07-2016, 11:53
For example, I remember listening to RAM STL4's - not boasting but I bet I'm one of the very few - I'd like to talk about speakers that really stuck in my mind eg Yamaha NS1000's and Celestion SL700SE's etc etc.
If anyone is interested, please let me know.
In any case, thanks for a wonderful forum.
I would love to hear your thoughts on the RAM STL4s. They are one of those loudspeakers with almost mythical status and the wonder whether RAM did actually make any production models - it's good to hear they did!
Audio Al
05-07-2016, 11:56
I'm keeping quiet on this thread :o
Speakers? Yet to find a decent pair. They're all a bit rubbish if you try hard to find their flaws.
The catch is some are less rubbish than others... that is what makes it interesting;)
walpurgis
05-07-2016, 18:00
The 'perfect' speaker has yet to be made. But there again, the perfect anything does not exist either.
I'd possibly settle for a set of these though:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2myd8ae.jpg
Avant Garde Acoustics Trio Omega G2
57charles
07-07-2016, 00:53
I would love to hear your thoughts on the RAM STL4s. They are one of those loudspeakers with almost mythical status and the wonder whether RAM did actually make any production models - it's good to hear they did!
I have seen and heard the STL4's. They were imposing speakers utilizing 2 x Dalesford 8" bass units in a transmission line 1 x 8" Dalesford mid range and the ubiquitous Audax soft dome tweeter as used in the later Bookshelf Monitor MK 2, the Mini Bookshelf, the 100, 150 and 200.
They had the brown RAM grille material of the time in 2 sections ala Celestion 662. I hasten to add they were larger than the 662 and sounded superior - it's just the 2 piece grille arrangement was the same. I would describe the sound as super smooth and effortless - in my opinion they had no equals at the time. Only a handful were made probably because of not only the cost but the sheer bulk of these things - no doubt a large room was required and an understanding better half.
For me, the best RAM speakers were the first range - i.e. the Bookshelf and RAM 1. Both employed Dalesford 8' bass/ mids with the Isophon (I think, white KK10?) tweeter. They both had the characteristic RAM warm detailed sound - both had great bass for their size and in particular the RAM1 with their resistive port made up of drinking straws situated above the tweeter. The later RAM 1's used the Audax soft dome tweeter and to my ears didn't sound as balanced same as the Bookshelf Monitor MK2 which again used the Audax tweeter. I understand the supply of the iso
57charles
07-07-2016, 01:04
I understand the supply of the Isophon was terminated by a problem at the manufacturers factory. Anyway, to my ears the Isophon was a better sounding tweeter than the Audax. I have had Monitor Audio MA4 series 1 (Isophon) and series 2 (Audax) - series 1 far superior speaker in my opinion. Anyway, I much prefer the earlier RAM speakers - namely Bookshelf monitor MK1, RAM 1, RAM 2 and RAM 3 compared to the later bookshelf monitor MK2, 100, 150, and 200. And the CD20, DS60, DS70 and DS80.Want to know more about RAM - let me know - want to know about the Gemini/Scorpio range which were about to be launched just before the end of RAM? They utilized Goodmans 8" see through drivers ala Goodmans Achromat Beta, Kappa and Sigma ( without the Hitachi V pleat surrounds) - they were never launched - I bet B &W, KEF and Celestion were relieved - they blew all their comparable models out of the water. I saw RAM ls3/5A's produced - I know how the RAM 400 was developed.
Shame they went under - nothing to do with the performance of the speakers, I might add.
The 'perfect' speaker has yet to be made. But there again, the perfect anything does not exist either.
I'd possibly settle for a set of these though:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2myd8ae.jpg
Avant Garde Acoustics Trio Omega G2
I've heard their smaller siblings Geoff, and what they did well they did superbly well, especially Piano and vocals. However, for me, money-no-object, it would have to be the Tannoy Kingdom Royals as some of the best all-rounders available today:
http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/catalog/product/t/a/tannoy-kingdom-royal-speakers-pair-black.jpg
Only problem being that you'd need a pretty large room and these aren't the sort of speakers that stand neatly towards the rear wall!
