View Full Version : Lockwoods in da house! - advice please
Hello all,
promised myself I wouldn't look at old hifi again (because I end up spending ages messing with it), but saw these old gals for sale and curiosity got the better of me:rolleyes:
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Was chuffed when I saw the drivers! Spotless with sequential serial numbers.
Cabs are rough, walnut (I think, maybe teak) formica veneer painted black with a floor brush and in a bad state externally but really clean inside and working a treat.
They are a sealed enclosure and work surprisingly well in my small room, look huge though! Makes you look like you're really serious about your hifi though:eyebrows:
I have never owned or even heard big Tannoys and know nothing about them except what I've read on the net over the past few days but I can see why people say there's no going back, they are effortless, realistic and very revealing (in a nice way).
Problem is the dreaded system synergy is now a bit askew and these are crying out for a nice valve amp! D'oh :doh:It's a slippery slope!
Could I ask your advice on what to do to ensure these go on for many a year to come?
The foams have almost what look like straight cuts running from the cone straight to the frame, is this normal? Any I've seen pictures of are either completely wrecked or re-foamed. Do these look like the original foams or a dodgy re-foam at some stage? Do I need to re-foam or even re-cone? Crossovers?
As far as the cabinets go, I think I'll strip the formica off, re-veneer in real oak or something fancier (there's a lot to cover mind, won't be cheap), replace the input connector with some 4mm terminals, replace the grill cloth and get some open stands made. Nice project for this year.
Here's a link to the sales brochure, although it quotes DC386 drivers. Had to laugh, they call these their SMALLER monitors, serious company.
http://www.lockwoodaudio.co.uk/images/lockwood2_lrg.jpg
I know there's a lot of people very experienced with this stuff on here, would appreciate your advice, thanks, John.
P.S. What are these worth roughly?
walpurgis
25-04-2016, 19:30
Nice find, but the cone surrounds are knackered. I have seen them split like that before. If it was me, I'd fit new surrounds myself, but most opt for a recone 'cos it's easier (but seven times the price).
Nice find, but the cone surrounds are knackered. I have seen them split like that before. If it was me, I'd fit new surrounds myself, but most opt for a recone 'cos it's easier (but seven times the price).
Thanks, I believe there's a video or two on you tube showing how to do the re-foam but is it reasonable to do or a complete nightmare?
I'm a bit wary of make it look easy videos ;)
Here's a few more photos:
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walpurgis
25-04-2016, 20:10
Have a look through my old thread. You'll see how it's done (or how I did it anyway :)).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?19555-My-new-(vintage)-Tannoy-Cheviots!&highlight=%28vintage%29+tannoys
PaulStewart
25-04-2016, 20:15
Hi John,
Welcome to the Lockwood Academy owners club :) Mine are fitted with Monitor Golds and I love them. Notwithstanding what Geoff (Walpurgis) says, I would talk to Nick at Lockwood about getting the cones sorted. Also, I have just finished a refurb where I fitted the "Mainly Tannoy" X-Over and a new Bi - wireable terminal plate using gold plated coper terminals. Speedy steve of this parish (Magna Audio) made the for me and the whole lot made a significant improvement to the sound. These are great speakers, I've had mine about 12 years now and I would not part from them.
Have a look through my old thread. You'll see how it's done (or how I did it anyway :)).
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?19555-My-new-(vintage)-Tannoy-Cheviots!&highlight=%28vintage%29+tannoys
Wonderful, exactly what I needed, off to Tannoy for a re-cone it is - no way my nerves would hold out for that.
Great job by the way, nice to see skills in action.
Just listening to "At The Club" by Ray Charles, WOW! These are keepers.
Hi John,
Welcome to the Lockwood Academy owners club :) Mine are fitted with Monitor Golds and I love them. Notwithstanding what Geoff (Walpurgis) says, I would talk to Nick at Lockwood about getting the cones sorted. Also, I have just finished a refurb where I fitted the "Mainly Tannoy" X-Over and a new Bi - wireable terminal plate using gold plated coper terminals. Speedy steve of this parish (Magna Audio) made the for me and the whole lot made a significant improvement to the sound. These are great speakers, I've had mine about 12 years now and I would not part from them.
Thanks Paul, more food for thought. Will see if I can dig something up on the "Mainly Tannoy" crossovers.
Lots of nice stuff on the Magna Audio web-site :)
Hi John,
Nice find. Welcome to the world of speakers that let you hear what bass there is on recordings properly! ;)
As you're also finding, the level of musical insight big Tannoys can offer, and how they can 'unlock' the most complex of recordings, allowing the listener to hear right into the mix, is virtually unequalled.
Enjoy - and I'll follow your continued journey with interest :cool:
Marco.
I'd try restoring the formica - there are those with experience who say sound is detrimentally affected by its removal from Lockwoods. And it's the original finish. I think vintage kit should be kept as original as possible - too much around has been mucked about with.
I'd also advise sourcing original Tannoy surrounds and having a go yourself* - if you do a nice job you have taught yourself a handy and useful skill which puts a lot of second hand speakers in the "possible" list, and if you do a less than nice job, re-coning is still there as an option. Usually surrounds are comparatively inexpensive, so you wouldn't be down very much.
Good luck!
*If it's not too late.
The Black Adder
26-04-2016, 11:59
You could strip the formica but I'd strongly advise you not to. The formica is part of the sound. Formica is thick rigid stuff where veneer is very thin and flimsy, so take a guess.
Find a place who fit Formica and get a quoteywoty.
And yes... they need re-coning. Last time I heard, Lockwood charge about £150 for the job.
Well worth doing it and getting them fully sorted - you'll then have some of the best loudspeakers .... in the world.
Nice Find! I'd Tread lightly on a Recone.
Are they going to refit Genuine... Goodmans' mfgd Cones?
Prolly something of more recent mfg...with a pleated (too Stiff) surround that will sound 'different' and take a Loooong time to break in.. either the cones Or your perception (either is arguable :-).
Having spent large.. in time and years (decades) 'fooling' with My Golds crossovers.
I strongly suggest you Don't ..Only.. update the capacitors in your existing units, as these do time out.
Listen for a year or so then consider More intervention. If you must.
There has evolved an entire sub industry in Molested Tannoy Crossovers. Many are imo; sketchy, at best.
As aside: a Quality Tube amp is not Required.
One can do better :-)
Wakefield Turntables
26-04-2016, 20:07
Welcome to the manly Lockwood owners club, it's nice to know that 15" is better than 12" :eyebrows:.
Eh, I'm not cutting 3" off of mine for anyone! :D
Marco.
Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement and conflicting viewpoints, now I really don't know what to do!
Tried scraping the paint off the top of one cab.
I started on this panel because it is really badly damaged already so no big loss if I made a hash of it. As you can see there is a whopping great chunk of Formica missing off of one corner.
Actually came up pretty well but was a bit of a nightmare.
This bit took me about an hour and a half solid work - reckon both cabs would take me a couple of months :rolleyes:
Still sounding awesome, but my amp and CD player are just that bit thin sounding, OK with the right recordings - my Rega RS3s have quite a full balance.
I think the CDS1 is the main culprit but it isn't going anywhere so a change of amp will be on the horizon sometime down the road and since I'm thinking of getting rid of the RP6 anyway that will mean a complete system change :doh:
Few photos of tonight's handiwork, knew that Costa rewards card would come in handy :)
Looks like Oak finish to me - what do you think?
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Jeez, why would you want to have painted over that nice 'wood grain' (effect or otherwise), with that shitty black paint? :doh: Honestly, some folk need locking up!
Haven't seen them in that finish before, John, but they look to be in half-decent nick. Like others have said, I wouldn't touch the formica, just try and repair it as best as you can, as removing it will most certainly alter the sound of the speakers, and I suspect, not for the better.
Btw, a CDS1 shouldn't sound thin - quite the opposite, when partnered correctly. HPDs respond well to valves or SS, so simply choose your favourite poison :)
Marco.
is it water based paint or oil based?
is it water based paint or oil based?
I think it's water based but still a right pain. Bit like taking off wall paper or plaster, some easy bits and some really slow bits.
Jeez, why would you want to have painted over that nice 'wood grain' (effect or otherwise), with that shitty black paint? :doh: Honestly, some folk need locking up!
Haven't seen them in that finish before, John, but they look to be in half-decent nick. Like others have said, I wouldn't touch the formica, just try and repair it as best as you can, as removing it will most certainly alter the sound of the speakers, and I suspect, not for the better.
Btw, a CDS1 shouldn't sound thin - quite the opposite, when partnered correctly. HPDs respond well to valves or SS, so simply choose your favourite poison :)
Marco.
I think the CDS1 is just very clean with no bloom. I suspect a 303 Quad would be good tonally.
Yes, I'm seriously considering keeping the Formica and repairing as best I can as you say.
walpurgis
26-04-2016, 22:27
You could always use a Formica cased amp to drive them. Rogers HG88?
I think it's water based but still a right pain. Bit like taking off wall paper or plaster, some easy bits and some really slow bits.
I have read that if you scrub the area with warm, soapy water, this may be enough to remove the stain.
Applying an ammonia-based household cleaner with a spray bottle or dry cloth should remove stubborn water-based paints. Rinse the area with water after..
not tried it but may be worth a go on say the underside and see if it is quicker.
Don't make any decisions on amplifiers etc until you have the drivers fixed - is my advice.
Looks like the original finish is pretty good. Not sure what you can do about the missing chunks of formica. Maybe some sort of resin fill?
The Black Adder
27-04-2016, 08:01
Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement and conflicting viewpoints, now I really don't know what to do!
Tried scraping the paint off the top of one cab.
I started on this panel because it is really badly damaged already so no big loss if I made a hash of it. As you can see there is a whopping great chunk of Formica missing off of one corner.
Actually came up pretty well but was a bit of a nightmare.
This bit took me about an hour and a half solid work - reckon both cabs would take me a couple of months :rolleyes:
Still sounding awesome, but my amp and CD player are just that bit thin sounding, OK with the right recordings - my Rega RS3s have quite a full balance.
I think the CDS1 is the main culprit but it isn't going anywhere so a change of amp will be on the horizon sometime down the road and since I'm thinking of getting rid of the RP6 anyway that will mean a complete system change :doh:
Few photos of tonight's handiwork, knew that Costa rewards card would come in handy :)
Looks like Oak finish to me - what do you think?
167991680016801
John.. I used Fairy power spray to get the paint off my Lockwoods... it's evil stuff but fetches paint off like a treat.
Wakefield Turntables
27-04-2016, 08:03
John,
Youll find the Lockwoods to be a labour of love but when you get them sorted you'll be glad of the effort.
The Black Adder
27-04-2016, 08:09
Welcome to the manly Lockwood owners club, it's nice to know that 15" is better than 12" :eyebrows:.
