View Full Version : The mysteries of the Io - or not
lordmortlock
24-04-2016, 07:10
Spent a couple of hours last night setting up my new precious ... Peters Io1.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/lordmortlock/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg (http://s104.photobucket.com/user/lordmortlock/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg.html)
I'd obviously done a lot of reading prior to buying and I'd pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I wouldn't get anything more than a half decent noise out of it without an SUT designed specifically for the 0.05mv output. To my surprise it sang very nicely with my Cinemag 1:40 step up. Lots of gain, even in to my passive pre, good extension top and bottom ... Quite lovely in fact.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/lordmortlock/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsg7qh67ap.jpeg (http://s104.photobucket.com/user/lordmortlock/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsg7qh67ap.jpeg.html)
I'm pretty happy about this, but I don't really understand what's happening. My 'stage is a tube technology MAC which has pretty ordinary levels of gain. I'm actually getting higher output volume than I could ever get with a dynavector 17d3. not what I was expecting at all. Can anyone elaborate? Small words and as few numbers as possible please. It's early and I'm a bit thick with ohms etc. :)
jandl100
24-04-2016, 07:43
I'm jealous. :)
The biggest Bake Off difference I've ever heard was when an Io replaced some very respectable cartridges.
Night and day was no exaggeration for a change.
As for the gain issues ... I've found similar things in the past. A 0.18mV cart that really shouldn't have worked given the system gain structure but in fact was just fine.
But yes, 0.05mV takes that to an extreme!
As to why it sounds louder than a 0.3mV Dyna .... :scratch:
---- lovely looking tt, as well. :thumbsup:
lordmortlock
24-04-2016, 07:48
Cheers Jerry. It's very very good. It's a better cart than the RB1000 is an arm but as the original AN arm was a rebranded rega I figured I'd be ok.
The 17d3 was so weird here. Full volume on the pass clone gave about 85db. I'm at that at 12 o'clock with the io. Bizzaro.
Lovely cartridge - congrats :).
Firebottle
24-04-2016, 09:35
I have been looking for the full output spec of the IO1, but it doesn't give the velocity for the 0.05mV output.
However stick this through your 1:40 step up gives 2mV into your MAC which appears to be very high gain.
Are you also connecting your 17d3 through the same step up?
lordmortlock
24-04-2016, 10:06
No, to be fair the cinemags are new to me, but the 17d3 was running with a rebuilt yves cochet head amp that I have that also puts out plenty with the io, although bass is a bit boomy.
I know I'm comparing apples with oranges but still genuinely surprised at the io output after everything I've read. Set up was straight forward too. It's not half as fussy as the web at large would have you believe.
lordmortlock
24-04-2016, 10:08
Oh and btw Alan do you still want those PCC189 and PCC85? Fire over your uk address and I'll stick them in the post.
I was dumstruck at a bake off when we went from an AN UK SUT (S2 I think it was?) to an AN Japan S6 that Tom owned. There's definitely more to come from it if you feel like spending the money. Insane money, that is:)
jandl100
24-04-2016, 13:11
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/lordmortlock/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg (http://s104.photobucket.com/user/lordmortlock/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg.html)
Damn you, Jake :steam:
You've got me lusting after getting a prettier turntable. :doh:
lordmortlock
25-04-2016, 06:51
Ain't she a beaut? Really straight forward to use too ... About as plug and play as decks get. I'd missed a Lumley branded unit a couple of years ago that emporium were selling and managed to find this one, complete with rb1000, for less money! That was a good day.
There's a good review here. The inception/distribution is quite a nice story.
http://www.claro-audio.co.uk/claro_newsite/blog/clarity-09/hi-fi-world-review-·/
paulf-2007
25-04-2016, 18:55
Hi Jake, are you saying the Io is a bit boomy in the bass. That makes sense if the step up does not amplify enough. Not an Io I have to say but a cart I used with a 1:6 had too much treble but was spot on with a 1:2, cart was homc 2.5mv. Also my Benz wood SL was a bit boomy with the 1:6 but sublime with the 1:15.
