View Full Version : Is there a place for old tech in the 21st Century?
A man after my own heart: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-36388265
I get disillusioned with this throwaway society where once something is not fashionable anymore it's discarded. I don't see why serviceable films on VHS from the 80s have to be digitally re-mastered, so that people must replace their video collection with DVDs.
Then, we have to do the same thing again with Blu-ray, and replaced again with downloads. I don't like waste. What I don't see is why I need to keep changing my collections because of marketers and society - it's nonsensical.
Hear, hear!! :yesbruv: :thumbsup:
I can't stand pandering to the latest 'must have' fashionable *whatever*, like a brainless sheep. Rebel against today's superficial throwaway society, and use what YOU think is best for YOUR needs, not the marketers!
Marco.
Michael loves music
29-05-2016, 11:21
The big advantage with a vhs video tape was that you could take it to anyone's home with a vhs video recorder you cannot do that with a Humax recorder which I have had for years !
Firebottle
29-05-2016, 11:24
Yes!
Much prefer to modify or repair something that is generally built to a better spec than modern tat.
That usually goes for the mechanical as well as electrical build. My old Grundig R2R is a case in point.
BTH K10A
29-05-2016, 16:05
I like anything I own to be quality items produced with care and craftsmanship, both of which are becoming increasingly hard to find in sensibly priced new products. Consequently most of my hifi and indeed possessions, are vintage products, albeit top quality ones in their day. Most perform as well as if not better than their modern counterparts.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 16:16
No place for modern tech new fangled dross in my life. I would drop a computer in the nearest canal if i could.
Haselsh1
29-05-2016, 16:21
C'Mon you lot, it is digital...! It is so good you haven't even got ears good enough to catch how damn good it is...!! I mean, it just has to be the best thing ever bloody invented because it is digital...!!! Everything from the past is just so damn bad in comparison... you know it is but your rose tinted glasses just won't let you admit to it. It is living a lie to think that analogue is better, digital is the mustard along with, well, stem cells.
OK, let's be serious for a minute...
:eyebrows:
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 16:27
Digital lovers need to sit back & realise the programme they are listerning to does not sound right.
The quality of DVDs is much better than video tapes, and are a lot less bulkier to store.
BTH K10A
29-05-2016, 16:37
The digital railway is coming :eek:
To be fair though, the rolling block does offer headway improvements giving additional capacity to run a few extra trains where needed.
The quality of DVDs is much better than video tapes, and are a lot less bulkier to store.
Questionable on the finest examples of Betamax tapes and players (yes, remember those)! :eek:
Bulkier is only of concern to those who must worry about such things... Does 'bulkiness' make you want to rip all your vinyl to hard-drives and sell your LP collection? ;)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 16:51
The quality of DVDs is much better than video tapes, and are a lot less bulkier to store.
Nop. As with Audio cassette the pre recorded cassette tape/Video tape used was of poor quality.
Oh yes, the *only* valid comparison that can be made is when making your own recordings with the hardware concerned. Pre-recorded anything was pish.
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:09
'Home Taping is Killing Music' remember that one? more like the shite quality tape we sold you in your pre recorded cassettes Killed the music.
Questionable on the finest examples of Betamax tapes and players (yes, remember those)! :eek:
Bulkier is only of concern to those who must worry about such things... Does 'bulkiness' make you want to rip all your vinyl to hard-drives and sell your LP collection? ;)
Marco.
Of course, we had one and the quality was still inferior to DVDs.
I have over 200 DVDs, were they video tapes they would take up double the space - space I need for books and more CDs
Video tapes can suffer from stretching, snapping and getting tangled around the heads on ejecting.
No, I wouldn't want to rip my vinyl collection to a hard drive - I would loose the art work and sleeve notes, and the great smell of vintage vinyl! As well as the ritual of cleaning the record and stylus.
Technology - use the bits you like and ignore the rest (as much as you can).
I still rate the automatic domestic washing machine as my greatest bit of technology. I should really build a shrine to it. Having to go to the launderette for 12 years of your adult life will do that to you.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:17
No, I wouldn't want to rip my vinyl collection to a hard drive - I would loose the art work and sleeve notes, and the great smell of vintage vinyl! As well as the ritual of cleaning the record and stylus.
I see Digital Files & CDee as pure convenience nothing else. Smaller, Cheaper, Easier. The whole enjoyment of the hobby has gone imho. unwares to some its not just about listerning to the music.
Nop. As with Audio cassette the pre recorded cassette tape/Video tape used was of poor quality.
Irrelevant to me - I never made any video tapes, nor had any interest to do so.
Of course, we had one and the quality was still inferior to DVDs.
Fair enough. We'll have to agree to differ, then :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:19
Irrelevant to me - I never made any video tapes, nor had any interest to do so.
Im refering to the tape used in the pre recorded tape as being inferior to the higher quality you could buy with blanks. Gave tape play back machines/Media a bad name.
Only the same as someone saying records are rubbish & no where near as good as CD based on their experience with a bad quality Record player/Cartridge.
Arkless Electronics
29-05-2016, 17:29
Technology - use the bits you like and ignore the rest (as much as you can).
I still rate the automatic domestic washing machine as my greatest bit of technology. I should really build a shrine to it. Having to go to the launderette for 12 years of your adult life will do that to you.
I like that :)
Oh yes, the *only* valid comparison that can be made is when making your own recordings with the hardware concerned. Pre-recorded anything was pish.
Marco.
Very few cassette decks adhered strictly to the Philips Blue Book specification. Pre-recorded tapes played back on Nakamichi decks (one of the few manufacturers that did adhere to the Blue Book spec) could sound very good, but it must be remembered that pre-recorded tapes were copied at high speed for expediency.
Im refering to the tape used in the pre recorded tape as being inferior to the higher quality you could buy with blanks. Gave tape play back machines/Media a bad name.
Only the same as someone saying records are rubbish & no where near as good as CD based on their experience with a bad quality Record player/Cartridge.
Exactly. The quality of pre-recorded cassettes and blank ones has the same relevance as the quality of respective video tapes. You can't possibly judge how good a VCR, of any description, is by using pre-recorded tapes as the arbiter! :nono:
Marco.
Very few cassette decks adhered strictly to the Philips Blue Book specification. Pre-recorded tapes played back on Nakamichi decks (one of the few manufacturers that did adhere to the Blue Book spec) could sound very good, but it must be remembered that pre-recorded tapes were copied at high speed for expediency.
Yup, but not as good as using a Nakamichi deck to record music from your own system, using the highest quality blank tapes :)
Marco.
The whole enjoyment of the hobby has gone imho.
To you, maybe.
Talking old tech I'm using a Sony Trinitron 200ES monitor to look at this web page right now.
Only because my main telly is faulty but that is old tech (rear projection DSP) too. Good job I didn't skip the Sony. Couldn't bring myself to do it as it is absolutely mint condition. Got the box for it somewhere.
Arkless Electronics
29-05-2016, 17:38
No contest between video cassette and DVD. DVD is so much better you'd need to go the specsavers if the difference isn't obvious!!
Professional video formats became very good of course but that's like comparing a Studer 1/2" 15ips r2r with a ghetto blaster cassette deck....
Yes I know - I have about 200 tapes and a couple of Nakamichis gathering dust. I used to record stuff off the radio as well as making tapes for the car.
Ive just put a cassette player back into action in my system... Not cd quality but it has a je ne sais quoi about it too.
No contest between video cassette and DVD. DVD is so much better you'd need to go the specsavers if the difference isn't obvious!!
Using pre-recorded media as the arbiter, yes. Otherwise I disagree :ner:
And much will depend on the quality of the respective players. A superficially 'sharper' picture, but often with bleached-out colours, lacking in richness, doesn't necessarily equate to "better", much the same as a superficially brighter and more 'detailed' sound [CD versus tape or vinyl] doesn't either! ;)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:47
That is perfectly correct o might one
Arkless Electronics
29-05-2016, 17:48
Using pre-recorded media as the arbiter, yes. Otherwise I disagree :ner:
And much will depend on the qualities of the respective players. A superficially 'sharper' picture, but often with bleached-out colours, lacking in richness, doesn't necessarily equate to "better", much the same as a superficially brighter and more 'detailed' sound [CD versus tape or vinyl] doesn't either! ;)
Marco.
I hope your hearing is better than your eyesight.... don't run any video forums then?:ner:
Talking old tech I'm using a Sony Trinitron 200ES monitor to look at this web page right now.
Only because my main telly is faulty but that is old tech (rear projection DSP) too. Good job I didn't skip the Sony. Couldn't bring myself to do it as it is absolutely mint condition. Got the box for it somewhere.
I still use an 18" Mitsubishi CRT telly that is 35 years old. Admittedly modern, wide flat screens are sharper, but my ancient set can give them a run for colour fidelity and it doesn't have that annoying 'jerking' of moving out-of-focus objects.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:53
I hope your hearing is better than your eyesight....
Same could be said for championing DVD over Video
;)
I hope your hearing is better than your eyesight.... don't run any video forums then?:ner:
Hehehe.... We lived with our old Sony CRT TV for years, as I refused to buy modern flat-screen monstrosities, until it went pop, as I much prefer the quality/naturalness of the colours of the best CRTs.
Admittedly, however, the former (and plasmas) are catching up, in that respect, as technology improves :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 17:55
I thought Plasma was done with??
I only hooked it up in desperation. Was watching telly on it and it is very good, but a little small.
I still use an 18" Mitsubishi CRT telly that is 35 years old. Admittedly modern, wide flat screens are sharper, but my ancient set can give them a run for colour fidelity and it doesn't have that annoying 'jerking' of moving out-of-focus objects.
Exactly, so trust me, if you'd experimented with quality blank tapes, with VCRs, and had produced your own recordings with them, you'd definitely have observed something similar when comparing tape to DVDs ;)
Marco.
I thought Plasma was done with??
Could be, dude. I don't really keep up to date with that stuff.
The other thing that *really* rips my knitting with modern TVs is the horrible tinny sound from them, simply because there is virtually no cabinet to help produce bass! Consequently, nothing hurts my ears more than listening to the cacophony of a flat-screen TV played loudly - and with some low-level broadcasts, often you have to ! :eek:
You've got to connect the bloody things up to an AV system, or play them through your hi-fi, to cure that issue, and I can't be arsed with that pish :nono:
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-05-2016, 18:01
IMHO video V audio is a completely different ball game when it comes to analogue V digital methods of achieving it. Digital does seem to have delivered the promised "perfection" to video whereas it never really delivered for audio in the same way. Maybe our sight is easier fooled than our hearing?... dunno..
In terms of Tv's themselves it's taken years for flat screen TV's to better a good CRT set but, having seen the results now available from the latest models, it's now been achieved and all the strange effects with movement have been solved.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 18:01
Its not just electronics. Take for instance old 1950's/1960's sci-Fi books, Movie posters even down to stamps.. The style of drawing & vibrant colours has long gone for more easier to produce & more drab looking cover art. Why? costing & modern techniques.
Exactly, so trust me, if you'd experimented with quality blank tapes, with VCRs, and had done your own recordings with them, you'd definitely have observed something similar when comparing tape to DVDs ;)
Marco.
I've already said I wasn't in the least bit interested in making video tapes (nor for that matter in recording DVDs).
sound or video, the discs are way better quality tbh, unless your taking silly good machines etc, and even then certainly video cassettes were not in same league as dvd.
I've already said I wasn't in the least bit interested in making video tapes (nor for that matter in recording DVDs).
So you're not properly qualified then to judge the quality that video tapes can offer at their best ;)
Marco.
Its not just electronics. Take for instance old 1950's/1960's sci-Fi books, Movie posters even down to stamps.. The style of drawing & vibrant colours has long gone for more easier to produce & more drab looking cover art. Why? costing & modern techniques.
I completely agree, but much of that is because the masters were often hand-drawn and painted, so were more like mini works of art than anything else, so that's always going to be better than anything that's computerised and mass-produced from scratch :)
Here's another one, which Grant may be able to relate to as a movie buff and fan of old westerns...
