View Full Version : I've always said that people were discerning...
...when they simply let their ears, and nothing else, decide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/8351921.stm
Traditionalists, enjoy! :)
Marco.
P.S I wonder what would happen if a truly 'top-spec' iPod set-up (whatever that is) and an identically priced small separates system were used instead?
Hahaha, you bet ! An iPod dock against a (modest) hifi system... no surprise here. :)
(btw: 2 out of 10 people seem deaf...)
On the other hand, when I go on holidays (with a car full of necessary things) I have a place for a Dock, but I couldn't bring a whole system, whatever its price.
anthonyTD
11-11-2009, 11:12
...when they simply let their ears, and nothing else, decide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/working_lunch/8351921.stm
Traditionalists, enjoy! :)
Marco.
P.S I wonder what would happen if a truly 'top-spec' iPod set-up (whatever that is) and an identically priced small separates system were used instead?
good test!
they should have had some valve stuff in there of course but being shut in a cardboard box all day may have resulted in some flames, so best not.:lolsign:
A...
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 11:24
Maybe there is hope....? :) A classic Hi-Fi Experience/Markets system from the mid 80's.
Regards D S D L
Maybe there is hope....?
I've always said that there was, Neil :)
If most people genuinely into music, who are not simply just 'gadget freaks', had that test (or indeed a more optimally set-up blind one) demonstrated to them in their lounge at home, and they could live with the separates system, aesthetically, I guarantee that the majority of them would opt for it over the iPod.
Why?
Because, as the test showed, it makes music sound better - pure and simple!!
Ok, so the people who were asked weren't audiophiles, and so weren't able to eloquently express why they preferred system 'B', which is why they came up with some pretty meaningless expressions for why they considered the sound to be better.
*BUT* the crucial thing was that they heard a difference, and that difference is precisely what would make them buy a 'proper' hi-fi system over any iPod-based set-up, providing as I said, that the looks and the 'facilities' of an iPod are not amongst their main priorities.
Basically, it's a simple matter of education. You only know when something is better when you hear it for yourself, so the answer is to give people the opportunity to do just that and let their ears decide...
I've often thought of starting up a business doing just that - 'spreading the word' for hi-fi, if you like, by offering an incentive-based mobile demonstration service and taking orders for equipment based on the results I achieve in people's homes ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 11:46
That test goes without saying really but at the end of the day any clapped out old hifi would sound better than a piece of shit of an MP-3 player..But it's an industry & the MP-3 is the best way honest.
Not!
pure sound
11-11-2009, 12:07
Although sound quality should be the deciding factor, convenience or neatness usually is.
Even having heard the difference I suspect many of those people would still choose an Ipod & Dock with crappy inbuilt speakers.
Possibly, Guy. That is I why I stated the provisos in my last post above :)
My view though is that many people, once smitten by how much better their favourite music sounds, would abandon their convenience and neatness principles and find some way of accommodating a better hi-fi system. The video ably demonstrated that 'Joe public' is perfectly capable of discerning a better sound - you don't need 'golden ears'.
Like I said, it's a matter of education. Lots of people just *think* that they want neatness and convenience because that's what the mainstream retail outlets sell in terms of product, and it's easy and fuss-free to buy.
However, if it were demonstrated to them in their own home, that a 'proper' separates hi-fi system, which they were willing to accommodate aesthetically, reproduced their favourite music more enjoyably, and it came within their available budget, I'm convinced that people would go for it.
It's a matter of doing the leg work and getting the message out there to the people - risky and potentially costly, I know, but I'm convinced that it would be a viable business proposition.
I've already got some ideas as to how it would work ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 12:32
Possibly, Guy. That is I why I stated the provisos in my last post above :)
My view though is that many people, once smitten by how much better their favourite music sounds, would abandon their convenience and neatness principles and find some way of accommodating a better hi-fi system.
Like I said, it's a matter of education. Lots of people just 'think' they want neatness and convenience because that's what the mainstream retail outlets sell in terms of product, and it easy and fuss-free to buy.
However, if it were demonstrated to them in their own home, that a 'proper' hi-fi system, which they were willing to accommodate aesthetically, reproduced their favourite music more enjoyably, and it came within their available budget, I'm convinced that people would go for it.
It's a matter of doing the leg work and getting the message out there to the people - risky and potentially costly, I know, but I'm convinced that it equates to a viable business proposition.
I've already got some ideas as to how it would work ;)
Marco.
25 years of experience in the trade doing exactly what you propose to do would imhe say you might be right in 1% of cases (if your population demographic was big enough that would be fine), but for the most part, your success would only be among those already into music and the idea of quality audio reproduction. I have seen/been involved in moments like that and still they buy a micro or the wife says no :doh::( I just don't understand why they ignore/walk away from that kind of magic, but they do.
