TD160 Springs

[Haselsh1]

Last weekend I got the TD160 floating nicely on its springs and was oh so satisfied but today, around three days later, the whole lot has just bottomed out. I am convinced that the spring close to the motor assembly is now out of adjustment and needs replacing. In that case, and as far as I am concerned, the whole lot need replacing. So, the big question; where from here...? Any advice anyone...?

By the way, it is a 1983 TD160B MkII

[walpurgis]

That's a shame Shaun. Have the springs been previously stretched out at all? Sometimes that can affect their ability to remain 'springy' under loaded conditions.

I don't know, but would TD125 springs offer better load handling? There are a couple of used sets on offer from one seller on eBay.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

What is up Shaun can you not get it to bounce enough without the platter knocking on the top plate?

[Arkless Electronics]

I've never come across this before.... I have much older TD150's (same springs IIRC) that still work perfectly. If they are still going, Technical and General should have the parts. LP12 springs will also fit fine but are a bit stiffer.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

If that is the problem Shaun why not try putting a thick thrust plate in the bottom of the bearing housing.

[skimminstones]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD-160-145-147-160-MKII-145-MKII-Replacement-Spring-Kit-for-Turntable-/322117803751?hash=item4affb79ee7:g:iQ8AAOSwr7ZW7To L

im sure these have jumped in price in the last couple of weeks. I had them in my watch list and im sure they were about 15 quid plus postage.

[danilo]

Bottomed out ? Doesn't seen possible sans incurred damages.
Is there a Massive record weight in use ?
Are the springs coil bound... as in are the coils stacked together / touching each other?
If not and If it's merely sagging enough so the Platter touches the Plinth's faceplate. Keep adjusting 'til the platter rides level to the plinth face.
Add in a metal washer or 2 under the offending springs' rubber base grommet if you need yet more adjustment.

[Haselsh1]

What is up Shaun can you not get it to bounce enough without the platter knocking on the top plate?

Andr'e old pal, that is what is happening. The springs are up almost fully with very little adjustment left and the platter clouts that little post that sticks up near to the motor. I suspect that the springs have lost their strength and elasticity. By the way, I am using the original mat which as I am sure you are aware, is quite heavy but I currently have no record on it.

[struth]

Tis possible. I have a set of springs somewhere for a 150..think they are same...
These are great both for sound improvement and for raising outer platter a bit.. This set has 3 different heights.. Highly reccommended. It will allow you to clear the motor azamuth screw.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SRM-TECH-ADJUSTABLE-HEIGHT-TRIPOD-PLATTER-MOUNT-PLATTER-ISOLATION-/272261366654?hash=item3f640ac37e

[Virtual-Symmetry]

Sorry but i find it hard to believe the springs need changing.. Shaun have you attempted to set the suspension with both the Mat & Record on?

[Haselsh1]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thorens-TD-160-145-147-160-MKII-145-MKII-Replacement-Spring-Kit-for-Turntable-/322117803751?hash=item4affb79ee7:g:iQ8AAOSwr7ZW7To L

im sure these have jumped in price in the last couple of weeks. I had them in my watch list and im sure they were about 15 quid plus postage.

OK, I have just bought a set of these from the U.S. which will apparently take a couple of weeks to arrive. I am of course hoping that these will solve the problem. I have tried to set the suspension float using the turntable mat and a 180g vinyl record but no chance I'm afraid. The spring nearest to the motor has virtually no adjustment left on it and the suspension will no longer float the way it should. My guess is that the springs can no longer support the weight of the sub chassis and the mat and LP. Of course it is still possible that these new springs will not solve the current problem. At least the deck will have brand new springs though.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?13577-Putting-Linn-springs-on-my-Thorens

& true to my word i went back to vinyl. Got out my unsuspended deck from storage & never looked back :D

[danilo]

OK, I have just bought a set of these from the U.S. which will apparently take a couple of weeks to arrive. I am of course hoping that these will solve the problem. I have tried to set the suspension float using the turntable mat and a 180g vinyl record but no chance I'm afraid. The spring nearest to the motor has virtually no adjustment left on it and the suspension will no longer float the way it should. My guess is that the springs can no longer support the weight of the sub chassis and the mat and LP. Of course it is still possible that these new springs will not solve the current problem. At least the deck will have brand new springs though.