Well they are but the 12" MG's do sound slightly more dynamic even so, quicker transients. Bass is bloody good with 12" MG's too if you get them in the correct enclosures with a sorted (correctly updated) crossover. The 15" drivers are better in regards to bass and scale but the 12" ones are no slouch I can tell you that for sure and worth more than the asking in comparison to 15" drivers.
The 10" MG's... well, not good IMO.
walpurgis
27-04-2016, 09:52
The 10" MG's... well, not good IMO.
Agreed. But the 10" HPD is extremely nice.
It's great to get the benefit of all your experience folks, I've taken it onboard and the updated plan is to strip the paint over the coming weeks, as time permits, and stick with the Formica rather than ditching it for veneer. Probably get them reconed but I haven't completely ruled out doing the surrounds myself, I'll do some more research. I'll check the components on the crossovers and replace anything that looks or reads dodgy with original value components. I might return to the crossovers down the line once I'm used to the speakers and I'll do nothing regarding my amp until everything is settled in.
You really do need to have those reconed at the minimum. I always advise a recone rather than refoam because (as most people forget) the suspensions on those will be well past their best by now. I get a lot of Tannoys in for fettling and all without exception have lowered Fs readings due to soggy suspension. Ignore earlier comments about worries of pleated or "wrong" surrounds...that's nonsense. Lockwood Audio supply the correct cone, suspension and Tannoplas foam type surrounds for HPDs to restore these to the correct T&S parameters with the benefit that the new voicecoil insulation has a higher power rating than the originals. It's all good.
Crossovers will more than likely want removing, taken apart, switches cleaned some joints possibly re-flowing, and ideally, capacitors changed for better quality new ones. It makes a positive difference, trust me. The output wiring is usually made up of 3 core ligting flex (fitted from the factory) to the original 4 pin plugs. The wiring is non-ofc and non-tinned to tends to corrode at the 4 pin plug end. best thing is to replace it with inexpensive OFC or tinned wiring and best place for the original plugs is in the bin. Mark Pitcher or myself can supply new manufacture gold plated sprung 4-pin plugs for these. Best of luck with them.
You really do need to have those reconed at the minimum. I always advise a recone rather than refoam because (as most people forget) the suspensions on those will be well past their best by now. I get a lot of Tannoys in for fettling and all without exception have lowered Fs readings due to soggy suspension. Ignore earlier comments about worries of pleated or "wrong" surrounds...that's nonsense. Lockwood Audio supply the correct cone, suspension and Tannoplas foam type surrounds for HPDs to restore these to the correct T&S parameters with the benefit that the new voicecoil insulation has a higher power rating than the originals. It's all good.
Crossovers will more than likely want removing, taken apart, switches cleaned some joints possibly re-flowing, and ideally, capacitors changed for better quality new ones. It makes a positive difference, trust me. The output wiring is usually made up of 3 core ligting flex (fitted from the factory) to the original 4 pin plugs. The wiring is non-ofc and non-tinned to tends to corrode at the 4 pin plug end. best thing is to replace it with inexpensive OFC or tinned wiring and best place for the original plugs is in the bin. Mark Pitcher or myself can supply new manufacture gold plated sprung 4-pin plugs for these. Best of luck with them.
Thanks Paul, appreciate the advice and offer - I'll be in touch in due course regarding the crossovers.
Tbh, I'm thinking of taking the drivers to Tannoy at Coatbridge for a recone. In fairness they gave me Lockwoods details, who I've spoken to as well and were very helpful too but Glasgow is closer and I'm thinking of driving over with them rather than posting as I don't trust them to get there or to London and back in one piece.
I've got the tops of both speakers nearly stripped of paint but Rexton was right, labour of love. Tried different cleaners etc but no avail. Hair drier definitely helped with the really stubborn bits but the heat is causing the Formica to lift at the edges. Right royal pain. Stickability is not one of my strong points but I'll plod on though because they are fantastic!
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Johnjo, I've had an idea that might save you the hassle of stripping these cabs which will be a massive task and probably not give you a finish commensurate with your efforts. Retain the formica to keep the unique sound. Fill and sand the gaps and then get them professionally vinyl wrapped in black carbon fibre or gloss black. It would cost a few quid but they would look brand new.
Yes, but why consider that a boring black finish would be better than what's there now? Personally, I think that would cheapen the speakers and spoil their authenticity and retro/vintage appeal.
S'up to John, though :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
29-04-2016, 08:18
you can also veneer over the formica... it would need some prepping but possible I suppose.
Morning. Spent main part of yesterday on the cab with the damaged top. Now have ALL the dreaded black paint off of this one :) Hermit, there is no way, no way (Jackie Gleason style) these are going to be refinished in black I can tell you that :steam: but I appreciate the input. The more time I spend with these the more their 70s mojo is growing on me and I'm now coming round to the viewpoint of keeping these as original as possible. I've accepted that they aren't going be visually perfect and personally I think they look pretty cool.
I contacted the local distributor for genuine Formica and got some advice and prices for new laminate sheets as I was thinking of re-wrapping them or at least replacing the tops. The sheets are about £40 for an 8 x 4 but they are now only 0.8mm thick, the stuff on the Lockwoods is about double that! I can see how it adds to damping the cabs and I'm sure reduces ringing. So with that in mind I think I'll just patch the broken/missing corner with some sympathetically coloured resin and leave them as they are. I see stuff on Ebay for repairing wooden floors, something like that.
Regarding the paint stripping, I tried various household sprays (couldn't get the Fairy Power Spray Josie), petrol (recommended by Formica suppliers), white spirit etc. but no response whatsoever. Heat was the only thing that helped, hot air gun was better than the hair drier which took longer and seemed to cause the Formica to lift more. The Formica held up fantastically well to the heat though, I tried to use just enough heat and no more, keeping the gun a few inches away from the surface. The trick was getting a scraper that was hard enough to shift the paint and not soften in the heat but at the same time not so hard that it would mark the surface, steel was a no-no. Don't laugh but the best I found was a spare light switch, the standard white urea type plate switch. This was excellent :)
When I had finished I gave all the surfaces a good clean down and then stuck the couple of small areas that were lifting back down with PVA and left them clamped over night. Cleaned the surfaces down again this morning and gave them a coat of furniture wax. The back shows the most wear and fading and was the worst to strip. Some of the black paint has sort of embedded itself in the Formica and is there for good but it's not so bad looking. Think this must be UV damage so I expect they spent their life in front of a window prior to being painted.
Taking a break from paint stripping today, might have a look at the crossovers later.
Should have said, thankfully the bottoms of the cabs weren't painted but are scratched as can be seen in the last photo, will never be seen though and should polish out a bit.
Oh, and for the record, an empty cab weighs 44lb :interesting:
Excellent work, John. That's much more like it, and true to their originality! :thumbsup:
Did these come with castors on the bottom? Most do...
Marco.
walpurgis
01-05-2016, 11:14
Keep an eye on eBay used furniture from the sixties/seventies or visit your local boot sales and even charity shops. You should sooner or later spot something in suitably coloured thick vintage Formica that can be cannibalised for its laminate. If you have the patience, Formica can be removed by wetting edges with brush cleaner and allowing it to soak under the laminate. It will slowly come unstuck, as it was nearly always bonded with contact adhesive. Might take a day or two though.
They have come up lovely. Even Jackie Gleason would be impressed.
No castors Marco or any other signs of mounting so I reckon they were sat on shelves or stands originally.
Had thought of some donor furniture Geoff, thanks for the tips on removal. Will let things develop and see what comes up.
What's everyone's opinions on crossovers? I'm minded to just check out and clean up the originals but I see a lot on the net about new circuits.
walpurgis
01-05-2016, 12:45
What's everyone's opinions on crossovers? I'm minded to just check out and clean up the originals
My take is that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. There are those who think older Tannoy crossovers are compromised. Can't say I've heard a problem myself. A friend of mine has a pair of MG Chatsworths with aftermarket crossovers from a well known source and I suspect he is not entirely convinced about their 'benefits'. My current Tannoys date from 1978 and sound incredibly good on their original crossovers, which have been checked over, but not altered.
The Black Adder
01-05-2016, 14:58
The only thing that may need changing in vintage crossovers are the Electrolytic caps for safty reasons mostly... everything else should stay the same. Sometimes there are benefits in having the crossovers upgraded, especially externalising them 'But' they must be done properly testing a series of different components of original values and a well trained ear. Some original values were way out.
I've seen a fair few different crossovers for the MG's with different/wrong values originally fitted which in some ways had slight variations in specs but some values were way, way out. The Tannoy guys who designed/made them knew their stuff but sometimes the manufacture, supply and fit were not so reliable, even back in the day.
My take is that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. There are those who think older Tannoy crossovers are compromised. Can't say I've heard a problem myself. A friend of mine has a pair of MG Chatsworths with aftermarket crossovers from a well known source and I suspect he is not entirely convinced about their 'benefits'. My current Tannoys date from 1978 and sound incredibly good on their original crossovers, which have been checked over, but not altered.
Yes, sort of thinking that myself. Had a good look over them and briefly ran the multimeter round them and they are both reasonably well matched, with nothing obviously wrong looking.
The wiring is really poor looking stuff as are the plug and socket into the driver itself, definitely change the plug and wiring.
Also, the input connectors on the back look to have originally been a tiny 3 pin din socket which has been superseded at some stage with an XLR socket.
I'll have to replace these too as they are nasty - probably get a piece of plate cut with holes for binding posts unless someone comes up with a better idea.
Does anyone know what the timber baton on the rear of the front baffle is for, looks like it goes below the driver? Catching bits of perished surround?
The only thing that may need changing in vintage crossovers are the Electrolytic caps for safty reasons mostly... everything else should stay the same. Sometimes there are benefits in having the crossovers upgraded, especially externalising them 'But' they must be done properly testing a series of different components of original values and a well trained ear. Some original values were way out.
I've seen a fair few different crossovers for the MG's with different/wrong values originally fitted which in some ways had slight variations in specs but some values were way, way out. The Tannoy guys who designed/made them knew their stuff but sometimes the manufacture, supply and fit were not so reliable, even back in the day.
I always thought of electrolytic capacitors as cylindrical metal cans, pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I don't see any in here just foil types, but then I'm not very knowledgeable on this stuff and am probably talking rubbish :rolleyes:
The switches look reasonably clean, on the outside anyway.
spendorman
01-05-2016, 16:13
It's a few years since I looked at my HPD315 crossovers, but I don't seem to remember seeing any electrolytic capacitors in there. Gold crossovers may be different, even more years since I have seen those.
The Black Adder
01-05-2016, 16:28
I always thought of electrolytic capacitors as cylindrical metal cans, pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but I don't see any in here just foil types, but then I'm not very knowledgeable on this stuff and am probably talking rubbish :rolleyes:
The switches look reasonably clean, on the outside anyway.
They generally are, I don't know if yours have any. just saying.
It's the contacts in the switch that are most important.
Take the switch apart and clean with some Q-Tips and some IPA. Then some De-Oxit.
