LENCO - GL75 Project

[brian2957]

Brian, both relieved and very pleased for you that the Gimp has worked. I always assumed the Gimp worked but just like you I do have a slight suspicion that the mats have slightly altered the tonearm alignment. Personally, just like you I don't care. So great minds and all that. :gig:

Thinking about it , there's a strong possibility that the Gimp mat is also providing an extra layer of isolation from the vibrations of the motor . However , I have no way of proving this Andy .

[Gazjam]

Thinking about it , there's a strong possibility that the Gimp mat is also providing an extra layer of isolation from the vibrations of the motor . However , I have no way of proving this Andy .

What's this "gimp mat" you speak of...? :D :whippin:

[brian2957]

I'll pay you a visit and show you mate :D https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fonotek-TURNTABLE-MAT-1-5mm-Platter/dp/B0184AYTHW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1477263182&sr=8-2&keywords=fonotek+mat

[struth]

gimp as in limp or floppy I guess.

[brian2957]

Hah ! that's more like it Grant :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice write up again Andy . It looks like another success story with an upgrade for the GL75 . The options for upgrading are getting scarce now mate . How does it now compare to your other turntables ?
This thread will be a fantastic resource should funds allow me to go down the same path in the future . For now I'm just enjoying the music :)

I still think we have quite some way to go. Mainly

1. Experiments in decoupling - the bearing and tonearm.
2. Xperiments in coupling - the top plate to the plinth
3. Experiments in vibration control - mainly absorption, dissipation, altering characteristics
4. Possibly more component optimisation
5. Cartridges

I'd probably go for vibration control and dampening as the next set of tweeks, they are cheap, cheerful and easily removed. Xmas is coming and funds for a new bearing will have to wait until 2017. Each of my decks does different things for different music. For example the 301 just "does" jazz far better than either my 301 or '75. The 1210 excels at intricate prog, heavy metal, classic rock, synth based music. The Lenco sits solidly in the middle it's an extremely good all rounder in that it's gives the 301 and 1210 a good run for their money but dosen't better them. I could quite happily live this deck if I didn't own the others.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not much doing tonight here in Wakefield. I've had the NSC down to 210V and did not like what I heard. It seems to be correct that lower volt values seem to screw up the soundstage and things go all mushy I could hear quite severe degradation of the piano in Kind of Blue (Miles Davis) tonight you could almost hear the soundstage firming up as you dialled the voltage back upto 220V. I remember asking about optimum voltage values for the 301 and most people seemed to suggest the 215-225V range so it looks like this might (to my ears) be a similar phenomen on the '75. The experimentation continues.

[brian2957]

Good feedback Andrew . Are you going to go the other way and try increasing the voltage to over 220V ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice write up again Andy . It looks like another success story with an upgrade for the GL75 . The options for upgrading are getting scarce now mate . How does it now compare to your other turntables ?
This thread will be a fantastic resource should funds allow me to go down the same path in the future . For now I'm just enjoying the music :)


Good feedback Andrew . Are you going to go the other way and try increasing the voltage to over 220V ?

well both my 301 &1210 run at 240v so I can't see why we can't experiment and the '75 was running straight from the mains which is usually 245v into our house.

[helma]

Not much doing tonight here in Wakefield. I've had the NSC down to 210V and did not like what I heard. It seems to be correct that lower volt values seem to screw up the soundstage and things go all mushy I could hear quite severe degradation of the piano in Kind of Blue (Miles Davis) tonight you could almost hear the soundstage firming up as you dialled the voltage back upto 220V. I remember asking about optimum voltage values for the 301 and most people seemed to suggest the 215-225V range so it looks like this might (to my ears) be a similar phenomen on the '75. The experimentation continues.

That does make sense, after all 220V was the mains voltage at least the Lenco was designed for. I don't think these motors are all that sensitive to voltage variations, but somewhere there is a spot or range where you get the best compromise between vibration / torque. Did you check speed and make adjustments if necessary when experimenting with the voltages? I'm not sure how exactly the Lenco motor works, but I don't think it's straight induction motor because if I recall correctly it was quite insensitive to voltage variations + it gets up to speed and mostly speed stable pretty quickly. I don't think it's synchronous either, I think there's a motor design that is sort of semi-synchronous, kind of like a step between the two types, it probably has a fancy name? The motor in Dual 1019 is a straight induction motor, and it was a lot more sensitive to changing the voltage and it also take a good half hour or so to warmp up and reach final speed, the speed gets slowly faster and faster as the motor warms up to operating temperature. I think it was probably Garrard who came up with a way to modify an induction motor to be less sensitive to voltage variations and behave more like a synchronous motor, while still retaining the better torque / size ratio of induction motors.

On completely different note, personally I'd get rid of that Shure before anything else, but if it's a cartridge you know and like, then maybe you're good on that front :) I just don't like the vintage Shures myself, at least most of them, though I have to admit I haven't heard the M55 but if it's anything at all like M75 I know I'd hate it. Also the bass lightness you mentioned, I suppose it depends on how light exactly it is, but I don't think it should be a feature of the Lenco, I'd suspect arm and/or cartridge first. I know most people wouldn't call the vintage Shures exactly bass light, but IME they don't really do deep bass that well, despite having a somewhat pronounced mid bass.

[Wakefield Turntables]

That does make sense, after all 220V was the mains voltage at least the Lenco was designed for. I don't think these motors are all that sensitive to voltage variations, but somewhere there is a spot or range where you get the best compromise between vibration / torque. Did you check speed and make adjustments if necessary when experimenting with the voltages? I'm not sure how exactly the Lenco motor works, but I don't think it's straight induction motor because if I recall correctly it was quite insensitive to voltage variations + it gets up to speed and mostly speed stable pretty quickly. I don't think it's synchronous either, I think there's a motor design that is sort of semi-synchronous, kind of like a step between the two types, it probably has a fancy name? The motor in Dual 1019 is a straight induction motor, and it was a lot more sensitive to changing the voltage and it also take a good half hour or so to warmp up and reach final speed, the speed gets slowly faster and faster as the motor warms up to operating temperature. I think it was probably Garrard who came up with a way to modify an induction motor to be less sensitive to voltage variations and behave more like a synchronous motor, while still retaining the better torque / size ratio of induction motors.

On completely different note, personally I'd get rid of that Shure before anything else, but if it's a cartridge you know and like, then maybe you're good on that front :) I just don't like the vintage Shures myself, at least most of them, though I have to admit I haven't heard the M55 but if it's anything at all like M75 I know I'd hate it. Also the bass lightness you mentioned, I suppose it depends on how light exactly it is, but I don't think it should be a feature of the Lenco, I'd suspect arm and/or cartridge first. I know most people wouldn't call the vintage Shures exactly bass light, but IME they don't really do deep bass that well, despite having a somewhat pronounced mid bass.

Kai, thanks for the input. My Lenco was pretty quick getting upto speed in that as soon as it was switched on I had 33.3rpm. This deck now runs spot on 33.3 irrespective of voltages. Now, the Shure cartridges. The bass on this Shure is very very good and I would agree it does seem to have a pronounced mid bass (well spotted). I was comparing the cartridge to a Ortofon Cadenza black and SME V combination on my Technics 1210, now this really can produce bass! Compared to that combination the Shure is always going to be bass light but don't get me wrong, John Paul Jones Bass lines on the BBC Session which I'm listening to now do not sound bass light :eek: I've long suspected the Shure being the bottle neck but the deck just sounds so good with this ancient Shure.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - NSC pt 2 - Some thoughts.

The NSC has been a sucsess it has given then Lenco a greater improved presentation and I'm very happy with the soundstage. One of the main reasons to try a NSC is to drop the voltage and hopefully dropping vibrations going into the top plate and bearing. Ideally, I suppose the lowest possible voltage should give the lowest possible level of vibration. If only things were so simple! Selecting the Voltage level is difficult and it's defined by what you like to hear in your soundstage. I've been playing around with 200V and in all honesty can't notice any degradation of the soundstage, I think last nights wibble with Kind of Blue was a one off as I've been listening to loads of stuff over the last 2 hours and things sound mighty fine, quite addictive in fact.

Now for something completely different. My trawling of the Lenco Heaven site is nearly over I only have two more fourm areas to read and then I've finishe the entire forum. I'm still producing a master list of modifications and will publish it on this thread when I've finished going through the entire forum.

[brian2957]

Nice one Andy , money well spent then :) Good to have that kind of control over the Lenco , unfortunately it comes at a cost . I look forward to your opinion once you've had some more time to listen .
There are so many ''sub threads '' on Lenco Heaven I did it differently from you and probably missed some important threads so I look forward to your recommendations .

[helma]

Ideally, I suppose the lowest possible voltage should give the lowest possible level of vibration. If only things were so simple! Selecting the Voltage level is difficult and it's defined by what you like to hear in your soundstage. I've been playing around with 200V and in all honesty can't notice any degradation of the soundstage, I think last nights wibble with Kind of Blue was a one off as I've been listening to loads of stuff over the last 2 hours and things sound mighty fine, quite addictive in fact.

Not sure how the Lenco motor will handle significant undervoltage, but I think chances are at some point lowering the voltage will start to cause more vibration again, at least that was my experience with the Dual motor. If you have a means of checking for that, finding the points where vibration starts to increase and aiming for middle would be a good starting point I think. Say you can't really tell a difference between 200-220, but at 225 you start to notice an increase and likewise with 195, in that case 210V would be right in the middle.

One way to try would be putting something like a small plastic box on the top plate and lowering the stylus on it with the platter spinning and then play around with the voltage. It's not exactly like when playing a record, but might give you an idea what could come through.

This is completely off topic, but I'll just throw this in here since I've got started :) I finally swapped arms between the Denon DP-3000 & Lenco the other night, meaning now the FR-54 is on the Denon and Denon DA-305 on the Lenco, making a more valid comparison between the two decks possible. I can't really fault the Denon, it sounds very precise and matter of fact, bass is deep and well controlled, but I think I prefer the Lenco. Somehow the soundstage with the Denon doesn't seem up to par compared with the Lenco and with the Lenco there was a more involving sense of presence and immediacy, a certain fluidity.

Another interesting thing is I can't really say there was an obvious improvement switching from DA-305 to the FR-54, which runs countrary to my previous experience with those two arms, in the Lenco for example the FR-54 is clearly superior. With the Denon DP-3000 they seem very even or I might even prefer the Denon arm. On the Lenco the arm is mounted on the top plate, with the Denon obviously in the plinth since it's a motor unit only, maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe the engineers at Denon actually knew what they were doing and there's some synergy going on there between the Denon components. Hard to resist the temptation of getting a Denon cartridge to go with the pair, but it's not an expense I really need right now. I can imagine though a DL-103 would sound mighty fine in there. Anyway, with my previous experience regarding the arms, mounting the FR-54 on the Denon was actually a slight disappointment, if the performance had jumped similarly to what I've experienced before, I think it would've surpassed the Lenco as my main table. Maybe it's for the better though, I think the Denon has better resale value. Gotta love the 70s futuristic flying saucer styling :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight update - Do you fancy a nice long screw?

Coupling - Decoupling pt 1

So, I thought I'd start looking a coupling and de-coupling things on the Lenco. I think I've made my mind up and decided that I will probably go down the route of the Jolyon bearing, maybe (funds permitting) before the end of the year. This bearing is not only cheaper than most it also offers many similar characteristics to other bearings and this one can be decoupled very easily from the '75 top plate. More importantly for me is the fact it's been used by lots of LH members and there have been no negative feedbacks and lots of positive feedback. I decided against the PTP audio bearing as I didn't really want to spend the money and it has quite small amounts of feedback compared the jolyon bearing. The tonearm really needs decoupling from the top plate and that's probably going to be a 2017 tweek. The top plate needs coupling to the plinth. Now, Jean Nantais over at http://www.idler-wheel-drive.com/ has some extremely good advice wih regards top plate coupling and his advice mirrors general Lenco wisdon in that the top plate needs to be coupled to the plinth as solidily as possible. Lenco users can usually do this in several ways. The standard way is simply to really on the 4 mounting bolts that come with the top plate. The second option is to cut the top plate down into the "pan" configuration which certainly reduces excess top plate whilst maximises surface area to which the top plate can be coupled to the plinth this can be additionally bolted down with large wood screws and wide diameter washers. The third and final option is the PTP which maximally minimises the top plate whilst maximally increasing potential coupling surface area to the plinth and can be bolted down. The PTP is costly and for now I have decided against the PTP audio products. This for me has to remain a fun project and I quite like the idea of being frugal for once in the pursuit of maximum audio return. I have also decided against the "pan" and PTP options as I dont really want the wait or expense of a new plinth build. So I have decided to try and maximally couple the top plate to the plinth with a load of very long screws and wide washers. I need to look under the plinths in the base of the top plate for spare screw holes where I can apply said wood screw and washer. The idea of the very long wood screw is quite ingenious as they act as vibration sinks into the base of the plinth, the longer the screw the further into the plinth it sinks vibration. This is a concept practiced by Jean Nantais on his reference Lenco's. I have seen some really stupid Lenco builds with hundreds of screws bolted into the top plate, well, would this not make the top plate like a swiss cheese and compromise the integrity of the top plate? I could decouple the motor but this looks like an extremely complex mod and at this moment in time is something that only a few have done and there is very little positive feedback on this. So, my lenco should before too long have the new jolyon bearing which will be decoupled and hopefully a more solidily coupled top plate and then at some point a decoupled tonearm.

Fancy a nice long screw? :bonk:

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The feet of the deck are already couple via sorbothane to the troller that I use to house the '75. You might be able to see this on the picture above right in the form of a black disc sitting under the plinths foot.


NSC - Pt 3 (I think!!)

In a nut shell the NSC has given the Lenco better platter speed stability and vibration has been reduced. I'm not going to write a whole review on my findings because I'm still learning about it!! I will say this. The Lenco has been transformed it's a deck which can now play any genre of music to a very high level. The bottle neck in the system is the Shure M55E cartridge. The soundstage is very wide, cohesive, 3D, backgrounds are very black, vocals on well recorded vinyl very life like. Instruments have plenty of definition, space, and timbre. The soundstage can be easily dissected and each intruments can be individually followed with geat detail. In short a massive improvement and it brought all the benefits that I assumed it would. Every Lenco owner should try and hear one and if possible buy one.

Kai,


Not sure how the Lenco motor will handle significant undervoltage, but I think chances are at some point lowering the voltage will start to cause more vibration again, at least that was my experience with the Dual motor. If you have a means of checking for that, finding the points where vibration starts to increase and aiming for middle would be a good starting point I think. Say you can't really tell a difference between 200-220, but at 225 you start to notice an increase and likewise with 195, in that case 210V would be right in the middle.

One way to try would be putting something like a small plastic box on the top plate and lowering the stylus on it with the platter spinning and then play around with the voltage. It's not exactly like when playing a record, but might give you an idea what could come through.


This experiment is probably best done with a coin on top of the platter without any platter mats. I guess the less it jumps around/vibrates the better vibration supression. Incidently a 50Hz Lenco motor will stall and excessively vibrate with too little voltage going through it.

Bottle Neck pt 1

The Shure M55E cartridge has been a revelation but I realise it's holding the deck back. I've decided that I want to maximise my kit whilst not spending much money so I've decided to put my Lentek headamp back into service and look for a cart which is compatible with the Lentek and Alphason arm. The Alphason arm was chosen due to it's giant killing nature and is in with the ethos of this Lenco build, "maximal audio return for minimal finanicial outlay". I'm currently on the hunt for something new to try and I'm open to offers with regards new cartridge brands that I haven't tried before. I'm also more than happy for the Shure to continue and boogie whilst something crops up.


18273

So, lots still to do. Until the next update.... :wave:

[CornishPasty]

Can I offer a few thoughts and observations based on my own experiences?
I like your idea of using long screws. I can see the logic in that Andrew.
I think Jolly's bearing is the best choice you could make. He's a sound engineer, he turns out good honest stuff and he's there for backup if you need him.
The motor is a hysteresis type. It's inefficient in comparison to a similar size induction motor but its benefits are quiet running and supposedly a lack of vibration. From experience the motor works best at somewhere near it's working voltage of 220/110 volts depending on how you connect the coils. If you go much lower the motor loses power and the deck loses the idler drive punch, the reason we like these decks so much in the first place. I prefer series connection for 220 volts which keeps the current draw that much lower, half of what it would be at 110 volts.
I can't comment on decoupling the platter bearing but I'd be interested in your results if you do decide to do that. I have some different ideas and I'll be happy to post the results when I've finished my next build.
I sold a nice Leak Lenco to a friend a while ago. It's all bog standard apart from a suitably modified and rewired GL tonearm and GL78 mat. He was using a Shure M55e cartridge with Jico elliptical stylus and it all sounded quite nice if a little bass heavy. Last weekend I substituted the Shure for my Ortofon 2M Red. We are both happy it's a good step up in SQ. Unfortunately a Jico SAS stylus isn't go to happen but I did briefly try the deck with my AT440MLb. I paid 105 quid for this cartridge a couple of months and if you get the loading right you'll need to spend some serious wedge to better it. This is a cracking cartridge imo and heartily recommended. To my ears it comes very close to a 2M Black but you must get the loading right or you'll not properly hear what this cartridge can do.
I'll leave it there for the moment, suffice to say I've enjoyed your posts so far Andrew. I'd gone off the Lenco a bit but you've given me a lot of food for though, enough for me to start another build. Thanks.

[brian2957]

Ah... As I've been nightshift the last few nights ( and half asleep ) I had to read your post a couple of times Andy . Yes the idea with the long screws will probably work . Would you consider drilling extra holes to put extra screws in perhaps one nearest each corner but without interfering with the platter . ?
With regards to vibration isolation it may be worth looking at this http://www.sounddampedsteel.com/hifi.html

[Wakefield Turntables]

Can I offer a few thoughts and observations based on my own experiences?
I like your idea of using long screws. I can see the logic in that Andrew.
I think Jolly's bearing is the best choice you could make. He's a sound engineer, he turns out good honest stuff and he's there for backup if you need him.
The motor is a hysteresis type. It's inefficient in comparison to a similar size induction motor but its benefits are quiet running and supposedly a lack of vibration. From experience the motor works best at somewhere near it's working voltage of 220/110 volts depending on how you connect the coils. If you go much lower the motor loses power and the deck loses the idler drive punch, the reason we like these decks so much in the first place. I prefer series connection for 220 volts which keeps the current draw that much lower, half of what it would be at 110 volts.
I can't comment on decoupling the platter bearing but I'd be interested in your results if you do decide to do that. I have some different ideas and I'll be happy to post the results when I've finished my next build.
I sold a nice Leak Lenco to a friend a while ago. It's all bog standard apart from a suitably modified and rewired GL tonearm and GL78 mat. He was using a Shure M55e cartridge with Jico elliptical stylus and it all sounded quite nice if a little bass heavy. Last weekend I substituted the Shure for my Ortofon 2M Red. We are both happy it's a good step up in SQ. Unfortunately a Jico SAS stylus isn't go to happen but I did briefly try the deck with my AT440MLb. I paid 105 quid for this cartridge a couple of months and if you get the loading right you'll need to spend some serious wedge to better it. This is a cracking cartridge imo and heartily recommended. To my ears it comes very close to a 2M Black but you must get the loading right or you'll not properly hear what this cartridge can do.
I'll leave it there for the moment, suffice to say I've enjoyed your posts so far Andrew. I'd gone off the Lenco a bit but you've given me a lot of food for though, enough for me to start another build. Thanks.

