View Full Version : Passive pre-amps ??
rigger67
30-04-2016, 12:40
I currently use a NAD pre-amp in my system and am wondering whether I'd get a better sound from a passive pre-amp with a phono stage attached.
I don't know much about passives - aren't they supposed to be completely flat ?
Surely that's a good thing, isn't it ?
I would need one with three inputs - one for my DAC, one for my DAB tuner and the other for the turntable.
Current system :
Linn Sondek LP12, Ittok, P77
NAD 1000 pre-amp
2 x Meridian 205 monoblock power amps
Sony CDP-XE520 CD Player
SMSL Sanskrit DAC
Teac T-R650 DAB tuner
Proac Tablette II speakers
I'd be looking to sell the NAD if I did go down this route and would have a budget around £200-300 I guess.
Any advice please ?
Arkless Electronics
30-04-2016, 13:40
Yes it would be a big improvement and with no down side to it. You will shortly have other replies saying this is wrong and passives "suck the life out of the music"... I 100% disagree with this! A debate will then ensue which will leave you more confused than when you started....
What Jez says :)
I'd ask him to knock you one up for the budget. Or alternatively I'd recommend the NVA P50 (even though I'm on their blacklist ;) ) on 30 day trial, don't like it then just send it back.
Whatever, providing there is no issue matching to your power amps I think you will get a fair improvement.
No, GOOD passives (in the right system) most certainly do not suck the life out of the music.
Paul, you may find this thread a useful read: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?44140-Advice-please-Passive-pre
Marco.
rigger67
30-04-2016, 14:26
Fantastic.
Thanks for the advice (and humour !) :D
Arkless Electronics
30-04-2016, 14:36
What Jez says :)
I'd ask him to knock you one up for the budget. Or alternatively I'd recommend the NVA P50 (even though I'm on their blacklist ;) ) on 30 day trial, don't like it then just send it back.
Whatever, providing there is no issue matching to your power amps I think you will get a fair improvement.
I don't make passive pre's Martin but thanks for the recommendation :) I would go for a khozmo one myself.... I do of course make phono stages though!
Haselsh1
30-04-2016, 15:05
Look Man, I currently use a USA made Samson Servo 600 power amplifier that has left/right gain controls and I decided to use that with my Croft Micro 25 Basic. Result...? Bloody awful. Gain controls set to max, volume controlled by the Croft. Bloody awful. Yes I know that the Croft is not passive but in my eyes it proves a point. Match the bugger very caerphilly.
;)
Floyddroid
30-04-2016, 15:15
I feel a bit like Harry Hill here as i don't have the technical expertise to comment in an informed manner. However, i have heard numerous passive pre-amps the best being the Long Dog Audio designed units and enjoyed the natural timbre of acoustic instruments and voice. However, the Spinal Tap in me has me returning to the authority of active fully leaded pre-amps. Horses for courses methinks. I often wonder why many of the best passive pre amps are so expensive though? One less thing to plug into the mains can's be a bad thing tough.
Floyddroid
30-04-2016, 15:17
Does this go for all Welch amplifiers like?
Look Man, I currently use a USA made Samson Servo 600 power amplifier that has left/right gain controls and I decided to use that with my Croft Micro 25 Basic. Result...? Bloody awful. Gain controls set to max, volume controlled by the Croft. Bloody awful. Yes I know that the Croft is not passive but in my eyes it proves a point. Match the bugger very caerphilly.
;)
mad-moon
30-04-2016, 15:56
sounds a bit cheesey to me...
Haselsh1
30-04-2016, 16:03
Totally white and totally crumbly. Goes really well with Amerone.
Floyddroid
30-04-2016, 16:19
Totally white and totally crumbly. Goes really well with Amerone.
I'll try it.
It is a passive cheese, though. Not active like a stilton.
Totally white and totally crumbly. Goes really well with Amerone.
Amarone! :spank:
;)
Marco.
walpurgis
30-04-2016, 16:38
It is a passive cheese, though. Not active like a stilton.