My take is that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. There are those who think older Tannoy crossovers are compromised. Can't say I've heard a problem myself. A friend of mine has a pair of MG Chatsworths with aftermarket crossovers from a well known source and I suspect he is not entirely convinced about their 'benefits'. My current Tannoys date from 1978 and sound incredibly good on their original crossovers, which have been checked over, but not altered.
They are compromised in several areas Geoff. You only have to compare them using your ears to improved crossover designs , then look at the measured results which perhaps explain what your ears might be telling you to appreciate that. I, for one, have worked for a fair few years now on alternative designs which remain pretty faithful to the original circuit but improve upon it in several key areas for a far more linear and smoother response, plus improved damping factor when used with valve amps. The basic circuit is sound but there's a number of issues with older ones, including the switches, the quality of the caps, the painfully thin and narrow PCB tracks, the corroded 4 pin connectors and crappy wiring which on many pairs shows corrosion just behind the solder joints where the cable's exposed and lastly and not leastly, the design itself, more specifically of the HF section of the crossover.
I believe it's quite a flawed design in may ways and the voltage step isn't strictly needed to achieve the "Q" they were after and certainly not to achieve a linear response. It can, and has been improved on and anyone hearing the differences can tell you that the improvements to be had are not subtle. It benefited the originals, especially for studio monitoring work to have the ability to raise HF detail for analysing detail in a mix or the contrary, to roll it off for louder monitoring as a way of F-M compensation. Tannoy undoubtedly may have had very good reasons in designing the originals the way they did at the time. The variable level controls were also touted at the time for domestic listening as a way to balance the sound depending on the furnishing in one's room but the truth is that the original measures like a dogs dinner, and in many cabs, sounds like it too (few vintage factory cabs did the drive units justice). Of course many will be perfectly within specification and perfectly serviceable, but they can be improved and I'll never understand the thinking which is rooted in a refusal to accept things can't be bettered. However, all that to one side, it's perfectly understandable and laudable that many just wish to keep something the way it left the factory (in design if not in condition) but that's not to say that originals cannot be boxed away and alternatives used. You must pop over some time and have a listen to some of the designs here.
Based on my own experience with Tannoy DCs, and having the crossovers modified, I can't disagree with any of that. Much as I love vintage speakers, some things in audio have actually moved on...! ;)
In saying that however, if John's loving what he's hearing, and can detect no obvious faults, there's also a valid argument for leaving things as they are :)
Marco.
walpurgis
02-05-2016, 19:12
You must pop over some time and have a listen to some of the designs here.
That would be good.
Mind you, It's rare for me to go further than the park with the dog these days. :D
2nd cab completely stripped of paint today :) and looking good.
Paul, thanks for your input regarding the crossovers, what you say makes perfect sense, I'm sure there's room for improvement which Paul "doc" has already testified to but for now I'm gonna run with the stock ones to get me going ang revisit later down the road.
I will be changing all the cabling though as the original stuff is rubbish looking, what do you recommend, I was thinking just some OFC? Also, what is the purpose of the plug and socket on the driver? Would a couple of screw connector blocks be better, at least you're getting a direct cable to cable connection?
Need to decide if I'm gonna fit some banana sockets too or just wire straight in to the crossovers.
Also, the grill material is really heavy, almost rubberised stuff, is this doing any harm?
Based on my own experience with Tannoy DCs, and having the crossovers modified, I can't disagree with any of that. Much as I love vintage speakers, some things in audio have actually moved on...! ;)
In saying that however, if John's loving what he's hearing, and can detect no obvious faults, there's also a valid argument for leaving things as they are :)
Marco.
Yea, I'd like to get used to the original XOs first, and since they look OK we should be good to go.
I'm going to look at packaging the drive units, see if I can do a good enough job for giving to a courier. They're the next link in the chain. Things are moving quicker than I thought :)
spendorman
02-05-2016, 20:16
I had the 4 pin plug and socket playing up, poor contact, cleaned the pins and sockets with some Servisol, and all was OK.
Got the clamps off the 2nd cabinet and gave it a good clean up.
Also picked up this little wooden packing crate which I hope to fit a middle shelf to and get both drivers in for posting. I'm much happier with this than a cardboard box and a load of bubble wrap. Bracing myself for the courier costs but I suppose it will be cheaper than taking the ferry.
Is there any difference in the recone that Lockwoods do compared to Tannoy? Does theirs have the longer lasting surround?
Definitely going to replace the grill cloth, wonder would a light colour be better than black?
Got the clamps off the 2nd cabinet and gave it a good clean up.
Also picked up this little wooden packing crate which I hope to fit a middle shelf to and get both drivers in for posting. I'm much happier with this than a cardboard box and a load of bubble wrap. Bracing myself for the courier costs but I suppose it will be cheaper than taking the ferry.
Is there any difference in the recone that Lockwoods do compared to Tannoy? Does theirs have the longer lasting surround?
Definitely going to replace the grill cloth, wonder would a light colour be better than black?
Tannoy are no more and I doubt the guys left there have much motivation left after recent announcements. Go to Lockwoods, they'll do a great job and have been at it for many many years so know what they're about. You're worrying over issues which are not issues in reality. There are no "longer lasting surrounds" for HPDs. The foam Tannoplas surrounds last between 15 to 20 years before a re-foam is needed. Use any different material and you alter T-S parameters, especially Fs (self resonant frequency of the woofer) which then changes cabinet tuning requirements. Typically a refoam on it's own will see Fs at between 18 to 21 Hz whereas factory spec is closer to 25-27 Hz (ie what the cab tuning was based on). The re-cone replaces worn and tired suspension and puts the drive units back to factory spec. This has already been explained. Your choice to go with it or just chose the cheaper refoam which on elderly HPDs will NOT return them to factory spec on speakers which have 45 yr old suspensions.
Tannoy are no more and I doubt the guys left there have much motivation left after recent announcements. Go to Lockwoods, they'll do a great job and have been at it for many many years so know what they're about. You're worrying over issues which are not issues in reality. There are no "longer lasting surrounds" for HPDs. The foam Tannoplas surrounds last between 15 to 20 years before a re-foam is needed. Use any different material and you alter T-S parameters, especially Fs (self resonant frequency of the woofer) which then changes cabinet tuning requirements. Typically a refoam on it's own will see Fs at between 18 to 21 Hz whereas factory spec is closer to 25-27 Hz (ie what the cab tuning was based on). The re-cone replaces worn and tired suspension and puts the drive units back to factory spec. This has already been explained. Your choice to go with it or just chose the cheaper refoam which on elderly HPDs will NOT return them to factory spec on speakers which have 45 yr old suspensions.
Now that I've decided to send by courier rather than drive them there myself I'm happy to use Lockwoods. Hopefully they'll be able to offer after-service for years to come which won't be an option at Tannoy.
There are "longer lasting surrounds" for HPDs - they're advertised on Lockwoods website "Exclusive upgrade recone for HPD385 using hard-edge surround as used in Canterbury HE, Westminster HE etc." I spoke with Lockwoods today about them and while they are longer lasting, they're not forever fit and forget and will have subtle sonic differences so I have decided to go for a full re-cone with original Tannoplas surrounds.
Thanks for your help Paul.
Here's a few photos of the crate. Took the plastic magnet dust covers off as recommended by Lockwoods, apparently they're easily broken. Date underneath was 25th Feb 1980 so one of the later HPDs I assume. Crate weighs 27.5 kg including the speakers.
Now winging their way to Lockwood Audio :)
The Black Adder
05-05-2016, 18:27
Groovy!...
They will sound superb when they come back. Bet you can't wait. :)
Bet you can't wait. :)
Correctamundo :eyebrows:
Now that I've decided to send by courier rather than drive them there myself I'm happy to use Lockwoods. Hopefully they'll be able to offer after-service for years to come which won't be an option at Tannoy.
There are "longer lasting surrounds" for HPDs - they're advertised on Lockwoods website "Exclusive upgrade recone for HPD385 using hard-edge surround as used in Canterbury HE, Westminster HE etc." I spoke with Lockwoods today about them and while they are longer lasting, they're not forever fit and forget and will have subtle sonic differences so I have decided to go for a full re-cone with original Tannoplas surrounds.
Thanks for your help Paul.
Good to speak to you today!
As a word to the wise, what Lockwood advertise as "longer lasting surrounds" do NOT keep the drive units to factory spec, and this has quite a marked effect on tuning , bass performance and sensitivity as well as impedance profile. Factory Westminsters and Canterburies did not use the HPD385. there were other later time compensated K series drive units used for those which whilst some call them HPD's they are not. They use different magnets, a shorter horn throat and have different T-S specifications.
The He surrounds raise the Fs of the drive units considerably so I would strongly advise against it. This is NOT a factory spec modification, it was done years ago because a customer wanted it done, and it became a mod many decided on, but it does change the tuning and not for the better. There is no engineering or acoustic reason for the mod other than a customer once wanted surrounds that wouldn't perish so that's what was provided. Tannoy did not fit these to HPDs but they did fit rubber surrounds to very late production MG 12 inch drive units (and in their case, they improved bass performance) but these were a different grade and design, and not the same as the one's Lockwood use for the HPDs. I have heard these and trust me, in some cabinets, the response differences are anything but "subtle" and never for the better. Best look on it a s a changed specification HPD. Performance-wise, it is not an upgrade, it is a retrospective step.
If you want the best from your Lockies, you've made absolutely the right decision going for a full re-cone and original Tannoplas surrounds :thumbsup:
Good to speak to you today!
As a word to the wise, what Lockwood advertise as "longer lasting surrounds" do NOT keep the drive units to factory spec, and this has quite a marked effect on tuning , bass performance and sensitivity as well as impedance profile. Factory Westminsters and Canterburies did not use the HPD385. there were other later time compensated K series drive units used for those which whilst some call them HPD's they are not. They use different magnets, a shorter horn throat and have different T-S specifications.
The He surrounds raise the Fs of the drive units considerably so I would strongly advise against it. This is NOT a factory spec modification, it was done years ago because a customer wanted it done, and it became a mod many decided on, but it does change the tuning and not for the better. There is no engineering or acoustic reason for the mod other than a customer once wanted surrounds that wouldn't perish so that's what was provided. Tannoy did not fit these to HPDs but they did fit rubber surrounds to very late production MG 12 inch drive units (and in their case, they improved bass performance) but these were a different grade and design, and not the same as the one's Lockwood use for the HPDs. I have heard these and trust me, in some cabinets, the response differences are anything but "subtle" and never for the better. Best look on it a s a changed specification HPD. Performance-wise, it is not an upgrade, it is a retrospective step.
If you want the best from your Lockies, you've made absolutely the right decision going for a full re-cone and original Tannoplas surrounds :thumbsup:
Paul, thanks for all your advice, great talking to you too, I learned a lot :)
Speakers are back from Lockwoods and looking a million dollars:)
Got them back in their cabs yesterday and cleaned the switches in the crossovers, tightened crimps, cleaned plug pins etc.