Ralph, thanks for the detailed reply. Can you send me a PM with some of the ideas that you have for you Lenco? :eyebrows: With regards the cart selection I've been looking at Denon 103's and may just have to get my very rare 103M out and give it a whirl. I've tried AT MC carts in the past and didn't really like what I heard altough I appreciate you've suggested a MM cart. I'll have to write up some of my findings with regards the 103M. I've decided to keep the voltage at 210 as I can't seem to notice any difference bewteen 200 and 210 this way I'm happy that I've reduced vibration by some and that the voltage is nearer to the motors desigend 220V. It's to hear your getting back into your Lenco's and many thanks for the kind remarks.




Ah... As I've been nightshift the last few nights ( and half asleep ) I had to read your post a couple of times Andy . Yes the idea with the long screws will probably work . Would you consider drilling extra holes to put extra screws in perhaps one nearest each corner but without interfering with the platter . ?
With regards to vibration isolation it may be worth looking at this http://www.sounddampedsteel.com/hifi.html

Brian, I don't think I'd like to add any more holes into the top plate altough the deck would probably benefit from a few more. The next experiment is probably going to be with the head amp and the Denon 103M cartridge. :eyebrows: I've also sent you a PM.

[Jimbo]

Just an observation on the NEO JICO SAS. From what I have been reading JICO have now moved from sapphire to Ruby cantilever in replacing the Boron. Stylus diamond profile the same. As I have mentioned before reports on sapphire vs boron in the cantilever suggest they do not impact on SQ. Not sure about Ruby but I think if it is true they are moving to this I don't think subsequently it will be a problem.

Many folk around the world/ net are scouring information for reviews on the new JICO SAS stylus as so few have been bought and evaluated,however from the odd review I have read it appears the NEO JICO SAS is as good as previous product. If as you mention the M55e cartridge is a bottleneck I think the SAS stylus will eliminate this. Although the M55 is a great cartridge the SAS takes it to another level competing with the very best MM cartridges out there.

Like the idea Andy of making a very secure long screw fixing with the top plate and plinth but would a long bolt work better?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Back to MC's, I'm afraid.

I've always said this project is a frugal build and I'm a very firm believer in using up what you've already got. So out cartridge rack and from under my 301 come the Lentek headmap (Nick Gorham modded) and my hens teeth rare Denon 103M. I've not even set the Denon 103M up or added some of the usual gubbins like additional head shell mass or a spacer and I'm already very impressed by what's coming through the ATC speakers. The Shure has been a revelation and my M55E is certainly not going anywhere. So, I was thinking of spending £100-200 on a new cart so I guess some of this spend can go on a few goodies for the 103M. Looks like it's going to be more tone-arm geometry fun over the next few weeks. Now, I'm off onto eBay to get a spacer and 3g headshell mass jobbie.

The little Lentek tucked away.

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The Denon 103M rare but a beauty.

18288


NSC - Pt 3

I'm afraid this is the last little bit for the NSC I think I've said all I need to say in the other updates. Suffice to say the NSC has a slightly nicer power lead in that I managed to find an off-cut of my favourite belden screen cable and a nice silver IEC and plug, all spares so no spend. Unfortunately the cable is only about 75cm long but hey-ho it didn't cost anything. I'm not really a fan of power cables and can't really say if I notice a difference but I'm happier in my mind that the PSU cable now screened.

Until next update. :wave:

[brian2957]

Interesting Andy . I can see your point regarding drilling more holes into the GL75 . The problem is that you won't know until you've tried it and then it will be too late if it doesn't work .
I certainly won't be taking this turntable as far as you have and will probably follow James advice and go for the Jico SAS when funds are available .
Your work however , will probably save some people ( like me ) from making costly mistakes in the future .

[CornishPasty]

That's a good point raised by Jim re using a long bolt instead of a long screw. I've had a good long think about this and come to the conclusion that plinth construction will need to be considered first. For instance a long fully threaded screw will short circuit the layers in a birch ply plinth whereas a long bolt and nut will only connect the top and bottom layer provided the hole has some clearance. If you believe that a layered plinth has some CLD properties then you will only want to fix into the top layer. A solid hardwood plinth on the other hand would present no such problems and I see no issues using either method. As ever some experimentation may be required.

I'll PM you in due course Andy.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight update - Quite a few bits really

Firstly some replies.


Interesting Andy . I can see your point regarding drilling more holes into the GL75 . The problem is that you won't know until you've tried it and then it will be too late if it doesn't work .
I certainly won't be taking this turntable as far as you have and will probably follow James advice and go for the Jico SAS when funds are available .
Your work however , will probably save some people ( like me ) from making costly mistakes in the future .

Brian, I only went down the road of using the Denon 103M because I bought it ages ago and don't use it so I couldn't see the point of it collecting dust and the same thinking went with the Lentek head amp. I'd have to spend at least £200 to get the best JICO stylus once you've included the crappy exchange rate, rip off postage and rip of import duties it dosen't sound such a good upgrade. So, the £200 is going to get invested into a Jolyon bearing. Your experiments with your own bearing and your advice have proven to me that sonic gains can be quite considerable once employed ;).



That's a good point raised by Jim re using a long bolt instead of a long screw. I've had a good long think about this and come to the conclusion that plinth construction will need to be considered first. For instance a long fully threaded screw will short circuit the layers in a birch ply plinth whereas a long bolt and nut will only connect the top and bottom layer provided the hole has some clearance. If you believe that a layered plinth has some CLD properties then you will only want to fix into the top layer. A solid hardwood plinth on the other hand would present no such problems and I see no issues using either method. As ever some experimentation may be required. I'll PM you in due course Andy.

Ralph, my own personal '75 follows the principle you have outlined. I have four m3 threaded bolts attached to the top plate (one in each corner) and they allow me to bolt the top plate to the plinth with a decently wide washer. I like to use wing nuts as I think this allows me to easily tighten the nut maximally. CLD plinths could be the way forward in future builds but certainly not with this one.

Now some more thoughts....

Bottle Neck pt 2

So, the old Denon 103M + Lentek head amp have been pressed back into service and boy you can tell the difference. This combo adds extra tightness to the soundstage things appear crisply and the soundstage now has an added level of PraT that the old Shure + JICO couldn't quite manage. I love the M55E to bits and I think it's a criminally underrated cartridge mine is staying in my collection, sorry guys. The denon and Lentek just add more of what the shure couldn't provide and I've not even optimised the cartridge/tonearm alignment yet. The bottleneck for the time being at least has been removed and the deck just seems to transcribe music with even more ease and so far dosen't seem phased with any genre of music. I have ordered a 3g headshell weight and an Mpingo spacer for vibration supression.

Coupling - Decoupling pt 2

I've had some more thoughts on this subject and think that with some careful thinking and clever spending can probably make the deck just as insert to vibration as a PTP user. Firstly I lifted the lid yesterday and assessed the best places for my long screws and realised that I could only realistically sink a couple of screws into the plinth I could add more but this would means modding the top plate and having to mod the okinth by adding additional pieces of birch ply under plinth, so this has put me off the idea of sinking wood screws into the plinth. Currently the top plate is coupled to the plinth with 4 M3 threads attached to the top plate (one each corner) and then bolted into place under the plinth. They act like a sink and dump vibration into fresh air and not back into the plinth. The problem is do they get rid of enough vibration to stop degradation of the decks performance? Well, I can't answer that one and for that matter neither can anyone else or we would all be employing to same technique to maximally reduce vibration into the plinth. I then realised I'm decoupling the bearing so it won't really matter that much if I don't sink any woodscrews into the plinth to try and eliminate vibration. The platters should theorectically not pick up any vibration from the motor or the top plate if I decouple the bearing. The bearing however will be attached to a plate that fixes to the plinth so that it can be decoupled and this may transmit some motor vibration that may stray into the plinth and work its way up the decoupled bearing and into the platter but hopefully will be markedly less than the standard coupled bearing. An additional benefit of decoupling the plinth is the loss of an additional six components that can transmit vibration into the top plate mainly the bearings three holding nuts and bolts. The next area of consideration is the tonearm. Ideally it would be decoupled completely on its own pod or coupled directly to the plinth. Currently the tonearm is coupled to the top plate which is not the best solution so we have to work on some fixes for this. Firstly I intend to improve coupling of the 103M by using an Mpingo spacer this is pretty dense and I've used it before to good effect on my 1210. Secondly I can add some dampening washers to the undersider of the Alphason's tonearm nuts as they couple the tonearm to the top plate. Thirdly I could also add x3 platter rings which would be bi-functional by adding a little additional dampening to the top platter and cosmetically improving its appearence. Fourthly I could partly decouple the tonearm from the top plate by using x3 sorbothane (or something similar) washers this adds a couple of MM to the tonearm pillar height but markedly reduces the surface area to which top plate vibrations could enter the tonearm. Further improvements could be achieved with changes to the plinth feet and this could be via more sorbothane or completely changing the feet into something with sprung suspension and ball bearing seating........ this is yet another area of research. :doh:

Lowering the ride Pt 1

Running double platters is problematic in that it can render a lot of tonearm defunct. This is not the case with the Alphason altough I have to admit its nearly as high as it can go. I'm now looking at ways to try and gain and extra few MM's so I can lower the tonearm and make sure the cartridge are sitting parallel to vinyl with several MM's to spare rather than a sheet of paper :lol:. Decoupling the bearing should allow me to lower the platter by at least 3mm which sould prove to be very useful in optimal cartridge setup. I can see that this might be a topic to requires further research, we shall see.

So, lately I have talked myself out of spending probably £4-500 on the PTP audio products, and maybe £1-200 on a new cartridge / stylus. I can see the bearing coming before the end of the year. I really want to dismantle to whole deck and then reassemble but this time with maximal tonearm decoupling and vibration control strategies utilised. I want the platters dampened a little further and lowered, additionally I want the tonearm geometery and cartridge alignment perfect. Ideally all of this will be done before Xmas so I can have a few days listening to the deck. Hopefully this will put this deck on par with PTP variants. Next year I want to pay some close attention to the idler spring.

As always until the next update... :wave:

[brian2957]

Yes , I agree with your choice of the Jolyon bearing upgrade . My gut feeling , particularly after reading about it on the net and working on the GL75 myself , is that it may provide you with a nice improvement in all areas of SQ . This should be a fundamental ( structural ) , rather than a peripheral upgrade , such as cartridges and the like , so improvements should be across the board .

What are platter rings mate ?

Your quest for elimination of vibration in your turntable has grown arms and legs Andy and left me way behind . I think that I would have to have a replinthed GL75 sitting in front of me to fully understand what you're saying , and I think that if I buy another GL75 I would have to follow your path step by step lest I got completely lost as there's so much in your posts .

With the idler spring you're getting into territory where change could indeed provide another fundamental upgrade to the SQ of the GL75 and I will be happy to experiment with you in this area . I'll be keeping my eye on this one as it interests me greatly .

Thanks again for providing us with your thoughts in detail regarding the GL75 upgrades :)

[CornishPasty]

There's a lot to think about there Andrew. Anyway a few things come to mind. Who knows if a layered birch ply plinth has any CLD properties? I'm not convinced one way or the other so the screws or bolts thing depends on your own (or anyone else's) experimentation. When I built my second plinth I bolted the 75 pan to the first layer using bolts put in from the ply side and nuts and washers in the pan. I can't say it sounded any better than my previous build where the pan was simply screwed straight into the ply with two inch wood screws. I have built another plinth using 4 inch slats layered in both directions and glued with a silicone based adhesive. I thought that was a great sounding plinth but I didn't use a 75 in that build, I used a modified 72 chassis which has no pan so I don't feel it fair to make any comparison.
I've tried decoupled bearings and arms and I found that putting both the bearing and arm directly on the plinth and decoupling the chassis which supports only the motor, idler and speed change to work well. I'll fill you in on the details via PM when I can get to my other mac.
I've heard only two PTP Lencos and I didn't like either so that's an avenue I don't need to persue.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes , I agree with your choice of the Jolyon bearing upgrade . My gut feeling , particularly after reading about it on the net and working on the GL75 myself , is that it may provide you with a nice improvement in all areas of SQ . This should be a fundamental ( structural ) , rather than a peripheral upgrade , such as cartridges and the like , so improvements should be across the board .

What are platter rings mate ?

Your quest for elimination of vibration in your turntable has grown arms and legs Andy and left me way behind . I think that I would have to have a replinthed GL75 sitting in front of me to fully understand what you're saying , and I think that if I buy another GL75 I would have to follow your path step by step lest I got completely lost as there's so much in your posts .

With the idler spring you're getting into territory where change could indeed provide another fundamental upgrade to the SQ of the GL75 and I will be happy to experiment with you in this area . I'll be keeping my eye on this one as it interests me greatly .

Thanks again for providing us with your thoughts in detail regarding the GL75 upgrades :)


Brian, I quite like the idea of the Jolyon bearing and will be making further enquiries with regards what options he has to offer, wait time, cost etc etc. Platter rings are just a big rubber ring which fits around the perimeter of your platter and they help to eliminate vibration in the platter I use them on my 1210 and 301. I will add some pictures latter, Brian. I still have a stock Lenco sitting around so I will have a look at the design and try to comment on where I think you might be able to eliminate vibration in your deck. Can you post me a couple of pictures of yr deck? I will be adding a comprehensive guide to what I'm doing at some point. The idler Spring will have lost someone it's function after 40 years usage, I really need to do my research with this one and figure out the best way forward. This is a. 2017 tweak.


There's a lot to think about there Andrew. Anyway a few things come to mind. Who knows if a layered birch ply plinth has any CLD properties? I'm not convinced one way or the other so the screws or bolts thing depends on your own (or anyone else's) experimentation. When I built my second plinth I bolted the 75 pan to the first layer using bolts put in from the ply side and nuts and washers in the pan. I can't say it sounded any better than my previous build where the pan was simply screwed straight into the ply with two inch wood screws. I have built another plinth using 4 inch slats layered in both directions and glued with a silicone based adhesive. I thought that was a great sounding plinth but I didn't use a 75 in that build, I used a modified 72 chassis which has no pan so I don't feel it fair to make any comparison.
I've tried decoupled bearings and arms and I found that putting both the bearing and arm directly on the plinth and decoupling the chassis which supports only the motor, idler and speed change to work well. I'll fill you in on the details via PM when I can get to my other mac.
I've heard only two PTP Lencos and I didn't like either so that's an avenue I don't need to persue.


Ralph, I think it's the old adage of trusting your ears when it comes to plinth composition. I'm glad to hear your comments regarding the pan configuration and indeed your honesty, it's probably an area that I would have gone done. Your comments regarding decoupling and coupling through up some interesting conundrums :doh:. PTP from an engineering point of view sounds brilliantly simple and follows a lot of what I would consider sound principles for modding a Lenco but as always it's a case of trusting your ears.

[brian2957]

This is my GL75 Andy . I have replaced the idler shaft which was ( as I suspected ) slightly bent . This also came with a 5 hole idler wheel which has a slightly more substantial rubber tyre on it .

I have also fitted the Jolyon bearing collar which is very nicely machined and did , in my opinion , provide me with a subtle upgrade .

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010753_zpsnl6lmjgb.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010753_zpsnl6lmjgb.jpg.html)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010778_zpsl8llimc4.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010778_zpsl8llimc4.jpg.html)

I did have a problem with the idler spring which was causing vibration , especially on start up . I had to remove it and cut a little bit off the length . This is something I didn't particularly want t do but was forced to in the absence of a replacement .
I had previously replaced the spring with a rubber band and the noise was eliminated . However , I don't view this as a permanent solution .

[struth]

Looking nice Brian. Need to add it to your sig mate

[brian2957]

Morning mate , yes it's in pretty good nick Grant . Sounds excellent too :)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg.html)

[CornishPasty]

That's a nice turntable Brian. I don't think you need worry about cutting the idler spring as long as you don't cut too much off. A rubber band makes a good substitute and it's quiet too though it won't last forty years!

[brian2957]

Hah ! agreed Ralph . I searched for ones which were approximately the right length and bought a pack of 100 :lol:

[Jimbo]

Morning mate , yes it's in pretty good nick Grant . Sounds excellent too :)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg.html)

Superb Brian, like the clear lid. Underneath looks immaculate too!:thumbsup:

[brian2957]

Cheers James , it's all in very good condition and I'm very happy with it :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

The idler spring is an extremely key component in making sure the idler wheel applies the correct force to the platter and the motor spindle. I've been talking to an engineer friend who pointed out a few things such as the spring length, the tensile nature of the spring, recoil energy stored in the spring, the number of coils in the spring and a whole other can of variables which need to be taken into consideration when messing around replacing the spring. We need to find out how much force is needed in the spring to keep the idler optimally loaded onto the motor spindle. So, I shall be doing some experiments with a strain gauge to try and measure the number of gram's or Newtons needed. Should make for some fun tinkering (NOT)! I can't imagine that a 42 year old spring is still going to be in perfect condition and must have warped / drifted a little.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Lovely Lenco incidently Brian.

[struth]

Morning mate , yes it's in pretty good nick Grant . Sounds excellent too :)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010768_zps1utmibxl.jpg.html)

Afternoon now lol. Thats very pretty Brian especially with the clear lid. Much improved to the old smoked ones for me.

As for springs, they will stretch over time so removing a little bit wont cause any probs. It wont be too an exact pressure needed.

[brian2957]

Thanks guys , this turntable is a joy to listen to and to use :)

Andy , as I don't have the equipment ( strain guage ) to measure the spring tension this would have been guesswork . TBH because of the age of the spring and the potential for loss of strength over a period of 40 years may make it very difficult to measure accurately anyway . I agree , though that it is important to get this right as it can make or break the GL75 .
I'll be watching this one with interest .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - How full's your glass ? Half empty or half full?

Well the Denon 103M is a fantastic cartridge but it has brought it's problems to the '75 and so I will have to start modding the platter and tonearm pillar height which rather neatly means that I have to dismantle the deck (completely) and rebuild. It also means that I can do a few little jobs that I have been meaning to do like dismantle the idler arm, clean the cartridge tags and RCA's on the tonearm, additionally clean the pins on the 103 and at the same time I can start to mod the deck again with some the coupling and decoupling mods I talked about a couple of nights ago. I like to completely get rid of the on/off switch, the flicker switch on/off switch and the idler arm park rod and I think the best way to do this would be to mod the idler spring so that the wheel was in continual contact with the motor spindle, oh, controvesy dot com. This declutters the top plate even further and removes several screws and looks linkages that resonate when the top plinth resonates. The Lenco can simply be swicthed on/off from the NSC switch. I've also made contact with the chap who builds the Jolyon bearing and placed an order I''l post more details when I recieve them. Dismantling the '75 means that I can now incorperate all the mods that I've discussed over the last few weeks. :eek:. So the Lenco is going to be out of action for a while but I can still write the occasional update and ideas about modding the '75.

So until next time.. :wave:

[brian2957]

Mmm.. Not sure about the idler wheel being in constant contact with the motor shaft . You may be risking an indentation in the rubber of the wheel if the turntable isn't used for a period of time .

I'm hoping to apply some of your anti vibration mods Andy , however , this GL75 will stay complete and any mods must be covert and easily removed to return the turntable to original condition .

As I've stated before , I will probably buy another when funds allow and follow your path step by step as I think you're going in the right direction to creating something a bit special .

I think the Jolyon bearing is definitely the way to go if you want to maximise the performance of the GL75 and I look forward to your thoughts on this as it may be my next upgrade . Did Jolyon ask for the shaft from your original bearing Andy ?

[DSJR]

These idlers have a hard tyre, but radiused quite severely on the drive contact area. They DO chip and take dents, so please consider keeping the retract assembly intact as this really isn't an issue. May I also suggest as a non-engineer that when the idler is brought into contact with the motor, the 'kick' on the platter, if clean, is enough to circumvent the idler spring, as I think the dynamics of the whole assembly when running only mean this spring is there to enable and maintain initial contact. OK, I'm not an engineer, but that's how it appears to me when the deck is running.