Consumption requires a balanced input though.
pgarrish
30-04-2016, 19:47
I currently use a NAD pre-amp in my system and am wondering whether I'd get a better sound from a passive pre-amp with a phono stage attached.
I don't know much about passives - aren't they supposed to be completely flat ?
Surely that's a good thing, isn't it ?
I would need one with three inputs - one for my DAC, one for my DAB tuner and the other for the turntable.
Current system :
Linn Sondek LP12, Ittok, P77
NAD 1000 pre-amp
2 x Meridian 205 monoblock power amps
Sony CDP-XE520 CD Player
SMSL Sanskrit DAC
Teac T-R650 DAB tuner
Proac Tablette II speakers
I'd be looking to sell the NAD if I did go down this route and would have a budget around £200-300 I guess.
Any advice please ?
Borrow one to try. Use short ICs. Not sure how sensitive your Meridians are - they may need more oomph than a passive can provide (TVC passives are different and may work better - or not..). Id be surprised if even a basic Alps Blue passive didnt improve on your Nad though, and a decent stepped attenuator should be a huge improvement.
Well, the Alps Blue in a box has convinced me...have a Khozmo stepped attenuator with z foils on order...
Yes it would be a big improvement and with no down side to it. You will shortly have other replies saying this is wrong and passives "suck the life out of the music"... I 100% disagree with this! A debate will then ensue which will leave you more confused than when you started....
And here we go again... :P
I've used multiple passives, they're just not as good in my system.
The only answer is this: listen for yourself, and make your own mind up.
Have to say,
heard a few now and some in direct comparison to my active pre, and I wouldn't want to change to a passive.
Feel that they do strip a little of the boogie out of the music.
Starting from scratch though they give great bang for buck, particularly Ali Taits Slagle, which to me sounded the best for not a lot of outlay.
Firebottle
24-05-2016, 10:55
Look Man, I currently use a USA made Samson Servo 600 power amplifier that has left/right gain controls and I decided to use that with my Croft Micro 25 Basic. Result...? Bloody awful. Gain controls set to max, volume controlled by the Croft. Bloody awful. Yes I know that the Croft is not passive but in my eyes it proves a point. Match the bugger very caerphilly.
;)
The input impedance of the Samson is too low for the Croft output. If the impedance was a lot higher it would probably sound great.
Virtual-Symmetry
24-05-2016, 12:54
I always use Sfernice 'PII VYN' Metal Film Linear Pots with Vishay Bulk Metal Foils LFR's for Volume control
Arkless Electronics
24-05-2016, 15:25
And here we go again... :P
I've used multiple passives, they're just not as good in my system.
The only answer is this: listen for yourself, and make your own mind up.
Each to their own but I stopped using active pres years ago and have zero interest in going back.... and I can of course design and build for myself any active pre I like of as "high end" as I want for just the cost of my own time.... but I don't as I'm 100% happy with a passive. To my ears there is no loss of "boogie" or dynamics whatsoever (nor is it technically possible for there to be BTW). My theory is that many active pres add a bit of colouration which gives some extra "heft" that wasn't on the recording and this helps to fill out the sound when at less than realistic volumes...... Use yer ears and decide at the end of the day folks...
My theory is that many active pres add a bit of colouration which gives some extra "heft" that wasn't on the recording and this helps to fill out the sound when at less than realistic volumes...... ...
This ^
There's only one thing an active pre can add and that is a little bit of noise and distortion. Since low output tape decks and tuners disappeared there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever.
Arkless Electronics
24-05-2016, 15:42
This ^
There's only one thing an active pre can add and that is a little bit of noise and distortion. Since low output tape decks and tuners disappeared there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever.
+1
Each to their own but I stopped using active pres years ago and have zero interest in going back.... and I can of course design and build for myself any active pre I like of as "high end" as I want for just the cost of my own time.... but I don't as I'm 100% happy with a passive. To my ears there is no loss of "boogie" or dynamics whatsoever (nor is it technically possible for there to be BTW). My theory is that many active pres add a bit of colouration which gives some extra "heft" that wasn't on the recording and this helps to fill out the sound when at less than realistic volumes...... Use yer ears and decide at the end of the day folks...