The biggest issue is speakers (ugly black boxes is not an issue anymore, even size can be got round to an extent), to create a realistic experience for the matching size of room they may need to be big...then there is the issue of modern spartan room acoustics :doh::doh::doh::doh::(
You're missing the point Neil... :)
If it's already been agreed that both partners are willing to accommodate the separates system (speakers included) in their lounge, they can afford it and agree that it sonically outperforms their iPod-based set-up, and they don't really need the 'facilities' of the iPod-based system, as they're just into enjoying music, then why wouldn't they buy it? The shops are still selling plenty of CDs!
People often buy new technology out of ignorance just because it appears to be the 'latest thing' (after being brainwashed by what's written in magazines or shown on TV, etc) not because it's necessarily what they really want.
Of course, one has to find the right customers in the first place, but I believe that they're out there - and out there in significant numbers. They just don't know it yet! What was demonstrated in the video is just the tip of the iceberg.
Marco.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 12:57
Although sound quality should be the deciding factor, convenience or neatness usually is.
I've been working on convenience/neatness without hitting the bank for some time now. There is a right & wrong way to do this..I for one have come to the reality that all the money i have spent on very expensive gear over the years has left me with egg on my face.
That's because you've been unlucky, Andre, and unfortunately made some bad buys. It doesn't have to be that way.
If you heard Steve's system or mine you'd not think that we've wasted any money on it, I can assure you ;)
Others here I'm sure would agree in reference to their systems, too. It's a matter of knowing the right equipment to buy, getting it at the right price, and most importantly, how to assemble it, synergistically into a system which plays music the way you want it to.
Only rarely does that process work if your sole source of buying equipment is on Ebay...
Marco.
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 13:25
You're missing the point Neil... :)
If it's already been agreed that both partners are willing to accommodate the separates system (speakers included) in their lounge, they can afford it and agree that it sonically outperforms their iPod-based set-up, and they don't really need the 'facilities' of the iPod-based system as they're just into enjoying music, then why wouldn't they buy it? The shops are still selling plenty of CDs!
People often buy new technology out of ignorance just because it appears to be the 'latest thing', not because it's necessarily what they really want.
Of course, one has to find the right customers in the first place, but I believe that they're out there - and out there in significant numbers. They just don't know it yet! What was demonstrated in the video is just the tip of the iceberg.
Marco.
I agree that they do exist, but finding them, thats the trick.
Problem is these type of buyers don't read the audio/video mags, they don't frequent forums. The mainstream mags and press don't feature those types of articles very often. It would take a massive, consistent and sustained effort to educate people involving all the press and media. This would cost a small fortune and require unity.
One of the biggest issues/problems is the so called experts in the media peddling lies regularly...Dab's better than FM, theres no difference in non compressed digital audio to compressed etc, etc.
We would need the likes of the gadget show to do quality audio reviews regularly (last time was 5 years ago..the Linn test) and get the entire audio industry to form one body to promote quality sound at many price points..petty politics would have to be abandoned. Sadly I can't see that happening can you ?
Quality audio must once again become something to aspire to...something it hasn't been since the late 60's early 70's.
Regards D S D L
We would need the likes of the gadget show to do quality audio reviews regularly (last time was 5 years ago..the Linn test) and get the entire audio industry to form one body to promote quality sound at many price points..petty politics would have to be abandoned. Sadly I can't see that happening can you ?
No. But I'm not talking about fundamentally changing the industry (although I'd love to), I'm talking about an idea to run a viable hi-fi business :)
Personally, I don't think that selling hi-fi equipment soley from a dealer's premises works anymore, or even on-line, (few people make any real money at it that way), and it's because you're relying on the punters finding you, rather than going out and finding the punters ;)
More later after lunch...
Marco.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 13:41
That's because you've been unlucky, Andre, and unfortunately made some bad buys. It doesn't have to be that way.
If you heard Steve's system or mine you'd not think that we've wasted any money on it, I can assure you ;)
Others here I'm sure would agree in reference to their systems, too. It's a matter of knowing the right equipment to buy, getting it at the right price, and most importantly, how to assemble it, synergistically into a system which plays music the way you want it to.
Only rarely does that process work if your sole source of buying equipment is on Ebay...
Marco.
Marco
I was most active buying hifi donkies years before E-Bay came around, buying top notch (supposidly) such as Naim 250/32/HICAP, Exposure VI/VII/VIII, Sondek with Tik Toks etc etc clearly rubbish these days..E-Bays really for the vintage fettish, have no real intensions in firing them up..I for one refuse to go down the road yourself & steve are travelling, it's a total waste of money IMHO, but in your view not so..
I'm very happy with the FLAC front end, don't give two hoots if it's not a snobbery system or a system of such, certainly sound better than half the rubbish you hear at hi-fi shows from major companies..