Also, they're butt ugly. They are indeed near the top of the rubbish tip, however.
Not seen Duos and Trios together before. Gross room, wonder whether the combo works that well. Trios and basshorns close to world's best according to these ears.
walpurgis
07-07-2016, 19:11
Has anybody heard these yet?
http://i64.tinypic.com/vwvnza.jpg
Living Voice Vox Olympian.
walpurgis
07-07-2016, 19:57
Yup.
And?
Who cares what they sound like? You just sit there and admire the veneering!
I've heard their smaller siblings Geoff, and what they did well they did superbly well, especially Piano and vocals. However, for me, money-no-object, it would have to be the Tannoy Kingdom Royals as some of the best all-rounders available today:
http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/catalog/product/t/a/tannoy-kingdom-royal-speakers-pair-black.jpg
Only problem being that you'd need a pretty large room and these aren't the sort of speakers that stand neatly towards the rear wall!
They're both hideous to look at IMO. Haven't heard the Avant Guard horns, but there are very few horn loaded speakers I can live with.
walpurgis
07-07-2016, 20:32
Haven't heard the Avant Guard horns, but there are very few horn loaded speakers I can live with.
I suspect they'd surprise you Barry. They don't sound like horns, not to me. In fact they sound like no other speaker I've heard.
And?
A few thoughts on this page.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19013-Living-Voice-Vox-Olympian-Kevin-Scott-talking-about-the-design-(video)/page5&highlight=kondo+User211
I've heard a number of Avant Garde horns a number of times, including those pictured. I'm afraid that every time they exhibited the colouration aspects expected of horns - that didn't stop them from being entertaining though.
I disagree, Mark. I think they are about the least coloured horns going. The Duos and Nanos have bass integration issues, but the Trios and basshorns work superbly well together. I think that's due to the way the basshorns disperse sound i.e. it is not dissimilar to the horns.
Of course any AG model at least partially sounds like a horn, because that is what they are, but they just aren't that coloured to my ears when compared to many other horn designs. The Trio/basshorn setup, in a large room, is well capable of casting a very believable large soundscape that sounds very accurate, really. Absolutely world class, without any shadow of a doubt.
As with all of these things, it is a very personal choice. There are some horn systems that I could easily live with sound-wise and top of the list would probably be these:
http://www.audiomeister.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/main-liszt-600x600.jpg
Ok...not a true all-horn system, but uses twin 12 inch front loaded bass units driven by 1200Wpc SS active amplification to 80Hz, above which, they are passively driven. To hear these with TRON amps taking care of the mids/highs was mighty impressive. One of the best systems I've come across but demands large space and high ceilings not to mention deep pockets! To my mind, betters the Aventgarde Duos that I heard although those were pretty fine too.
User 211, that's fine - we can agree to disagree (though I do agree about the bass integration issues you mention). No doubt the Avant Garde's are less coloured than most horn systems, I don't disagree there, but I still feel those remaining colourations are sufficiently invasive. I've also heard the Cessaro's Paul mentions and felt they suffered even less from horn colourations.
The Lizst has that conventional driver versus horn dispersion problem, though. What's more, it is more marked than the latest Duos i.e. more obvious. I prefer the Trio / basshorn setup, in a huge room, by a good margin.
Good name, though. Franz Liszt was an interesting chap. Check Wiki out on him etc.
I'd like to hear Duo Mezzo or Duo Primo XD. I think they might work seriously well with the horn bass drivers.
walpurgis
08-07-2016, 09:27
Is that an Acapella model Paul?
I have heard earler Acapellas and been very impressed, especially with the pure top/mid. But with no moving mass apart from the plasma that's not surprising. It's a bit odd having speakers that 'twinkle' at you.