lordmortlock
26-04-2016, 21:09
Cheers for that Paul. Just ordered myself an Ortofon stm-72 and an obscure supex sut which, on paper, match the io perfectly. Looking forward to hearing what they do
Spectral Morn
26-04-2016, 22:54
Spent a couple of hours last night setting up my new precious ... Peters Io1.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/lordmortlock/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg (http://s104.photobucket.com/user/lordmortlock/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscnf3h4da.jpeg.html)
I'd obviously done a lot of reading prior to buying and I'd pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I wouldn't get anything more than a half decent noise out of it without an SUT designed specifically for the 0.05mv output. To my surprise it sang very nicely with my Cinemag 1:40 step up. Lots of gain, even in to my passive pre, good extension top and bottom ... Quite lovely in fact.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m192/lordmortlock/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsg7qh67ap.jpeg (http://s104.photobucket.com/user/lordmortlock/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsg7qh67ap.jpeg.html)
I'm pretty happy about this, but I don't really understand what's happening. My 'stage is a tube technology MAC which has pretty ordinary levels of gain. I'm actually getting higher output volume than I could ever get with a dynavector 17d3. not what I was expecting at all. Can anyone elaborate? Small words and as few numbers as possible please. It's early and I'm a bit thick with ohms etc. :)
Very nice turntables.
I've found exactly the same. I went from a MM3 and an IQ3 to an IO2 with a 1:100 SUT (I think) which is supposed to bring the IO output in line with the other carts, but I have to turn the volume dial down from 11 o'clock to 9 o'clock, and I still think the SPL is higher. Bizarre!
Awesome cartridge, enjoy!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wow that's some beautiful Gizmo.
You must have hella better quality Lp's than I do, to play on that..
PaulStewart
10-05-2016, 11:36
Great set up Jake I used the Rega 1000 on the same deck for quite a while. The Io was developed from the Goldfing Excel which was a great cartridge, which I used to use for demoing the Garrard 501. I now have an SME IV.V on mine, with the Koetsu Rosewood, but I want to try an Io on it. As you may know, marketing and development of the Claro T/Ts has been taken over by Art Audio what was called the 09 is here http://www.artaudio.co.uk/?page_id=199
Spectral Morn
10-05-2016, 12:17
Great set up Jake I used the Rega 1000 on the same deck for quite a while. The Io was developed from the Goldfing Excel which was a great cartridge, which I used to use for demoing the Garrard 501. I now have an SME IV.V on mine, with the Koetsu Rosewood, but I want to try an Io on it. As you may know, marketing and development of the Claro T/Ts has been taken over by Art Audio what was called the 09 is here http://www.artaudio.co.uk/?page_id=199
Claro is a lovely turntable.
pure sound
10-05-2016, 14:39
The Io was developed from the Goldfing Excel which was a great cartridge, which I used to use for demoing the Garrard 501.
The Io was around long before the Goldring Excel. It first appeared in about 1979. If anything the Excel took some of the ideas from the Io when launched in the late 80's.
lordmortlock
23-10-2016, 10:05
Great set up Jake I used the Rega 1000 on the same deck for quite a while. The Io was developed from the Goldfing Excel which was a great cartridge, which I used to use for demoing the Garrard 501. I now have an SME IV.V on mine, with the Koetsu Rosewood, but I want to try an Io on it. As you may know, marketing and development of the Claro T/Ts has been taken over by Art Audio what was called the 09 is here http://www.artaudio.co.uk/?page_id=199
The RB1000 has been a good listen and clearly suits the Claro well but I fancy trying something a bit more upmarket to see how much more one can bring out of the io.
Pu7 is the current front runner, especially given that my armboard is the rega three point fixing system. I had wanted to try an AN arm3 but it's proving a bit tricky to get an old rega pillar fixing made up.
Hi Jake.
What's the problem with getting a new pillar to fit the Arm3? Looking at the picture of the deck, I would have thought someone like Speedy Steve could knock one up easily enough?
lordmortlock
23-10-2016, 11:43
I've been talking to Peter at Claro about that possibility actually. He was good enough to mock up a CAD drawing insert to convert to the older rega fixing but it wasn't quite right and I feel bad going back to ask for alterations etc as I know he's really busy. That's left me looking at three point fixing compatible arms and I'm pretty taken with the PU7 after reading up.
Any sense on how it would compare with the Arm three Peter? The prices aren't hugely different now given the recent AN price hike.
Sorry, not heard a PU7 ... always been put off by the looks tbh :eek: ... almost as hideous as the Ikeda :lol:
My other suggestion was going to be a top Origin Live, but I think they are also old rega screw-fit?
However, on the basis of both sound quality and looks, an SME IV would be an excellent choice imo ... assuming the turntable manufacturuer does an SME mounting pillar.