Watch a typical colour movie, from the late 1950s or early 60s (I find westerns a good example) and compare the warmth and richness of the colours, especially skin tone, sky and grass, etc, captured on that old valve-based TV equipment, with what's produced now digitally, and if you can't tell the difference, and which is better, in terms of what's most lifelike (not false 'impressiveness') you're blind... ;)
Quite often I have to turn the colour down on the TV (any TV I've used, even CRTs), when watching an old western movie, in order to compensate for it being turned up to boost the rather pallid colour contrast of modern TV broadcasts in comparison. Has no-one else found this?
Next, we'll do film versus digital cameras! :lol:
Marco.
Firebottle
29-05-2016, 18:53
....... is the mustard along with, well, stem cells.
Stem cells are a modern wonder and saved the life of a good friend 10 years ago :thumbsup:
Spectral Morn
29-05-2016, 18:55
The quality of DVDs is much better than video tapes, and are a lot less bulkier to store.
That is true, but recording on tape is much easier. I still have video tapes and a recorder, the tapes are SVHS and the machine is a JVC HD, SVHS recorder. It has both HD recording and tape, one can transfer HD recording to tape too.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 19:49
Next, we'll do film versus digital cameras! :lol:
Marco.
No competition. Nothing like the old Technicolour movies imho..
Stratmangler
29-05-2016, 19:52
Questionable on the finest examples of Betamax tapes and players (yes, remember those)! :eek:
Bulkier is only of concern to those who must worry about such things... Does 'bulkiness' make you want to rip all your vinyl to hard-drives and sell your LP collection? ;)
Marco.
This is where things took a turn out into the land of bizarre.
Who actually has or had a Betamax recorder?
Hollywood was persuaded to get into bed with JVC, and Betamax died a death a a result, so the question is moot anyway.
The bit about "ripping" your vinyl will have me arguing the point until the day they nail the lid of the box down.
You cannot "rip" vinyl.
When you make a recording from your vinyl records it is exactly that, a recording, just as it was in the days when cassette recorders were commonplace.
You can make 10 recordings of 1 record and they will all differ from one another in some way, and that's without changing anything on the recorder.
Now rip a CD 10 times and the rips will all be identical.
Now let's get back to the land of reality.
DVD is hands down better than VHS video on visuals.
In stereo it's not arguably better than VHS, especially when it's using Nicam Stereo.
I always bought Panasonic VHS machines because they were one of the better sounding machines available.
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 19:54
I still have a Beta machine Its a Sanyo 9300.. Got loads of Blanks too for it..
Stratmangler
29-05-2016, 19:58
I still have a Beta machine Its a Sanyo 9300.. Got loads of Blanks too for it..
So you'll be recording loads off air then .....:eyebrows::ner:
Virtual-Symmetry
29-05-2016, 19:59
:) Not used it for years but its still mint, even has the frosted poly dust cover
I still have a Beta machine Its a Sanyo 9300.. Got loads of Blanks too for it..
That looks pretty much like what I remember the machine my parents having back in the day did! :)
Marco.
This is where things took a turn out into the land of bizarre.
Who actually has or had a Betamax recorder?
I remember my mum and dad having a machine pretty much identical to the one Andre mentioned. We had loads of tapes and used it a lot. Then VHS came in, and it was pish in comparison.
The bit about "ripping" your vinyl will have me arguing the point until the day they nail the lid of the box down.
You cannot "rip" vinyl.
When you make a recording from your vinyl records it is exactly that, a recording, just as it was in the days when cassette recorders were commonplace.
You can make 10 recordings of 1 record and they will all differ from one another in some way, and that's without changing anything on the recorder.
Now rip a CD 10 times and the rips will all be identical.
Fairy muff. It's a simply term, commonly used when transferring vinyl to a digital format.
Now let's get back to the land of reality.
DVD is hands down better than VHS video on visuals.
In your opinion, perhaps, not (always) in mine! :ner:
In stereo it's not arguably better than VHS, especially when it's using Nicam Stereo.
I always bought Panasonic VHS machines because they were one of the better sounding machines available.
Now there we do agree :)
Marco.
Watch a typical colour movie, from the late 1950s or early 60s (I find westerns a good example) and compare the warmth and richness of the colours, especially skin tone, sky and grass, etc, captured on that old valve-based TV equipment, with what's produced now digitally, and if you can't tell the difference, and which is better, in terms of what's most lifelike (not false 'impressiveness') you're blind... ;)
Quite often I have to turn the colour down on the TV (any TV I've used, even CRTs), when watching an old western movie, in order to compensate for it being turned up to boost the rather pallid colour contrast of modern TV broadcasts in comparison. Has no-one else found this?
Anyone? :popcorn:
Marco.
I completely agree, but much of that is because the masters were often hand-drawn and painted, so were more like mini works of art than anything else, so that's always going to be better than anything that's computerised and mass-produced from scratch :)
Here's another one, which Grant may be able to relate to as a movie buff and fan of old westerns...
Watch a typical colour movie, from the late 1950s or early 60s (I find westerns a good example) and compare the warmth and richness of the colours, especially skin tone, sky and grass, etc, captured on that old valve-based TV equipment, with what's produced now digitally, and if you can't tell the difference, and which is better, in terms of what's most lifelike (not false 'impressiveness') you're blind... ;)
Quite often I have to turn the colour down on the TV (any TV I've used, even CRTs), when watching an old western movie, in order to compensate for it being turned up to boost the rather pallid colour contrast of modern TV broadcasts in comparison. Has no-one else found this?
Next, we'll do film versus digital cameras! :lol:
Marco.
The thing with films is to do with the colour process on the film - there are hundreds of which Technicolor is just one. Cinema became more naturalistic in the late '60s and 70's so most later films don't have that look. You could film digitally and get it to look just like those old Westerns, if you wanted to.
Perhaps, mate, but I think there's more to it than that. Anyway, at least I think you're aware of what I'm referring to (and it's not the "Technicolor" effect). It's to do with the VIBRANCY and depth of the colours, which makes things look more REAL, not a form of false emphasis :)
Marco.
I'm not so sure that I am. Betamax is better than DVD? No chance of us agreeing on that. :)
Having said that I've really never been that bothered about picture quality. If I can see what's going on that's fine by me, same as some people are happy with listening to music through a dock thingy.
Anyone? :popcorn:
Marco.
eh, in a word, No. not personally. Modern tvs are streets ahead in every dept imo. but, its in the eye of the beholder. Beta tapes were, originally too short, and cost more. VHS got its nose in front through the rental market, and the rest is history. Beta was better built and had a better picture; it even lasted much longer, but, ultimately vhs was more suitable early on especially for films. think it was 1 hr v 2 hrs in beginning. We had the first ones through the workshop for evaluation and preferred beta. The philips 2000 system was better than both tbh.
So you're not properly qualified then to judge the quality that video tapes can offer at their best ;)
Marco.
Have you compared a VHS (or Betamax) recording with one made on recordable DVD of the same subject?
The video rental shop - what a great thing that was. No longer confined to 4 channels you could nip down the street and get a film. It was like the future had arrived.
I recall that there would be VHS and Beta racks but gradually the Beta racks got fewer and fewer and then they vanished. There's a great bit in a very early Simpsons where Snake steals a VCR and looks at it as he's running off: 'Oh no! Beta!'
eh, in a word, No. not personally.
Ok, here's a thing then. Next time when I'm due to come up, play me an old cowboy movie, on your AV set-up, and a modern film, and I'll point out to you what I mean - and I bet you'll get where I'm coming from when I explain it ;)
Beta tapes were, originally too short, and cost more. VHS got its nose in front through the rental market, and the rest is history. Beta was better built and had a better picture; it even lasted much longer, but, ultimately vhs was more suitable early on especially for films. think it was 1 hr v 2 hrs in beginning. We had the first ones through the workshop for evaluation and preferred beta. The philips 2000 system was better than both tbh.
Noted, although for picture and sound quality, shorter is better - just the same as it is/was with cassette tape. As for the rest, it was more about the film companies and marketing men promoting VHS, and wanting it to succeed at the expense of Betamax, than anything else - just as happened with DACs, in terms of multi-bit vs. bitstream.
I much prefer the sound of the former, done well, as to my ears, where it matters most, it is unquestionably superior! :)
Let's face it, there are many examples in audio of old technology outperforming its modern counterpart. The primary reason why the latter exists is to be cheaper and more convenient. Absolute quality/performance is very much a secondary consideration these days with most products.
Marco.
Our Betamax machine was made by Sony, but it was years ago and I don't remember the model.
PaulStewart
29-05-2016, 20:37
Nop. As with Audio cassette the pre recorded cassette tape/Video tape used was of poor quality.
Wrong I'm afraid, the tapes we supplied to duplicators was the same as that we put in the VHS cassettes we, (JVC UK Ltd), sold for home use. Certainly in the early days the duplication was real time on banks of recorders that were optimised for the tape in them.
Oh yes, the *only* valid comparison that can be made is when making your own recordings with the hardware concerned. Pre-recorded anything was pish.
Again see my answer above, later high speed dupes were not as good, but good audio duplicators like TAM Studios and Video operators like SVS used top class equipment and optimised it to the tape type when duplicating.
Marco.
Have you compared a VHS (or Betamax) recording with one made on recordable DVD of the same subject?
Nope, but we used to compare the recordings we made direct from TV, with those on tapes we bought new from shops. No prizes for guessing which were better - the exact same as it was when comparing pre-recorded music cassettes with blanks, containing recorded music from your own system :)
What I have done, is compare, say, my old Dr Who VHS tapes, on a quality VHS player, versus DVDs of the same programmes, and the colours on the tapes look richer and more realistic to me. The colours on the DVDs are 'harder' and more 'acid' in tone, although superficially sharper. It's a difficult thing to describe in words, but it's obvious to my eyes.
Marco.
Nope, but we used to compare the recordings we made direct from TV, with those on tapes we bought from shops. No prizes for guessing which were better - the exact same as it was when comparing pre-recorded cassettes with blanks, containing recorded music from your own system :)
Marco.
But that's comparing a home tape recording with a pre-recorded tape. I thought you were arguing for the superiority of video tape over DVD.
Old episodes of Doctor Who have some of the worst video quality ever. And they used to do that thing of shooting on video in the studio then swapping to film when they were on location, which made the video shot stuff look even worse.
But that's comparing a home tape recording with a pre-recorded tape. I thought you were arguing for the superiority of video tape over DVD.
Yes, and I gave you an example of that with my Dr Who tapes, on VHS. Scroll up and re-read my last post :)
Marco.
Old episodes of Doctor Who have some of the worst video quality ever. And they used to do that thing of shooting on video in the studio then swapping to film when they were on location, which made the video shot stuff look even worse.
Yes, and the DVDs would've been made from transfers of the old tapes, and so no better in that respect; in fact worse, as the DVDs subsequently 'hardened' the colours, as I've described.
Marco.
Ok, here's a thing then. Next time when I'm due to come up, play me an old western cowboy movie, on your AV set-up, and a modern film, and I'll point out to you what I mean - and I bet you'll get where I'm coming from when I explain it ;)
Noted, although for picture and sound quality, shorter is better - just the same as it is/was with cassette tape. As for the rest, it was more about the film companies and marketing men promoting VHS, and wanting it to succeed at the expense of Betamax, than anything else - just as happened with DACs, in terms of multi-bit vs. bitstream.
I much prefer the sound of the former, done well, as to my ears, where it matters most, it is unquestionably superior! :)
Let's face it, there are many examples in audio of old technology outperforming its modern counterpart. The primary reason why the latter exists is to be cheaper and more convenient. Absolute quality/performance is very much a secondary consideration these days with most products.
Marco.
Ah, you mean my tv lol... I dont bother with all the av stuff now. I mostly use dvd but have a few blu-ray too. No doubt there is much more info in there, although its not always for the better, but often is. Ive got the dvds of the leone trilogy etc and even though not on blu-ray they are absolutely superb quality. TBH I am not sure why you think an old hybrid colour tv is better than a led tv picture wise, although I will give you the sound bit, as they often had biggish speakers in a big box, so you got a less artificial sound.