So you see you have the wrong impression of me.I for one don't see the justification in buying an amplifier at xxx thousands of pound. Yes you do need a good system to portray the emotion within music but i honestly find buying music more of intresting than actual hi-fi..The Hi-Fi hobby seems to get in the way of what people buy stereo's for in the first place, they are more self obsessed with the hifi components.
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 13:51
Marco
I was most active buying hifi donkies years before E-Bay came around, buying top notch (supposidly) such as Naim 250/32/HICAP, Exposure VI/VII/VIII, Sondek with Tik Toks etc etc clearly rubbish these days..E-Bays really for the vintage fettish, have no real intensions in firing them up..I for one refuse to go down the road yourself & steve are travelling, it's a total waste of money IMHO, but in your view not so..
I'm very happy with the FLAC front end, don't give two hoots if it's not a snobbery system or a system of such, certainly sound better than half the rubbish you hear at hi-fi shows from major companies..
So you see you have the wrong impression of me.I for one don't see the justification in buying an amplifier at xxx thousands of pound. Yes you do need a good system to portray the emotion within music but i honestly find buying music more of intresting than actual hi-fi..The Hi-Fi hobby seems to get in the way of what people buy stereo's for in the first place, they are more self obsessed with the hifi components.
In many cases that is very true. Its about the music first and foremost imho, but if folks want to make it about the gear too then fair enough. I suspect there are very few who just buy audio to look at like modern art.
Regards D S D L
alfie2902
11-11-2009, 14:07
Ipod accessory?
http://www.fat-man.co.uk/docs/product_07/iTube_Mothership.shtml
Ipod accessory?
http://www.fat-man.co.uk/docs/product_07/iTube_Mothership.shtml
OOoohhh - that looks gorgeous - any idea how much?
I used to advise friends on what to buy in Hi-Fi but I don't any longer. Neil is right: you can demonstrate to people incredible sound quality and they will gasp and say things like "I never knew you could get such sound". But once they have decided to buy they seem to flock to Currys/Richer/whatever and end up with a one-brand micro system because it's easier to use and won't look out of place (i.e. the speakers can be hidden).
There is a decision to be made about how much people are prepared to stop the TV being the dominant focus in the room and making it the hi-fi system (or even both). So many friends of mine balk at it and I cannot understand why. It doesn't seem to be a money thing - after all, many people spend a small fortune on flat screen TVs these days - but more of a resistance to allowing music to dominate rather than AV.
As I said, I'm happy playing my system to friends but if they want buying advice I send them to the local dealer in the hope that they might actually go there. In my entire life I only have three friends who are seriously into music and hi-fi. None of them listen to classical music. Thank goodness for AoS and like-minded people to talk to!
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 17:25
OOoohhh - that looks gorgeous - any idea how much?
Alex:
I had a fatman i tube amp last year as an headphone amp, was a kinda well made except the piano black end cheeks look stupid & were not piano blacked inside in which you could see around the edge, the volume knob was plastic chromed, the engraved fatman on the front looked really childish & the transformer cover was also ugly. The headphone output sounded flat as a fart & to top it off it had an annoying meter tube..Maybe the original Dared manufactured one was better i dunno.
Rare Bird
11-11-2009, 17:27
One thing you all are failing to realise is that people just don't have money to spend on over priced hifi, if they can get something cheaper they will...People with loads of money to waste might snigger at this statement but it's to be expected.
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 17:38
Alex:
I had a fatman i tube amp last year as an headphone amp, was a kinda well made except the piano black end cheeks look stupid & were not piano blacked inside in which you could see around the edge, the volume knob was plastic chromed, the engraved fatman on the front looked really childish & the transformer cover was also ugly. The headphone output sounded flat as a fart & to top it off it had an annoying meter tube..Maybe the original Dared manufactured one was better i dunno.
Yes the dared one was much better...the MP5 was a usb/valve/dac/hybrid valve-pre solid state amplifier integrated-headphone amp. Its sins were all of omission. When Dared deleted from their product list and then started to cross sell similar items under the FatMan brand it all went to pot IMHO.
The Fatman version, is a doc amp only the Usb Dac section removed. However Andre is right about build quality, it is an exercise in smoke and mirrors. It pretends to be made out of some quality materials, but isn't. However it is reliable enough..or at least the Dared MP5 is/was.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 17:42
One thing you all are failing to realise is that people just don't have money to spend on over priced hifi, if they can get something cheaper they will...People with loads of money to waste might snigger at this statement but it's to be expected.
Your right, but it is possible to put a very high quality set up together for under £1000 and much better say with £3000 to £4000. Many don't blink twice to spend that on a kitchen, furniture etc.