I have. :D
I replaced a Bespoke Tube pre of Long (12yrs) service, with a cheap 10$ :eyebrows: Ebay Dact imitation, teeny smd resistors and all... 10k stepped attenuator
Measured tracking error ..curiosity :-) was/is 0.3 ! ohms (not k's either). Fairly impressive for Ebay junque.. I thought.
17017
A wee 1$ store wooden cube box a couple of pairs of RCA's and a nice big Ali knob from an obsoleted preamp from the 70's
Sound was/is a whole level clearer /more precise.
No loss of dynamics whatsoever.. arguably More actually
The other day I reinserted the Tube gizmo as experiment. Sounded like a towel over the speakers.
There's No going back to it.
We really do acclimatize quickly.
Virtual-Symmetry
24-05-2016, 18:34
The pot quality should have a marked effect on the overall sound. I don't use logs as they are not accurate at low level listening imho.
If you need an active preamp then look at your source, it's not well designed. Bear in mind most integrated amps are a power amp with a passive pre in close proximity. If your source can't drive a 1m interconnect between passive pre and power amp then get a shorter cable or a decent source.
This ^
There's only one thing an active pre can add and that is a little bit of noise and distortion. Since low output tape decks and tuners disappeared there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever.
I agree with the essence of your post, but not with it in its entirety. You've heard my modded Croft preamp, and so I think you'll agree that the reason it sounds so good is not because it's adding distortion, but precisely the opposite. The BEST active preamps allow systems to 'breathe' in a way that isn't always possible with a passive design. That's certainly what my ears and experience tell me.
And once again that was demonstrated at NEBO, or rather I should say the system-dependent nature of passives was...
On Saturday, when I substituted your NVA for the Goldpoint, as ever the sound was different, but not necessarily better, which again for me is what happened when Ali dropped in the Slagle. It still sounded great, but to my ears not as good as it did in the system used at the last NEBO; nor indeed did the Goldpoint sound anywhere near as good on Saturday, as it does here at home.
As such, it remains as one of the few components I own, unlike the Croft, which I can take to bake-offs, put into other systems, and where the results will be utterly unpredictable. To an extent that's disappointing, as it makes it difficult to demonstrate to others what I'm hearing with it in my own system, but then how it sounds there is ultimately to me what matters most.
The lesson here for me is that the best active preamps will enhance the performance of most systems, but the best passives, whilst undoubtedly capable of top-notch results, are incapable of the same degree of consistency. That's because their efficacy is ultimately governed by the weakest link in the partnering system, whether that be interconnect cable length, lack of 'drive' from the source component, or a lack of sensitivity from the partnering power amp - or a combination of all three!
Therefore, that's why I've concluded that no passive preamp is a 'one size fits all', and furthermore, it is impossible to say that a passive or active design is universally best.
Marco.
I have. :D
Indeed, although next time I'm in Glasgow it would be interesting to bring the Goldpoint over and hear it in your system, as I *suspect* it'll do a similar thing there as it does here in mine... :)
Marco.
Virtual-Symmetry
24-05-2016, 21:11
I like to listern to distortion. Amps with Technically near perfect spec on paper have always sounded pants to me compared to ones with a certain amount of Distortion figures..
The 'measurists' amongst us won't agree, but I know where you're coming from ;)
Marco.
Indeed, although next time I'm in Glasgow it would be interesting to bring the Goldpoint over and hear it in your system, as I *suspect* it'll do a similar thing there as it does here in mine... :)
Marco.
Aye,
Bring it over Marco, see how she does against the Densen.
Ali's Slagle was "different" when he brought it over, but agree 100% with you on these things being system dependant.
This ^
There's only one thing an active pre can add and that is a little bit of noise and distortion. Since low output tape decks and tuners disappeared there is absolutely no point to them whatsoever.