Dunno What? you've done .. Clearly you ..Have.. done something, this is beyond normal.
My only guess is that you've massively overloaded the thing. A Lead Mat perchance ? Big Brass LP weight?
OE mat works fine and arguably is the best possible fittment.. sonically.
Admittedly the later version 160's were 'cheapened'
But by so much that the springs can't cope ?
Blindly throwing Parts at it May (or may Not) solve the Bungle.
Good Luck with this adventure... imo yer gonna need it.

[Haselsh1]

Dunno What? you've done .. Clearly you ..Have.. done something, this is beyond normal.
My only guess is that you've massively overloaded the thing. A Lead Mat perchance ? Big Brass LP weight?
OE mat works fine and arguably is the best possible fittment.. sonically.
Admittedly the later version 160's were 'cheapened'
But by so much that the springs can't cope ?
Blindly throwing Parts at it May (or may Not) solve the Bungle.
Good Luck with this adventure... imo yer gonna need it.

What I did here last weekend was setup the suspension so that it floated nicely as indeed it should. When I returned to the deck on Tuesday the spring nearest the motor had collapsed and there was no adjustment remaining. Your suggestion that there has been some sort of "bungle" here is more than a tad ridiculous and offensive. I would like to suggest that you do not comment on this thread again unless you have something constructive to suggest. You may be used to making endless 'bungles' in your life but I am not. Fortunately, there are many highly positive and constructive people on this forum, it would appear though that you are not one of them.

I am quite sure these new springs will provide a solution to this, whatever the hell has happened here.

[struth]

Might be the inner platter settling into the bearing has caused some of the wrong height now.. They often take some time to find there optimum level.. But just a passin thought shaun.

[Haselsh1]

Grant, the only thing I can think is that it has been caused by excess heat as the deck is sat on a large pine table in a south facing window and last week was very hot here. Again, just a thought as I really don't know.

[struth]

Did you order those platter risers i linked to.. They will help , even if thats not current problem. The sonic improvements are great too..the extra mm is also benificial too as the azimuth screw is very close

[Haselsh1]

Did you order those platter risers i linked to.. They will help , even if thats not current problem. The sonic improvements are great too..the extra mm is also benificial too as the azimuth screw is very close

I haven't done yet Grant but I have every intention of doing so. I have read as much as I can about them and I like the look of them.

[walpurgis]

Shame you're not nearer Shaun. I'd have a look at it for you. I'm sure it can be sussed out.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

Shaun
I do not want to come across being rude but i think its not been adjusted properly. The thing with these decks is if you get one spring adjusted wrong it's knocks the others out & visa versa.I would try again with all the nuts set at the bottom of the studs & gradually tighten each up, going around them in order.. . That threaded stud should be perfectly in the cent of the rubber as it bounces.. When it comes to setting the motor tilt, i mentioned before lift off the platter, flip it upside down & re fit it, you can see the sub platter & belt that way.

[struth]

I would try and tighten all the springs a fair bit and get it levelish if its possible.. Its possible undo then too much and cause probs... The platter and the chassis having to accomodate each other without being connected. Good luck anyways

[Virtual-Symmetry]

But the thing is Grant they don't want to be tightened right up.

[struth]

Agree but they need to be under some tension or they will not work right. May not be this at all and Shaun may have tried it anyways.. I found tighter was better than looser as you have to accommodate the platter which is obviously seperate. If the plate rises to high then when the bearing sinks then the 2 come together

[Macca]

Grant, the only thing I can think is that it has been caused by excess heat as the deck is sat on a large pine table in a south facing window and last week was very hot here. Again, just a thought as I really don't know.

Just a word of caution re this - my deck also sits by a large window but the curtains are almost always shut. However I did leave them open one day after playing some tunes, came back about an hour later to find the record I'd left sat on the platter was warped to buggery.

It was sunny out but not that sunny and I hadn't been out long but it was still enough to ruin it. Original pressing, too.

[Spectral Morn]

Shaun
I do not want to come across being rude but i think its not been adjusted properly. The thing with these decks is if you get one spring adjusted wrong it's knocks the others out & visa versa.I would try again with all the nuts set at the bottom of the studs & gradually tighten each up, going around them in order.. . That threaded stud should be perfectly in the cent of the rubber as it bounces.. When it comes to setting the motor tilt, i mentioned before lift off the platter, flip it upside down & re fit it, you can see the sub platter & belt that way.

Used to have to set Roksan Xerxes up that way - horrible turntables - but it is a good way of keeping the platter weight in place and seeing whats happening underneath.