CornishPasty
23-10-2016, 14:15
Re the PU7 talk to Johnnie at AO. He's very obliging and may even loan you something. The PU7 is a fine arm and whilst it might not catch everyone's eye I think it would look pretty good on the Claro.
lordmortlock
23-10-2016, 17:53
Sorry, not heard a PU7 ... always been put off by the looks tbh :eek: ... almost as hideous as the Ikeda :lol:
My other suggestion was going to be a top Origin Live, but I think they are also old rega screw-fit?
However, on the basis of both sound quality and looks, an SME IV would be an excellent choice imo ... assuming the turntable manufacturuer does an SME mounting pillar.
It's not that bad Peter! Prettier than the uniarm at any rate. I quite like the look of the ikeda too btw! Oh dear ...
Speaking of the uniarm ... that could be an option too. Johnnie and I have been speaking by email Ralph so plan to talk tomorrow.
Sorry, Jake ... but ... anyway ...
As you know, there is quite a lot on the web about Io's, with some suggesting it is best in a heavy arm. I think this may be the case for some variants, but the AN Io1 is designed for 'regular', medium effective-mass arms (12-14 gram). Pete at Deco reckons they work in just about anything, but ime if you want to keep the dynamics that the cart is capable of, I'd stick to 9 or 10 inch arms. Even though I am not a cable fetishist, in this case I'd also recommend silver cabling right through to your SUT. I had both the AN Arm One (copper) and the Arm Three (silver). With regular cartridges, there was no discernable difference, but with the Io1 it was really noticable ... maybe due to its silver coils, low output, low impedance? TBH, I'm still not sure why you are considering anything other than the Arm Three .. it'd be your last ever tonearm ... and it comes in exact-matching silver to your TT. I'd still be there if I hadn't fallen for the deviant charms of the A95 SPU :D
RothwellAudio
24-10-2016, 11:20
I know this thread was started a while ago but I thought it was worth chipping in.
Audio Note's IO cartridges have exceptionally low outputs by modern standards and require a step-up transformer with a higher than usual turns ratio. 1:100 would seem like about right to get the cartridge up to typical MM levels but such high turns ratios can result in serious compromises to the performance because you have to either put a vast number of turns on the secondary (which increases the resistance and capacitance) or put very few turns on the primary (which reduces the primary inductance) - both bad things. I would advise staying away from such a high ratio.
1:40 would be about right in my opinion. The voltage step-up gives you about 2mV which is plenty enough for most MM phonostges and the performance compromises associated with extremely high turns ratios are mostly avoided.
... a cart I used with a 1:6 had too much treble but was spot on with a 1:2, cart was homc 2.5mv.
High output moving coils have a much higher source impedance than low output moving coils. It's possible to lift their outputs slightly but you need a very low turns ratio. 1:2 or 1:3 is about as high as you should go (generally).
I went from a MM3 and an IQ3 to an IO2 with a 1:100 SUT (I think) which is supposed to bring the IO output in line with the other carts, but I have to turn the volume dial down from 11 o'clock to 9 o'clock
Yes, 1:100 is an exceptionally high ratio - more than you really need and more than I would recommend.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2016, 13:03
Should it be of interest to any Io owners... I can build head amps to suit the low output of these cartridges.
RothwellAudio
24-10-2016, 15:14
Should it be of interest to any Io owners... I can build head amps to suit the low output of these cartridges.
Yes, getting sufficient gain from an active head amp is perfectly feasible but wouldn't it be challenging to get the signal-to-noise ratio comparable to a transformer given the extremely low output?
Yes, getting sufficient gain from an active head amp is perfectly feasible but wouldn't it be challenging to get the signal-to-noise ratio comparable to a transformer given the extremely low output?
Out of interest, what would the signal to noise ratio be for the 1:40 SUT you quote?
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2016, 15:25
Yes, getting sufficient gain from an active head amp is perfectly feasible but wouldn't it be challenging to get the signal-to-noise ratio comparable to a transformer given the extremely low output?
Of course a transformer will win in terms of signal to noise ratio but an active step up can be made quiet enough for it to not be an issue in practice. The high turns ratio needed for such a low output cartridge means an SUT is likely to be more compromised than is usual.
