View Full Version : New to Hi-Fi? Just Starting Out? Some Tips!
walpurgis
30-05-2016, 10:00
Are you just entering the mysterious world of Hi-Fi?
First rule. Don't listen to the opinions of your friends and family. They are unlikely to have any idea what they are talking about.
Being a member of a good Hi-Fi forum can be an educating experience, but if you are starting from scratch, most of what is discussed will seem like another language to begin with, so tell people what you have in mind and ask questions. Help is there!
Anyway. If you have decided which room your intended Hi-Fi is to be used in that's a start. Decide how much room for equipment you have and what the system's main functions are going to be. Is it for personal listening to music at normal levels or will it need to be a more potent 'party' or 'rock' system? The options are not necessarily exclusive mind you. You can have loud and powerful and very good sounding in one package.
The budget! Have a price in mind. Do you want new equipment or is decent second hand gear OK? A good system can be put together from the used equipment market at considerably lower cost than new.
Decide what types of material source you need. Records? CDs? Radio? Computer sourced? Etc.
Have a thought about placing all the likely bits of equipment you may end up with. Will you need a rack? Do you have suitable shelves or tables, etc? Smaller speakers need to be up off the floor, so stands may be an idea.
Wiring it all up. Your choices of interconnecting cables and speaker cables need a bit of thought. No need to overspend, but poor cables suck the life from the sound, so get something half decent.
Don't be blinded by specs. Power output claims and the like, can lead you up the garden path.
Don't let looks fool you. Impressive or flash looking gear is often pretty dire.
If in doubt about any aspect, seek advice (and don't necessarily take a retailer's word about anything).
walpurgis
30-05-2016, 10:01
We can all help beginners, so please add input to this thread if you have useful ideas. :)
Good idea for a thread, Geoff. We'll sticky it once it gains some 'legs'... :)
Marco.
Find a system you like. Then stop buying mags and reading forums and just listen to music instead. You will save yourself ££££s and a lot of grief.
One of the most important things to me is to set yourself a budget and try to stick to a close approximation of it. Get used to what youve got for some time and only then consider what you can do to improve it, bit by bit.
Buying second hand, can help as if you pay around going price, then if you look after it, then you will get most of your initial expenditure back when upgrading.
It all helps to not get sickened by the experience, which can be both soul destroying and expensive if not thought out
hard1175
30-05-2016, 11:29
The best peice of equipment you can use to find a system you will like to live with is your ears.
Don't rely on hifi magazines everybody's equipment advertised in them is the best thing since sliced bread
Join a forum talk to people who are not trying to sell you something and are not biased but will give you true honest advice and may even recommend you a good hifi dealer in your area.
Firebottle
30-05-2016, 13:34
TIP: Less knobs and switches generally equates to better quality performance, through better design.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 13:56
Don't take any notice of 90% of what you read on forums as it's simply WRONG! ;):eek:
Don't take any notice of 90% of what you read on forums as it's simply WRONG! ;):eek:
Especially if it panders, parrot-fashion, to the contents of 'Johnny's book of physics' from 1958! :ner:;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 14:38
Especially if it panders, parrot-fashion, to the contents of 'Johnny's book of physics' from 1958! :ner:;)
Marco.
It's the stuff that doesn't which is wrong! :ner:
Guess im gonna have a lot of editing on this thread:doh: great way to ruin a nice thread guys.... Think i will go back to the waiting room at the gps... Twas at least good muzac playing
Find a system you like. Then stop buying mags and reading forums and just listen to music instead. You will save yourself ££££s and a lot of grief.
Not so easy unless you are undiscriminating or drop lucky.
I've been in dealers when they have demonstrated a few systems and none of them really cut it for me. Not cheap stuff, either. It is easy to pay a lot for something very mediocre in a universal sense. The best approach I think is to have an idea where you are going and what sort of sound you want. Ideally that means hearing a lot of different but well-sorted systems. Once you know what is possible and where you want to go, then you can start getting somewhere.
Wish I'd known that years ago would have saved me a lot of bother.