Sounding great and getting better by the hour.
Initially a bit sharp but mids are fleshing out now and bass is gaining definition but still a bit plummy, hopefully by the end of the week they will be nicely run in.
Very listenable mind you, lovely :)
Still think an amp change could be on the cards down the line but I'll take Macca's advice and not rush into anything!
Speakers are back from Lockwoods and looking a million dollars:)
:worthless:
;)
Marco.
pgarrish
22-05-2016, 19:40
You have a good few weeks of improvements to look forward to if mine were anything to go by. You'll be sitting there listening and go 'that sounds different to yesterday, there's more bass/detail.... cool!'
:worthless:
;)
Marco.
Ahh, I was in such a rush to hear them I didn't take any photos before I fitted them in the cabs :lol:
Did notice the cone strengthening ribs are a lighter colour than the originals.
You have a good few weeks of improvements to look forward to if mine were anything to go by. You'll be sitting there listening and go 'that sounds different to yesterday, there's more bass/detail.... cool!'
:) Good to know, running an Isotek bumps, thumps and whistles cd through them on a loop (when I'm not listening to toons).
Marked improvement today.
The hardness that set in at moderate levels is mostly gone, they're playing at real levels now, as if a singer was in the room and boy does Nora Jones sound good. A double bass has appeared too but you can tell there's more to come. I'm salivating at the thought :D
I genuinely can't believe how good these are on this acoustic material, beyond anything I've heard or thought possible at home.
Once the bass fully opens up and tightens the boogie woogie factor should hopefully arrive.
Must phone Lockwoods tomorrow to thank them and get their account number to send the money, they're so laid back :)
No one at home today so I've left Radio 1 blaring to help run them in.
Should be plenty of bass heavy stuff :)
Can't wait to hear the improvement tonight.
Radio 1?
I'd suggest playing some music through them, personally ;)
Radio 1?
I'd suggest playing some music through them, personally ;)
Macca's, thank you for pointing out a possible misunderstanding.
Let me say, it was chosen for 1 reason, boom boom content to run the drivers in ;)
I can't listen to music on the radio now, there's virtually never anything on I like.
My car has a dab radio and I find now I listen to radio 4 extra plays more than anything.
No CD player mind which is a pain as I'd rather drive in silence than be bothered putting stuff on an SD card :doh:
I seem to be turning into an old git, is this normal in your 40's?
Virtual-Symmetry
24-05-2016, 13:12
I seem to be turning into an old git, is this normal in your 40's?
O yes :eyebrows:
The Black Adder
24-05-2016, 14:02
Glad they are hitting the spot.
Pics, pics, pics... and one of you dancin' ;)
I seem to be turning into an old git, is this normal in your 40's?
Yes. In fact it is your constitutional right. Embrace it.
If it has to be radio I like Smooth FM. Like Radio 2 used to be in the 1980s - so good, in other words.
But I understand you were just breaking the drivers in, it was my little joke ;)
Glad they are hitting the spot.
Pics, pics, pics... and one of you dancin' ;)
Hmm, you're not ready for that, I'M not ready for that!
As you can see I'm a fan of minimalist art:)
Virtual-Symmetry
24-05-2016, 21:31
Great speaker stands
:lolsign:
Great speaker stands
:lolsign:
Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment :)
Since you're a connoisseur here's a close up ;)
I am deliberately spending as little as possible on the Lockwoods until I'm sure I'll be keeping them, hence the makeshift arrangements.
Goes to show a chap can never have enough spare speakers, fence posts and towels:)
But I understand you were just breaking the drivers in, it was my little joke ;)
I know, we're good:)
Radio 2 today though :D
Perhaps ? a bit more elevation (taller stands) and try for at least 8' preferably 10' apart ?
Tans are Incredibly sensitive/responsive to Upstream gear.
More so than many/most all other drivers, Tiniest changes are audible .. with small ambiguity.
In short: any 'shortcomings' ain't a Drivers issue.
Perhaps ? a bit more elevation (taller stands) and try for at least 8' preferably 10' apart ?
Tans are Incredibly sensitive/responsive to Upstream gear.
More so than many/most all other drivers, Tiniest changes are audible .. with small ambiguity.
In short: any 'shortcomings' ain't a Drivers issue.
Centre of drivers are 7' apart, the room is only 11' wide and the baffles are 20" so I'm pretty limited and you're right I could really do with 4" on the stands to get the tweeters at ear level, but I'm worried the fence will fall down :D
I think you're right about upstream equipment too - I changed an interconnect tonight and the difference was massively audible. I'm pretty sure a different amp would reap big rewards too but we'll get there.
There's lots of very knowledgeable Tannoy users on here :)
:) You might consider simply sitting the rascals on Chairs ?
Definitely inelegant but as experiment, a quick and effective test.. unlikely the fence will fall over either.
Not much one can do about room size though.. without relocating rooms.
Well I've got the speakers raised another couple of inches which definitely helps and they are still loosing up. I reckon I've a hundred hours plus of mostly radio play through them since reconing and I think they'll need the same again but each day brings improvement.
Oh and I've got a nice little valve amp winging its way here too, should arrive by Friday but we're out all next weekend so little time for listening :(
I'll try to get proper image hosting sorted by then and get some decent photos up rather than thumbnails.
so what's the valve amp?
Primaluna Prologue 5 with KT120s fitted. I am hoping it will warm things up and add a bit of body as the instruments sound slightly thin at the moment. It was obvious from day one that something warmer on the amp front was required to match these in my room. I have the treble energy at -1 and the roll off at pos. 1 as well, but the speakers are still running in and hopefully will continue to flesh out with time. If this amp doesn't work out I think a Quad 606/707/909 will be next!
And maybe it's partly the monitor nature of the HPDs, which is a presentation I'm not used to.
A crossover update might add some body to the mids as well.
The other aspects of the speakers' sound is so exemplary I think it's going to be worth the work and effort of getting everything else right.
Testing, testing 1,2, trying to embed an image, here we go now
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/FA48ACCB-49E7-49E0-95BB-6EC74D432EF0.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/FA48ACCB-49E7-49E0-95BB-6EC74D432EF0.jpg.html)
Testing, testing 1,2, trying to embed an image, here we go now
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/FA48ACCB-49E7-49E0-95BB-6EC74D432EF0.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/FA48ACCB-49E7-49E0-95BB-6EC74D432EF0.jpg.html)
Hehe, thanks Filterlab for the how to guide :cool:
I have the treble energy at -1 and the roll off at pos. 1 as well
Oops, just checked and the roll off is set flat, not at 1 - forgot I put it back to flat after a couple of days of running in. Treble enegrgy still at -1 though.
walpurgis
31-05-2016, 21:47
I've always used Tannoys with the controls set level. The sound just seems not quite right otherwise to me. I find that if the top seems a little forward, something else in the system is causing it (interconnects often).
(I like the speaker stands by the way. Most unusual. :))
Level, or even at -1, usually works the best Geoff and -1 actually results in the more linear response. I can only surmise that Tannoy persisted with the switches to save re-jigging the crossovers for an auto-formerless HF of the correct electrical "Q" and because it was a marketing feature to have adjustable HF energy. Originally it allowed studios to up the energy at lower volumes when mastering as a way of compensating (F-M et al) but measurements on the results of keeping switches in point to some issues borne out by listening. Rather it's the other way round....listening picks out issues borne out by measurement.
the switches do four things:
1. They alter HF energy
2. This creates step differences in crossover which can become quite obvious, especially just off axis;
3. The step subtly alters crossover frequency, and with it, crossover distortion;
4. They roll off higher frequency, needed when the energy levels are turned up to combat the natural rising horn response.
In truth, the response can become quite a mess and very forward with the controls raised.
With the MGs especially, there is also quite a peak at cone break-up just before crossover and this, in some drivers, has been tested at over 10dB!
The HF step-up which, despite the term "treble energy and roll off controls" are way more evident throughout the very sensitive upper mid band areas from 1.2kHz to 3KHz as well as lower HF. Actually having a raised response from 6 to 10KHz upwards isn't a bad thing, especially at lower volumes and the horn response will naturally give a gentle rise in this region before the parallel zobel starts to roll it off between 12 to 15KHz.
That's one of the main reasons that I have re-engineered the original design to remove the step response, lower the peak, and smooth the HF response. It involves electrical compensation to achieve the correct electrical "Q" without the autoformer in place but cannot (thankfully!) replicate the energy step which in my experience, and humble opinion is simply not needed for domestic listening, and indeed is undesirable and detrimental to a really decent and smooth response. They sound all the better for it. Detail where it's needed in the upper mid and HF without the forwardness.
Level, or even at -1, usually works the best Geoff and -1 actually results in the more linear response. I can only surmise that Tannoy persisted with the switches to save re-jigging the crossovers for an auto-formerless HF of the correct electrical "Q" and because it was a marketing feature to have adjustable HF energy. Originally it allowed studios to up the energy at lower volumes when mastering as a way of compensating (F-M et al) but measurements on the results of keeping switches in point to some issues borne out by listening. Rather it's the other way round....listening picks out issues borne out by measurement.
the switches do four things:
1. They alter HF energy
2. This creates step differences in crossover which can become quite obvious, especially just off axis;
3. The step subtly alters crossover frequency, and with it, crossover distortion;
4. They roll off higher frequency, needed when the energy levels are turned up to combat the natural rising horn response.
In truth, the response can become quite a mess and very forward with the controls raised.
With the MGs especially, there is also quite a peak at cone break-up just before crossover and this, in some drivers, has been tested at over 10dB!
The HF step-up which, despite the term "treble energy and roll off controls" are way more evident throughout the very sensitive upper mid band areas from 1.2kHz to 3KHz as well as lower HF. Actually having a raised response from 6 to 10KHz upwards isn't a bad thing, especially at lower volumes and the horn response will naturally give a gentle rise in this region before the parallel zobel starts to roll it off between 12 to 15KHz.
That's one of the main reasons that I have re-engineered the original design to remove the step response, lower the peak, and smooth the HF response. It involves electrical compensation to achieve the correct electrical "Q" without the autoformer in place but cannot (thankfully!) replicate the energy step which in my experience, and humble opinion is simply not needed for domestic listening, and indeed is undesirable and detrimental to a really decent and smooth response. They sound all the better for it. Detail where it's needed in the upper mid and HF without the forwardness.
Good stuff Paul, would be keen to hear your crossovers down the line when I'm happier with the rest of my set up and thanks for your input, very educational :)
I've always used Tannoys with the controls set level. The sound just seems not quite right otherwise to me. I find that if the top seems a little forward, something else in the system is causing it (interconnects often).
(I like the speaker stands by the way. Most unusual. :))
Re. the crossover switches, I'm just following my ears, working with what cables etc. I've got at the moment.
