View Full Version : Is it worth me getting a new turntable?
Hi all, I'm the new bloke stood nervously in the corner. I came to The Art Of Sound while trying to do some turntable research, but I have a fairly specific question. (I have asked this question on another forum, but am looking for as many opinions as I can get) Anyway, here goes:
My current turntable is a Rega Planar 2 (a late 90s model with glass platter), stock arm (RB250?) and a recently-shop-fitted Grado Black cartridge. The 'table itself is okay, but I feel the Black's not nearly as good as the Rega Elys that was fitted when I bought with the 'table (also, the Grado hums significantly when the arm moves towards the spindle; quite annoying). I seem to notice more and more that the Planar spins too fast too (also quite annoying).
I'm currently running the table through a vintage Pioneer SA-408 amp (inherited from my Gran, and I love it), and Tannoy M3 speakers (I know, probably a horrendously mismatched system...).
I've been looking for a while at getting a new 'table, and in the next few weeks, some free money's coming my way, so now might be the time for a change.
Anyway, I've been looking at Thorens, and particularly the TD 125. Recently on eBay, 125s with SME 3009 arms have been selling for about £250, which is about what I've got to spend. (Though I am aware eBay is often overpriced for vintage gear, there's nowhere near me that sells it, that I know of. Possibly a question for another thread, there.)
My long-winded question is whether such a 'table would make a significant difference to my listening, also bearing in mind that much of what I listen to is of a not-necessarily-well-produced scratchy lo-fi/indie/noise-rock stylee?
Thanks in advance,
Howard
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 20:51
hi howard
i doubt you will get away without someone asking you to introduce your self in the apropriate section...
as for your tt, i dont know either deck in question but i would have thought if you are having speed issues then iregardless of what you upgrade to it would be a good thing?
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 20:52
maybe a direct drive would be good if you are sensitive to the speed??? other, more informed, people will expand
First thing, the hum you're hearing isn't uncommon and Rega's own cartridges aren't perfect in this either. It's an additive thing - a nearby transformer possibly adding to the motor's field and magnifying a normally fairly benign "characteristic."
If the P2 is well isolated, the sound with suitable cartridge should be fine. I'd have gone for a new mk2 Elys perhaps, or an AT120e/440MLa or the old favourite DL110 Denon.
Now the TD125. A good one (close fitting bearing with no wobble) carefully fettled should sound really good, although you won't have the "grip" and solid pitch of our favourite Techie. The 125 at its best, is to me, a wonderful vintage turntable and worthy of deep respect IMO, but for similar money, a good SL1200 series can be bought. In standard form, the SL1200 with own arm will at least equal a Rega IMO. Once the fettling starts and the arm is upgraded, it should leapfrog a P5 or P7 easily.
Is that a fair answer. I must get my TD125 going before Christmas..
P.S. The music you listen to DEFINITELY dictates the Techie IMO.....
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 21:15
the technics 1200 is what i was subtly hinting at... there are a lot of people on this forum who own one... its like a bloody club!! dave cawley of soundhifi (http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/index.htm) is a regular round these parts - he is arguably the worlds leading techy fettle expert! nice chap too!! (his timestep psu is the single most impresive upgrade per pound i have ever made to my system)
hifi_dave
12-11-2009, 21:22
OK, I'm gonna be outrageous and suggest you get your turntable sorted out because it shouldn't be running fast and you deserve a better cartridge. Once you've got that done I would suggest you investigate a better amp than the Pioneer - yes, I know you like it but you can upgrade for not much of an outlay and you don't have to ditch it.
Where is your nearest Rega dealer ?
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 21:29
hey howard, i was 'listening to slow riot for zero kanada' for the first time in a few years just the other day!!
Now Dave mate, you should know that most if not all pre 2000 rega's ran slightly fast - I checked all the ones I set up with the very accurate Linn strobe and they were all the same.
To sort out the speed and improve the wow figures, the fixed motor conversion should be considered. Check the arm and main bearing fixings for tightness - don't overdo it, or better, get your local Rega dealer to do it for you.
Set the playing weight to 1.5 grammes or so (slightly higher rather than lower) and set bias to less than "1" for a Grado.
Also, try the thinner P3 mat with the Grado, or even the herbies/Soundhifi mat sold by Dave Cawley over here, as it should work fine with the glass platter as well as the Techie.
The Rega wall-shelf was always the best support for this turntable, although a wooden chopping-block on half squash-balls may be quite ok, or even the sorbothane boots used with the techie (I'm recommending Techie compatible upgrades, as you can see :))
hifi_dave
12-11-2009, 21:48
'Slightly' fast so that with stylus drag they run to speed but it's not audible, I would suggest.:scratch: If it is audible, the TT needs looking at.
I would agree that the motor mod is well worthwhile but I was trying not to spend too much money so that an amp could be considered.
Lots of replies already, thanks! I'll try and respond to everything, though probably in no discernible order.
It's probably my loss, but I've never found Technics tables aesthetically pleasing (even the ones linked to at soundhifi don't do a lot for me, I'm afraid). Interesting to note that they'd suit my music tastes, though...
I actually have no idea where my nearest Rega dealer is; the last time I had it serviced (and had the ill-advised Grado fitted) was at Noteworthy Audio in Aylesbury.
The speed issue with my Rega is very much audible, unfortunately; it plays about half-a-semitone sharp. (I don't have a strobe, but side-by-side comparisons of vinyl and CD are very revealing.) I've heard of a lot of P2 owners of similar vintage having speed and wow/flutter problems, but mine seems to be in a league of its own (though I've never had wow/flutter instability, so that's, er, something).
Is the general consensus that the Rega, once it's been given some TLC, would outperform a Thorens, then?
I hadn't even thought about an amp upgrade... What sort of makes/models should I consider (I'd probably thinking vintage, if possible)?
And, Hamish: Godspeed! Yay! Moya is one of my very favourite pieces of music; I have to dig it out and spin it every now and again.
Thanks again for all the replies so far.
The Vinyl Adventure
12-11-2009, 22:47
I was very into tat sorta thing a few years back, I still love it, but just don't listen to it as much for some reason? Maybe you could recomend me more of that sorta thing? There is a bit of a music sceen in Worcester that still play a lot of that type of thing, or at least a development there of.
I like my fourtet and fridge type stuff more these days, how do you feel about that sort of thing?
Hi Howard,
As with many threads of this type, you'll get conflicting information and suggestions. It will be for you to discern what advise is best for you.
I'm surprised it was Noteworthy Audio who pushed you to buy the Grado considering the fault you've identified. This suggests the sheilding in the cartridge is poor so the magnetics of the spindle, bearing etc is spoiling your sound and therfore it was a poor recommendation.
You need to be realistic that Rega P2 is very budget stuff. If you want more refinement, your interest in a Thorens 150/125 is very good. Without doubt they are superior and can be cheaply tweaked to bring out the very best they have to offer in terms of performance. I tweaked my old TD150 to a performance standard well beyond a standard Linn LP12. That was acknowledged in an AB test at a Linn dealer, and my brother now uses it very happily. If you go for a Thorens, I'll be happy to talk you through how to make it really sing. It doesn't involve electricity and is all about treating the bearing, sub-chassis, main chassis and plinth. I am also happy to advise on arms etc.
I understand your dislike of the Technics direct drive TT's but we have to be careful here because the most prominent posters (even forum owners) here are total Technics advocates. In fareness, I would suggest that the best option is to move away from belt drive and go to direct or idler drive TT's. Having said that, there is much to learn on the way and if you like Thorens (which are good despite rubber band drive) and they are affordable for you in your present circumstance, go for one. As said, I can help you do what is needed to get the best from them. Certainly you would have no speed issues and you'll get a very presentable sound which should equate to a major upgrade compared with what you are currently using.
Let us know what you want. Help and advise is available according to the direction you take.
Regards,
Greg
Hi Howard,
Welcome to AoS :)
It's probably my loss, but I've never found Technics tables aesthetically pleasing (even the ones linked to at soundhifi don't do a lot for me, I'm afraid). Interesting to note that they'd suit my music tastes, though...
I guess that, given the above, I have to ask the question: what is ultimately more important to you - looks or sound?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking you for considering that you should also like the look of the gear you own as well as wanting it to sound good (why indeed not?), but given the nature of your query it's an important question to ask yourself before going any further.
What I can tell you, and from considerable experience too, is that if you can manage to live with the aesthetics of the Technics then (when suitably modified) it will reward you sonically and musically in a way which either your Rega or the Thorens could only dream of.
Quite simply, a Sound Hi-fi (or otherwise) modified SL-1200/1210 is in a different league entirely from either of the above, and in terms of speed stability, which appears to be your main issue here, it's as rock solid and accurate as a very rock solid and accurate thing! That's what direct-drives do best, and honestly, you will be gob-smacked when you hear what a table like that can do for your favourite tunes.
*However*, sorting out your problem properly boils down to how much money you have to throw at it. I'll tell you now that there's simply no point in going down the Technics route unless you can afford to buy one that's been suitably modified, or at the very least has a Time Step PSU fitted and a decent mat, as in stock form it's average but no great shakes. You could get away with using the existing tonearm, as you're using an MM cartridge (the stock one isn't much use with MCs unless it been fettled), and you might be surprised just how much better it makes your Grado sound than the RB250 you're using it with now ;)
If your budget doesn't stretch to that or you just couldn't live with the Technics, aesthetically, then I'd first of all get your P2 fixed so that it's running properly, then sell it and obtain a TD125 with an SME3009. It's a classsic combination. In my opinion, it's a far better turntable - much more solidly engineered, and with a good PSU and motor. It's Swiss, after all! I've heard good ones outperform some LP12s... Another viable option (since you're not averse to buying vintage), as Greg says, is some of the excellent idler tables, such as Lencos and, of course, the Thorens TD124.
