LENCO - GL75 Project

[walpurgis]

By the way. Despite metal idlers being favoured, I'm fairly sure the plastic items are at least as good if not better. They are more inert for a start, so less prone to resonance or transmitting vibrations.

[brian2957]

They don't seem to be favoured on LencoHeaven for some reason Geoff.

[walpurgis]

They don't seem to be favoured on LencoHeaven for some reason Geoff.

I know. But I have several and they all run true with no warps and as I say they are pretty inert. The only drawback really, is that plastic idlers will all be old and the rubber edges have a finite life. However, there is a potential fix for those.

[brian2957]

Is it cheaper than 54 Euros ? :D

[walpurgis]

Is it cheaper than 54 Euros ? :D

Probably! :)

I was thinking rectangular section 57mm i/d rubber (not silicone) 'O' rings with the outer face accurately ground to a finely radiused 'V'.

I can probably cut suitable rings if I can find unreinforced pure rubber hose the right width. Or 4.5mm sheet.

And, yes. You can grind rubber. That's how some turntable belts are finished.

[brian2957]

Please keep us posted on this one mate . I for one would certainly be interested .

[Jimbo]

Well 54 euros is quite expensive but I wonder if it's needed? I mean the old idler wheel in your deck is probably approaching 40 years old and the one in my Garrard is >50years old, they both probably work really well. But, a new idler has less wear and probably is probably even thickness which is something that worries me about my Lenco. Some members over on LH report reduced vibration into the platter, but how can they tell? Some report that the deck starts quicker and seems to be quiter, but, we have no idea of their deck's construction. It looks like the new idler wheels do make an improvement but again I think I would like to "know" the house sound of my Lenco before I start spending £54 on a new idler wheel. Just out of interest have you seen an other members making similar products?

The rubber on the outer edge of the idler wheel can be prone to flat spots which can cause issues with noise on the platter. To get these sorted I believe the options are:
1 New idler wheel
2 Idler wheel rubber is ground back to perfect even depth on the idler wheel.
I think Dom at Northwest Analogue can do this.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another night, another update! IT'S ALIVE!! IT'S ALIVE!!!

Tonight has been about getting the basics of the deck sorted. Speedy Steve finally came through with the excellently made Alphason collar mount, it fits and works perfectly with the '75.

Tracking weight. The JICO SAS replacement stylus for the M55E is quoted as tracking from 0.75g to 2g, have you tried doing 2g with this cart? Maybe it's because the collar is only held in place temorarily, but I was getting mistracking at 2g so I'm down to about 1.6g until I can get the collar properly mounted and fully level. The Alphason is shown to be tracking here at 1.9g but it's more like 1.6g.

18066


I get Dr. Feckhart's protractor out and checked alignment, the Alphason was spot on for Lofgren A, so no problems here. A few other basics checks revealed spindle to pivot distance of 211mm and measured effective length at ~228mm. Tonearm looked pretty parallel to vinyl but the mounting collar for the tonearm is not properly mounted so this is bound to be off. Still makes a nice sound!


18067

The deck is at least level!

18068


The first picture of the deck actually playing a bit of music. I'm now back down to single platter for the moment and as mentioned I will be fine tweeking the setup of the deck of the next few days/weeks. Usual stuff like offset and overhang angles, are all to be checked out and of course I'll do some pix to assess how parallel the cart to vinyl appears. I also decided to ditch my old Lenco mat and swap for my Garrard 301. The old 301 mat was king o' the crop for ages before being ousted by the Tenuto gunmetal platter mat, so I kinda figured that it might give the '75 a little extra dampening. I'll probably do a little experimenting with my copper record puck as well to see if that helps the musical presentation.

18069

I decided I wanted to clean up the power supply going into the '75. This is the Russian power filter I bought off eBay for £55 it has the same circuit that Lamm amplifiers use to filter power supply.

18070

Right that's it for tonight I'm ker-Knackered!!!

[brian2957]

Very nice Andrew . I look forward to your findings in all of this work .

The new plinth looks very nice indeed.

I've been tracking mine at around 1.5g . I'll put mine up to 2g when I get a chance and report back .

[Jimbo]

If it's. JICO SAS stylus in an M55 cartridge then maximum tracking weight is 1.5g. Mine is quoted at 0.75 - 1.5g

[Wakefield Turntables]

If it's. JICO SAS stylus in an M55 cartridge then maximum tracking weight is 1.5g. Mine is quoted at 0.75 - 1.5g

This is the cheap £40 version and not the expensive variant.

[Jimbo]

This is the cheap £40 version and not the expensive variant.

Ah then that will not be an SAS stylus but the Jico N55 replacement. Tracking weight I think is up to 2g for that stylus. I have this one too and track about 1.8g.

[helma]

A word on the idler wheels, I have the 54 euro one from lencoheaven bought something over a year ago. I think overtime the guy making them has had to use different rubbers, so they might not all be the same. I also have an original aluminum 5-hole idler, but it is bent. I got the new one with the intention to have a go at fixing the old one, I figure since it's made of pretty soft material there's a chance I might be able to whack it true with some careful hammer work. Haven't got around to it though.

I don't feel the new idler was an upgrade on the original, other than not being bent... but the rubber on my original one is still really supple and not hardened at all, so with the 50 year old idlers I figure there probably won't be two which have aged exactly alike... Neither idler was/is prone to rumble, but what little comes through (when turning up the volume way beyond sane listening levels) the rumble charachteristics seem different, as I recall with the original wheel what comes through was very low frequency while with the new one there seemed to be less very low freq rumble but relative more higher up in frequency, my guess is because of different rubber compounds. But again, this is cranking up the volume to levels that would make my Kef 104aBs explode if there actually was a signal coming through. In practice both do a good job on that front.

The new wheel seems well made and does the job just fine, but if you have an original wheel in good shape, I don't really think it's an upgrade, just slightly different. But good option to have around and all in all, 54 euros seemed a pretty fair price to me for a well made idler wheel, especially taking into consideration it's not exactly mass produced.

[Wakefield Turntables]

A word on the idler wheels, I have the 54 euro one from lencoheaven bought something over a year ago. I think overtime the guy making them has had to use different rubbers, so they might not all be the same. I also have an original aluminum 5-hole idler, but it is bent. I got the new one with the intention to have a go at fixing the old one, I figure since it's made of pretty soft material there's a chance I might be able to whack it true with some careful hammer work. Haven't got around to it though.

I don't feel the new idler was an upgrade on the original, other than not being bent... but the rubber on my original one is still really supple and not hardened at all, so with the 50 year old idlers I figure there probably won't be two which have aged exactly alike... Neither idler was/is prone to rumble, but what little comes through (when turning up the volume way beyond sane listening levels) the rumble charachteristics seem different, as I recall with the original wheel what comes through was very low frequency while with the new one there seemed to be less very low freq rumble but relative more higher up in frequency, my guess is because of different rubber compounds. But again, this is cranking up the volume to levels that would make my Kef 104aBs explode if there actually was a signal coming through. In practice both do a good job on that front.

The new wheel seems well made and does the job just fine, but if you have an original wheel in good shape, I don't really think it's an upgrade, just slightly different. But good option to have around and all in all, 54 euros seemed a pretty fair price to me for a well made idler wheel, especially taking into consideration it's not exactly mass produced.

Kai, that's an excellent post and thanks for your honesty. I'm still sitting on the fence with regards buying any new idler wheel's, the 54 Euro's could be better spent elsewhere.

[Wakefield Turntables]

More!

I think the cartridge is now parallel to the vinyl.

18078

Tonearm is now parallel and the antibias is set correctly. The tonearm collar is mounted properly and the cart now tracks like a Shure should, extremely well at 2g. The bass is deep and well defined less taught than my 1210 reference system but there again I'm comparing a £63 cartridge against a £4.70 Ortofon cadenza black/ SME V combination :lol:. Tomorrow I'll have a look at the spindle to idler wheel position, it should be 115mm (I think) and also platter speed stability, altough this variable will be pretty useless when the speed controller arrives. Now, the next few days are just going to be spent learning the sonic characteristics of the deck and then Frankenbearing starts to make an appearence.

[brian2957]

I was using my M55e / JICO cartridge at 1.5g . I'll try mine at 2g tomorrow and see how it changes the SQ . Bit busy today building bedroom furniture :rolleyes:

Be interesting to see what you think of the various '' upgrades '' to the bearing Andy .

[Jimbo]

More!

I think the cartridge is now parallel to the vinyl.

18078

Tonearm is now parallel and the antibias is set correctly. The tonearm collar is mounted properly and the cart now tracks like a Shure should, extremely well at 2g. The bass is deep and well defined less taught than my 1210 reference system but there again I'm comparing a £63 cartridge against a £4.70 Ortofon cadenza black/ SME V combination :lol:. Tomorrow I'll have a look at the spindle to idler wheel position, it should be 115mm (I think) and also platter speed stability, altough this variable will be pretty useless when the speed controller arrives. Now, the next few days are just going to be spent learning the sonic characteristics of the deck and then Frankenbearing starts to make an appearence.

Glad it's going well Andy and you are getting some good results from the Shure cartridge. I may well be doing a bit if work on my Lenco at the weekend if I get a chance.

[brian2957]

How's the soldering going James ?

[walpurgis]

Any scorches on the table, holes in trousers, solder embedded in carpet, burned fingers? ;) :D

[Jimbo]

I have ear marked Saturday morning to have a go.:eek:

[brian2957]

I have ear marked Saturday morning to have a go.:eek:

OK James , please let us know how you get on .

[brian2957]

Andrew , have you changed the phono leads and plugs ? I found that doing this made a difference also .

[Jimbo]

OK James , please let us know how you get on .


I will pop the bearing in aswell;)

[brian2957]

Remember the lithium grease :eyebrows:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andrew , have you changed the phono leads and plugs ? I found that doing this made a difference also .

what to the tonearm? I'm using a spare Nordost TYR tonearm cable I had, it's got eichmann silver bullets fitted. The power lead into the deck is just some power cable I had in the garage, the plug is a silver plated jobbie that I had sitting in my toolbox. I think the power filter will probably be the thing that improves the sonics. I'm not "big" into cables. I love Silver, I love Yannis cables, and all my power leads have decent heavy gauge copper that's well shielded, that's about it really.


Remember the lithium grease :eyebrows:

Looks like a trip to Halfords.

[brian2957]

Ooops ! Sorry Andy , I'm referring to the original arm , which you don't have . :doh:

I'm going to order some Belden cable soon .

[Jimbo]

Remember the lithium grease :eyebrows:

Got a tube ready:)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Ooops ! Sorry Andy , I'm referring to the original arm , which you don't have . :doh:

I'm going to order some Belden cable soon .

Belden cable for your power lead?

[brian2957]

Belden cable for your power lead?

Yes . I'm not sure if it will be a bit heavy for this application or not .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Yes . I'm not sure if it will be a bit heavy for this application or not .

My thoughts exactly, the weight of the cable may have some effect on the suspension springs which shield the top plAte from vibration, common wisdom is to use a light flexible power cord. Additionally don't fix the cable to the top plate as vibration from the power cord itself can get into the top plate through the motor it's better to let it dangle.

[brian2957]

I'm using a lightweight cable at the moment and I'll have a look at the Belden cable when it arrives . The cable isn't fixed anywhere on the deck . Regarding vibration , have you applied any bitumen type material to the top plate ?

[Jimbo]

I think nice thin lamp cable would do the trick chaps, I am using it and it feels similar to the original stuff.

[brian2957]

Mines didn't come with a mains cable fitted , so I wasn't sure . Thanks James :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm using a lightweight cable at the moment and I'll have a look at the Belden cable when it arrives . The cable isn't fixed anywhere on the deck . Regarding vibration , have you applied any bitumen type material to the top plate ?

Nope, no bitumen, dosen't seem to be well regarded over on LH, besides I'm still trying to get some ideas as to how this deck sounds. I don't want to over dampen. I've a birch ply plinth which sinks quite a lot of vibration, the bitumen might work well on yours, be careful it's a sod to remove, additionally this mod seems to be popular with the elastic band suspended suspension brigade :eek:

[brian2957]

Just a thought Andy . As I've had the misfortune to remove this stuff before I don't think I'll bother :)

[struth]

Sticks like shit to a blanket mate :lol:

[Jimbo]

Nope, no bitumen, dosen't seem to be well regarded over on LH, besides I'm still trying to get some ideas as to how this deck sounds. I don't want to over dampen. I've a birch ply plinth which sinks quite a lot of vibration, the bitumen might work well on yours, be careful it's a sod to remove, additionally this mod seems to be popular with the elastic band suspended suspension brigade :eek:

Agree with you there Andy about over damping - mine sounds very sweet without damping although all the rubber grommets under the top plate are still intact. I would really like to hear what the difference is between the standard plinth and a heavy modified plinth as I am not entirely convinced it makes a huge difference?

[brian2957]

Sticks like shit to a blanket mate :lol:

There's an answer to that ( it's called leading with the chin ) :ner:

[struth]

:booty: there is none in my new speaks.... at mo anyways. Which are still sounding good. Need to get over there and see the Lenco .. must get off my derriere

[walpurgis]

I'm not sure it's possible to 'overdamp' a turntable. After all, there are no benevolent resonances at this end of the system. If the cartridge, arm and arm mount interfaces are as rigid as possible, then surely the least resonance and vibration in other parts, the better?

[brian2957]

:booty: there is none in my new speaks.... at mo anyways. Which are still sounding good. Need to get over there and see the Lenco .. must get off my derriere

You know you're welcome any time Grant . Just let me know and I'll see if I'm off that day .

Your speakers were sounding very good indeed when I was over :)

[Jimbo]

I'm not sure it's possible to 'overdamp' a turntable. After all, there are no benevolent resonances at this end of the system. If the cartridge, arm and arm mount interfaces are as rigid as possible, then surely the least resonance and vibration in other parts, the better?

The particular technical aspects of the Lenco however have a lot of moving parts which maybe benefit from a bit of compliance? Rigidly coupling everything may introduce unwanted vibration or resonance which may not be noticed in a slightly compliant chassis(plinth /top plate) ? Anyway it's interesting and fun to experiment.

One thing I would add however is that unless you could listen to a completely unmodified Lenco against the modified Lenco benefits in addressing some of the 'weaknesses ' of the original design may not be as great as imagined?:)

I know for fact that there are a few folk who have changed tone arms and plinths etc on a number of Lenco's and the improvements in SQ have been marginal although they may have spent large sums of money and time in doing so.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm not sure it's possible to 'overdamp' a turntable. After all, there are no benevolent resonances at this end of the system. If the cartridge, arm and arm mount interfaces are as rigid as possible, then surely the least resonance and vibration in other parts, the better?

I agree with up about rigidity with regards vibrations and resonance getting into the tonearm and cart but this becomes pointless if the tonearm if mounted on an external pod and not part of the top plate. Additionally isn't it more with specific values of Hz that are important with regards resonance getting into the tonearm my understanding is that you should eliminate specific Hz values or "retune" specific Hz values low enough so they have no audioable (SIC? sorry im tired) effect.


Agree with you there Andy about over damping - mine sounds very sweet without damping although all the rubber grommets under the top plate are still intact. I would really like to hear what the difference is between the standard plinth and a heavy modified plinth as I am not entirely convinced it makes a huge difference?