Regards D S D L
Or a home cinema system ;)
Why are movies/TV often prioritised over music, in terms of spending, by 'Joe public'? :scratch:
Surely there are as many music lovers out there as there are movie lovers?
Like Martin said, some people wouldn't blink when spending four-figures on a huge plasma screen, so if they can afford that then they afford to spend the same money on hi-fi.
It's not always a money thing.
Marco.
P.S Andre, I'll came back to you later regarding your earlier post.
Spectral Morn
11-11-2009, 17:52
Or a home cinema system ;)
Why are movies/TV often prioritised over music by 'Joe public'? :scratch:
Like Martin said, some people wouldn't blink when spending four-figures on a huge plasma screen, so if they can afford that then they afford to spend the same money on hi-fi.
It's not always a money thing.
Marco.
P.S Andre, I'll came back to you later regarding your earlier post.
I think that you would struggle to spend serious money on a large flat panel TV. when pioneer pulled out of the market it left really only Sony and Loewe offering dearish screens. Panasonic prices have fallen a lot recently.
I haven't sold a TV in just over a year and a bit so Hamish will have to confirm what the most expensive screen is now. For serious money screen and projector is where you need to be at...skys the limit there.
Regards D S D L
Here's another link on similar event a couple of years back : http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120044692027492991-Po6L667z7U6W9ZfTfXBmeCKlV80_20080214.html
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 15:40
Your right, but it is possible to put a very high quality set up together for under £1000 and much better say with £3000 to £4000. Many don't blink twice to spend that on a kitchen, furniture etc.
Regards D S D L
Hi Neil
£1000.00 is also a hell of a lot of money to spend in the real world...
Yes, matey, but the point is they seem to be able to afford to spend it on other things! :)
So it's not always about lack of money, but rather different priorities...
It's the same as folk who moan on about not being able to afford to buy decent, fresh (home-cooked) food for their kids (shoving them full of horrible junk food instead), and yet they can 'afford' to go down the pub every night, smoke 20 fags a day, buy scratch cards, go to bingo, etc, etc!!
Logic? I don't see any whatsoever :mental:
Marco.
Steve Toy
12-11-2009, 16:16
Good hi-fi is there for those who will appreciate it ahead of those who can afford to spend a fortune.
I know a certain young gentleman who is about to acquire the means to one of the most musically satisfying systems in the UK. It won't be costing him a mint but, with his permission, I'd send anyone there looking for a point of reference, especially Jerry Jandl100.
Jerry, if you had going on what Hamish is about to have in your system you'd never box-swap ever again.
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 16:18
Yes, matey, but the point is they seem to be able to afford to spend it on other things! :)
So it's not always about lack of money, but rather different priorities...
It's the same as folk who moan on about not being able to afford to buy decent, fresh (home-cooked) food for their kids (shoving them full of horrible junk food instead), and yet they can 'afford' to go down the pub every night, smoke 20 fags a day, buy scratch cards, go to bingo, etc, etc!!
Logic? I don't see any whatsoever :mental:
Marco.
I understand but you may also not realise that very few people are actually intrested in specialised hi-fi these days..I will argue to the death that the majority of specialised equipment these days is over rated rubbish, i loose count the amount of times i've heard more pleasing results from well selected budget gear compared to high end gear.Too much Kiddery, too much press brainwash bullshit & too much dealer crap.
Things get taken too far in this hobby & people fall for it/gloat about it..Thing is you can never get out of the hobby once your deep into it even if you tried, you have aspects such as what would for members think of you, what would the jones say..i could i ever get over the embaressment if i did back out...Who give two shits..The day hifi as a specialised hobbie dies it's death completely people may just for once wake up.
There is absolutly no need to spend the stupid money people spend on hifi.
Marco, this is not a stab but you remove half the Mana platforms from under your deck & you will hear absolutly no difference in sound what so ever.
There is absolutly no need to spend the stupid money people spend on hifi.
Andre, there's no need for spending stupid money on cars either. Or on sci-fi films or on prog-rock albums or whatever.
That's how the hobbies seem to others : spending stupid money.
But I share your opinion about the hype of a lot of over-rated hifi. I simply don't think it applies for most people in this forum.
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 17:11
Demitri I don't spend stupid money on prog rock albums one of the reasons i moved to CD, won't pay for the albums they cost about £1.50 each when they came out, there worth a fraction of that, but o no collectors magazines tell us they are worth x amount of pounds, so that shall be it!.If i won the lotto it wouldnt be a ferrari it would be an old car & thats a promise, i'd still walk around like a tramp because designer cloths are another stupid thing..The complete world is a mass of consumer trickery, the whole world is full of competition, people trying to impress people, trying to sell sand to the arabs.But people seem to need expensive things to survive, they can't breath without a name tag stamped on their products, they need to tell people what they have knowing that people know their is a price tag attached to own it ..Far east circuit board in a flashy box complete with a name tag seems to make a hell of a difference to their lives for some reason.