The stands are proving very popular :lolsign:
I like the look of these though:
http://userweb.117.ne.jp/y-s/images/DK-40-s.jpg
With the MGs especially, there is also quite a peak at cone break-up just before crossover and this, in some drivers, has been tested at over 10dB!
OK I'll bite :scratch: What Break up ?
Tannoys often measure rather poorly. That said; Few speakers sound as well.
The LF cone rolls off naturally/all by itself by ~1700 hz .
It can run sans crossover, rolling off quite nicely ..naturally. LF section of the xover is fine tuning/impedence fiddling basically.
One can build Troels' Crossover schematic for audible improvements overall. Should you want to :eyebrows:
Easy to cobble up using real world components rather than the Jantzen bits.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/MG15XO-up-grade.htm
Or.. IF you want, I can email the Xover circuit that Nelson Pass uses in his Reference Tannoys.
I didn't much like it when I tried it, 20 years ago.
But he does.. More than likely he has much better ears :-)
Important to note that the Oem version, once recapped (only) remains as Formidable/the one to try and beat.
Took me 40 years of bumbling to come to terms with that
IMO Tread lightly.
Beyond all the above babbling..
Fix.. Everything Else.. in your setup First, before doing anything more than recapping your oem Crossovers.
OK I'll bite :scratch: What Break up ?
Tannoys often measure rather poorly. That said; Few speakers sound as well.
The LF cone rolls off naturally/all by itself by ~1700 hz .
It can run sans crossover, rolling off quite nicely ..naturally. LF section of the xover is fine tuning/impedence fiddling basically.
One can build Troels' Crossover schematic for audible improvements overall. Should you want to :eyebrows:
Easy to cobble up using real world components rather than the Jantzen bits.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/MG15XO-up-grade.htm
Or.. IF you want, I can email the Xover circuit that Nelson Pass uses in his Reference Tannoys.
I didn't much like it when I tried it, 20 years ago.
But he does.. More than likely he has much better ears :-)
Important to note that the Oem version, once recapped (only) remains as Formidable/the one to try and beat.
Took me 40 years of bumbling to come to terms with that
IMO Tread lightly.
Beyond all the above babbling..
Fix.. Everything Else.. in your setup First, before doing anything more than recapping your oem Crossovers.
Do your research would be my advice before making such erroneous statements. The MG (15 inch especially) suffers from cone breakup resonance close to and above crossover frequencies as a natural function of the diameter and stiffness functions of the cone and increases distortion. It is the reason that the HPD progressed to using girdercoustic ribs to stiffen the cone. It cannot run without a crossover and have a smooth linear response. That is complete and utter misguided twaddle.
For the record, whilst I have a lot of time for Troels, some of his assumptions drawn in his brief Tannoy history described in his MG piece are not correct at all, and importantly the values he's assumed for the crossover schematic (as standard) , including those shown on his schematics are also incorrect. He has apparently copied some of the misinformation from that circulating widely on the net. His assumed crossover point is also incorrect. His measured data also seems to be based upon a faulty drive unit. His reasoning as to the development of the HPD is also completely wrong and incomplete. I have spent years researching and designing around Tannoy drive units and do happen to know a little about the subject but why let the facts get in the way of a good story...
I wont get drawn into any further debate nor waste my time trying to argue with someone who clearly has little understanding on the subject. I am more than happy to advise anyone who needs information on Tannoy loudspeakers. Just send me a PM. Probably better this way than risking opening up debate to internet trolls.
Guys, let's lighten up, be friendly towards each other, and not get het up merely over someone's hi-fi opinion, something which everyone is entitled to but we don't all have to agree with ;)
Marco.
montesquieu
07-06-2016, 16:02
Guys, let's lighten up, be friendly towards each other, and not get het up merely over someone's hi-fi opinion, something which everyone is entitled to but we don't all have to agree with ;)
Marco.
To be fair Marco all of Paul's points are well established - Trowells realy should have edited his posts long ago as they are now a long-standing trap for the unwary or internet-credulous, while the belief that the so-so quality vintage crossovers can't be bettered is a direct consequence of the duff circuit doing the rounds (Hans's site is notably guilty here) that has disappointed many people, including myself a number of years back. Many of us have benefited from Pauls considerable Tannoy expertise here, I have to say it irritated me too to see discredited info presented as fact in some sort of misguided 'rebuttal' of Paul's comments.
I don't disagree with any of that, Tom, or that Paul has plenty of Tannoy expertise.
I just don't like it when things move from being friendly to something else, for whatever reason. Therefore, I insist that doesn't happen, no matter who's 'fault' it is, and that folks here contribute to the forum with a smile on their faces, not a scowl :)
Marco.
I don't disagree with any of that, Tom, or that Paul has plenty of Tannoy expertise.
I just don't like it when things move from being friendly to something else, for whatever reason. Therefore, I insist that doesn't happen, no matter who's 'fault' it is, and that folks here contribute to the forum with a smile on their faces, not a scowl :)
Marco.
Oh, there was no scowl Marco, I even included a smilie thingy. I meant every word but with a smile on my face ;)
No worries, mate. Let's just move on :)
Marco.
I don't disagree with any of that, Tom, or that Paul has plenty of Tannoy expertise.
I just don't like it when things move from being friendly to something else, for whatever reason. Therefore, I insist that doesn't happen, no matter who's 'fault' it is, and that folks here contribute to the forum with a smile on their faces, not a scowl :)
Marco.
Yea, everybody on this thread has helped me, last thing we want is a fall-out.
Tom (Montesquieu), would you share you're experiences of upgrading crossovers please, do you use monitor golds or HPDs?
Thanks
John
montesquieu
07-06-2016, 18:43
Yea, everybody on this thread has helped me, last thing we want is a fall-out.
Tom (Montesquieu), would you share you're experiences of upgrading crossovers please, do you use monitor golds or HPDs?
Thanks
John
Gosh where to start ...I I'm coming up to 30 years as a Tannoy owner though I have had brief forays into Quad ESL land ... I've owned Lancasters (15in MG), GRFs (15in MG though also bought 15in HPDs/original crossovers to try), assorted Lockwoods (three pairs passed through, one pair of ex-studio vintage originals went to Josie here without me hearing them, the others were direct from Lockwood themselves and used with both 15in MG and 15in HPD), Autographs (15in MG), Chatsworths (12in MG), and my current RFC Canterburys (initially 12in MGs, later 12in HPDs). Crossovers have ranged from the originals, re-capped originals (both HPD and MG), custom externals using the (duff) MG cuircuit - this was a huge disappointment vs the originals, I had it built by a mate, but Nick Gorham here rescued the situation for me); electronic active crossovers (again built by Nick - these were fascinating, but I'm a valve guy at heart), and latterly a couple of iterations of Paul's crossovers, which were initially done for 12in MGs, redone for the 12in HPDs (which were massively better in my cabs than the 12in MGs) and upgraded recently to his super-dooper top spec ones with custom wound inductors.
Obvious lessons:
* Re-capped originals are a sensible baseline but can be vastly improved on in a way that removes hash and delivers better much clarity. Any that haven't been recapped yet are likely to need doing.
* The Hilberink MG circuit is significantly wrong and the source of much grief around the world (oodles on this on the Yahoo Tannoy forum).
* Actives are worth a shot but for me emphasised detail over musicality and the wholeness that Tannoys are all about. Some listeners preferred them though.
* A really well made external, aftermarket crossover is unequestionably the daddy -regardless of whether it's for MG or HPD.
* In my experience it's not just the vintage Monitor series Tannoy crossovers that benefit from recapping or replacement, and not just because of aged components. Tannoy have cut many corners over the years in component choice, and this applies as much to speakers made last year as it does to stuff from the 80s.
Beyond that, it's all up for grabs. There's no possible agreement on which is the best driver as people all prize different things - after donkey's years of being enthralled by the 15in MG, I now put the 12in HPD a whisker above it, but I wouldn't put down anyone else's preference for Silvers, Reds or whatever even if it doesn't float my boat. For example, in my cabs, the 12in HPDs give me a full octave more depth than 12in MGs, while, having 95% of the 15in MG's impact and a slightly cleaner sound than the 15in MG, a slight trade-off I'm personally willing to make as a renaissance/baroque/classical chamber music buff, but rock fan could well make a different call.
Firebottle
07-06-2016, 19:54
Fantastic post Tom :thumbsup:
I've only heard a couple, Marco's and ANother (don't know what) but having such experience is so good.
:cool:
Gosh where to start ...I I'm coming up to 30 years as a Tannoy owner though I have had brief forays into Quad ESL land ... I've owned Lancasters (15in MG), GRFs (15in MG though also bought 15in HPDs/original crossovers to try), assorted Lockwoods (three pairs passed through, one pair of ex-studio vintage originals went to Josie here without me hearing them, the others were direct from Lockwood themselves and used with both 15in MG and 15in HPD), Autographs (15in MG), Chatsworths (12in MG), and my current RFC Canterburys (initially 12in MGs, later 12in HPDs). Crossovers have ranged from the originals, re-capped originals (both HPD and MG), custom externals using the (duff) MG cuircuit - this was a huge disappointment vs the originals, I had it built by a mate, but Nick Gorham here rescued the situation for me); electronic active crossovers (again built by Nick - these were fascinating, but I'm a valve guy at heart), and latterly a couple of iterations of Paul's crossovers, which were initially done for 12in MGs, redone for the 12in HPDs (which were massively better in my cabs than the 12in MGs) and upgraded recently to his super-dooper top spec ones with custom wound inductors.
Obvious lessons:
* Re-capped originals are a sensible baseline but can be vastly improved on in a way that removes hash and delivers better much clarity. Any that haven't been recapped yet are likely to need doing.
* The Hilberink MG circuit is significantly wrong and the source of much grief around the world (oodles on this on the Yahoo Tannoy forum).
* Actives are worth a shot but for me emphasised detail over musicality and the wholeness that Tannoys are all about. Some listeners preferred them though.
* A really well made external, aftermarket crossover is unequestionably the daddy -regardless of whether it's for MG or HPD.
* In my experience it's not just the vintage Monitor series Tannoy crossovers that benefit from recapping or replacement, and not just because of aged components. Tannoy have cut many corners over the years in component choice, and this applies as much to speakers made last year as it does to stuff from the 80s.
Beyond that, it's all up for grabs. There's no possible agreement on which is the best driver as people all prize different things - after donkey's years of being enthralled by the 15in MG, I now put the 12in HPD a whisker above it, but I wouldn't put down anyone else's preference for Silvers, Reds or whatever even if it doesn't float my boat. For example, in my cabs, the 12in HPDs give me a full octave more depth than 12in MGs, while, having 95% of the 15in MG's impact and a slightly cleaner sound than the 15in MG, a slight trade-off I'm personally willing to make as a renaissance/baroque/classical chamber music buff, but rock fan could well make a different call.
Thanks Tom, smashing post as Firebottle says - it's great to get the benefit of experience like this without having to go through the hassle (and expense:)).