I've used an NVA P90SA too, it also added its own character, certainly not "transparent", the tonal balance, timbre & flatter soundstage was less natural than my LFD active. It wasn't a case of me preferring 'noise' and 'distortion'.
We can go around all day, but we shouldn't be so dismissive with blanket statements like "all actives must add more distortion". There's more to it than that.
Indeed :)
I also noted at NEBO Ali Tait commenting on the P90SA sounding somewhat edgy and 'spotlit'. I know where he's coming from, but in my experience so far with NVA kit, it's pretty obvious that it's been designed/'voiced' to work together as a system with other NVA equipment, so results can be unpredictable when used outside of that context.
In Macca's system, it certainly doesn't sound as you describe, although to my ears (and I've now heard it on five separate occasions with different equipment) the P90SA does have an inherently 'shiny' presentation, which may be a problem in some set-ups.
Of course, all of this proves that NO passive preamp is 100% 'transparent', or is compatible with every system, as indeed NO other piece of kit is either.
Marco.
I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that the P90SA is in any way 'edgy' or 'shiny' and I've used it with many different power amps with all sorts of topologies and not found the performance to be in any way variable.
At the last 2 NEBOS we have compared various passive pre-amps and all produced a high quality of sound, the differences between them being slight and inconsequential in comparison to other changes one might make to a given system.
I've never heard an LFD so can't comment on that comparison.
I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that the P90SA is in any way 'edgy' or 'shiny'...
Well, to my ears, and I've heard the NVA often enough now, it's been 'voiced' on the bright side of neutral, and Ali seems to agree. It's a fairly obvious trait, which I can hear whenever I listen to it. Whilst I agree that isn't a problem in your system, it could be in others, where the overall balance is brighter.
That said, I like it and think it's a good piece of kit, but not without its own 'character', like pretty much everything else out there :)
Marco.
I'd have to disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that the P90SA is in any way 'edgy' or 'shiny' and I've used it with many different power amps with all sorts of topologies and not found the performance to be in any way variable.
At the last 2 NEBOS we have compared various passive pre-amps and all produced a high quality of sound, the differences between them being slight and inconsequential in comparison to other changes one might make to a given system.
I've never heard an LFD so can't comment on that comparison.
Not heard or even seen a lfd or a nva. Like most things in audio it all depends on context...by that i mean what its used with, where its used room wise and what ears are listening. Some folks bright is anothers ok, as is some folks natural non coloured being anothers flat n boring
I agree that it has some character, the only way to achieve true transparency is to pass the signal through zero components, which is a little tricky.
However with a passive like this you are only passing the signal through some silver wire and a resistor - I suppose the silver wire might exhibit a 'bright' character but we are talking tiny differences here.
My personal philosophy with getting a good sound is simply to cut the bullshit and minimise noise and distortion as much as possible. So a passive pre makes logical sense in that regard. I have heard a few very good (as in clear and uncoloured) active pre amps but they cost thousands and I just don't see the point in spending that kind of money when you can get the same result for a lot less with a passive.
Fair do's, muchacho, although I still consider the Croft to be a notch up from the Goldpoint, NVA or indeed any other passive I've heard (albeit, as you say, at some cost), so not quite then "the same result" :)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-05-2016, 13:30
I agree that it has some character, the only way to achieve true transparency is to pass the signal through zero components, which is a little tricky.
However with a passive like this you are only passing the signal through some silver wire and a resistor - I suppose the silver wire might exhibit a 'bright' character but we are talking tiny differences here.
My personal philosophy with getting a good sound is simply to cut the bullshit and minimise noise and distortion as much as possible. So a passive pre makes logical sense in that regard. I have heard a few very good (as in clear and uncoloured) active pre amps but they cost thousands and I just don't see the point in spending that kind of money when you can get the same result for a lot less with a passive.
Yep. We seem to read from the same hymn sheet on hi fi if not politics Martin :) Whereas with Marco..... :D
...he largely agrees with my politics, but not so many of my views on hi-fi.... Swings and roundabouts.