Well I learned my lesson with my 1210, never again! I think the standard / heavy plinth experiment could be a good idea for a bake off one day! PTP audio (the guys that make the PTP plate) actually suggest using corian as a plinth material. :eek:

[Wakefield Turntables]

More on the deck.

Fettling and tweeking has well and truly started. I was going to make one of these to make sure that my idler wheel was aligned. This is a template that a LH member devised and then I thought why bother? The deck is spinning silently and the platter turns at 33.3 RPM.

18085

I also considered earth the top plate to the motor a suggested over on LH. Again I'll pass on this. The deck has no hum whatsoever I dont really want to introduce a mechanism of transferring motor vibration from the earthing lead into the top plate, so that's another mod consigned to the bin.

Some slight tweekig with the speed selector revealed I was probably going round at 34 RPM :stalks:. We now be spinning at 33.3RPM.


18086


I also played some vinyl tonight with the cart at 1.6 and 1.7g and can confirm I got some mis-tracking issues and the surface noise was greater increased so now I'm convinced that 2g (at least on this lenco) is best for tracking and surface noise with the Shure M55e and new JICO stylus. Right that's it. I think I'll be doing some bearing research soon.

[walpurgis]

I agree with up about rigidity with regards vibrations and resonance getting into the tonearm and cart but this becomes pointless if the tonearm if mounted on an external pod and not part of the top plate. Additionally isn't it more with specific values of Hz that are important with regards resonance getting into the tonearm my understanding is that you should eliminate specific Hz values or "retune" specific Hz values low enough so they have no audioable (SIC? sorry im tired) effect.

Lack of proper rigidity means vibration and movement are likely to reach the tonearm and that can superimpose cancellation and interference effects onto the signal modulations being 'read' from a record being tracked by the stylus.

Yeah. I feel knackered too today. Not done that much. Must be the weather.

[Wakefield Turntables]

No update tonight I'm spinning a DECCA Maroon on the 301. :eek: Just a few comments on the deck so far.

The soundfloor on this deck is very low and surface noise on a decent piece of vinyl is non-existant. The bass on this deck is also fantastic. My main reference for how much bass a deck can kick out is the 1210 I own. No whilst the technologies are poles apart DD v IDLER it's not to say that the bass output sufferes from such a wide chasm, it dosen't, the '75 is pretty proficient is knocking out a decent bass line and I would say that fitted with a decent cart things could be improved even further. I noticed that percussion was particular good as well. Listening to Van Halen was a pleasent experience and only something I usually experience on the 1210. The more I sit down and listen to this little deck the more I like about it. Tomorrow the Alphason gets a small upgrade!

[brian2957]

Yes I'm enjoying mine Andrew . Unfortunately I don't have another turntable to compare it with and TBH I don't really feel the need :)

[Jimbo]

No update tonight I'm spinning a DECCA Maroon on the 301. :eek: Just a few comments on the deck so far.

The soundfloor on this deck is very low and surface noise on a decent piece of vinyl is non-existant. The bass on this deck is also fantastic. My main reference for how much bass a deck can kick out is the 1210 I own. No whilst the technologies are poles apart DD v IDLER it's not to say that the bass output sufferes from such a wide chasm, it dosen't, the '75 is pretty proficient is knocking out a decent bass line and I would say that fitted with a decent cart things could be improved even further. I noticed that percussion was particular good as well. Listening to Van Halen was a pleasent experience and only something I usually experience on the 1210. The more I sit down and listen to this little deck the more I like about it. Tomorrow the Alphason gets a small upgrade!

So does the Decca get the thumbs up?

[Wakefield Turntables]

So does the Decca get the thumbs up?

YEP! :partytime:

[Jimbo]

YEP! :partytime:

Glad you had none of the horrors of setting up the Decca as others seem to have had. I thought it was fairly straight forward.

What arm are you using?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Glad you had none of the horrors of setting up the Decca as others seem to have had. I thought it was fairly straight forward.

What arm are you using?

SME 3012 (not ideal). Setting up took 5 minutes. Find a headshell, find some cart leads, set VTA, track at 2g, produce music. No brainer really!!!!!!!!!!;)

[Jimbo]

SME 3012 (not ideal). Setting up took 5 minutes. Find a headshell, find some cart leads, set VTA, track at 2g, produce music. No brainer really!!!!!!!!!!;)

Fantastic, hope you enjoy it.

[walpurgis]

I don't know where the rumours of Deccas being tricky to set up come from. I've had about ten and in various arms and never had any bother.

Oh. And they work OK in an Ittok, but sound crap with it! :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

A nice big 12" unipivot is next on the purchase list.

[Wakefield Turntables]

The poor old Lenco has taken a bit of a back seat due to the revelation on the DECCA Maroon cartridge which I purchased a few weeks ago. Only a very minor update tonight. I decided that my Alphason tonearm need a tonearm cue and I managed to salvage one from an old tonearm from times gone by. Yes it's been put on upside down but it was a real PITA to fit and I'm not about to redo it, it works and I'm happy with how it functions even though it does look a little strange.

18091

The next little upgrade was a spindle extender for my stacked platter experiment when I get time to mess around a bit more. I managed to find this one of the net for £23 delivered, I've prices vary but this was the cheapest I could find.


18092

The stacked platter experiment is probably going to need a little modification to Frankenbearing. So I managed to find a small tube of lithium grease off e-bay for £1.95, I don't need gallons of the stuff hanging around so a small tube can fit in my garage toolbox. It will be interesting to see how my findings pan out against the other Lenco users on the forum certainly be interesting to see how free spinning Frankenbearing is against the stock bearing I'm running at the moment. I'm still getting used to the Lenco's sound and I must admit that I'm really enjoying this little deck.

[brian2957]

Yes , I've been thoroughly enjoying mine too Andrew . I've applied a few cheapish modifications to mine and every one has given me an audible improvement . I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for your opinion on the original V modified '' Frankensteinbearing ''
I've had great fun so far with this turntable and I can sit down in the evening and enjoy the fruits of my labour :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

whats the status with the thrust pads Brian?

[brian2957]

They were posted on the 19th Andrew ( from Spain I think ) , so should be here shortly .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Fab! Incidently, is your avatar the AOS lenco fettlers club? Me, you and Jimbo? :lol:

PS which are you??

[brian2957]

Hah ! I'm the good looking debonair one :lol:

Which one are you :) I've met James in person but I'll let him decide which third of the avatar he is :eyebrows:

[Jimbo]

:lol:well I haven't got dark hair anymore so that would make it a bit easier to identify which one I am:)

[brian2957]

I haven't got dark hair either . Andrew you've just been nominated :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Right I'm the scruffy one with black hair and mirror shades.....PERFECT that fit's my rockstar alterego.

[brian2957]

OK I'll go the angry looking middle guy :steam: That fits my Mr Grumpy alterego , and I'm probably the oldest :lol:

[struth]

You were always the middle guy Brian... Ali to your right and Gaz with the shades looking pished:sofa:

[brian2957]

:eyebrows: :lol:

[Jimbo]

I better grow my hair bit longer then. :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Guys. Newbie question. :dummy: Did you lithium grease the ceramic ball bearing and oil the spindle or did you grease the ball bearing and spindle?

[Jimbo]

Guys. Newbie question. :dummy: Did you lithium grease the ceramic ball bearing and oil the spindle or did you grease the ball bearing and spindle?

Hi Andy, I left a bit of oil on the spindle and greased the ceramic ball bearing.

[brian2957]

I put lithium grease on the ceramic ball bearing and the spindle . Sorry to confuse the issue guys :rolleyes:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Hmm, that complicates things a little. I'm a little unsure about plonking lithium down the bearing spindle shaft it'll be a bugger to clean and does it react with oil if you decided that lithium grease isn't for you? I'll probably go down the lithium on the ball bearing and then oil on the spindle. It looks like we've all done different stuff. I'm currently spinning ELP trilogy album on the Lenco, sounds really good on the stock bearing.

[walpurgis]

And here. Heavy grease on the ball and bottom of spindle. EP80 oil + about 10% STP on the rest of the spindle and bearing.

[Jimbo]

Hmm, that complicates things a little. I'm a little unsure about plonking lithium down the bearing spindle shaft it'll be a bugger to clean and does it react with oil if you decided that lithium grease isn't for you? I'll probably go down the lithium on the ball bearing and then oil on the spindle. It looks like we've all done different stuff. I'm currently spinning ELP trilogy album on the Lenco, sounds really good on the stock bearing.

I found that the easiest route. My thinking was that it would grease the ball in the bottom of the spindle and being grease may stop any chatter between the bearing and spindle end. The shaft is in a very tight bronze sleeve so best probably oiled as I think it would coat the spindle better in such a tight fit? Amyway it spins very very smoothly now and very quiet.

[walpurgis]

Lenco designed the bearing generations ago to run with oil and I reckon they would have known what they were doing. Swiss precision engineering and all that!

[brian2957]

The only thing I was concerned about was drag cause by the grease and that hasn't happened Andy .

TBH the oil and grease mix didn't occur to me as I've never seen any shaft and bearing combination lubricated with an oil and grease mix as the oil will eventually run down the shaft and mix with the grease , thinning it .
But then the last time I serviced a turntable bearing assembly was 1989 ( I think ) :D
I would be interested in what you guys recommend here .

[Wakefield Turntables]

And here. Heavy grease on the ball and bottom of spindle. EP80 oil + about 10% STP on the rest of the spindle and bearing.

oh bloody hell Geoff now that's got my poor old head spinning :drinking:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Well that's one of the cool things about this little project you can mess around for pennies and get some great results. I'm going to oil the spindle and grease the bearing and then have a good listen. The grease should arrive early this week coming so I'll plonk some pics up at some stage.

[Jimbo]

For what it's worth I was recommended lithium grease by someone who services dozens of Lenco's.

[brian2957]

Did they recommend the oil / grease mix which you have used James ?

[Jimbo]

Did they recommend the oil / grease mix which you have used James ?

No just grease Brian. I only left the thinnest amount of oil on the spindle shaft. When I first had my Lenco there was no oil on the bearing or shaft at all and the shaft had corroded a little. Still spinned quite smooth even then!

[brian2957]

Yes , mine was dry as a bone when I first got it too James . I may try the oil / grease combo when I get the chance . I'll post my findings on here .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Minor update - The Nigels Speed Controller - Well the box anyway.

So, I decided I wanted a retro look to my Speed controller and purchased this from China.

18094

I realised I have no "grab handles" anywhere in any of my kit so I decided I needed to make a start. This bloody thing cost a pretty penny and has been a ball ache since the moment I ordered it. Still so long as it does the job I suppose.

I've now been listening to the Lenco for a few hours over the weekend and have made some observations. I have the Lenco linked into my reference system so it benefits from the ATC preamp and active ATC 50's. Vocals can be very well portrayed with the right piece of vinyl, ok it's not upto my DECCA Maroon but the little Shure I have sitting on my Alphason arm sounds very fine indeed. Bass is a little surprising, well defined, deep, not the tightest but still highly enjoyable. Cymbals don't shimmer as well my other decks but still it's a £64 cartridge. Instruments don't have as much seperation and placing as some of my decks but again perfectly acceptable for the level of cart on the deck at the moment. This is going to be one deck which I'm keeping. I've done up a few decks in the past and then sold them due to not gelling with them. The Lenco is a total surprise and should really be shown more respect. It's a great little work horse which can really be made to shine if your prepared to put a little effort into servicing. I've probably gone a little too far with this deck with the tonearm and speed controller but I always fall into the same trap :rolleyes: of wanting to see how far a deck can be pushed. I've not done anything stupid with this deck unlike the 1210 where I went completely stupid and tried all sorts of weird mods. In short I think every Audiophile should at least own / try one.

[helma]

The Lenco is very good indeed. The bass doesn't seem as tight and controlled as the Denon DP-3000, and not as punchy and forceful as with Dual 1019 (!!!) but that said, it sounds very natural and effortless and goes deep. How the Lenco sounds was a surprise to me too, it was not what I expected after a Dual 1019 - I was sort of expecting somehow "more of the same", perhaps in an even more forceful manner from the Lenco, but got something else. It's very difficult to point a finger at it, but it just sounds very unfazed and almost liquid, like the music just flows in a very natural way. A lot authority as well. The Dual 1019 actually has more of a stereotypical 'idler sound', it just seems to pound everything away from the grooves in a very forceful manner. Another excellent turntable and built quality is superior to the Lenco, but it's let down with changer type main bearing (though it has a better bearing than the later 1219/1229) and an aged motor mount which fails to isolate all vibration from the chassis. The motor I think is more heavy duty than the Lenco one, it's straight induction type so takes about 30-40 minutes to warm up and get to right speed.

When I did that side to side comparison, same arm was used on both tables, but the Dual was already fully serviced and mounted in a heavy plinth, while the Lenco plinths was still missing a couple layers and I hadn't yet cleaned & oiled the motor, nor changed the thrustpad on the main bearing (which was a huge upgrade on mine, the original was severely dimpled). I haven't got around to switching the FR-54 from the Lenco to the Denon, it would be an interesting comparison. I think the Lenco / FR-54 combination finally just about matched or bettered a Thorens TD-160 in it's own game, without none of the short comings. Listening to something like well recorded live jazz, the Thorens holds it's own, but it's decidedly anemic in comparison with any of the above tables when listening to stuff that relies on a strong rhytmic delivery, the Thorens just sort of goes "oh this is awfully pounding, let's smooth all the corners and make it nice". Can't really compare it against anything fancier than the tables mentioned since haven't listened side-by-side, but some people seem to even prefer a Lenco against a Garrard 301/401.

I wasn't all too impressed with the Lenco bearing upon opening it up, but in practice it seems to work very well and sound good, especially after replacing the worn out thrust pad at the bottom. I think the biggest let-down by is the top plate, which is quite flimsy. The drive mechanism is genius, except for changing speeds... in reality the mechanism won't ever settle *exactly* in the same position with the 'preset notches', so every speed change really needs to be checked with a strobo if wanting to be accurate. Btw. if you ever run into some odd problems with the drive, like the wheel not always engaging fully at some speeds or seemingly lacking torque at times, before you go crazy about fettling with the spring, idler wheel alignment and adjusting everything, try rotating the rubber grommet at the end of the linkage, it seems an innocent enough little rubber thing, but it seems to play a really crucial part and decades in the same position had made it tire in an uneven way on mine, which led to 'issues' I tried to cure by messing with everything else to no avail.

[montesquieu]

The Lenco is very good indeed. The bass doesn't seem as tight and controlled as the Denon DP-3000, and not as punchy and forceful as with Dual 1019 (!!!) but that said, it sounds very natural and effortless and goes deep. How the Lenco sounds was a surprise to me too, it was not what I expected after a Dual 1019 - I was sort of expecting somehow "more of the same", perhaps in an even more forceful manner from the Lenco, but got something else. It's very difficult to point a finger at it, but it just sounds very unfazed and almost liquid, like the music just flows in a very natural way. A lot authority as well. The Dual 1019 actually has more of a stereotypical 'idler sound', it just seems to pound everything away from the grooves in a very forceful manner. Another excellent turntable and built quality is superior to the Lenco, but it's let down with changer type main bearing (though it has a better bearing than the later 1219/1229) and an aged motor mount which fails to isolate all vibration from the chassis. The motor I think is more heavy duty than the Lenco one, it's straight induction type so takes about 30-40 minutes to warm up and get to right speed.