Denon 103? Has the internal tonearm wiring been replaced? I know this arm is slagged off universally and my defence of it is well catalogued here and elsewhere, but I'm not sure I'd use any low output MC type in this arm except possibly a DL110 high output (I once used a 10X IV in a GL75 back in the days when it cost the same as the DL110...).

[Arkless Electronics]

Tonights update - How full's your glass ? Half empty or half full?

Well the Denon 103M is a fantastic cartridge but it has brought it's problems to the '75 and so I will have to start modding the platter and tonearm pillar height which rather neatly means that I have to dismantle the deck (completely) and rebuild. It also means that I can do a few little jobs that I have been meaning to do like dismantle the idler arm, clean the cartridge tags and RCA's on the tonearm, additionally clean the pins on the 103 and at the same time I can start to mod the deck again with some the coupling and decoupling mods I talked about a couple of nights ago. I like to completely get rid of the on/off switch, the flicker switch on/off switch and the idler arm park rod and I think the best way to do this would be to mod the idler spring so that the wheel was in continual contact with the motor spindle, oh, controvesy dot com. This declutters the top plate even further and removes several screws and looks linkages that resonate when the top plinth resonates. The Lenco can simply be swicthed on/off from the NSC switch. I've also made contact with the chap who builds the Jolyon bearing and placed an order I''l post more details when I recieve them. Dismantling the '75 means that I can now incorperate all the mods that I've discussed over the last few weeks. :eek:. So the Lenco is going to be out of action for a while but I can still write the occasional update and ideas about modding the '75.

So until next time.. :wave:

Whilst you will probably get away with it, I wouldn't recommend this.

[CornishPasty]

I suggested the 16 rpm mod to avoid damage to the idler wheel. Here's a pic to show how it's done and also my idler spring mod which puts the same pull on the idler irrespective of position. Apologies for the rotated pic but my picture hosting always does this with pics from my iPhone.

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/11/73/38/69/img_1913.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1570)

[Wakefield Turntables]

HAH my suggestions have stirred up a real hornets nest of replies, EXCELLENT! Certainly lots of food for thought and you can always be sure that if you speak some shit (that's me) and suggest something that's wrong you'll be corrected by people that have more knowledge than yourself (that's you lot), again, EXCELLENT. :hifives:

[Marra]

I'd definately recommend an on/off switch on the deck itself and not forgetting to fit a capacitor across the switch so as to avoid switching thumps through your speakers. This also allows the NSC to warm up and stabilise before using the deck.

[CornishPasty]

I'd definately recommend an on/off switch on the deck itself and not forgetting to fit a capacitor across the switch so as to avoid switching thumps through your speakers. This also allows the NSC to warm up and stabilise before using the deck.

Yes that's a good recommendation. If like the micro switch from the GL78 as it's easy to refit to a modified deck but I prefer an on/off switch which I usually install in the bottom left hand corner below the speed control.

And who turned my picture clockwise? Thanks :thumbsup:

[struth]

I suggested the 16 rpm mod to avoid damage to the idler wheel. Here's a pic to show how it's done and also my idler spring mod which puts the same pull on the idler irrespective of position. Apologies for the rotated pic but my picture hosting always does this with pics from my iPhone.

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/11/73/38/69/img_1913.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1570)

try cropping them to 4:3 before sending to host. Its coz the phone is widescreen I think

[brian2957]

HAH my suggestions have stirred up a real hornets nest of replies, EXCELLENT! Certainly lots of food for thought and you can always be sure that if you speak some shit (that's me) and suggest something that's wrong you'll be corrected by people that have more knowledge than yourself (that's you lot), again, EXCELLENT. :hifives:

Hah ! I thought you'd been at the whisky Andy :D

[brian2957]

Mine was making a wierd kind of grinding noise Dave , on start up and sometimes during play . In the absence of anything else suitable I substituted the spring with a rubber band of suitable dimensions and the noise disappeared . It hasn't came back since I cropped the spring slightly .

[CornishPasty]

Grant, thanks. I took that pic with my phone upright ie narrow and they are correct in my photos on the computer. They're look correct on the hosting site to but as soon as they're uploaded they go anticlockwise. It's only done that since the site was revamped and I haven't used it for a while. I wouldn't have a clue how to resize them ( I'm an analogue rather than digital chap) but I'll uploading some from my camera tomorrow to see if it does the same.

[struth]

site hasnt been done yet, so wont be that.

[CornishPasty]

When I wrote revamped I was on about the picture hosting site I use.

[Wakefield Turntables]

These idlers have a hard tyre, but radiused quite severely on the drive contact area. They DO chip and take dents, so please consider keeping the retract assembly intact as this really isn't an issue. May I also suggest as a non-engineer that when the idler is brought into contact with the motor, the 'kick' on the platter, if clean, is enough to circumvent the idler spring, as I think the dynamics of the whole assembly when running only mean this spring is there to enable and maintain initial contact. OK, I'm not an engineer, but that's how it appears to me when the deck is running.

Denon 103? Has the internal tonearm wiring been replaced? I know this arm is slagged off universally and my defence of it is well catalogued here and elsewhere, but I'm not sure I'd use any low output MC type in this arm except possibly a DL110 high output (I once used a 10X IV in a GL75 back in the days when it cost the same as the DL110...).

David, thanks for the comments re: the idler wheel. Now your comments with regards the 103 and the tonearm have surprised me a little. I've trawled the net and not been able to find a decent opinion as to why I shouldn't use the 103M on the Alphason. Additionally, what has re-wiring got to do with the tonearm, things are sounding perfectly fine without spending a couple hundred quid on a rewire. Finally, the Alphason HR100S is widely known as one of the best tonearms devised some where on the net has it been "universally" slagged off?


I'd definately recommend an on/off switch on the deck itself and not forgetting to fit a capacitor across the switch so as to avoid switching thumps through your speakers. This also allows the NSC to warm up and stabilise before using the deck.

This is just something I've been thinking about which might not make it back into the rebuild.


Yes that's a good recommendation. If like the micro switch from the GL78 as it's easy to refit to a modified deck but I prefer an on/off switch which I usually install in the bottom left hand corner below the speed control.


[QUOTE=brian2957;799868]Hah ! I thought you'd been at the whisky Andy :D

Not touched a drop in approx 7 weeks. :)

[karma67]

i think dave thinks your using the standard arm off the lenco.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - More waffle.

The deck is now in a state of bits ready for a whole heap of repairs, fixes, mods and upgrades. There are several things which have never really worked with the deck such as the anti-bias weight on the Alphason, one of the screw threads is slightly too long and affects one of the feet. The tonearm could have done with better screws to fix it to the top plate. The Denon 103M could do with its pins polishing, the tonearm lead could do with tidying up. Lots of little things that when added up cause me a great deal of irritation. I have to tell myself that this deck is still a WIP just to keep my sanity.

The Jolyon bearing has now been ordered which means I need to dig out some old steel from the garage to be modded and re-fashioned as a support. I have a six week wait for the bearing so this should hopefully allow me to make all the mods needed to fetch the deck upto speed just before Xmas. I'd like the '75 to be finished so I can have a few weeks listening and enjoying the fruits of my labours (hopefully). I dont really have much more to discuss tonight so I'm signing off early to spend some time on the deck. I hope to take lots of photo's detailing what I've done.

Until next time... :wave:

[CornishPasty]

Dave was indeed referring to the Lenco arm. With a bit of fettling this arm will easily accommodate an AT33PTG. I modified a headshell, well a few actually to take the DL103 which it also did quite well. There's also no reason why the Alphason won't work with the DL103 either.

[brian2957]

Can you please tell us in more detail how you modified the headshell Ralph .

[CornishPasty]

Can you please tell us in more detail how you modified the headshell Ralph .

Be happy to Brian. I remove the slider and screw from the Lenco headshell and then I Araldite a piece of 3mm thick aluminium cut to shape inside the headshell. 3mm brings the cartridge fixing height to the same as the sled. I can tailor the weight by either making the alumium piece longer or going up to 4mm thickness which I haven't found necessary yet. Then I mill slots into the headshell that simply follow the outside edge of the headshell. I had no access to a milling machine when I made the last one for myself so I just drilled a series of holes and filed them through. Not quite as tidy but good enough for me. I've just put my camera on charge so I'll bung a couple of pics on later. I also have the before and after weights written down somewhere so when I find them I'll post them too.

[brian2957]

That looks interesting Ralph . I would appreciate it if you could post those pictures .

[CornishPasty]

Ok Brian, I've uploaded a couple of pics. Just click on the thumbnail and it'll open up.

https://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/73/38/69/th/p1020810.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1565)

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/11/73/38/69/th/p1020811.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1572)

[brian2957]

Thanks Ralph , appreciate this . I may have to buy another headshell and have a go at this .

I've been looking at these as the original headshells don't go for much less on Ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/351569693237?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

and

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thakker-Headshell-fur-Lenco-B-53-B-55-L-72-L-75-L-76-L-78-Silber-/391311738077?hash=item5b1bff44dd:g:EjMAAOSwo0JWOg8 u

[CornishPasty]

Much better to modify an original headshell I reckon Brian. Anyone can just go out and buy something but there's a certain pleasure in doing it yourself. I appreciate that some people don't have the ability or the motivation to do such things but it's great if you can. I'm in the process of trying to get some headshells cnc machined so they look like the original except they will allow azimuth. Unfortunately each one requires the connector from an old headshell. It might not happen yet but I'm hopeful.

[brian2957]

Aye , you are of course correct Ralph . Problem is I'm not sure if I have the skill or the patience to turn out something similar to your modified headshell . I must admit that working on this GL75 has been a pleasure so far though :)

[Jimbo]

Aye , you are of course correct Ralph . Problem is I'm not sure if I have the skill or the patience to turn out something similar to your modified headshell . I must admit that working on this GL75 has been a pleasure so far though :)

Brian are you after another Lenco headshell?

[brian2957]

You have PM James .

[CornishPasty]

Brian, if you want to send me a headshell I'll happily sort it out for you. My mate Mick is back at work so the use of the milling machine looks promising :)

[Jimbo]

You have PM James .

Can you resend Brian, just cleared my inbox

[brian2957]

Done James

[brian2957]

Brian, if you want to send me a headshell I'll happily sort it out for you. My mate Mick is back at work so the use of the milling machine looks promising :)

That's a very generous offer Ralph . You have PM .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - slowly slowy catchy monkey.

I'm a reasonably patient person but I do like to see things progress. The '75 is getting their. So tonight I've been making some custom bits for the passive isolation that I intend to put into place for vibration supression. I've been looking into the theory of springs and how they supress vibration. It's all interesting stuff but time consuming. The list of "bits" which is needed for the '75's next step up the sonic ladder is slowly growing and as usual I have to order bits from all over the world. I managed to get a few bits from the UK but now I've just ordered some stuff from Korea. The Jolyon bearing is definitely a go-er. I've just dismantled my spare bearing and get the spindle packaged and ready for postage of Friday and I've paid so I'm hoping to get the bearing by mid December. I just need to find that spare piece of steel to mount the thing. :doh: I now need to make some sorbothane isolating washers for my mounting threads from the top plate and a niece of set of springs for further vibration supression. I'm taking my time with this one and want to make sure that everything is in place and working first time around. I've also been working on the plinth's feet. I do intend to get some pix sorted at some time but until whenever i next get a chance to update this I have some cartridge tags to clean and polish. :rolleyes:

Until next time....:wave:

[brian2957]

Cheers Andy , looks like these upgrades are going to take a while . I'll be interested to see what is going where and if any of your upgrades can be applied to the stock GL75 . The Jolyon bearing has been on my radar for a while .

[Firebottle]

Ok Brian, I've uploaded a couple of pics. Just click on the thumbnail and it'll open up.

https://i86.servimg.com/u/f86/11/73/38/69/th/p1020810.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1565)

https://i97.servimg.com/u/f97/11/73/38/69/th/p1020811.jpg (https://servimg.com/view/11733869/1572)

That's how they should have made them in the first place I reckon.
I think I'll do the same to my spare headshell (thanks Geoff!).

[walpurgis]

If you're going to do that with the headshell, why not beef it up a bit to reduce the rather 'ringy' character. Cut a thin piece of paxoline exactly the right shape, with similar slots and bond it in place using something like 'Super Crylic' adhesive.

(Oh. And you are welcome Alan :))

[Jimbo]

If you're going to do that with the headshell, why not beef it up a bit to reduce the rather 'ringy' character. Cut a thin piece of paxoline exactly the right shape, with similar slots and bond it in place using something like 'Super Crylic' adhesive.

(Oh. And you are welcome Alan :))

Good idea Geoff, err what's paxonline?

[walpurgis]

Phenolic board/card, similar to Tufnol. Paxolin is resin impregnated paper and Tufnol is impregnated cloth. Circuit boards and tag boards are often made of such materials. They are very stiff and resist vibration pretty well.

See here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Various-Sizes-thickness-of-Paxolin-Bakolite-SRBP-Insulation-Board-/152130003665?var=&hash=item236ba7a2d1:m:mqwgIJbHWhdXdIbkUlyz-WQ

[Jimbo]

Phenolic board/card, similar to Tufnol. Paxolin is resin impregnated paper and Tufnol is impregnated cloth. Circuit boards and tag boards are often made of such materials. They are very stiff and resist vibration pretty well.

See here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Various-Sizes-thickness-of-Paxolin-Bakolite-SRBP-Insulation-Board-/152130003665?var=&hash=item236ba7a2d1:m:mqwgIJbHWhdXdIbkUlyz-WQ

Cheers I may try this.

[walpurgis]

Cheers I may try this.

I'd suggest the 0.8mm thick type.

I have bonded Paxolin to metal using this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121111638319?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

It's great stuff and very handy for all sorts of jobs. Extremely strong. Not an epoxy. It sets pretty quick, so you need to use it promptly.

[YNWaN]

If you use a ceramic ball bearing and a peek thrust pad you must check regularly for wear in the thrust pad because it is only a matter of time until the much harder ball bearing wears through the peek. With stacked platters and a record weight I would expect this wear time to be quite short - perhaps a few weeks.

[Wakefield Turntables]

It's been ok so far Mark. The bearing is going to be replaced again with something of a much higher spec.

[YNWaN]

Fair enough. It partly depends on how thick the peek thrust pad and the diameter of the ball bearing - it's possible the ball bearing will just embed itself (gradually drill into) the peek until the surface area balances the load. This highlights the inherent problem with using very hard materials like sapphire and ceramic for parts of the bearing. If one surface is harder than the other then they will wear unevenly - the more pronounced the difference between the bearing materials the more pronounced the wear will be.

I would be careful of some of the ideas promoted on Lenco Heaven with regard to bearings. They do seem keen on eulogising over some quite questionable designs. For example, when one talks about 'running in' with regard to mechanics you are talking about friction wear - erosion. If the situation exists for this to occur then it takes place in a continual manner - it doesn't just stop when it's convenient. If a bearing needs to run in then once that point has been achieved it will continue to wear until it is worn out.....

[Wakefield Turntables]

Fair enough. It partly depends on how thick the peek thrust pad and the diameter of the ball bearing - it's possible the ball bearing will just embed itself (gradually drill into) the peek until the surface area balances the load. This highlights the inherent problem with using very hard materials like sapphire and ceramic for parts of the bearing. If one surface is harder than the other then they will wear unevenly - the more pronounced the difference between the bearing materials the more pronounced the wear will be.

I would be careful of some of the ideas promoted on Lenco Heaven with regard to bearings. They do seem keen on eulogising over some quite questionable designs. For example, when one talks about 'running in' with regard to mechanics you are talking about friction wear - erosion. If the situation exists for this to occur then it takes place in a continual manner - it doesn't just stop when it's convenient. If a bearing needs to run in then once that point has been achieved it will continue to wear until it is worn out.....

Sagely advice, Mark. Jolyon, the chap who makes the bearings is well versed and respected in engineering principles and the bearing has had universal acceptance. Some of the bearings over on LH recieve next to no appraisal and yet seem to be the best thing since sliced bread and accordingly I avoid those particular ones. I don't believe in "running in" and can appreciate your comments with regards when two surfaces eventually wear out, you would need a coefficient of friction of infinite zero at the two opposing surfaces for infinite life expectancy, so things wear out, pity some folks couldn't appreciate that.

[CornishPasty]

If you're going to do that with the headshell, why not beef it up a bit to reduce the rather 'ringy' character. Cut a thin piece of paxoline exactly the right shape, with similar slots and bond it in place using something like 'Super Crylic' adhesive.

(Oh. And you are welcome Alan :))

I haven't noticed any zinginess with the 3mm aluminium plate bonded into the headshell. The araldite is quite thick too and that may add some damping but I do understand what you're saying.

Andrew, Apologies for taking your thread of course somewhat.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew, Apologies for taking your thread of course somewhat.

No worries old bean.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Planning the journey.

The '75 is now dismantled. The bearing is dismantled and half of it is winging it's way to bath. The top plate has been removed and is ready for some paint touch-up work. The idler arm is dismantled and awaiting the Wer modification kit. The plinth will need modding shortly with a new strut to mount the new bearing. I've decided to take extreme care with vibration isolation and further parts optimisation. I'm looking at lots of tweeks which will hopefully equal a much improved sound. I dont want to spend too much time banging away on the keyboard tonight as I have stuff to do on the Lenco!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Project "The Reference"

I've decided that I'm going to try and devise a Reference level Lenco. This is going to be a culmination of all my knowledge into making the best Lenco that I can produce. That's not to say it's going to be the best Lenco ever but it's going to be "my" reference Lenco. So, to start. My '75 had an annoying problem with the plinth feet in that one of them never sat fully flush to the plinth meaning the '75 was slightly unlevel.

18314

I added 7mm sorbothane but didn't make a very good job of it.

18315

Now it's all been groun down and sits flush to the perimeter of the feet.

18316

Now all feet sit flush to the plinth meaning a level deck and the sorbothane has been neatly ground back.

18319

I decided to upgrade the method that the top plate was coupled to the plinth. The old method relied on 4 115mm M3 screw threads screwed into the top plate and then bolted down with a M3 nut and wing bolt on the underside of the plinth. This is a perfectly accepted method and has proven to be very effective in providing me with many an evening of enjoyable music but it could be bettered. I decided to add futher vibration supression / dissipation by improving the efficieny of the bolting mechanism and introducing several layers of coupling to further help vibration dissipation. Please see part two of tonights post.

[brian2957]

Is that sorbothane sheet you're using Andy ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

The "Reference" Lenco Pt 2

Coupling the top plate to the plinth has been an important consideration in designing this deck build and adding coupling is a key part to try and get this deck sounding better.

The plinth has four screw threads which prove difficult to fully tighten and therefore a compromise between the interface of the top plate and the screw thread occurs this will impinge on resonance transfer from the top plate into the plinth.

18326

A pair of mole grips was utilised to maximally tighten and improve the connection bewteen the screw thread and the top plate.

18327

I originally wanted to add a level of coupling between the top plate and the screw thread. I did try four hard rubber bungs but they did not work due to not compressing enough and then I had a brain wave. I saved the original mounting rubbers from the first day I bought the Lenco.
18329

The deck is now mounted on the original four mounting rubbers. They are in very good condition and compress fantastically well when the top plate is mounted to the plinth.

18328

I also wanted to add the original mounting springs. Lenco must have had these springs specially designed for just such a purpose. They proved a step to far and I simply didnt have the strength in my hands to compress down far enough so I think that I may have to modify the plinth to accept them. Perhaps that's another mod for another day.


18330

Part 3 to follow.

[karma67]

https://youtu.be/BDOg-Aqyidc

[brian2957]

I have these original mounting parts too Andy . If you need any more of them drop me a PM and I'll send them to you .