Will hopefully get to hear a set of Paul's crossovers in due course.
Just connected a valve amp up and the speakers don't sound like much anymore, just music ;).
There's a pesky ECC83 humming and intermittently rustling which is spoiling things though :(
:eyebrows:
Firstwatt amp makes NO noises ! Ears to the dustcaps ..V pots at max rotation.. Zero noises.
First time it caused me to get up and look to see If I had actually powered the thing up.
Hearing.. Nothing at all.. no cone thumps wiggles either....is very nice.. first time I experienced that, after 44 years with my Golds
One happily adapts to performances like this.
My bespoke Se 45 Meshplate amp (previous fittment :-) ? featured flies inside the dustcaps.
Just come across this thread, nice find and nice to see them returning to their former glory.
Wish I'd spotted it from the start, could have offered some suggestions on removing the Black paint and saved you some effort, still you got there in the end.
Looking forward to seeing them fully sorted.
Just come across this thread, nice find and nice to see them returning to their former glory.
Wish I'd spotted it from the start, could have offered some suggestions on removing the Black paint and saved you some effort, still you got there in the end.
Looking forward to seeing them fully sorted.
They are great but, as has been said, a pain but worth the effort.
Otis Rush blasting out of them now, awesome :D
Took about 300 hrs + to run in the reconed drivers.
Trying to get the system synergy sorted then I'll get on the stands next I think.
They are great but, as has been said, a pain but worth the effort.
Otis Rush blasting out of them now, awesome :D
Took about 300 hrs + to run in the reconed drivers.
Trying to get the system synergy sorted then I'll get on the stands next I think.
Well now that hoildays are over and my work load has eased a little I am turning my attentions back to getting the Lockwoods closer to finished.
I have invited my unsuspecting woodworking brother in law over for dinner this Friday and after his belly has been filled with our finest fayre and I've plied him with the couple of bottles of wine I brought him from France I will explain my speaker stand needs! No such thing as a free dinner chez moi :eyebrows:
I think I'll run with 4" x 4" oak, just a post in each corner and a couple of braces, side to side and front to back to hold them square.
Well the stands arrived yesterday and I'm well pleased.
They are very heavy and solid courtesy of nice tight mortice and tennon joints.
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/C4B327E5-2FAF-40EB-BC33-9964586A1EB3.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/C4B327E5-2FAF-40EB-BC33-9964586A1EB3.jpg.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/ED60946A-DAE7-4240-9A1F-6CFE3A80A9F3.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/ED60946A-DAE7-4240-9A1F-6CFE3A80A9F3.jpg.html)
Sound has both cleaned up and tightened up and with the drivers now at the right height the soundstage has opened up further.
The tightening of the bottom end has emphasised the mid-focused studio monitor nature of the Academy's though and ideally I'd like the presentation a little fuller at the bottom end, they are very dry and tight. This is probably due to them being a sealed enclosure and not ported. I'm wondering if it would be worth getting modelling done for fitting a port or maybe a tweak of the crossover would be the answer.
There's very little on the net about this model of Lockwood but they seem to be almost identical to Tannoy Mansfield.
British high fidelity
09-10-2016, 18:41
Wow! What a beautiful synergy they look great
Sent from my LG-H961N using Tapatalk
walpurgis
09-10-2016, 19:05
Very nice. Looking good. :)
Thanks guys, they are a super job, chuffed.
They have cleaned the sound up considerably over the pile they were sitting on previously but now too clean!
Strangely at low volumes the tonal balance is fuller but as you turn the wick up the mids really project out and the bass doesn't seem to quite stay in proportion giving a very "detailed " sound which becomes fatiguing.
Any ideas?
I think part of the problem is I prefer a bass heavy presentation.
The whole ensemble looks great John. :)
Thanks guys, they are a super job, chuffed.
They have cleaned the sound up considerably over the pile they were sitting on previously but now too clean!
Strangely at low volumes the tonal balance is fuller but as you turn the wick up the mids really project out and the bass doesn't seem to quite stay in proportion giving a very "detailed " sound which becomes fatiguing.
Any ideas?
I think part of the problem is I prefer a bass heavy presentation.
Sort of the problem I have at the moment. Have you played anything with some serious deep Bass? I mean synth bass that goes really low. I find my current set up does that really well but anything without that deliberate bass emphasis is just a little to the toppy side. Not enough to ruin it but enough that you notice,
Erm.. Broken ? comes to mind.
They should (must?) impress at All volume settings
Tannoys of My experience are Stunning contraptions..with No disapointments anywhere/any volume.
That said Tans :
Really do best in Big ported boxes. All brochure babbles aside.
Produce striking Dynamics with Amps sporting a decent instantaneous current capacity/depth... of which few to No Tube types manage.
Even a cheapish (No not Chi Fi!) Lm 3886 Chip amp does them justice.
Hearing Is believing.
Leaving only the obvious follow on suggestions to ease your unhappiness
IMO Refit the pore drivers into Suitable to purpose enclosures :-)
Use a suitable amplifier.
The Black Adder
11-10-2016, 08:34
Doubt if it's broken, Danilo.
Like all systems one of the main culprits with a new system is room treatment or/and positioning. Where is your bass going at high volume? Different speakers react differently with rooms and so you should try some treatment. But this is more than likely to only be minimal unless you go the full hog with it and make your living room a monitor room. lol
Your room looks quite small and with no angles. So it sounds like you are getting too much pressure in the midrange that is blotting out the lower range. Reflections are most probably the culprit.
One way that might yield results is to re-position your speakers. Being dual concentics they are pretty hot in areas so it's time to do the monitor dance, toe-in, toe-out, move back, move forward... then mark down the best positions on the carpet and do it all over again. I'd suggest starting with the speakers as far back to the wall as possible with a 2.5m distance in-between.
If it still doesn't make a difference it might be best to try some room digital room analysis.
What I've found over the years is that there is no real given formula for speaker positions as every room is different. Try it and see what you find.
Just try to dampen the walls down with anything not flat. Pictures are ok, but they are still planar. So hang some curtains, rugs or anything you can at the reflection points to the left and right of the speakers.
You can find these points with a mirror and a friend to move it along the side walls, when you can see the speaker in the mirror, that's your point to treat.
Another thing is to make sure the center of the DC is at ear level.
Just come across this thread - many congratulations on the hard work reconditioning these monitors. Absolute love the stands and the appearance of your final system. Regarding your comments on the bass as you are hearing it now - I couldn't help but notice you used speakers underneath the Lockwoods before the stands - even with the terminals shorted these cabinets would have resonated like the proverbial and filled out the bass. I suspect what you are hearing now is not what you've grown used to hearing - your next task will be get the speakers positioned in the room.
DGP
Slight toe out might help with the mids.
The Black Adder
11-10-2016, 10:28
Slight toe out might help with the mids.
+1
The Black Adder
11-10-2016, 10:29
They really do look smashing... really well done. :)
Thanks everyone, I will have a play with speaker positions when I get a chance. Hopefully there's a chap coming round tonight with a pair of amplifiers to try out. Will see how that goes and let you know.
@Macca, this is a synth free zone :D
.
@Macca, this is a synth free zone :D
LOL. I like my funk though, y'see :)
Thanks everyone, I will have a play with speaker positions when I get a chance. Hopefully there's a chap coming round tonight with a pair of amplifiers to try out. Will see how that goes and let you know.
Well this is a hollow post.
A super nice bloke brought over his Albarry M408 monoblocks and AP3 passive pre for me to try with the Lockwoods last night and having been thoroughly impressed I was keen to discuss the latest version of the amps with the manufacturer today but when I phoned I was told he had passed away just this morning.
I was gutted for them :(
How lightly we are here.
Getting back on topic, the amps helped me identify the issue I've been having with a sharp sound through my own components. For a start the Albarry pre was considerably warmer sounding no doubt due to the copper wiring as opposed to the silver plated stuff in mine and it also had a different Alps pot. The Albarry was 20K black, mine is 50K blue. We used the AP3 for the rest of the night as it was the better match.
The monoblocks were also fuller in the mids than my Primaluna Prologue 5 so it seems the combination of my pre and power are just pushing things too far past neutral for comfort.
The tonality (the TONE!) with the Albarry set up was perfect with my speakers and Naim CD player. Detail was served up effortlessly with a lovely texture to voices and instruments alike. Separation between instruments was better too and you got a nice sense of momentum building in a track. This made for very easy listening right from the off and we enjoyed a few of my fave CDs (we have both kinds of music here, country AND western! Another one for the favourite lines from films thread).
Having said all that the PL really kicks these speakers into action, you get a palpable sense of drums being hit, the drivers physically shift more air, you can feel it in the room. There's a much bigger sense of scale, the Albarrys sounding slightly trapped inside the speakers where the valve amp projects beautifully out into the room. Although whilst the soundstage was deeper with the Primaluna the Albarrys were more specific in their placement of sounds within the stage.
The valve amp also was much lighter on its feet with rhythms lilting along effortlessly, the Albarrys whilst OK in isolation sounded slightly leaden by comparison, robbing faster tracks of some verve. In fairness I think with a more sympathetic speaker they would be much better in this area.
I'm conscious that the M408s were 30 years old and probably not giving of their best but ultimately weren't quite meaty enough for the 15" HPDs, that's how it seemed anyway. With an easier load I think these would be fantastic. I would love to hear a set of M608s or M1108s. If I could keep the Albarry tonality but up the oomph and scale I think I'd be a happy chap.
All in all, what endeared me most to these amps was summed up by their owner Richard, they are so MUSICAL. I have to say you quickly forgot about the hifi and focused on the music but ultimately they weren't dynamically quite the right match for these speakers sounding just slightly contained or controlled.
I've read numerous posts since buying these speakers that big Tannoys can be tricky to match to an amp and I think that the fact that these Lockwood Acadamies are sealed cabs makes them even tougher to match as they are very well acoustically damped and can sound restrained or dynamically dead with a lot of amps. The Albarrys are BY FAR the best transistor amps I've tried with them.
To date I've tried:
Rega Elex-R - my original amp when I bought these. Not bad but sharp up top and a bit dynamically flat with these speakers. Was perfect with Rega RS3s.
Arcam Alpha 9P and Alpha 10 power amp. Very steady, couldn't say they were bad but couldn't say they were fantastic either, listenable but not IT.
Sugden Masterclass pre and power (older style). Like a tool box being emptied down a stone staircase, awful match, ooh my ears. What a disappointment as they looked awesome and I had such high hopes.
Luxman AX 590, 30w class A back-breaker. Good tonal match but too controlled sounding, never felt like it let go. Absolutely gorgeous piece of kit though.
JE Audio VM60 KT88 monoblocks. Beautiful treble, snorefest. Think the Gold Lions were long past their best.
Obviously these opinions are all in the context of my system.