Interesting observations. I have a lightly modified Lenco in my study system (good quality heavy plinth, Ortofon AS212 tonearm but otherwise fettled but pretty stock. Having owned the Dual 1019, Garrard 401 and presently a Thorens TD124 MkII (as well as a Townshend Rock, LP12 and assorted other suspended decks) I would kind of agree with your sense that the Lenco is a shade more 'polite' in presentation than the Dual (or indeed the Garrard) which are both pretty robust if ultimately lacking in finesse (the Dual moreso than the Garrard of course) compared to the Thorens.

I feel the Lenco leans more towards the liquid subtelty of the TD124, though perhaps falls just a little short in lightness of foot, that bouncy musicality a well fettled Thorens is great at. For me the TD124 is the pick of the bunch, in No2 spot I'd have to think hard between a well-sorted Lenco and a 401 (not a huge fan of the 301 though they do seem to vary more than most by age/condition). And on a PTP setup Lencos can be made to look fantastic as well.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Spindle extender arrived today which means I can start the stacked platter experiment. Will do some pix later.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Kai, Tom, I would have to agree with you with regards the fluidity of the music produced by the Lenco. Thanks for the excellent observations and posting on the thread.

[Jimbo]

The Lenco is very good indeed. The bass doesn't seem as tight and controlled as the Denon DP-3000, and not as punchy and forceful as with Dual 1019 (!!!) but that said, it sounds very natural and effortless and goes deep. How the Lenco sounds was a surprise to me too, it was not what I expected after a Dual 1019 - I was sort of expecting somehow "more of the same", perhaps in an even more forceful manner from the Lenco, but got something else. It's very difficult to point a finger at it, but it just sounds very unfazed and almost liquid, like the music just flows in a very natural way. A lot authority as well. The Dual 1019 actually has more of a stereotypical 'idler sound', it just seems to pound everything away from the grooves in a very forceful manner. Another excellent turntable and built quality is superior to the Lenco, but it's let down with changer type main bearing (though it has a better bearing than the later 1219/1229) and an aged motor mount which fails to isolate all vibration from the chassis. The motor I think is more heavy duty than the Lenco one, it's straight induction type so takes about 30-40 minutes to warm up and get to right speed.

When I did that side to side comparison, same arm was used on both tables, but the Dual was already fully serviced and mounted in a heavy plinth, while the Lenco plinths was still missing a couple layers and I hadn't yet cleaned & oiled the motor, nor changed the thrustpad on the main bearing (which was a huge upgrade on mine, the original was severely dimpled). I haven't got around to switching the FR-54 from the Lenco to the Denon, it would be an interesting comparison. I think the Lenco / FR-54 combination finally just about matched or bettered a Thorens TD-160 in it's own game, without none of the short comings. Listening to something like well recorded live jazz, the Thorens holds it's own, but it's decidedly anemic in comparison with any of the above tables when listening to stuff that relies on a strong rhytmic delivery, the Thorens just sort of goes "oh this is awfully pounding, let's smooth all the corners and make it nice". Can't really compare it against anything fancier than the tables mentioned since haven't listened side-by-side, but some people seem to even prefer a Lenco against a Garrard 301/401.

I wasn't all too impressed with the Lenco bearing upon opening it up, but in practice it seems to work very well and sound good, especially after replacing the worn out thrust pad at the bottom. I think the biggest let-down by is the top plate, which is quite flimsy. The drive mechanism is genius, except for changing speeds... in reality the mechanism won't ever settle *exactly* in the same position with the 'preset notches', so every speed change really needs to be checked with a strobo if wanting to be accurate. Btw. if you ever run into some odd problems with the drive, like the wheel not always engaging fully at some speeds or seemingly lacking torque at times, before you go crazy about fettling with the spring, idler wheel alignment and adjusting everything, try rotating the rubber grommet at the end of the linkage, it seems an innocent enough little rubber thing, but it seems to play a really crucial part and decades in the same position had made it tire in an uneven way on mine, which led to 'issues' I tried to cure by messing with everything else to no avail.

I had a Garrard 301 Kai and much prefer the Lenco GL75 as it has more finesse and subtlety to the sound. It has very solid timing and a drive which carries the music in a very foot tapping sort of way. Indeed it delivers a very satisfying analogue sound which when partnered with a good cartridge can really deliver the goods with vinyl. It may not be the last thing in bass but certainly goes down deeper than my VPI. When they are set up and serviced to allow no obtrusive noise or play they are a little gem and sound very sweet and purposeful.

Definitely still an undervalued turntable which has not been perceived to achieve the same sonics as the Garrards and Thorens but in my book is almost the equal to any of them in its ability to communicate what vinyl has to offer.

[brian2957]

Kai and Tom , excellent post which I read with interest . All part of the bank of information which I intend to build regarding the GL75 . I was tempted to try another turntable which I could just plonk down and play LPs on . Then I put something on the GL75 and fall in love with it all over again .
I've been concentrating on upgrading the bearing which I believe is yielding excellent results for very little outlay . There's a strong possibility that the Lenco GL75 will be the only turntable I need for the foreseeable future :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another wee update...

My spindle extender arrived today and I'm a little disappointed with it. I expected better tolerances for the spindle fit in the platter, it does move around a little but seems to have no impact on the '75s ability to spin two platters. So, I've decided to go down the route of two platters. I'm not bothering resetting the tonearm tonight as I'm really tired. I'm relaxing as I type this listening to a £1.50 charity shop record on the '75, George Spalding - San Francisco scene, an original live mono recording and it really does sound excellent. I'm still using the stock bearing and it's producing excellent Jazz brush work, and vibes sound really good, perhaps not as much note decay as I'm used to on the 301/1210 decks but still extremely pleasing to the ears. I've seen that of weird and wonderful mods when trying the double platter mod but it's really two heavy weight platters sitting on top of each other. I've seen some people trying to bond these together but I have real issues with this, what happens if the platters don't bond equally around the periphery of the platter? I prefer to sit one platter on top of the other with an extended spindle. The key is to test if the platters sit on top of each other without any gaps, this can be checked to simply pressing down on the platters periphery of which no noise should be heard. It's also a good idea to rotate the platters and check the for any space between them. It's been claimed that bass should be improved and backgrounds should be blacker. Tomorrow's and Friday's update is probably going to be setting up the tonearm (again) and then doing some listening. The additional weight should be a bonus and should theoretically improve the sonics of the deck I've not heard a bad comment yet over on Lenco Heaven with regards this mod and every deck I've deck (301/1210) have benefitted from additional mass, said mass should be no problem for the Lenco's motor. New a few pix.

The spindle extender.

18108

This is what a stacked platter '75 looks like naked!! :stalks:

18109

Now dressed in Rubber :wowzer:

18110


I really hate the look of the platters at the moment and can't wait to give them a bloody good polish. I like my decks to look good as well as sounding good.

Additional things in September / October for the project should include finishing the Nigels Speed controller, first trials with Frankenbearing and adding a little bling to the project. I've got a little side project to do where I have to make a couple of DIY buffing discs for my drill, I think I've come up with a neat way to save a few quid and get rid of some scrap wood out of the garage! The DIY buffing discs are to add a little bling to the platters. I'm also thinking of buying a couple of platter rings if the stacked platter experiment works out. It looks like the long winter months are going to be spent reading the entire Lenco Heaven website looking for mods/upgrades etc for 2017.

[CornishPasty]

When you say the spindle extender is a slack fit do you mean into the taper of the upper platter or onto the spindle of the lower platter? If it's the former I'm told you need to fit the extender to the upper platter first and then lower the lot down over the spindle. When doing the stacked platter thing it also helps to have a taller arm mount so there isn't to much arm pillar showing.

[walpurgis]

Take up slack with PTFE plumbing tape. It's very thin!

[brian2957]

Andy ( REXTON ) can you clear your inbox please .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy ( REXTON ) can you clear your inbox please .

Ok, done it old bean.

[Jimbo]

Another wee update...

My spindle extender arrived today and I'm a little disappointed with it. I expected better tolerances for the spindle fit in the platter, it does move around a little but seems to have no impact on the '75s ability to spin two platters. So, I've decided to go down the route of two platters. I'm not bothering resetting the tonearm tonight as I'm really tired. I'm relaxing as I type this listening to a £1.50 charity shop record on the '75, George Spalding - San Francisco scene, an original live mono recording and it really does sound excellent. I'm still using the stock bearing and it's producing excellent Jazz brush work, and vibes sound really good, perhaps not as much note decay as I'm used to on the 301/1210 decks but still extremely pleasing to the ears. I've seen that of weird and wonderful mods when trying the double platter mod but it's really two heavy weight platters sitting on top of each other. I've seen some people trying to bond these together but I have real issues with this, what happens if the platters don't bond equally around the periphery of the platter? I prefer to sit one platter on top of the other with an extended spindle. The key is to test if the platters sit on top of each other without any gaps, this can be checked to simply pressing down on the platters periphery of which no noise should be heard. It's also a good idea to rotate the platters and check the for any space between them. It's been claimed that bass should be improved and backgrounds should be blacker. Tomorrow's and Friday's update is probably going to be setting up the tonearm (again) and then doing some listening. The additional weight should be a bonus and should theoretically improve the sonics of the deck I've not heard a bad comment yet over on Lenco Heaven with regards this mod and every deck I've deck (301/1210) have benefitted from additional mass, said mass should be no problem for the Lenco's motor. New a few pix.

The spindle extender.

18108

This is what a stacked platter '75 looks like naked!! :stalks:

18109

Now dressed in Rubber :wowzer:

18110


I really hate the look of the platters at the moment and can't wait to give them a bloody good polish. I like my decks to look good as well as sounding good.

Additional things in September / October for the project should include finishing the Nigels Speed controller, first trials with Frankenbearing and adding a little bling to the project. I've got a little side project to do where I have to make a couple of DIY buffing discs for my drill, I think I've come up with a neat way to save a few quid and get rid of some scrap wood out of the garage! The DIY buffing discs are to add a little bling to the platters. I'm also thinking of buying a couple of platter rings if the stacked platter experiment works out. It looks like the long winter months are going to be spent reading the entire Lenco Heaven website looking for mods/upgrades etc for 2017.

Looking very nice Andy, it will be quite a stunner when its all polished up. I used Autosol on mine.:)

[montesquieu]

When you say the spindle extender is a slack fit do you mean into the taper of the upper platter or onto the spindle of the lower platter? If it's the former I'm told you need to fit the extender to the upper platter first and then lower the lot down over the spindle. When doing the stacked platter thing it also helps to have a taller arm mount so there isn't to much arm pillar showing.

Yes the technique is to fit it to the top spindle, then lower the assembly on. Mine fitted ok but I wasn't convinced it made any difference to the sound, so I took it off again as it seemed to me to be just doubling the wear on the bearing to no audible benefit. I don't see mass as a particular benefit in an idler anyway so long as there's sufficient to start with. I wouldn't dream of stacking platters on the TD124 so why would I do it on a Lenco?

[CornishPasty]

I wouldn't dream of stacking platters on the TD124 so why would I do it on a Lenco?

I think it came about because of the low platter height of the GL75/78 and the difficulty experienced when fitting an alternative tonearm. Most other arms just don't want to sit that low so placing another platter on top was the fix. Forget the sound, some think it looks good but it doesn't do anything for me. Having listened to several double platter Lencos I think they sound just fine with the one.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I think it came about because of the low platter height of the GL75/78 and the difficulty experienced when fitting an alternative tonearm. Most other arms just don't want to sit that low so placing another platter on top was the fix. Forget the sound, some think it looks good but it doesn't do anything for me. Having listened to several double platter Lencos I think they sound just fine with the one.

Easy come easy go. This little experiment has cost me £23 for the spindle. The worst that happens is that I sell the spindle and loose a few quid, or I could get a deck sounding even better.

[walpurgis]

I have the shorter spindle extension, for use with a Rega glass platter on top of the existing one.

[montesquieu]

Easy come easy go. This little experiment has cost me £23 for the spindle. The worst that happens is that I sell the spindle and loose a few quid, or I could get a deck sounding even better.

Lol I have a spare spindle extended and platter lying about ....

[Wakefield Turntables]

Update - Double platter thingy

Well I have two spinning platters and things sound pretty good. RPM had to be slightly altered as additional dropped RPM by 0.1 to 33.2 this was easily changed. The Alphason had plenty of height on it's collar to accomodate the additional platter, mat and record height. The Shure is tracking at 1.85g at the moment and is parallel to the vinyl. Spindle distance is 211mm I would say all basic tonearm parameters are as they should be. It's still way too early to suggest if this little experiment has been beneficial but I will say that after listening to a little Greig and Chopin and then some rag piano by Scott Joplin that the piano presentation is much sharper and defined compared to single platter spinning. This could be down to better cartridge alignment so I'm making any major comments just yet. It'll take a few days spinning before I can say for certain. You can certainly see the fly-wheel effect with the extra mass of the second platter when the break is applied it will be interesting to see what happens when we get Frankenbearing in place over the next few weeks. Nigels Speed Controller is being fine tuned (sorry Jez).

The Lenco continues to amaze me and also just what a semi-decent MM cartridge can achieve with a decent deck setup. The Lenco produces a very nice relaxed sounstage with a music fluidity. Bass is purposeful and brush work on drums is very well defined. Piano seems to be well defined with plenty of timbre and decay as a note ends. Vocals can sound realistic and intimate. Sounstage is a little narrow compared to what I normally get with the other decks but this could be down to only playing a small selection of vinyl. It looks like the Lenco journey will finally be slowing down altough I have a new thrust plate coming at some stage so the next few updates will be focussed around double platter experiment and the Frankenbearing experiment. Stay tooned guys.

[CornishPasty]

Easy come easy go. This little experiment has cost me £23 for the spindle. The worst that happens is that I sell the spindle and loose a few quid, or I could get a deck sounding even better.

I'm not criticising your efforts Andrew, far from it. I admire your enthusiasm. I wish I had a bit more of it myself.

[brian2957]

Excellent post again Andy . Early listening with the ceramilc bearing and the new thrust pad suggests a slightly improved soundstage so I look forward to the introduction of Frankensteinbearing even if it's only to confirm whether I'm hearing things or not . I was a bit busy yesterday but hope to get more listening done today :)
This thread is really turning into an excellent resource for GL75 owners who want to optimize their turntables . I'm tempted to take the path which you have taken Andy , however , I really would like to keep this current GL75 as near unmolested as possible with just light upgrades . I am now thinking about buying another GL75 for major upgrades / renovation similar to those which you applied to your GL75 :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

I'm not criticising your efforts Andrew, far from it. I admire your enthusiasm. I wish I had a bit more of it myself.