You'll also probably find that the SME on the TD125 (or almost any other table) will 'make better sense' of your Grado, although like Dave (DSJR) suggests, I'd be looking at getting a slightly better cartridge. Forget about MCs completely until you can afford a tonearm that can make the most of them, so stick with MM at the moment, and look at the new range from Nagaoka: http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html
These are truly superb, somewhat undiscovered, gems which punch well above their weight sonically and offer superb sound-per-pound value. Their basic sonic characteristics are that they are very open-sounding and dynamic, but not 'in yer face', like so many modern cartridges are now, with excellent bass and lovely overall musical sound and no hint of listener fatigue whatsoever. One can listen to the music these cartridges make for hours on end and simply be beguiled by their charms.
Anyway, hopefully that should do for now. If you've got any questions, don't hesitate to fire away! :cool:
Marco.
P.S Yes, giving a proper introduction in our Welcome area would be much appreciated :smoking:
hifi_dave
12-11-2009, 23:19
Howard, I have no idea what half a semitone sounds like but any speed discrepancy shouldn't be audible. This is not normal and I would suggest your turntable is faulty and you should have it checked before you make any change.
Howard, I have no idea what half a semitone sounds like but any speed discrepancy shouldn't be audible.
That is one of the most seriously interesting comments I've ever read on a forum such as this and maybe indicates the differences between many of us. If my TT was running so fast as to lift the sound tone by half a semi-tone, I'd know it immediately. I have what is called 'perfect pitch' where by I can identify and pitch any note wanted. If Howard can identify this discrepancy with his TT, he also probably has this natural abiliy which is why he's, amongst other things, discontented. If you can't comprehend it, you probably won't understand. Sorry, not an insult. This is a fact of life. Some can and many can't tune in this way.
As said, I'm sure I can help Howard resolve his issues and start getting the results he wants. I'm not being secretive here. I'm not going to expose a long post on getting the best out of a Thorens before I know there is an interest in achieving that.
Regards,
Greg
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 00:25
That is one of the most seriously interesting comments I've ever read on a forum such as this and maybe indicates the differences between many of us. If my TT was running so fast as to lift the sound tone by half a semi-tone, I'd know it immediately. I have what is called 'perfect pitch' where by I can identify and pitch any note wanted. If Howard can identify this discrepancy with his TT, he also probably has this natural abiliy which is why he's, amongst other things, discontented. If you can't comprehend it, you probably won't understand. Sorry, not an insult. This is a fact of life. Some can and many can't tune in this way.
As said, I'm sure I can help Howard resolve his issues and start getting the results he wants. I'm not being secretive here. I'm not going to expose a long post on getting the best out of a Thorens before I know there is an interest in achieving that.
Regards,
Greg
With respect Greg, being able to describe or name something is not the same as having the ability to hear it.
Welcome Howard!
Hopefully between us all here, we can help you in your plight. You've certainly found a place with an enviable wealth of knowledge to ask the question!
Before we set off on a campaign (is that word a bit strong?) to educate Howard into the realms of what a certain turntable can do, I think it would be pertinant to enquire whether his TT purchase budget is for a once & for all solution - with the accepted opportunity for a few minor changes & a new cartridge every now & then. Or does he see himself buying something that is the first step on a continuing road of improvement and the consequent cost that comes with that?
If it's the latter, then certainly guys, fire off your best Technics broadside. But if Howard just wants the one-off purchase, I think he may be able to do better. And his idea of the Thorens might be not unadjacent to abso-bluddy-lutely spot on.
Quite apart from that Howard, one thing is clear. That is, that your Rega is nadgered! It may be that when repaired, it is all you ever dreamt of in a turntable, but you'll never know, will you, till you sort it? Without that, you can't even sell it for a reasonable price.
Grados may just be the most hum prone cartridges on the planet, but when they're working well, they're not bad at all.
I agree with the notion that another amp might be a good option. With your liking the idea of going the route of secondhand, you can do very, very much better than your Pioneer for very, very little cash.
I didn't want to sound like I was criticising Technics 'tables — far from it — but as incredible as they might be, I just don't think I'd choose one. So yes, I guess the aesthetics are somewhat important to me (again, I'm not trying to slight Technics; my taste in, well, most things is somewhat 'kooky'), and I find the Thorens vintage look very appealing, but it's more important that it sounds good.
I don't think I'll have the money to buy a decent modded Technics. I think I'll have £250-£300 max. I must say that a 125 and cheap tweaks is very appealing. Thanks for the offers of help with the tweaks — if I do end up getting one, I'll be sure to ask for help!
I think that whatever I do, the Grado Black will be on its way out. It's just never been up to scratch.
What's the forum-opinion on the RB250? Another forum (less friendly/helfpul than here) rates it highly, and I was wondering how one would sound on a Thorens/vintage 'table? Or would an SME fit the bill better?
There's a lot of options and ideas running through my head at the minute, but I do still think I'm leaning towards a Thorens.
Hamish: I think that 'post-rock' genre just kind of fizzled out a little by the end of the 90s/early 00s. I was (and still am, really) a big fan of Mogwai and Godspeed, though both of their later works have offered diminishing returns for me. Explosions In The Sky are a more recent band, though to me they sound too much like a 50/50 cross between Mogwai and Godspeed. Might be worth a listen, though. Bands like Rachel's and Labradford were a bit more neo-classical, but also made some very lovely music.
And, no, I don't really listen to that genre much as a whole nowadays either... I guess times and tastes change? I do find there's only so many variations on the 10 minute-long quiet/loud dynamic, though.
(Sorry, that answer's been waaay longer than it needed to be.)
Thanks for all the help so far.
Hi Chris,
Before we set off on a campaign (is that word a bit strong?) to educate Howard into the realms of what a certain turntable can do, I think it would be pertinant to enquire whether his TT purchase budget is for a once & for all solution - with the accepted opportunity for a few minor changes & a new cartridge every now & then. Or does he see himself buying something that is the first step on a continuing road of improvement and the consequent cost that comes with that?
If it's the latter, then certainly guys, fire off your best Technics broadside. But if Howard just wants the one-off purchase, I think he may be able to do better.
Good point; and I agree. However, it's like you say - it all depends how much wonga Howard has to spend on this project and where he wants to go with it.
I would contend that if Howard has enough dosh to buy an SL-1200/1210 fitted with at least a Time Step PSU and a new mat, he could fit his Grado to that and have an every bit as good (I'd say much better in fact!;)) "once and for all solution" than any Thorens turntable, save an idler like a TD124.
The ball's in Howard's court now to let us know his maximum budget and what his intended plans are :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 00:42
Some folks here don't like the Rega arms at all. Some folks recognise them for what they can do at their given price point on the right TT, but I can't say there are many actual owners of 'em here!
Whichever camp you might fall into, I think it's generally accepted that they are a bit of a bag of old spanners when strapped onto a Thorens.
The other family of turntables you might consider is Acoustic Research - still available for fairly low prices (but set to rise, many reckon), solid performers in their own right & capable of far more than many would give them credit for when suitably (and cheaply) modified.
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 00:46
.........I would contend that if Howard has enough dosh to buy an SL-1200/1210 fitted with at least a Time Step PSU and a new mat...........
I know that, me old mucker, but he's not got that kind of cash in his budget! So, unless he wants to commit himself to a long term project and financial commitment, I still hold that the Thorens (or an AR) are the way to go.
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 00:50
Well chaps for all you who love vinyl i take my hat off.
This deck i've just bought sat on my Turntable wall shelf for exactly 5 mins before i boxed it up, all the realisation of why i dumped vinyl in the first place came flooding back..Don't give me the ''you have had a raw deal in the past'' rubbish cos i can honestly say i've owned virtualy every real world turntable/arm over the last 25 years..No way on earth does vinyl sound as good as my non vinyl system.No way.Don't let me put a damper on turntables but it's just my comprehension of it all.But in all reality it's a fettish right? You can't honestly take Vinyl seriously unless you are def, a DJ with a DJ Deck or a muppett that reads too many magazines..
Hi Howard,
I don't think I'll have the money to buy a decent modded Technics. I think I'll have £250-£300 max. I must say that a 125 and cheap tweaks is very appealing. Thanks for the offers of help with the tweaks — if I do end up getting one, I'll be sure to ask for help!
I think that whatever I do, the Grado Black will be on its way out. It's just never been up to scratch.
What's the forum-opinion on the RB250? Another forum (less friendly/helfpul than here) rates it highly, and I was wondering how one would sound on a Thorens/vintage 'table? Or would an SME fit the bill better?
You've answered the question now, so I think we can safely drop the Technics :)
I think you're doing the right thing ditching the Rega and going for the Thorens. It's much more a proper piece of engineering. Personally, I would opt for the TD125 over the 150, as I think it's the better table.
As for the RB250, I'm not a fan. It's an ok tonearm at best, and doesn't do anything particularly 'wrong', but its reputation in my opinion far exceeds its actual sonic capabilities, and is just one of the 'usual suspects' often recommended simply because it's inexpensive and is made by Rega.
SME make far better tonearms, IMO, and a classic like a 3009 would do justice to any decent MM cartridge, or something more up to date like an M2 or 309 would also take a quality MC cartridge. There's also the Jelco SA 250ST, have a look here: http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html
These are far better, IMO, than any Rega tonearm (save perhaps the RB1000) and would also take a nice MC cartridge, when funds permit, whereas an SME 3009 wouldn't. The Jelcos are phenomenally good and represent outstanding value for money.
Failing that, there are numerous classic tonearms you could look at to partner the Thorens, such as Hadcocks and Maywares, etc - all better than a Rega RB250 or 300, IMO. It's up to you how you wish to proceed.
Marco.
Well chaps for all you who love vinyl i take my hat off.