Perhaps that's why the Primaluna sounds so alive with these speakers due to its low damping factor? Maybe all transistor amps will sound a bit lead footed with them because of high DF? I don't know. I'm conscious I don't have much experience in this sort of thing so I guess all I can do is try different amps when I get the chance but unfortunately opportunities in Northern Ireland aren't so plentiful.
I'm using 12" Tannoys in huge cabs with a Luxkit z501. 20w class A.
Having tried a number of amps, valve and solid state, this is the best I've found. Those Luxkits are not common but they do pop up from time to time. And if you want further openness, try running with red or silver crossovers, yeah, yeah, people holding up their hands, but try it....
Oh and with a Alps blue passive pot in a box. Very clear and you lose a lot of hash unless your active pre is seriously good, and probably expensive.
walpurgis
13-10-2016, 09:06
try running with red or silver crossovers
Pretty thin on the ground those and they are virtually unobtainable at sane prices these days. Even the HPD crossovers are fetching £200 a pair now.
Wakefield Turntables
13-10-2016, 10:05
Croft and Radford are what I would advise, for what it's worth.
Ah..good point. Wasn't thinking.
They're a lot simpler than gold or HPD crossovers so maybe DIY would be an option? Or befriending a DIYer.
Re valve amps, tried Quad 11's, Dynatron and 2 Leak Stereo 20's, one stock, one souped up. The Luxkit exceeds their performance and not by a small margin. However a Radford...now that might be worth hearing....
Arkless Electronics
13-10-2016, 14:54
The Leak stereo 20 is a real performer when modded sufficiently;)
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think the new Radfords look lovely but there's no way I'm handing out the thick end of £3k without hearing it in my system first. Hopefully getting a lend of a Croft integrated next week, should give me an idea of the Croft sound. Will see how that goes.
The Black Adder
13-10-2016, 19:36
Very nice amp is the Croft integrated, John. I'm sure you will be very happy with it.
pgarrish
17-10-2016, 19:20
I don't know how your cabs will compare to Cheviots so not all of this may apply. I use mine with both a big SS power amp (180wpc HHs500d) on a SS pre (rotel rc850), and 2 x 18wpc Mullard 5-20 valve mono blocks controlled by a DACT passive pre. There is plenty of bass at the speaker, definitely not overpowered by mids or treble. In my room, at my listening position, there is a pronounced bass dip but they still sound balanced, albeit a bit bass light but that manifests as a lack of depth not weight. Try moving your speakers around or change your seating position and see how the tonal balance changes. Assuming you find a position where they sound balanced at any volume, then it's your room and/or the speaker position relative to your listening position. If the imbalance is consistent, I'd say it's the combo of kit. Old Naim CD players were (to my ears) quite forward. Try to borrow an old Rega or Arcam player and see how that works for you.
Ps, I reckon the Radford would be a very safe gamble!
Thanks Paul, yes the forwardness is due to the combination of components up stream. I'm working on it :)
I think the Naim CDX players were known as being a bit lively but I think the CDS isn't so sharp.
pgarrish
21-10-2016, 20:14
If you find yourself this side of the water you're welcome to visit
If you find yourself this side of the water you're welcome to visit
Very decent of you Paul. No plans at the minute but you never know!
Just typed a whole load of stuff in here then accidentally deleted it - raging :D
Anyway, quick recap and update for those that are interested.
In many ways these speakers have been a mixed blessing, a bit like Turkish Delight, full of (eastern) promise but not very palatable at times.
They have worked best at low volumes where the bass has been in best proportion to the mids and treble but with rising volume bass output didn't seem to keep up. Took me a long time to work out that it wasn't necessarily bass *weight* but more importantly dynamism. I found myself sticking with the richer recordings in my collection but I was missing a lot of good, not so well recorded, stuff.
Other things that were bugging me were centred around amplification. When guys who's opinions I thoroughly respect like Geoff (Walpurgis) who have a lifetime's experience of Tannoys were recommending solid state amps and working with 20watt SS amps themselves how come every SS amp I tried sounded dead as a door nail and 25watters like the Firstwatt M2 were totally under-powered? And why was my Primaluna with it's low damping factor the only amp to bring these speakers to life when guys like Paul at RFC were saying that HPDs need an amp with a high DF? I've tried some SERIOUS amps with these and the Primaluna trounced them which made NO sense at all, Luxman 590AX, Albarry etc. Last straw was last weekend when I tried a Naim Supernait 2 which is also known to be no slouch but again no magic :scratch:
The virtually unique thing about this incarnation of big Tannoys is that they are a sealed design and hence heavily acoustically damped. The only other unported ones that I know of are the equally rare Tannoy Mansfield. The Lockwoods are also heavily lined inside with wool sheets about 2" thick adding to the effect. In a moment of inspiration I took the mounting screws out of one side of the crossover panel and pushed it inside the box, creating an opening of about 5/8" x 3" in the rear of each speaker and pressed play :)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/32B28DEE-AFD6-43F4-A867-166D784CDA5C.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/32B28DEE-AFD6-43F4-A867-166D784CDA5C.jpg.html)
1. Seemingly increased volume (higher sensitivity?) but subsequently checking using a db checker on my phone showed peak levels the same at a given position on the volume position for sealed and open cabs:scratch: I'm certainly listening with the volume control in a considerably lower position now.
2. Increased bass weight and POWER.
3. Improved sound stage width and depth. Also imaging has taken on a new level of in-the-roomness for vocals and particularly instruments.
4. Richer, more natural tonality overall along with an ease in the presentation that's hard to put into words.
5. Improved resolution and detail. Breaths and movement of performers are suddenly noticable.
6. Once CDs go on now they play to the end :D
7. The amp is now sounding how you would expect it to, full and fruity, particularly in the bass and I can't help thinking SS is the way to go.
The whole thing just seems to breathe now in a way it never has.
So, how do you calculate an optimum bass port diameter, length and position?:eyebrows:
walpurgis
13-04-2017, 20:31
Interesting result John.
There numerous port calculators online, such as this: http://www.mh-audio.nl/reflexboxcalculator.asp
Interesting result John.
There numerous port calculators online, such as this: http://www.mh-audio.nl/reflexboxcalculator.asp
Ah, that looks complicated :)
The Academys are virtually identical in size to the Tannoy Berkeley which uses the HPD 385 driver too. They seem to have a couple of what look like 2" ports on the front at the bottom.
I didn't realize Tannoy did sealed enclosures for HPD drivers.
Tannoy's specification says the HPD 385 has an Fs of 22Hz and a Qes of 0.2
This gives it an EBP (Efficiency Bandwidth Product) of 110 (Fs/Qes)
Roughly speaking a figure of:
0-50 is meant for sealed only
50-90 is for either
90-200 is for ported only
So based on the Tannoy figures the HPD 385 is best suited to a ported enclosure.
On Hans Hilberink's site he also shows some measured results after a re-cone, using the added mass method of Fs14.7 Qes0.19 = 77 EBP which would suggest it would suit either type of enclosure. But nothing to suggest the driver/surround was run in before testing.
Make what you like of those figures. :)
Normally, if keeping a flat response with Qtc 0.707 an optimum ported enclosure would be much larger than an equivalent optimum sealed design. The ported version would go considerably deeper though, up to an octave in some instances, dependant on the port tuning of course.
The on-line calculator Walpurgis links to isn't as daunting as it first appears, once you start populating the fields.
There are others which look friendlier, but you will still have to enter box volume, desired tuning frequency, number of ports, etc.
The airspeed, to avoid port noise, adds extra parameters and if you are going to flare the port entry/exit you will need to take this into account for overall length. All the information you need is out there in one form or another.
Thanks Ken, that's great info. I'm out and about today but will hopefully have a go at the calculator later using these values then report back to get your advice if that's ok?
There are plenty of people on here with more experience than me, but I will help where I can. :)
Right, here we go, bear with me as this may contain nonsense :)
Here's the original brochure for the Lockwood Academy, admittedly with the DC 386 driver but cabinet dimensions are the same.
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Lockwood%20Academy%20Brochure.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/Lockwood%20Academy%20Brochure.png.html)
If we subtract 20mm all round for the cabinet this gives internal dimensions of 47 x 22 x 72.5 cm which equals 75 Litres. The brochure quotes 68L so I assume they are assuming 7L for the driver, crossover, bracing etc. which seems reasonable. We will input this data into the online calculator.
Here are the T&S parameters from Tannoy. We will use this data since my drivers were completely reconed by Lockwoods and should be close to factory specs, rather than using the measured values of a driver with replaced foam but original soggy suspension. The only measurement I am using from this table is the driver diameter of 32cm as I can't be bothered to open up the cabs to take my own measurement and it sounds about right anyway. These tables are both from the hilberink site.
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/HPD385%20TS.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/HPD385%20TS.png.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Measured%20HPD%20385%20TS.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/Measured%20HPD%20385%20TS.png.html)
Plugging these into the online calculator we get:
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Calculator%201.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/Calculator%201.png.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Calculator%202.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/Calculator%202.png.html)
I've manually inputted the port diameter of 9.9cm as this was the closest commercially available size to the 9.61cm originally suggested by the calculator.
How does this look to everyone?
Just ran the data for the sealed cab on the simulator. The dimensions are different from my actual speakers in both the sealed and ported examples as it suggests these itself once you put in the volume but don't think it matters as the volume is the same. Can anyone explain the expected differences between the ported and sealed cab from the results of these models? I don't understand the meaning of the "calculated performance" figures. Thanks.
P.S. Good simulator Geoff and thanks Ken for getting me started with the data :)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Sealed%20Cab.png (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/Sealed%20Cab.png.html)
Hi John
I ran the same program last night, only I guessed the cab volume and got similar results to you.
I have heard it said that Tannoy drivers don't model well and that what works in the real world can be substantially different.
This would seem to be the case as it is suggesting an ideal ported volume of 68L, for a 15" driver!
Also the performance calculator shows an F3 of 58.63Hz which is not deep at all, my 4" Quad bookshelves will better that.
Increase the cabinet volume to say 90L (you can force it) and the F3 point comes down a bit, but still not great.
In case you do not know what F3 is (apologies if you do) it is the industry standard for stating how low a speaker will go.
All speakers will produce fairly deep bass, but it is the level of output that is important, as to whether we hear it. The frequency response will tail off in volume the lower you go and the industry decided that at a point 3dB below the nominal flat level, this would be the point to quote in the specs as a standardized and realistic audible level.
A 3dB reduction will half the volume level.
So that's the bass level quoted in the calculations.
This might be of use to you, Tannoy used to do DIY kits for the HPD series, you could buy the drivers/crossover and build your own cabinets.
They supplied dimensioned drawings for these including ports and based the 15" cabinets on Arden(175L) and Berkeley(98L) equivalents, presumably tuned for the same or similar results.
Find the HPD Technical Manual here: http://www.teknomage.co.uk/tannoy/
Check out the first two cabinet drawings.
As built by Tannoy:
The Arden had an F4 of 30Hz
The Berkeley an F4 of 35Hz
(Tannoy used a figure of -4dB in those days)
Hope that helps in some way.