I used to have hundreds of vids and was reluctant to move because of that, but really saw the writing on the wall and sold all my rare vids and replaced them with dvd's. Twas the right move
What I'm saying is that they are poorly made so not a good choice for a comparison.
From that era you want Thames TV, all shot on 35mm, The Sweeny, or Minder for example. That's quality for you unlike the cheapskate BBC who even wiped some of the tapes so they could use them again. God knows what they spent all the license money on, but it wasn't making TV shows.
Yes, and I gave you an example of that with my Dr Who tapes, on VHS. Scroll up and re-read my last post :)
Marco.
You're not comparing like with like. You are comparing a home recorded VHS tape with a pre-recorded DVD.
You need to either compare a home recorded VHS tape with a home recording on DVD of the same subject, or compare a pre-recorded VHS tape with a pre-recorded DVD (again of the same subject).
Barry, trust me, as much as that will alter things slightly, it won't change the existence of the effect I'm referring to, which is inherent in the digital process itself. It's a 'tape vs DVD'/'analogue vs. digital' thing, mate :)
Marco.
What I'm saying is that they are poorly made so not a good choice for a comparison.
From that era you want Thames TV, all shot on 35mm, The Sweeny, or Minder for example. That's quality for you unlike the cheapskate BBC who even wiped some of the tapes so they could use them again. God knows what they spent all the license money on, but it wasn't making TV shows.
Absolutely, I just used that example off the top of my head, as it's a comparison I've carried out only recently.
Marco.
No competition. Nothing like the old Technicolour movies imho..
Glad you can see it too, dude ;)
Marco.
Haselsh1
29-05-2016, 21:44
As a scientist but not a medical one, I think that stem cells are the answer to everything apart from maybe, where did we come from...? For that, I think we have to look to our Mom's and Dad's.
Trinitron...???? Is that digital...? No...! Then it has to be shite...!!
:eyebrows:
I've edited with video tape and digital files - no comparison, tape is qualitatively shite from the word go and just gets worse from then on.
...and it's bloody awful to work with - If you've experienced waiting for roll-back you'll know what I mean ;)
Barry, trust me, as much as that will alter things slightly, it won't change the existence of the effect I'm referring to, which is inherent in the digital process itself. It's a 'tape vs DVD'/'analogue vs. digital' thing, mate :)
Marco.
Sounds a bit like a Kodachrome vs. Ektachrome or Fujichrome film comparison (and they are all analogue technology). It's all a matter of taste - I prefer Kodachrome to Ektachrome and to my eyes the visual quality of DVD clearly exceeds that of videotape.
... to my eyes the visual quality of DVD clearly exceeds that of videotape.
Absolutely - there's no question really.
Always find it amusing when parallels are drawn between audio and video tape as if they where somehow comparable - they aren't - two very different technologies at work with the only thing in common being, well - tape.
History will point to video tape, and particularly it's use in ENG, as something of a disaster ... masses of archive events destined to wither and die (unless they've been saved by prudent digitisation). I have viewed films in an archive that were made in the '30s and are still pretty much pristine bar some edits where the glue had started to fail - the same archive had broadcast tapes from the '80s and they were almost unwatchable, the deterioration was so bad.
Sounds a bit like a Kodachrome vs. Ektachrome or Fujichrome film comparison (and they are all analogue technology). It's all a matter of taste - I prefer Kodachrome to Ektachrome and to my eyes the visual quality of DVD clearly exceeds that of videotape.
Sure, that's one way of looking at it, and you're entitled to your preference.
However, I think the difference between the quality of replay on Betamax/VHS video tape (at its best), and DVD, goes deeper than that, and touches on similar differences between vinyl (and say, R2R tape) and CD :)
Marco.
Absolutely - there's no question really.
Please don't state your personal preference or opinion as indisputable fact, because it isn't, no matter who much you insist to the contrary. And I don't give a flying jobby how many measurements or technical specs you throw at your argument, as it won't influence one iota what I *know* I can see or hear! ;)
Marco.
Sure, that's one way of looking at it, and you're entitled to your preference.
However, I think the difference between the quality of replay on Betamax/VHS video tape (at its best), and DVD, goes deeper than that, and touches on similar differences between vinyl (and say, R2R tape) and CD :)
Marco.
Sorry Marco - but can't buy that, Hi-Band U-matic or Betacam possibly - even SVHS, but unless you're talking about a really poor quality DVD recorder there's simply no comparison. VHS particularly was awful quality and incapable of rendering in anything like the dynamics or accuracy of digital video which approaches good quality 35mm colour film in every respect. Not opinion I'm afraid - simply fact.
Nope, it's not fact at all; it is merely your opinion. You only consider it fact because the 'facts' (measurements and specs) currently support your opinion. However, as we know, neither always tell the full story.
In that respect, your opinion is no more 'fact' than me saying that digital is superior to analogue. Some might also consider that as a 'fact', for similar reasons, but that doesn't make it so.
I've already explained about finding the colours with DVDs cold and 'acid-toned' in nature, compared with tapes I've watched of the same material, where the colours are richer and warmer - coincidently often the same (or similar) things said, sonically, about digital and analogue hi-fi equipment, hence the correlation. However, I'm unsure of the mechanism involved for causing that - but I trust my eyes to the same degree as I trust my ears!
In any case, we can argue until the cows come home, and neither of us will change our respective opinions on the matter, so it's best simply to 'agree to disagree' :)
Marco.
It's one of those 'forget the specs, analogue has some magic that digital doesn't' arguments.
I don't agree, personally but then I think CDs are pretty good.
And that's fine, but unlike Mike, even though I disagree, I'm not saying that I don't "buy" your opinion, or that mine is fact and yours isn't, or vice versa. It's that absolutist shit which does my tits in.
CDs are superb, as is digital in general, when reproduced by decent equipment. I enjoy both CD and vinyl in my system, as indeed I would R2R, which at its best, I consider as superior to any of them :)
Marco.
You only consider it fact because the 'facts' (measurements and specs) currently back up your opinion.
No measurements or specs required - a pair of functioning eyes will do the job perfectly ;)
Surprised you don't marry an RTR Marco seeing you love them that much ho ho. :)
Speaking generally if we could ditch all the tech, the bad and the good, and go back to, say, 1973 who would be up for it?
Don't forget cars would be crap, although they would look cooler, no mobile phones, no tinterweb, lots less medical science.
Still it's tempting. Sure we had a lot less but wasn't the quality of life better? Can't we have the tech and the old days back as well?
No measurements or specs required - a pair of functioning eyes will do the job perfectly ;)
So now you're insulting my eyesight? I think there's a good chance I've got better eyesight than you, and could probably prove it in a test. Anyway, give it up and leave it there, Mike, as I don't wish to fall out with you.
Marco.
Surprised you don't marry an RTR Marco seeing you love them that much ho ho. :)
Lol - I'm not a major fanboy, in the way of some here, but I've always respected their sonic abilities and recognised it (at its best) as being superior to CD/streaming or vinyl - and that feeling was only further enhanced after hearing Alan's Studer at NEBO.
Speaking generally if we could ditch all the tech, the bad and the good, and go back to, say, 1973 who would be up for it?
Don't forget cars would be crap, although they would look cooler, no mobile phones, no tinterweb, lots less medical science.
Still it's tempting. Sure we had a lot less but wasn't the quality of life better? Can't we have the tech and the old days back as well?
I'd cherry pick the tech I wanted to keep, take the advancements in medical science, and leave everything else as it was back then, and for me life would almost certainly be better! ;)
Marco.
Every time I see an RTR I think I should get one. Nothing to do with the SQ, but learning how it works and having to service and calibrate it sounds too much like hard work. But they are the ultimate possession of the serious enthusiast who's too cool for school.
I thought it was a Studer at NEBO or was there more than one?
Yes it was a Studer (just checked Steve's show report), my mistake :)
I think if you'd heard it through Steve (SPS)' OBs, instead of the Eddingdales, you'd have *got* how good it sounded, the same as me. Or even better, if you got it home in your system and compared it with your CDP or T/T, the difference would become immediately apparent, trust me! ;)
Marco.
I know what your saying but I don't think it is as simple as the format is the bestest.
You have to consider that Studer is a serious bit of kit with the requisite build standards. If the right things have been attended to it is going to sound good compared to another format (CD, LP, whatever) played on a machine where they have cut corners.
The spec of the format is still worse than CD and I don't buy the 'analogue is intrinsically superior because' argument. So that doesn't leave me anywhere else to go.
I know what your saying but I don't think it is as simple as the format is the bestest.
Never said it was.
You have to consider that Studer is a serious bit of kit with the requisite build standards. If the right things have been attended to it is going to sound good compared to another format (CD, LP, whatever) played on a machine where they have cut corners.
Indeed, but let's say in comparison with the best CDPs and T/Ts available. I can assure you that Alan's revamped Studer would give any of my sources a hard time, and you know how good those sound, as indeed it would those of many others with similar quality equipment.
The spec of the format is still worse than CD and I don't buy the 'analogue is intrinsically superior because' argument.
Top Trumps time again? :eyebrows: Specs often mean next to jack shit in the REAL world (for the listener enjoying music, not the builder), especially when they're held up in the wrong way as 'proof'.
As for the latter, I don't buy that either. Far too flaky and simplistic. It's often (but not always) superior to my ears for genuine reasons, most of which can't be proven conclusively, but which I most certainly consider as real.
Marco.
Martyn Miles
30-05-2016, 04:17
I use a Denon 790R prof. cassette deck and it's superb.
There is always a tape in it ready to catch a radio programme.
It has a button to auto tune the tape in use.
My prof. Minidisc recorder is excellent as well.
By the way, I got totally bored with the ongoing debate on TVs and video recorders.
This is The Art of Sound forum...
Landloper
30-05-2016, 06:05
I still have and use a Yamaha KX-580 SE cassette player and couple of portable mini disc players. I loved mini disc best of all the hi-fi i have used over the years and am sorry it is now considered an 'obsolete' technology.
BTH K10A
30-05-2016, 06:18
Who need new tech when you can have one of these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQMLLJRfwnw
A modern day creation made from old parts. The owner/creator even drives it to France on holidays with his wife
PaulStewart
30-05-2016, 06:24
OK can I give you the opinion of somebody who was part of the team that launched VHS onto the world market. VHS was rubbish, I mean complete cack, Beta was a little better,but not much. VHS was a better domestic format as it was mechanically more robust. At its best VHS was only capable of resolving around 500 lines so the definition was rubbish, the chrominance i.e. Colour signal was not bad, however it does not match the colour space used with modern TVs. The hardening of colours that Marco is talking about, is the result of poorly compensated and controlled transfers. If a company is prepared to take the time and spend the money, one can get a pretty good transfer to digital from old masters be they film or tape.
All fair points, Paul, and I'd certainly respect your opinion and experience on this matter. Your explanation for the hardening of colours, which I can quite clearly see, makes sense :)
Just surprised that others don't notice it, and appear to be seduced instead by the 'sharper' overall look of DVD, which as you've explained, often isn't correct. I'm as critically discerning of visual images on TVs as I am of the sound quality of hi-fi equipment.
Marco.
So now you're insulting my eyesight? I think there's a good chance I've got better eyesight than you, and could probably prove it in a test. Anyway, give it up and leave it there, Mike, as I don't wish to fall out with you.
Marco.
I thought it was a rather clever play on the word 'specs', ('no specs needed') but I could be wrong.
Surprised you don't marry an RTR Marco seeing you love them that much ho ho. :)
Speaking generally if we could ditch all the tech, the bad and the good, and go back to, say, 1973 who would be up for it?
Not me for a kick-off. The quality of life for a lot of people was utterly shite, and nothing at all to get romantic or dewy-eyed about. The funny thing is that back in 1973, people were being equally nostalgic for the 1930s, when life for many was even more shite. No doubt in the 1930s people were nostalgic about the 1890s, and so forth.