I can bind on all day about this, i can bind on about certain companies that make a sucess out of clever marketing techniques. I just don't like how people & the world alike are run/controlled.
You talk a lot of s---e sometimes,Andre.
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 18:10
true Shit Dave..People choose to ignore.
;)
You talk a lot of s---e sometimes,Andre.
true Shit Dave..People choose to ignore.
;)
How did that get censored.
It should be 'sense',not shite.
:lol:
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 18:21
:flasher:
:lolsign:
Anyway,when are you standing for parliament.
As long as you didn't ban me for listening to post '73 music on ma rubber band deck,I'd vote for ye.
:cool:
Rare Bird
12-11-2009, 18:29
Andr'e for P.M
Votes on a postcard
:eyebrows:
Aye, vote for Andre! :mex:
Marco, this is not a stab but you remove half the Mana platforms from under your deck & you will hear absolutly no difference in sound what so ever.
Best not go there, matey. If you ever come to visit (and incidentally, you're most welcome), we'll test that theory... I already know the outcome ;)
Marco.
Best not go there, matey. If you ever come to visit (and incidentally, you're most welcome), we'll test that theory... I already know the outcome ;).
All the equipment crashes to the floor?
Aye, that's one of the things that happens!! :lolsign:
Marco.
But people seem to need expensive things to survive, they can't breath without a name tag stamped on their products, they need to tell people what they have knowing that people know their is a price tag attached to own it ..Far east circuit board in a flashy box complete with a name tag seems to make a hell of a difference to their lives for some reason.
Not all expensive equipment is about brand or hiding Chinese made circuit boards between wooden end cheeks rolled on the thighs of handmaidens or whatever. As far as brand goes, the only one any person visiting my system is likely to recognise is Technics - having an association with medium quality ghetto blasters. Hmm, there goes my credibility.
Much of my equipment is supremely well made American kit. It wasn't cheap, but much of what's inside is high quality, hand-built circuits inside sturdy casework, made in small cottage industry companies who need to generate a profit to pay their salaries and keep some back for R&D. Not to mention the eye-watering cost of passing CE to sell into the European market, marketing costs, shipping and distribution/dealer mark-ups. You might be surprised to know that no-one is making a mint, the proof of which is the many small companies going to the wall unless they diversify into (spit) AV. Dealers even more so. They can't survive on selling the kind of kit that you seem to think is making them laugh all the way to the bank. On the contrary, the hi-fi industry is becoming marginalised and few companies can be accused of making excessive profit. Bose excepted, of course.
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 00:38
As you mentioned USA i know your taking the piss..Take away the importers/Distributers fee, USA wage structure, Expoting design for construction to far east & back costing, Brand names overheads..Massive rag salery etc etc, you have a cheap as chips product that sounds typically USA sounding what u got??
;)
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 00:42
Best not go there, matey. If you ever come to visit (and incidentally, you're most welcome), we'll test that theory... I already know the outcome ;)
Marco.
No falling out but i've clearly said before MANA were bollox..You don't have LINN/NAIM so why even still entertain em? Something you forgot from the flat earth mags or summert??
You can say what you like dude about Mana but that doesn't make it a fact... You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
13-11-2009, 03:17
Either Andre is spoiling for an argument or he just doesn't get what this place is about yet.
Mana is not some symbolic clinging onto the last bastion of flat earthdom. It actually works. It may be replaced by something even more effective but that's another matter.
I suspect that Andre had a few sherbets last night... :eyebrows:
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
13-11-2009, 09:06
I think the other factors in the choices "normal" people make when spending substantial amounts of money are both the "aspirational" and the "show off" values.
The sheeple have been indoctrinated to believe that they will only have arrived in society when they posess branded products A, B and C with 2 perfect children called Tarquin and Olivia who get into the local Roman Catholic school even if "we don't go to church that often". How do you show-off your rather wonderfully sounding but not B&O/Sony/whatever sound system when your neighbor would much rather ask about your new BMW in the drive ? The chattering classes / champagne socialists are not just in Islington anymore...
Over my 40+ years I am now convinced I have made the mistake of believing that other people think at least a little like me (and others I respect/admire) - but this is bollocks - most people are not independent of thought, have no background understanding of anything remotely scientific and are actually 100% in the grasp of the mainstream media and the advertising industries.
Cynic, moi ?
Over my 40+ years I am now convinced I have made the mistake of believing that other people think at least a little like me (and others I respect/admire) - but this is bollocks - most people are not independent of thought, have no background understanding of anything remotely scientific and are actually 100% in the grasp of the mainstream media and the advertising industries.
Great post, Peter - I completely agree (especially with the "independent of thought" bit)!!