I think the Avant Garde Trio assembly would be my preference though. Not that my pocket is deep enough for any of the foregoing speakers. :)
Cessaro Liszt.
I shot this at Munich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78boGdZ3NlQ
For me it's not so much a dispersion issue as a speed and character of loading. The best horn systems I have heard have used front horn loading for all frequencies - inevitably this has made them huge (or they haven't gone very low). In general, I'm not a great fan of smaller horn systems as the compromises needed to reduce size are too sonically invasive IMO.
Is that an Acapella model Paul?
No, it made by Cessaro and called the Liszt. They don't use plasma tweeters - TAD compression drivers.
No, it made by Cessaro and called the Liszt. They don't use plasma tweeters - TAD compression drivers.
That's the ones Mark. The tweeters are a modified version of the TAD compression drivers using beryllium diaphragm and cobalt magnet. I didn't hear the bass integration problems Justin mentions tbh but wasn't listening to bass heavy music but rather some piano and light symphonic where they excelled.
They didn't play any bass heavy music did they Paul? When I heard them they seemed determined to play very middle of the road twiddly stuff.
--------
User211, your vid won't open on my iPad :(. Fixed now, seems to be a Tapatalk issue.
They didn't play any bass heavy music did they Paul? When I heard them they seemed determined to play very middle of the road twiddly stuff.
--------
User211, your vid won't open on my iPad :(.
Not when I heard them, but what I heard was sublime. Would I swap mine for them? :hmm: no, probably not, as overall, I'm more than satisfied with the RFC Canterburys. For the Cessaros, you'd really need a large room, high ceilings and not want to be sat up too close. A product for the wealthy. Mind you, I will be joining the Tron club as I've decided to replace my several box solution for the MC phono preamp with one of Grahams.
Yeah, I read you were getting a Tron phonostage - nicely made stuff.
User211, your vid won't open on my iPad :(.
The only good contemporary horns are expensive Mark, no question, and large. And there aren't many I think are that great.
iPad? Bad luck. I don't have one to test, and I'm too busy to investigate.
The only horn system I've heard that I could live with was Speedy Steve's multi-way effort. But if that was retail it would cost hundreds of thousands I suspect. All the others are okay with acoustic/simple music but not with rock music.
You don't tend to see horn speakers in recording studios so that is possibly why.
The only horn system I've heard that I could live with was Speedy Steve's multi-way effort. But if that was retail it would cost hundreds of thousands I suspect. All the others are okay with acoustic/simple music but not with rock music.
You don't tend to see horn speakers in recording studios so that is possibly why.
The problem Martin is that horn systems need huge bass horns to get anywhere close to being full frequency, and the size precludes them from most domestic spaces...think Western Eelectric 15 or 16A or larger. The really large ones that I've heard do things so differently though to conventional speakers that I can see their attraction. The music just appears to be there, and the dynamic swings and immediacy have to be experienced with these ultra high sensitivity designs. Trouble is they were never designed or meant to be for domestic spaces, most of the so-called high end horn systems today using active bass crossed over to passive mid/hf and that is something really hard to get right. The Cessaros I thought did a good job but again, I didn't experience them with bass heavy thump-thump music and guess that those wealthy enough to buy them aren't into electronica or dubstep!
I'm not sure you need huge bass to hear the issue I have with the Liszt.
The horn is up high and I found it really easy to detect obvious differences in sound by moving around a bit. I also became quite acutely aware of mid to high band sounds emanating from quite a height, even though I was sat way back.
Bear in mind I am used to a speaker that emanates bass/mid and treble from the same height. So maybe that makes me more sensitive to it than usual. The sound varies with my speakers as you move too, as it does with most, but I felt the Liszt to be more uneven that most in this regard. But even in a good listening spot with the Liszt, I can hear a difference in the way the sound is dispersed by the horn over the LF section.
Not saying I have brilliant hearing, but I know it would and did annoy me a bit.