Ralph, no worries man. It's only a hifi forum. Comment as you like, I'm pretty laid back. ;)


Excellent post again Andy . Early listening with the ceramilc bearing and the new thrust pad suggests a slightly improved soundstage so I look forward to the introduction of Frankensteinbearing even if it's only to confirm whether I'm hearing things or not . I was a bit busy yesterday but hope to get more listening done today :)
This thread is really turning into an excellent resource for GL75 owners who want to optimize their turntables . I'm tempted to take the path which you have taken Andy , however , I really would like to keep this current GL75 as near unmolested as possible with just light upgrades . I am now thinking about buying another GL75 for major upgrades / renovation similar to those which you applied to your GL75 :)

HAH! You've been bitten by the Lenco bug!! Lenco's are still cheap but I have noticed a slight increase in '75 prices. I think were still in a position that we can buy a few decks and experiment but I honestly think that the Lenco's will start to gain value and this sort of messing around we do might come to an end. But until then lets carry on and have fun. :cool:

[brian2957]

Yes , I've noticed prices creeping up too , may have to buy another sooner rather than later .

[walpurgis]

Yes , I've noticed prices creeping up too , may have to buy another sooner rather than later .

Good job I've got a couple and nearly enough bits for a third and an old GL68 chassis + motor that I could convert to heavy platter. Mind you, I might get fed up and flog the lot :D.

[brian2957]

Hope you've got something else decent to listen to Geoff :D

[walpurgis]

Hope you've got something else decent to listen to Geoff :D

Oh yes. The Toshiba SR-370 + 774 arm.

http://i68.tinypic.com/18c94h.jpg

Excuse the dust! :)

[brian2957]

Looks very nice mate . How does it compare to the GL75 ?

[walpurgis]

Looks very nice mate . How does it compare to the GL75 ?

Very different. Sounds like a Techie on steroids! :D

[brian2957]

Very different. Sounds like a Techie on steroids! :D

:D

[CornishPasty]

Good job I've got a couple and nearly enough bits for a third and an old GL68 chassis + motor that I could convert to heavy platter. Mind you, I might get fed up and flog the lot :D.

Modifying a light platter Lenco to take a heavy platter and bearing is the way to go. Turn it through 90 degrees and the speed control and on/off switch end up on the left well out of the way of the stylus and the arm will then mount on the plinth which imo is where it needs to be. Because there's no depression in the light platter top plate it also makes plinth building so much easier.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - Using up bits and bobs

Not really much to write about tonight. I've been making a couple of DIY buffer discs for when I start getting the platter polished. I decided tonight to use up some of the stuff in the garage, so now the garage is a little lighter for scraps of wood and polishing clothes! Seriously though I started to get the top platter polished and managed about a third before I got bored. I can tell that this is going to take a few days. I'll be using my drill to polish and buff when I pick up some supplied tomorrow so things should speed up a little. More fine tuning tonight with the tracking force with the Shure, I decided upon 1.8g as this seems to offer me the greatest amount of detail with the least surface noise. Anything lower than 1.6g and some records mistrack and the surface noise really takes the pleasure out of listening. Antiskate starts at 1g and goes up in increments of .25g so the 1.8g value works nicely with a value of 1.75g on the bias weight.

Just a few more musings on the double platters. The soundstage now appears to have firmed up and and has centralised the performance to slap bang in the middle of the speakers. I would say the soundstage has narrowed a little but now appears to have more depth. I'm now listening to Micheal Newman (Sheffield lab10) a direct to disc recording which I have to say sounds excellent, surface noise virtually non-existant, the speakers have done a disappearing job and Micheal Newman only appears seven feet away. Fantastic stable definition of each guitar pick, notes have very lucid decay and timbre. I think it's fair to say that this deck can do classical guitar. The lenco is still producing a laid back lucidity to the the music.

The Lenco does a decent job of reproducing prog, dream theater is my reference when it comes to conjuring an insanely complicated sound stage. I've noticed the Lenco does sound a little washy with snare drums but yet sounds excellent with the snap of a bongo drum :scratch:. Bass drums appear a little muted. The Lenco can reproduce Dream Theater to a reasonable standard but I dont think it's going to be my deck of choice, it looks like the 1210 is still the king in the prog department. Well, time to sign off again, I'll probably be trying loads of other different music types of the coming weeks to try and work this deck out.

[brian2957]

Another insightful review of the results of changes to the GL75 Andy . I must admit , though , that I'm looking forward to the introduction of your Frankensteinbearing :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Thrust plate arrived, more fun over the weekend. Thanks Brian.

ps will post the head she'll in next few days

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy , look forward to the introduction of the modified bearing :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Frankenbearing has now been installed. It's not that much of an update from the original. Lithium grease has been used in the bearing pit. The bearing has been replaced with a ceramic bearing and the thrust plate is the recommended PEEK thrustplate for stacked platter Lenco's. Very very early to post anything hear but I will leave the deck spinning over the next few hours to evenly spread new oil and lithium grease over the spindle and bearing.

[brian2957]

Mmm... Perhaps it's a bit more audible when using the original plinth rather than the heavier one which you have , but I'm certainly sure I heard a difference Andy . Let's see what James has to say , his thrust pad was posted to him yesterday and his GL75 has the original plinth .
I will probably go back to the original bearing and thrust pad at some point when I've had time to get used to what I have at the moment .
Thanks for taking the time to post your findings mate :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Mmm... Perhaps it's a bit more audible when using the original plinth rather than the heavier one which you have , but I'm certainly sure I heard a difference Andy . Let's see what James has to say , his thrust pad was posted to him yesterday and his GL75 has the original plinth .
I will probably go back to the original bearing and thrust pad at some point when I've had time to get used to what I have at the moment .
Thanks for taking the time to post your findings mate :)

No I didnt mean that the upgrade hasn't improved the sound I meant the bearing hasnt been upgraded that much from the original. It's very very early days but I think your observation about the soundstage could be true. :eyebrows: Your new headshell will be in the post tonight and I've sent you some semi-compressed felt just in case you want to do a little mod which I have planned for tonight.

[brian2957]

Sorry mate , I've misunderstood what you said . I was just up out of bed and maybe a bit groggy ( nightshift is wonderful innit :( ) . Good to know that maybe I'm not hearing things after all . I'll be interested in your take on this once you've had a proper listen .
Thanks for the headshell Andrew , it's much appreciated and will let me have a little play with alternative cartridges .
This new felt mod sounds interesting . I take it you'll be talking about it here , if not could you PM me about it .
I tried this little upgrade and I'm pretty happy with it , although I'm not sure it improves the sound , it may improve the idler wheel noise slightly although mine was pretty quiet before . It did however remove a very tiny bit of wobble which was present in mine . Well worth the money IMO . http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=21002.0

[Wakefield Turntables]

Sorry mate , I've misunderstood what you said . I was just up out of bed and maybe a bit groggy ( nightshift is wonderful innit :( ) . Good to know that maybe I'm not hearing things after all . I'll be interested in your take on this once you've had a proper listen .
Thanks for the headshell Andrew , it's much appreciated and will let me have a little play with alternative cartridges .
This new felt mod sounds interesting . I take it you'll be talking about it here , if not could you PM me about it .
I tried this little upgrade and I'm pretty happy with it , although I'm not sure it improves the sound , it may improve the idler wheel noise slightly although mine was pretty quiet before . It did however remove a very tiny bit of wobble which was present in mine . Well worth the money IMO . http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=21002.0

Brian,

I thought I might have come up with a way of making the break a little more silent using semi compressed felt but it actually made things worse so ignore the "upgrade" in my last post. I've sent you some semi compressed felt, I'd chuck it away of I was you. I must admit to probably not being quite as far in as you are with going through Lenco Heaven, I will eventually read the whole site I done ~40% so far so I think I still have some more tweeking to do! Thanks for suggestions with regards the idler wheel where did you get your washers?

A

[walpurgis]

I also found that messing about with the brake served little purpose. All I ended up doing was to turn the PVC 'pad' over to provide a fresh surface.

[Jimbo]

I also found that messing about with the brake served little purpose. All I ended up doing was to turn the PVC 'pad' over to provide a fresh surface.

I did this too Geoff as I failed to find any material better to replace it with. Apparently fish tank pipe of the correct diameter is a good substitute?

[walpurgis]

Apparently fish tank pipe of the correct diameter is a good substitute?

It's the same stuff James. PVC.

I reckon a few layers of heatshrink sleeving might do the job. Not tried that one.

Silicone rubber does not work as well. Noisy!

[Jimbo]

It's the same stuff James. PVC.

I reckon a few layers of heatshrink sleeving might do the job. Not tried that one.

Silicone rubber does not work as well. Noisy!

I know some folk take the brake off altogether but then you end up having to slow the platter down with your greasy paw!:lol:

[CornishPasty]

Remove the brake, you don't need it. It's one less part to rattle around.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight update - Wax on / Wax off Daniel son or some musing's on where to upgrade

I've done a fair bit on the deck tonight. I installed Frankenbearing and have had the deck running at 78rpm for the last six hours meaning I should have run up approx 14 hours on normal usage at 33 rpm, quite a neat trick up the Lenco's sleeve :eyebrows:. The more I think about this deck the more I appreciate it's design and also wonder how good it can sound with it's achilles heel, the top plate. The top plate is very thin when compared to a Garrard 301/401 and you can see why the Lenco went down the route of the GL99 with its very similar Garrard 301 design and top plate mass. The Lenco had four screw threads which anchor the top plate down onto a plinth via a waser and wingnut this is really going to be bad for vibration but this is sometime this is improved with rubber washer or even replacing the screw threads with high density plastic. The problem with this system is that the Lenco '75 has a large periphery to the top plate and I don't think the fixing bolts do a very good job of ensuring the whole top plate is in contact with the plinth. So, I think a better system is needed to banish the large periphery and increase to the surface area between the top plate and the plinth and this has been designed and is called the PTP system. In short the PTP is the new top plate and it's entire surface area is bonded to the plinth. This fit's my ethos and reasoning as to how I would like to upgrade my Lenco and it also additionally removes more parts from under the hood which could resonate and introduce mechanical vibration into the bearing spindle and platter. I don't intend getting the PTP this year as I want to spend the rest of 2016 slowly upgrading and tweeking the current Lenco and seeing how various tweeks work. Now time for some piccies.

Frankenbearing - The new ceramic bearing and lithium grease

18142

The PEEK thrust plate installed and bearing all closed up.
18143

Wax on/Wax off Daniel son.. The how made buffer disc and a bit of Brasso and a nicely poloshed platter. Just a bit of bling.
18144

A tale of two platters. It's taken ~7-10 hours of polishing to get the top platter looking like this and it's still not finished. I don't think I'll bother with the bottom platter.

18145

A little tweek to stop vibration getting into the idler wheel. I found a nice wedge of blue tack on the idler arm nicely dampens vibration from the arm into the Idler and therefore the platter.

18146

More in post 2 of the night.

[Jimbo]

Try Autosol on the other platter Andy it only takes about an hour to get the same finish you have achieved with the Brasso and disc polisher..

[Wakefield Turntables]

Do not put any semi compressed felt on the brake! I thought I was being smart but ended up making more platter noise. That's a tweek to forget.

18147

Ah, my baby all polished up! A quick pic of the deck tonight as polished up and blinged out. :stalks: The platter still needs some work.

18148

Another little tweek this time from my Garrard 301 tweeking days. I now use the Garrard mat over the original Lenco and I also bought a rather unfortunately named mat called the "gimp" mat for £15 off e$cum. I've partnered them up and quite like what I'm hearing. I think the Gimp gives a little extra dampening to the platter and the effects seem to be positive. I've not had to change VTA and the noise from the Lenco is quite frankly excellent. Right that's it for t'neet as we say around here.

18149

[walpurgis]

I think I've mentioned before somewhere that amalgamating tape is effective for absorbing vibration in idler arms.

[Jimbo]

Do not put any semi compressed felt on the brake! I thought I was being smart but ended up making more platter noise. That's a tweek to forget.

18147

Ah, my baby all polished up! A quick pic of the deck tonight as polished up and blinged out. :stalks: The platter still needs some work.

18148

Another little tweek this time from my Garrard 301 tweeking days. I now use the Garrard mat over the original Lenco and I also bought a rather unfortunately named mat called the "gimp" mat for £15 off e$cum. I've partnered them up and quite like what I'm hearing. I think the Gimp gives a little extra dampening to the platter and the effects seem to be positive. I've not had to change VTA and the noise from the Lenco is quite frankly excellent. Right that's it for t'neet as we say around here.

18149

Looking excellent Andy. Wish I had you skills and patience!

[brian2957]

Brian,

I thought I might have come up with a way of making the break a little more silent using semi compressed felt but it actually made things worse so ignore the "upgrade" in my last post. I've sent you some semi compressed felt, I'd chuck it away of I was you. I must admit to probably not being quite as far in as you are with going through Lenco Heaven, I will eventually read the whole site I done ~40% so far so I think I still have some more tweeking to do! Thanks for suggestions with regards the idler wheel where did you get your washers?

A
The washers come with the kit Andy .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Another update - from my sick bed :violin:!!!

Well after feeling $#!+ for a few days I thought I'd cheer myself up and write something of my observations with regards my last few little tweeks, mainly:-

1. Stacked platters
2. Gimp mat
3. Slightly modded bearing

1. The stacked platters in my humble opinion seem to "add" to the soundstage. People over on Lenco Heaven have highlighted very low surface noise and I would have to agree. Some people have mentioned an improvement on bass(deeper, taughter et al), well I can't claim that :eek: it just sounds the same to me. So is the double platter mod worth doing? Well, I'd have to say yes. It's very difficult to put into words the mod does, the deck just sounds better and correct. TBH I haven't been able to put my finger on just what the stacked platter achieve.

2. The Gimp Mat - I tried this little mod as a complete whim. This mat has been sitting under a table for several months. I'd heard that this type of mat can make a small improvement on the Garrard 301 with Tenuto mat, I noticed no improvement when I tried so the mat got filed away with all the other bits of hifi kit that you dont use. I plonked this under the Garrard 301 which I use on my Lenco and noticed that the soundstage seemed to firm up quite nicely. Removing the mat confirmed that it seemed to give the Lenco soundstage a little more cohesion.

3. Ceramic ball bearing / Peek thrust pad and Lithium grease mod - This mod does indeed improve soundstage depth and width. My Lenco had suffered from quite narrow soundstage presentation and now things have improved no end. The lithium grease must have markedly decreased the coefficient of friction and the ceramic bearing interface with the peek thrust pad and this can be seem when the on/off switch is applied the platter seems to take forever to stop. The "flywheel" effect is easily seen with the additional weight of the second platter. The Lenco now seems to present many differing soundstages and they seem to be based around how the vinyl has been recorded. You play Zed Zeppelin II you get massive sound effects across the whole width of my listening room, you play a mono recording you might get a narrow but very detailed rendition of what's on the vinyl.

Right, I'm all out of tweeks I need to start reading Lenco Heaven to see what other Lenco nuts have done to their decks. See yeah...

[walpurgis]

after feeling $#!+ for a few days

You too Andy? I've had the lurgy over the weekend and until yesterday. Hope you feel better! :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

You too Andy? I've had the lurgy over the weekend and until yesterday. Hope you feel better! :)

Thanks mate. Yeah, probably caught it from my 2 year old, ah, the joys of nursery infections!

[Jimbo]

Andy, do you think the ceramic bearing, thrust plate and lithium grease improved the sound stage more significantly than the stacked platters?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Andy, do you think the ceramic bearing, thrust plate and lithium grease improved the sound stage more significantly than the stacked platters?