A 'high-end' hi-fi system without the requisite badge considered as de rigueur by the aspiring middle-classes (they rarely get there though, as they're usually too vulgar) has zero cachet when compared with a BMW, or such like, parked on the driveway.
I just cannot relate to the sheep-like mentality you refer to either; it's a completely alien thought process for me. I have never 'gone with the herd' in my life - if fact, I usually seek to do the exact opposite.
I care not a jot about trying to 'impress' people - I just do my thing and get on with life; people take me as they find me, and too bad of they don't like it. I'm in a position where I'm completely content and comfortable with my life.
As for the "chattering classes" and showing off to your neighbours; don't get me started on that! That's one of the main reasons why we moved from a 'posh' part of Glasgow to North Wales: to escape from the 'keeping up with the Jones'' idiots :mental:
Anyway, rant over... For now! :eyebrows:
Marco.
you have a cheap as chips product that sounds typically USA sounding what u got??
You can see in my footer. Take the Pass preamp: superb internal construction, huge power supply, incredibly neutral and detailed sound quality. Nelson Pass is world renowned as a designer. Take the Ayre player: again, fantastic construction quality, leading edge MP filters and the best player I've ever heard bar none. Lots of industry plaudits too, including Stereophile A+ recommendation. What on Earth is typically USA sounding?
Knowing Andre's views on this from old, which are completely immovable, I think you guys are destined to strongly disagree, so it's probably best just to 'agree to disagree' and move on :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 10:43
Typical USA sounding eamples Krell, Wadia..
Well, that'll be nothing that Martin uses then... ;)
Marco.
A 'high-end' hi-fi system without the requisite badge considered as de rigueur by the aspiring middle-classes (they rarely get there though, as they're usually too vulgar) has zero cachet
Not hi-fi any more. It's got to be AV with a brand like Pioneer to impress them.
when compared with a BMW, or such like, parked on the driveway
Watch it, I have a nice BMW parked outside :)
However, when I buy a new car with my own hard-earned cash, believe me I test all the brands and buy the one that drives best. I couldn't give a monkeys what the Audi- and Mercedes- owning neighbours (really) think.
Not hi-fi any more. It's got to be AV with a brand like Pioneer to impress them.
Do you have inside information on this? :lol: ;)
As for the BMW thing, enjoy it mate - I'm sure you've worked hard for it!
I used to lease all sorts of 'executive class' cars through my business when I was hard at it driving hundreds of miles a week all over the country, making my way in life. Buying them outright wasn't a smart move at the time in terms of my self-employed tax status.
These days, I take things much easier (semi-retired to be honest, at 44) and potter around the country lanes in a second-hand Mercedes. It does the job nicely..... :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
13-11-2009, 11:36
We have had this blanket condemnation of all things American before. Rather silly really.
We have had this blanket condemnation of all things American before. Rather silly really.
No, keep it going - it might kill the prices on ebay, and I can pick up a cheap McIntosh valve amp... ;)
Well, the opposite must be true then, everything made in Britain is fantastic - the prices on ebay would certainly have you think so! :lol:
I think that perhaps Andre needs to hide his (in some respects unfair) bias against American and Jap gear a little better than he's managing at the moment... ;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
13-11-2009, 14:46
OK, lets name some Jap and American hi-fi we actually like. I'll begin:
Accuphase (CD players)
Pioneer (older amps and tuners)
Sony (CD players and tuners)
Technics (turntables)
Marantz (CD players and amps)
Spectral (amplification)
Bel Canto (CD players, DACs, amplifiers)
The Grand Wazoo
13-11-2009, 15:09
Hahaha,
My entire system except TT & arm are either Japanese or American / Canadian - Koetsu / Accuphase / ARC / Levinson / Bent Audio / Mirage
So I wonder what Andre's ......... prog - nosis would be on that then?
OK, lets name some Jap and American hi-fi we actually like.
Nakamichi, Denon, Sony (TVs), Marantz, Bel Canto, Lavry, SlimDevices (bought by Logitech), PS Audio, Audio Technica, Yamaha, Grado, Sherwood Newcastle, Accuphase, AirTight, Wadia, TEAC, Rotel, Luxman, Jolida... the list is too long, really.
Stax (headphone systems)
Magnum Dynalab (tuners)
anthonyTD
13-11-2009, 15:30
i have not one piece of japanese or american equipment in my system!
how's that andre :eyebrows::)
A...
Yesh you have, boyo... The transport mechanism in your Eikos CD player was 'stolen' from a Pioneer, and you've got an Audio Technica cartridge fitted to your Rock!! :ner: :ner: :ner:
:lolsign:
Marco.
anthonyTD
13-11-2009, 16:36
bugger!!!:doh:
A...