Hope you get it sorted Shaun

[Arkless Electronics]

The Xerxes is one of my al time favourite turntables :ner: For sound quality anyway... pity about the saggy top plates :eek:

[Spectral Morn]

The Xerxes is one of my al time favourite turntables :ner: For sound quality anyway... pity about the saggy top plates :eek:

And the horrific set up process/design. Last one I had the misfortune of setting up was a 10. Three hours later, after coming within a breadth of flinging it out the door of the shop I worked in I had it nearly right. Worst I ever worked on, crazy putting all the adjustments under the platter.

I feel for Shaun, not much worse than having a TT not play ball re being set up.

[Arkless Electronics]

And the horrific set up process/design. Last one I had the misfortune of setting up was a 10. Three hours later, after coming within a breadth of flinging it out the door of the shop I worked in I had it nearly right. Worst I ever worked on, crazy putting all the adjustments under the platter.

I feel for Shaun, not much worse than having a TT not play ball re being set up.

Indeed.As I said I've had loads of Thorens decks and I've never known springs just give up their springiness before.... Strange...

[Virtual-Symmetry]

For sound quality anyway...

Yeh like listerning to a CD player

:sofa:


Indeed.As I said I've had loads of Thorens decks and I've never known springs just give up their springiness before.... Strange...

Nor me.

[Spectral Morn]

Are the springs rated re strength, stretch under load ? With an Oracle Delphi the springs are colour coded so arms of different weight can be accommodated, and an equal bounce achieved.

Getting the positioning wrong or if coded incorrectly might cause collapse issues. Just a thought as I have never set up a TD160, in fact in all my years setting up decks I don't think I have ever set up a Thorens of any type.

[Haselsh1]

All I did last weekend was to adjust each nut to around 4mm from the bottom of each threaded stud. I then adjusted to get a nice bounce of the platter and arm and then left it alone. When I came back to it on Tuesday the front of the platter had grounded and the spring close to the motor left the platter resting on the motor stub. To adjust them now means that the spring closest to the motor is almost wound up fully and there is no longer any bounce to the platter assembly. If I back off the motor spring then it is grounding on the motor stub.

I have heard a story about one other fella who had this problem and he replaced all of his springs. In his case, it solved his problem.

[Macca]

Sounds like someone mucked about with it when you weren't there. If that is not possible then it does seem an odd thing to have happened

[Virtual-Symmetry]

Very weird Shaun.. There is a sleeve at the top of the stud held in place with another nut [half way down]. everything is not vertical, that nut can catch on the rubber. For it to drop on its own is mega odd.However if you think its the new springs that is the answer good luck mate..

[Haselsh1]

Sounds like someone mucked about with it when you weren't there. If that is not possible then it does seem an odd thing to have happened

I know what you mean but there is only Sue and the cat and neither of those would take the base off and mess with it. Yes though, I had thought about something happening in my absence.

[struth]

Are the rubbers ok? Maybe the heat got to them

[DSJR]

Last weekend I got the TD160 floating nicely on its springs and was oh so satisfied but today, around three days later, the whole lot has just bottomed out. I am convinced that the spring close to the motor assembly is now out of adjustment and needs replacing. In that case, and as far as I am concerned, the whole lot need replacing. So, the big question; where from here...? Any advice anyone...?

By the way, it is a 1983 TD160B MkII

Thorens springs aren't bad as LP12 springs used to be in the dark days ;), or at least shouldn't be.

I never removed the springs when setting 160's up as the inner damping foam could be removed with fine long-nosed pliers (I don't think it improved the sound by removing them, but the suspension bounced almost uncontrollably with the slightest external shock without them) and the springs were very firmly located on the small upper grommets Thorens used.
From personal experience, please don't use lubricants to fit the springs to the grommets. if the spring is offered to the grommet (maybe with the whole deck upside down?), it should seat quite well. You cannot centre the suspension by rotating the top grommet as you do an LP12, but Thorens fitted cam-shaped washers between the bottom grommet and the thin washer that the adjusting nut acts against.

If you need to rebuild from scratch, many TD160's (mk2 on?) have a hole in the top plate and also the sub chassis that acts as a centring aid, that you can look down through if one of the platter 'keyholes' is lined up to the left. Once the sub-chassis is got level, the cam washer is gently rotated WHILE HOLDING THE NUT IN PLACE to move the sub-chassis laterally to centre. It took experienced assembly workers around five minutes at the factory, so you and me may need half an hour. the suspension usually stays where it is once set though, so the fact yours has gone off means a mis-fitted spring I think..