Thanks Ken. I'd seen those drawings but didn't realise they were for kits. I will mess about a bit later using the crossover opening to test a few port possibilities hopefully. Entertaining a toothache at the mo and I've had better company, still blasting a bit of Albert Collins out though :D
My amp was comfortably hitting peaks of 96db at about 2.5m without obvious clipping so I reckon sensitivity in the low 90s, as expected I suppose.
Just remember it's a combination of diameter and length for the port tuning, opening the crossover panel is zero length, just the panel thickness.
What is the net volume of your cabinet?
68l net volume. Was thinking of dropping the crossovers inside the cabs and blanking the opening with a bit of plywood with holes and a couple of bits of plastic pipe in them.
In that 68L cabinet you are never going to get gut wrenching bass, but ported will be deeper than sealed. It really deserves a bigger box, 150 L ported will get you down to an F3 of 39Hz.
I ran my 12" Scanspeak driver details through the same program and got a 112 L net cabinet with a 3" x 23.75cm port giving an F3 of 22.5Hz. This shows its true colours as a sub bass drive unit and reflects what it is capable of in a ported enclosure. This also indicates the program is reasonably accurate in its predictions, if maybe a little optimistic.
Yeah, opened the speakers today and when you see the size of the cainet internal versus the driver basket it looks far too small. I'm seriously considering getting some cabs built.
Went ahead with the temporary porting as a trial, just finished, using the crossover opening to hold the port(s). The opening is 12 x 7 cm so no chance of fitting a 100mm port as recommended by the simulator.
I had a poke around the garage to see what I had that I could pressgang into service. Found some 40mm OD drain pipe, 35mm ID. Quick run through the simulator shows two of these 50mm long is OK. Time for some RAF style joinery :)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/AE8F0131-A6DC-4282-B728-D525352B0DC6.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/AE8F0131-A6DC-4282-B728-D525352B0DC6.jpg.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/BE305092-40AA-48B2-906C-A90A40415094.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/BE305092-40AA-48B2-906C-A90A40415094.jpg.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/7461D27E-5E27-4451-BF60-00DCF3D44388.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/7461D27E-5E27-4451-BF60-00DCF3D44388.jpg.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/3884D043-8FFF-4B24-90A7-1FACCBE9593D.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/3884D043-8FFF-4B24-90A7-1FACCBE9593D.jpg.html)
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/9495791F-FDC1-4E45-BA1C-ADECDAE43824.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/castle48/media/Lockwoods/9495791F-FDC1-4E45-BA1C-ADECDAE43824.jpg.html)
aye, its a big speaker that. might as you say prefer a bigger box
Those ports should give you an F3 of 58.6Hz, which is a good bit lower than your sealed cabinet (94Hz).
If you do decide to go bigger, follow one of the plans I linked to previously, no need to reinvent the wheel when Tannoy have done the work for you. ;)
walpurgis
15-04-2017, 21:29
Those ports should give you an F3 of 58.6Hz
That's likely to be OK I reckon. Bass output will extend well below that. Might be an idea to experiment with extra loose fibre wadding if the cabinet seems a bit 'lively' after porting.
Get some built John, the 160 litre or whatever, get the bass response flat down to the thirties. It has to be done.
Yes, if you have the space in your listening room, they deserve a larger cabinet, otherwise you will always wonder what your missing.
The point about extra stuffing when porting your cabinet is valid, so bear it in mind if you feel the results are a bit lively with your experiment.
The main issue with a pair of ports so small is port velocity, you will probably suffer from some chuffing noise from the ports.
Good practice is to have the port diameter at least one third of the driver piston diameter for a single port, in this instance (33.5cm = 11.17cm dia) that equates to an area of 392sq cm. The two small ports your using will give a combined area of just 77cm sq which is far to small. I'm guessing as to the exact driver piston diameter based on the 385 size. Measure across the middle of the surround domes to determine the exact figure, but my estimate is close enough to suggest there is a significant problem. It will do for a quick look see, to find if you like the overall result though.
Adding a flared mouth/inner to the ports helps reduce chuffing, but it won't compensate for such a large discrepancy.
If you want to use a flare in the future, you have to take the flare depth into account for the total effective length.
You add the length of the straight section to half the radius of the flare, for the total effective length.
So if you want a calculated 100mm port length and are using a 20mm radius flare, you want 90 straight plus 10 for the flare to give you the required 100mm effective length. It will actually measure 110mm in total. If you put a flare on the inside lip, make the same allowance (half the radius used) in your calculation.
Morning all. Only got a quick listen last night but definitely a more bass focused presentation with the ports in place. Of course this seems at the expense of some midrange magic but that's probably expected as the mids aren't as well pronounced now things are more balanced. I think the soundstage is even deeper and more specific in placement which is good but overall the sound is not as engaging as before with the crossovers pushed into the box, but it's early doors. Possibly a slight lack of snap on leading edges and transients. The box isn't singing with the extra bass at all, they're very solid and inert.
There are two options if I decide to go for new cabs, bigger standmounts around the 130L mark or full on floorstanders 170L or so. It's a small upstairs room though with a suspended floor and I am concerned about boom. My stands are slightly oversized in footprint so could take a bigger box comfortably and the height could be reduced by cutting the legs a bit.
Not rushing into anything yet. Any ideas on cost to get half decent cabinets made?
Oh, Ken, from the "measured" data for the 385 on the hilberink site effective driver diameter is 32cm.
Edit - I'd like to try these with a good SS amp before making any further decisions. I'll have to see if I can annoy someone :)
Excellent advice Ken ... agree room size might give issues potentially, yet Marco,s room is pretty small and his speakers are humongous
I believe the Arden was 175 L, check out its specs (HPD version), for what to expect performance wise.
Spot the easy mistake I made in calculating the ports anyone?
I used diameter and not radius in the Pi Rsq calculation.
Well it was early and I was half asleep. :D
A diameter one third of the 32cm piston diameter = 89.3cm sq min area.
Your pair of small twin ports = 19.2cm sq total
Still a long way from ideal.
I can't help on cabinet costs as I always build my own.
You seem to know what your doing and what your goals are, keep us posted with your progress. :)
From Colloms' book "High Performance Loudspeakers", he says that in a well designed system there should be no need for damping the fundamental resonance used for bass O/P reinforcement, but that there is of course a need for it to reduce/eliminate the mid range rear energy from the cone, and which may come out of the port, (which sounds awful even on many professional monitors).
The accepted correction for room reinforcement of bass, is approximately a sigma curve from about 80 Hz sloping down to a figure of -7dB at 20 Hz.
This is the hardest thing to get right IMO because of the real possibility of changing rooms, and having to make new boxes and alignments.
Addendum.
I think I can remember his exact sentence;
"In a well designed system, there should be no need for box filling at fundamental resonance,, but there is of course a need for filling to absorb the mid range energy".
Filling can increase the effective internal volume by up to 40%, (depending on whose figures you validate), and filling the volume is of course useful in lowering the O/P at fundamental resonance to adjust it to suit, but it should not be allowed to move about under drive.
Thanks guys for all the feedback. I shall chew the cud, digest and report back in due course :)
Bit of thread resurrection here :D
Borrowed a signal generator and used it to test my system tonight and the results were most interesting.
I was primarily interested in the bass response of my speakers. (A quick summary so you don't have to read the last 16 pages is that they are Lockwood Academy fitted with 15" Tannoy 385 HPD drivers in a sealed box which is probably much too small to do the Tannoys justice in the bottom end with an internal volume of just 68 litres). I should say I have eased open the crossover panels on the back of the speakers to let them breathe, so no longer sealed cabs really.
By ear at the speaker front, bass response was pretty flat to 43Hz then rolled off gently to about 40Hz from where they fell off a cliff to be all but inaudible by 30Hz.
Better than I expected to be honest but I suppose not fantastic given that an open E string on a bass guitar is 41Hz, I think.
Having said that, maybe it's my hearing that's rolling off sharply below 40Hz.
I have often toyed with building new larger cabinets for the drivers to improve bass performance but looking at this predicted response in a 200L cab from the 44BX site I'm not so sure it's worth doing as I don't seem to be losing that much, maybe 5 or 6 Hz before roll off.
http://www.44bx.com/tannoy/images/HPD_fr.gif
Took a set of measurements with an app on my phone from the listening chair, obviously a lot of variables here but gives an idea of in room response.
Note: This is not a measured 1w@1m thing, it's just a certain position of the volume control.
Notice the suck-out at 55Hz. I take it that's a room mode?
Edit: Horizontal axis is frequency in Hz, vertical axis is db reading using phone app.
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee462/castle48/Lockwoods/Speaker%20Response.png
Interestingly, the drivers were still outputting at 100KHz according to the phone app, I gave up and didn't try anything higher.
Sounded like the drivers were crossing over a smidgeon below 1KHz, does anyone know if this is correct for HPD 385s, seems very low?
sq225917
20-09-2018, 19:16
Your phone microphone won't reach 20kHz nevermind 100kHz, most studio mics don't even reach 25khz
Interestingly, the drivers were still outputting at 100KHz according to the phone app, I gave up and didn't try anything higher.
Sounded like the drivers were crossing over a smidgeon below 1KHz, does anyone know if this is correct for HPD 385s, seems very low?
That sounds about right. But there's no way they are doing anything at 100Khz!
That sounds about right. But there's no way they are doing anything at 100Khz!
I wouldn't know, Eh, what's that? :D
There was something registering on the phone anyway, doesn't matter a stuff I suppose.
Your phone microphone won't reach 20kHz nevermind 100kHz, most studio mics don't even reach 25khz
That's good to know, every day's a school day.
I can say there was db on the screen which disappeared when I stopped the signal though, some sort of phenomen, phonom, pheo... strange thing.
It's really hard to make anything of your measurements but at a guess I'd say your problem is that bass level down around 40hz is at the same level as the 2Khz area when it really should be about 10dB higher give or take for a 'house curve' that will make the majority of recordings sound balanced. Your mid-band is too high in level, in other words.
It's really hard to make anything of your measurements but at a guess I'd say your problem is that bass level down around 40hz is at the same level as the 2Khz area when it really should be about 10dB higher give or take for a 'house curve' that will make the majority of recordings sound balanced. Your mid-band is too high in level, in other words.
I didn't know that either about the bass being typically +10db in room, thanks Macca, maybe a bigger cabinet would be better then.
Don't they have level controls?
Yes but they're only for the top end, improves the tonal balance by reducing treble but then just muddies things up after a point. I've mine linked out at Energy -1, Roll Off 0(flat).
ToTo Man
21-09-2018, 10:46
A +10dB difference between bass and mids is too much IMO if you're aiming for a neutral-ish in-room response. The following curve is a good target to aim for as a starting point IME. I personally I prefer my highs to be less rolled off than this.
https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/gallery/album_253/gallery_36752_253_58081.jpg
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