My system's power amp keeps up the British end. Otherwise it's all American/Japanese/Taiwanese.
Special brands for me: Ayre, Pass Labs, PS Audio, Wilson, Pioneer Elite, Teac Esoteric, Luxman, Usher. A tear for Apogee.
Brand suffering the worst downfall in quality: Infinity.
Just worst brand: Bose
Just the headphones, I have 3 US (Portapro+Grado+Shure) and 6 Jap (5 AudioTechnicas and my 30-years-old Yamaha) but only 2 EU (Senns)...
Yes, matey, but the point is they seem to be able to afford to spend it on other things! :)
So it's not always about lack of money, but rather different priorities...
It's the same as folk who moan on about not being able to afford to buy decent, fresh (home-cooked) food for their kids (shoving them full of horrible junk food instead), and yet they can 'afford' to go down the pub every night, smoke 20 fags a day, buy scratch cards, go to bingo, etc, etc!!
Logic? I don't see any whatsoever :mental:
Marco.
Or people who claim they're unable to pay off loans, whilst wandering around chatting on their brand new iphones.
Everywhere I turn it seems every teenager has one, or am I just getting old? :scratch:
Or people who claim they're unable to pay off loans, whilst wandering around chatting on their brand new iphones.
Everywhere I turn it seems every teenager has one, or am I just getting old? :scratch:
Well, you're not getting young, so you must be getting old.
Rare Bird
13-11-2009, 22:43
O god you lot have a great old time while i've been down at the boozer tasting the good old brew!!
If most people genuinely into music that are not simply just 'gadget freaks' had that test (or indeed a more optimally set-up blind one) demonstrated to them in their lounge at home, and they could live with the separates system, aesthetically, I guarantee that the majority of them would opt for it over the iPod.
Why?
Because, as the test showed, it makes music sound better - pure and simple!!
Good thread this Marco. It's digressed a bit, but good thread.
I've been off the site for a while due to 'life' getting in the way so i didn't see it when it started.
Re the quote above; I see your point but there are a few caveats in there aren't there? For me, people genuinely into music will have a system other than an ipod/mp3 dock system, but I don't think lot of people are 'genuinely' into music in the way that say us lot on here are. People, ok younger people, nowadays consume music, like it's fast food. It's just there isn't it, wherever you go, blaring distortedly out of mobile phones and shops. There is no emotional connection to it.
I think people need to be more informed about what a system can do for them. When I was younger and started listening to music, I used my Dad's old music centre, one of those single unit things about 2ft wide with a record player, a cassette player and a radio. The key for me though was that I had a cousin a few years older than me and he had a large music collection and he had hifi separates. He had all sorts of gear and this was a huge influence on me. After that, I knew I didn't want a mini system or any kind of all in one unit. The separates just sounded better and, to me, and a lot of boys/men they have that certain electronics lab feel about them. You know, us guys love to unplug things, mess around with wires etc etc, doesn't matter what it looks like!
The thing is, the whole way that music is sold and listened to now has changed. If I was 14 now, I can't be sure that I wouldn't be buying an ipod dock system. Young kids probably have no idea about bit rates and compression when they download their music. They probably take it for what it is; they have nothing to compare it to, unless they have someone to show them that is.
So, what is your idea to show them? :)
Good thread this Marco. It's digressed a bit, but good thread.
I've been off the site for a while due to 'life' getting in the way so i didn't see it when it started.
Re the quote above; I see your point but there are a few caveats in there aren't there? For me, people genuinely into music will have a system other than an ipod/mp3 dock system, but I don't think lot of people are 'genuinely' into music in the way that say us lot on here are. People, ok younger people, nowadays consume music, like it's fast food. It's just there isn't it, wherever you go, blaring distortedly out of mobile phones and shops. There is no emotional connection to it.
I think people need to be more informed about what a system can do for them. When I was younger and started listening to music, I used my Dad's old music centre, one of those single unit things about 2ft wide with a record player, a cassette player and a radio. The key for me though was that I had a cousin a few years older than me and he had a large music collection and he had hifi separates. He had all sorts of gear and this was a huge influence on me. After that, I knew I didn't want a mini system or any kind of all in one unit. The separates just sounded better and, to me, and a lot of boys/men they have that certain electronics lab feel about them. You know, us guys love to unplug things, mess around with wires etc etc, doesn't matter what it looks like!
The thing is, the whole way that music is sold and listened to now has changed. If I was 14 now, I can't be sure that I wouldn't be buying an ipod dock system. Young kids probably have no idea about bit rates and compression when they download their music. They probably take it for what it is; they have nothing to compare it to, unless they have someone to show them that is.