[Wakefield Turntables]

The "Reference" Lenco Pt 3

To finalise the first version of my attempts at top plate coupling I turned my attention to the mounting nuts and bolts. They were a little wimpy so I decided to upgrade the mounting washer so that it had a wider surface area again this was to simply improve the coupling of the top plate to the plinth and to transmit any resonance from the top plate over a wider surface area into the base of the plinth. I also added a custom made set of 3mm sorbothane washer which sat bewteen the plinth surface and the washer further adding another layer of vibration supression back into the plinth. This picture demonstrates the original mounting washers and the new versions beside them.

18336

I next decided to have a look under the top plate and see where discrete vibration supression could be added. My first port of call was the on/off linkage. This isn't actually a bad piece of engineering. A solid piece of brass houses the on/off switch linkage which is held into place with the single washer and screw, you can't get anything in herw. I'm sure the stiffness of the brass mount will help supress vibration from the top plate and into the on/off linkage If one looks further right in the picture you can see that the Idler parking arm has rather a large gap bewteen it and the on/off linkage switch. I decided this needed to be filled so I produced a very small sorbothane washer (sorry for the bad picture)

18337

18338

18339

The linkage and Idler parking arm and on/off now look like this when they have been mounted.

18341

I have never really been a massive fan of how the on/off switch has been mounted onto the underside of the top plate. The wires from the motor are a direct transmission route for vibration from the motor into the top plate and near the bearing. If I had my way I would completely remove this whole section. I'm yet to see a method that I like but it is VERY high on my list of things to do. I'll slowly and methodically go around the top plate assessing where discrete vibration supression can be utilised.

Until next time (which might be sometime) :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Is that sorbothane sheet you're using Andy ?

Yep, I had some spare off-cuts at work.



https://youtu.be/BDOg-Aqyidc

:lol:, yep it certainly feels like a soap opera building this deck. ;)


I have these original mounting parts too Andy . If you need any more of them drop me a PM and I'll send them to you .

Thanks mate, you might need them yourself if you build another. :eyebrows:


Right I'm off it's me an hour to do tonights post.

[brian2957]

No stone ( or potential source of vibration ) being left unturned Andy :) I doubt anyone has been through a GL75 like this before . Again a treasure trove of information on how to max out this turntable . The results of this experiment will be watched with interest as some can be applied to the original GL75 . I'll be seeking out some sorbothane sheet and making the appropriate parts for mine .

[CornishPasty]

All those open areas under the top plate as in the last pic need filling in either with resin or bonded aluminium plate. This will give the top plate more contact area with the plinth and will also strengthen and dampen that lively top plate. You'll find you won't need to tighten those long bolts within an inch of their lives either as the plate can't flex when the voids are filled in.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ralph, your suggestions make good common sense but is this a mod that you have done yourself and can honestly say has made a big difference? If I was too do another build I'd go down the "pan" route and circumvent any need for filling any spaces and maximising surface area to the plinth. The reason for me anally assessing (I bet that conjures up some rather nasty images :lol:) each component is so that I hopefully negate and dissipate any vibration from the top plate into the plinth. We also have to think about vibration getting into the plinth from the floor / hifi rack etc so I'm comtemplating a sprung based board for the '75 to sit on. I'm doing a little research when time allows into this area.

[CornishPasty]

Andrew, the first two I built had all empty spaces filled in but I used acrylic because that what I had at the time. It simply gave a flat surface to sit on the plinth rather than hollow spaces. I can't say it makes a difference because I've never tried it without. When I started putting decks together for others I read everything I could about the Nantais decks and just followed his example where I could. Then I started using the 69/72 chassis because it didn't have that pan and made things so much easier but I also started splitting the bearing so things changed somewhat and I ended up making my own chassis. I really need to PM you. Apologies but I've been caught up in a lot of things just lately and I do need a couple of hours to sift through stuff. I will PM you though I promise.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The "Reference" Lenco Pt IV - More vibration supression.

The idler arm park got my attention tonight. It's held onto the top plate with a single threaded screw and a nut but is yet another conduit from vibration travelling down the power leads from the motor into the on/off switch. It makes sense to couple the idler arm park when one considers the idler arm park touches the on/off switch and the on/off switch is located approx 1" from the idler arm park nut/bolt. Improving coupling to the idler arm park nut/bolt should reduce vibration getting into the idler arm park itself and hopefully from getting into the idler arm retaining bracket. Whilst these components don't strictly make any contact with each other near the idler arm at the idler arm retaining bracket I still think its a good idea to try and stop any vibration up into that neck of the woods :(. This little mod on it's own probably does nothing but it's the cumulative effects of all the mods where I'm trying to make a difference.

The original idler arm park screw was quite small and needed replacing. I purchased a selection of very small nuts and bolts and some 3mm rubber gromets from Maplins ages ago when I was messing around with my SME 3012. So I added a simple gromet under the bolt head (Picture 1) and then added a gromet to the underside of the bolt along the threaded shaft, I salvaged the original retaining nut and added a little tension with a pair of small mole grips. A very small tweak which improves the coupling of the idler arm park to the top plate.

1836318364

I really must do something with the on/off switch on the underside of the top plate. I think I need to email a fellow AOSer for some help. Details to follow!

As always fellow AOSer's :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt V - On/Off switch solved!

No pix tonight as I'm pretty knackered. Just a few words. I decided to remove the on/off switch from the underside of the Lenco top plate, well it had to come off anyway so tonight was a good a night as any. I decided to have a look in my set of spare Lenco parts to see if i could disect the switch whilst still having a spare sitting around. I managed to find an old switch and opened it up. It's a pretty simple design the on/off switch is simply a rocker switch sitting on a spring when the spring is flipped it creates a electric path with a little metal roller in the switch casing. Two wires come away from the switch which then go into the Lenco motor and a supressor Capacity which stops clicks into your speaker amongst other things. So really all I need to do is get my soldering iron out desolder the old bell wire attached to the on/off switch and replace with something a little better quality and more importantly slightly longer in length. The supressor cap can be left in place. I intend to mount the on/off switch to the front of the underside of the plinth and this way the deck can be switch on very easily whilst a full 90mm worth of birth ply sit between it and the top plate. This solution neatly removes vibration from the top plate but potentially introduces it to the underside of the plinth where the new Jolyon bearing is going to be mounted. So, position of the on/off switch has not been finalised but I may mount the on/off switch on sorbothane to try and supress further vibration into the plinth and the bearing. Ah, decisions, decisions.....The solution to this little problem as a lot easier than I expected. Thanks also go to Jez of Arkless electronics for some helpful advice. Cheers. :cool:

Until next time (And some pix I promise).. :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight Update - The Lenco Reference Pt VI - Getting switched onto the Lenco.

Tonights bit described my final fetish with the on/off switch. I decided that the switch had to be shifted from so close to the bearing or the idler arm it's an invitation to transmit vibration from the motor into the top plate. I decided to play things safe and dig out an old switch from my spare Lenco and I also decided it needed slight modding.

I decided to keep the original and more importantly working switch (the black one) and replace the original wiring on the old switch with something longer which meant I could move the switch some distance from the bearing. I also made a simple sorbothane base so that additional vibration would be absorbed into the sorbothane before going into the plinth.

18382

The next stage was to try and decide where to mount the switch. I initially decided that the front of the plinth would be a good idea but then I realised it looked pretty $#!+ , as you can see.

18383

I then realised that the switch was still quite close to the bearing so I then decided to mount the switch to the left side of the deck behind one of the feet and as you can see the switch is completely hidden when you look at the plinths foot.

1838418385

The underside of the top plate is now looking more optimised and less cluttered.

18386


I have now removed an additional two screws and washers from the underside of the top plate which have potential to rattle and vibrate on the top plate. I suppose I could fill in the holes from where the switch used to be situated and indeed I may do this to stiffen the top plate a little further but that would mean more time spent on repairing the paint work :( we shall see. I'm now in a position where I shall be turning my attention to the idler arm and it's linkages and other gubbins and then I think I've finished with all my isolation work. It looks like the idler arm is to stripped down, rebuilt etc and then I'll be fitting the Wer stability mod to rid my arm of the slight oscillation it suffers.

As always until next time... :wave:

[brian2957]

Are you now operating the switch like a little toggle switch Andy ?

There isn't much left to vibrate now is there :D

I'll be interested to see what your plans are for the idler assembly as I'm not sure there is much there to cause vibration ( or is there :) )

The Werner mod for the idler wheel certainly worked on mine and removed a slight wobble which couldn't have been doing the SQ much good .

Any word on the Jolyon bearing ? This is another mod which is on my radar .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Are you now operating the switch like a little toggle switch Andy ?

There isn't much left to vibrate now is there :D

I'll be interested to see what your plans are for the idler assembly as I'm not sure there is much there to cause vibration ( or is there :) )

The Werner mod for the idler wheel certainly worked on mine and removed a slight wobble which couldn't have been doing the SQ much good .

Any word on the Jolyon bearing ? This is another mod which is on my radar .

The switch is basically a toggle switch but the idea is it switch on the power using the relocated on/off switch and then introduce the idler wheen via the on/off switch on the top plate. I don't need to do this but I have heard that the idler wheel can "kick" if it's left in contact with the motor spindle. I'll be doing some testing to see if this actually happens on my deck. I have seen some vids on Youtube where this pheonoma exists. The idler arm is probably going to be very prone to vibration due to the locking plate for the idler arm being fixed to the top plate. I have mitigated some vibration away from the idler arm by relocating the on/off switch and decoupling the bearing. As you can see I've improved the coupling of the idler arm park. I'll have to have a proper look over the next few days to see if anything further can be done. I'll probably be filling some holes in the top plate to try and improve its stiffness and I'll probably restrip and respray the whole top plate (it's quite easy to do) so that I have a much better finish than my first attempt. I still havent heard anything about the bearing and I'm quite thankful to be honest as I have a little breathing space to get all these little mods sorted. I still have a lot to document. There is still the tonearm and cartridge to think about, I already have a lot of the stuff ordered which means I can crack straight on when the time comes. The idler is coming next so keep tuned.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt VII - Idling my time away.

The idler arm is perhaps one of the single most important components on the '75 so I decided that mine needed some much needed TLC. I have done a full strip, clean, re-oil and re-lube (oo-er). This maintainence work is needed to keep the idler wheel spinning as freely as possible whilst maintaining the plasticity of the idler wheel. I did intend to measure the idler wheel for the Wer modification but I could not find a 2.5mm or 3.00mm drill bit to measure the diameter of the wheel, this is annoying and it means I need to spend a little time walking to B&Q tomorrow to buy them :steam:, never mind at least the '75 is progressing.

Its getting colder in the garage so I don't see why I should suffer when I have valves and beer in my listening room, so the cleaning products got taken upstairs. :cool:

18388

A very dirty idler wheel with old oil and gunk.

18389



Same again lots of dirt and debris from over 40 years service spinning 12" frisbee's


18390


Now a little spit and polish and things start to look a lot cleaner.

18391

This looks more like it!

18392

[brian2957]

Looking good Andy . I give mine a clean and a relube . What lubricant did you use ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

So this is what it looks like after you've cleaned an idler wheel.

18393

This is as far as I have got. I've finished tonights work by re-lubricating the idler arm rubbers and idler wheel with vaseline which is just a simple matter of working the vaseline into the rubber and allowing to dry naturally. This procedure increases the water content back into the rubber and keeps plasticity.

18394

I now need to concentrate on the idler arm slider as mine is as slack as a bag of knackers. I've seen a few bits over on LH so I need to do a little research. The idler arm is now going to be in a state of flux until the Wer upgrade arrives. This is no big problem as i still have other stuff to do so tomorrow will be spent buying drill bits and organising the Wer upgrade.

As ever. :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Looking good Andy . I give mine a clean and a relube . What lubricant did you use ?

Everything got cleaned with IPA then wiped. I then used Brillo to clean excess oil and grime from the metal surfaces and then cleaned down with IPA again. The rubber gromets and idler wheel got relubed with vaseline. Oil will be simple 1in3 used when the times comes.

[brian2957]

Ah ! I never thought of vaseline ( or brillo pads for that matter ) . I've got some under the sink and I'll have to raid the wifes makeup drawer ( for the brillo pads :lol: )

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ah ! I never thought of vaseline ( or brillo pads for that matter ) . I've got some under the sink and I'll have to raid the wifes makeup drawer ( for the brillo pads :lol: )

:rfl:Thats a bit harsh!!!!!!

[brian2957]

Just as well she can't see this mate :D

[struth]

oh, she might :eyebrows:

[brian2957]

I get it :donk: ... you get it :donk: ... I know where you live matey :ner:

[struth]

ive moved. lol


anyway Andy, Have you finished pretty much now, or have you any more tests and mods to try mate?? its been a good read, and will be a good resource

[Wakefield Turntables]

ive moved. lol


anyway Andy, Have you finished pretty much now, or have you any more tests and mods to try mate?? its been a good read, and will be a good resource

hi Grant,

Nope there is still lots to do. Future areas include the bearing, idler wheel, tonearm, a DIY isolation platform, more vibration suppression, possible further optimisation of linkages. I have plenty to go at. ;)

[brian2957]

ive moved. lol


anyway Andy, Have you finished pretty much now, or have you any more tests and mods to try mate?? its been a good read, and will be a good resource

+1 :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The "Reference Lenco" Pt VIII - More musings....

Not really anything new to report tonight. I have parted rebuilt the Idler arm and have now finally ordered the Werner upgrade for the Idler arm this meant I had to find a 3mm drill bit and after a little seeking I found one in the deepest corner of a tool box this means I have to wait a few days but should mean the idler arm is finished. I can then start to think about the Idler arm slider. I have two '75's one for spares and the current restoration project on the go here. My restoration project has some give in the linkages but to be honest it's not that bad or important. The Idler arm slider is extremely loose and really needs to be rock solid, mine isn't so will need some work. I'm hoping that a simple rebuild will fix this but I have managed to find a few mods over on LH which seem to remedy this problem. The speed selector was another area of concern but after close inspection I can't see anywhere (other than removing the whole linkage set) to improve this. It sits on a solid brass column and the linkages are very taught so I'm hoping that this is going to be enough to supress vibration. It's the only area where I havent seen a gap for improvement. The Lenco can be modded to get rid of the whole speed selector linkage set but I like the idea of being to fine tune platter speed. My musings about vibration supression and the top plates components are coming to an end, we then have to think about the tonearm and vibrations getting into the deck from the equipment rack, cue a home-made vibration isolation platform at some point in the future.

The motor is an area where I have to pay some attention. I earth the mains lead to a small screw which holds the motor casing together, this is a big problem. The motor casing needs to be screwed as tightly togther as possible to prevent motor case vibration. Earting the mains lead means on the motor casing means a gap of 1mm bewteen the screw, the copper wire and the motor case. This means the screw looses some of its tightness and the motor vibrates. I have done lots messing around with these screws and concluded the tighter the better for vibration. Vibration is also going to travel from the mains lead and into the motor and vice versa, motor vibration into the NSC. Ideally I need to find an earth point which is not located on the top plate or motor, so it looks like the underside of the plinth. This removes another small source of vibration from the top plate. This also explains why I've not earthed the top plate. My deck dosen't hum so there is no need to add top plate earthing. And this we probably be another little update over the next few days. I need to get my backside into gear and get some platter dampening rings ordered. That's tomorrow's job.

As always... :wave:

[sq225917]

There's no water in vaseline andy, just hydrocarbons that are slowly dissolving the rubber you put them on. Looks good short term, long term sloppy guey mess.

[walpurgis]

There's no water in vaseline andy, just hydrocarbons that are slowly dissolving the rubber you put them on. Looks good short term, long term sloppy guey mess.

Yes. Silicone based rubber grease only, should be used on synthetic rubber.

[Wakefield Turntables]

There's no water in vaseline andy, just hydrocarbons that are slowly dissolving the rubber you put them on. Looks good short term, long term sloppy guey mess.

:doh: I did biochemistry at degree level so why I didn't I check. :doh:



Yes. Silicone based rubber grease only, should be used on synthetic rubber.

Looks like a call to Halfords then, I need to purchase some more paint.

Thanks for the corrections guys. :)

[walpurgis]

If any parts are organic rubber (Latex content), best not use even rubber grease Andy. It's difficult to tell sometimes what is synthetic (often Butyl) or natural rubber, especially on older components (it can be a mix). If in doubt use nothing on them.

[helma]

I've used hand washing dish soap to recondition various rubber mats (most must be synthetic but also a couple that seemed like mostly natural rubber from what I can tell), basically what I've done with them is rub the soap in, add a little water and let the mat soak for several hours or overnight and then wash it off well. This has worked quite well with all the various "rubber" mats I've tried it with, effect in restoring depth of color and suppleness ranging from "slight improvement" to "wow where did this new mat come from" and I've never experienced any ill-effects. But TT mats are not very critical and don't have any kind of load on them, and I have no idea what might be going on chemically to 'restore them', other than the rubber must be soaking in 'something'. So not sure if doing the same to the Lenco rubber parts would be wise. The rubber at the idler arm fixing end probably could use some attention, I started having issues with idler not always making contact, but rotating the rubber grommet 90 degrees fixed that for now at least.

[Arkless Electronics]

Tonights Update - The "Reference Lenco" Pt VIII - More musings....

Not really anything new to report tonight. I have parted rebuilt the Idler arm and have now finally ordered the Werner upgrade for the Idler arm this meant I had to find a 3mm drill bit and after a little seeking I found one in the deepest corner of a tool box this means I have to wait a few days but should mean the idler arm is finished. I can then start to think about the Idler arm slider. I have two '75's one for spares and the current restoration project on the go here. My restoration project has some give in the linkages but to be honest it's not that bad or important. The Idler arm slider is extremely loose and really needs to be rock solid, mine isn't so will need some work. I'm hoping that a simple rebuild will fix this but I have managed to find a few mods over on LH which seem to remedy this problem. The speed selector was another area of concern but after close inspection I can't see anywhere (other than removing the whole linkage set) to improve this. It sits on a solid brass column and the linkages are very taught so I'm hoping that this is going to be enough to supress vibration. It's the only area where I havent seen a gap for improvement. The Lenco can be modded to get rid of the whole speed selector linkage set but I like the idea of being to fine tune platter speed. My musings about vibration supression and the top plates components are coming to an end, we then have to think about the tonearm and vibrations getting into the deck from the equipment rack, cue a home-made vibration isolation platform at some point in the future.

The motor is an area where I have to pay some attention. I earth the mains lead to a small screw which holds the motor casing together, this is a big problem. The motor casing needs to be screwed as tightly togther as possible to prevent motor case vibration. Earting the mains lead means on the motor casing means a gap of 1mm bewteen the screw, the copper wire and the motor case. This means the screw looses some of its tightness and the motor vibrates. I have done lots messing around with these screws and concluded the tighter the better for vibration. Vibration is also going to travel from the mains lead and into the motor and vice versa, motor vibration into the NSC. Ideally I need to find an earth point which is not located on the top plate or motor, so it looks like the underside of the plinth. This removes another small source of vibration from the top plate. This also explains why I've not earthed the top plate. My deck dosen't hum so there is no need to add top plate earthing. And this we probably be another little update over the next few days. I need to get my backside into gear and get some platter dampening rings ordered. That's tomorrow's job.

As always... :wave:

Vibration won't effect the NSC and even if it did then the biggest source would be (either or both) sound impinging directly on the box from the speakers and 50Hz vibration from the two transformers in the unit....