This deck i've just bought sat on my Turntable wall shelf for exactly 5 mins before i boxed it up, all the realisation of why i dumped vinyl in the first place came flooding back..Don't give me the ''you have had a raw deal in the past'' rubbish cos i can honestly say i've owned virtualy every real world turntable/arm over the last 25 years..No way on earth does vinyl sound as good as my non vinyl system.No way.Don't let me put a damper on turntables but it's just my comprehension of it all.But in all reality it's a fettish right? You can't honestly take Vinyl seriously unless you are def, a DJ with a DJ Deck or a muppett that reads too many magazines..
I don't doubt any of that, Andre, in the context of your system and whatever T/T you were using, however it's not necessarily representative of what others are experiencing - certainly not me!
Just enjoy your music on whatever you want to play it on - it doesn't really matter :cool:
Marco.
Marco: Yeah, I guess I'd want as much of a once-and-for-all turntable solution as I can, but the idea of one that's also upgradeable in the future is ideal. Long-term financial commitments are pretty much a no-no.
My next step is to find out how much cold hard cash I'll be getting (I'll know next Friday), and how much of that I'm allowed to play with. I've got a couple of unexciting hifi bits I'm going to put on eBay, so that may bump up the final figure a little.
By the looks of things, eBay prices for vintage equipment seem to be very inflated. Is it best avoided? Are there better alternatives? (Like real brick and mortar places?)
Hi Howard,
Just try Googling around and see what comes up. There are quite a few dealers who sell classic T/Ts, too, and of course there are the classifieds in the hi-fi mags. Hi-fi World is good for classic gear, particularly T/Ts.
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 01:26
Ebay's OK if:
You know what you're doing
You know what you want
You know what you're prepared to pay, and will not waver from that
You're prepared to give the time to wait for the right buy to come along, rather than allowing your money to burn a hole in your pocket
You can be free to bid for items on a weekday (daytime) - this is when the true bargains can be had
You don't mind too much if an item identical to what you just bought sells for £100 less the next day!
Apart from that, it can be great if you're a seller & you pay attention to item 1 on the above list!
Car boot sales and places like Cash Converters are where the real bargains turn up, because folk generally don't know how much vintage hi-fi gear is worth. You'll have to do some leg work though to find bargains such as those.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 01:47
Hamish: I think that 'post-rock' genre just kind of fizzled out a little by the end of the 90s/early 00s. I was (and still am, really) a big fan of Mogwai and Godspeed, though both of their later works have offered diminishing returns for me. Explosions In The Sky are a more recent band, though to me they sound too much like a 50/50 cross between Mogwai and Godspeed. Might be worth a listen, though. Bands like Rachel's and Labradford were a bit more neo-classical, but also made some very lovely music.
And, no, I don't really listen to that genre much as a whole nowadays either... I guess times and tastes change? I do find there's only so many variations on the 10 minute-long quiet/loud dynamic, though.
ha yeah, i know what you mean.. i think i went through the exact same process as you - i like to listen to it once in a while but like you say, after a point its all a much for muchness! back in the days of that sort of thing i was also into a lot of trip hop type stuff - massive atack, portishead.. the usual suspects! i have now moved on to something that i sort of concidor somewhere between the two but more euphoric as aposed to depresive and angsty.. (i have probably just grown up a bit) Anyway, fortet, that i previously mentioned, are very much representative of that end of my taste in music these days.. get your ears round these:
B_POkOLy2rM
M2dPYRhSb4c
HmHzhXrIphs
hope u liked them...(i realy recomend the album 'rounds' its lovely for relaxing to, the only complaint that some people have is the repetative nature of some of it, i find that one of the main things about it i like, it can be very hypnotic...
so anyway, thats about where im up to with electrical music these days, well that and nightmares on wax... but i like them as much now as i did when they introduced me to the genre!
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 01:55
as for explosions.. i have been told almost on repeat by a mate i will love it.. he keeps on forgeting to bring me the cd round and i keep on forgeting to buy any... il get there!
I'll have to check those out in the morning, I'm afraid; I'm at work at the moment (nightshift; great), and and video sites (amongst many others) are blocked. Thanks for the links, though; Four Tet and Nightmares On Wax are both very familiar names, but I can't remember what I've heard by them. I'll be sure to check out the videos tomorrow.
Have you heard much by Arcade Fire? I found them to be quite a natural progression on the epic instrumental template, but with singing and everything.
Explosions In The Sky are obviously good, but as I say, you may find it just a little too familiar...
Hi Hamish,
I love Four Tet! I have all their albums :)
You missed out 'Everything Ecstatic' ;)
Also check out LCD Soundsystem - you guys might like them, too.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 02:16
I'll have to check those out in the morning, I'm afraid; I'm at work at the moment (nightshift; great), and and video sites (amongst many others) are blocked. Thanks for the links, though; Four Tet and Nightmares On Wax are both very familiar names, but I can't remember what I've heard by them. I'll be sure to check out the videos tomorrow.
Have you heard much by Arcade Fire? I found them to be quite a natural progression on the epic instrumental template, but with singing and everything.
Ooooooh now I do like a bit of arcade fire! I know exactly what you mean, that's sorta the oposite direction in terms of genre from the one I have just mentioned, but def as valid! Funeral is a mind blowing album... If a bit sad!
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 02:18
Have you heard any fridge at all marco...
...
I'm going to sleep now, this shall convo should continued in the am, tara for now!
Nope - not listened to any Fridge... Should I? :)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 08:17
Oh yeah, fridge 'happiness' and I think the other one I have is called 'sun' but don't quote me if you like fourtet, you will like fridge (silly name though eh?)
Howard, I have no idea what half a semitone sounds like but any speed discrepancy shouldn't be audible. This is not normal and I would suggest your turntable is faulty and you should have it checked before you make any change.
Dave, i don't want to fall out with you over this, but when compared with numerous CD's playing the same music, the Rega's ALWAYS ran a bit fast up until the fixed motor mod, which seemed to correct this IMO. Not too audible on its own, but even when compared to an LP12 (which could be set perfectly), I found this happened...
The guys at Noteworthy Audio are Rega dealers I think and they're pretty genuine too. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the hum problem didn't exist in their dem setup. Like I said (after much prompting from Roy gandy in his "Sanctimonious period,"), this hum is an additive thing.
P.S. Regarding the comments regarding the techie supporter's club on here, in a recent chat with Marco, I was actually surprised to hear that he actually LIKES the TD125 and rates it highly as a turntable..
DanJennings
13-11-2009, 09:45
I was very into tat sorta thing a few years back, I still love it, but just don't listen to it as much for some reason? Maybe you could recomend me more of that sorta thing? There is a bit of a music sceen in Worcester that still play a lot of that type of thing, or at least a development there of.
I like my fourtet and fridge type stuff more these days, how do you feel about that sort of thing?
Did I get you into Godspeed? I can't remember...
Did I every play you any Silver Mt Zion stuff? or Do Make Say Think?
if not, try it out on my simplify
Well, what I can say, is that my Rega P3 doesn't run faster than it should : I made the test a few weeks ago, on a 5-minute-song during the A/B test there was never an "obvious" deviation, and in the end, there was probably less than 1 second of difference... And I've had this TT for almost 25 years ! (well, ok, the belt is only a year old).
I would agree with (hifi_)Dave : this TT probably needs servicing. Not for the hum (which is probably something else) but at least for the speed problem.
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 09:57
Thing is, very few turntables run absolutely spot on speed and the Rega P2 is no worse than any other and better than many. Over the past 36 years I have sold (literally) thousands of Rega turntables and I can honestly say that I have never had a complaint about speed. It can't be that much of a problem...:scratch:
Hi Dave,
Thing is, very few turntables run absolutely spot on speed...
High-quality direct-drives do precisely *that*. It is their speciality, and you can hear the sonic effect! ;)
I'm sorry, Dave, you know that I mostly agree with you on hi-fi, but the fact is Rega T/Ts are mere toys compared with something that's properly designed and engineered like an SL-1200 or SP10 - or even a TD125! I know that you sell Regas, but I'm afraid I have to be honest :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 10:51
Car boot sales and places like Cash Converters are where the real bargains turn up, because folk generally don't know how much vintage hi-fi gear is worth. You'll have to do some leg work though to find bargains such as those.
Marco.
Too right, 6 years ago a mint pair of Audiomaster LS/35a with cute chrome tube stands £25.00at cash convertors, i even had the cheek to drop em to £20.00..Straight on E-BAY sold to a bidder in Singapore for £385.00..Today your looking at double maybe triple that..Should have sat on em a bit..
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 12:03
Hi Dave,
High-quality direct-drives do precisely *that*. It is their speciality, and you can hear the sonic effect! ;)
I'm sorry, Dave, you know that I mostly agree with you on hi-fi, but the fact is Rega T/Ts are mere toys compared with something that's properly designed and engineered like an SL-1200 or SP10 - or even a TD125! I know that you sell Regas, but I'm afraid I have to be honest :)
Marco.
I also have to be honest, without that you don't survive long in the Hi-Fi business. I never force opinions on customers - I play them the equipment, do comparisons until they're happy and allow them to make a choice. As a dealer, I/we have sold thousands of Rega turntables in just this way and, to my knowledge, no one has ever complained about speed variations. So, in my humble opinion, they can't be that bad.
Other people might have different opinions and that is perfectly fine by me. They might be 'toys' to you but they allow many people to enjoy their music at a reasonable price and they are very reliable and usually, trouble free. If a customer doesn't like the sound of the turntables I stock they are perfectly at liberty to seek out an alternative, I don't force anyone to buy anything.
They might be 'toys' to you but they allow many people to enjoy their music at a reasonable price and they are very reliable and usually, trouble free.
I can't argue with that bit, Dave! :)
I just wish that the UK turntable scene, as it were, was a bit less Linn/Rega/Michell-centric, that's all, and people would think outside of the box a bit more. The thinking is starting to change though, thankfully, as people wake up and smell the coffee and discover how good the likes of a modified SL-1200/1210 is, due in no small part to forums such as this.