;)
Marco.
P.S You should've been at NEBO to hear what a DL-103 is supposed to sound like! :eyebrows:
And I agree with no one on any thing;) coz
Arkless Electronics
25-05-2016, 13:42
...he largely agrees with my politics, but not so many of my views on hi-fi.... Swings and roundabouts.
;)
Marco.
P.S You should've been at NEBO to hear what a DL-103 is supposed to sound like! :eyebrows:
:eyebrows:
Yeah would have loved to have been there and hopefully somehow got the Class A beast there to demo but my wallet said no...
Shame. The other lads and I were discussing that we'd have gladly chipped in for your fuel costs, so we could've heard your kit. It's a pity we hadn't thought of that before.... :)
Marco.
Yep. We seem to read from the same hymn sheet on hi fi if not politics Martin :)
lol - with politics we want the same outcomes we just don't agree on the method.
Largely the same with hi-fi - Marco and I tend to like a similar sound we just disagree occasionally about what exactly matters to making it sound good.
Same destination, slightly different route... ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
25-05-2016, 15:30
Shame. The other lads and I were discussing that we'd have gladly chipped in for your fuel costs, so we could've heard your kit. It's a pity we hadn't thought of that before.... :)
Marco.
Hindsights a wonderful thing :)
We will hopefully try and do something similar to NEBO but more midlands based, for those who can't make it all the way up to Geordie -land. Maybe a little later in the year so possibly you could make it down to that Jez?
Scottish apathy Society (SAS) had a meet but nobody including the orginiser bothered to turn up. Except me and my pies ... Bastards, ;)
Arkless Electronics
25-05-2016, 16:26
We will hopefully try and do something similar to NEBO but more midlands based, for those who can't make it all the way up to Geordie -land. Maybe a little later in the year so possibly you could make it down to that Jez?
Hopefully. Tax, test and insurance runs out on bike in a few days and need new back tyre @ £!00 for mot so looks like I'm off the road until people start buying some of my wonderful amplification products!!
Scottish apathy Society (SAS) had a meet but nobody including the orginiser bothered to turn up. Except me and my pies ... Bastards, ;)
:lol:
Had a local Clairvoyants meet organised for this week, but it was cancelled due to unforseen circumstances..
(..I'll get my coat)
Hopefully. Tax, test and insurance runs out on bike in a few days and need new back tyre @ £!00 for mot so looks like I'm off the road until people start buying some of my wonderful amplification products!!
?? Just bought /installed a set of Diablo Rosso Corsas ( 600RR ) 300$ (not gbps) on the Bike price.
Happily No weights whatsoever required to balance either. Well balanced tires And a competent 'fitter'
Absolutely magnificently performing tires.
Small to no issues with heating the things to trust to them either.. V nice.
A Whole new world stiction upgrade from the OEM Bodgestones.
Seriously! recommended.
hifinutt
27-05-2016, 18:30
I rather like the tisbury passive . its not bad for the money . I am using one at the moment while my main pre is in for service
Arkless Electronics
27-05-2016, 18:47
?? Just bought /installed a set of Diablo Rosso Corsas ( 600RR ) 300$ (not gbps) on the Bike price.
Happily No weights whatsoever required to balance either. Well balanced tires And a competent 'fitter'
Absolutely magnificently performing tires.
Small to no issues with heating the things to trust to them either.. V nice.
A Whole new world stiction upgrade from the OEM Bodgestones.
Seriously! recommended.
Dunlop Roadsmarts.. daft name but so impressed by last one I'll get another.
Your ride isn't a Crotch Rocket toy.. I can safely presume?
I only ride My moto whenever I feel the urge see God.. Sporadically and Only under conducive conditions.
Not knowingly willing to risk Free shots on Goal ;)
Dunslops aren't even on my radar. But we ALL have differing expectations.
Arkless Electronics
28-05-2016, 15:48
Your ride isn't a Crotch Rocket toy.. I can safely presume?