P.S. I must sort my own TD160 out, even if it's to sell as I can't use decks like this here in the workroom due to a very springy floor.

[Haselsh1]

I am still convinced that the excess heat from being in a south facing window has something to do with this but of course it could just be a load of old bollox.

[Haselsh1]

Are the rubbers ok? Maybe the heat got to them

Grant, I haven't checked the rubbers but I will do today as I have all day to myself.

[Macca]

I am still convinced that the excess heat from being in a south facing window has something to do with this but of course it could just be a load of old bollox.

I'm still going with the cat sabotage theory. They are smarter than they pretend to be. Maybe he wants you to get a Technics?

[Haselsh1]

I'm still going with the cat sabotage theory. They are smarter than they pretend to be. Maybe he wants you to get a Technics?

LOL you nutter, yeah, maybe he's a secret DJ during the day when no one is around and he's not bloody impressed with all of this bouncey stuff.

[Haselsh1]

Right, I have had another look this morning and the tonearm spring and the forward most spring are OK but the motor spring just cannot clear the azimuth stub. If I crank up the motor spring to clear the stub, then it is fully compressed and of course, not acting like a spring.

[struth]

How dare you make his bed bouncy ... Hope you get to the bottom of it. I tightened mine up a bit to make it less bouncy and then left it. Sounded good to me. Not really into this bouncing for x amount of times or it wont sound right theory.

[Haselsh1]

How dare you make his bed bouncy ... Hope you get to the bottom of it. I tightened mine up a bit to make it less bouncy and then left it. Sounded good to me. Not really into this bouncing for x amount of times or it wont sound right theory.

I agree Grant, it all gets a tad OCD for no real reason.

[Arkless Electronics]

Did you rotate the rubber bits top and bottom of the springs? This is usually needed to get things right.... Sometimes the rubber can catch the spring and rotate it, kind of "winding up" the spring, this should be avoided! If wound up thus it is possible it could "unwind" as things settle. This is my best (and only) guess as to what has happened.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

This is so funny [No for Shaun minst] Been there done it years ago.. Honestly mate those spring are fine..

[Haselsh1]

OK, this afternoon I took all of the springs to bits, cleaned them and reassembled them. Slightly better but still not right.

[hifi_dave]

Say what you will about the Linn LP12 turntable but I have set up two today and both bounce beautifully. I'm confident they will stay this way for many years without further tinkering. Once you have the knack, it's all very positive and straightforward. The Thorens should be similar.

[CornishPasty]

Anyone remember the Zeta tonearm? That was one heavy arm. A friend had one on his LP12 and the back corner always bottomed out because of the weight of that arm. The cure was simple. I gave the back spring a bit of a tug and put half an inch on it. Put it all back together and it set up a treat.

[Haselsh1]

OK, have now fitted the new springs from the states and everything is now much better. It is all a lot more floaty and bouncy and more as it should be. The motor spring is still cranked up more than I would like but it is OK.

[walpurgis]

That sounds promising Shaun.

[Virtual-Symmetry]

Sounds like he aint that happy cos it will not have cured the issue ;) Wish i was closer to you shaun.

[Haselsh1]

Yeah, it's not absolutely spot on but it is near enough and if I had a phono stage at the moment I would be happy playing vinyl with it. I still have a wish to upgrade later in the year to a Hyperspace with their own arm and a decent phono stage. Time will tell I guess.

[Haselsh1]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/TD160%20for%20AOS_zpsjae0b0ah.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/TD160%20for%20AOS_zpsjae0b0ah.jpg.html)


OK, a few weeks further on and this turntable is still not as it should be. In order to get the platter to clear the motor azimuth stub the springs still have to be cranked up to the max so that there is no adjustment left and even with those little plastic spacer things in place it only just clears the stub. The suspension does not float as it can't, there is no adjustment left for it to float, so I am thinking I may turn this into a project and make the whole deck non suspended. I shall use rubber grommets between the sub chassis and the plinth to offer a bit of isolation and I shall replace the springs with lengths of ally tubing. The whole deck will be rigid in place of only semi rigid and maybe when I get that nice new black Jelco things will look nice and OK.

[Parkie37]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/TD160%20for%20AOS_zpsjae0b0ah.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/TD160%20for%20AOS_zpsjae0b0ah.jpg.html)


OK, a few weeks further on and this turntable is still not as it should be. In order to get the platter to clear the motor azimuth stub the springs still have to be cranked up to the max so that there is no adjustment left and even with those little plastic spacer things in place it only just clears the stub. The suspension does not float as it can't, there is no adjustment left for it to float, so I am thinking I may turn this into a project and make the whole deck non suspended. I shall use rubber grommets between the sub chassis and the plinth to offer a bit of isolation and I shall replace the springs with lengths of ally tubing. The whole deck will be rigid in place of only semi rigid and maybe when I get that nice new black Jelco things will look nice and OK.