[Wakefield Turntables]

Today's update - Lenco Reference pt IX

Ive sorted out the earthing issue and now I'm happy that the motor housing is about as firmly bolted together as possible. I'm now thinking about decoupling the tonearm. I need to have a look at what space I have under the top plate and see if it's possible to mount of the plinth itself. It's now a waiting game. The Jolyon bearing has been partly made and the Werner idler arm mod has been ordered. I'm waiting for my Mpingo spacer from Korea and the dampener rings are in transit, I hate this part of a deck build, the waiting bit before you can progress. :(

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another update ! - The Reference Lenco Pt X - Little Tweaks!!!

Tonight's update is just a few little tweeks that have been annoying me over the last few days. I've ditched the old power lead and decided to produce something in silver with some teflon tubing I had floating around. It probably does nothing for the decks performance but hey-ho nothing ventured, nothing gained. The earthing has become a lot easier which means I can now tighten up all the screws to the motor casing. I had one screw which had about 1mm additional rotation where the old earthing spade used to live as you can see this has now been removed and the screw has been tightened to great effect with lots of low torque from my drill. :eyebrows:

The annoying screw with 1mm's play!

18447

And after a good seeing to with Mr. Drill. I know that this greater reduces motor vibration. I've played around with the motor casing for an unhealthy amount of time whilst trying to reduce vibration.

18448

I've added a gromet to dampen down the idler spring column. Probably pointless. :eek:

18449

The idler arm park has also recieved the gromet treatment and it will need modifying to make sure the idler arm is sitting on the motor spindle correctly. Nice to see some parts actually going back on the deck.

18450

I'm beginning to see the end of this build even though we have quite some tinkering still to do! I would say 90% of the small fiddly stuff is now done. I also managed to tweak some of the linkages tonight and am happy to report they have no play. I still have to work on the Idler arm slider but I can't do anything until the Idler arm mod gets sent to me. The next two biggest jobs are decoupling the bearing and tonearm. I know how to do the bearing and think I've come up with a pretty good solution for the tonearm. Decoupling the tonearm means getting rid of the mounting base and additional screws into the plinth. I think I can mount the tonearm directly from under the top plate from the plinth. If all fails I can still remount the tonearm mounting base and mount the tonearm from the top plate (not ideal). The tonearm will then get some TLC and then the design of the isolation platform starts. I should be spinning before Xmas '16 and then I forsee the project developing as I delve more into other Lenco builds so it should still evolve. I might even apply some of the decoupling techniques to my beloved Garrard 301, probably the bearing!

As ever until next time..... :wave:

[brian2957]

Getting into the minor details now Andy . That's the same screw which I use to earth my motor too . I didn't know that the motor screws had to be really tight to minimize vibration . I'll also need to have a look at the idler arm park to see if I can do anything with it .
All good stuff as ever mate and food for thought with regards to the work I can do on mine . The Jolyon bearing is on my radar so I'm looking forward to your thoughts on that too .
What's going on in the 2nd picture Andy , where the motor seems to be touching the plinth .

[Wakefield Turntables]

What's going on in the 2nd picture Andy , where the motor seems to be touching the plinth .

I think it's just because the I altered the top plate to get a picture of the screw on the motor. I will have a check when I properly mount the top plate, well spotted. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XI - Tonearm musings

This project is slowly gaining momentum and it's nice to see that I may be spinning vinyl pretty soon. The Werner Idler arm modification has been sent and is now in transit in mainland Europe somewhere to the UK. This is good news as I can get the idler arm slider fixed and then fit the newly modded idler arm. I can then check platter speed and idler arm alignment. I've redone the power cables and have been pondering how to get the vibration supression springs under the top plate. I think I might have to drill into the plinth and create a space to accomodate the springs, we shall see.... I've been messing with the tonearm and ordering a few bits. The Alphason arm is a little light to accomodate the Denon 103M as it weight a whole 5g without it's protective cover and a whole 6g when fully clothed.

18465

So, to add some additional mass which is the proferred advice around the block I have bought a few bits and pieces. Mainly some chunky screws, a tonearm lifter, a 3g spacer and when it arrives from korea a 1g MPingo wooden spacer which adds mass and dampens any naughty vibrations. I've not beefed up the tonearm that much with additional mass but it does create a massive problem in that I have to generate additional tonearm height to accomodate the spacers :doh::doh::doh:.

18464

The additional tonearm height problem has highlighted one very important modification and that is one of tonearm decoupling from the top plate. I'm temporarily going to mount the arm on the top plate but will eventually decouple and mount internally to the plinth. I think I've gone as far as I can so far so until next time. :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

As if by magic some parcels have arrived from Spain and Korea :eyebrows: this means things can progress a little further.

[brian2957]

Oooh ! ...Nice one Andy . What's the one from Korea again ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

It's an Mpingo wood spacer for the Denon 103M I will be doing some tinkering tonight.

[brian2957]

It's an Mpingo wood spacer for the Denon 103M I will be doing some tinkering tonight.

For a change :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nowt hapnin t'nite am 'ta pub.:cool:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XII - Further Progression.....

I had a nice surprise the other day in that a couple of packages arrived which meant I could start to put the Lenco back together, firstly an Mpingo spacer for the Denon 103M cartridge and the Werner Idler wheel upgrade. My idler wheel oscillated slightly when running, not anymore, problem fixed. I've also had the problem of looses Idler arm slider linkages, again, problem fixed, not they are solid. I'm still left with the fact that I need to properly align the Idler arm and wheel but it's nice to see them back in place.

The Werner Idler wheel upgrade, 7Euros well spent.

18495

The '75 as it currently sits.

18496

The Jolyon bearing is now the component which is preventing this project from progressing. The bearing has been on order now for several weeks and it's being made so I'm hoping by early/mid Decemeber to take ownership and decouple into the plinth. Whilst I wait I have taken the oppotunity to extend my vibration elimination precautions to the tonearm. The HR100s is known to be quite weedy with some carts and needs a little bulking up this opened up the oppotunity to dampen the cartridge at the same time. My 103M now has an additional Mpingo wooden spacer to dampen this down further. The tonearm isn't even mounted so can't be set up yet.

18497

The deck is now approximately 70% finished. The bearing and tonearm decoupling perhaps the next 15% and then setup and further tweak research the last 15%. I still have lots of reading to do over on LH. So I suppose I better get going, as always until next time. :wave:

[brian2957]

I found that the idler wheel upgrade made a subtle difference and I'm sure that the Jolyon bearing will be a fairly substantial upgrade Andy . These incremental upgrades which you are making will make for a very special GL75 IMO . Part of my problem is that I've never been totally committed to vinyl replay , being a file based audio fan for the last few years , but I'm working on it :) .
I fully intend doing your upgrades which can be applied to my stock GL75 and there's a possibility that I may go for the Jolyon bearing when funds become available .

[Wakefield Turntables]

An awful lot of what's published on LH is tosh! Things like dampening the idler arm and messing around with the idler arm spring are red herrings. It's now just a matter of going through all the threads that I've selected to research and then go through ALL of the finished projects to see what others have done. It may also be worth while looking at experimental failures to see what not to do!

[brian2957]

Indeed , but there's sometimes quite a lot of reading , and some effort , required to find out that something doesn't work :(

I tend to think that if it looks ridiculous , then it probably is :lol:

[DSJR]

Early idler-arm springs were bare. Later ones as fitted to the GL78 era models had a black plastic tube if my GL78 is anything to go by.

All I can say is that Lenco had thirty years or more to perfect this vertical idler design and the fact that it didn't hugely change much apart from the idler wheel itself) must say something for it. I need to get the review scanned from Dave W (I'm sure I saw it at his place in his secret vintage magazine stash), but the only 'mod' offered in the late 60's to further reduce drive noise was an inline mains resistor of around 1k and 15W from memory - and don't feed me bull about sonics suffering, as the platter is so heavy it won't suffer drag from a 2g tracking cartridge due to the very slight reduction in torque which is almost too high with UK voltage in any case. Bass reproduction may well improve further though :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Early idler-arm springs were bare. Later ones as fitted to the GL78 era models had a black plastic tube if my GL78 is anything to go by.

All I can say is that Lenco had thirty years or more to perfect this vertical idler design and the fact that it didn't hugely change much apart from the idler wheel itself) must say something for it. I need to get the review scanned from Dave W (I'm sure I saw it at his place in his secret vintage magazine stash), but the only 'mod' offered in the late 60's to further reduce drive noise was an inline mains resistor of around 1k and 15W from memory - and don't feed me bull about sonics suffering, as the platter is so heavy it won't suffer drag from a 2g tracking cartridge due to the very slight reduction in torque which is almost too high with UK voltage in any case. Bass reproduction may well improve further though :D

Further experimentation for voltages into the Lenco motor can be seen here - http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15689.0

Happy reading.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Today's Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XIII - Testing times...

I'm quite eager to get the Lenco running as quickly as possible and don't want to have anything outstanding before the arrival of the bearing. I decided to re-wire the '75 today and test a few things that I'd done to the '75. Firstly the new switch mod worked first time, the old switch that used to live on my Lenco blew a resistor so kept the motor spindle spinning even though the Lenco was switched off, this has now been fixed. The top plate on/off switch now has no play in the linkages and you can tell the idler wheel now zips over to the motor spindle nicely. The Werner idler wheel modification was installed a few days ago and I'm pleased to say that the idler wheel has stopped oscillating. The motor and idler wheel are now SILENT even with my ear an inch away from the motor. You can only just hear the whisp of air as the idler wheel rotates. Everything seems to be going well so far. I'll do platter speed checks and idler arm alignment when the bearing arrives, no point at the moment. I'm still some time away from the Bearing arriving so it'snow just research for the time being. As always... :wave:

[AlfaGTV]

Tenacious as few! Following this with great interest!
Cheers, Mike

[brian2957]

Aye Andy's tenacious all right . I've never seen such attention to detail as this and I'm pretty sure that it will pay dividends in the end . I'm afraid I don't have this kind of patience :rolleyes:

No word on the Jolyon bearing yet Andy ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tenacious as few! Following this with great interest!
Cheers, Mike

Glad your enjoying it as much as I've been posting it.


Aye Andy's tenacious all right . I've never seen such attention to detail as this and I'm pretty sure that it will pay dividends in the end . I'm afraid I don't have this kind of patience :rolleyes:

No word on the Jolyon bearing yet Andy ?

Nowt yet Brian, just biding my time going through the various LH forum sections. Tonights reading includes the whole "completed project" section. :beer:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just ordered some platter rings to dampen down the stacked platters and improve the decks aesthetics. Been doing research over on LH and there appears to be lots of areas which can be exploited mainly


- Fill underside of top plate with Acrylic.
- Pan configuration for top plate.
- PTP top plate
- Decouple motor
- Vibration board mounted on springs
- Better feet

And the list goes on! Lots of other Lenco sites to investigate as well.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/LencoL75.htm

[helma]

There's certainly a wealth of information and possible tweaks, but not many of them backed up by anything else than personal preference. I'm sure many of them would be scientifically hard to 'prove' even if one had the means, and most DIYers don't. For example regarding the top plate, I chatted with a local guy once who has built many Lencos for himself and others, and he was of the opinion bolting the top plate to the plinth through the pan is not an improvement, but kills the sound. It might be he just personally prefers some lively resonance, or on the other hand it could be by changing the path of the energy something detrimental really does happen. But even then there's so many factors, like plinth material and mass, what works in one build might not work in another. Biggest imporvement according to him besides the usual stuff of heavy plinthing and cleaning and relubing everything was to center the motor coils. Makes sense, the less vibration there is coming from the motor obviously the better. It would be interesting experiment to build a plinth where you could mass load the motor casing and isolate it from the rest of the plinth not through springs, but some other means of isolation or even have the motor pod not in any contact with the rest of the plinth at all.

Btw. what all did you do to get rid of the idler wheel oscillating? I'm having some of that myself, I can hear it through speakers if I crank the volume high enough, a sort of whinging oscillating whistle/whine. I suppose it's probably an idler wheel alignment issue - I aligned the idler wheel the best I could by eye, and it got better but then I started loosing torque. Thinking it was the alignment, I realigned it back to where it was originally, where it started making a bit of that noise again, but I got my torque back. Then the problem reappeared and in the end it seemed to be about the rubber grommet which had gotten tired and turning it 90 degrees got rid of the problem. Now I'm thinking realigning the idler probably was not at all the cause of the problem, but just brought the issue with the rubber grommet to surface. However I haven't gone back to fiddling with it, since it works fine now and the noise is really faint, I can't hear it all with listening volumes, I really need to crank it beyond that and be close to speakers to hear it. I'm also thinking trying to recondition the rubber grommet would probably be a good idea, but again, since it works and using wrong stuff for reconditioning might mean improvement at first and the rubber falling apart later, I haven't taken the risk.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XIV - More Fettling and a kick up the arse!!!

I've had some downtime and decided to do more research, get in contact with a few Lenco GURU's and kick myself up the arse and get a few little jobs done.

Tonight I decided that the tonearm cable needed a little fettling so I cleaned the RCA's and the earthing post. I've had the TYR tonearm cable for years and have never given it a clean and considering that it's been on my list of stuff to do for a while I thought I better get on with the job. I always polish with BRASSO and then clean away any residue with IPA and then finish cleaning with contact cleaner and cotton wool. The finished article.....

18536


I recieved another package today and managed to complete another task on the list this time it was... platter dampening rings. I ordered these from eBay for £13 and they arrived 24 hours later, that's quick!! Why bother? Well, the platter did have some imperfections when I polished it and they do hide a multitude of sins :eyebrows: as well as adding an additional vibration control to the deck. I've been a firm believer in dampening rings for a long time and utilise them on all my platters which are usually bloody big heavy metal things. I've used them on my 301 for quite some time and they add a small but worthwhile improvement and hopefully will give me a nice return for my investment. I used three on the Lenco top platter and should compliment the aesthetics of black top plate and silver tonearm. I've taken a quick snapshot of what the platters will look like once on the deck.

18538


Now, the Jean Nantis TJN modded is either loved or loathed. Plenty of people seem to think it works others think it's complete bunkum. I decided to contact Jean and see how much this mod costs, well $75 is the answer and I honestly can't see how a couple of clips, some fine line and a small weight is going to cost that amount so it looks like I'm going to produce my own version. It's not high on the list of things to do at the moment and will only "live" on my Lenco if I can percieve a sonic improvement. Now to all those that think it's bollocks I agree that the theory is ropey but I still think it's worth trying. I'll probably start getting the bits together over the next few days/weeks and assess over Xmas to report my findings back. I've also contact Jean with regards the Post mod for the Idler arm. There seems to be several ways of doing this and I'm assessing which is best. I've tightened my idler arm slider as much as possible and it still rocks. It's designed to do this but it will produce idler wheel oscillation and instability when engaging the platter during operation.

As an aside I now need to start looking at coupling the top plate to the platter. I'm going to order some Marine resin and fill the top plate. I have a spare top plate to experiment with. This will add additional mass to the L75 and increase it's surface area so this will enable better coupling to the plinth. I will also fill additional holes in the top plate and determine where I can use some wood screws with washers to better couple the top plate to the plinth. So plenty to do over the next few weeks. I'll make a proper start with all this stuff probably in the new year. Let's just get the Jolyon bearing installed and have a listen to what we've produced so far!!!!


NOW Kai, some answers...


There's certainly a wealth of information and possible tweaks, but not many of them backed up by anything else than personal preference. I'm sure many of them would be scientifically hard to 'prove' even if one had the means, and most DIYers don't. For example regarding the top plate, I chatted with a local guy once who has built many Lencos for himself and others, and he was of the opinion bolting the top plate to the plinth through the pan is not an improvement, but kills the sound. It might be he just personally prefers some lively resonance, or on the other hand it could be by changing the path of the energy something detrimental really does happen. But even then there's so many factors, like plinth material and mass, what works in one build might not work in another. Biggest imporvement according to him besides the usual stuff of heavy plinthing and cleaning and relubing everything was to center the motor coils. Makes sense, the less vibration there is coming from the motor obviously the better. It would be interesting experiment to build a plinth where you could mass load the motor casing and isolate it from the rest of the plinth not through springs, but some other means of isolation or even have the motor pod not in any contact with the rest of the plinth at all.

Btw. what all did you do to get rid of the idler wheel oscillating? I'm having some of that myself, I can hear it through speakers if I crank the volume high enough, a sort of whinging oscillating whistle/whine. I suppose it's probably an idler wheel alignment issue - I aligned the idler wheel the best I could by eye, and it got better but then I started loosing torque. Thinking it was the alignment, I realigned it back to where it was originally, where it started making a bit of that noise again, but I got my torque back. Then the problem reappeared and in the end it seemed to be about the rubber grommet which had gotten tired and turning it 90 degrees got rid of the problem. Now I'm thinking realigning the idler probably was not at all the cause of the problem, but just brought the issue with the rubber grommet to surface. However I haven't gone back to fiddling with it, since it works fine now and the noise is really faint, I can't hear it all with listening volumes, I really need to crank it beyond that and be close to speakers to hear it. I'm also thinking trying to recondition the rubber grommet would probably be a good idea, but again, since it works and using wrong stuff for reconditioning might mean improvement at first and the rubber falling apart later, I haven't taken the risk.

I got rid of the wheel oscillation buy using the Werner Idler arm modification which costs 7 Euro. It works by using 2 larger teflon washers to replace the much smaller versions supplied by Lenco. Werner also supplies a small locking collar to which enables a better fit betwee the washers and the idler wheel. The Teflon has a very low coefficient of friction but still need either greasing or oiling (depending on your choice) I used 3-in-1 oil and the wheel now functions silently and with no oscillation. You may also want to do the Post modification to the Idler arm slider as this is an area of idler wheel oscillation. I think "alignment" is bollocks :lol:. All you need to do is make sure that the platter rotates at 33.33 rpm with a vertical non-oscillating idler wheel. Well I think if your Lenco is working well then leave it alone. Hope this helps.

18535

[Wakefield Turntables]

The project has tanked for the time being as I've done all the prep work for the deck I'm just waiting for the new bearing. I'm researching on LH and I have anothe 42 pages of thread to go through before I've officially "read" the entire LH forum. Any additional research will now come from individual websites. Come on Jolly where's the bearing..... :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XV - The Loneliness of the long distance Lenco modder....

I've finally got the news I've been waiting for. The new bearing should be here in less than 7 days. I'm going to initially listen to the Lenco with the new bearing coupled to the top plate and get to know how it sounds. There have been many many mods over the last few weeks so I think it only appropiate to at least have some understanding of how the '75 sounds before I go any further with the mods. My research is still continuing at a pace and I now only have 36 pages of threads left over in the Lenco projects sections of LH to go and then I've read the entire contents of LF forum :eek:. I've realised that I need another top plate before I can progress any further with this project so I dusted off my spare Lenco top plate and stripped it down.

This is going to form the next stage of the Lenco Reference. This top plate will be properly filled with Marine Resin. All excess holes will be filled but I first have to determine which I'm keeping and which I'm filling. I have some rather neat ideas with regards what I want do do with this top plate. The tonearm holes will be properly filled and the speed selection will be filled and coupled to the top plate more effectively.

18618

I've come to realise that MASS is very important for getting the best from the '75. So I decided to do some experiments with regards measuring the mass of my deck and plinth. The bog standard un-modded '75 top plate is 4lb.


18619

See told you so... :rolleyes:.... :)

18620


I've ordered some marine resin and will fill the void under the top plate and then re-assess the mass.
18621

The surface area under the top plate will be markedly increased which means nasty vibrations will sink into the plinth over a wider surface area which should improve the deck's ability to deal with spurious vibrations. Filling the voids also improves the coupling capability of the top plate to the plinth. Additional mass will be added. So far I know my unmodded top plate is 4lb, I have also weighed my Plinth and it comes in at 22lb, so I have a mass of 26lb's so far. This is measly compared to some of the 100lb beasts that inhabit LH :stalks:. So, until next time.... :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - The Reference Lenco pt XVI - Heavy Man, or adding mass and more messing around with top plates.