The belt-drive-centric mentality is a by-product, I feel, from the days when the above brands were touted as being the 'be-all-and-end-all', whilst some far superior Japanese direct-drive turntables were either ignored through ignorance or rubbished by the blinkered hi-fi hacks of the day.
That's an old story though, so best not go there! ;)
Marco.
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 12:44
I never believed everything I read in the mags, not even when I was writing for them.:scratch:
I've always made up my own mind and allowed my customers to do the same.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-11-2009, 12:51
Did I get you into Godspeed? I can't remember...
Did I every play you any Silver Mt Zion stuff? or Do Make Say Think?
if not, try it out on my simplify
yeah prob... there was a lot of it about back in the day, what with diago garcia and all that stuff benny p was doing .. i was into boards of canada etc before we met i think dan ... so i couldnt tell you?!? good stuff though! have you seen estaban yet or joe phelans band - between us and the fire...? theres quite a bit of pretty decent music in worcester at the mo! that oxjam thing i told you about made more money than anywhere else in the country! that might be good music, but it might also be that worcester people are posh :)
Thing is, very few turntables run absolutely spot on speed and the Rega P2 is no worse than any other and better than many. Over the past 36 years I have sold (literally) thousands of Rega turntables and I can honestly say that I have never had a complaint about speed. It can't be that much of a problem...:scratch:
Dave, you know little old Aspergic me rather (too) well now :D
People like us check these things like it's the most important thing on this Earth and tend to fuss when it's not right.
Listened to in isolation by your average man, 60% at least of whom being tone deaf - fact IIRC - you won't hear it and I wouldn't be troubled by it (it was tested at about 0.3% fast in several Choice reviews in the 80's), but when there's a CD and correctly running alternative turntable around, it's obvious mate...
Remember, I did loads of CD vs LP dems as you may have done, synching the two together and switching between them. The LP12 can be easily set spot-on with *their* strobe (one division fast per three revolutions gives perfect speed when playing on Valhalla and Lingo decks). At the time, it was impossible with Rega's, as they raced away..
I'll find and scan the reviews as "proof."
NAS ROOL!!! - At least Tom used a Micro DQX1000 Quartz-Locked Direct Drive as a reference for speed (saw it in his listening/dem room...)
if you don't like a Techie, save for a Spacedeck - you'll love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dave Cawley
13-11-2009, 13:17
Linn/Rega/Michell-centric
I sell a turntable every week, and don't stock the above! But then I don't make my whole living from Hi Fi (thank goodness).
Regards
Dave
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 13:53
DSJR,
Back in the good old days (from 1973) we had an allocation of 20 Rega TT's per month and 10 extra for December making a total of 250/year. Each and every one was demonstrated as per Rega's instructions and I don't recall anyone, ever saying 'it's running fast'.
We never demonstrated CD versus turntable as you did by synchronising the two, we just played music to customers to allow them to enjoy the musical experience.
My point is that if old style Rega turntables were that bad, we wouldn't have been able to sell them to ordinary folk who listened, enjoyed and bought in their thousands.
I have just flicked through an old mag to get a few figures on speed and came up with the following:
TD160 = + 0.6
TD126 = + 0.6
Michell Focus = +0.25
LP12 = -0.2
Heybrook TT2 = -0.15
Systemdek II = -0.43
I didn't have time to have an extensive look but most TT's had adjustment or were quartz lock. The Rega is worse than those but no worse in real terms than it's peers without adjustment. What can I say, there are things at least as important to the sound as speed which is why Rega turntables have always sold well on a comparative demonstration and the latest Rega TT's are now far more accurate anyway.
Linn/Rega/Michell-centric
I sell a turntable every week, and don't stock the above!
That's 'cos you're not in that particular zone, old chap... T'other Dave is simply supplying the demand (as are you in a different way), and good luck to you both :)
I just wish buyers were better educated in terms of knowing what's available, other than the predictable 'usual suspects', so that 'demand' was different. This would hopefully reflect what Dave stocked, and thus sold to his happy punters ;)
The same also applies to many others dealers; I'm not just singling out (Hi-fi) Dave who, quite frankly along with you, are a credit to the industry.
Marco.
P.S You should promote Puresound more, though! :smoking:
Well, I guess that 20-25 years ago, people were more interested by buying the latest Micromega CDP than a turtable.
Nevertheless, Rega was still making affordable turntables and updating its models. Moreover they were pretty, and easy to integrate in a living room. What could you ask for more ? ;)
:gig:
Like I said, some of "us" i.e. ME!!!!!!! do get rather obsessive about minutae.
An old Rega in isolation is a fine used buy regardless...
Tell you guys summat else - My two direct drives have mains powered illumated neon strobe lamps and the indicated speed appears to drift all over the place on both decks. Checking with the 300Hz Linn strobe and both decks are spot-on...
Not tempted to join the Techie club then, Dimitri?
You're obviously a discerning chap, so it's only a matter of time, I think :eyebrows:
;)
Marco.
OK, I'll cave in kicking and screaming.....:lol:
'Choice gave the Planar 3 at 0.4% fast. The TD147 Thorens was 0.8% fast and the TD166 in the same issue was over 1% fast...............
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 14:26
Marco,
It's always been the way. The magazines go one way and I go another - they promote the big boys and I support the little fella. Not because I'm awkward, it's just that some of the best Hi-Fi comes from the enthusiast manufacturer, usually with little business sense...:scratch:
As for Puresound, it's great gear at good prices and distributed by one of the nicest men I know....:smoking:
Puresound is on my website - a pic and a link.
I plan to change the TT later on, but what I would like would be rather something like this : http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DP70M/DP70M.html
But I will seriously consider any alternative. This is my "discerning" side... :)
OK, I'll cave in kicking and screaming.....:lol:
'Choice gave the Planar 3 at 0.4% fast. The TD147 Thorens was 0.8% fast and the TD166 in the same issue was over 1% fast...............
O.4% fast it means it goes 1 second faster every 250seconds (4'10"). Not that bad, considering I need a new motor and new belt to get to that. ;)
Dave Cawley
13-11-2009, 14:46
DP70M, nice but no quartz lock.
Dave
Dimitri,
There's nothing much wrong with a DP70! :)
The trouble with Denons, and other (perfectly excellent) direct-drive T/Ts, is that they lack the dealer/user 'support network' of the Technics models, mainly because Technics, in terms of the SL-1200/1210, continue to produce the design, and because SP10s are so popular worldwide.
Buying a vintage Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha or Sony D/D deck is absolutely fine if you're just after a one-off 'fit and forget' T/T and have no intention of upgrading or modifying it, (perhaps because you can do it yourself), providing that you can get the necessary parts if something goes 'pop' - but it kind of leaves you on your own a bit, if you see what I mean.
Part of the attraction for me of owning an SL-1210 (or an SP10) is that you have people such as Dave Cawley continually pushing the boundaries of what's possible with the design, and thus as an owner, one has access to a range of superb upgrades which enhance the performance of your turntable further and also give you peace of mind knowing that there's someone there to take care of problems, should any arise.
It's also fun exchanging tips and experiences with other users on forums such as this. With any of the other Jap D/D decks, this simply doesn't happen (although Richard from Vantage can usually service things). I guess that it just depends what's most important to you overall :cool:
Marco.
As for Puresound, it's great gear at good prices and distributed by one of the nicest men I know....:smoking:
Puresound is on my website - a pic and a link.
Yep, I was referring to Dave C, though :)
I'd like to see Dave promote Guy's products as much as Alex's (A.N.T Audio) - both are talented designers and very nice chaps ;)
Marco.
Dimitri,
There's nothing much wrong with a DP70! :)
The trouble with Denons, and other (perfectly excellent) direct-drive T/Ts, is that they lack the dealer/user 'support network' of the Technics models, mainly because Technics, in terms of the SL-1200/1210, continue to produce the design, and because SP10s are so popular worldwide.
Buying a vintage Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha or Sony D/D deck is absolutely fine if you're just after a one-off 'fit and forget' T/T and have no intention of upgrading or modifying it, (perhaps because you can do it yourself), providing that you can get the necessary parts if something goes 'pop' - but it kind of leaves you on your own a bit, if you see what I mean.
Part of the attraction for me of owning an SL-1210 (or an SP10) is that you have people such as Dave Cawley continually pushing the boundaries of what's possible with the design, and thus as an owner, one has access to a range of superb upgrades which enhance the performance of your turntable further and also give you peace of mind knowing that there's someone there to take care of problems, should any arise.
It's also fun exchanging tips and experiences with other users on forums such as this. With any of the other Jap D/D decks, this simply doesn't happen (although Richard from Vantage can usually service things). I guess that it just depends what's most important to you overall :cool:
Marco.
These are certainly very important arguments. And, to be honest, I always prefer buying things from people I know (even very slightly, like Dave) than from a random shop (even a well-known one). I will certainly take all this into account when time comes.
Thank you for the advise. :)
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 16:31
Yep, I was referring to Dave C, though :)
I'd like to see Dave promote Guy's products as much as Alex's (A.N.T Audio) - both are talented designers and very nice chaps ;)
Marco.
Too many Dave's on this forum. Time for a cull and I'm voting for DSJR to go first.....:eyebrows:
I can't argue until I've got me money :lolsign: :wave: :cool:
hifi_dave
13-11-2009, 17:17
Are you talking about my 'Holiday fund' ? :ner:
Dave Cawley
13-11-2009, 17:35
Dave Cawley continually pushing the boundaries of what's possible
And soon the impossible!!!
Dave
I'm surprised it was Noteworthy Audio who pushed you to buy the Grado considering the fault you've identified. This suggests the sheilding in the cartridge is poor so the magnetics of the spindle, bearing etc is spoiling your sound and therfore it was a poor recommendation.
To be fair to Noteworthy Audio, it was me that put forward the idea of the Grado Black, having heard good reviews of it as a budget cartridge. They agreed that it was one of the best for the price, though there was no mention that it could potentially cause hum problems.