Which brings to mind something written even earlier:
'The distilleries and Lotteries are standing records that the Government cares nothing for the morals of the People, and that all they want is their money'.
Well, be that as may, 1973, from what I remember of it, as I was only 8 years old, was great! As indeed were the whole of the 70s... I was fortunate to have a very comfortable and happy childhood.
I loved my time in primary (at the prep school in Glasgow where I went), loved playing with all my friends at school and at home, the weather was great in the summer holidays, and my parents owned their own business, so money wasn't much of an issue, and we used to go for runs in the car all over Scotland and have some nice meals in fairly posh hotels and restaurants, or to Tuscany, to the family villa, and spend the duration of the school hols there, travelling en-route through France and Switzerland.
People, in general, we less selfish and materialistic, and were happier leading simpler lives, with less unnecessary and superfluous 'stuff'. Fab times!
I have many other similar happy memories of that era too, involving different things :cool:
Marco.
Well, be that as may, 1973, from what I remember of it, as I was only 8 years old, was great! As indeed were the whole of the 70s...
I loved my time in primary (at the prep school in Glasgow where I went), loved playing with all my friends at school and at home, the weather was great in the summer holidays, and my parents owned their own business, so money wasn't much of an issue, and we used to go for runs in the car all over Scotland and have some nice meals in fairly posh hotels and restaurants, or to Tuscany, to the family villa, and spend the duration of the school hols there, travelling en-route through France and Switzerland.
And there you have it. Life for an only child with relatively rich parents has probably been 'nice' whichever decade you grew up in.
Virtual-Symmetry
30-05-2016, 10:25
Joe
If you open your eyes for a bit you will find its today living that utter shite.. Just sayin
Joe
If you open your eyes for a bit you will find its today living that utter shite.. Just sayin
I can only speak as I find; it's fine for me.
And there you have it. Life for an only child with relatively rich parents has probably been 'nice' whichever decade you grew up in.
Possibly, but I was also taught that you had to work hard for what you had, as did my parents who started out with almost nothing, and I was never stupidly spoiled with material possessions the way kids are these days. When I was old enough to understand, nothing ever just landed on my plate.
The "richness" I received most was unlimited parental love and attention (especially as my mum was always at home to look after me), which sadly in these days of parents having to run around like headless chickens, working ridiculously long hours to pay silly-expensive mortgages, is a luxury not many kids get.
Life was undoubtedly simpler then, and in many ways better for it!
Marco.
Lodgesound
30-05-2016, 10:30
Ooooooooh......home territory.
Firstly does anyone reading this know what Betamax became?
I liked the era too.. Was a bit older but it was much more carefree for kids than now. You had less but appreciated what you had, even if it only cost a couple of quid.
Certainly more of the ordinary man/woman now has way too much stuff...i know i do, and at times it shames me. Thats why i often give stuff to the needy. I cant give money much as i dont have any, but plenty stuff i can give to folk in the hope it helps them a bit....
May be olden philosophy but it works for me
Landloper
30-05-2016, 10:37
1973 - I enjoyed a great quality of life in 1973.
It wasn't all plain sailing though ~
The first mobile phone was publicly demonstrated by Motorola
17050
Noel Coward died
17049
Virtual-Symmetry
30-05-2016, 10:38
I can only speak as I find; it's fine for me.
Im coming up to Life thru five decades. I know full well what i believe was crap & what isnt. These days is utter shyte imho, a society of Greedy back stabbing money driven people you must be insaine to trust. My definition of Technology these days is Cheap to make, wasteful throw away dross, with a silly smoke screen attached to everything which clearly fools everyone.
;)
Certainly more of the ordinary man/woman now has way too much stuff...i know i do, and at times it shames me. Thats why i often give stuff to the needy.
Spot on, as do we, mostly through the church. It's ridiculous the amount of 'stuff' and superfluous fripperies folk these days *must* have and think they're 'entitled' to, even though they can ill afford it. Clue: if need a loan or a credit card to buy it, you can't really afford it! ;)
Which neatly brings us to our current (and abhorrent) 'disposable society', outlined elsewhere by 'Dan the pilot', at the beginning of the thread....
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
30-05-2016, 10:42
Ooooooooh......home territory.
Firstly does anyone reading this know what Betamax became?
I know that the second Sanyo Beta machine in this country was the '9300' i have. Was the first one in the UK a Sony 'SL8000'?
Im coming up to Life thru five decades. I know full well what i believe was crap & what isnt. These days is utter shyte imho, a society of Greedy back stabbing money driven people you must be insaine to trust. My definition of Technology these days is Cheap to make, wasteful throw away dross, with a silly smoke screen attached to everything which clearly fools everyone.
;)
You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, no probs.
I think that what I'm reading on this thread is a combination of two things; firstly the old rosy-coloured specs that we tend to apply to the past that filter out all the bad stuff from 'back then', and secondly some snobbery about what people regard as their social inferiors having 'stuff' to which they're not entitled.
Current technology is fine for me. It's not throwaway as far as I'm concerned.
Ooooooooh......home territory.
Firstly does anyone reading this know what Betamax became?
Think it was used up until recently in broadcasting as betacam and all its derivatives
Lodgesound
30-05-2016, 11:07
I know that the second Sanyo Beta machine in this country was the '9300' i have. Was the first one in the UK a Sony 'SL8000'?
It evolved firstly into an analogue ENG format called Betacam which then became Betacam SP.
After that in 1993 it became Digital Betacam - a broadcast format using the same basic cassettes as home Betamax which went on to be the last and most successful videotape format in Human history. It became HDCAM SR around the turn of the century to incorporate hi definition BUT STILL using the same basic cassette shells and tape wrap. They cost around £50 000 and were used in broadcasting and professional mastering / duplicating facilities.
Sony lost the domestic format battle but won the war.
However the machines I refer to above were a FAR CRY from the toys (albeit incredible ones at the time) that were made available to home users.
Virtual-Symmetry
30-05-2016, 11:08
Joe:
As i obviously live in todays society i am entitled to filter out all the not so good things about past decades. But i can assure you that there is more bad these days then back then. The last thing you mentioned regarding snobbery, you can forget that one straight away.
whether you like it or not todays consumer goods are throw away because for one they are so cheap to make they are uneconomical to repair..
I can pass my local Dump to find 60 Washing machines piled up waiting to be taken away. That is a pile amassed in over a month. That is actually disgracefull, you never ever saw that many years ago because they were more reliable & secondly people used to fix them. These days they are so cheap to produce you end up with what i see on the dump site month in month out.
OK can I give you the opinion of somebody who was part of the team that launched VHS onto the world market. VHS was rubbish, I mean complete cack,
Thanks for the confirmation Paul - much appreciated. :)
Ooooooooh......home territory.
Firstly does anyone reading this know what Betamax became?
Betamax was the domestic version of professional Betacam. I think it was only finally phased out by Sony a couple of years back with the announcement that they would no longer make Betamax tapes.
EDIT: just checked - phased out March 2016
Virtual-Symmetry
30-05-2016, 11:29
Just surprised that others don't notice it, and appear to be seduced instead by the 'sharper' overall look of DVD
O i notice it. Your word 'Seduced' kinda sums up peoples reason for saying CD or DVD are better but at the end of the day they do not look nor sound natural to me.
I can only speak as I find; it's fine for me.
Seconded - the '70s was wall to wall trash as far as I'm concerned.
Couldn't agree more about today's throw away society. Not only are most electrical consumer goods designed and built down to a price (usually in China), so are no longer as reliable/robust as they used to be, they are designed so it is impossible to repair them (the casings are designed to snap together with barbed clips). :doh:
I remember when one could have all electrical domestic products repaired: irons, toasters, vacuum cleaners etc., even pots and pans. Nowadays when things fail, people just shrug their shoulders and buy a new one, because they are so cheap (and just as unreliable).
Occasionally I have to visit the 'Civic Amenities Recycling Centre' and am amazed at the amount of stuff people throw out: perfectly good computers, TVs, kitchen units. It's not that these things are necessarily broken, they are just not to the latest style and fashion. :steam:
Current technology is fine for me. It's not throwaway as far as I'm concerned.
Me too - more than happy with the quality and robustness of contemporary gear. But like any era, if you buy shoddy, you get shoddy.
Have to say though that pound for pound I get much better for a lot less now than then.
I think that what I'm reading on this thread is a combination of two things; firstly the old rosy-coloured specs that we tend to apply to the past that filter out all the bad stuff from 'back then', and secondly some snobbery about what people regard as their social inferiors having 'stuff' to which they're not entitled.
...how you've chosen to interpret it, based on your inherent mindset and biases, and not how it actually was intended to be read by the author ;)
I didn't experience any bad stuff "back then", so quite simply there is nothing for me to filter out. Please stop judging what others write based on your own contrary experiences, and applying it as the 'norm' for everyone else, when you don't know that was the case.
If your annual income is, say, £25k, and your outgoings, based on what you think you're 'entitled' to, far exceed that, and so have to be funded by debt, I'd argue that you're living way beyond your means, and as such aren't 'entitled' to the stuff that's putting you into such debt.
Living within your means is the answer, but sadly these days for some folk that's not enough. Ridiculously demanding, social-climbing wives and partners are often the problem. That's our modern 'aspirational society' for you!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
30-05-2016, 11:53
Couldn't agree more about today's throw away society. Not only are most electrical consumer goods designed and built down to a price (usually in China), so are no longer as reliable/robust as they used to be, they are designed so it is impossible to repair them (the casings are designed to snap together with barbed clips). :doh:
I remember when one could have all electrical domestic products repaired: irons, toasters, vacuum cleaners etc., even pots and pans. Nowadays when things fail, people just shrug their shoulders and buy a new one, because they are so cheap (and just as unreliable).
Occasionally I have to visit the 'Civic Amenities Recycling Centre' and am amazed at the amount of stuff people throw out: perfectly good computers, TVs, kitchen units. It's not that these things are necessarily broken, they are just not to the latest style and fashion. :steam:
+1
+ 2.
And they call that 'progress'. God help us! :doh:
Marco.
Couldn't agree more about today's throw away society. Not only are most electrical consumer goods designed and built down to a price (usually in China), so are no longer as reliable/robust as they used to be, they are designed so it is impossible to repair them (the casings are designed to snap together with barbed clips). :doh:
I remember when one could have all electrical domestic products repaired: irons, toasters, vacuum cleaners etc., even pots and pans. Nowadays when things fail, people just shrug their shoulders and buy a new one, because they are so cheap (and just as unreliable).
'In September, 1937
I bought my wife a new electric iron for eight and sixpence
She's still using it everyday and it's never needed repair'.
As Viv Stanshall put it.
...how you've chosen to interpret it, based on your inherent mindset and biases, and not how it actually was intended to be read by the author ;)
I didn't experience any bad stuff "back then", so quite simply there is nothing for me to filter out. Please stop judging what others write based on your own contrary experiences, and applying it as the 'norm' for everyone else, when you don't know that was the case.
I have made it clear that this is how I see things having been in the 1970s, based on my own experiences. I well remember my parents saying in the 1970s how much better life was in the 1930s when people were poorer but less materialistic, and what I'm reading on here is just a bunch of oldish blokes getting into a similar nostalgic mode.
Well, I guess some of it is nostalgia, and what's wrong with that? You seem to have a problem with it. You always seem to be on people's case, who perhaps feel that way, whenever this subject comes up.
For some folk, however, rose-tinted nostalgia aside, many aspects of today's society and life in general *are* distinctly worse than they were in the 60s and 70s, so leave them alone to feel that way, instead of continually criticising them for it, and worse, making presumptions about them which simply aren't true.
In that respect, I don't take kindly to remarks such as this:
and secondly some snobbery about what people regard as their social inferiors having 'stuff' to which they're not entitled.
...implying that I'm a snob, or see others here as my "social inferiors", when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply a pragmatist and have old-fashioned values, believing that folk should cut their coat according to their cloth.