Jim, I have to say that I don't honestly know. This is the problem with multiple tweeks. I'd hazard guess and say that's it's a culmination of both the platters and bearing mods. Sorry I can't be any more help. On a lighter note a second platter can be bought pretty cheaply from ebay so it might be worth a punt if you fancy experimenting. I'm certainly not getting rid of my second platter, it just adds something to the presentation that improves the soundstage and I'd be loathed to go back to how the '75 used to sound even though it sounded pretty good back then.

[Jimbo]

Jim, I have to say that I don't honestly know. This is the problem with multiple tweeks. I'd hazard guess and say that's it's a culmination of both the platters and bearing mods. Sorry I can't be any more help. On a lighter note a second platter can be bought pretty cheaply from ebay so it might be worth a punt if you fancy experimenting. I'm certainly not getting rid of my second platter, it just adds something to the presentation that improves the soundstage and I'd be loathed to go back to how the '75 used to sound even though it sounded pretty good back then.

I appreciate the double platter modification as this would add more mass and therefore less vibration both airborne and from the stylus energy bouncing back into the vinyl therefore lower noise floor and greater gravitas to the sound, probably better bass and blacker background therefore maybe better detail as well? This is certainly what happened with the Notts analogue TT and the very heavy mass VPI TT platters.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I appreciate the double platter modification as this would add more mass and therefore less vibration both airborne and from the stylus energy bouncing back into the vinyl therefore lower noise floor and greater gravitas to the sound, probably better bass and blacker background therefore maybe better detail as well? This is certainly what happened with the Notts analogue TT and the very heavy mass VPI TT platters.

I think you could be correct. I've always liked heavy mass platters and can remember the huge improvements when I bought my original mike New Cu/Al platter. You might need to mess around with your tonearm if you intend going down this route.

[montesquieu]

I appreciate the double platter modification as this would add more mass and therefore less vibration both airborne and from the stylus energy bouncing back into the vinyl therefore lower noise floor and greater gravitas to the sound, probably better bass and blacker background therefore maybe better detail as well? This is certainly what happened with the Notts analogue TT and the very heavy mass VPI TT platters.


Those were rubber band decks, all of which benefit from the high mass to even out the speed wobble that's generally present in belt drive ... totally not necessary in an idler. (Speed wobble drives me nuts, I can barely listen to an LP12 or even a Voyd these days, been so used to idlers in recent years).

People don't stack Garrard or Thorens platters, so I'm with the theory earlier in the thread that it's down to replacement arms sitting too high that's made stacked platters a 'thing' in Lenco land.

I have one (and spindle) going spare anyway if someone want to give it a try (with spindle extension). My Lenco runs just fine on one platter.

[Jimbo]

Those were rubber band decks, all of which benefit from the high mass to even out the speed wobble that's generally present in belt drive ... totally not necessary in an idler. (Speed wobble drives me nuts, I can barely listen to an LP12 or even a Voyd these days, been so used to idlers in recent years).

People don't stack Garrard or Thorens platters, so I'm with the theory earlier in the thread that it's down to replacement arms sitting too high that's made stacked platters a 'thing' in Lenco land.

I have one (and spindle) going spare anyway if someone want to give it a try (with spindle extension). My Lenco runs just fine on one platter.

I am sure you are correct regarding stability of speed with belt driven turntables however heavy platters do certainly help with controlling vibration.

[montesquieu]

I am sure you are correct regarding stability of speed with belt driven turntables however heavy platters do certainly help with controlling vibration.

Evidence for that?

No vibration issue on my TD124 or on my Garrard previously. Or indeed on my GL75 with one platter.

[Jimbo]

Evidence for that?

No vibration issue on my TD124 or on my Garrard previously. Or indeed on my GL75 with one platter.

You must have your turntables very well isolated then.

Increased mass does tend to reduce HF resonance depending on platter material used, VPI moved back from acrylic to steel probably because it helped with HF resonance ( It had a different sound).
Heavy platters also have a damping effect which helps reduce motor/bearing and airborne vibrations affecting the cartridge.

Higher mass also, as you mentioned stabilises speed but also stops stylus drag. My high mass platter results in a very quiet black background due to its mass which is much more evident than my idler.

[montesquieu]

I have lots of mass IN THE PLINTH. (With the TD124 and two arms it's over 30kg). Which is the correct place to have it.

Where's your evidence for HF resonance from a single Lenco platter vs double? I don't hear any with my Lenco or my Thorens. (Or my Garrard before that). Measurements?

Why would doubling the mass on a platter affect airborne vibrations?

Stylus drag is not an issue with idlers. That's the main reason for using them. I accept it is with wobbly belt drive decks but I haven't used one of those for donkeys. High mass is indeed sensible on an NA or other deck of that ilk. On an idler, I really don't see the point.

I come back to my original question: why on a Lenco and not on Garrard or Thorens?

[Jimbo]

I don't know if the high mass of stacked platters on a Lenco improved sound quality due to inertia or mass I was just trying to suggest possible reasons to Andy why it should sound better.

What's with the IN THE PLINTH implying. I have high mass in my plinth and platter.

Evidence for high mass effects comes from listening and other people's experiences.

I did not say stylus drag was an issue with Lenco's ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Guys, it's only a platter!!!! It's only my opinion that things sound better, that's not to say I could be barking up the wrong tree, but I do wonder why Ken Shindo decided to go down the route of increasing platter diameter and mass on the Shindo 301? Perhaps it's because it simply sounded better to him. I don't think he ever gave reasons why his platter design shoud improve the 301, perhaps it was just marketing ( :sofa: ). There is more to a deck than discussing the platter and I think the aesthetics of the deck should also be carefully considered. Part of MY listening experience is knowing that I've stripped down and worked on the particular deck, experienced the rebuild, the steady improvements over the months and then the ultimate joy is finishing it and then having it my collection for decades to come. This Lenco will be such a piece. If I'm to look at something for decades it has to be a design that I find pleasing to eye and something that works me asethetically and this Lenco ticks those boxes. I don't really care if the second platter add to improvements over the sonics, I think it does, but to my eyes it just looks better. Some would disagree and that's fine but it would be a boring world if we all agreed and discussion became stale. Party on lads....

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jim,

MASS is usually added into the design of the plinth. So, some people decide to fill a compartment (usually the base) with all manor of materials. I've seem lead shot, sand, pebbles, even concrete. Thats all very well but the a motor any idler that is attached to the top plate or chasis will still leak vibration into the bearing and thus the platter and that's why Dr. Bastin created a plinth to mount the bearing away from the 301's chasis and PTP designed the PTP top plate for the Lenco to removed the motor from the bearing. I supposed the ultimate would be to decouple motor and bearing and mount into the plinth.

[Jimbo]

Regarding Lenco's and Garrards I agree mass is added into the plinth and because of the particular drive of these beasts there is no need for a heavy platter.

However I was just highlighting the fact with belt driven turntables and mine in particular mass is added to the plinth and the platter. What Tom is trying to say is that Mass is only added to a platter in belters for speed control but in fact the increased mass also helps with vibration issues.

[CornishPasty]

I supposed the ultimate would be to decouple motor and bearing and mount into the plinth.

That's how I built my last two Lencos. However the plinth material and construction becomes more critical. Most of the stuff we use for plinth construction is just as good at transmitting vibration from one component to another.

Edit. I'm thinking energy might be a better word to use than vibration.

[Jimbo]

How about decoupling the two platters and trying a magnetic drive as VPI do with the Titan?:lol:

http://vpiindustries.com/blog/?p=938

[Wakefield Turntables]

Edit. I'm thinking energy might be a better word to use than vibration.

We could get all science on your ass! We all understand what you mean. ;)


How about decoupling the two platters and trying a magnetic drive as VPI do with the Titan?:lol:

http://vpiindustries.com/blog/?p=938

WTF :stalks:

[Jimbo]

We could get all science on your ass! We all understand what you mean. ;)



WTF :stalks:

About £10,000 :eek:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Just a quick one the NIGELS SPEED CONTROLLER PCB is now back up for sale over on Lenco Heaven. EMAIL Nigel the guy who makes them for a PCB.

[Marra]

Just a quick one the NIGELS SPEED CONTROLLER PCB is now back up for sale over on Lenco Heaven. EMAIL Nigel the guy who makes them for a PCB.

Well worth the effort of building one imho.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight's update - Optimised optimisations

Tonight begins my first attempt at completely reading Lenco Heaven in a bid to see what can be done to the Lenco in a bid to make a "REFERENCE" level Lenco. I intend to try and read a section of the Forum every night or at least digest as much as possible. Tonights section has been "The Lab", 23 pages of threads and discussions on how to elevate you 'Len to the next level. I've decided to prepare a master list of threads which I intend to reference and explore once the time comes. This is version 1.

MOTOR

1. Complete motor isolation http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2150.0
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5757.0

2. Motor vibration characteristics http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15689.0


3. Reference motor http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15702.0

4. Motor voltage http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15883.0


BEARING

1. Mods http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=20790.0


PLINTH

1. Energy channeling !!??!! http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=15883.0


MATS

1. GLASS
2. TENUTO GUN METAL




OTHER "REFERENCE" LENCO LISTS

http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=13201.0



AREAS REJECTED

Idler arm dampening Opinion seems to suggest no improvement.
Idler wheel spring cue mechanism http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=23071.0 - WHY BOTHER??????
Idler arm dampening / platter speed No point really when I can fine tune platter rpm.

OK so the formatting isn't perfect but you guys can now see where I intend to take this project and which areas I intend to avoid. Tomorrow's light homework is the components section of the Lenco Heaven forum and I have a sneaky feeling that it's going to take a while to get through.

Now as an aside I'm glad to say that my Nigels Speed Controller is hopefully going to arrive this week at some stage. I'll put some pictures up when I get chance but the on going trawl through LH is my main priority. The Lenco has now taken a back seat for a little while and I'm now enjoying the delights of the 301/SPU combo. Much as I love my Lenco I'm afraid it would be the 301 that would be going to the Dessert Island if I ever got stranded. Sorry Lenco :wave:.

I think the next area of Lenco tweaking is probably going to be the platter mat. This is cheap and cheerful for me as I have a few. I would probably assume the something like a glass or Tenuto platter mat would work well on the Lenco's stacked platters as this has always been the case for me where I have changed a standard platter with something with a larger mass platter, the 1210 being a good example. The Alphason should be able to go another 2-3mm higher on the mounting collar :eek:.

OK, that's me signing out again for another night. :wave:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - Bearing Barings.

There is so much discussion over on Lenco Heaven with regards barings that it can get very frustrating as their appears to be no consensus of opinion with regards "the best" option for ball baring types, thrust plate materials, oils, grease etc. My little foray into modification has lead me to believe that nice improvements can indeed be gained by tinkering. There are many designs that have been hyped and then found to be the worse thing since white bread. Jeremy's bearing being one of them and then the Mirko bearing, and to complicate things even further every Lenco owner seems to design there own. With all this in mind I decided to select the bearings that have had no bad press and some positive feedback the two I selected were PTP Audio bearing and the Jollyfix modded bearing. Both come from Lenco users of much respect and repute over on Lenco heaven so when the time comes I shall be spending more time researching and comtemplating a purchase.

The Lenco hasn't progressed much further. The base platter has had a polish and more importantly a clean. It's quite possible to see where the idler wheel has imparted rubber on the underside of the platter. The platter has now had a very good wash with warm soapy water and a gentle scrub to remove as much of this residue as possible. My thoughts are that this rubber residue may cause some drag on the platter. I have no idea if its going to improve the performance of the Lenco but it's worth doing.

18183

Tomorrow is going to be spent contemplating faffing around with the idler arm. The Speed Controller is still being made so hopefully we should have a nice new big shiny toy to play with soon.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - A MATter of fact!

Tonight starts the mini-bake off with two old favourite platter mats. The Tenuto gun metal platter mat which sits on my Garrard 301 and the Analog Studio Crystal mat which sits on my Technics 1210. Both mats have proved themselves and have a place in both my solid state and valve reference systems. I'm in the process of fine tuning the '75 and this little experiment should hopefully decide if I need to spend money in the platter mat department.

The Tenuto gun metal platter mat

18189

The Analog studio Crystal Mat

18190

I hope to get a few hours critical listening in over the next few days so I can make some notes and compare the two. I removed the platter break last night due to my CDO worries about excessive gubbings under the platter. I hated the noise it made when it was in useand tBH i dont mind waiting for the platter to stop spinning because it usually gives me enough time to put vinyl away between plays. Right, time to compare some mats.....see yeah!:D

[CornishPasty]

Fair play Andrew, getting rid of the brake lever is good riddance to another piece of useless junk that never seemed to work. Every Lenco I've seriously modified has had all superfluous junk removed including the mains switch. I do the 16 rpm mod so the idler can be disengaged with the speed selector and I fit a manual on/off switch for the motor in the front left hand corner. That way I can leave the motor running and simply disengage the idler when changing records. It works for me anyway.
On the subject of bearings I don't think you'd go far wrong with one of Joly's offerings. He's a no bullshit kind of chap and a good engineer from what I've seen. I like what he does.

[walpurgis]

I like the brake. It works and causes no problems.

[brian2957]

If I was doing major mods on my GL75 I would probably remove the brake but since I'm keeping mine as original as possible it'll be staying .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I must have a look at the 16rpm mod although I don't think I'll find it useful. Adding a switch to the front of the deck is an option that will probably be fitted if I go down the PTP route.

[CornishPasty]

The 16 rpm mod is very easy to do Andrew. It's simply a matter of putting an nut and bolt in the right place and if you don't like it you can remove it in seconds. You can leave everything else as is just to try it out. I find flicking from 33 to 16 and leaving the motor running makes the deck a joy to use. I hate using that on off lever being right under the stylus.

[helma]

I don't have the original Lenco arm on mine, with the S-shaped FR-54 I'm using I find no issue with the positioning of the on/off switch. Even though I have no use for it myself, the idea of the 16rpm/off mod seems neat. However, not sure how accurate speed you are going to get that way, at least my experience with the Lenco speed change mechanism is that despite the stoppers, the idler wheel won't end up precisely on the same spot every time. Not a huge deal since the speed variation seems rather minor, but enough to show up with a strobo. Also it seems to matter slightly whether you come from 45 -> 33 or 16 -> 33.

[Barry]

I must have a look at the 16rpm mod although I don't think I'll find it useful. Adding a switch to the front of the deck is an option that will probably be fitted if I go down the PTP route.

Why would anyone want to use 16 2/3 rpm on a TT?

[walpurgis]

Why would anyone want to use 16 2/3 rpm on a TT?

I wondered too.

[Jimbo]

And me!:lol::scratch:

[Wakefield Turntables]

It's becoming quite apparent that the bottleneck with this decks performance is the £63 shure M55E & Jico Stylus from eBay :ner:. I'm hoping that one of the mats if going to fetch out sufficient detail so that I don't have to go down the route of purchasing a better quality MM cart such as a 2M Black or the top of the range JICO SAS stylus, i should be able to get a decent 2M Black for a couple of hundred quid or the JICO SAS for a little less. The little Lenco is very addictive that's for sure and it was originally going to be the deck to play all my bargain basement / car boot finds (can you believe it)!!! I'll have another night with the Tenuto mat tonight and then start with some critical listening with the Crystal mat over the weekend. I'll probably have to do all this again when the Speed Controller arrives. I'm hoping the speed controller fetches cohesion and solidity to the soundstage just like the Pheonix Roadrunner on the 301. The trawling through the entire Lenco Heaven forum is 50% complete and I must say that there is an extremely large amount of repeat discussion there only appears to be so much that can be done to the deck which I suppose is good in one respect but boring in another. Ah well.... more reading to do then... :cool:

[Jimbo]

What arm are you using on the Lenco Andy?