I'm a little frustrated tonight as the deck is still in a state of flux but it's next iteration is slowly coming to fruition. I'm in the process of refurbing and prepping a new heavier, stiffer top plate for my 2017 adventures with the Lenco. The marine resin has arrived today and shall at some stage be poured into the gaps on the underside of the top plate. I had to protect the mounting threads so a little bolt and some blutack will suffice and shall be removed when the marine resin has set.

18685

My old top plate is like a swiss cheese and has many holes which should really be filled up so tonight I've spent a little time deciding what needs to stay and what needs to be blocked up, as can be seen in these two pics. There won't be that much left when I've finished and these precautions should add a little more weight and stiffness to the top plate.

1868618684

The bearing is still being made :rolleyes: so I can't progress any further with the deck. I'm just wanting to now get the deck together and do some long term listening so I can determine how it sounds and then start to improve it further with the next round of mods in 2017. I need to do some more experimenting with the NSC and I'm looking into the possibility of getting rid of the speed selector linkages. Right, I think that's as far as I can go, tomorrow might be the beginning of filling in the holes of the new top plate. As always.... :wave:

[brian2957]

I'm a bit confused Andy . Where are you putting the resin ? Have you used this stuff before , got a link to it ?

I take it the Jolyon bearing hasn't arrived yet .

[Gazjam]

I'd always wanted to take the Lenco when I had mine down the PTP plate/ slate plinth route.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Brian,

the resin goes under the top plate around its perimeter it's supposed to stop resonance and add mass. I've never used the resin before but have used various similar products so I'm quite confident. The bearing hasn't arrived yet but he did say it would be beginning of December I'm just eager to get cracking.

[brian2957]

Cheers mate , I don't think I've come across this before . Can't this be done to the stock unit ? Or maybe fitting Dynamat or the like in this area .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yeah you can do it to a stock unit no problems. Dynamat would work to dampen vibration and I've used it in the past but most people seem to say that it dampens the listening experience too much. Additionally there is no consensus of opinion as to where to best place the Dynamat. Boat resin is tried and tested and follows the well trodden path of adding mass to the top plate which is known to improve the '75s presentation, and it's probably easier to chip out than Dynamat if you don't like it. I should be posting some pix over the next few days.

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy , I'll be looking further into this .

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy , I'll be looking further into this .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'd always wanted to take the Lenco when I had mine down the PTP plate/ slate plinth route.

PTp does have its benefits and maximally minimises the lenco. I've never been sold on the slate plinth thing. Slate does have a good reputation amongst many hifi users but I prefer to understand why a material has an effect and with wood we have some history of this phenomena with instrument makers utilising specific woods for specific instruments and applications. Slate is a unique entity in that it's devised from local sediments meaning it'll all sound different at least with wood you have some uniformity in the sound it produces and more importantly how it might sound. My 2017 adventures with the Lenco are probably going to be a very heavy mass CLD designed plinth with several woods, probably cherry and English oak. I need to do some research in instrument making and see how they proceed.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Part XVII - Stiffness or is that a Lenco or are you please to see me?

More research into Lenco building and that magical phrase "consensus of opinion" has cropped up with regards coupling or decoupling. It seems that Lenco's like to be stiff and that suits me fine because I'm getting a little lazy with modding the Lenco and Xmas is just around the corner. I want to listen to the fruits of my labours rather than beavering away in a freezing garage over winter. It looks like I'm going to stiffen the Lenco even further. So with the top plate still waiting to be filled with Marine Resin, I decided to order the bearing mount for the top plate which should couple the bearing very nicely to the top plate. I'll also be cross bracing the plinth from the underside and then mounting the bearing to the cross brace which should add for a very rigid bearing and should additionally create another mounting "bolt" if you like for pulling the top plate down onto the plinth thus making for a much stiffer and couple top plate.

[brian2957]

I'll probable be filling the top plate with resin as per your thoughts Andy . However , I may apply layers of fibreglass with the resin , we'll see .

I thought the bearing mount for the top plate came with the Jolyon bearing . TBH it did make a difference to mt GL75 and was money well spent .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'll probable be filling the top plate with resin as per your thoughts Andy . However , I may apply layers of fibreglass with the resin , we'll see .

I thought the bearing mount for the top plate came with the Jolyon bearing . TBH it did make a difference to mt GL75 and was money well spent .

I'd hang fire with pouring any resin in there yet I think I might have a better product than the suggested materials in my link. I've been speaking to some of the guys over on LH and there appears to be better products available that are cheaper, better quality and easier to use. I have now ordered the bearing mount and hopefully should get the mount and the bearing middle next week. :D

[brian2957]

OK mate , look forward to your findings with this new material .

Still not got the bearing ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Should be finished on Sunday. Hopefully arrives Tuesday/Wednesday.

[brian2957]

OK mate , I'll keep my eyes peeled :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight Update - Pt XVIII - Adding top plate stiffness.

The project has been slowly boiling away in the background whilst I've been waiting for the new bearing and top plate clamp. My main area of activity has been to prepare a new top plate with additional rigidity and mass. This meant that I needed to fill in every hole in the new top plate and then sand everything down ready for eventual primer and respraying. It's been a labour intensive procedure and it's still not perfect. The top plate still needs a little work and will need to be sanded down with finer grit paper so that I can produce a nice finish. The underside of the top plate is a mess. I'm not worried about the periphery as that's going to be filled with marine resin. The circular "pan" needs tidying up and I'll eventually sand it all flat. I'm not that bothered about the underside but I may prime and spray depending upon how the mood takes me. This new top plate has been modded so that the tonearm is decoupled from the top plate and can either be coupled directly to any new plinth or added to a seperate arm pod. All none-essential holes have been filled up and the speed selection slider area has been filled in apart from the 33rpm section, this will eventually just have the small metal selector super glued to the top plate, thus getting rid of another screw and better coupling the components to the top plate. Time for some pix.

So, this is the old top plate as it now stands, a complete swiss cheese.


18736


This is the new top plate for the "Reference" Lenco. Everything is filled in apart from bare essentials. Still needs lots of work. :(

18737

The underside looks like a dog's dinner. Next job is to pour marine resin into the periphery. The circular "pan" with get smartened up as a necessity to make sure the various slider fit and work properly.

18738

Next step is the marine resin. Tomorrow night is probably going to be a little more sanding and tidying up the "pan". As always :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just a quick note tonight. I've been messing around with the top plate and managed to get quite a fair old bit done. The marine resin has arrived and looks like a load of fun. I'm probably going to do some pouring tomorrow, just need a measuring jar. It'll be quite interesting to find out how much additional mass the resin adds to the original top plate. Still no bearing or clamp :steam:.

[brian2957]

Will this method be applicable for the stock top plate Andy ? I had to wait quite a while for my bearing clamp IIRC .

[CornishPasty]

Filling the top plate with resin isn't just about adding stiffness and mass, it's about increasing contact area between the top plate and plinth. The relationship between top plate and plinth should not be underestimated.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Filling the top plate with resin isn't just about adding stiffness and mass, it's about increasing contact area between the top plate and plinth. The relationship between top plate and plinth should not be underestimated.


Ralph, I've already talked about increasing surface area, that's mainly why I'm doing this mod. I was going to try and decouple various bits but be decided to go down the rigidity/mass/coupling route instead. The plinth is the next area of xperimentation, kitty litter ahoy!

[brian2957]

Where's the cat gonny go then :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Will this method be applicable for the stock top plate Andy ? I had to wait quite a while for my bearing clamp IIRC .

Yes and no. You will have to dismantle the speed selector, protect the area, pour the resin and then reinstate the arm linkages, top plate screws and other gubbins when the resin is set. You will have to get rid of your mounting springs and make new mounting threads. All simple stuff but a PITA, you might want to look out for a cheapo knackered 75 and start experimenting, I think pouring resin into your lovely lenco might just be a step too far away from its originality.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Kitty litter, it's betonite clay and it's what a lot of the high end plinth makers use because it's got excellent dampening characteristics. Some garrard plinths costs £1000s use this material. I'm experimenting with the resin first and then will start maybe messing around Feb/March 2017 with new plinths for the 301 and the lenco 75.

[brian2957]

Mmm... Yes I wondered about this and I think you're right Andy . I may have to get another GL75 in the new year to play with . The stock one which I have at the moment is just too good to mess around with .

[brian2957]

Kitty litter, it's betonite clay and it's what a lot of the high end plinth makers use because it's got excellent dampening characteristics. Some garrard plinths costs £1000s use this material. I'm experimenting with the resin first and then will start maybe messing around Feb/March 2017 with new plinths for the 301 and the lenco 75.

You don't do things by halves , do you mate :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm still debating wether or not to go a step further and use dampening paint on the marine resin as another level of resonance control.

[brian2957]

Before or after applying the resin ?

You have PM mate.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Before or after applying the resin ?

You have PM mate.

Dunno if its even worthwhile doing this mod, need to do some more reading.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Pt XIX - We've hit a red light Houston.

Tonight has seen me coming to a full and utter halt now with the Lenco as I'm still waiting for my new Lenco bearing and top plate clamp. I've also finished modding the second top plate which I intend using with a newly designed plinth sometime in 2017. I only started modding the second top plate to pass the time away whilst I waited for the bearing and clamp. My CDO got the better of me and I decided to smarten up the underside of the plinth and paint the base of the pan. I have no idea why I bothered because virtually no-one will ever see it. As always the biggest pain in the bum is the prep work when your modding the Lenco decks. This next photo shows all top plate after it's been worked over by all the various grade of sand paper including 400 grit wet and dry.



18781

I've left the periphery of the "pan" alone as this is going to be filled with Marine Resin. The "pan" gets the usual going over with wet and dry etc etc.


18783

OK we are now ready to go with the primer. The top plate and the "pan" get 5 layers of primer. You can now see that the top plate has been cured of it's swiss cheese look and now has the minimum of holes needed. The speed selector has been modded even further to remove excess screws from the top plate and I now only have the 33rpm speed selector available. The underside of the plinth looks a little smarter and is ready for filling with resin and painting.

1878418785


And this is the resin I found from ebay and suggested by a member over on LH. £15 delivered from ebay. Very easy to use, is 1ml of hardener for 100ml of resin. I found I needed ~350-400 ml of resin to fill the topplate.

18782

See more in pt 2.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Reference Leno - Pt XIX - Pt 2

OK, so this is what you have to do if you want to pour resin into the top plate. Firstly find x4 M4 screws and screw them into the mounting bolt holes and then cover the screws with blue tack. Secondly protect the speed selector area. I did this by filling in the speed selector with blutack and then using some plastic to form a gully for the speed selector arm.


18786

You now need to make sure your top plate is level. I used my old spirit level from when I built my extension.

18787

Things weren't quite level so a little packaging soon did the trick. :lol:


18788

And this is what a Lenco 75 top plate looks like 24 hours later filled with resin. The various bits of protective gubbins have been removed.


18789

Now the project has ground to a halt. FCUK!

[brian2957]

Looking great Andy . I was wondering how you limited the speed change to 33 RPM . The pictures are worth a thousand words :)

Your OCD is quite obvious in this post :) Is there really any other way to do it :D

The top plate looks great and I'm looking forward to the finished article where you put the top coat on .

Are you going to be designing and building your own plinth ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Looking great Andy . I was wondering how you limited the speed change to 33 RPM . The pictures are worth a thousand words :)

Your OCD is quite obvious in this post :) Is there really any other way to do it :D

The top plate looks great and I'm looking forward to the finished article where you put the top coat on .

Are you going to be designing and building tour own plinth ?

It was a bit difficult trying to describe the 33rpm mod over the phone. The plinth is something that I need to think about. I quite fancy doing a multiple arm plinth. I'll probably also experiment a bit with marine resin and kitty litter if this new top plate sounds any good.

[brian2957]

My ''gut'' feeling is that it will sound very good indeed , although as ever , the proof is in the listening .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Finally it looks like the new bearing and clamp are going to turn up this week! The old Lenco can get assembled and I can do some proper listening over the Xmas period. Looks like the old valves and Tannoy's will be going away over Xmas in favour of the '75 and ATC speakers :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Bearing, bearing clamp and snake wood wooden body for the Shure have arrived. :gig:

[brian2957]

Excellent , what are you fitting first ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Bearing and clamp first, I have a denon 103m mounted on the tonearm so I want to give that a listen first. It looks like I might have to do some fiddling around with the Shure in that I might have to remove the body, I could be wrong but I'm at work at the moment so I'll know when I get back this afternoon.

[DSJR]

One possible issue, you still have the more flexible deck plate. I serviced a G99 a few weeks ago and couldn't believe how much more 'solid' it's build was.

[Wakefield Turntables]

One possible issue, you still have the more flexible deck plate. I serviced a G99 a few weeks ago and couldn't believe how much more 'solid' it's build was.

The bearing clamp will mitigate some of the flexibility in the deck plate, but I've already taken care of the flexibility issue by preparing a second top plate that is full is marine resin. Believe me there is NO flex in that top plate. The resin adds an additional 1lb in weight to the top plate and massively improves the contact surface area. Trust me I've given lots of thought to this build. Just out of interest, Dave, what problems do you think may arise from the additional flexibity in the '75 top plate? I'm always interested to hear theories, ideas etc I might be able to do a little more tweaking. ;)

[brian2957]

Bearing and clamp first, I have a denon 103m mounted on the tonearm so I want to give that a listen first. It looks like I might have to do some fiddling around with the Shure in that I might have to remove the body, I could be wrong but I'm at work at the moment so I'll know when I get back this afternoon.

OK Andy . I got the impression that the wooden body just fitted over the original . I'm not sure that I'm too keen on taking the cartridge to bits .

[Wakefield Turntables]

OK Andy . I got the impression that the wooden body just fitted over the original . I'm not sure that I'm too keen on taking the cartridge to bits .

Lets wait and see it might not be the case.

[brian2957]

Yep , it would make things a little simpler if it fits over the original body . Don't know which would be best for SQ though .

[CageyH]

I was under the impression that you had to separate two plastic parts of the cartridge.
The bit that has the mounting grooves on, and the part containing the generator.

[CageyH]

I think that the theory is similar to this - http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5044.0

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice find Kevin, looks like I'm taking some scalpal blades home tonight then. :eyebrows: I've never done surgery on a cartridge body before.

[brian2957]

:uhho: :popcorn:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XX - Putting the jigsaw back together again.

OK, so I turned upto work this morning and found that I had a nice package waiting for me containing my new bearing and it's matching base plate. I also had the pleasure to find a new Snake wood body for my Shure M55E cartridge and in second package hiding behind the first. The new bearing is quite meaty and pretty hefty when compared to it's original older brother the lathe work on this product is second to none. It just feels right. The same can be said for the matching base bearing base plate. Fitting both the base plate and the new bearing will take ~5 minutes and is an extremely easy process. It is a tight fight and a little wiggling around has to be done before things are back in place but once fitted it looks extremely pleasing to the eye. The Lenco has been inactive for quite some time and in that period various mods and upgrades have been installed and all have been documented over the last few updates. The main differences are that I have x3 platter rings on the second platter, I have a denon 103M installed, and the new bearing and base plate. So, it's going to be impossible to see how each little tweak has impacted the '75 so I think It's probably better to describe the whole thing as a "package" when I write up my findings in the future. The Lenco isn't without it's problems at the moment. It did have ground loop hum which I've solved but I think I've knocked a suspension spring out of place as the motor is now vibrating and making some noise whilst previously it was silent. The deck still needs some tweaking and TBH has only been roughly setup. I just wanted to get the thing playing ;). Spinning the double platter on the new bearing has been quite fun the platter now takes ages to stop and just seems to rotate forever.


The bearing and base plate.

18833

See what i mean about a tight fight.

18834

My favourite MM cart, my old M55E, this has been through some mods over the last year and started off as a complete punt from eBay for £13! Here it is pimped in a snakewood wooden body. Remove the old plastic body is a piece of cake and took exactly 60 seconds. I was shocked to see that the main body of the Shure cartridge is very thinly glued into the old plastic body and TBH probably rattles around like a silly bugger. Just out of interest it would be extremely easy to rebody the shure in the old plastic body if needed. Fitting the cartridge into the new wooden body is a piece of cake, just push it in. It's an extremely tight fit and I honestly think nothing else needs to be done with regards securing the cart in place. My own concern is the mounting bolts. You'll need some extremely thin mounting bolts to mount this onto a headshell. I think I might just have to widen the mounting holes by an extra mm or so. I'll be trying this tomorrow. Personally I can't wait.

1883518836

So the '75 is back together and now I'm just going to enjoy it over the holiday, learn it's sonic characteristics. I'll fine tune the deck's setup and get rid of the motor vibration. So far it's sounds better than it ever has. Now I just have to find a piece of thick steel to further stiffen the bearing connection to the top plate, but that's another mod for another day. :eyebrows:

[brian2957]

Nice one Andy . She lives :eek:

The bearing certainly looks like a piece of kit . I have the bearing top collar fitted to mine and it's beautifully made . The bearing really looks like a tight fit , however it does fit and that's the important bit .

Once I've finished playing with Ralphs headshell and brass counterweights I'll have a look at the M55e to see if I feel comfortable taking it to bits .

I hope you enjoy the fruits of your labour over the holidays Andy, and I'm looking forward to your thoughts :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XXI - ' Tweakin.

The deck has been tweaked a little tonight. The tonearm has been reasonably well setup, I'm still playing around with optimal tonearm height parallel to the vinly. The new snakewood body has been fitted to my Shure M55E cartridge and it's tracking at 1.4g I could really do with 2mm extra height above the vinyl but that's a problem for another night. I've decided to use the Copper record weight just to see if it adds anything to the presentation of the cartridge. I've also been playing with the voltage going through the '75 and have decided to stick with 220V for the time being things just don't sound as good when I'm down at the 200-210V area. I'm going to be listening over the next few weeks to this deck altough I have to say that the deck does sound markedly better when you strap a Denon 103M and Modified Lentek head amp on board. First impressions? Well, there is plenty of space between the instruments and the Shure is pretty laid back when compared to its MC compadre's. It's still too early in the day to make any serious observations but all I can say is that I'm really enjoying my time with the '75 in it's current guise. I've added a couple of pics to show you what the deck now looks like.


1887818879

[brian2957]

Very nice indeed Andy , lucky man , but I know you've worked hard to get the GL75 to this stage .

Did you have to widen the holes on the new M55e wooden cover after all ? I would love to know if it has changed the sonic character of the cartridge but I guess it's difficult to tell with all the changes you've made .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Brian I've sent you a PM.

[brian2957]

Brian I've sent you a PM.

Nothing received Andy .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - The Reference Lenco Pt XXII - Which path to take?

I've been completely smitten with the Shure M55E/JICO elliptical stylus and Snakewood body combo it's been sitting on my Lenco for the last few days producing some very nice relaxed sonics, so much so that it's my goto deck when I just want a few relaxing sides of vinyl, it's not quite as good as the Valve system I own but this really is a fantastic sounding deck even if I do say so myself. I have now to select the path of MM or MC :wowzer:. I also just happen to own a modded lentek head amp and Denon 103M cartridge which also produce some extremely nice noises but I also intend to get the JICO neoSAS stylus for the Shure M55E next year. Xmas 2016 is being spent getting to know the sonic signature of the Shure/JICO/Snakewood body lashup. Fortunately the good old Shure has been discussed in great detail by two members of AOS (Marco & Jimbo) and thankfully for me they have described the sonic presentation of this cart perfectly so a lot of the work has been done for me, cheer lads :cool:. January will be spent listening to the 103/Lentek combo and then a decision made in Februray with regards what's stopping on the Alphason tonearm.