When the Grado was fitted, a spacer had to be fitted under the tonearm for it to sit at the right height, and the counterweight had to be replaced for a small one from an RB300 (so it didn't clonk the lid when it was closed), leaving my Rega looking a bit of a hotch-potch, and with work that would need undoing if any other cartridge was to be fitted to it. With this in mind, and that it plays fast (though is it faster than any other P2?), would it be advisable to sell it in pursuit of a Thorens? (I do think that a Thorens is the way I want to go now...)
Now that you bad, bad people have put the idea in my head, I've been thinking about amps too. Has anyone got any recommendations for some that would go nicely with Tannoy M3s?
Thanks again,
Howard
You know what ? I'll sell you my P3+Elys and buy a Technics instead... :D
Amps you say ? You're in the right place for amps. I let the experts express themselves.
You know what ? I'll sell you my P3+Elys and buy a Technics instead... :D
Hah! Such a kind offer!
DP70M, nice but no quartz lock.
I'll second that!
Buying a vintage Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha or Sony D/D deck is absolutely fine if you're just after a one-off 'fit and forget' T/T and have no intention of upgrading or modifying it, (perhaps because you can do it yourself), providing that you can get the necessary parts if something goes 'pop' - but it kind of leaves you on your own a bit, if you see what I mean.
Bollocks!...
There's tons that can be done, you just need to do a little 'homework'! :ner:
What's all this cr@p with spacers on a Rega deck? The arm tube is tapered and many of us (from personal experience) tend to think the arm is down at the back when it isn't. FFS, Rega don't even get the lower face of the "headshell" true, hence Michell machining it true in the Techno-arm...
I did sell a good few Grado's of the current series with Rega's and the arm wasn't low enough at the back to cause any problems - honestly. As long as the centre-line of the arm is roughly level, you wouldn't go wrong IMO.. I don't think the grado Black stylus is *that* fussy, to be honest...
Selling old Rega's is a profitable thing these days, as they seem to fetch twice what I think they should go for (well over a ton for 2's and nearly two hundred for 3's).
Huh, that's interesting. I did wonder about the spacers when they said it'd need it, but not having The Knowledge, I didn't question it.
I think it will go on eBay at some point, then, if I can summon the strength to do it. If I could get £100-odd, that'd be very acceptable.
As for the RB250, I'm not a fan. It's an ok tonearm at best, and doesn't do anything particularly 'wrong', but its reputation in my opinion far exceeds its actual sonic capabilities, and is just one of the 'usual suspects' often recommended simply because it's inexpensive and is made by Rega.
SME make far better tonearms, IMO, and a classic like a 3009 would do justice to any decent MM cartridge, or something more up to date like an M2 or 309 would also take a quality MC cartridge. There's also the Jelco SA 250ST, have a look here: http://www.soundhifi.com/jelco.html
These are far better, IMO, than any Rega tonearm (save perhaps the RB1000) and would also take a nice MC cartridge, when funds permit, whereas an SME 3009 wouldn't. The Jelcos are phenomenally good and represent outstanding value for money.
Failing that, there are numerous classic tonearms you could look at to partner the Thorens, such as Hadcocks and Maywares, etc - all better than a Rega RB250 or 300, IMO. It's up to you how you wish to proceed.
Marco.
Hi Howard,
Sorry, this is going back to post 22 by Marco. In contrast I am a big fan of Rega arms although I readily acknowledge that the basic factory products can sound a bit grey. Having said that they are used by numerous TT manufactures as standard, including Thorens on current products so they really can't be that bad. This is worth thinking hard about because you already have a Rega arm which you could tranfer to a new TT. Furthermore, you could send it away for some 'treatment' which would transform it's performance. I completely recommend upgraded Rega arms, particularly the RB250 (now 251). There are three companies worth considering. Origin Live, Michell and AudioMods. Here are the links.
http://www.originlive.com/
http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/
http://www.audiomods.co.uk/
Look for options to trade in your old arm or alternatively have it converted as AudioMods do. Origin Live used to do this but I don't know if that is current practice now.
I have owned all these conversions and without doubt, the AudioMods option is the best performer which produces a quality sound. On my TT it competes with top end arms such as SME. HFW also reviewed the Michell TecnoArm 'A' similarly and there is a very recent review of the AudioMods on their website. Furthermore, unlike the other modifiers, Jeff Spall of AudioMods introduces alot of new and improved parts including bearings which deal better with VTA, alignment and overall performance. You need to study the websites (particularly Jeffs) well to understand everything that is offered.
What I am saying, considering you have a constrained budget is get your Thorens with or without arm and fit the bog standard Rega to it. When you can afford, get your Rega arm converted. There is definite synergy between Rega and Thorens.
Personally I don't agree with Marco's take on this and I have considerable experience of using Rega's on the various TT's I've had. IMHO, a converted Rega will out perform a SME 2009 by a long way particularly considering modern cartridges be they MM or MC. Furthermore, his suggestion of the Jelco Arm is a non-starter. They are too heavy for the Thorens suspension as a friend of mine has recently found out to his cost. One of the upgrades that can be done on Thorens decks is to replace the suspension springs with Linn springs which are more robust and certainly this is a recommended tweak for the earlier Thorens decks. I don't know at this stage if such an upgrade would allow the Jelco to be used but I doubt it.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Assuming you, regardless of restricted budget are keeping a progressive and upgrade approach to your TT, going for a Thorens first seems to me to be a good idea and good decks can be had relatively cheaply. You can transfer your Rega arm across which will boost performance particularly if the Thorens comes with a factory arm. We can work through some serious but cheap and easy to do tweaking of the chassis and you can get the arm rebuilt to bring further improvement. In the fullness of time, you might want to move onto another TT, but with a tweaked Rega, you'll already have a competent arm to transfer, thus making your progression and upgrading an affordable and easy task.
I hope that helps.
Regards,
Greg
Hi Greg,
We just have different points of view, that's all - yours are every bit as valid as mine :)
One thing though:
There are three companies worth considering. Origin Live, Michell and AudioMods.
You've forgotten about the arm-meister, par excellence: Johnny from Audio Origami...
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/AO_Rewires/AORewires.htm
He tweaks Rega arms in his sleep and is a damn site cheaper than any of the above!
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 22:29
Greg,
There is definite synergy between Rega and Thorens.
I strongly disagree - Howard is looking at older Thorens decks. Every time I've been near an old Thorens with a Rega on it I've thought it sounded wrong. I've heard the standard TD160 sound better than one with a Rega arm many times.
We just have different points of view, that's all - yours are every bit as valid as mine :)
One thing though:
You've forgotten about the arm-meister, par excellence: Johnny from Audio Origami...
http://www.audioorigami.co.uk/AO_Rewires/AORewires.htm
He tweaks Rega arms in his sleep and is a damn site cheaper than any of the above!
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Fine but this is not about two people having different opinions. It's about the difference between an opinion from a person who comes from a position of comprehensive hands on experience and that of another who probably doesn't. In such circumstances it would be criminal for the ignorant to write with authority in a way likely to mislead an innocent (and strapped for cash) inquirer. This is one of the major draw backs of forums. So many contributers are happy to repeat what another person has said when that poster has no actual personal experience of the topic in question. In this case I've spent years working on Rega arms in various levels of refinement on several different TT's. I don't think you have that heritage.
I am well aware of Origami Johnny but did not mention him because he offers no more that a rewire and a cosmetic service whereas the Companies I highlighted actually do some engineering alterations to improve the performance of the arm. In the circumstances there is no surprise he is cheaper! The companies I recommend do more to make a Rega sound better. They are far less concerned with how it looks!
Regards,
Greg
Hi Marco,
Fine but this is not about two people having different opinions. It's about the difference between an opinion from a person who comes from a position of comprehensive hands on experience and that of another who probably doesn't.
Whoa, hold on there Greg. Get right off your high horse!
I started using Rega tonearms when they were first introduced (after the old S-shaped Lustre-designed one), and have owned about seven different types through the years, tweaked and otherwise, from various companies. I may not have as much experience as you overall with Regas, but I've got enough to know what I'm talking about and to form a valid opinion :upyours: ;)
In such circumstances it would be criminal for the ignorant to write with authority in a way likely to mislead an innocent...
FFS, get a grip. Have you been on the shandy tonight? That's a ridiculous remark! :lol:
I am well aware of Origami Johnny but did not mention him because he offers no more that a rewire and a cosmetic service whereas the Companies I highlighted actually do some engineering alterations to improve the performance of the arm. In the circumstances there is no surprise he is cheaper! The companies I recommend do more to make a Rega sound better. They are far less concerned with how it looks!
Well, you obviously are completely ignorant about Johnny's skills and also the services he offers with Regas or any other tonearms!! I know him personally and have seen the sort of engineering equipment he has access to. I have also watched him work on tonearms - the man clearly knows what he's doing and is a perfectionist. Jeezuz, he builds tonearms from scratch of his own. Have you never heard of the PU7? How could he do that if he was just an 'arm polisher and rewirer'??
Personally, if I were having a Rega arm modified, I'd give it to Johnny way before I would Origin Live or Michell (sorry, I don't particularly rate the Tecnoarm, either). As for OL, Mark Baker's stuff is ok but overpriced, IMO. I have no experience of AudioMods, so can't comment on them :)
Marco.
Greg,
I strongly disagree - Howard is looking at older Thorens decks. Every time I've been near an old Thorens with a Rega on it I've thought it sounded wrong. I've heard the standard TD160 sound better than one with a Rega arm many times.
And I strongly disagree with you ;).
Most of my experience is with the older Thorens decks and my original TD150 I bought secondhand in chassis form about 1975 having been tweaked by me and fitted with a Rega arm served me well for many years. At one stage when I was considering a TT upgrade, I A/B compared it to a basic Linn LP12 at the local dealers and all (dealer rather reluctantly) concluded it sounded better. Subsequently it has provided years of service to my parents (now deceased) and thereafter, my brother who presently uses it daily.