That certainly doesn't make me a snob - and let's face it, the world would be in a damn sight better state if people today took more heed of that old saying!
Marco.
'In September, 1937
I bought my wife a new electric iron for eight and sixpence
She's still using it everyday and it's never needed repair'.
As Viv Stanshall put it.
I bought an iron in 1975 for £2.50 (I think). It was made in the DDR (former East Germany) and apart from replacing the cable, whose cloth covering had frayed, still works perfectly and is in regular use.
Play nice boys...keep it friendly. :)
Just a difference of opinion, nothing personal Im sure.
There's no problem, Gaz. Robustly (but politely) expressed opinions are always welcome, from anyone. No-one here has to agree with me, but at the same time I won't tolerate being accused of something I'm not :)
Marco.
StanleyB
30-05-2016, 13:48
I have made it clear that this is how I see things having been in the 1970s, based on my own experiences. I well remember my parents saying in the 1970s how much better life was in the 1930s when people were poorer but less materialistic, and what I'm reading on here is just a bunch of oldish blokes getting into a similar nostalgic mode.
I can't say what it was like before WWII, but I can certainly agree that things were better in the seventies than they currently are. This has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. Once big Pharma and the rest of them moved in to squeeze us for every penny we got, the writing was on the wall. From a vibrant manufacturing base, to free education and affordable rent and mortgages: They are now just memories. And let's not forget speed cameras, red lines, and the corner shops. Those who were born after that period have no idea how good life really was, only occasionally disturbed by an IRA bomb.
Affordable rent and mortgages is a very good point, Stan. It's something I've often read Joe bemoaning the existence of today, especially the inability for young people (perhaps his own kids) to get on the property ladder - yet of course, everything in life these days is just hunky dory! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 13:53
To move away from Marco's (IMO) ludicrous ideas that VHS is better than DVD...... I'm a big fan of old technology, call me a Luddite but in many ways I consider it current technology and today's stuff as a different class of equipment that is disposable and just about came from outer space!
Analogue hi fi is generally built using traditional techniques which have changed little for 30 years, it's a mature technology. Some mainstream companies have gone over to SMD but small(er) companies making stuff by hand do it the same as always. Newer and better components come along but excellent components from only 15 years ago, that still haven't been surpassed, are made obsolete at a faster rate....
My test gear is all very old... It works as well as modern stuff but is easier and more intuitive to use, more importantly I can repair it no problem if it goes wrong! It was good enough for defence contractors and research labs in it's day and the main "improvements" over time have been in miniaturisation, storing or printing out results etc. Meanwhile due to pre programmed ROM, ASICs (chips made for just that model basically) modern stuff has become virtually unrepairable just a few years after going out of production.
Another point, very relevant to the likes of myself if not the "lay public", is that the latest technology, including digital processing of virtually everything and super tiny BGA (Ball Grid Array) IC's, means that for one person making something, or even a small company, it's simply not possible to build something using the latest techniques.... an example... I'm messing around at the moment with an amateur radio 144MHz receiver I designed maybe 12 years ago, making it an improved version and "debugging" if you like. Now the technology and methods I'm using are similar to that used in the '70s and '80s because the latest technology would only really be applicable if you were making 100,000+ of them and had huge manufacturing facilities and budget! The latest modern tech could make it 10 times smaller and 10 times cheaper.... which is what the public often want... but there would be no chance of repairing or modifying it!
To move away from Marco's (IMO) ludicrous ideas that VHS is better than DVD......
Lol! Not in ALL instances, but I stand firmly by my comments about acid-toned colours, lacking in richness, in relation to DVD replay, when compared with VHS tape at its best. This was partly explained by Paul, who knows plenty about these things :)
Marco.
PaulStewart
30-05-2016, 14:02
.implying that I'm a snob, or see others here as my "social inferiors",
Marco.
Never worry about being called a snob. My ex would regularly scream "You and your mother are both snobs" true she brought me up to appreciate the better things in life, but snobs, I thought not. Then I went with Viv to cover a conference in Berlin that included a presentation by a Herr Doctor from the German Wine Institute. I hate German wine having participated in too much Blue Nun in the early seventies and most of what we were given bore out my view. Then came a vintage Reisling, 45 euros a bottle though I did not know this when tasting it. It was the only Reisling I have ever liked and I realised the Ex was right, I am a snob and proud of it :)
StanleyB
30-05-2016, 14:16
I hate German wine having participated in too much Blue Nun in the early seventies and most of what we were given bore out my view.
Blue Nun was unknown in Germany, and even then it was only £1.50 in the shop. What did you expect for that price? The actress who starred in the British advert even ended up committing suicide.
StanleyB
30-05-2016, 14:22
Analogue hi fi is generally built using traditional techniques which have changed little for 30 years, it's a mature technology. Some mainstream companies have gone over to SMD but small(er) companies making stuff by hand do it the same as always. Newer and better components come along but excellent components from only 15 years ago, that still haven't been surpassed, are made obsolete at a faster rate....
My test gear is all very old... It works as well as modern stuff but is easier and more intuitive to use, more importantly I can repair it no problem if it goes wrong! It was good enough for defence contractors and research labs in it's day and the main "improvements" over time have been in miniaturisation, storing or printing out results etc. Meanwhile due to pre programmed ROM, ASICs (chips made for just that model basically) modern stuff has become virtually unrepairable just a few years after going out of production.
I started using SMD before many others did in the low cost market end. And I still do so today. It is not about quantity.
As for the ROM etc.: I write my own codes, which means that I can revisit it over and over again to see if I can improve on the original or previous one.
But that sort of broad knowledge is rare in the audio field these days.
Simon_LDT
30-05-2016, 14:25
Not sure why there is a VHS vs DVD debate in here because there currently is no way to get ''lossless'' video onto any kind of home media, which in turn then makes it pointless to compare with hi-fi audio.
Not only that but Blu-ray is the best format currently and is a pretty big jump up from DVD. Lossless audio being a big part of that.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 14:36
I started using SMD before many others did in the low cost market end. And I still do so today. It is not about quantity.
As for the ROM etc.: I write my own codes, which means that I can revisit it over and over again to see if I can improve on the original or previous one.
But that sort of broad knowledge is rare in the audio field these days.
It's completely impractical to use SMD for hand made electronics. If you do you're a glutton for punishment... with great eyesight and a very steady hand! Many of the best sounding components are also not available in SMD and so many manufacturers use much worse types that are available in SMD...
As to ROM's well you proved my point! "I write my own codes, which means that I can revisit it over and over again" yep your own code which is not generic, can't be replicated and a replacement ROM could be obtained only from you!
As for broad knowledge well I'd certainly include myself in that! RF, power electronics, test gear etc etc as well as pure audio... I just don''t do digital!
Blue nun indeed, or knicker dropper glory as it was known around here ;). I used to buy it by the case :eyebrows:
Only had one mouthful, and it was like drinking acid. Even my tomato wine beat it and it was no great shakes. We only made it as there was only so much chutney you could make with half ripe toms.
It's completely impractical to use SMD for hand made electronics. If you do you're a glutton for punishment... with great eyesight and a very steady hand! Many of the best sounding components are also not available in SMD and so many manufacturers use much worse types that are available in SMD...
As to ROM's well you proved my point! "I write my own codes, which means that I can revisit it over and over again" yep your own code which is not generic, can't be replicated and a replacement ROM could be obtained only from you!
As for broad knowledge well I'd certainly include myself in that! RF, power electronics, test gear etc etc as well as pure audio... I just don''t do digital!
Likewise ignoring SMD forces you to ignore many useful devices. Some of the best sounding op amps for example are not available in through-hole. And TBH, "not doing digital" is a huge restriction on what’s possible. controllers like the Atmel xmega's are just so generally useful that I would find life far less fun without. And with reference to test gear, just about everything in the last 20 years has been quality analogue, a ADC and or DAC or the required sort and the rest of its just a computer. I have a great HP 500Mhz scope (Infinium) that boots Window 95 when its turned on. More current ones may be running Linux or QNX, but its still basically a computer.
Was the bird from the Blue Nun ads topping herself actually connected with Blue Nun?
It was Blue Nun if you wanted white wine and was it Black Tower for red? Dialectic wine. Simpler times, you see.
Was the bird from the Blue Nun ads topping herself actually connected with Blue Nun?
It was Blue Nun if you wanted white wine and was it Black Tower for red? Dialectic wine. Simpler times, you see.
Black Tower was white wine too IIRC. The cheapest red was Beau Maroc at 98p a bottle.
It all went wrong when Maggie T told us there was no such thing as society. That, and Big Pharma.
Affordable rent and mortgages is a very good point, Stan. It's something I've often read Joe bemoaning the existence of today, especially the inability for young people (perhaps his own kids) to get on the property ladder - yet of course, everything in life these days is just hunky dory! ;)
Marco.
Some things are better, some are worse. I just don't buy the idea that everything was fine up to a certain point, after which it All Went Horribly Wrong.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 15:48
Likewise ignoring SMD forces you to ignore many useful devices. Some of the best sounding op amps for example are not available in through-hole. And TBH, "not doing digital" is a huge restriction on what’s possible. controllers like the Atmel xmega's are just so generally useful that I would find life far less fun without. And with reference to test gear, just about everything in the last 20 years has been quality analogue, a ADC and or DAC or the required sort and the rest of its just a computer. I have a great HP 500Mhz scope (Infinium) that boots Window 95 when its turned on. More current ones may be running Linux or QNX, but its still basically a computer.
The point is the op amps in question are no longer made in standard through hole (TH) so you have to go to some lengths to use the SMD types by using SMD to TH adaptors etc! Which I do when necessary....
The test gear you describe is precisely the sort I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. If it goes wrong you probably ain't going to be able to fix it! We used all that sort of stuff at the last R+D job I was employed in... I could use the internet on the scope! I brought an analogue scope from home! I really don't want my test gear to be a computer.
As far as digital goes well it has its uses but to me it ain't electronics, it's computer programming ;) I had a colleague I still keep in touch with who loves PIC's etc and many a time I've pointed out that lets say a monostable and an op amp will do that job he's spent 2 days writing code for...
Like I said... call me a Luddite if you like but to me the way electronics in general was done 30 years ago is still the best way.... no not the cheapest by a long way and certainly not the smallest, but best? Repairable? Doable by one man bands/small companies? yep!
Black Tower was white wine too IIRC. The cheapest red was Beau Maroc at 98p a bottle.
It all went wrong when Maggie T told us there was no such thing as society. That, and Big Pharma.
I've always maintained the world went a bit weird after 1979, I don't think it was all Thatcher, though. That decade 1980 to 1990 saw a lot of social changes, notably that bullshit started to win out over substance, in a general and all-pervading way.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 15:52
Surface mounted device?
Indeed. They are now using BGA (Ball Grid Array) which may have 200 "pins" on a chip smaller than your thumb nail and all underneath the actual chip! Try prototyping something using that! Unless it is a matter of life and death... or more likely runs of 250,000 plus are to be made, it's a non starter.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 15:55
I've always maintained the world went a bit weird after 1979, I don't think it was all Thatcher, though. That decade 1980 to 1990 saw a lot of social changes, notably that bullshit started to win out over substance, in a general and all-pervading way.
Very true. I do blame Thatcher etc though for the neo-liberal economic policies which put profit, quick profit at that, above EVERYTHING else.
A quick profit was all they were ever after long before Thatcher, it's one of the reasons very few places modernised. They just ran things down until they couldn't make any more money and then liquidated. It is pretty much how business works (or doesn't, as the case may be). Not ideal, but what is? A fair few places that did modernise went under too because they couldn't afford it.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 16:06
A quick profit was all they were ever after long before Thatcher, it's one of the reasons very few places modernised. They just ran things down until they couldn't make any more money and then liquidated. It is pretty much how business works (or doesn't, as the case may be). Not ideal, but what is? A fair few places that did modernise went under too because they couldn't afford it.
It all went nastier and more pernicious with Thatcher though.