Now for something completely different. It's time to start looking for some metal so I can add a cross brace to my plinth, why ? Well this will stiffen the plinth further and also more importantly allow me to do two things, firstly further improve the coupling of the Jolyon bearing to the top plate if I so wish or secondly decouple the bearing completely from the top plate. I'll probably do this wee mod over the Xmas period if the mood takes me. 2017 will soon be upon us and then it looks like new plinth design time. :sofa:

So until next time..... :wave:

[brian2957]

This has been a fantastic thread so far Andy . I may follow the route you have taken if I buy another GL75 next year . This one will be stating stock with a few judicious modifications which are easily reversible . I'm listening to this fantastic turntable as I write this ... wonderful :D . Firstly I will be fitting the wooden body modification to the M55e when I receive it and then a Jico SAS stylus is on the cards . I will of course be keeping an eye on this extremely interesting and informative thread .
Roll on 2017 :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

This has been a fantastic thread so far Andy . I may follow the route you have taken if I buy another GL75 next year . This one will be stating stock with a few judicious modifications which are easily reversible . I'm listening to this fantastic turntable as I write this ... wonderful :D . Firstly I will be fitting the wooden body modification to the M55e when I receive it and then a Jico SAS stylus is on the cards . I will of course be keeping an eye on this extremely interesting and informative thread .
Roll on 2017 :)

Thanks mate. We might be coming to an end soon. Cartridge choices arn't really anything to do with the development of the deck. The main thing for me next year is the implentation of completely decoupled tonearm's on a plinth which will accept the newly modified resin filled plinth. I want to try a CLD design with some extra mass. It's all good fun in the end and keeps me off the streets. :christmas:

[walpurgis]

I may follow the route you have taken if I buy another GL75 next year .

I have a scruffy one with busted arm and no lid that I'm moving on. Mechanically the rest seems OK and it has its plinth.

[brian2957]

I have a scruffy one with busted arm and no lid that I'm moving on. Mechanically the rest seems OK and it has its plinth.

Thanks for the offer Geoff but the wooden body and Jico SAS stylus will probably leave me skint for a bit :rolleyes:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco PT XXIII - Brace yourself Captain Mannering...!!!

Well I decided to go down the path of rigidity for the bearing and platter combination with the Reference Lenco build. I've been banging on for some time now with regards adding a brace to the base of the Jolyon bearing to stiffen the bearing to the plinth and additionally add another method of pulling the top plate down even further onto the plinth. The solution was incredibly simple and included a simple bracket I found sitting in my tool box, a 8mm drill bit, a few nut, bolts, washers and a couple of wood screws! The bracket needed modding slightly to accept the M8 bolt thread from the base of the bearing. I took the oppotunity to add some nuts and washers to the thread and brace whenever possible to maximise rigidity. I'm now running out of mods to do to the Lenco which is a nice place to be in really as I can now get to enjoy the music. The motor could be decoupled I suppose but it's silent and works extremely well I should probably fill the springs with foam to dampen then even further, maybe that could be next weeks job, hunt for some foam! Next year will be a big turning point in the development of the Lenco in that a new plinth is being designed to accept two completely decoupled tonearm pods meaning I can play around with tonearm and cartridge setup's without worrying about resonance getting into the tonearm or cartridge from the plinth. Additionally the new plinth will be larger with more mass and more importantly the new resin fillled plinth will be utilised. And I think that's about as far as I can push this Lenco. I could do silly things like go down the route of a PTP, add the post mod, dampen down the idler arm, etc but some of these mods really are bunk'um and actually help to destroy your lenco. The other big choice next year is MM or MC? Well I have a quick, dirty solution, why not do both if I'm having a two tonearm plinth :eyebrows:.

So just a few shots to show you all what I've been waffling on about. First shot shows the base of the bearing a a M8 thread will several nuts already tightened and adding tension to the base of the bearing.

1892118922

Finally the bracket I found in my tool box, probably available from B&Q for a couple of quid, drilled and bolted into place with additional washer and another nut on the base trying to add additional tension and rigidigty. There is probably a better way to do this but the bearing feels solid with ZERO motion.

18923

Has it made any difference? Well yes I think it has. The soundstage seems a little more cohesive and I'm getting more micro detail. Low level listening is very detailed indeed and a pleasure to listen to vinyl. Roll on the new year for the new JICO neoSAS stylus!!

[brian2957]

Aha! I see you've been busy mate . Nice work again , pretty ingenious I would say :)

I should be able to apply this solution to the stock GL75 when I get the Jolyon bearing .

I found that every time I've applied a modification to mine that it changed the SQ , subtly but audibly . These were usually small improvements in focus and micro - detail . All worthwhile IMO .

Glad your work is paying dividends Andy but sorry that this great thread is coming to an end .

Enjoy mate :)

[Marra]

It has been a good read following your progress Andy. Nicely done.

Hopefully in the New Year I will be making a similar journey with my L75.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Aha! I see you've been busy mate . Nice work again , pretty ingenious I would say :)

I should be able to apply this solution to the stock GL75 when I get the Jolyon bearing .

I found that every time I've applied a modification to mine that it changed the SQ , subtly but audibly . These were usually small improvements in focus and micro - detail . All worthwhile IMO .

Glad your work is paying dividends Andy but sorry that this great thread is coming to an end .

Enjoy mate :)

Brian, I think that you will see big improvements with a 12mm baltic birch plywood baseboard. Additionally you can always bolt the bearing to the base board which is extremely easy to do. It's just a matter of cutting down some M8 thread to the relevant length, buying a couple of M8 nuts and washers, drilling 8mm hole into the base
board and job done! I think you could probably do the whole thing for less than £15. The bearing is more expensive though!!! Did you change your tonearm wire?


It has been a good read following your progress Andy. Nicely done.

Hopefully in the New Year I will be making a similar journey with my L75.

Thanks Keith I hope you got something from it. I'm not done yet and should be updating through next year as the new mods arise. So, I'm not signing off just yet. ;)

[brian2957]

Cheers Andy . I'll be gong to buy the wood tomorrow and I have the perfect template :)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/IMG_20161227_181851474_zpsaf4akxjh.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/IMG_20161227_181851474_zpsaf4akxjh.jpg.html)

The whole thing is bowed and so will be replaced with a nice bit of 12mm plywood .

If you mean the cable from the turntable to the phono stage yes I did mate .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nice photo, yep that looks like it could do with something more substantial. Just a thought, why not buy 4 little corner brackets and add one to each of the corners to stiffen up the base a little more. That's a little trick I used and have seen discussed on a few sites. Glad to hear you replaced the tonearm cable I was just thinking of other things you could do whilst keeping your beast original. How's the sibilance doing, has it driven you mad yet setting up the cart and experimenting? I remember when I did my 1210 I felt like :drugs: (even though I've never done them).

[brian2957]

Yup might give the brackets a go Andy , shouldn't be too difficult .

Firstly , I'll get the base sorted .

TBH I'm using the AT95e at the moment and I'm really enjoying it .

I had a problem with the M55e . Mine was in three bits . The inner plastic casing , then a rectangular metal casing which the inner casing fits into , then the brown plastic casing with the holes for the headshell bolts . Basically the thing was falling to pieces , so I'm waiting for the wooden body to arrive before making a decision on how to proceed .

I struggled to get rid of the sibilance with the M55e , maybe because it all needs to be fixed together again properly . It has all but gone with the AT95e . We'll see when the wooden body arrives .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Can you post some pics of the Shure cartridge to see what it now looks like?

PS Glad to here your experimenting with new stuff and the sibilance has gone.

[brian2957]

Andy I glued the inner piece back into the outer metal casing . This is what I have now after I pushed the inner cartridge back into the metal rectangular casing , after I cleaned everything up first .

TBH , looking at the state of it I think this has happened before and the person who sold it to me has dubbed things up in order to get rid .

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010824_zpsxz1y6utr.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010824_zpsxz1y6utr.jpg.html)

[brian2957]

Well , I fitted the new 12mm ply baseboard today . Unfortunately this produced a problem . The motor was touching the base . God these little motors produce some amount of vibration . I had to fit 2 batons to lift the turntable away from the base . Once this was done I was rewarded with improvements in all areas and I'm well pleased . I have to say that you were right Andy , the flimsy baseboard was robbing the GL75 of some of its potential . Great upgrade :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy I glued the inner piece back into the outer metal casing . This is what I have now after I pushed the inner cartridge back into the metal rectangular casing , after I cleaned everything up first .

TBH , looking at the state of it I think this has happened before and the person who sold it to me has dubbed things up in order to get rid .

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w2/brian2957/P1010824_zpsxz1y6utr.jpg (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/brian2957/media/P1010824_zpsxz1y6utr.jpg.html)

The cartridge looks ok TBH it's the generator in the inner casing that's the most important thing. A lot of companies get rid of casing altogether, look at the A95 from Ortofon and some of the high end Van dan Hul carts, several thousand quid for a cartridge with no casing!! I hope the wooden headshell stabilises things for you.



Well , I fitted the new 12mm ply baseboard today . Unfortunately this produced a problem . The motor was touching the base . God these little motors produce some amount of vibration . I had to fit 2 batons to lift the turntable away from the base . Once this was done I was rewarded with improvements in all areas and I'm well pleased . I have to say that you were right Andy , the flimsy baseboard was robbing the GL75 of some of its potential . Great upgrade :D

Welcome to world of turntable modding! I'm glad the mod worked. Thorens used to do the same mod with the TD150/160. I'm now beginning to believe that the Lenco really does benefit from careful vibration supression and added rigidity whenever possible. It should be possible for you to bolt your current bearing to the new base board, thus stiffening up the bearing even further, this should be pretty simple to do and not balls up the deck.

[brian2957]

The generator had come out of the metal casing . TBH it was loose in the first place , so I put a little glue in the casing and pushed it back in . I'm now waiting for the Wooden body to make an appearance and we'll take it from there . I will have to remove the base and give it a coat of paint . Judging by todays performance it will be a permanent feature Andy . Thanks for the advice :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Lenco Reference Pt XXIV - End of the road.....NAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

It is the end of the road for 2016 (nearly), approx 9 hours. The Lenco has come a long way since we first started this thread and it still has some way to go. I have recently ordered the new JICO neoSAS M55E stylus replacement for $211, a more exotic (and expensive $400) version exists but it dosen't fit my build ethos in that is the extra expense really going to give me such as massive boost. Part of the Lenco's build ethos has been to use cheap tweaks to get maximum value for money. Sometimes you just have to spend the money and sometimes with a little lateral thinking you can save a packet and get the same results. For me the new stylus was a no-brainer I was completely bowled over by the M55e's performance so any tweak to get more from the cart is always worth exploring and the cheap $41 intro stylus from JICO was a revelation for the price point. I also intend to do a little messing around with a home made isolation platform, birch ply should work well thanks very much and I might treat myself to some oak cones or some new feet, previous experiments on my 1210 and Garrard 301 have brought positive results so I'm hoping to get a similar results on the 75. I now think that I have exhausted all the tweaks available to me over on Lenco Heaven. I have found a French Lenco forum but it's contents are rather limited and not as comprehensive as LH. Bracing the bearing to increase the rigidity of its mounting has given me a small but easily heard improvement in the soundstage, total cost was under £2!!! The thing that pisses me off the most is bunk'um and there have been a few area's where I nearly got sucked in. The first being the Jean Nantais spring mod. I decided that after careful thought lots of forum research and lots of questions to Lenco guru's that this tweak was a waste of 70 Euro's. I also nearly went down the road of dampening the idler arm. I can understand why people do this because the idler arm will vibrate like a bugger if it's properly set up, set the thing up properly and your ok. Plinth composition has been another bone of contention for me. Plinth builders will happily charge MEGA ££££££ for designs that have no proof of improvement apart from the builders claims, so for me Birch ply is cheap, cheerful and does the job. I will not be making 2017's plinth from some exotic wood, or experimenting with slate. I will be making the design simple and adding mass and maybe spend some money on a very nice exotic veneer. :)

The tonearm is probably going to be the next area of experimentation. I've had to produce a "heath/robinson" method of mounting the tonearm to the top plate which is by no means perfect and probably impeding the performance of the 75. Running stacked platters is problematic but the benefits outweight the negatives. I really need an additional 5mm's height on the tonearm pillar and at this moment I don't have it. This means that the ability to correctly align the base of the M55e to the record surface is compromised and I have to be really careful not to use warped records as this can cause the cartridge to skip and jump :doh:. I have recently played around with the tonearm's geometry and can report back that I got a nice improvement with the soundstage so it would appear the tonearm needs sorting!! These little tweaks will keep me going for a little longer and then it's new plinth time, I have big plans for 2017 and think that the plinth will hopefully be my last major upgrade for the '75. Mulitple tonearms with several tonearm "pods" are the order of the day. The tonearm pods will be the only area of the 75 which has not been rigidly coupled. So i think that's it for now, as always...... :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XXV - El skinto Cheapo tweeks.

Well Xmas is over and my wallet is not quite as full as it was 2 weeks ago. I decided I wanted to do the base board experiment sooner rather than later. I managed to find x4 rubber feet sitting in my tool box and an old off cut of 12mm birchply. So, the idea is simple I plonked an old rubber foot under each birchply foot which lives under my Lenco 75 and then I sat and listened and made a few notes. I also did this experiment with the deck sitting on some birch ply thinking it might add an additional layer of vibration supression. Well listening to the deck with rubber feet in place sitting on the birch ply revealed a soundstage which sounded less vibrant, sucked out and generally pants. The birch ply was removed and things were returned back to normal but with the soundstage sounding just as wide as ever, maybe a little more vibrant and maybe a tad more conhesion and space between the instruments. Interestingly motor noise has always been extremely low on my deck but it now is virtually silent. The idler arm is notorious for vibration transmission and I must admit that in the past my setup has been a little off and vibration has gone throught the idler arm. This now seems to be a thing of the past. I wonder if the rubber feet have drained a little more motor vibration away from the top plate and bearing into my hifi rack? Things are sounding better than ever. So I've decided to spend a few quid on various different feet for the Lenco to see if further improvements can be made. It looks like I'm reaching the limit with regards how far to dampen the Lenco I've learned to recognise that horrible situation when you've gone too far and the soundstage goes from excellent to crap and the birchply was maybe one step too far. I'm still not fully convinced and may experiment a littl further with the birchply isolation board. Ah well, upwards and onwards........ :wave:

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy . I have some birch ply to hand and I'll have a play tomorrow . I've got some Sorbathane and I'll have a look in my box to see what else there is .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thanks Andy . I have some birch ply to hand and I'll have a play tomorrow . I've got some Sorbathane and I'll have a look in my box to see what else there is .

Sounds like a great starting point. Let me know how you get on mate!

[brian2957]

Sounds like a great starting point. Let me know how you get on mate!

Will do Andy :)

[stevie7v]

Happy New Year Guys and thanks for a wonderful thread. I've just completed the whole thing (so far). I bet you thought no one else was out there. :)

I'm about to embark on my own GL75 project although at the moment I'm working on the preamplifier, power amps and speakers. Still, 2017...

I'm not planning to go quite the same way as you guys - I'll use a different arm and MC cartridge which I guess is personal preference.

Specific to my philosophy. I think that the speaker/floor interface is crucial to the sound of the turntable and contrary to conventional thinking, I decouple my speakers rather than spike them (I use 'superballs' mounted in doorstops, the assembly inverted and bolted in in place of spikes - cheap but highly effective). To match, I plan to use the heavy T/T plinth as a vibration sink but then spike it to the floor, rather than further isolate. I look forward to seeing how that turns out.

I'm left with a question regarding your non-use of the PTP 6 plate. I'm thinking about it. Were there considerations other than cost and a desire to keep it GL? Are there SQ considerations?

On that subject, have you considered using Corian as part of the plinth?

Anyway, thanks once more for posting such a great thread, especially the indomitable Andy and Brian, your trusty sidekick. I hope it continues into 2017.

Warmest regards
Steve

[brian2957]

Thanks Steve , it's really Andy who does all the work . I'm trying to beep my GL75 as near stock as possible . There are however lots of smaller covert modifications which can be done , and are very effective at improving the SQ .

Sometime this year I hope to heavily modify another GL75 and I'll be using this thread as my guide :)

I've got a feeling that Andy isn't finished yet Steve :D

[Jimbo]

Brian did the M55e get repaired / sorted? Sorry to see it came to a bit if grief. Did you try the M44-7 cartridge with the M55 stylus?

[brian2957]

I got the wooden body in the other day James and when I built it all up the cartridge was down on one channel . I've managed to buy another one at a decent price and I will fit it into the Snakewood body and fit the Jico stylus . Here's hoping this time James :)

Haven't tried the Jico stylus in the M44-7 yet James .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Happy New Year Guys and thanks for a wonderful thread. I've just completed the whole thing (so far). I bet you thought no one else was out there. :)

I'm about to embark on my own GL75 project although at the moment I'm working on the preamplifier, power amps and speakers. Still, 2017...

I'm not planning to go quite the same way as you guys - I'll use a different arm and MC cartridge which I guess is personal preference.

Specific to my philosophy. I think that the speaker/floor interface is crucial to the sound of the turntable and contrary to conventional thinking, I decouple my speakers rather than spike them (I use 'superballs' mounted in doorstops, the assembly inverted and bolted in in place of spikes - cheap but highly effective). To match, I plan to use the heavy T/T plinth as a vibration sink but then spike it to the floor, rather than further isolate. I look forward to seeing how that turns out.

I'm left with a question regarding your non-use of the PTP 6 plate. I'm thinking about it. Were there considerations other than cost and a desire to keep it GL? Are there SQ considerations?

On that subject, have you considered using Corian as part of the plinth?

Anyway, thanks once more for posting such a great thread, especially the indomitable Andy and Brian, your trusty sidekick. I hope it continues into 2017.

Warmest regards
Steve

Steve, thanks for reading the thread, hoped you like it. Now with regards speakers I prefer a heavy mass approach. Vibrations never actually go anywhere and I think you have to use whatever works for you. I've never been one for conventional wisdom and think experimentation and trusting your ears are worth more than believing 95% of the stuff thats posted on the net. I sit my speakers on sand filled atacama stands they each weight 56Kg and I have them sitting on 12mm sorbothane which acts to dampen cabinet resonance. I've also spiked speakers to the floor in the past to great effect. With regards your TT I'd just make a simple TT stand for your wall. You can't argue with a few tons of bricks sitting additional tonnes of concrete footings, this is about as heavy mass as your going to get. I think the '75 really do need heavy mass with regards plinth. The only reason I didn't go down the route of PTP is because I'm a tight wad :eek: and believe that I can get pretty much the same results with a carefully modded '75. The PTP6 optimises everything down to a bare minimum which is something I've also done with this build. I always try and removed everything that's not needed. In theory I could removed the speed selector and the on/off switch from this current build but choose and use my nigels Speed controller and the Jean Nantais mod with the idler spring. I like the noise I get from my 75 so for the time being will leave them alone. The speed selector and on/off switch are both connected to a decent bit of rigid metalwork under the top plate some I'm happy that vibration is going to have a hard time travelling very far. I've never tried using Corian but I do at some point intend using bentonite clay and marine resin. I've already got one one top plate filled with marine resin and as yet it remains untested. I'd also counsel caution on some of the bumph published on slate and CLD designs, nobody really knows the best CLD design and slate will vary from one mine to the next. Birch ply is a pretty constant variable it's probably not the best material but is cheaper than using solid wood and probably just as good.


Thanks Steve , it's really Andy who does all the work . I'm trying to beep my GL75 as near stock as possible . There are however lots of smaller covert modifications which can be done , and are very effective at improving the SQ .