Off the top of my head:
#1
Only way to assess kit is to hear it for yourself with your own ears, as everyones hearing and room is different...
and you know what they say about opinions...when buying, hear as much stuff as you can.
Have any mates into hifi? Get together and hear each others stuff...its a great way to compare your setup and maybe decide you want to go a different direction.
#2
Sometimes when you spend more money you get a good improvement, but not always.
Theres a "sweet spot" where you get the most for your money and need to spend a lot more to noticably make it better.
When buying kit do your research, magazine reviews aren't always what they seem, some are paid for adverts!
Read forum posts from hifi forum sites like Artofsound, The Audio Standard, etc.
Some good helpful experienced guys on these forums and are happy to help.
There's ALWAYS someone else asking the same or similar questions as what you have.
NOTE: Different sites tend to have different "flavours" and recommend different specific things.
See which one works best for you.
#3
Its easy to get caught up in the buying of the hifi and forgetting its just a way of enjoying the music you love better.
Doesnt matter what equipment you end up getting, if it makes you enjoy your music better...its Hifi.
#4
Some strong opinions out there of "whats best" and a lot of folk think of themselves as "hifi guru's".
No such a thing!
Refer you back to point #1: Trust your own ears.
#5
Its a cool hobby so enjoy it. :)
Good sounding hifi makes the music better and thats always a good thing.
walpurgis
31-05-2016, 09:10
Good observations there.
New to HiFI? Run, run away while you still can. :D
...on a more serious note, audio is an extremely subjective area, the HiFi magazine awards are based around advertising dollar / marketing & PR, and the forums will offer you an overwhelming amount of opinion often without even heard the gear you're asking / reading about. In other words, you need to listen before the forums really become useful.
In no particular order....
Do some proper research on the Internet, not just on forums, but on various other sites, where you can learn about different kit and different approaches to system building, trust your instincts and don't be afraid to take a punt on something, say on ebay or importing equipment from abroad, if you think it ticks the right boxes.
Avoid the temptation of being lazy, and simply 'following the herd'. Don't be afraid to do something different from the norm, or go a different route from others, perhaps off the beaten track. Thinking outside the box and trusting your instincts often pays very worthwhile dividends!
Don't be afraid of using old technology.
Often the BEST of it, whether with CD players, DACs, turntables, valve amplifiers or speakers, is a) far better engineered and liable to be more reliable over a longer period of time than most of what is produced today, and b) can sound better than modern equipment, simply because it was designed to be as good as it possibly could be in its time, rather than simply commercially created/heavily mass-produced to be nothing more than mediocre, as happens with most affordable equipment these days.
Often with some simple upgrades to basic components, carried out by your local friendly audio engineer, the best vintage equipment can become virtually unbeatable by anything that's produced now.
Understand that marketing people, manufacturers, magazines and dealers, who all have to make a living, have a vested interest in trying to convince you that the 'latest and greatest whatever' is automatically the best, and that old stuff is simply 'obsolete' and sonically uncompetitive. This is largely complete nonsense, and designed simply to keep those respective organisations in business.
Yes, some modern equipment is better than some old stuff, but it's by no means automatic, so lose the natural temptation to believe that latest/newest is always best!
Unless you've got money to burn, build your system around the principle of generating maximum 'SPPV', which is Sound Per Pound Value. In that respect, avoid being attracted to buying leading, well-known brand names, seeing them as a superficially 'safe bet'. Often the main reason why they're such is because the companies concerned spend lots of money marketing their products, in order to be perceived by potential buyers in that way.
Also, products from 'big names' tend to, but not always, offer poorer SPPV, simply because the companies concerned recognise that there is a value attached to ownership of their 'badge', and so a significant percentage of the price tag charged is made up of that 'badge desirability', which has nothing to with the performance of the product. Furthermore, 'big name' companies will usually have much higher overheads than smaller independent manufacturers, so that will also be reflected in the price you pay, again eating into the SPPV achieved.