[Wakefield Turntables]

ALPHASON HR100-s it does ~80% of what my SME V can achieve

[brian2957]

That's what I'm using Andy so I'll be interested to see where you go with this .

[CornishPasty]

Why would anyone want to use 16 2/3 rpm on a TT?

Precisely. For those who don't understand the 16 rpm mod, because 16 rpm is never used it's made redundant and that position of the speed control lever is now used to disengage the idler wheel. It came about because those with heavily modified turntables needed some other way of disengaging the idler wheel.

[brian2957]

Ah .. that makes sense now Ralph . I must admit that I was scratching my head too :)

[walpurgis]

My understanding is that 16rpm turntables came about for what was the then equivalent of 'talking books' that needed longer playing time, rather than high resolution.

[Jimbo]

The speed goes back to very early records that were hand cranked which equated to about 18 rpm.

[walpurgis]

The speed goes back to very early records that were hand cranked which equated to about 18 rpm.

Since when did 18rpm become 16rpm? :D

[walpurgis]

http://jake0147.tripod.com/id4.html

I believe my dad had a couple of 16rpm 'storybook' records when I was a kid.

[Arkless Electronics]

It should be even better with this:)

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag156/Jez1235/SDC10832_zps2qi1cuc2.jpg (http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Jez1235/media/SDC10832_zps2qi1cuc2.jpg.html)

[Arkless Electronics]

Oh and if anyone else wants one then a case like this is not an option! With an 8.5mm thick front panel and 3mm for all others the metalwork has probably taken my hair to a new shade of grey:eek:

[walpurgis]

Oh and if anyone else wants one then a case like this is not an option! With an 8.5mm thick front panel and 3mm for all others the metalwork has probably taken my hair to a new shade of grey:eek:

A blue rinse could look quite fetching at your age Jez. ;) :D

[Arkless Electronics]

A blue rinse could look quite fetching at your age Jez. ;) :D

Blue dreadlocks.... it could work:D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonight update - The end of the road...?? :wah:

Sure looks like it. The only way that this Lenco could get modded any further would be a complete rethink of the plinth and some of the major components. I would be looking at a complete new plinth rebuild with a PTP6 and either Jollyon / PTP bearing alongside the bearing and motor being decoupled from the plinth and a probably decoupled tonearm pod. I don't think I want to change the cartridge altough I would consider a JICO SAS stylus to replace the £40 jobbie sitting in my Shure M55E I even considered the Ortofon 2M black but then I'm fed up of Ortofon cartridges I own quite a few and want a change. I went through a similar decision making process when purchasing the Alphason tonearm it's a brand that I'd never owned before and the tonearm is somewhat of a giant killer to those in the loop. :trust:

I've been playing around with platter mats over the last few days and have compared the Original Garrard 301 and Tenuto platter mat against the Lenco original mat. From the offset I preferred the Garrard 301 mat over the Lenco mat and have happily listened to the Lenco using this mat but then I started critical listening to the Tenuto mat. Two nights of critical listening have confirmed what I already suspected in that the Tenuto trounced the Garrard 301 mat. Its nice to know that my initial thoughts and findings where confirmed again on a completely different deck, tonearm, cartridge and tonearm cable. I compared several tracks and found that when I listened to Marillion's "Emerald Lies" I heard a more cohesive, wider soundstage and the song just sounded correct with the Tenuto mat. I had a slightly different finding when listening to Fleetwood Mac's "The Chain" in that the Tenuto provided less surface noise, blacker background, better presented bass which to my ears appeared fuller and slightly more attack. Judas Priest "The Ripper" was presented with a greater clarity to the treble and Rob Halford's phrasing was clear and articulate. Janis Joplin "Mercedes Benz" was only slightly better with the Tenuto in that I could hear more emotion in her vocals compared to the Garrard 301 mat. I now need to compare the Studio Analog crystal mat against the Tenuto. In some respects I'm hoping the Crystal mat wins, it's costs £70 delievered and is considerably less expensive than the Tenuto mat and I'm afraid I would have to keep a look out for a second hand specimen ifI was to buy another Tenuto mat, I'm not splashing out over £300 on another platter mat.

The Future..??

So, it looks like my platter mat experiments are coming to an end it's either another Crystal mat or a second hand Tenuto mat but this leaves me in a quandry with regards my cart. I think that I'm probably at some point going to look for a second hand MM cart with the old style JICO SAS stylus and then retrofit onto the M55E. This would hopfully improve the insight I'm already seeing with the current combination I'm running but at a fraction of the cost. I have been running a 350g pure copper record puck which has been flattening out my warped vinyl all lovely and I believe has contributed to the noise I'm hearing. I've seen a very nice 350g stainless steel puck from Hungary costing £55 which could be my final bit of bling for the Lenco. I'm not willing to change anything else on the Lenco as I'm happy with it's presentation so I guess the only real way forward would be a new plinth, PTP6, modded bearing and as much decoupling as I can stuff in a plinth. Things are about to get more exciting now that my speed controller has been finished, THANKS JEZ. :cool: I hope to see some of the benefits that the Pheonix Roadrunner system brought to my 301. Finally I have been asked by a few people to detail what's been done to the Lenco so here is a list of the mods so far

1. Heavyweight birchply plinth
2. Replaced Tonearm with Alphason HR100s
3. Replaced Cartridge with Shure M55E + JICO stylus
4. Replaced Tonearm cable with Nordost TYR & Eichmann silver bullets
5. Bearing completely stripped, ultrasonically cleaned & lightly upgraded with Ceramic bearing, PEEK thrust plate and liberal application of lithium grease.
6. All excessive gubbins stripped and removed.
7. Top plate slightly stiffened by filling all holes with Epoxy, then top plate stripped and primed and resprayed.
8. Motor completely stripped, serviced, oiled, ultrasonically cleaned.
9. New lightweight power lead with silver plated plug and fuse
10. Stacked double platters, polished to high finish with spindle extension.
11. 350g solid copper record puck.
12. ? Tenuto Gun Metal platter mat or Analog Studio crystal mat.
13. Nigels Speed Controller.

Phew, I'm off. :D

[Jimbo]

A lot of work there Andy, I am sure it sounds great now. In my opinion the 2M black is better than the M55e with JICO SAS however that depends on your tone arm match. I can understand you wanting to move away from Ortofon but it really is an incredibly good cartridge.

Have you tried your Decca on the Lenco yet, could be interesting?

[Wakefield Turntables]

Jim,

i figured the 2m black would be very good but I have the ortofon cadenza black if I want clinical detail. I've not tried the DECCA on the 75 and TBH I don't think I will be doing either. The 75 does sound very good and gives my 301 a very good run for its money.

[Jimbo]

Jim,

i figured the 2m black would be very good but I have the ortofon cadenza black if I want clinical detail. I've not tried the DECCA on the 75 and TBH I don't think I will be doing either. The 75 does sound very good and gives my 301 a very good run for its money.

Nice to hear your project worked out so well and can now compete with the 301. I understand where your hesitation comes from now using the 2M black and the Decca probably gels very well with the 301, a combination I used to have.

Good luck getting a JICO SAS with boron cantilever, maybe difficult but by all accounts the new sapphire versions JICO are producing are the same with the same micro ridge profile. I recently read a comparison made by a cartridge designer between boron and sapphire and there were no discernible differences to the sound?:)

[brian2957]

All right gents:) Andy can you clear your inbox please .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Now cleared.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I recently read a comparison made by a cartridge designer between boron and sapphire and there were no discernible differences to the sound?:)

Now that sounds like good news. I'm happy to plod on with the Shure for the time being until something crops up ;)

[brian2957]

Pm sent mate.

[Shadow Moses]

Interested to know the difference the Nigel speed controller made, as I'm contemplating it

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights Update - Mats pt 2 & PSU musings

PSU's

The speed controller is a nice piece of kit in that it provides a nice clean power supply into the Lenco motor which some people claim fetches sonic improvements you can also have a play with power leads if thats your thing. Personally I like the idea of a nice simply screened power lead with a decent plug and male IEC socket. I'm not a big fan of power leads but I'm a lot more tolerant than I used to be and if that floats your boat, more power to you. I'll be boring and stick with my usual screened Belden jobbie. Decent platter speed stability should give a better soundstage presentation with more cohesion and better seperation between the instruments. Some members of Lenco Heaven have experimented with the Hz and Voltage levels into the '75s motor and have claimed a marked improvement in sonics. There are topics over on LH with some experimental to suggest that a decreased voltage and Hz levels into the motor reduced vibration levels and also improves the dB levels going through the bearings. I have spoken to numerous Garrard 301 guru's that have claimed improved sonics with reduced voltage levels and if you read enough threads the consensus of opinion seems to be that sonic benefits can be gained by experimenting with these two variables. We shall see :D. I have first to evaluate the Studio analog crystal mat, i shall be starting critical listening on Monday. I can't be bothered tonight !

MAT's Pt 2

I thought I'd write a few things about my mat selection. My main reference mats are the Studio Analog crystal mat on my 1210 and the Tenuto gun metal mat on the Garrard 301. I've been through numerous mats and some of the mats I hated included those made from EVA and Sorbothane. I really couldn't see any improvement with cork, the standard rubber mat on the 1210 seemed pretty poor whilst the mat on the 301 remained king for ages before being replaced with the Tenuto mat. Felt i.e. Linn to my ears is a waste of time but you'll get some people swearing they can hear massive differences depending upon the weave of the felt :please: really, :drugs: to be that anal.
I've steadily evolved through the mats and have used the Achromat on the 1210 and the Resomat, the resomat deposed the Achromat and eventually both were replaced with the Crystal mat. If you don't want to spend silly money on the Tenuto platter mat (£329) or £70 for the Crystal mat i would suggest the Resomat which I think can be purchased from eBay for <£40 or if you can find one the Achromat, purchase second hand as I think these cost ~£70 brand new. You can always experiment dampening the platter but these may cost more than a decent second hand platter mat. I used to be sceptical of people swapping bewteen mats and tbh i only notice slight improvements but they are sufficient to warrant an expenditure in my time and money. The jury is still out for me regarding my choice, personally I hope the Crystal mat gives the Tenuto mat a bloody good run for it's money as it's reasonably cheap and at a price point that I'm comfortable. Finally, I look at some of the platter mat material choices from some of the mega Japanese decks of the 1970's i.e. Microseiki, Trio, Nakamichi and you see regular themes of metal and glass, funnily enough these seem to be my materials of choice but the weird thing is (for me at least) that metal seems to sound better on Idler drives whilst glass on the DD?

Next on the list.. record pucks...well some thoughts at leasts, that's in a few days time once we've concluded the platter mat experiments.

Until then.. see yeah.

[brian2957]

Nothing like being thorough Andy :D I wish I had your patience and tenacity mate . It's good that you have two of your favourite mats to hand for this experiment and I'm looking forward to your findings . TBH the Tenuto mat won't be happening any time soon , but the Crystal glass mat may be a possibility depending on your feedback .
Do you now have the speed controller in your possession ? If so I'll be interested in your findings on how much this changes the characteristics of the GL75 .

[Wakefield Turntables]

The Crystal Mat is actually a much cheaper version of the Nagaoka mat which Marco uses I could find no difference in the construction of the mat apart from the fact one was considerably cheaper than the other. I dont have the speed controller yet, it's still in the ether.... ;)

[brian2957]

Well , I may be interested in one of these Crystal glass if it suits the GL75 Andy .

I was contemplating the speed controller as I was having problems with the idler wheel and its connection to the motor spindle . I took a chance on one which was being sold on Ebay and it appears that the shaft on mine had a slight kink . The idler wheel is now sitting beautifully on the motor spindle :)
Just some info for anyone who may be interested . The idler wheel on mine had two holes , however , the one which I purchased on Ebay is the one with six holes and the rubber on the wheel appears to be slightly thicker , apparently making a better contact between idler shaft and platter .

[Wakefield Turntables]

You might want to take your platter off and have a look on the underside for rubber residue from the old idler wheel. I soaked my platter in some warm soapy water and scrubbed some old residue off from the underside with an old used toothbrush. I have no idea if its improved things but my logic was simple, could the excess rubber residue be buggering around with the idler wheel tracking? It's just another little job that costs nothing to do and may improve the deck's performance.

[brian2957]

I saw that before I went away Andy and I have a feeling you may be right with this one . That'll be my job for tomorrow methinks :)
I believe that a culmination of little upgrades and cleaning of parts can make quite a big difference to the SQ of this turntable .
This has made a difference BTW http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=21002.0 It has removed any semblance of play from the idler wheel , costs very little , and only takes minutes to fit .

[helma]

Altering the supply voltage surely makes a different in how the motor behaves - also back in the day these motors were designed for 220V while these days most of Europe have 230-240V and UK mains perhaps can go even higher than that? I used to have a series resistor in front of the motor to drop the voltage to around 210V, it did make a noticeable difference in motor vibration and I've had similar experience with the Dual motors - lowering the voltage too much on the other hand and the vibration starts to get worse again. I imagine somewhere around 200-220V would probably be the sweet spot for the Lenco. The series resistor was ok for testing, but I wasn't comfortable with the arrangement because it's not stable but the voltage alters when the motor tries to draw more current. Can't say I heard anything negative really, but then again getting rid of it I imagined hearing some more 'oomph' in the way the Lenco plodded through, but that was probably all in my head...

[Wakefield Turntables]

Altering the supply voltage surely makes a different in how the motor behaves - also back in the day these motors were designed for 220V while these days most of Europe have 230-240V and UK mains perhaps can go even higher than that? I used to have a series resistor in front of the motor to drop the voltage to around 210V, it did make a noticeable difference in motor vibration and I've had similar experience with the Dual motors - lowering the voltage too much on the other hand and the vibration starts to get worse again. I imagine somewhere around 200-220V would probably be the sweet spot for the Lenco. The series resistor was ok for testing, but I wasn't comfortable with the arrangement because it's not stable but the voltage alters when the motor tries to draw more current. Can't say I heard anything negative really, but then again getting rid of it I imagined hearing some more 'oomph' in the way the Lenco plodded through, but that was probably all in my head...

Excellent post Kai, that's new way of dropping the voltage, have heard about the lightbulb trick? I have also heard that somewhere between 200-220v seems to be the way forward. I guess we are going to listen to some vinyl to find out :D
i don't think you were imagined anything wrong, too many people have reported similar findings. I noticed a similar finding on my 301 when I did similar experiments and I'm extremely sceptical of such things.

[Wakefield Turntables]

I saw that before I went away Andy and I have a feeling you may be right with this one . That'll be my job for tomorrow methinks :)
I believe that a culmination of little upgrades and cleaning of parts can make quite a big difference to the SQ of this turntable .
This has made a difference BTW http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=21002.0 It has removed any semblance of play from the idler wheel , costs very little , and only takes minutes to fit .