Everything has flaws. Liszt is not the kind of flaw I'd want to dump multi-tens of thousands on. Others might feel differently. I also know one other person well who thought the same about the Liszt, so I am not alone.
The problem Martin is that horn systems need huge bass horns to get anywhere close to being full frequency, and the size precludes them from most domestic spaces...think Western Eelectric 15 or 16A or larger. The really large ones that I've heard do things so differently though to conventional speakers that I can see their attraction. The music just appears to be there, and the dynamic swings and immediacy have to be experienced with these ultra high sensitivity designs. Trouble is they were never designed or meant to be for domestic spaces, most of the so-called high end horn systems today using active bass crossed over to passive mid/hf and that is something really hard to get right. The Cessaros I thought did a good job but again, I didn't experience them with bass heavy thump-thump music and guess that those wealthy enough to buy them aren't into electronica or dubstep!
The system I'm talking about had tapped bass horns. So it did do the real low bass. And I think fully active 5 way. Someone said to me they thought it 'too big, like being in the cinema' But I quite like that.
I also like the mid bass to be a bit 'fruity' - I don't want that added upstream I like it to be a feature of the speakers. The bass side of the 'West Coast' sound. I know it is not neutral and it is the sort of balance they put into (or used to) 'lifestyle' systems. I know I shouldn't but I do. Not too much, not a comedy bass hump, Just that little bit of fruitiness - 80hz to 250 hz or thereabouts raised up a bit. But with the deep bass as well of course. So some speakers can be a bit too neutral for me I think.
I understand the supply of the Isophon was terminated by a problem at the manufacturers factory. Anyway, to my ears the Isophon was a better sounding tweeter than the Audax. I have had Monitor Audio MA4 series 1 (Isophon) and series 2 (Audax) - series 1 far superior speaker in my opinion. Anyway, I much prefer the earlier RAM speakers - namely Bookshelf monitor MK1, RAM 1, RAM 2 and RAM 3 compared to the later bookshelf monitor MK2, 100, 150, and 200. And the CD20, DS60, DS70 and DS80.Want to know more about RAM - let me know - want to know about the Gemini/Scorpio range which were about to be launched just before the end of RAM? They utilized Goodmans 8" see through drivers ala Goodmans Achromat Beta, Kappa and Sigma ( without the Hitachi V pleat surrounds) - they were never launched - I bet B &W, KEF and Celestion were relieved - they blew all their comparable models out of the water. I saw RAM ls3/5A's produced - I know how the RAM 400 was developed.
Shame they went under - nothing to do with the performance of the speakers, I might add.
Hi Charles.
I've got a pair of RAM DS80 here in the UK but also have shipped abroad to my holiday home a pair of B&W DM2.
I was wondering whether to keep the DS80 or break them down and use the Dalesford drivers in the DM2. Can't do a side by side comparison as I don't have the space for a proper audition on the DS80's. Have you had any experience with B&W's DM2? Would a bass driver from an ABR configuration be suitable in a transmission line configuration?
Kindest.
57charles
29-03-2024, 11:58
Hi Charles.
I've got a pair of RAM DS80 here in the UK but also have shipped abroad to my holiday home a pair of B&W DM2.
I was wondering whether to keep the DS80 or break them down and use the Dalesford drivers in the DM2. Can't do a side by side comparison as I don't have the space for a proper audition on the DS80's. Have you had any experience with B&W's DM2? Would a bass driver from an ABR configuration be suitable in a transmission line configuration?
Kindest.
Apart from the fact that the Dalesford driver will not be a simple drop in replacement into the DM2, it's not really viable to replace drive units from one completely different speaker to another. You will simply destroy the performance of the speaker. Loudspeakers are designed as a complete system.
If you enjoy the sound of both speakers then keep them original. If you have a faulty drive unit, look to obtain a second hand replacement (which is not always easy). Possibly change the caps but please don't attempt to swap around different drive units.
If you're unhappy with the sound of one or both of these speakers, get rid of them and buy something else that you like.
Best wishes.
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