There is nowt wrong with a Rega arm on a Thorens deck; even an ancient one. Maybe you've never heard one set up properly. Your experience is completely foreign to me.
It is however all about set up and doing things to get the best out of the deck. If Howard goes down the Thorens road, I'll offer information on cheap and easy to do tweaks which will conciderably convert the performance compared to that of the original. That will include a replinth, but it's no big deal and easily affordable.
Regards,
Greg
The Grand Wazoo
14-11-2009, 00:23
OK, so all the Thorens / Rega decks I've ever heard have been badly set up and everyone else who has concurred with my experience is wrong. But you alone know how to set them up correctly?
Well, that sounds like great news for Howard.
'Scuse me, I'm just off upstairs to chuck our bog standard TD160 out the window - it's obviously worthless.
Hi Greg,
I certainly concur with you that a Rega is not a bad arm at all, especially after modding. My Rega 300 has been modded with Incognito, Michell Technoweight, Origin Live VTA adjuster and Eichmann Bullet plugs. Now it has gone into the boundary of super arm territory, though not quite SME V yet.
Whoa, hold on there Greg. Get right off your high horse!
I started using Rega tonearms when they were first introduced (after the old S-shaped Lustre-designed one), and have owned about seven different types through the years, tweaked and otherwise, from various companies. I may not have as much experience as you overall with Regas, but I've got enough to know what I'm talking about and to form a valid opinion :upyours: ;)
Thanks very much for the offensive imoticom. I see from your other posts you've been on the wine, so maybe that is the reason for the unpleasant nature of your reply.
FFS, get a grip! Have you been on the shandy tonight? That's a ridiculous remark! :lol:
No, but you have!
Well, you obviously are completely ignorant about Johnny's skills and also the services he offers with Regas or any other tonearms!! I know him personally and have seen the sort of engineering equipment he has access to. I have also watched him work on tonearms - the man clearly knows what he's doing and is a perfectionist. Jeezuz, he builds arms from scratch of his own. Have you never heard of the PU7? How could he do that if he was just an 'arm polisher and rewirer'??
I'm not ignorant of what Audio Origami offers. Read the website. Johnny does not offer engineering work on Rega's albeit he may have that capability but it isn't advertised. In contrast, Jeff at AudioMods offers a far more comprehensive service and his prices are reasonable.
Personally, if I were having a Rega arm modified, I'd give it to Johnny way before I would Origin Live or Michell (sorry, I don't rate the Tecnoarm, either). I have no experience of AudioMods, so can't comment on them :)Marco.
That's your choice and perception, but lets get down to the basics and stop messing around. I'll wager you have absolutely no experience of using a Rega arm in a Thorens deck which is what this discussion is about. Howard wants information about that combination. Do you have any personal knowledge and (preferably hands on) experience of such a combination? Don't be tempeted to lie because you'll be found out and let yourself down. Do you have anything constructive to add that will help Howard under these circumstances make a rational judgement on the way forward?
Regardless of insult :), best wishes,
Greg
Hi King,
Much depends though on the partnering cartridge, and what T/T is being used. As with everything - synergy is king (no pun intended, mate! :eyebrows:)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I certainly agree
Thanks very much for the offensive imoticom. I see from your other posts you've been on the wine, so maybe that is the reason for the unpleasant nature of your reply.
Hang on a minute, Greg. Let's press the rewind button...
How exactly am I supposed to react to provocative remarks like this where my valid opinion is being rudely dismissed - try reading it again and tell me it doesn't come across as just a tad condescending:
Fine but this is not about two people having different opinions. It's about the difference between an opinion from a person who comes from a position of comprehensive hands on experience and that of another who probably doesn't.
In such circumstances it would be criminal for the ignorant to write with authority in a way likely to mislead an innocent...
The tone of the above is what prompted my reply. If you don't wish the favour returned, then don't 'insult' me in the first place - simple!! ;)
You do seem to have a knack for winding people up. First Andre, then Neil, then Chris, now me! Who's next, I wonder??
Once we've dealt with this situation, I'll gladly tackle the contents of your last post.
Marco.
Hi Chris,
This thing is all subjective. If you think the Rega and Thorens combo sounds wrong, fine. I simply don't agree.
Furthermore I am concious there is a negative bias towards Rega arms on this forum so I'm not surprised at the hostility directed towards my comments. Unfortunately, none of that hostility has offered one single piece of evidence to justify the dislike for Rega arms. It's all opinion and conjecture.
It would be a great shame if you chucked your TD160 out of the window. I'd happily travel to Lancs to collect :)
Regards,
Greg
Unfortunately, none of that hostility has offered one single piece of evidence to justify the dislike for Rega arms. It's all opinion and conjecture.
You're losing the plot tonight, Greg. Are we a teensy-weensy bit touchy because your tonearm of choice is being criticised? ;)
There had been no "hostilty" from me whatsoever until your rather rude dismissal of my perfectly valid opinion... Pray tell what "evidence" one needs to judge ANY tonearm, not just a Rega, other than the results heard by one's ears?
Of course it's "all opinion" - what else can be offered by users? My opinion on this (and that of other people here) is just as valid as yours, despite what you may think.
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Oh I'm sorry, but I don't think my comments were prevocative but I'll acknowledge they were challenging. Certainly they were not offensive which regretfully your response certainly was. Wriggle as much as you like, you were outwardly offensive which is a very poor example from the chief moderator and owner of AoS. Regardless, my belief remains that you posted authoritively when actually you have absolutely no experience of the topic in question, being Rega arms on Thoren TT's. I think sometimes you need to stop and think before you reply but understand in this case, the wine might have influenced. Once again we seem to be getting back to the same old issues that relate to how this forum is managed. As ever it seems that it is your 'play ground' and anyone who challenges and you don't like it, they are not allowed to continue to 'play'. So be it. If you don't have the metal to accept a reasonable challenge to your personal opinion (probably misconstrued) and want to control posts accordingly, what can I do? I thought things had got better here. Clearly it has not because you only sign up to free speech provided that speech corresponds with what you think. More pertanantly, you can't handle it when you've been challenged on a post you've submitted when in all reality you have expressed an opinion when you have absolutely no personal foundation for the views you have expounded.
You might not have enjoyed the tone of what I wrote but that is your problem for posting in an authoritive manner when you are not coming from a position of knowledge. Although my post was challenging, it was not offensive whilst your reply certainly was which is a very poor exibition from the forum owner and chief moderator. Sorry, wine or no wine, you've let yourself down very badly here.
On refection, like many before, once again, I'm out of here. Unless you remove it, my email is available here and Howard is welcome to contact me if he wants to discuss further his TT developments.
Sometimes Marco, you are so stupid. You measure the credibility of your forum on how many members you have rather than on how many are actually posting over a passage of time. On a daily basis, your contributors are small in number compared to other forums who have lower membership but who seem to have the confidence to contribute. I referred to AoS being your 'play ground'. Did you think I invented that? No, that is commonly how many communicating on the Hi-Fi media think of you and AoS. It's a shame really because it has fantastic potential, but your sense of self importance, the tendancy to present an unbalanced assessment of kit and of course, your apparent need for control seems to spoil many things.
I maintain my view that as an individual, you are a very nice person. I liked you the moment I met you. Your personna here, however is very different and you frequently upset people and spoil things and without doubt you display a need to control. In my former occupation I spent several years dealing with domestic violence. I readily learnt to recognise the controlling behaviour of a perpetrator in this type of crime. Certainly I'm not saying you are such a person, but I do identify within you that kind of need to excersise control.
As I'm off now, I'm just hoping you'll think this through and something better will come of it.
Regards,
Greg
My goodness, you have a rather mangled view of reality, don't you? I'll just ignore most of that, I think, and file it in the bin where it belongs. You don't seem to realise that you're describing yourself to a tee. Quite frankly, your lack of introspection beggars belief.
You might not have enjoyed the tone of what I wrote but that is your problem for posting in an authoritive manner when you are not coming from a position of knowledge.
I'm afraid that it's your patent inability to grasp that your condescending and often rude manner is what gets you frequently into trouble, not just here but elsewhere. Your self-importance obviously knows no bounds. You have a cheek to talk about me!! In your time on this forum you've upset quite a few people, so perhaps you should take a long look in the mirror as to who is responsible for what...
Quite simply, you are in no position to judge whether I'm 'coming from a position of knowledge' or not on this subject, as you have no idea what my experience is. However, you're very good at surmising and making incorrect assumptions.
Your comments weren't "challenging", Greg, they were blatantly rude and disrespectful (which incidentally is not the first time you've been guilty of this towards people), probably due to the fact that you were upset because I was criticising the tonearm you use - so you thought that you'd take it out on me, and then got stroppy because you received a taste of your own medicine. That is the reality. The fact that you can't see this says a lot about you.
Anyway, if you're going off in a strop (yet) again, I wish you well. I'll pick your toys up off the floor and put them back in the pram for you ;)
Marco.
P.S My apologies go to Howard for this unfortunate 'contretemps'. Normal service will be resumed shortly :)
Well, this is uncomfortable. I'm sorry to have inadvertently opened a hornets' nest.
Don't worry about it, Howard - it's not your fault :)
These things happen from time to time. I'm off to bed now so we can continue the discussion tomorrow.
I'd like to know what your current thinking is on the turntable/tonearm situation, so that we can offer any further advice necessary.
Greg obviously feels, and with apparently considerable experience, that Thorens T/Ts and Rega tonearms are a match made in heaven, so despite my disagreeing with him on some matters, this is something you should definitely consider along with other options mentioned.
Anyway, it's long past my bed time! Catch you later :goodnight:
Marco.
As I might have mentioned before, I have very limited hifi know-how, and have no idea whose argument was 'right' here, and I'm far too new here to be in a position to take sides.