In that respect, give products from smaller independent companies and manufacturers a chance. You'll usually find that they've been designed with greater love by people with a massive passion for what they do, often who have a superb understanding of how to get their products to deliver the 'biggest bang for your buck', and so in that respect create Rolls Royce performance for Ford outlay!
Unless you build your own equipment or are naturally technically minded avoid choosing equipment on measurements or specs. Both are important, but are only of any REAL use to those who properly understand their meaning or context. If not, then to the uninitiated, they can be extremely misleading and often lead to bad decision making, in terms of choosing the equipment for use in your system.
Therefore, avoid the 'Top Trumps' method of system-building, and fooled into believing that just because a piece of kit has better spec than something else, that in the REAL WORLD, i.e. what you HEAR when listening to the music it makes, it's automatically going to be better than something else with 'lesser spec'.
This is lazy (largely deluded) thinking, and ultimately if all your decisions are based on that type of criteria, you could end up with a disappointing sounding system, as there's a LOT more to getting a good system to work in a satisfactory way, than simply how well it measures!
Try and get out and hear as much live music as possible, preferably of the acoustic variety, as only by having a fundamental and intrinsic understanding of how real voices and instruments sound, can you ever be in a position to effectively judge how good the noise is that comes out of your speakers!! ;)
Last but not least, and in fact I'd say most important of all, is ultimately have the confidence and gumption to trust your OWN ears, even if 'established wisdom' appears to contradict them, and don't allow yourself to be manipulated by others, especially as their 'opinions' may often contain an agenda that has nothing whatsoever to do with helping you or recommending what's best.
Also, don't feel that your choices have to be vindicated or 'approved' by others, in order to consider them as having been the right ones for YOU. If you've done your research properly, auditioned different equipment, or taken a punt on something obscure, which perhaps few people have tried or know about, and it sounds great and ticks all the right boxes for YOU, then bugger what anyone else thinks!!
Try not to be smitten by the 'grass is always greener syndrome', and learn to live with the kit you buy for a sufficient period of time, in order to get to know it properly and its strengths and weaknesses, rather than impatiently giving up on it, should it initially disappoint. Only by correctly identifying the faults can you successfully fix them and make GENUINE improvements!
Unless you're Jerry, avoid box-swapping for box-swapping's sake. Above all, be single-minded, not easily swayed, and have the strength of character to stand by your final decisions, and live with them!
That's all for now, although I may continue to add to this list, as a matter of course, when I remember stuff I should've included, so scroll back here if you want to see anything new :cool:
Marco.
walpurgis
31-05-2016, 10:45
Somebody starting out may say 'I want a turntable, amp and speakers. Vintage would be nice, but I've only got £250 to spare at the moment'.
There are many options of course. What would I say? Probably, look for a tidy Pioneer PL-12D deck, fit a decent Shure or Stanton MM cart. Find a NAD 3020a amplifier and a pair of Mordaunt Short Pageant 2 or Celestion Ditton 15 speakers. Pick up decent used cables and away you go! All sorted for the right sort of money (stands and a rack will be extra sir :)).
Firebottle
31-05-2016, 11:20
Unless you build your own equipment or are naturally technically minded avoid choosing equipment on measurements or specs.
Spot on Marco. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding with non technically savy people that 'the bigger the power rating, the better it must be'.
As an example the max power rating of a speaker system has no bearing on its performance.
That's not strictly true. I mean modern loudspeakers even little ones tend to soak up about 100 watts but vintage speakers can be as low as 20 watts handling. Which means if you want high spl in a small room your are going to end up with a lot of distortion plus probably blow the speakers.
I've also lost track of the number of times I have listened to amplifiers clipping - this is because of people not paying attention to the spec and using a 30watt 'highly regarded' amp when they need a 100 watt amp to get the SPL they want in their room. The 30 watter may sound better within its performance envelope but if you are not going to use it within its abilities it is going to sound rotten.
So specs do matter to an extent, you don't need to be a boffin to understand them, and 'if it sounds good it is good' is really too facile to be practical advice to anyone.
walpurgis
31-05-2016, 11:45
vintage speakers can be as low as 20 watts handling. Which means if you want high spl in a small room your are going to end up with a lot of distortion plus probably blow the speakers.