I will have a look at this Brian, there are two or three tweeks for the idler arm that I could try I might just do all of them at the same time and see if I can hear any improvements, this is another tweek that will have to wait. I have the crystal mat to evaluate and then the speed controller. :doh:

[brian2957]

I will have a look at this Brian, there are two or three tweeks for the idler arm that I could try I might just do all of them at the same time and see if I can hear any improvements, this is another tweek that will have to wait. I have the crystal mat to evaluate and then the speed controller. :doh:

:popcorn: :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights post - Bearings Pt 2

I got around to thinking today if we actually need to replace the stock bearing in a '75.A very good service and clean of the stock bearing and the elimination of excessive vibration into the top plate by careful control of the Hz and voltage and additional mass with an additional platter or heavy mat be enough to get the same benefits as simply the replacing the bearing with something after market???? The cost of an additional platter and a heavy mat is less than £100 while the two main bearings on my list are £180 and £230. I've changed the tonearm height of the Alphason by several mm's to accomodate the extra depth of the Analog Studio crystal mat and some not very critical listening will start tonight. The speed controller will be next on the evaluation list and I'll probably need several weeks of listening to the speed controller with my mat of choice (whatever that's going to be) before I have an idea of how the '75 sounds. It's then when I intend to ask the producers of these bearing if they'll lend me one to do some VERY critical listening to see if what they have to offer actually improves the sonic performance of the '75. I will quite happily cough up the readies if either bearing improves the performance of the deck. :trust:. Part of the fun with this journey has been to see where we can save money to get the maximum performance from the '75 and I saved at least £150 by not getting another record puck. I've decided that the 1.2kg monster that lives of the Garrard 301 can also be shared alongside the technics 1210 and the '75, this both saves my wallet and prevents more detritus from entering my man sanctuary. :lol: The savings on a new record puck will either go towards an after market bearing if I can prise one away from the manufacturers or the top stylus from JICO for the Shure M55E. If the bearing on the '75 is as good as the stock bearing on the Garrard 301/401 then I'd probably be as well just sticking with the stock jobbie from Lenco. I must admit that I run a stock Garrard 401 bearing on my 301 and it has been stripped, serviced and ultrasonically cleaned to within an inch of it's life and it does sound better than the stock 301 bearing. The general consensus of opinon within the Garrard guru community is that Garrard got it right first time and you don't need to spend stupid amounts of money that are being asked by the after market producers of said garrard 301 bearings. In theory if Garrard can do this why can't Lenco? Currently Lenco '75 bearings are cheap and cheerful and can be purchased for <£30 on eBay, perhaps the Lenco bearing could be one of the best kept secrets out there. ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Platter Mats - Pt 3

Short post tonight. The Crystal mat does sound very good on the '75 and as I suspected it's not in the same league as the Tenuto mat but at 70% cheaper what do you expect? The crystal mat dosen't exhibit the clarity of the Tenuto and microdetail is not quite as good but there again I have seen a steady evolution in the improvement of the various platter mats that I've tried with the '75 and I'm more than happy to spend the £70 on another mat. I've taken my time with the Lenco and have seen a slow but steady improvement on what the deck has to offer. It's quite funny really because neither the 301 or 1210 have been played in over several weeks. I think that I can conclude the platter mat experiment and stick with the Crystal mat I'm happy with my findings, altough the Alphason arm is nearly at the very end of its pillar height!!! It's been quite an interesting experiment so far in that I've gained a lot of respect for the Shure, Alphason and Lenco brands all of which prior to this experiment had not been on my Radar. So, the speed controller should eventually show up and that is where the next bout of experimentation lies.

The deck has now had the following work done
1. Heavyweight birchply plinth
2. Replaced Tonearm with Alphason HR100s
3. Replaced Cartridge with Shure M55E + JICO stylus
4. Replaced Tonearm cable with Nordost TYR & Eichmann silver bullets
5. Bearing completely stripped, ultrasonically cleaned & lightly upgraded with Ceramic bearing, PEEK thrust plate and liberal application of lithium grease.
6. All excessive gubbins stripped and removed.
7. Top plate slightly stiffened by filling all holes with Epoxy, then top plate stripped and primed and resprayed.
8. Motor completely stripped, serviced, oiled, ultrasonically cleaned.
9. New lightweight power lead with silver plated plug and fuse
10. Stacked double platters, polished to high finish with spindle extension.
11. 350g solid copper record puck.
12. Analog Studio crystal mat.
13. Nigels Speed Controller.

[brian2957]

Nice write-up again Andy . The only things I have done to my GL75 so far have been :

Stripped the bearing and fitted PEEK thrust pad and ceramic bearing . Lubricated with Lithium grease .

Fitted bearing collar .

Fitted new V-blocks to the tonearm .

Fitted a Shure M55E and basic Jico stylus .

Replaced the idler wheel and shaft ( there was a slight kink in the original shaft and the six hole idler wheel seems more substantial than the two hole one )

Fitted a little locking collar to the idler wheel which has removed a small amount of wobble .

Fitted large oak cones to the bottom of the turntable .

All these little tweeks have improved the turntable incrementally .

I take it the crystal mat is an improvement over the original one .
I'm trying to keep this GL75 as original as possible , however , when funds allow I will probably buy another one and follow the route you have taken with yours .
Good work Andy :)

[Jimbo]

Nice write-up again Andy . The only things I have done to my GL75 so far have been :

Stripped the bearing and fitted PEEK thrust pad and ceramic bearing . Lubricated with Lithium grease .

Fitted bearing collar .

Fitted new V-blocks to the tonearm .

Fitted a Shure M55E and basic Jico stylus .

Replaced the idler wheel and shaft ( there was a slight kink in the original shaft and the six hole idler wheel seems more substantial than the two hole one )

Fitted a little locking collar to the idler wheel which has removed a small amount of wobble .

Fitted large oak cones to the bottom of the turntable .

All these little tweeks have improved the turntable incrementally .

I take it the crystal mat is an improvement over the original one .
I'm trying to keep this GL75 as original as possible , however , when funds allow I will probably buy another one and follow the route you have taken with yours .
Good work Andy :)

Hi Brian,

Playing much vinyl?:)

[brian2957]

Was away last week James , came back on Sunday and was quite surprised at how good the GL75 was sounding . So yes mate . Most of Sunday and a fair bit Monday and Tuesday :)

Unfortunately I've got to sleep sometimes :lol:

[Wakefield Turntables]

Brian,
Just a word of warning re the crystal mat. It's 6mm thick so you might have to play around with the Lencos tone arm pillar to heighten the tone arm to accommodate the extra thickness. Also re check cartridge tracking weight and that's it's parallel to the vinyl, mine got buggered up when I started using it on the Lenco. Secondly I would counsel that you "learn" the sound of your Lenco intimately and then that way you can discern where the crystal mat has improved things. It took me ages to recognise the effects on the soundstage when I first started using them.

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy , I'll have to investigate further before spending any more on this mat .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - Idle thoughts!

Platter Mats Pt 4 - Or special Brian edition - Definite last thoughts on Lenco platter mats!

I spoke to my old mate Brian today and chewed the fat a bit with regards platter mats. Brian wants to keep his Lenco stock and TBH I love that idea. I do think that the stock deck can be improved marginally with the addition of a second platter mat under the original Lenco offering. So, I advised Brian to either look for a cork mat or possibly the unfortunately names "Gimp" mat from eBay

My current platter mat setup until the new Crystal mat arrives. The Garrard 301 + Gimp mat, I'm currently listening to this and can't believe how good these two mats sound.

.18229

The Gimp mat, £15 from eBay.

18228

Of course you might want to try Cork under the Lenco mat I've heard that this produces pretty good results but unfortunately haven't had chance to assess. The gimp mat adds an additional 2mm height so VTA, and tracking forces would need to be checked but TBH I dont think it would make that much difference.

Thoughts on the Idler Arm pt 1

More discussion with Brian got me round to thinking about the Idler arm and also vibration supression into the bearing, and idler arm break and indeed the idler wheel. So, I went into the cellar at work and fetch home some offcuts to play around with. So we have some EVA, Sorbothane or Eurethane. The idea is to make some washers using the various materials to act as dampeners.

18230

This picture shows the underside of my deck. The break has now been removed. I was thinking about getting some new longer screws for the bearing alongside some washers and additional for the idler arm break. My thoughts are to add additional Sorbothane or EVA washer under the screw and then tighten the nuts, the logic is simple. Sorbothane works by supressing vibration whilst being loaded with a vertial weight. The nut and washer will be added the vertical load so should supression vibration getting into the three screws that hold the bearing. The idler arm break will also recieve the same treatment but I'll cut a small piece of Sorbothane to match the surface area of the break and then attach this to the top plate with a new long screw and then add a sorbothane on the underside of the top plate and tighten. This should help vibration getting into the idler arm. I also think that the speed adjustment slider, and idler parking arm could also benefit from vibration supression. It's kind of hard to detail what I mean so I guess I need to post some pictures at some point.

18231


I decided to have a look at my idler wheel today to check for oscillation and I'm buggered to report that my idler wheel does indeed have a small amount of oscillation. I did have a video prepared but unfortunately it was too big to attach to this post. :( Brian has pointed out that a fix does exist and it has now been ordered I will post pictures when said fix has been applied. I will not be dampening the idler arm with PTFE tape as now evidence exists to prove it's efficacy. I will not be buying a replacement titanium idler arm or adding a stut across the the top of idler arm again no efficacy exists and I additionally believe that stiffening the idler arm too much may actually have an effect of pulling the idler wheel away from the true position on the motor spindle to achieve 33.3 rpm (just my own thoughts).


These little thoughts and tweeks have gone down on my list of stuff to do bewteen now and Xmas. The speed controller should be with me soon so I'll probably start talking about that. I will then start to implement some of these tweeks and then once I've gained a better understanding of how the speed controller is affecting the '75 can comment further on if any of this waffle has been beneficial or a red herring.

OK, bugger off you lot (meant in the nicest possible way). :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Mats Pt IV - The very last ever ever post here guv'nor. Honest. :eek:

Well whilst waiting for the speed controller I thought I'd compare the Crystal mat with the Garrard / Gimp mat setup, and............. the Garrard/Gimp setup wins. There is just something about this combo which sounds correct. The Crystal mat does indeed bring out more detail but overall I have to go with my heart and ears and I have to say that I do not like the Crystal mat on the '75. So, I've saved myself £70 and not bought another Crystal mat. I don't know why but glass / aluminium / copper seems to sound better on DD decks compared to my Idler's. This has now happened with my 301 and '75. The Speed controller is now in Wakefield (I hope) so it'll get picked up tonight and then it's on with the Speed controller experiments. The idler arm will probably get some attention in November and then it should be fun decoupling the bearing from the top plate in December. :cool:

[brian2957]

Just saw this Andy as I've been nightshift and sleeping for most of the day :( . Again , another informative write-up on your experiments with the GL75 . I have ordered the '' unfortunately named '' Gimp mat to try with the original GL75 mat . Did you say Gimp mat top or bottom mate ? It's really interesting how these mats interact with these turntables .
As I want to keep the GL75 as stock as possible , I'm not sure about removing parts , even if they aren't getting used . So I may just put some kind of vibration suppression in there .
Good move getting the little clamp for the idler wheel . It also comes with two little Teflon washers and is indeed an effective way of removing any play . I'll be watching with interest on how the speed controller affects the performance of the GL75 .
Thanks again Andy for sharing your thoughts on these modifications in such detail :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Plonk your gimp under your Lenco mat. It might be worthwhile looking for an old radiogram, maybe in the charity shops or free ads locally to possibly source a mat similar to the Garrard, that is if you fancy trying out more mat combo's. I've got a cork mat but I honestly can't be bothered with more mat experiments they are both costly on sanity, time and listening to vinyl. :D I've been looking closely at decoupling the bearing I think that this could be probably one of the best free tweaks that's possible on these idlers. There is an article here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=5186.0 which might be of some benefit. I'm now about 75% through reading all the theads on Lenco Heaven and the components forum is the one where I feel I'm going to get more clues to get more out of this deck.

[brian2957]

Thanks Andy , that's a plan then regarding the mats . I'll have to keep my eye open for any other mats on old gear to try . The thread you linked to on Lenco Heaven looks very interesting and will be my reading for the nightshift tonight .
Last night I discovered that the suspension springs had to go on a certain way and that they are different sizes so the GL75 will be getting taken to bits again :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Last night I discovered that the suspension springs had to go on a certain way and that they are different sizes so the GL75 will be getting taken to bits again :D

Do you have a set of measuring calipers? If so you might want to use them to measure the spring height. There is a guide over on LH with the correct spring heights and there are several versions of the springs, just to complicate things. You might also want to take some photo's of the springs in position as they are and then that way you can always put them back, ESPECIALLY IF THE DECK IS SOUNDING GOOD!!!!! Be careful with the springs as getting them wrong might start nasty noises that weren't their before. :)

[brian2957]

Understood mate . However , certain springs go to the motor side , they're different diameter I think . You're right though to mark what goes where before making changes as the deck is sounding pretty good . Good advice there mate .

[Wakefield Turntables]

You might also want to find some old foam and try stuffing it into the springs, altough don't stretch them as you loose the isolation of vibration into the top plate. I remember seeing some old foam inserts when I restored a Thorens TD150, again this tweek may not do anything but I suppose if you dont try you'll never know.

[brian2957]

Aye that might be a good idea mate . I'll have to have a hunt around for some old seat foam in the garage .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Brian,

More reading for tonights shift??

http://www.idler-wheel-drive.com/home/

[brian2957]

Looks full of information Andy , should pass a few hours . Ta

[Wakefield Turntables]

Last post honest Brian, you might want to google applied fidelity bearing, just for fun!

[brian2957]

Ok mate will do cheers .

[Wakefield Turntables]

Looks like I'm going to have to do an isolation and vibration supression special pretty soon. I can see lots of good logical ideas that might push this deck further than ever.

[brian2957]

Yup , I'll be interested in your experimentation in this area Andy and hopefully have some useful input .

[Jimbo]

Looks like I'm going to have to do an isolation and vibration supression special pretty soon. I can see lots of good logical ideas that might push this deck further than ever.

Do you have any suspension in the deck at all now Andy or it just a solid plinth. If so can you attach any feet with sound absorption and then place on a maple board maybe with sorbathane Isopods underneath. I have this type of arrangement under my VPI which works very well. I have a special laminate board instead of maple.

[CornishPasty]

Get a mat from a GL78. It looks very similar to the Garrard mat and leaves the 75 mat for dead.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Do you have any suspension in the deck at all now Andy or it just a solid plinth. If so can you attach any feet with sound absorption and then place on a maple board maybe with sorbathane Isopods underneath. I have this type of arrangement under my VPI which works very well. I have a special laminate board instead of maple.