However, I did appreciate Greg's continued offers of assistance, and I have sent him a PM to take him up on that offer (or, at least, I think I did. I didn't get a 'message sent' confirmation...). That doesn't mean that I've not appreciated everyone's contributions to this thread (I really have), nor that I won't appreciate everyone's continued contributions to it — I hope that it can continue to be a useful pool of information from which I can make the best informed decisions.
I hope Greg and Marco can settle their differences. There's obviously a lot of knowledge, and a lot of passion here, and it'd be a shame for some of that to be lost.
And after all, it's only a tonearm. And a cheap one at that.
I still don't get it why would someone put £200 on a RB200 or RB250 upgrade when you can have a P3+P300 for roughly the same price. Anyway...
Dave Cawley
14-11-2009, 09:50
Hi Howard
To answer your first question, a TD 125 with a SME 3009 and maybe at AT440MLa would sound very nice providing the motor control electronics worked properly.
I'm not going to read the 10+ pages, so I'll ask, what is your music style, your budget and your aspirations?
Regards
Dave
May I try to pour belated oil on turbulent waters?
I set up hundreds of TD160's during the late seventies and the Hadcock was a popular and pretty good sounding choice IMO. Although KJ (W1 branch) weren't Rega dealers, we were able to buy R200 arms from them and I set a good few of those up too.
The R200/TD160 with MDF (?) armboard was a good match IMO, but on the rare occasions we traded in a Planar 2 or 3 against an LP12, the Planars usually brought something to the party that the Thorens 160 couldn't quite manage - a "musicality" and "stability." Blame my setting-up skills if you like, I don't mind, but I did work hard on them at the time to get the best out of them and even wrote an article for HiFi Answers on TD160 setup which was well received at the time..
The RB Rega arms have a different and far more rigid termination at the arm-board, putting far more energy into the turntable and depending on the arm-board used, may be part of the "problem" with using RB arms on a TD160. Linn suggested to Syrinx that partly decoupling the horizontal bearings was beneficial (Scott S told us the arm sounded better that way), but both Rega and SME (in their better arms) go for a totally solid approach as far as I'm aware.
The Rega RB arms are *potentially* spectacular if matched to a suitable turntable that can handle this "direct" transmission of energy. Avondale Audio used to fit an internal long-bolt to clamp the headshell area to the bearing end of the beam and this apparantly removed the one severe resonant spike this arm suffers from at 1.3KHz or so. The bearings Rega use are first class in all variants and apart from the mounting issue, I can't think of any negatives, except that the lack of resonances can make some old cartridges sound bland because the arm isn't *singing* along with the music in the treble as many Ittoks can, for example....
That's my take on it. if you like the SME V, you should find much to admire in a Rega RB arm as there are definitely similarities in presentation. I don't mean to shamelessly plug Nottingham Analogue decks yet again, but the Spacedeck has a collet that takes a 250/300 pillar and gives height adjustment too. This combination sounds great and used to be a lot cheaper than adding one of Toms arms, although Rega prices have crept up alarmingly in recent years it seems..
Apologies for the lecture/epistle, but I just wanted to add my pragmatic ten penworth to the little spat earlier...
The Grand Wazoo
14-11-2009, 11:04
Howard,
If you haven't done so yet, you should get yourself off to:
http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm
There's plenty to read there about the classic Thorens decks.
Hi Dave,
That was an excellent and informative post, which I'm sure Howard will find useful.
I'm afraid that all I can do is comment from my experience. I've owned RB250s and 300s over many years in various guises, on different T/Ts, used with numerous cartridges, and although they sounded different in each application, to my ears, all still had an inherent 'matter-of-fact' way of presenting music which I just didn't get on with.
I don't hate Rega tonearms - far from it; I just think that there are better ones available for a similar amount of money, especially considering the cost of some of the aftermarket versions. What was I supposed to do - keep quiet for fear of 'upsetting' Greg when Howard asked me my (perfectly valid) opinion? That's a rhetorical question, incidentally, and not aimed at you :)
He was rather rude and 'touchy' to say the least when his (seemingly) favourite tonearm was merely being fairly and (constructively) criticised. Tough - I'm afraid that's life. If he can't hack it and remain polite then he shouldn't participate in forums such as this.
Anyway, let's move on. Greg hasn't been banned, so he's free to return to the discussion anytime he wishes.
Marco.
I like this suggestion best. :)
DP70M, nice but no quartz lock.
Dave
But then I would, being a Denon DP user... :eyebrows:
I like the TD125, but isn't it going to be a bit of a struggle to get one, and an arm, for the £250-£300 budget that was mentioned?
Hi Howard, i'm with Chris and Mike on this one
I have a Thorens TD125 mk2 complete with SME 3009 which is fitted with a Grado Gold cartridge and can recommned it, i also have a AR fitted with a Linn basic arm and Linn cartridge this is also a fine turntable and probably easier to set up , Having a SME arm with detachable head shell also gives you the chance to swap catridge and head shell combinations without having to mess about to much, there are numurous different head sheels that fit the SME.
The AR deck will probably be cheaper to buy as 3009 arms are starting to fetch good money and we won't even think about the price of a 3012:mental:
but both decks can be found for around the £250 mark if you keep looking
Hope this is of help
Dave Cawley
14-11-2009, 14:37
Guys, we really need Howard to answer my question #92 above? Otherwise we are just talking amongst ourselves and not with the man that asked for help?
Regards
Dave
Sorry for the lack of replies.
As Alex UK described it on my 'hello' thread, my taste in music is of the sort that would appear on a John Peel Festive 50.
My budget is small — probably not much more than £250-odd.
I don't think I'm entirely sure what my aspirations are. I'm a bit tired of my current Rega, and like the look (and reputation) of Thorens, particularly the TD 125. I'd like a good sounding system, though not necessarily bothered about it being the most 'accurate'.
Where budget allows, I'd like to be able to do some simple modifications if it'd allow me to improve the sound.
I'm still unsure whether to keep the Rega and use its arm for a new 'table, or sell it to put towards my budget.
Mike Homar: I've been looking on eBay, and recent listings have been finishing at around £250 for TD 125s with SME arms (e.g., here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280417915664&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT); here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360203172239&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)).
What you (and I) *really need* is one of these... NAS Deco
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Deco_1000.jpg
But as the price is probably more than twenty times your budget, I'll take Mr Cawley's advice :)
Yes, the RB series arms are "matter-of-fact," but so can the original recordings be - and this is where some audio-artistic-licence comes in I suppose... match with a neutral to lively sounding cartridge helps no end and the AT440MLa (Dave Cawley is selling these at a much better price now the pound has strengthened a little) should be perfect for not much money.
The AR Legend deck was a superb turntable once the bearing was sorted a couple of years after introduction. The earliest ones had bearing-wobble left over from the XB77 disaster and gthe sound wasn't as coherent as a Planar 2 IMO. Once sorted, this deck became a bright and breezy sounding machine with a lovely sense of "air" to it. Totally the opposite to an LP12 of the period, but no less communicative. the lighter platter arrangement minimising W&F and "slowing-under-load" didn't seem a problem.
http://www.vinylnirvana.com/ar_models_etl1.shtml
Things are confused with UK sold AR models. Although the EB-101 was standard, the later "Legend" style deck sold here could well be the ETL-1 for all I know, as much play was made of the far better bearing it had and the Rega arms were a great match..
Mike Homar: I've been looking on eBay, and recent listings have been finishing at around £250 for TD 125s with SME arms (e.g., here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280417915664&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT); here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360203172239&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT)).
That's not so bad then. :)
Hi Dave,
Yes, the RB series arms are "matter-of-fact," but so can the original recordings be - and this is where some audio-artistic-licence comes in I suppose... match with a neutral to lively sounding cartridge helps no end and the AT440MLa (Dave Cawley is selling these at a much better price now the pound has strengthened a little) should be perfect for not much money...
I'm glad you agree about the matter-of-fact thing. It's something I feel which is inherent in the 'genes' of the RB series, no matter how much one fiddles with the design. Some people easily pick up on this - others don't, or if they do, it doesn't bother them.
Regarding what you've written above, each to their own I guess (and I agree with your view), but given that what you say is the case, you can perhaps see what I don't like about the RB series. I love the sound of the Jelco SA-750/DL-103SA combo, which is a mile apart from what you'd get with an RB250 or 300 and an Audio Technica! ;)
I loved the old S-shaped (Lustre-derived) Rega arm... In my opinion, it was a superior product compared to the RB series - certainly with the type of cartridges I'd entertain. But then we've been brainwashed in this country into thinking that S-shaped arms with detachable headshells are the spawn of Satan... Thank goodness that's starting to change now with the introduction of the Jelco SA750 and the rebirth of the 'retro' SME M2-12R, née 3012.
Anyway, I'm glad that Howard seems to be 'zooming in' now on what he's looking for. If he can land a nice TD125 (with de rigueur SME 3009), and sort out his cartridge situation (I'd definitely recommend one of the superb Nagaokas), then I'm sure he'll be more than happy with the end result :cool:
Marco.
P.S That NAS is brutal and pig-ugly, but no doubt it sounds great!
Rare Bird
14-11-2009, 23:44
Three sucessfull Arm matches for the Thorens were: Mayware, Hadcock & Original Mission '774..ATR used to import jazzy TD160B MkII deck sfited with Hadcock
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/ATR.jpg
While looking through Vinyl Engine for a pic of the ATR, i came across a pic of the Thorens plinths i used to make to order, here's one pictured below with my old TD160/Mission 774 i just temp fitted in a Chestnut surround i made see if it fitted perfectly..
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Plinth.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/Surround.jpg
Here it is drying (The blocks inside were just to stand it off the box while the finish dried..These were the buget ones out of 25mm MDF Veneered (Notice the grain travels perfectly from front over the top) ;)
Nice work and pictures, Andre. You really are a perfectionist, mate, when it comes to building things! :respect:
Arthur (of Funk) told me that, too ;)
I agree with your observations, although I also think that the SME 3009, which was pretty much standard with TD125s, was also a successful match.