Very true. Try putting even a mere 20 watts through a pair of vintage Lowthers. You'll melt them! Mind you, you'd not be able to stay in the room with them without ear damage! :D
I've also lost track of the number of times I have listened to amplifiers clipping - this is because of people not paying attention to the spec and using a 30watt 'highly regarded' amp when they need a 100 watt amp to get the SPL they want in their room. The 30 watter may sound better within its performance envelope but if you are not going to use it within its abilities it is going to sound rotten.
That's a very good point. Always choose an amplifier/speaker combo that, aside from sounding good within its performance envelope, has the ability to 'drive' your room properly, at the levels you listen at.
However, specs alone are not enough to judge that accurately, as some 30W amps, with larger PSUs and bigger reserves of current, will typically be able to drive more difficult speaker loads than other amps, with the same power output on paper, which in turn will allow them to fill the room easier with music.
Few specs usually quoted will tell you that, so you have to use yer lugs and try stuff! ;) Quite simply, there is no replacement for practical experience.
So specs do matter to an extent, you don't need to be a boffin to understand them, and 'if it sounds good it is good' is really too facile to be practical advice to anyone.
Indeed, but its not so much understanding their meaning in 'black and white', but more importantly the context correctly in which they apply. That's the harder bit!
Marco.
Ah well, difficult loads is another situation entirely. A lot of amps are crap at delivering current into low impedance loads (as presented by a lot of modern speakers) so manufacturers tend to avoid quoting any specs about it.
Problem is that it does make a huge difference to sound quality.
Again I learned all this the hard way since the magazines never mention this issue. They will review a speaker and say 'a 50 watt amp will be fine' - well, not necessarily.
Actually in general the magazines are piss-poor at this sort of advice - forums are much better as the law of averages says there will be at least a couple of posters who actually know their stuff.
...which brings me onto another tip:
When joining a forum, become a regular and get to know the members whose ears, tastes and opinions appear to align with yours. Then, arrange to go and hear their system and benchmark for what they consider as 'good'. That tends to sort the wheat out from the chaff. You need to assess whether they can walk the walk, as well as they talk the talk!
If it's also good to you, and you rate what they've done, then try replicating some of it and see if you can obtain the same results. That won't always be the case, as different rooms play a huge part in the end results you'll achieve, but it could certainly point you in the right direction.
Also, if a member who's system you've heard and liked, backs up what they've written and the knowledge that they claim on forums, then it can be advantageous to take their advice and listen to what they have to say in future :)
In that respect, there are a number of people here and elsewhere who's opinions on hi-fi I would take notice of rather more than others! ;)
Marco.
A lot of amps are also huge watts on paper, but have rubbish "instantaneous current delivery". This is why some low watts on paper amps can sound much better and sound more powerful with real music.
Very true. Try putting even a mere 20 watts through a pair of vintage Lowthers. You'll melt them! Mind you, you'd not be able to stay in the room with them without ear damage! :D
Mine are rated at a massive 8watts
Arkless Electronics
31-05-2016, 12:51
On the other hand many speakers of an "average" load and efficiency, when used at the lowish volumes many are limited to by domestic situation, will be driven fine by an amp with now't special in the current delivery area and with "only" 30WPC. Which doesn't make it easier for the newcomer....
A point that I would make for the newcomer is that speaker damage is most often in the form of blown tweeters caused by an amp being NOT POWERFUL ENOUGH. When an amp clips it generates considerable ultrasonic power in the form of distortion, Now although the speakers may be rated at 100W, the tweeter alone (which is taking all of this distorted ultrasonic power) is probably only rated at say 15W and so can be blown by a 30WPC amp ;)
Specs? Important, but only if you know which specs are important! I wouldn't be bothered by one amp having 0.01% distortion and another having 0.001% but I would be if one turntable had wow and flutter of 0.03% but the other had 0.5%! :eek:
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 12:57
Avoid the temptation of being lazy, and simply 'following the herd'.