At the moment I'm using an MC with an output of 90uV (at 5cm/s) and need to set the gain of my phonostage to 64dB, and even that is not quite high enough (typical volume level setting between 1 and 2 o'clock)
So with an MC producing only 50uV, one is going to need a gain of ~70dB. The ideal signal to noise ratio would then be something like 120dB.
RothwellAudio
24-10-2016, 16:02
Yes, I usually advise people to go for the lowest turns ratio compatible with getting sufficient voltage into the mm phonostage. I've had a 1:100 transformer here in the workshop and found it to be very poor - and it wasn't a cheap item.
And yes, I was pleasantly surprised when I designed my Headspace mc headamp. I found I could get the signal-to-noise ratio close enough to a transformer so that the transistor hiss was well below vinyl's surface noise.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/headspace_mc_headamp.html
Still, the Io's output is an order of magnitude lower than most low output MCs. They're very tough cartridges to amplify.
Arkless Electronics
24-10-2016, 16:45
My MC only hybrid MC stage has about 70dB gain and gives very quiet backgrounds with my Technics EPC-300MC cartridge, which has only 0.1mV output. I'm sure it would be quiet enough for even the Io. Note I don't say silent.. just quiet enough so that, as Andrew says above, the record surface noise etc will render the noise unnoticeable in practice. I can make something even quieter if required but we are getting down to the limits of what the laws of physics decree possible.
lordmortlock
24-10-2016, 17:04
Sorry, Jake ... but ... anyway ...
As you know, there is quite a lot on the web about Io's, with some suggesting it is best in a heavy arm. I think this may be the case for some variants, but the AN Io1 is designed for 'regular', medium effective-mass arms (12-14 gram). Pete at Deco reckons they work in just about anything, but ime if you want to keep the dynamics that the cart is capable of, I'd stick to 9 or 10 inch arms. Even though I am not a cable fetishist, in this case I'd also recommend silver cabling right through to your SUT. I had both the AN Arm One (copper) and the Arm Three (silver). With regular cartridges, there was no discernable difference, but with the Io1 it was really noticable ... maybe due to its silver coils, low output, low impedance? TBH, I'm still not sure why you are considering anything other than the Arm Three .. it'd be your last ever tonearm ... and it comes in exact-matching silver to your TT. I'd still be there if I hadn't fallen for the deviant charms of the A95 SPU :D
I know I know ... perhaps I should just man up and get this armboard sorted so that I can use the Arm Three. Going right the way through the pu7 with silver to phono stage gets silly costly and it would be good to carry though, especially as the vinyl one is kondo silver too. :D
You mentioned speedy Steve. Is he a fabricator Peter?
http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?83-Magna-Audio
He did a custom-mounting plate for me ... cracking job at a sensible price :thumbsup:
lordmortlock
24-10-2016, 17:34
Perfect, Thanks Peter. I'll give him a shout
He has a wonderful 5-way diy horn system ... became a forum legend when he sawed the upper-bass horns in half to get them through a door to exhibit at Scalford :eek:
Yes, I usually advise people to go for the lowest turns ratio compatible with getting sufficient voltage into the mm phonostage. I've had a 1:100 transformer here in the workshop and found it to be very poor - and it wasn't a cheap item.
And yes, I was pleasantly surprised when I designed my Headspace mc headamp. I found I could get the signal-to-noise ratio close enough to a transformer so that the transistor hiss was well below vinyl's surface noise.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/headspace_mc_headamp.html
Still, the Io's output is an order of magnitude lower than most low output MCs. They're very tough cartridges to amplify.
Hi Andrew,
Your dedicated room in the trade section is now ready for use. See here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?111-Rothwell-Audio
Therefore, please populate it, ASAP, by starting a thread there on any topic you wish. Don't leave the room empty, as it looks bad. Cheers and good luck! :cool:
Marco.
lordmortlock
26-10-2016, 19:47
He has a wonderful 5-way diy horn system ... became a forum legend when he sawed the upper-bass horns in half to get them through a door to exhibit at Scalford :eek:
I remember that! That was one crazy system
RothwellAudio
27-10-2016, 09:18
Hi Andrew,
Your dedicated room in the trade section is now ready for use. See here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?111-Rothwell-Audio
Therefore, please populate it, ASAP, by starting a thread there on any topic you wish. Don't leave the room empty, as it looks bad. Cheers and good luck! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco
I've started a thread about compiling a step-up transformer database.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?47347-mc-step-up-transformer-database
Maybe with the help of the forum a useful resource can be created.
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