I only ride My moto whenever I feel the urge see God.. Sporadically and Only under conducive conditions.
Not knowingly willing to risk Free shots on Goal ;)
Dunslops aren't even on my radar. But we ALL have differing expectations.
CBR1100XX
Impressive! those were spectacular machines.. 20 years ago :eyebrows:
You ..really.. should try a higher spec tire imo. The Corsa's will Not disapoint. They really do stick well and Temp (tire OR road) is no longer such a critical factor.
600 RR has 128 hp crank @ 13,000 And weighs in at 160 Kgs. Dunno if it's quicker.. Prolly? a bit quicker, certainly less mass to chuck about, as a guess (see the 20 years bit)
Does top out at ~155/60 Mph though.
Only a wee bit More speed than my friends Hi Spec Viper ;) Does stay a few feet in front of it every inch of the way (barely) though.
I rather like the tisbury passive . its not bad for the money . I am using one at the moment while my main pre is in for service
Hi use one.Superb pre kicked a 1500 quid active out system which is well rated yours charlie
Impressive! those were spectacular machines.. 20 years ago :eyebrows:
You ..really.. should try a higher spec tire imo. The Corsa's will Not disapoint. They really do stick well and Temp (tire OR road) is no longer such a critical factor.
600 RR has 128 hp crank @ 13,000 And weighs in at 160 Kgs. Dunno if it's quicker.. Prolly? a bit quicker, certainly less mass to chuck about, as a guess (see the 20 years bit)
Does top out at ~155/60 Mph though.
Only a wee bit More speed than my friends Hi Spec Viper ;) Does stay a few feet in front of it every inch of the way (barely) though.
Hooligans,I'm jealous,yours charlie
Arkless Electronics
08-06-2016, 00:22
Impressive! those were spectacular machines.. 20 years ago :eyebrows:
You ..really.. should try a higher spec tire imo. The Corsa's will Not disapoint. They really do stick well and Temp (tire OR road) is no longer such a critical factor.
600 RR has 128 hp crank @ 13,000 And weighs in at 160 Kgs. Dunno if it's quicker.. Prolly? a bit quicker, certainly less mass to chuck about, as a guess (see the 20 years bit)
Does top out at ~155/60 Mph though.
Only a wee bit More speed than my friends Hi Spec Viper ;) Does stay a few feet in front of it every inch of the way (barely) though.
164BHP at crank. 0-60 about 2.7 seconds. 192 Kgs (I'm 19 stone and 6'4" so it ain't that important! I'm not the most aerodynamic of riders :lol:), Top speed 186 MPH.... I'm not about to get bored with that even if there are now even faster machines... non of which has the overall package of comfort, usability, and ability to take passengers and luggage that the Blackbird has. Hence the only thing I would theoretically replace it with would be the ZZR1400 Kawasaki... but I'd never buy a Kwaka for erm.. personal reasons... ok a mate died on one... at 30 mph, run over by a transit van, and the only one I ever owned blew up after about 200 miles (GPZ550) and one I borrowed (a 250 trials bike) changed gear of its own accord randomly... Everyone else seems to have been luckier with Kawasakis... I'm a Yamaha man for me 2 strokes and Honda for 4 :)
The Roadsmarts have been very impressive, as the reviews claimed, and wipe the floor with the Bridgestones I'd been a fan of before (020's etc). they seem to really suit the 'bird to the extent that I'll be replacing 'em like for like.. they stick to the road like shit to a blanket :eek: :D
Sounds like a good ride. I'm envious
No purpose in to devolving into a Mine's Bigger than Yours waste of bandwidth.
Wayyyy Too much of that in here.. Already ;)
My reflexes are slowing and while a Busa is surprisingly affordable (cheap).. here,
albeit an oddly attractive machine.
I won't be risking one. Not overly clever for Spilt minute reflexes.
Tire choice is always a personal decision. Only suggesting you consider Pirelli's.. one day.
Merely a heads up.
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