So, what is your idea to show them? :)
I agree Webby, but I'm not sure people are any less passionate about music than the rest of us, it just manifests itself in a different way. I think it represents a cultural shift. Not many of my friends of the younger generations have any concept of a CD as a physical entity - they play music on their computers and MP3 players, and as you say, they take it for what it is. Yet they all religiously attend music festivals, the latest gigs, and many play in their own bands. Some of them are open to new ideas or suggestions for music they might not of heard, and others are perfectly happy with what they've got and seek nothing more. I guess the question of how they listen to their music runs along similar lines.
I haven't trawled through all this, but picking up on the earlier posts, an old Rega 2/R200/AT95E or NAD CD player at similar price, NAD 7020 receiver (to keep box numbers down over the identical 3020/4020) and Mission/KEF/B&W/Heybrook speakers (and similar) from the early eighties would make a wonderful cheap setup half the price of a "Zeppelin" and far better sounding. You can still plug an i-pod in via the aux inputs IMO
Rare Bird
14-11-2009, 22:57
The Heybrook 'HB-1' on 'HSB-1' Stands were amazing speakers for the low price they were, if i remember both the speakers & Stands reaped every award going back then in the '80's.
The Heybrook 'HB-1' on 'HSB-1' Stands were amazing speakers for the low price they were, if i remember both the speakers & Stands reaped every award going back then in the '80's.
I recall them as fuzzy, boxy and closed -in sounding...I wouldn't have had 'em even for free!
Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 11:56
You must have the wrang Speeka Martin ;)
Mmmm... Can't say I've ever heard what you describe from HB-1s either, Martin :scratch:
I've always rated (most) Heybrook speakers, along with their superb TT2 turntable, which I'd use anyday before an LP12.
Marco.
P.S Lee and Spursy, I'll come back to you later regarding your earlier observations :)
You must have the wrang Speeka Martin ;)
Hmm - maybe! It was along time ago - and who wants to remember the 'eighties anyway?:)
Me! It was my favourite era on a number of levels... Remember the TV progs we discussed, for starters! ;)
Marco.
Me! It was my favourite era on a number of levels... Remember the TV progs we discussed, for starters! ;)
Marco.
Yes - but all of those were made in the 'sixties and 'seventies and we watched them in the 'seventies, not the '80s...and I know you are a big fan of the '80s synth-pop scene which I hated with a passion!
It would be a dull world if we all like the same things eh?
Just looked up the Heybrook HB1 and it is not the one I am thinking of - God knows what model it was - my pal's father was a doctor and had a set up in his study for listening to opera and suchlike- we used to sneak in and play rock n roll when he went out!
It would be a dull world if we all like the same things eh?
Absolutely! :)
But some of the 80s programmes I liked were actually made in the 80s...
I thought you must've been thinking about another pair of speakers :eyebrows:
Marco.
I recall them as fuzzy, boxy and closed -in sounding...I wouldn't have had 'em even for free!
I wouldn't have said the large number of HB1's I had on dem from different batches sounded like that Macca, although we didn't like the cast-base HBS1 stands. We sold so many that Heybrook made a few batches of the original HBS1's for us.
HB1's could sound ssssssspiteful in the treble (easily seen why on measurement), but they were so forgiving otherwise, that they more than justified the awards they won IMO.
Some of the "decoupled bass-unit" KEF's sounded muffled on percussion though.
Rare Bird
15-11-2009, 21:51
Just looked up the Heybrook HB1 and it is not the one I am thinking of - God knows what model it was
These ones pictured below, construction & finish was a bit medicore but you got a lot for your money sound wise..I loved the 'HB-3' Speaker aswell
I always thought Heybrook were pants when JPW took over tho...
All the equipment crashes to the floor?
:lolsign:
Mike Reed
17-11-2009, 17:26
These ones pictured below, construction & finish was a bit medicore but you got a lot for your money sound wise..
I always thought Heybrook were pants when JPW took over tho...
Yes, they were probably the best speaker for the money and size,(although Missions were pretty good).
The speaker cones weren't that robust, either. I remember installing a private swimming pool set-up (powered by Quad 405s) with one in each corner, but had to replace a few in the following year or three. They were played loudly, I believe, on account of the incumbents being totally rat-arsed most of the time.
Great R & R speakers, however.
Didn't know they continued under JPW, though! Their own little speakers punch way above their financial weight, too!
hifi_dave
17-11-2009, 19:49
Whenever I see JPW mentioned I have a little chuckle. I'd ordered up four pairs or something of the little one (Sonata ?) and a few days later, this sodd*ng great articulated lorry pulled up outside and the driver came in enquiring if we had a forklift. Cut a long story short, there had been a mix up at the factory and our little order had been turned into a lorry load...:doh:
That one kept us laughing for days.:lolsign:
Mike Reed
17-11-2009, 19:56
You should have kept schtum!
Could I have half a ton of speakers, please ? :doh:
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