The deck has three circular birch ply feet sitting on 8mm sorbothane. I'm having some beers right now so we post some pictures tomorrow.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nigel's Speed controller arrived, thanks Jez. Will get it linked up tomorrow and start experimenting, :hotrod:

[walpurgis]

I'm having some beers right now

Ah. Well cheers Andy. I shall no doubt join you later! :) :cool:

[Jimbo]

Just sipped a nice bottle of Marstons Pedigree.:)

[brian2957]

Nightshift :(

Enjoy your night gents , whatever you're doing :)

New Agnes Obel has arrived James but only enough time to remove the packaging . Off tomorrow though :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

Nigels speed controller in the house and now spinning some Led Zeppelin. Far too early to comment. I might post some thoughts tonight.

Andy

[brian2957]

Been looking forward to this :)

I checked the springs today Andy and discovered that they can only go one way . They're different diameters and , and as the circular cutouts in the base are different sizes to accomodate the bases of the springs , they have to go into their respective holes . They were in the correct positions already . Never mind I'm sure all is well with them now .
One of the reasons that I checked is because the turntable isn't 100% level and it's still the same :rolleyes:

[Jimbo]

Nightshift :(

Enjoy your night gents , whatever you're doing :)

New Agnes Obel has arrived James but only enough time to remove the packaging . Off tomorrow though :)

Enjoy Agnes Brian, she has pulled off a stunning album with this one. Production is top notch.:thumbsup:

[brian2957]

I had a brief listen today James and it sounds very promising . More later methinks :)

[struth]

Been looking forward to this :)

I checked the springs today Andy and discovered that they can only go one way . They're different diameters and , and as the circular cutouts in the base are different sizes to accomodate the bases of the springs , they have to go into their respective holes . They were in the correct positions already . Never mind I'm sure all is well with them now .
One of the reasons that I checked is because the turntable isn't 100% level and it's still the same :rolleyes:

you could maybe use a shoe to level the spring Brian. Need to make it of course but would solve the problem if its not too much

[brian2957]

you could maybe use a shoe to level the spring Brian. Need to make it of course but would solve the problem if its not too much

Not sure what to do Grant . TBH it's not that far out , but it is bugging me a little .

[Wakefield Turntables]

I hate it when things bug me when it comes to setting up a turntable. I hate it even more when you think you've corrected something but inadvertently buggered the sonics of the deck up. :doh:

[Jimbo]

I hate it when things bug me when it comes to setting up a turntable. I hate it even more when you think you've corrected something but inadvertently buggered the sonics of the deck up. :doh:

Yep I know how you feel Andy, did the same myself when setting up mine last nite. Still sounding bit off today or are my ears trying to re adjust to my 2M Black? It sounds very slightly distorted in some areas but can't put my finger on it?:scratch:

[brian2957]

Nah mate , not buggered it up , it's sounding rather sublime with the new Agnes Obel album spinning :D

[Wakefield Turntables]

Tonights update - Some porn and Nigels Speed Controller

Having a little time on my hands I decided to raise the Shure another 1mm above the Vinyl and boy what a surprise I got big improvements with the soundstage. It seems the old Shure was slightly too low and this reminds me of when I was setting up my Cadenza Black. I remember literally tearing hair out before I got it set up to my liking. Ortofon cartridges can be fussy buggers. ;)


18247

This is the deck as it now looks. I've been using a 1.2kg solid copper weight for some time and it has no effect on the speed stability of the '75. It flattens out warped records a treat and sounds excellent with the Tenuto gun metal mat but I've closed the wallet a bit with this project and saved some money on platter mats by going back to an excellent combo of Garrard & Gimp (Sound's like a 1970's comedy act).

18248


And here it is my speed controller made by Jez of Arkless electronics. I was really missing some grab handles in my life and I love the Audio Research cases from the 70's so here we have it. The speed controller could have gone into something much smaller but hey ho! Voltage drifts a little but in general stays around the 220V level, Hz stays spot on 50Hz. The lenco motor was designed to run at 220V and that's where I've decided to experiment. I read discussions where less than 200V and the deck starts to sound lazy and the soundstage presentation looses cohesion and vibrancy so it looks like a few weeks of listening at 10V increments to see if I can discern any differences.

18249

The deck is sitting on top of the speed controller which is not the best place but for tonights first few vinyl spins will suffice. I'll probably put the speed controller on the floor and then level the deck out on the small table where it currently resides.


18250

First impressions are very good. Low level listening is very detailed and the best words I can think of are poise and balance. There seems to be an improved sense of timing in the soundstage with instruments just seeming to flow. Similar results where gained when I bought my Eagle Roadrunner / PSU system for my 301. The deck is now sounding just as good as the 301 when played through my Sugden phonostage altough the 301 has the better pre-amp/phonostage so to my ears still wins out over the Lenco but the old Lenco is not that far behind it. I will say that this is the best soundstage presentation that I've ever heard a MM cartridge produce :trust:. I'll really need to get some listening in before I can really comment on the speed controllers effects.

[brian2957]

Nice case Andy , it certainly looks the part . Must be fairly bid and robust if you have the turntable sitting on top of it . Good to hear that initial impressions are positive .
Are you adjusting the arm height to get improvements on the M55e ? . This may be worth looking into after I've fitted the new mat . We'll see :)

[Arkless Electronics]

I'm really pleased it's worked out as a definite improvement for you Andy:)

The small volts drift seemed to me to be temperature dependent when I had it on test and is just a characteristic of the XR2206 IC.
It wouldn't do that if I'd designed it:D:eyebrows:

A few nights ago I tried raising the arm pillar about a mm on my own deck and I must say the difference was surprising... and for the better!

[CornishPasty]

Not sure what to do Grant . TBH it's not that far out , but it is bugging me a little .

I cut circles out of thin cardboard and put them under the feet as required to level the deck.

[brian2957]

Thanks Ralph , that will probably work :)

[brian2957]

The Fonotek ( Gimp ) mat has arrived so I'll try to get some listening done in the next few days .

[brian2957]

Tonights update - Some porn and Nigels Speed Controller

Having a little time on my hands I decided to raise the Shure another 1mm above the Vinyl and boy what a surprise I got big improvements with the soundstage. It seems the old Shure was slightly too low and this reminds me of when I was setting up my Cadenza Black. I remember literally tearing hair out before I got it set up to my liking. Ortofon cartridges can be fussy buggers. ;)


18247

This is the deck as it now looks. I've been using a 1.2kg solid copper weight for some time and it has no effect on the speed stability of the '75. It flattens out warped records a treat and sounds excellent with the Tenuto gun metal mat but I've closed the wallet a bit with this project and saved some money on platter mats by going back to an excellent combo of Garrard & Gimp (Sound's like a 1970's comedy act).

18248


And here it is my speed controller made by Jez of Arkless electronics. I was really missing some grab handles in my life and I love the Audio Research cases from the 70's so here we have it. The speed controller could have gone into something much smaller but hey ho! Voltage drifts a little but in general stays around the 220V level, Hz stays spot on 50Hz. The lenco motor was designed to run at 220V and that's where I've decided to experiment. I read discussions where less than 200V and the deck starts to sound lazy and the soundstage presentation looses cohesion and vibrancy so it looks like a few weeks of listening at 10V increments to see if I can discern any differences.

18249

The deck is sitting on top of the speed controller which is not the best place but for tonights first few vinyl spins will suffice. I'll probably put the speed controller on the floor and then level the deck out on the small table where it currently resides.


18250

First impressions are very good. Low level listening is very detailed and the best words I can think of are poise and balance. There seems to be an improved sense of timing in the soundstage with instruments just seeming to flow. Similar results where gained when I bought my Eagle Roadrunner / PSU system for my 301. The deck is now sounding just as good as the 301 when played through my Sugden phonostage altough the 301 has the better pre-amp/phonostage so to my ears still wins out over the Lenco but the old Lenco is not that far behind it. I will say that this is the best soundstage presentation that I've ever heard a MM cartridge produce :trust:. I'll really need to get some listening in before I can really comment on the speed controllers effects.

Just for me to be sure here Andy , is the arm now parallel to the platter , or slightly raised at the rear ?

[Wakefield Turntables]

The whole tonearm is parallel to the vinyl and the cartridge is also parallel to the vinyl.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Not much listening done today, Daddy duties kinda get in the way ;) The Nigels Speed Controller (know known as the NSC) has changed the soundstage presentation and thankfully its positive news. Firstly I'm not using fancy mains leads or connectors, the power lead from the '75 is a simple £1 per meter cable that I use because its light weight and flexible the IEC connector was £2.59 from Maplins. The power lead from the NSC to the mains was a spare kettle lead that I had sitting around in the garage. I've never been a big fan of mains leads or connectors and I have to admit that I will probably upgrade the NSC power cable for some screened Belden but I do use this with ALL my pieces of kit. I have also not been tempted to plug the NSC into my PS Audio P10 regenerator. The NSC does actually clean the power supply up and present the Lenco with something which should be pretty crap free. Perhaps some nice leads could improve the Lenco I do have some sitting around and perhaps we could try some for a bit of fun when I've sussed out the NSC. Now some thoughts on the NSC.

The soundstage now seems more poised and things seems a little laid back but I think this is the presentation of the Shure as this has been commented on before. I would say the soundstage has an improved sense of timing with things just flowing quite naturally but never in a rushed sense and it gives you with the ability to enjoy echo, reverb, and assess other instruments and their interactions quite easily. Clarity seems to be another strong point of the NSC things just seem to have slghtly more focus. Bass is a little light and perhaps the '75 dosen't have the heft or power of the 1210 but again it's perfectly enjoyable. Again, I'm thinking the Shure is the bottle neck in this decks performance and perhaps the Alphason might get my Shure V15 mk 3 with swanky stylus, the JICO SAS stylus (the expensive one) for the M55E or the Denon 103M that I have sitting around as the next cartridge. I have to say that backgrounds are now very dark and this deck really does eek out extra performance when it's presented with a well pressed/looked after piece of vinyl. It's still way too early to really provide an in-depth analysis of the NSC but suffice to say I'm not going back to how things were and it looks like it's highlighted where the next upgrades are probably going to come from.

1. A better cart or stylus for the M55E
2. Decoupling the bearing to elimate even further vibration from the motor.

[Arkless Electronics]

Not much listening done today, Daddy duties kinda get in the way ;) The Nigels Speed Controller (know known as the NSC) has changed the soundstage presentation and thankfully its positive news. Firstly I'm not using fancy mains leads or connectors, the power lead from the '75 is a simple £1 per meter cable that I use because its light weight and flexible the IEC connector was £2.59 from Maplins. The power lead from the NSC to the mains was a spare kettle lead that I had sitting around in the garage. I've never been a big fan of mains leads or connectors and I have to admit that I will probably upgrade the NSC power cable for some screened Belden but I do use this with ALL my pieces of kit. I have also not been tempted to plug the NSC into my PS Audio P10 regenerator. The NSC does actually clean the power supply up and present the Lenco with something which should be pretty crap free. Perhaps some nice leads could improve the Lenco I do have some sitting around and perhaps we could try some for a bit of fun when I've sussed out the NSC. Now some thoughts on the NSC.

The soundstage now seems more poised and things seems a little laid back but I think this is the presentation of the Shure as this has been commented on before. I would say the soundstage has an improved sense of timing with things just flowing quite naturally but never in a rushed sense and it gives you with the ability to enjoy echo, reverb, and assess other instruments and their interactions quite easily. Clarity seems to be another strong point of the NSC things just seem to have slghtly more focus. Bass is a little light and perhaps the '75 dosen't have the heft or power of the 1210 but again it's perfectly enjoyable. Again, I'm thinking the Shure is the bottle neck in this decks performance and perhaps the Alphason might get my Shure V15 mk 3 with swanky stylus, the JICO SAS stylus (the expensive one) for the M55E or the Denon 103M that I have sitting around as the next cartridge. I have to say that backgrounds are now very dark and this deck really does eek out extra performance when it's presented with a well pressed/looked after piece of vinyl. It's still way too early to really provide an in-depth analysis of the NSC but suffice to say I'm not going back to how things were and it looks like it's highlighted where the next upgrades are probably going to come from.

1. A better cart or stylus for the M55E
2. Decoupling the bearing to elimate even further vibration from the motor.

The NSC in effect IS a mains regenerator but with variable output voltage and frequency and at a power level suitable only for TT's (or I suppose anything that draws only 25W or so maximum) ;)

[Wakefield Turntables]

OK hands up in the air and I stand corrected. :thumbsup:

[brian2957]

The whole tonearm is parallel to the vinyl and the cartridge is also parallel to the vinyl.

That's interesting Andy . Mine was a little high at the rear but now sits parallel with the Fonotek mat fitted . There is a sonic improvement , but I don't know if it's the new mat or the height adjustment it brings . Don't care really , it just sounds better to these ears :)

[Wakefield Turntables]

That's interesting Andy . Mine was a little high at the rear but now sits parallel with the Fonotek mat fitted . There is a sonic improvement , but I don't know if it's the new mat or the height adjustment it brings . Don't care really , it just sounds better to these ears :)

Brian, both relieved and very pleased for you that the Gimp has worked. I always assumed the Gimp worked but just like you I do have a slight suspicion that the mats have slightly altered the tonearm alignment. Personally, just like you I don't care. So great minds and all that. :gig:

[brian2957]

Not much listening done today, Daddy duties kinda get in the way ;) The Nigels Speed Controller (know known as the NSC) has changed the soundstage presentation and thankfully its positive news. Firstly I'm not using fancy mains leads or connectors, the power lead from the '75 is a simple £1 per meter cable that I use because its light weight and flexible the IEC connector was £2.59 from Maplins. The power lead from the NSC to the mains was a spare kettle lead that I had sitting around in the garage. I've never been a big fan of mains leads or connectors and I have to admit that I will probably upgrade the NSC power cable for some screened Belden but I do use this with ALL my pieces of kit. I have also not been tempted to plug the NSC into my PS Audio P10 regenerator. The NSC does actually clean the power supply up and present the Lenco with something which should be pretty crap free. Perhaps some nice leads could improve the Lenco I do have some sitting around and perhaps we could try some for a bit of fun when I've sussed out the NSC. Now some thoughts on the NSC.

The soundstage now seems more poised and things seems a little laid back but I think this is the presentation of the Shure as this has been commented on before. I would say the soundstage has an improved sense of timing with things just flowing quite naturally but never in a rushed sense and it gives you with the ability to enjoy echo, reverb, and assess other instruments and their interactions quite easily. Clarity seems to be another strong point of the NSC things just seem to have slghtly more focus. Bass is a little light and perhaps the '75 dosen't have the heft or power of the 1210 but again it's perfectly enjoyable. Again, I'm thinking the Shure is the bottle neck in this decks performance and perhaps the Alphason might get my Shure V15 mk 3 with swanky stylus, the JICO SAS stylus (the expensive one) for the M55E or the Denon 103M that I have sitting around as the next cartridge. I have to say that backgrounds are now very dark and this deck really does eek out extra performance when it's presented with a well pressed/looked after piece of vinyl. It's still way too early to really provide an in-depth analysis of the NSC but suffice to say I'm not going back to how things were and it looks like it's highlighted where the next upgrades are probably going to come from.

1. A better cart or stylus for the M55E
2. Decoupling the bearing to elimate even further vibration from the motor.

Nice write up again Andy . It looks like another success story with an upgrade for the GL75 . The options for upgrading are getting scarce now mate . How does it now compare to your other turntables ?
This thread will be a fantastic resource should funds allow me to go down the same path in the future . For now I'm just enjoying the music :)