What's your view of using an RB250 or 300 with one?
Marco.
Hi,
I wonder why nobody suggested the Project turntables for Howard yet. Perhaps the Projects are something he likes. Could upgrade it with a Project Speedbox and phono preamp.
Not that I am a fan of Project tables (had the first one about 1992 as they entered the market) but they surely can be an alternative.
Cheers
Joerg
Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 11:47
Nice work and pictures, Andre. You really are a perfectionist, mate, when it comes to building things! :respect:
Arthur (of Funk) told me that, too ;)
I agree with your observations, although I also think that the SME 3009, which was pretty much standard with TD125s, was also a successful match.
What's your view of using an RB250 or 300 with one?
Marco.
Marco
I was thinking about making those again but just the Solid hardwood ones.
I hate Rega arms with a passion, not an arm i'd dream of putting on a Thorens although Thorens did have 'RB250's badged for em..Aye be plenty TD125/126 spinners with SME 3009, best arm available back then really..
I hate Rega arms with a passion, not an arm i'd dream of putting on a Thorens although Thorens did have 'RB250's badged for em..
Interesting and also noteworthy, I feel!
Marco.
P.S You could make me a nice plinth for my (forthcoming) SP10 ;)
Those TD160 plinths look stunning Andre. Veneered MDF or not, I'd be happy with one and the re-inforcements seem to correct the main weaknesses of the original plinth, which the 160 Super cured to a degree.
Marco, I love the R200 too - it's so musical and "flowing" in sound.
The Pro-Ject 2 was a great deck and judged better than the RB300 equipeed Planar 3 IIRC, at least until the fixed-motor P3-2000 model arrived. If you sold Rega, you rarely did Pro-Ject as well, although the growing market for cheap turntables may have changed things a bit. (The used costs of Rega decks these days must tell us something...)
Marco, I love the R200 too - it's so musical and "flowing" in sound.
So do I, Dave, and the Jelco 750 is exactly the same in that respect...
*That* is precisely the type of sound I like, along with lyrical, rhythmic and expansive; precisely, to my ears, what the RB250 and 300 aren't. They're rather bland and 'hi-fi' sounding, IMO, and that includes the 'posh' aftermarket versions, too - in fact, in some cases even more so!
But, as they say, each to his or her own :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
15-11-2009, 16:35
Well I did (do) Project and IMO they aren't as good as a Rega pound for pound in terms of sound and build quality. They just didn't sell in a comparative demo.
But if there's no Rega there for comparison, they sell and sell and sell and selllllllllllll........
The prices of Pro-Ject seem to have shot up in recent times, and I think they're now aiming higher up market and leaving the P1, 2 and 3 alone. Even the latest Debut seems to be around £200 now, although that could come with a version of the phono box.
You're lucky Dave, as you seem to get on well with the Rega people, as I did for a good few years. they did go through a smug, self satisfied period though in the nineties, as you well know
Marco, I wonder if the current three screw fixing may make more sense to a wooden composite board, as the plastic (?) fixing of the 251 and 301 may allow some slight flexure here. Obviously, with metal plates, the nuts and bolts used will clamp the arms up tight...
Well I did (do) Project and IMO they aren't as good as a Rega pound for pound in terms of sound and build quality. They just didn't sell in a comparative demo.
Also, I have a cheap pro-ject phono stage which sounds awful... I'm still trying to find someone I hate enough to give it to him as a gift. ;)
Project was hyped over here. I know that now :)
Cheers
Joerg
There have been lots of very informative posts whilst I've been away; DSJR's easy-to-understand explanation of why an RB250 might not suit a TD 125 has sold me on getting something else. There are plenty of testimonies here that an SME arm would suit, and for simplicity's sake (in terms of finding them for sale already mounted on 125s) that seems like a good option.
My next mission is to actually find one of the things. I'll keep a close eye on eBay, but I can imagine prices there will be shooting up in the run-up to Christmas. I'd better go and make friends with the people in Cash Converters too...
Andre: those are awesome pictures, those plinths look really nice. Is a TD 160 another option worth considering? Is there much difference performance-wise between the TD125 and TD 160 (or, indeed, any of the other older Thorens decks)?
hifi_dave
15-11-2009, 20:18
But if there's no Rega there for comparison, they sell and sell and sell and selllllllllllll........
...
Marketing, marketing and marketinnnnnnnng.
Rega have never advertised, not ever and so they don't get the press they deserve. Other companies take out lots of advertsing and arrange trips to exotic places for the press boys, so who gets the good publicity ???.:scratch:
The Vinyl Adventure
15-11-2009, 20:43
howard
i breifly had a td160 before i got my 1210. it was completely standard and was actually not too bad. it was really easy to tinker with too, and built up my confidence no end when it comes to tinkering. i know a guy who has one with a sme arm on it and helped him set it up not so long ago... it was ok! nothing to get to exited about but not terible.. of course i dont really have that much experience in this area but that is my 2c for what its worth!
That's a fairly accurate summary, Hamish, and why I consider the TD125 to be the better turntable - and, IMO, by a significant margin.
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
15-11-2009, 21:11
howard, im not sure if anyone has pointed this site out to you.. but it v interestng if your looking at thorens
http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_gallery.htm
Great link! This must be the nicest (cleanest) looking TD125 I've ever seen:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8862/thorenstd125.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/thorenstd125.jpg/)
Love the polished 'mirror finish' platter :)
Now is there any comparison whatsoever between that beautiful piece of engineering and *any* Rega or Pro-ject nonsense? :eyebrows:
Marco.
The best Thorens, IMO: TD124 II:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6109/td124ii.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/td124ii.jpg/)
What muppet put an SPU on a 3009, though? :mental:
Marco.
Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 22:52
Get yourself a TD125LB' you can have your 12" er & SPU if you wish to fit one.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/LIVING-SIN/125LB.jpg
Now that's an absolutely gorgeous looking T/T & arm combo! :eek:
:interesting:
Marco.
Stratmangler
15-11-2009, 23:24
Get yourself a TD125LB' you can have your 12" er & SPU if you wish to fit one.
Something that's always running around the back of my head with the LB version of the TD125 is just how much extra tension does the extended armboard put the suspension springs under ? Is the top plate the same as the standard TD125 ? Is the bulk of the armboard just hanging in space ?
Chris:)
Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 23:36
Something that's always running around the back of my head with the LB version of the TD125 is just how much extra tension does the extended armboard put the suspension springs under ? Is the top plate the same as the standard TD125 ? Is the bulk of the armboard just hanging in space ?
Chris:)
Yes that LB armboard just bolts on in exactly the same pattern as the standard 125, the bulk just hangs over, it's actually not that much..Causes the suspension no problems at all..Try find yourself a TD226' then youll start to worry
;)
Stratmangler
16-11-2009, 00:37
Just googled TD226, and my thoughts are along the lines of Ohmygodthisthing'sbalancedonthreespringswhichproba blydon'tlikeitverymuch !
Chris;)
The best Thorens, IMO: TD124 II:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6109/td124ii.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/td124ii.jpg/)
What muppet put an SPU on a 3009, though? :mental:
Marco.
Why not fit a 12" SME to use with the SPU? This seems to be the arm of choice for many SPU users.
Regards
What muppet uses an SPU and values their records these days????? :lol:
Rare Bird
16-11-2009, 22:54
What muppet uses an SPU and values their records these days????? :lol:
That were i got my old user name 'Vinylgrinder' from
:lol:
What muppet uses an SPU and values their records these days????? :lol:
A lot of Japanese by all accounts! Ortofon continued production of the SPU primarily for the Japanese market.
Regards
I don't mind having one of these which will do me nicely.
The Thorens Reference
http://i45.tinypic.com/2nun5zq.jpg
Are you now the King of bling? :lolsign:
;)
Marco.
I bet it costs more than ten times the industrial machinery it's based on :gig:
I bet it sounds fab, though... Apart from the bling factor, which is over the top and unnecessary, there's some serious engineering going on there!
Can you imagine how much it weighs, too? :eek:
Marco.
Rare Bird
19-11-2009, 11:22
Why is it green?
:confused:
hifi_dave
19-11-2009, 11:35
To save the Planet.....:doh:
Looks more like military green to me... :(
Rare Bird
19-11-2009, 15:35
I've seen White ones & gunmetal ones but nor green!
I would call it Lathe Green - reminds me of metalwork lessons when I were a lad...
Anyway, back on topic, and as mentioned in post #106 by Tolstoi, I would happily recommend a Pro-Ject turntable as an alternative - especially as a current owner of a RPM 4 which is a cracking little deck - OK, it's not going to beat my 401 (even in its dishevelled state...) but very musical, and especially with the new acrylic mat to tighten up the MDF platter, surprisingly strong in the low/mids. Being a bit of a tart, I like how the Pro-Jects look a bit different from the rectangle Rega (etc.) - the current Genie looks lovely, IMHO, (especially in "Homar Red" :lol:) and under £200 new...
http://www.ekran-avc.hr/images/Project_RPM-1_crveni.jpg
http://www.project-audio.com/main.php?prod=rpm1&cat=turntables&lang=en#
Aren't S-shaped arms much more slinky and sexy looking than big, rigid, pointy-outy ones?
Which reminds me............ :eyebrows:
Marco.
That arm has a very magor flaw IMO. The tube is "S" shaped - fine - but look at the relative angle of the horizontal bearings. From my understanding, the yaw of the headshell on warps must be quite severe..............
Rare Bird
20-11-2009, 13:44
Aren't S-shaped arms much more slinky and sexy looking than big, rigid, pointy-outy ones?
Which reminds me............ :eyebrows:
Marco.
You know what the laughable thing about hi-fi..Going around in circles.
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