Everything got more 'corporate', that's true. And a lot of old buildings got pulled down and cheap, utilitarian crap got built instead. Lots of the character of the built environment got wiped out, along with a sense of past and continuity. You lose those two things alltogether and you have the end of society.
Arkless Electronics
30-05-2016, 16:18
Everything got more 'corporate', that's true. And a lot of old buildings got pulled down and cheap, utilitarian crap got built instead. Lots of the character of the built environment got wiped out, along with a sense of past and continuity. You lose those two things alltogether and you have the end of society.
I see what you did there :D
Very true. I do blame Thatcher etc though for the neo-liberal economic policies which put profit, quick profit at that, above EVERYTHING else.
Long profit for them though as they mostly grew with her govt and the money behind them. Money is just the means to the end which is power. Thats always been the case i know but her govt made an art of it and destroyed so many families many of whom may never recover. Areas wiped from the economic map.
Ah feel better for that :eyebrows:
Was the bird from the Blue Nun ads topping herself actually connected with Blue Nun?
It was Blue Nun if you wanted white wine and was it Black Tower for red? Dialectic wine. Simpler times, you see.
She shot her boyfriend and then herself in a quarrel. Using his gun that was back in 82 in NY. She was apparently doing quite well as an actress so it was odd but such is life in that city i guess. Reilly i think her name was
Some things are better, some are worse. I just don't buy the idea that everything was fine up to a certain point, after which it All Went Horribly Wrong.
Neither do I, Joe, but there were unquestionably certain things that were better 40 years ago than they are now; things that for some of us were/are rather important.
Marco.
Never worry about being called a snob. My ex would regularly scream "You and your mother are both snobs" true she brought me up to appreciate the better things in life, but snobs, I thought not. Then I went with Viv to cover a conference in Berlin that included a presentation by a Herr Doctor from the German Wine Institute. I hate German wine having participated in too much Blue Nun in the early seventies and most of what we were given bore out my view. Then came a vintage Reisling, 45 euros a bottle though I did not know this when tasting it. It was the only Reisling I have ever liked and I realised the Ex was right, I am a snob and proud of it...
Lol... I know where you're coming from. I do enjoy the finer things in life, but not as a result of it being gifted to me on a plate. Most of what I've got now, I've had to work hard for.
German wine is a bit of an enigma. There exists some superb examples, but most of the best stuff, if not all of it, isn't exported abroad. Blue Nun and Black Tower were a joke, as is most of the Liebfraumilch found in supermarkets today.
The ironic thing about the 60s and 70s is that some of the best vintages for wine occurred in those eras, yet what was available to the general public back then, in ordinary restaurants or supermarkets was absolute rubbish! :doh:
Germany actually produce some rather nice fruity reds, but you'll only get those, along with the best whites, in specialist wine merchants, or occasionally in Lidl/Aldi. Germany also produces some superb dessert wines, such as Spätlese, the best of which is rather more interesting than Sauternes.
Anyway, we're drifting.... :)
Marco.
Was the bird from the Blue Nun ads topping herself actually connected with Blue Nun?
It was Blue Nun if you wanted white wine and was it Black Tower for red? Dialectic wine. Simpler times, you see.
Terrible habit...
http://www.cats.hampshire.org.uk/RobinHood/Sister_Act.jpg
Partial to a nice drop of Piat d'Or myself.
You do realise that it's not a genuine wine, from a single vineyard, and so you're just emptying part of the Euro 'wine lake' down your gob? If you're serious, I'm surprised at you - life's too short to drink bad wine! ;)
Marco.
I think Barry's just 'avin a giraffe.
Piat d'Or, Mateus Rose, Concorde, Hirondelle ... the choice is endless.
Gettin back on audio... :)
I got a sharp tape player in a bunch of stuff they were dumping from the local auction house.. Still had a handfull of tapes kicking around so i put on Queen to see if it works...
Cant belive how much I liked the sound.....But it does make sence, I was born in 1976.. all my own music from about 85-86 up to well into the late 1990s was tape based, most of the weight in my collage bags were tapes, batterys and a walkman :)
So maybe I have a learned biased preferance to that kind of sound?
Is there a cognative programing effect that leads to a certain preferance of sound? One for the phillosophers that one.
I have managed to pick of a few unopened blank tapes recently, going to record some Flac thought my Musical fidelity Dac into the tape deck, just to see what it sounds like.
Interesting journey this audio malarkey.... John.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:14
Ive got a short list of a few Cassette decks i would like to try out but to say that people think Cassette decks are crap they seem to be selling & selling at high prices
;)
Arkless Electronics
31-05-2016, 13:17
Ive got a short list of a few Cassette decks i would like to try out but to say that people think Cassette decks are crap they seem to be selling & selling at high prices
;)
There was zero interest when I put some nice cassette decks up for sale here a couple of weeks ago... They were only there for about a day though.
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:26
There was zero interest when I put some nice cassette decks up for sale here a couple of weeks ago... They were only there for about a day though.
People have this 'It must be a 3 Head cassette deck or nothing' firmly grafted into their brains for some reason. I have heard & owned a lot of fine sounding 2 Headers but o no they wont have it, i often wonder if these people even listern to them!!
Arkless Electronics
31-05-2016, 13:30
People have this 'It must be a 3 Head cassette deck or nothing' firmly grafted into their brains for some reason. I have heard & owned a lot of fine sounding 2 Headers but o no they wont have it, i often wonder if these people even listern to them!!
2 of em were 3 head. Tandberg TCD-440A x 2.....
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 13:35
You still got the Tandbergs?
You do realise that it's not a genuine wine, from a single vineyard, and so you're just emptying part of the Euro 'wine lake' down your gob? If you're serious, I'm surprised at you - life's too short to drink bad wine! ;)
Marco.
I was being sarcastic; maybe I should have added "not" or a :lol:. It's a blend cobbled together by a marketing focus group to produce something that will sell cheaply, but is wanting in the taste department. Just like 'Golden Delicious' apples - nice uniform, 'attractive' looking apples, that have no taste to them.
Not if you eat them in France, almost direct from the tree! ;) What you know as "Golden Delicious' apples here are but a pale imitation of their true selves.
The quality of the majority of fruit in this country, bought from supermarkets, is abysmal....
I had a feeling you were being sarcastic, but it was worth pointing out anyway for the uninitiated amongst us :eyebrows:
Marco.
There was zero interest when I put some nice cassette decks up for sale here a couple of weeks ago... They were only there for about a day though.
Never saw them ... I gave oneaway the other week... Too much hassle trying to sell most decks now
Ive never had a 3 head one...2 head is enough.. Double capstan it good though
I have a couple of 2 head Nakamichi machines gathering dust.
I have a couple of 2 head Nakamichi machines gathering dust.
Geta good name there cassette decks ...some sell for silly money
Arkless Electronics
31-05-2016, 17:11
You still got the Tandbergs?
Oh yes. 3 motor, 3 head, dual capstan, adjustable azimuth and bias, metal compatible and Actilinear recording system.... I had a quick look at what they go for earlier and between about £60 and £700 is the confusing result of my googling.... They were about £650 new in 1980:eek:
sounds well specced jez. guess its worth what you get when it comes to cassette decks, barring a few well known ones that have been "Deemed" the best:doh:
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 17:59
Yeh mine sprung knackered power supply. :steam:
Virtual-Symmetry
31-05-2016, 18:01
Another one was my old '3034' I remember posting pictures up here a few years ago. That broke down aswell. Since then ive always king hankered around Technics Cassette Decks..Never ever would i again touch the Jap brand that peep always must have ;)
Reel 2 Reel tape decks?
Hate to shut the discussion down,but this proves old tech can be better.
Good spot, that article Marco, and what a good point that chap makes! Why do some feel the need for the latest and greatest, when clearly it's rarely that, as one can the get trapped in a merry-go-round of hifi changes and swaps which prove nothing other than dissatisfaction with your lot, unless you do it for fun. (Even then I sometimes wonder if people ever give music a chance over what's used to play it?). What was really good 30 or 40 years ago is still really good today. Plenty of people using various vintage TTs, amplifiers, Tannoys, Quad ESLs, R2Rs, tonearms etc attest to that and the beuaty with a lot of this kit was that is was better made then some kit today and remians serviceable, and importantly can be serviced (unlike the throw away PCBs and mechs in most up to date kit....look at the way expensive Linn kit is going for example....is that serviceable? I know it's expensive!).
Linns willingness/ability to service its older equipment has dwindled significantly over the years.
Linns willingness/ability to service its older equipment has dwindled significantly over the years.
Surprised?
Arkless Electronics
01-06-2016, 14:36
Linn have gone too far down the technology for its own sake path IMHO and this is making their electronics poor sounding and difficult/expensive to repair. Loads of SMD, 'processers, FPGA's, SWMPSU's etc
Reel 2 Reel tape decks?
Hate to shut the discussion down,but this proves old tech can be better.
Erm.. OK
Spent formative years at the Canadian Broadcast Corp.
Studio reel to reels (1/2" tape things) Had Log books for hours between Head replacements.
About every couple of months... IIRC
You have a box of spare heads and the paraphenalia to adjust the replacements?
Or the time to reverse wind tapes to prevent print through?
Let sleeping dogs lie
Spent formative years at the Canadian Broadcast Corp.
Interesting, as I have a big passion for professional broadcast equipment. Do you remember which T/Ts, arms and cartridges were used in the studios? :)
Marco.
Interesting perspective Danilo...
Was reporting purely after hearing how good a fettled reel 2 reel machine could sound. :)
Remember tape cleaning and demagnetising my tape deck...and not fondly.
Does R2R really need a lot of ongoing maintenance?
Erm.. OK
Spent formative years at the Canadian Broadcast Corp.
Studio reel to reels (1/2" tape things) Had Log books for hours between Head replacements.
About every couple of months... IIRC
You have a box of spare heads and the paraphenalia to adjust the replacements?
Or the time to reverse wind tapes to prevent print through?
Let sleeping dogs lie
Guess if they are being used all day every day.....
yess pretty well constant 'industrial' usage. Min 8 hours day... often more.
Night shifts were common.
Point being that Tape is essentially fine sandpaper.. it Eats Anything that presses against it.
In a home use..Likely to only need fresh heads every year or so.. mebe?
Still, not a trivial task, then there remains the print through problem... even on industrial tape which is far thicker than the consumer variety (or at least it was)
Amazingly though, there are those that Love their 1/2" tape gizmos even today.
We are an odd bunch :-)
yess pretty well constant 'industrial' usage. Min 8 hours day... often more.
Night shifts were common.
Point being that Tape is essentially fine sandpaper.. it Eats Anything that presses against it.
In a home use..Likely to only need fresh heads every year or so.. mebe?
Still, not a trivial task, then there remains the print through problem... even on industrial tape which is far thicker than the consumer variety (or at least it was)
Amazingly though, there are those that Love their 1/2" tape gizmos even today.
We are an odd bunch :-)
I used to, but when I found I could make recordings on a Sony cassette machine that were the equal of those made at 7 1/2 ips on a Ferrograph 632 reel-to-reel machine, the Ferrograph was put away. Still have a Nagra IV - S machine on which I can play back the tapes I made on the Ferrograph, as well as making new tapes should I wish (I have plenty of spare tape).
Whay Sony tapedeck Barry?
Hi Danillo,
Did you miss this:
Interesting, as I have a big passion for professional broadcast equipment. Do you remember which T/Ts, arms and cartridges were used in the studios? :)
:popcorn: :)
Marco.
Whay Sony tapedeck Barry?
Sorry Garry, it was a good while ago and I don't remember the model number.
Sorry Garry, it was a good while ago and I don't remember the model number.
Ah well :)
Hi Danillo,
Did you miss this:
:popcorn: :)
Marco.
Clearly did... apologies.
From memory it ..was.. early 70's.