Sometime this year I hope to heavily modify another GL75 and I'll be using this thread as my guide :)

I've got a feeling that Andy isn't finished yet Steve :D

Brian, should be a good project for you especially now we've figured out what seems to work and what seems to be a red herring. As you've guessed there is still loads to do before the end of the road, mainly now just experiments with materials. I've a few tweaks I'd like to definitely cross off the list. I should really publish a list of things which I'm not going to do. Maybe I should publish a road map of development for the '75 in 2017.

[brian2957]

Aye that's a great idea Andy . If I knew where you were going next I would probably do a bit of reading in advance :)

[Jimbo]

I got the wooden body in the other day James and when I built it all up the cartridge was down on one channel . I've managed to buy another one at a decent price and I will fit it into the Snakewood body and fit the Jico stylus . Here's hoping this time James :)

Haven't tried the Jico stylus in the M44-7 yet James .

Great, there are plenty of cartridge bodies out there so good you got another.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I can't wait till I get the new neoSAS stylus. I really need to get my arse into gear and get my tonearm properly mounted. I can feel another update coming along soon!!

[Jimbo]

Steve, thanks for reading the thread, hoped you like it. Now with regards speakers I prefer a heavy mass approach. Vibrations never actually go anywhere and I think you have to use whatever works for you. I've never been one for conventional wisdom and think experimentation and trusting your ears are worth more than believing 95% of the stuff thats posted on the net. I sit my speakers on sand filled atacama stands they each weight 56Kg and I have them sitting on 12mm sorbothane which acts to dampen cabinet resonance. I've also spiked speakers to the floor in the past to great effect. With regards your TT I'd just make a simple TT stand for your wall. You can't argue with a few tons of bricks sitting additional tonnes of concrete footings, this is about as heavy mass as your going to get. I think the '75 really do need heavy mass with regards plinth. The only reason I didn't go down the route of PTP is because I'm a tight wad :eek: and believe that I can get pretty much the same results with a carefully modded '75. The PTP6 optimises everything down to a bare minimum which is something I've also done with this build. I always try and removed everything that's not needed. In theory I could removed the speed selector and the on/off switch from this current build but choose and use my nigels Speed controller and the Jean Nantais mod with the idler spring. I like the noise I get from my 75 so for the time being will leave them alone. The speed selector and on/off switch are both connected to a decent bit of rigid metalwork under the top plate some I'm happy that vibration is going to have a hard time travelling very far. I've never tried using Corian but I do at some point intend using bentonite clay and marine resin. I've already got one one top plate filled with marine resin and as yet it remains untested. I'd also counsel caution on some of the bumph published on slate and CLD designs, nobody really knows the best CLD design and slate will vary from one mine to the next. Birch ply is a pretty constant variable it's probably not the best material but is cheaper than using solid wood and probably just as good.



Brian, should be a good project for you especially now we've figured out what seems to work and what seems to be a red herring. As you've guessed there is still loads to do before the end of the road, mainly now just experiments with materials. I've a few tweaks I'd like to definitely cross off the list. I should really publish a list of things which I'm not going to do. Maybe I should publish a road map of development for the '75 in 2017.

Andy the Americans sit a lot if their decks on huge maple blocks 3-4 inch thick with good results. Maybe another possible tweek to sit the Lenco on when it's finished? Just a thought.:)

[brian2957]

Andy the Americans sit a lot if their decks on huge maple blocks 3-4 inch thick with good results. Maybe another possible tweek to sit the Lenco on when it's finished? Just a thought.:)

Hah ! Don't put more ideas into his head James . I think he already has enough :lol:

[brian2957]

Great, there are plenty of cartridge bodies out there so good you got another.

Hopefully this one won't fall apart James :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy the Americans sit a lot if their decks on huge maple blocks 3-4 inch thick with good results. Maybe another possible tweek to sit the Lenco on when it's finished? Just a thought.:)


:no::no::no::no: Dont put these things in my head! I think you need to do some research around Luthier. Loads of stuff on the net about the tone of wood affecting how a TT sounds. It's all based around how the wood distorts vibrational energy one one Hz to another Hz. Not the most accurate way of describing things, I've had a few beers!

[Wakefield Turntables]

PS Jim, thanks for the heads up on the tweak! Please dont think the last post was confrontational. :)

[brian2957]

PS Jim, thanks for the heads up on the tweak! Please dont think the last post was confrontational. :)

Lol...Doesn't come across as confrontational Andy . Enjoy your beer :)

[Jimbo]

PS Jim, thanks for the heads up on the tweak! Please dont think the last post was confrontational. :)

Not at all Andy:)

[stevie7v]

Steve, thanks for reading the thread, hoped you like it. Now with regards speakers I prefer a heavy mass approach.

I do too. :)


With regards your TT I'd just make a simple TT stand for your wall. You can't argue with a few tons of bricks sitting additional tonnes of concrete footings, this is about as heavy mass as your going to get. I think the '75 really do need heavy mass with regards plinth.

Unfortunately, that's not an option for me as I can only use a partition wall unless I have a very long interconnect. I'll have to use the floor.


In theory I could removed the speed selector and the on/off switch from this current build but choose and use my nigels Speed controller and the Jean Nantais mod with the idler spring.

Is this the one where the spring is replaced by a weight on thread? Does it work?

Have you looked into Frank's DC Motor retrofit (from Lenco Heaven)? It looks interesting and YouTube videos demonstrate lower vibrations but, once again, does it improve SQ?

I agree with your methodology of try/listen/decide but it's often not easy when £$£$ is involved. :scratch:

[helma]

Tonights Update - The Reference Lenco Pt XXV - El skinto Cheapo tweeks.

Well Xmas is over and my wallet is not quite as full as it was 2 weeks ago. I decided I wanted to do the base board experiment sooner rather than later. I managed to find x4 rubber feet sitting in my tool box and an old off cut of 12mm birchply. So, the idea is simple I plonked an old rubber foot under each birchply foot which lives under my Lenco 75 and then I sat and listened and made a few notes. I also did this experiment with the deck sitting on some birch ply thinking it might add an additional layer of vibration supression. Well listening to the deck with rubber feet in place sitting on the birch ply revealed a soundstage which sounded less vibrant, sucked out and generally pants. The birch ply was removed and things were returned back to normal but with the soundstage sounding just as wide as ever, maybe a little more vibrant and maybe a tad more conhesion and space between the instruments. Interestingly motor noise has always been extremely low on my deck but it now is virtually silent. The idler arm is notorious for vibration transmission and I must admit that in the past my setup has been a little off and vibration has gone throught the idler arm. This now seems to be a thing of the past. I wonder if the rubber feet have drained a little more motor vibration away from the top plate and bearing into my hifi rack? Things are sounding better than ever. So I've decided to spend a few quid on various different feet for the Lenco to see if further improvements can be made. It looks like I'm reaching the limit with regards how far to dampen the Lenco I've learned to recognise that horrible situation when you've gone too far and the soundstage goes from excellent to crap and the birchply was maybe one step too far. I'm still not fully convinced and may experiment a littl further with the birchply isolation board. Ah well, upwards and onwards........ :wave:

Interested in hearing your thoughts on different feet once you get there :) I have three-layered feet - basically hockey pucks sandwiched between rubber foam. I thought they did an ok job, but I got around to experimenting and made additional springy feet using some low glass jars and rubberbands, basically the same idea as found on this image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4190901485_c88f217643.jpg - the improvement was clear and interestingly 'groove noise' got more silent, which probably means there was some vibration still finding it's way through that's now been dealt with by the feet. Also there was a certain 'haze' around bass and lower midband that seemed to disappear. Never noticed that 'haze' before to be honest, only realized it used to be there after it was gone.

My Lenco is by no means a heavyweight, the plinth dimensions are 60cm x 40cm x 9cm - a 18mm bamboo layer on top and bottom and 3*18mm acacia in the middle. I also used a thin layer of acrylic mass as glue between the bamboo and acacia layers, don't know if it was a bad or good idea honestly, it was just a spur of the moment decision when putting the plinth together. I imagine the acrylic is more of an "another layer" than wood glue bond would've been. The plinth + deck together weigh around 15kg I imagine, give or take a few. It's sitting on a (too flimsy) wall shelf. Upgrading that wall shelf would be a no-brainer and perhaps decoupling it from the wall somehow. A new plinth is coming somewhere in the future, the current one was just something "quickly put together" from stuff I had available - but all-in I've probably put way more time into it and than I would've building a proper one from scratch...

I think the great thing about Lencos is they do the basics so well right out the box, providing a very musically satisfying sound and with each (succesful) tweak you get more audiophilia out of them without loosing that basic "rightness". I haven't taken mine very far from stock, I imagine it could still be improved a lot but I'm so happy with it right now can't be bothered to mess with it.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I do too. :)

Unfortunately, that's not an option for me as I can only use a partition wall unless I have a very long interconnect. I'll have to use the floor.
Is this the one where the spring is replaced by a weight on thread? Does it work?
Have you looked into Frank's DC Motor retrofit (from Lenco Heaven)? It looks interesting and YouTube videos demonstrate lower vibrations but, once again, does it improve SQ?I agree with your methodology of try/listen/decide but it's often not easy when £$£$ is involved. :scratch:

Steve, the floor not the best solution unless it's concrete. The deck will rattle like a good'un if it's wooden floor boards or laminate, best bet hear is either a decent rack or something with lots of mass to plonk your deck on. The Jean Nantais mod is indeed the one where the spring is replaced with a small weight and a bit of fishing line. I have no idea if it works but lots of people claim that it does and good for them! I'll be sticking with the standard method of idler wheel implentation i.e. the on/off switch. It lives on a pretty rigid column of metal which should help vibration transmission, I've also dampened my on/off mechanism and there are several other mods which should further reduce/eliminate vibration getting from the top plate into the on/off switch and then back into the bearing and platter. I've not tried Frank DC's motor but I have seen it and shall be doing some research to see if it's a viable alternative to what I already have. I will say that my ability to alter voltage via the Nigel Speed Controller, a decent motor service and correctly setting up the motor isolation springs should pretty much remove all vibration getting into the top plate. Still we could probably go further I suppose and try the Frank DC motor :eyebrows:.




Interested in hearing your thoughts on different feet once you get there :) I have three-layered feet - basically hockey pucks sandwiched between rubber foam. I thought they did an ok job, but I got around to experimenting and made additional springy feet using some low glass jars and rubberbands, basically the same idea as found on this image: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4007/4190901485_c88f217643.jpg - the improvement was clear and interestingly 'groove noise' got more silent, which probably means there was some vibration still finding it's way through that's now been dealt with by the feet. Also there was a certain 'haze' around bass and lower midband that seemed to disappear. Never noticed that 'haze' before to be honest, only realized it used to be there after it was gone.

My Lenco is by no means a heavyweight, the plinth dimensions are 60cm x 40cm x 9cm - a 18mm bamboo layer on top and bottom and 3*18mm acacia in the middle. I also used a thin layer of acrylic mass as glue between the bamboo and acacia layers, don't know if it was a bad or good idea honestly, it was just a spur of the moment decision when putting the plinth together. I imagine the acrylic is more of an "another layer" than wood glue bond would've been. The plinth + deck together weigh around 15kg I imagine, give or take a few. It's sitting on a (too flimsy) wall shelf. Upgrading that wall shelf would be a no-brainer and perhaps decoupling it from the wall somehow. A new plinth is coming somewhere in the future, the current one was just something "quickly put together" from stuff I had available - but all-in I've probably put way more time into it and than I would've building a proper one from scratch...

I think the great thing about Lencos is they do the basics so well right out the box, providing a very musically satisfying sound and with each (succesful) tweak you get more audiophilia out of them without loosing that basic "rightness". I haven't taken mine very far from stock, I imagine it could still be improved a lot but I'm so happy with it right now can't be bothered to mess with it.

Hi Kai, always good to hear from you. You make some interesting points. I couldn't agree with you more with regards knowing when you've done something to the deck and the soundstage improves, sometimes it's night and day and sometimes you think you could be a trick of the mind. There is no logic as to why sometimes things work and then they don't. It's the old wisdom of trusting your ears. The mass of a plinth is probably less important than you think. I've heard that a plinth made from Bentonite clay+marine resin can produce significantly better dampening than a plinth weighing many tens of Kg's. I think my deck and plinth weigh roughly the same as yours somewhere between 15-20kg. The deck sounds great. I also think you are 100% correct with regards how the Lenco just produces things with "correct" presentation, Lenco's don't need very much tweeking and you can get fantastic results with small incremental mods.


Not at all Andy:)

Phew!!!

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight Update - The Reference Lenco - Pt XXVI - Roadmap.

I need to get a little more focus with regards how this project is going. So January is going to be the month of the Tonearm. I've been playing around with a "loosely" coupled tonearm over the last 6 months and it produces a very nice sound but I think it's high time I got series and really looked into what I'm going to do with the tonearm on the current plinth that I own. I don't have space to decouple the tonearm with the top plate and onto the plinth which is what I would like to do so I'm going to go down the route of rigidly coupling the tonearm to the top plate. Ultimately the tonearms will be de-coupled and mounted on custom made pods and then housed in a new plinth at some point in 2017. Setting up the Alphason is a doddle and I can easily get the correct tonearm geometry alignment but I can't seem to get enough clearence from the base of the cartridge when sitting parallel to the vinyl. Playing a warped record can be a scary ordeal! The problem with warped vinyl made me think about using a record weight and I purchased a 1.2kg monster from eBay. Not only does this flatten out vinyl but it should also improve the amount of rumble generated from the Jollyon bearing. I can't prove the record weight improve bearing rumble but at least it markedly decreases the chances of me knackering up my cartridge. I've read many reports from various hi-fi mags with regards bearing rumble with and without a record weight being used and most usually quote 0.1 - 0.3db imrovement, ok not much but this is supposed to be a reference Lenco so any improvement is well within the ethos of this build. Cartridge selection is also an important of the build. I'm already sold on the Denon 103M and the current Shure MM cartridge but it's the configuration of these cartridges which is important so I shall be playing around with various spacers which add mass and dampening to these cartridges to try and further improve the sonics. The idea over the next few weeks is to spend as little as possible and experiment with what I have, so I hope to finally come up with my "preferred" setup with the bits of kit already on the Lenco. I have decided that I shall not be pursuing any spring modifications, the 16rpm mod or dampening the idler arm. This lots should keep me busy in January and hopefully I should have some idea where the "roadmap" is going in Feb. As always.... :wave:

[stevie7v]

Steve, the floor not the best solution unless it's concrete. The deck will rattle like a good'un if it's wooden floor boards or laminate, best bet hear is either a decent rack or something with lots of mass to plonk your deck on.
Hi.

As I said, my deck will be placed on a plenty-massive plinth and only then spiked to the floor. So far I've managed to test this using a stethoscope and it works fine.

Regards
Steve

[brian2957]

I bought a record weight and wasn't keen on it . I thought it caused a bit of 'dryness' to the sound . Probably taking away a bit of the character of the turntable caused by rumble :) I'll have to experiment with it again.
I was wondering when you'd get round to the arm again Andy . I'll be keeping an eye on this for a future project . Unfortunately I had to purchase another M55e which will hopefully arrive in the next few days . I can then fit the Jico stylus and the Snakewood body and take it from there .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I bought a record weight and wasn't keen on it . I thought it caused a bit of 'dryness' to the sound . Probably taking away a bit of the character of the turntable caused by rumble :) I'll have to experiment with it again.
I was wondering when you'd get round to the arm again Andy . I'll be keeping an eye on this for a future project . Unfortunately I had to purchase another M55e which will hopefully arrive in the next few days . I can then fir the Jico stylus and the Snakewood body and take it from there .

Horses for courses I think Brian. I just use the weight so I dont knackered up the cartridge. I think alongside the other mods that the weight works quite well and a little self indulgent bling to the project. ;) I'm just about to go shopping for some M3 thread and other gubbins. :eyebrows:

[Jimbo]

I have tried clamps and weights and would prefer a weight. I have noticed when you add weight you usually get a better defined bass to the sound. Curious to know what benefits if any you have found using a weight?

I must admit I use a clamp on my VPI but usually to flatten records. With nice flat 180g vinyl I usually leave it off.

Not sure how much weight the bearing on the Lenco will take but probably a reasonable amount?

[brian2957]

That's one of my concerns James , the GL75 doesn't come with a weight does it ? Could be damaging the bearing in some way or another .

I find when I use the clamp that everything does indeed '' tighten '' up . Almost like a digital type of sound which I do like , but I've been trying to get a different type of '' analogue'' sound with the turntable .

[Jimbo]

I think weights need to be reasonably substantial Brian and it would concern me how this would affect the bearing on the Lenco which is a bit fragile compared to some modern bearings out there. Also the bearing interface with the top plate is not that substantial and may result in some flexing although that bearing collar mount you have may have stiffened this bit?

[brian2957]

I'm more concerned about the excessive wear on the thrust pad that the extra weight might cause .

[Jimbo]

Ah yes forgot about that! Without going back through the whole post had Andy changed his bearing and spindle ?

[brian2957]

Yes , Andy now has the heavier Jolyon bearing http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9739.0

[ianlenco]

I'm more concerned about the excessive wear on the thrust pad that the extra weight might cause .

Some of the guys on Lenco Heaven have doubled up the platters using a standard bearing and reported no extra wear after considerable time so I doubt whether a record weight would damage your thrust pad. Most pads I've seen (quite a few) have a dimple in them anyway and an old trick is to flip the pad over if you're concerned about the dimple.

Cheers, Ian

[brian2957]

Ah... I forgot about that Ian . You're probably right :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

. I have noticed when you add weight you usually get a better defined bass to the sound. Curious to know what benefits if any you have found using a weight?

Not sure how much weight the bearing on the Lenco will take but probably a reasonable amount?

Yep bass seems taughter alongside black backgrounds. The lenco can take ALOT of weight. I have x2 stacked platters and a 1.2kg weight, it spins around very nicely makes a very very nice sound. Don't be fooled even though the little Lenco bearing looks quite piddly compared to others on the market it actually punches well above it's weight. It will outperform or equal the performance of any after market bearing with some very careful mods.




I think weights need to be reasonably substantial Brian and it would concern me how this would affect the bearing on the Lenco which is a bit fragile compared to some modern bearings out there. Also the bearing interface with the top plate is not that substantial and may result in some flexing although that bearing collar mount you have may have stiffened this bit?

I'm going to disagree here Jim. I ran the original Lenco bearing for 6-8 months with stacked platters and the weight and saw no deterioration of the bearings function. I do agree with you that it looks puny compared to some bearings out there. The mounting of the bearing onto the top plate is pretty flimsy and does indeed benefit from a large mounting collar. I think the Jollyon mounting collar is probably the best and most rigid way of coupling the bearing to the top plate.


I'm more concerned about the excessive wear on the thrust pad that the extra weight might cause .

Brian, thrust pads cost pennies and can be easily replaced. We can both probably service and strip the original bearing down in 10 minutes flat!! I wouldn't worry about thrust pad usage.



Yes , Andy now has the heavier Jolyon bearing http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=9739.0

Yep, big improvement over the standard. :cool:


Some of the guys on Lenco Heaven have doubled up the platters using a standard bearing and reported no extra wear after considerable time so I doubt whether a record weight would damage your thrust pad. Most pads I've seen (quite a few) have a dimple in them anyway and an old trick is to flip the pad over if you're concerned about the dimple.

Cheers, Ian

I mirror your findings Ian except the dimple in thrust pad is supposed to be there and your not supposed to turn it over, this buggers up the tracking of the bearing. :doh:

[Jimbo]

Good to hear how much the Lenco bearing can take, I may well buy a very nice heavy VPI weight so I can use on both the Lenco and VPI Scout 1.1.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Buggering about with tonearms..... Boring and frustrating.