Nine time out of ten they will follow the heard of cheap File based systems because with this hob bee usually involves Money, Money is a big big problem for a lot, they aint got it. At least with a file based system every one owns the source [ laptop ] so they are pretty much good to go after buying some form of streamer & amp/speakers.
Buy a turntable on the specs? Some people here who will be running away in horror!
Specs are a good way to narrow down the choice a bit though. Plenty of turntables that don't go around at the correct speed, for example.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:01
I dont think a Turntable would be on the shopping list for starters tbh..Like i said it involves money to go down the Vinyl route, not just a matter of buying a Turntable issit.
Times have changed, turntable manufacturers can't knock them up fast enough to meet demand.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:07
Times have also changed when forking out for a good turntable never mind the cost of records is a no no for a lot.. This is how a lot think, why go thru the hell of Vinyl [It can be hell] when its so much easier to buy a CD or do the file thang..
Nine time out of ten they will follow the heard of cheap File based systems because with this hob bee usually involves Money, Money is a big big problem for a lot, they aint got it. At least with a file based system every one owns the source [ laptop ] so they are pretty much good to go after buying some form of streamer & amp/speakers.
...or go for more expensive file-based systems & close the gap between good sound (physical media vs. files).
Arkless Electronics
31-05-2016, 13:12
Vinyl is a fad at the moment with the yoof and whilst it will certainly entrap some in a lifetime of upgrades etc most don't seem bothered by sound quality... have you seen the modern equivalents of a Fidelity auto-changer, but much crappier, that many play them on?!
Specs are a good way to narrow down the choice a bit though. Plenty of turntables that don't go around at the correct speed, for example.
Indeed, however simple W&F specs may not tell the full story, as there is such a thing known as 'dynamic wow', due to stylus drag, which can affect a T/T's performance outside of simple W&F figures.
There are plenty of belt-drive T/Ts out there, for example, which quote superficially excellent W&F figures, yet when you hear them, especially reproducing decay on piano notes, quite clearly in the REAL WORLD don't *always* go round at the right speed...
Another reason why listening is every bit as important as measuring! ;)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:21
I dont think its a fad. I believe it gained popularity again in the 90's due to the Dance Music Scene, DJ's etc. Now DJ's use Files i don't think the popularity with kids is there as much..I do believe Vinyl is a bit of a Joke these days if you are buying new because wtf wants an LP taken from a digital Source!
Nine time out of ten they will follow the heard of cheap File based systems because with this hob bee usually involves Money, Money is a big big problem for a lot, they aint got it. At least with a file based system every one owns the source [ laptop ] so they are pretty much good to go after buying some form of streamer & amp/speakers.
Sure, but if you follow the right advice or know what you're doing, you can also buy decent second-hand gear, from the multitude of stuff that's out there, and build a bloody good system from that. However, it takes knowledge to do it right, and the only way to gain the necessary knowledge, is to try things and learn from your experiences, and often mistakes! :)
The problem is, some folks either lack the inclination for going down that route, or worse don't trust their ears or judgement enough to go any other way than having it all spelled out for them, so that they don't have to think for themselves! There breeds the mindless copycats :rolleyes:
Or the interminably lazy and unadventurous, reach for the spec book and play 'Top Trumps', with often very mixed and unpredictable results.... There's a reason why folks on forums, despite some having been into hi-fi for over 30 years, remain dissatisfied, as they still haven't got it right!! ;)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:39
I say this cos i have a mate that would never in a million years fart about trying things out, if it looks flashy modern & easy to use he'll live with it, It will sound a bit shit but that is something he will put up with as long as it ticks all his cant be arsed boxes..hell of a lot like him chucky..
Indeed, but that doesn't make them right, or that others shouldn't try and educate them out of having that type of mindset ;)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:45
The ones i worry about are people who claim they are audio guy but have kit all from the same manufacturer!
ofc you understand i would never condone the behaviour or my mate :nono:
That can work sometimes, if the manufacturer concerned knows what they're doing and genuinely builds individual components to make great sounding systems, but rarely is the case simply because no one manufacturer is best at making everything.