Direct drive TTs made/supplied by a former CBC employee. Made in Montreal.. Richardson (??) rings a bell Instantly recognise the thing If I saw it though
Biggish standalone kinda klunky things, reminiscent of TD124 styling..seemingly unbreakable
Empire cartridges were the Only ones used in my time there. Seemed as a prosaic choice to a budding Audio Weenie at the time, but these worked well enough.
Thanks. Interesting... Never heard of Richardson turntables. Do you know if the Empire cartridges you used were like any of these: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vintage+empire+cartridges&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=718&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJqaPD7ofNAhUiLMAKHWnRDvAQsAQIKA#imgrc= _
:cool:
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
01-06-2016, 22:28
Remember the first episode of Inspector Morse. The fictional turntable manufacture was called Richardson Audio it was actually a Roksan 'Xerxes'..
Could be right about the TT maker's Name (wife was a John Thaw fan)
Maybe it was Dennison.. Frankly I Can't definitively remember TBH
Do remember what they looked like tho: typically table height metal boxes of rounded corner in ersatz Raymond Loewy style (wheeled too)
Everything painted Hammerite Grey/silver. Headshells were of the classic stamped can style. As were the arms
No visible Counterweights to the S shaped arm. Massive Direct Drive motor.. was it's reason for existing/purchase apparently.
Cart was the of the gold coloured body version, in two types: Clear or Red stylus assembly. No idea what the differences were.
There were boxes of them. No supplies of Needles though. As a guess Carts were same price as Needles Nothing new there :-)
Surprisingly these lived Very Long, as replacements were rarely fitted.
Always wondered why plentiful supplies were kept available.
This in a place where a cadre of Techies twiddled/adjusted the tube gear virtually daily (wee night hours usually)
I was just a Kid then.. manning a TV camera in a production studio.
Best Job I've ever had. Sunday evening was the best part of the weekend.
Worked mebe 2 hours a day, rest was Adult ( male :-) Daycare playtime.
An entire production centres worth of Toys to play with.. and Play we did.
Went back to school eventually.
Fun as it was. It proved too meagre a salary for Food and Rent .. at the same time.
Thanks for sharing... All interesting stuff!
The turntables you describe sound right up my street. Are you sure that they were direct-drive though, and not idler? From your description, they sound a bit like the Russco or Gates T/Ts, (often used in American radio stations), or perhaps McCurdy, but if definitely direct-drive, could've been EMTs.
Do any of these ring a bell... McCurdy: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Mccurdy+turntables&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=718&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ9q_q94jNAhVlJcAKHa-rD5oQsAQIHg
Russco: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Russco+turntables&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=718&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidzJXX-IjNAhVmK8AKHZ96BWAQ_AUIBygC
Gates: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Gates+turntables&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=718&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwid597r-IjNAhWhOsAKHaeqB-AQ_AUIBygC
In terms of the Empire cartridges you mentioned, which gold one from those shown here, were they most like: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=empire+cartridges&espv=2&biw=1440&bih=718&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMvqKu-YjNAhWqK8AKHbk8CAYQ_AUIBygC
Click on the one you think is nearest and copy and paste the link here. It's just that I love the sound of quality broadcast cartridges, and own numerous examples, so Empire may be another worth investigating :)
Marco.
Nice Russco, shown here (scroll down): http://www.audioaficionado.org/turntables-tonearms/18332-idler-drives-lets-see-your-pics.html
Some of these old broadcast T/Ts can sound stunning, simply because of the superb engineering (T/Ts are, after all, very much engineering-derived devices) and 'battleship' build quality. Yet another example of 'old tech' being capable of great results! :cool:
Marco.
Not generally big on industrial decks like EMT but i like that
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160602/27ff87ac2832acb43111d5705f5648dc.jpg
Hi Paul.
Sorry, just seen this!
Good spot, that article Marco, and what a good point that chap makes! Why do some feel the need for the latest and greatest, when clearly it's rarely that, as one can the get trapped in a merry-go-round of hifi changes and swaps which prove nothing other than dissatisfaction with your lot, unless you do it for fun. (Even then I sometimes wonder if people ever give music a chance over what's used to play it?). What was really good 30 or 40 years ago is still really good today. Plenty of people using various vintage TTs, amplifiers, Tannoys, Quad ESLs, R2Rs, tonearms etc attest to that and the beuaty with a lot of this kit was that is was better made then some kit today and remians serviceable, and importantly can be serviced (unlike the throw away PCBs and mechs in most up to date kit....look at the way expensive Linn kit is going for example....is that serviceable? I know it's expensive!).
Indeed, and it's that last bit that rips my knitting most, as it's just so wasteful! :rolleyes:
The reason why there are people still using the equipment you mention is because it was built to be the best it possibly could be back then and engineered to last. How much of today's hi-fi equipment could you say the same thing about? And 'best' back then is invariably up there with the best of what's available now, especially after the renewal of a few tired components.
Most stuff today, outside of some ridiculously priced uber high-end gear, most certainly isn't built to be the best it possibly can, even within its price bracket, nor is it engineered to 'last a lifetime', as equipment once was. Quality has been replaced with convenience, cost-effectiveness and miniaturisation, and in most instances, smaller, cheaper and more convenient *isn't* better, certainly in the areas that matter most to discerning audiophiles and music lovers such as us!
Hey-ho, we deal with it and move on as best we can, but it's important that the truth gets out there as often as possible, on threads such as this, in order to dilute, as much as possible, the oft-held and erroneous notion that 'newest is always best'... :nono:
Marco.
Not generally big on industrial decks like EMT but i like that
Cool, innit? :)
The thing is, what a lot of folk don't realise is that the knock-on effect of those old broadcast turntables being built like brick outhouses, with massive bearings, platters and motors, in order to cope with the abuse they would get in everyday use in radio stations, is superb sound quality, simply due to how well they were engineered, in terms of those items in question.
It's one of the reasons why they sound so 'ballsy' and effortless, underpinning music with oodles of 'heft' and low-end authority! And in turn why they can be such huge fun to listen to, and why the vast majority of 'hi-fi turntables' sound rather anaemic and weedy in comparison...
The only things really holding them back from delivering true audiophile performance, was sometimes the arms and cartridges which were fitted to them, although even those can be made to sound great with a some judicious tweaks, as they were generally designed for robustness over anything else, but with some of them there was more to it than that.
However, fit your favourite 'hi-fi tonearm' and cartridge, and house the motor units in quality plinths (as was done to the Russco you like), and you've potentially got very hard to beat turntables, which despite any sonic failings they might have, will always put a smile on your face with their effortless style of music-making, much in the same way as the feeling you'd get when cruising down the motorway in a nice big Bentley!
Marco.
Here are a pair of Russcos 'in action' in a radio station in the States, back in the day, fitted with Rek-o-Kut tonearms:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/WkYzXd.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmWkYzXdj)
And a rather lovely 'purposeful' looking Rek-o-Kut Rondine T/T and arm:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/yYgKJK.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poyYgKJKj)
Right up my (high-mass) analogue alleyway! :thumbsup:
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
02-06-2016, 13:12
The burning Question is would you swap out that crappy Techy for a quality Broadcast deck?
2nd system excuses are nay allowed Jimmeh ;)
:eyebrows:
Being sarcastic, I could say Rek-O-Kut arms are so called because that is what they do - cut their own groove in the record! :D
The burning Question is would you swap out that crappy Techy for a quality Broadcast deck?
2nd system excuses are nay allowed Jimmeh ;)
:eyebrows:
Lol... No, because my "crappy Techy" is tried and tested and sounds fantastic! These old broadcast T/Ts are largely an unknown quantity and something I'd have to take a punt on, which I'm certainly willing to do, but only as a second T/T, in case it didn't work out.
I ees no daft... Well, I am, but not in that way :D
Marco.
Being sarcastic, I could say Rek-O-Kut arms are so called because that is what they do - cut their own groove in the record! :D
Ha - I know where you're coming from, but doubt it, as there are a number of enthusiasts using them as 'serious' arms on quality T/Ts and systems. For example, here's one fitted to a nice TD124:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/8wLmAT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pl8wLmATj)
Looks pretty cool, I think, and marries well with the vintage aesthetic!
Also, read this chap's account of using a DL-103 with a Rek-o-Kut tonearm:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/gHlw7l.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmgHlw7lj)
Almost a couple of weeks back, I made up a 5 ft length of Cardas 33 gauge tonearm wire, twisted it, and run it from cardas cartridge clips to some gold plated copper rcas. I built this so I could use the same exact tonearm wire on all my project arms while I sort out which to use and which to sell.
By the way, the Cardas 33 guage wire was a dramatic upgrade in sound. More 3D sound, and a wider soundstage. Total cost of this tweak was 61 bucks.
So this morning I decided to try the Denon DL-103R mounted on the cleaned up Model 120 Rek O Kut arm. Hell I just wanted to hear the damn thing so why not. Mounting the DL 103R was not at all tricky. Luckily the old mono cartridge had all the brass spacers and screws to do the job.
I ended up using a chrome metal candle holder, looks like a bathroom size glass, then put a 5/8 inch mdf arm board from my Kenwood table and sat the Model 120 straight back of the spindle on the SL 1200 table at 208mm.
With the heavy mass tonearm, the Denon really pours out the bass lines and the midbass is very life like as well.
Overall the Rek O Kut Model 120 arm delivers more meat and potatoes to the sound of the Denon than any of my light and mid mass arms. No negatives to report either. Vocals and highs are just fine. My only complaint is that it is not as good in fleshing out all the inner detail in the midbass and vocal range as my Rega or SME arms.
Damn, this thing likes to lay down the tunes with the Denon DL-103R on my SL-1200 MK 5 table. I am really impressed and I plan to spin a bunch of different albums to know how I like it for certain.
Read more here: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=526912
The bit in bold is precisely why I love the high-mass approach! Yes, there are trade-offs, just like there are with the low-mass one, but it better suits my sonic proclivities :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
02-06-2016, 17:33
I would dearly love a Sparta 'GT-12' /Syntec 'S220' broadcast jobbie but i know full well it would not be as good as the deck i use now.
Never heard of Sparta before now, dude. Just Googled them - interesting! Slightly Russco-like, I feel.
I am, however, familiar with the Syntec arm, which is quality :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
02-06-2016, 18:47
http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Catalogs/Miscellaneous-Manufacturers/Sparta-1980-Catalog.pdf
[Page 25]
Cool...
Cracking image of a Rek O Kut arm and Pickering cartridge:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/RXwwYH.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmRXwwYHj)
Now *that* is what you call a headshell! ;)
Nice and 'phat' with no ugly wires or bolts showing.... i like those vintage Pickerings, too.
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
02-06-2016, 20:15
Aye that Pickering body is a classic.. Love mine. Im no snob with cartridges ffks, cheap as chips but sound superb.
Same here. None of the cartridges I own now cost more than £500. Most are much less! At one time, it was rather different :eek:
Some of the vintage MMs sound simply superb :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
02-06-2016, 20:20
They do mate. However some nutters look down their nose at such cheap carts. Basically ignorant snobs.
I know. If it's not produced once every equinox by a Japanese ex-swordsman, hand-carved from the bark of Babinga trees, featuring coils sprinkled with the quim-oil of Venezuelan virgins, it's no use...
Nuttaz!! :lol: :mental:
Marco.
Same here. None of the cartridges I own now cost more than £500. Most are much less! At one time, it was rather different :eek:
Some of the vintage MMs sound simply superb :)
Marco.
None of the cartridges I own cost more than £400 (though a couple were close to that figure). The cheapest was £5!
There are plenty of 'sleepers' still out there. :)
I know. If it's not produced once every equinox by a Japanese ex-swordsman, hand-carved from the bark of Babinga trees, featuring coils sprinkled with the quim-oil of Venezuelan virgins, it's no use...
Nuttaz!! :lol: :mental:
Marco.
Don't forget it has to be assembled by the light of a full moon, and then afterwards blessed by the Dali Lama.
(By the way, virgin 'quim oil' is very bad for the cantilever suspension - avoid!)