Hi Shaun
Is there a Thorens setup expert anywhere near you? I can't help but think that a second set of eyes might see something that is a little amiss and perhaps getting him/her to take it apart and start over might save you your sanity! I have gone through and fixed my friends computers or HiFi gear for years and inevitably, if I get stuck, there is something small that I missed that the second set of eyes caught right away. (The amount of times that I went through all of the settings in the network setup of my parents computer wifi system after some parts were replaced, was ridiculous! Then my friend Frank, a network specialist, found one small setting that I had missed.... :doh: )

Just a thought. I like to fix things myself but every now and then it can be money well spent if it's driving you crazy :)

[Haselsh1]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/August%202016%20TD160%20V3%20AOS_zpsjds5dofi.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/August%202016%20TD160%20V3%20AOS_zpsjds5dofi.jpg.h tml)

OK, so for a week or more I have now converted the Thorens from a suspended subchassis turntable into a non suspended subchassis turntable. Here are a couple of images of the deck so far. I still have to lower the platter and therefore the subchassis by the inclusion of sorbothane washers which will also allow a degree of isolation. Looking good so far.


http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/August%202016%20TD160%20V2%20AOS_zpsqetlw5t3.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/August%202016%20TD160%20V2%20AOS_zpsqetlw5t3.jpg.h tml)

[Haselsh1]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/TD160%20Star%20for%20AOS_zpszg2dppnp.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/TD160%20Star%20for%20AOS_zpszg2dppnp.jpg.html)


Another quick shot of the latest development of my TD160 again using a bit of artistic licence.
I really do love this deck to bits and truthfully did not want it to go somewhere else so with that in mind, I decided to make the most of it, not give in and modify it. The platter rides a bit too high at the moment but it rotates which is a good start and of course I can now use my years old ally puck which I couldn't whilst it was sprung.
Yes, I still need a phono stage and yes, I still have some sorbothane work to do but it will all comes together.
Really cannot wait...!

[struth]

I considered trying mine that way Shaun. Dont know why i didnt. I guess mine sounded good so used my old adage of leave well alone. If i had your trouble I would have. Hope you enjoy the results

[Haselsh1]

Thank you Grant, really appreciate your support.

[Parkie37]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/TD160%20Star%20for%20AOS_zpszg2dppnp.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/TD160%20Star%20for%20AOS_zpszg2dppnp.jpg.html)


Another quick shot of the latest development of my TD160 again using a bit of artistic licence.
I really do love this deck to bits and truthfully did not want it to go somewhere else so with that in mind, I decided to make the most of it, not give in and modify it. The platter rides a bit too high at the moment but it rotates which is a good start and of course I can now use my years old ally puck which I couldn't whilst it was sprung.
Yes, I still need a phono stage and yes, I still have some sorbothane work to do but it will all comes together.
Really cannot wait...!

Ok, we are a little late for my suggestion :lol:

It looks really good though. The most important thing is that if you like the sound, that is what counts. It really looks nice in the photos.

[Haselsh1]

Ok, we are a little late for my suggestion :lol:

It looks really good though. The most important thing is that if you like the sound, that is what counts. It really looks nice in the photos.

It could be worse, it could be a DJ deck

:ner:

[Haselsh1]

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab240/Haselsh1/Benz%20Micro%20Desktop%20aos_zpsitn7ekba.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/Haselsh1/media/Benz%20Micro%20Desktop%20aos_zpsitn7ekba.jpg.html)


Another shot of my Thorens TD160 B MkII in its latest guise. The cartridge is a Benz Micro Silver but it is the high output version. I am still waiting to purchase a phono stage at the right price so that I can try it out after its latest mods but I can't see why it shouldn't work just fine. Yesterday I changed the bearing oil for a much thinner, less coloured variety and the platter actually appears to spin more freely but of course this could be pure imagination. So, I am currently looking forward to trying it out with the Dire Straits 'white' album but I am in no hurry to be honest. Things will happen as things happen.

[skimminstones]

youve been doing this for over 2 months and you still havent got a phono stage to actually listen to the thing? Just buy one and enjoy it, get another one when it becomes available.