Marco.
Michael loves music
31-05-2016, 17:07
That can work sometimes, if the manufacturer concerned knows what they're doing and genuinely builds individual components to make great sounding systems, but rarely is the case simply because no one manufacturer is best at making everything.
Marco. Denon
I would have suggested Bang & Olufsen, but I don't know much about their speakers. Likewise, most of the major Japanese manufacturers, such as Sony, Yamaha, Nakamichi and Technics also supply complete systems, but in general their speakers are not 'voiced' for European ears and listening environments.
Rega certainly do it, as do, wait for it............. NVA! :eek:
Well, I've never had anything against the kit.
Marco.
Rega certainly do it, as do, wait for it............. NVA! :eek:
Well, I've never had anything against the kit.
Marco.
What sources do NVA make? Is there an NVA file-based server?
There was some canvassing of interest by NVA for a CD player a while ago. Anyone know the current status of this?
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 17:47
NVA used to make a Turntable it was called the 'Senior' Was a good deck..
What sources do NVA make? Is there an NVA file-based server?
There used to be a 'TFS' (Total Future Statement) music streamer, which I had use of for a while, and was good (albeit outperformed now by the RPi), but after RD's fall out with Jason (its designer), I'm not sure they'd have anyone else with the necessary computer skills to make something similar now.
No idea about the CD player. That's a somewhat dead market though, certainly for anything of quality that would cost decent money. The future of digital isn't CD players.
Marco.
Simon_Nottingham
31-05-2016, 22:02
My top tip: every now and again, buy some records (or media of your choice). That's what it's about. Listen to some music. Try something new.
Also, open a nice bottle of wine and get your head in the right zone for listening to music... That can make even the worst systems sound fantastic! :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
31-05-2016, 22:26
Also, open a nice bottle of wine and get your head in the right zone for listening to music... That can make even the worst systems sound fantastic! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Unless one gets a bit 'wobbly' and busts the stylus! :eek: :lol:
HackneyRF
31-05-2016, 22:27
Well said Simon. Actually I've found to my displeasure as I got older that booze does something odd to my hearing and perception of music. Makes it sound a little harsh and ragged unfortunately. Anyone else experience anything similar?
Sorry, quite the opposite here....
Marco.
I wouldn't know. I don't drink
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
HackneyRF
31-05-2016, 22:34
Maybe I should look to other stimulants to enhance my listening experience then. ;)
Luckily booze doesn't figure much nowadays.
While driving my stereo lol
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Maybe I should look to other stimulants to enhance my listening experience then. ;)
Luckily booze doesn't figure much nowadays.
A nice long toke on some ganja, man... :peace:
Marco.
Work out your budget, then triple it 'cos that's where it's going to end up anyway (IF you're lucky) [emoji12]
Roughly equating to the cost of her forty designer handbags and sixty pairs of shoes... ;)
Marco.
Here's some advice: get some decent pro audio cables to start with, and do not fanny about with them until the entire system is sounding how you like it.
Cables at best have extremely subtle differences, which can be important as a final little tweak, but they are a tiny part of the puzzle compared to speakers, source and amps.
The ones that make a big difference do this by changing the proper LCR characteristics to do things like roll off the top end to give a smoother / warmer sound.
So, cables, a final tuning step and not the foundation of HiFi choices.
Agree with that last one - all this cobblers you read about allowing 10 to 20% of your budget for cables. Your spending £20K you are really going to spend £2K on cable? You'd be out of your mind IMO.
Indeed, and yet reading the forums you might get the idea that cables are the most important part of the system!
The magazines yes, but I think forums are generally less forgiving of cable hype. having said that I don't read all of them.
The magazines yes, but I think forums are generally less forgiving of cable hype. having said that I don't read all of them.
I don't so much mean hype, more the amount of discussion they generate. I guess cables are easier to swap around/experiment with than amps, speakers etc.
There have been several cables put up for sale here costing a few hundred pounds. :eek: (or should that be :mental:?)
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