Ah yes, stage 4... How could I forget! :D
Anyway, don't you think the Rekky looks good on a TD124:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/921/AskxnT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plAskxnTj)
For me, aesthetically, that fits like a glove! :)
Marco.
P.S In case you didn't know, the little red turnkey is optional. I prefer the arm/headshell without it.
(By the way, virgin 'quim oil' is very bad for the cantilever suspension - avoid!)
And you know this how? :eyebrows:
Marco.
That headshell looks as though it's part of a '50's Studebaker car.
Never heard of Sparta before now, dude. Just Googled them - interesting! Slightly Russco-like, I feel.
I am, however, familiar with the Syntec arm, which is quality :)
Marco.
Sparta?
http://www.relatably.com/m/img/memes-this-is-sparta/42509819.jpg
And you know this how? :eyebrows:
Marco.
Through 45 years experience with pickup cartridges. :lol:
That headshell looks as though it's part of a '50's Studebaker car.
And that's a bad thing?
Marco.
Through 45 years experience with pickup cartridges. :lol:
But only ....years with virgins? :D
Marco.
And that's a bad thing?
Marco.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - I think it looks a bit too 'Flash Gordon'; much prefer the albeit similar, but black, Ortofon G headshells.
walpurgis
02-06-2016, 20:57
45 years experience with pickup cartridges
Ah. Me too. Think I may have learned a bit along the way.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - I think it looks a bit too 'Flash Gordon'; much prefer the albeit similar, but black, Ortofon G headshells.
I know where you're coming from. I wouldn't say it was beautiful; simply purposeful. There is a difference ;)
I like hi-fi equipment that looks like it means business!
Marco.
not me... learned sfa. not gonna now. ;)
...anyways, near virgin juice will do at a push; you cant get good virgins now; now back in the 70's they were 10 a penny:lol:
walpurgis
02-06-2016, 21:14
I like hi-fi equipment that looks like it means business!
Marco.
My dog looks like he means business. I came downstairs this morning and found he'd done a load of it on the rug (true) :eek:.
My dog looks like he means business. I came downstairs this morning and found he'd done a load of it on the rug (true) :eek:.
Ah, what in Italy we would refer to as 'hasanga'. It adds texture to a Bolognese sauce. Simply pick out the 'bits' and use the 'gravy' only! :eyebrows:
Marco.
walpurgis
02-06-2016, 21:25
Ah, what in Italy we would refer to as 'hasanga'. It adds texture to a Bolognese sauce. Simply pick out the 'bits', and use the 'gravy' only! :eyebrows:
Marco.
It was gravy. Something had upset the poor lad.
(I spent a smelly half hour cleaning up :rolleyes:)
Awww.... Hope he's feeling better now.
I hate the fuckers who give their dogs chocolate! :doh: :rolleyes:
Marco.
Rush2112
02-06-2016, 21:38
I"m with Marci on this, I've never seen anything on domestic video tape rival DVD in picture or sound quality terms. Doubtless there are pro broadcast systems capable of high quality audio and video but again their digital counterparts have no doubt made them all but obsolete.
Marco;
The TT image that looks similar was the McCurdy
It looks of the same genre17126
Not exactly right but close. Also the Canadian provenance ?
Again: an ex employees' Cottage industry. Unlikely a widely dispersed product line
Thought it was DD.. But images do show Idler wheels.
Motor is definitely Large so that memory is passable at least.
Empires were likely of the 2000 series as a guess. Sure looks like 'em.
Not sure if the 2000 series was time correct though ? Sure looked like those though.
Not sure that Sound Quality back then was the Holy Grail that We aspire to today.
It was a Large complex. Hundreds of us Twits, each and every one unique and fascinating.
Clearly they all self selected to live/work there. Likely a worthwhile Doctoral thesis in that :-)
Getting to know the inmates, entertained me for a few years.
Memorable ones:
TeleCine chain room. Essentially a film projector focused onto a TV camera.. This was used for playing Film Movies into the TV feed.
Dungeon location /conditions though as it needed nothing.. other than electricity
The large man whose kingdom it was, was stooped and sickly white (dangerously so).. Nice man actually, an appalling toll on his life though.
A Flim librarian 'claimed' to have been an assistant of Leni Riefenstahl.. ( I found it credible eventually, after careful study)..fascinating rascal, certifiably odd.
People on the Video Tape Recording room.. Walls lined with then New (Extremely Pricey) Ampeg 2" Video tape machines, each the size of decent refrigerator, a couple dozen or more
They cobbled up an Air Rifle range in there.. held well attended contests too.
One day 'Deep Throat' was on Every monitor in the centre (hundreds of TVs, 90% of us watching) It came perilously close to being broadcast nationally when the final "transmission gatekeeper" crew became engrossed in it.
Mobile Video Group had a Brand new open frame Slow Motion machine: a 2' diameter Chrome Hard drive disc.. completely exposed, spinning inside a washing machine space frame housing.. Massive 2 Mbs of memory
allowing for 30 secs of instant Hockey game replays. Hey! Same era where the Lunar Lander featured a 74 Kb 'computer'
Fascinating people/place.
Unlikely it's current form is even a shadow of it's Heyday.. Genuine shame that.
Hated to leave it ..But I couldn't afford to stay.
Nice one. I know the type of turntables you're talking about. It could've been a McCurdy badged as something else, and more likely to be idler-driven than direct-drive. The latter would usually come from Technics (SP10) or EMT, and would've been much more expensive.
Noted on the Empire 2000s. I found this rather interesting article, and on the basis of it, and also sheer curiosity, I may be tempted to give one a go: http://adventureshifi.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/in-praise-of-empires-empire-2000s-and.html
:cool:
I also found an article, on VE, mentioning something called a 'Broadcast One', which may be nearer to what you used: http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=57384
Marco.
Hope it was of some use, I do tend to rabbit on ;)
As for memory? I often forget what I had at Breakfast.
Logically.. the MCurdy seems more and more to be what was in use. More faulty memory tho ?
The Empire carts were fairly inexpensive items when current. Similar to a mid grade Shure cheap.
Find and buy one?? Hopefully not too pricey. Could be quite interesting, given that some seem impressed by the old Shure carts these days.
Do suspect that 'Issued to Broadcasters' new releases were of superior quality to general production Vinyl .
I have a few of those Broadcast LPs (still ;-) and they are ..definitely.. to a higher/better sound standard than bought in store ones.
Never hear mention of that though.
Canetoad
04-06-2016, 01:02
My Pioneer PL-71 had an Empire 2000Z on it when I bought it. Never tried it. I don't know what sort of condition the stylus is in though. Any ideas on a cheap microscope for checking it?
I'm wondering if I can still get an NOS stylus for it so I can give it a try. There was a German web site selling them a while ago but can't remember the name. :scratch:
I have a couple of these: http://www.amazon.com/Light-Microscope-Loupe-Currency-Detecting/dp/B006W2IEB2
Notably Mine were ~3$ delivered .
I liked the first one so much I bought another.
The 60X is in truth not quite enough Magnification for a.. Really good .. determination of Stylus condition.
But? for 3 bux tough to niggle about it too much
Lodgesound
04-06-2016, 08:42
In response to Marco's earlier posting in this thread about VHS and Betamax - when we as punters were allowed such things (which at the time for home use represented extremely advanced technology) the Broadcast and duplication industries used these analogue monsters to make master material.
At the time they came out (the first generations circa 1981) each one cost around £75 000....at the time!
http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss270/Lodgesound/IMG_0208_zpsowf5db5c.jpg (http://s582.photobucket.com/user/Lodgesound/media/IMG_0208_zpsowf5db5c.jpg.html)
That's a cool bit of kit. Love the little TV screen.
As a piece of engineering, and 'old tech', that is just simply stunning! :stalks: £75k? That's just mental...
As you say, the little screen is well cool. Now, even though I'm observing the colours through a modern computer screen, I can still tell by looking at them how much richer and warmer they look, compared with the colder and 'acid-toned' variety, produced by today's equipment ;)
Perhaps Stewart knows where I'm coming from here?
Marco.
Turn up the colour on your screen...job done. ;)
Ha - I knew someone would say that! :eyebrows:
Nah, I'm talking about something different entirely.
Marco.
As a piece of engineering, and 'old tech', that is just simply stunning! :stalks: £75k? That's just mental...
As you say, the little screen is well cool. Now, even though I'm observing the colours through a modern computer screen, I can still tell by looking at them how much richer and warmer they look, compared with the colder and 'acid-toned' variety, produced by today's equipment ;)
Perhaps Stewart knows where I'm coming from here?
Marco.
Have to agree with Marco here, even given the fact we're looking at it on a different screen there is a vibrancy in those hues that's undeniable.
Since I got my latest car I've been listening to DAB radio which I was pleased with and thought was great until i pressed the radio button again by accident and it jumped to the same station but on FM, wow, suddenly the force of presenters' breath coming out of their lungs was palpable, they sounded like humans and not a flat compressed "nice" tone.
I find a similar realness to vinyl but there's a punch and clarity from my CD player that my TT can't match. I guess to get the best of both a very expensive TT is required!
Have to agree with Marco here, even given the fact we're looking at it on a different screen there is a vibrancy in those hues that's undeniable.
Precisely. I'm glad that someone else has sufficient optical discernment to identify it! ;)
Colours produced by today's equipment are 'flatter', 'greyer' and more insipid in appearance, and like you say less vibrant.
Marco.
As you say, the little screen is well cool. Now, even though I'm observing the colours through a modern computer screen, I can still tell by looking at them how much richer and warmer they look, compared with the colder and 'acid-toned' variety, produced by today's equipment
But thats a test signal that is being displayed, probably produced digitally looking at the on screen text. Its not being played from tape.
Colours produced by today's equipment are 'flatter', 'greyer' and more insipid in appearance, and like you say less vibrant.
Marco.
Definition may be better due to number of pixels but the depth of colour isn't there.
It's like more of less.
Maybe with a very expensive modern TV you get equivalent strong colours, years ago all TVs were expensive in comparison to the average wage, hence the number of TVs you had became a status symbol.
Not convinced with LED lamps either for the same reasons.
But thats a test signal that is being displayed, probably produced digitally looking at the on screen text. Its not being played from tape.
Indeed, but the screen it's being displayed on will be a small CRT, which itself, in terms of colour quality, IMO is superior to that produced by today's flat screens :)
Marco.
Definition may be better due to number of pixels but the depth of colour isn't there.
It's like more of less.
That's also how I see it: kind of 'ultimate resolution/definition (as defined by digital) vs. naturalness', i.e. what's actually more real or lifelike. The former, to my eyes, although superficially 'sharper', is 'watered down' to a degree, and so colours lack the richness and depth that they should have naturally, as produced by nature.
Not convinced with LED lamps either for the same reasons.
Yes, that's another good example. To my eyes, they produce a rather cold, 'silvery blue', whiter light, as opposed to the richer, warmer (yellowy) 'glow' from an incandescent light bulb. Progress? No, not for me.
The thing is, most people won't notice such things, or if they do, it won't be important to them.
I tend to pick up on them probably because of the work I do as a picture framer, so my eyes are attuned to scrutinising and assessing for the appropriateness of using certain colours in certain contexts. I also have very good eyesight for my age. You appear to be similar :)
Marco.
But given I assume that your laptop hasn't a CRT screen, you are seeing that on a LCD screen.
Remember that LCD displays have to be calibrated if they are intended for photo accurate work, as that monitor on the recorder would have been, TV's are not. Also, many LCD TV's come out of the box with settings that are entirely unsuitable for most living rooms. Just go and look at a wall of TV's at a place like Tescos and you can see the difference in colour reproduction from model to model. PC World/Curries, keep them further apart and that makes such comparisons harder.
I get all that Nick, and agree. Your points are undoubtedly valid. However, it doesn't alter, in that respect, what I know I can see. And it's rather different from what you're suggesting :)
The effect I'm referring to can't be defeated by colour or contrast adjustments; this is something inherent in the colour producing process of the equipment itself.
I'd like to know what Stewart's thoughts are on this.
Marco.
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